S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

[Francie]

 I don't know, killing a friend at 13, or tweaking your baby bro's penis for shits and giggles, isn't a firm foundation for future sanity.

Responding to this in the Cersei thread. 

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Thank you, I thought it had been addressed but I couldn't remember.  I wouldn't put it past the showrunners to hand-wave away that incident though.  I mean, according to GRRM, the Targs aren't immune to fire (Summerhall disaster being a good indication of that).  Dany's survival of Khal Drogo's funeral pyre was supposed to be a one-off, super magical event.  Then last season they had her do a repeat at Vaes Dothrak, so who knows.

No, they're not immune to fire and Dany does burn her hands when she takes out the lances out of Drogon in Dance. Her hands (I can't remember if it's one or both hands) are burned and blistered just like Jon's when he saves Jeor from the wight.

The whole thing at Vaes Dothrak was shortcut BS. 

Also, speaking of wights and fire, that bear should have been done when it caught fire, but instead they used dragonglass to kill it and other wights, which technically doesn't work on them. 

Until 508 happened, and we got Hardhome, season 5 was by far the worst thing ever. This season hasn't been great. There have been good moments, but for a penultimate season, it's been pretty shitty.

[WebosFritos]

10 minutes ago, Door said:

Sorry if someone's already said this but I think, upon reflection, that Sansa has sent Brienne to KL to protect Brienne. Brienne is honorable and right in the way Ned was honorable and right - and look how LF set him up! If LF mentions to you that someone owes you a debt, he's already setting you both up for a fall five or ten moves away. The very fact that LF is whispering in Sansa's ear means that she can deduce he has Brienne in play on his chessboard. Sending Brienne protects Brienne and Arya and Sansa from that particular chess move and removes a winning strategy (set up the reliably honor-blind pawn) from LF's chess board. 

Not sure what good it will do in the long run but I buy her motivation for now. 

I'm squicked out by John/Dany. Royal incest happened all the time irl and on this show, I know. But I can't get over it.

Emilia Clarke doesn't usually bother me but I was underwhelmed by her response to the death of one of her children. That really required more of a reaction that what was given. 

You're not alone, it bothers me a lot. But since they seem to be going down that road I'm trying to get used to it. I can't believe he's making me defend incest but why couldn't they be cousins, GRRM? At least they don't know that they are related and I hope they will be weirded out when they find out they are.

 

26 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I couldn't make out much from the preview, but it would be great if in the next episode, the wight demo in KL is open to the public.  People need to see what's going on for themselves.  I can't imagine Cersei would want that, however- especially since she has no regard for her people or what they think.

 

Oh yes- if Jon is going to ride a dragon, it is definitely going to be presented as a huge moment on the show.  As an aside to that, why didn't we get more reaction from Jon's crew about seeing, much less RIDING, a dragon for the first time??? I would have thought at least one of them would mention it.  No time, I guess.  Sigh.

They definitely needed to show more reactions from the crew. Tormund seemed really impressed but I was disappointed we didn't see more from Beric and especially the Hound since he completely froze when he faced the bear wight who was on fire.

[that one guy]

15 minutes ago, Francie said:

Dany, on the other hand, is flying above the battlefield. As Tyrion said, he saw arrows whiz by her.

Yeah, I think Tyrion's concerns about Dany's possible death come from watching Drogon get shot down over the Blackwater. They both survived, but there was a moment when he feared all was lost, and that's what's changed his thinking a bit. He genuinely likes her, but what he was saying when he didn't want her to fly north was, "if you get killed, all of us who have been on your side will also get killed."

Other thoughts: Jon could stay underwater for so long because he's already dead. He took a knife to the heart, the wouldn't didn't heal - this means the heard doesn't work right. Does it really beat? Does he really need to breathe? I guess Dondarrion is mostly alive, because he's able to be killed again. But I'm not sure how it works. I suspect Jon and Beric are sort of like Coldhands, but the wall doesn't stop them because they were reanimated with fire instead of ice. Can Jon have children? If they're both barren, the dynasty is truly at an end. Maybe it's time to consider a Republic?

[GrailKing]

11 hours ago, alaynestone said:

Sansan/Arya:  Ummmm, what the heck is going on?  I felt annoyed last week at what felt like forced drama, but now it's really amping up.  Essentially to the point that we are lead to believe the sisters are plotting to kill each other???  WHAT!??  I understand Arya's anger at losing her father and blaming Sansa and even thinking Sansa might be plotting against Jon, but really?  And why is Sansa voluntarily talking to Littlefinger?  I thought she understood how much of a manipulator he is.

I can only hope that it will be revealed that both girls are playing Littlefinger.  And where the hell is Bran in all of this?

Why did Sansa get a letter to go down to King's Landing/who sent it?

 

What did Sansa and LF talk about that he didn't already know? It's obvious LF already knew about the letter, Sansa knows the implication it can have on the wind vanes, she knows he's plotting, if she's falling for it, she be saying : Oh by the way, my sister gave me your dagger, we're going to kill you with it; or I'm sending Breieene  away so you can't use her, it puts me at a disadvantage, but I'm willing to chance it.

She understands full well what he is, ever since season 3, and even in books her inner self noticed his smile never touches his eyes.

[Blonde Gator]

7 minutes ago, screamin said:

Poison grows in any neglected garden (like in Harrenhal) in the form of weeds. I've seen nightshade berries growing on the grounds of a hospital (which seemed really wrong to me).

And again, every 10 year old aristocratic girl child in Westeros is aware of this exactly how? 

Arya may have been put to work being Tywin's cup bearer, but she was certainly not free to roam the ruined castle of Harrenhall.  She hadn't even heard of the faceless men at this point.  And she clearly understood her rash decision to utilize two of J'quen Hagars three gifts for personal revenge.  Too late, she realized that fact, and she could either use the third on Tywin, to the huge benefit of her family, or she could turn it on J'quen Hagar, to ensure the safe escape for herself AND her friends (who were all in danger of being tortured to death or slaughtered on a whim).   I don't get the Arya loathing.  She's now a super-psycho, but she wasn't killer enough in Harrenhall because she didn't have the wherewithal to kill Tywin herself? 

Done with the Sansa love and Arya hate.  We're just going to have to agree to disagree about Arya as well. 

[Lady Iris]

Can we just take a moment for the awesomeness that was Thoros. I really liked that guy. I knew somebody was gonna get it last night. I didn't want to see anybody go but it had to be done I suppose.

I really need to watch this ep again. So many great side convos between all the converging favorite characters.

Will this wight dragon be spitting fire or ice now? Both? Fiery ice? Icy fire? Can't wait to see.

[Constantinople]

Arya has a very selective memory about what happened when Ned was executed.  She seems to have forgotten Joffrey's words to the crowd outside the Sept of Baelor, "My mother wishes me to let Lord Eddard join The Night's Watch. Stripped of all titles and powers, he would serve the realm in permanent exile. And My Lady Sansa has begged mercy for her father"

She also seems to forgotten when Gendry told her  "But just explain it to me. He offered to kill any three people you wanted. Dead. All you had to do was give him the names. Anyone. You could have picked King Joffrey" and "You could have picked Tywin Lannister."  You know Arya, the guy who orchestrated Robb's death at the Red Wedding?  And even if Arya doesn't know that (yet), as Gendry pointed out "But you could have ended the war"

Considering that Sansa's ravengram had no effect at all and was immediately seen through by Catelyn ("It is your sister's hand, but the Queen's words"), Arya can get off her high horse.  Her actions or inactions had far more damaging effects on the Stark family than Sansa's did.  And as Sansa pointed out, the reason they have Winterfell know is because of her.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Constantinople

[FnkyChkn34]

36 minutes ago, that one guy said:

Cersei already has a wight which means she (or Qyburn) is already somewhat in league with the NK, wittingly or otherwise. But nobody in the North or Dragonstone knows this. She's always been ambitious, but re-watching previous seasons she was always complicated, she wasn't a Total Evil Psychopath until she returns from imprisonment and the Walk of Shame and learns that Myrcella is dead. Watching the scene where Jaime arrives home with the coffin on a boat, she doesn't have any lines but you can see the light go out of her eyes as her soul dies and she becomes a supervillain right there.

In the past, she did things like mentor Sansa to try to teach her to be a good Queen when the time came (after her fashion). It's been quite a character arc, and nobody's seen it all except for the audience and Jaime.

Also, if she weren't pregnant, it's reasonable to think a survivor like her would be willing to take the knee in exchange for being named Lady of the Rock, Warden of the West, and Hand of the Queen, in order to survive. From that position, she would be in a position to take the throne back from within the palace (again). But now, with the possibility of establishing a dynasty, she's more likely to try to murder everyone else ASAP to secure her legacy.

It's too dangerous for Arya to remain in Winterfell. If I wrote this show, I would tell a girl that a queen has stolen a king from the many faced god and a debt is owed, and give a girl a name to go balance the scales. A queen as the name of a king, after all, one who killed her allies and has a distressing taste for eyeliner. This would get a girl out of the house and giver her something useful to kill. Alas, I don't write this show.

Cersei has a wight?  Who or what??  Please don't tell me you're talking about the Mountain...

[Blonde Gator]

2 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Can we just take a moment for the awesomeness that was Thoros. I really liked that guy. I knew somebody was gonna get it last night. I didn't want to see anybody go but it had to be done I suppose.

I really need to watch this ep again. So many great side convos between all the converging favorite characters.

Will this wight dragon be spitting fire or ice now? Both? Fiery ice? Icy fire? Can't wait to see.

"I just got bit by a dead bear!  (Sad smile)  It's a funny old life".

RIP, Thoros.  We will miss your top knot and off-the-hook flaming sword.

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, stagmania said:

Absolutely none of this was expressed or even implied as being part of Sansa's thought process. If you want to twist logic into pretzels trying to find a way for her to be the good guy here, go for it, but you probably shouldn't expect others to agree.

Seems to me she's doing exactly what Tyrion is telling Danni to do: think like Cersei ( LF ), know how they feel, know the motives etc.

Sansa's not playing like a Stark, that's not working with someone like LF, no, 6 years with the guy she knows him, and she risk her honor and safety to take him out.

He knows her weaknesses she knows his, he knows her strengths and wants to use them against her, she knows his and wants to do the same.

None of this needs to be implied, we've seen it over the course of seven years.

Edited August 21, 2017 by GrailKing
no for know

[Pixiebomb]

We didn't see Brienne leave Winterfell yet. Hopefully she's still packing and Arya has time to catch up with her. 

Arya' story seems finished in Winterfell. There's nothing to do there but fight with Sansa and be used by LF.  She should hit the road with Brienne and Pod. I cannot wait for a Hound Arya reunion and it looks like the Hound is headed to Kings Landing. All roads lead to KL. 

[Hecate7]

11 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

I suspect Arya's giving Sansa a raft of shit because of Sansa's always present holier-than-thou attitude.  Arya's trying to take Sansa down a peg, and make Sansa understand and respect that fact that Arya is no longer a little sister to be trifled with.   Further, that Arya chose her own way, and she's never going to tolerate any flack from Sansa about doing "what's expected".    She had to put up with it from her parents, but she has put Sansa on notice not to go there.

It will be interesting to see (although I'm sure we'll have to wait a year) to see how Jon and Arya get on.  Sansa really never got on with any of her siblings, particularly the younger ones, and I think Robb was probably the only one she deigned to tolerate.  (RIP Robb and Rickon). 

None of this 20th century stuff actually applies, though. Sansa is Lady of Winterfell ruling in Jon's place. Arya can't handle that, but it's the deal. Sansa has given Arya no friction whatsoever about doing "what's expected." She hasn't tried to marry Arya off, hasn't lectured her about hair or clothes or fighting. Hasn't said a word about Arya's "way." It's Arya who's gone on the attack here, and it's completely inappropriate. It's like storming into the CEO's office because you're their younger sister who works in accounting and you're not going to be trifled with. It's thoroughly inappropriate.

Sansa didn't get on with the siblings because she didn't wear pants, and boys have to pick on girls for that. Arya not being a boy had to pick on Sansa twice as hard in order to feel like one of the boys. Sansa really didn't do anything except what she was supposed to do, unless she rolled her eyes at Arya doing things Sansa wouldn't have been allowed to do, or yelped because something got thrown at her again.

Arya is giving Sansa a raft of shit because she's always done so, it's always been the dynamic. Sansa sits pretty and tries to look okay while Arya gives her a raft of shit, and is eventually disciplined because she yelped unbecomingly. In a way, Arya is who taught Sansa how to handle the abuse she later got from everyone else. Arya was Sansa's first bully.

[VCRTracking]

Ultimately like The Defenders on Netflix, the best part of the episode is the different characters interacting and not the plot. Tormund and the Hound, Jon and Jorah, the Brotherhood and Gendry. That was great.

[Francie]

34 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

Team White Walker

Are you owning that title yourself or tagging me with that label?

Hey, at least they don't have man buns. 

[skittl3862]

13 hours ago, stagmania said:

Full disclosure: I watched the episode early, so I’ve been stewing on this stuff for a few days before re-watching tonight. On second viewing, my initial opinion hasn’t changed: it’s a very exciting episode with a lot of really cool and interesting shit going down-most of which makes little sense.

Let’s get the timeline out of the way because lololololol. Somehow, some way, in just over the time it takes for the ice around the band of brothers to re-freeze (A few hours? Half a day?), the following things happen:

• Gendry (who has never seen snow before this or been anywhere in the north but somehow finds his way straight back in a blizzard with no problems) runs to Eastwatch. Remember, they’ve been hiking from there all episode, the implication being they were hours away, but it takes him about 10 minutes to get back.
• Eastwatch sends a raven to Dragonstone (maybe ravens have learned to teleport?)
• Daenerys receives said raven, dons her best winter formal combat jacket, and heads out to fly many many miles to rescue them
• Daenerys arrives with her dragons north of the wall.

Show, that is quite enough. You have taken this joke too far.

The ridiculousness of the timeline of this episode could have been saved for me if the scene with Tyrion trying to convince Dany not to go was at the beginning of the episode instead of the middle. It would set up that the plan all along was for Dany coming to the Wall to wait for them, instead of this many experienced military commanders sitting in a room and deciding "Yes, this is a perfectly reasonable plan. 6 important characters versus a bajillion White Walkers. We will have no contingency plan. What could possibly go wrong?" We also wouldn't have this absurdity that Gendry, ravens and dragons now make better time across Westeros than the Concorde jet. Then Gendry could have taken hours to get back to the wall to draw out the tension of the lake stand-off, but not the weeks (literally) it should have taken to notify Dany and her to arrive to save them.

 

Viserion's death was tragic, but the part that really got me was that when everyone else was watching the dragon crash and die, Jorah was watching Dany. Unlike everyone else, he could pull his eyes away from witnessing this shocking, majestic scene, because he cared more about her.

[that one guy]

9 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Cersei has a wight?  Who or what??  Please don't tell me you're talking about the Mountain...

I am most certainly talking abut the Mountain. Melisadre to Thoros: "You should not have this power." One could say the same to Qyburn. There are two sources of power to raise the dead: the Lord of Light and the Night King. Does Qyburn have a third? I strongly suspect not. Anyway, "zombie" is not a word that exists in Westeros, they're called wights. So however he came to be, the Mountain is a wight. As he appears to be dead and decomposing, unlike Jon Snow, and doesn't speak, he appears very similar to the wights north of the wall. I don't think this is meant to be a coincidence.

[Bryce Lynch]

38 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Thank you, I thought it had been addressed but I couldn't remember.  I wouldn't put it past the showrunners to hand-wave away that incident though.  I mean, according to GRRM, the Targs aren't immune to fire (Summerhall disaster being a good indication of that).  Dany's survival of Khal Drogo's funeral pyre was supposed to be a one-off, super magical event.  Then last season they had her do a repeat at Vaes Dothrak, so who knows.

Dany seems totally immune to fire.  She went into the way too hot water in season 1, didn't burn her hand when she touched the hot dragon egg, survived the funeral pyre when the dragons were born and killed all the Khals by burning down the temple with them and her locked in it.  Her brother Viserys was not immune to fire.  When Drogo killed him by pouring the molten gold on his head to give him the crown he demanded, she said that he was not a dragon, because fire could not have killed a dragon.  So, apparently no all Targaryens are dragons or immune to fire.  

[WatchrTina]

6 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

I wouldn't worry about Brienne being killed off, not before she can fight some White Walkers at least. She's a badass warrior woman armed with Valyrian steal

From your mouth to D&D's ears.  I desperately want to see Brienne of Tarth is taking out a White Walker before this show is over and then I want Tormund to win her hand.  I'm going to be gutted if Brienne doesn't get a happy ending.  And yes I know that's a double-entendre.

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

I am tired of calling out the usage of warp engine in these later episodes.  I am just going to fanwank that Eastwatch is by the sea and has a lot of southbound wind to push the raven.  At least they showed that Jon & co were surrounded all night long, ie the rescue was the next day.  They could have made the dragons show up 2 minutes later :P

I'm surprised they didn't take Ravens with them, and up thread ( my first post )Dany should have went to Eastwatch and be there; just in case.

If Jon is saying " I'm asking you to trust in a stranger " she could have followed with " Then I'm flying to Eastwatch," hell she could have and should have flown them there on Targayrian Airways.

[Bannon]

I think it is pretty obvious that Sansa and Arya are going to clip LF next Sunday. It's wrtten clumsily, because the writers want to surprise the audience, but Arya turning over the dagger to her sister was a signal from Arya to Sansa that she now knows LF is trying to pit the two against each other, after being intitially taken in somewhat. She's saying to Sansa "LF had me going there for a while, but I've thought it through. Here's my weapon; you and I are good." Who know? Maybe in 6 days we'll find out Bran pulled aside at one point and told her, "Hey, my third eye has informed me that LF orchestrated the disaster which has befallen our family, and Westeros generally".

As for the rest of the show, they obviously had too much stuff to wrap up in 14 episodes, which is why we get Gendry running as fast as a snowmobile, and ravens which can fly like a fighter jet, among other snorters. I think they spent too much time in previous seasons on Ramsey/Theon torture porn, and Dany's Slaver's Bay campaign.

Oh, and I'll note again that the show never fully recovered from killing off Tywin Lannister.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Bannon
Added thought

[AuntieMame]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I'm not gonna go a thousand rounds about Arya and Sansa. After last night's episode, I really hate them both. I always had a hard time with book Sansa specifically, and now I just can't stand either one of them on the show and the Winterfell plot needs to fucking die already.

That said, D&D need to check themselves when they start talking about female power and empowering women and whatever BS they peddle that they think is "women empowerment", or any writer out there for that matter who doesn't get what it means. It goes from that Lyanna Mormont comment about fighting vs knitting, which honestly, for me, why put down women who knit and transform wool into something to wear.

Arya is threatening Sansa and Sansa is bitching Brienne out, treating her like something she stepped on and Brienne just stands there and accepts it because that seems to be the extent of her job, meanwhile we have Jon & Co, who might as well have been sitting around a table with a cold one, working out whatever issues they have because they are working towards the same goal. And in the end, these guys have respect for each other. Grudging respect, but respect nonetheless. 

But you know, women, they can't work out their problems with each other, they just bitch each out other instead because we are so unreasonable. So fuck you D&D, just fuck you. My wish is to never hear them talk about how powerful the women on the show are ever again. But I guess for them a powerful woman is one who is put in a position of power, and that's the end of that. So whatever.

The episode was a bit of a mess, I thought. The Winterfell plot made me wanna stop watching. Viserion's death was just sad, wights using chains to pull him out of the ice was exceptionally weird. Davos's adoptive sons need to stop giving  the man frights in his "old" age.

For the first time ever, someone actually came out and told Jon that he doesn't look like Ned, and that was the most shocking thing for me in the whole episode. And also weird. I was not prepared.

The CGI of the dragons unleashing their fire was very cool and Jon facing the NK was also neat.

But honestly, watching the size of that army and the sheer number of wights standing there, it doesn't seem like they had a prayer with three dragons, it seems they have even less of a prayer now with NK raising Viserion as his mount. 

I think that all of the writers for this are not only incredibly misogynistic but also completely blind when it comes to women. They don't write or see human motivations because bottom line they don't see a human being. 

The only way women are "powerful" or "good" is when they reject anything feminine and embrace the martial virtues, thus becoming pseudo-men. So boring.

Edited August 21, 2017 by AuntieMame

[stagmania]

11 minutes ago, Bannon said:

As for the rest of the show, they obviously had too much stuff to wrap up in 14 episodes, which is why we get Gendry running as fast as a snowmobile, and ravens which can fly like a fighter jet, among other snorters. I think they spent too much time in previous seasons on Ramsey/Theon torture porn, and Dany's Slaver's Bay campaign.

I'm really beginning to question the decision to wrap this up with shortened seasons. Did they fail to plan and pace their remaining plot properly? Or are they just rushing through because they're over it?

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

I want to see her wear Little Finger's face.  Which will mean he's dead.  Have her do/say something so impossibly crazy that the Vale Lords buy it.  "Lord Royce, I'm turning over my regency of Robin Arryn and the Command of ALL of the Vale Lords to you, because I have terminal cancer....So long, farewell, auf weidersein, goodbye!"  And watch him walk out of Winterfell, never to be seen again. 

And then Arya, when told what happened, says "Wait, What?".

I don't think taking LF face be an advantage for the North or the Starks; but taking Jamie's face, or Quyburn's those I can see beneficial.

LF giving away SR is way out of character, he doesn't give away his toys, unless he get's something larger .

SR and the KOTV are Sansa's play, it goes along with beating LF and will end her arc with the Vale  and move her into a role of taking care of the small folks while Jon, Bran and crew take on the battle with NK and WW; Arya could be involved also.  I think the Stark sisters after the WW will be taking on Cersei.

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

I think that all of the writers for this are not only incredibly misogynistic but also completely blind when it comes to women. They don't write or see human motivations because bottom line they don't see a woman. 

The only way women are "powerful" or "good" is when they reject anything feminine and embrace the martial virtues, this becoming pseudo-men. So boring.

I have some agreement with this, but the interaction I saw this week between Sansa and Brienne was well written, in my opinion, and portrayed Sansa in a positive light. Man or woman, there comes a time when the person in command has to declare the debate over, and sometimes it must be done coldly, so the person being informed this has no misaprehension that the debate is over. That's what I saw, and once Brienne left, we clearly saw that Sanda didn't enjoy the process. She's becoming an effective leader, and not because she's becoming more "masculine".

[Francie]

1 minute ago, stagmania said:

I'm really beginning to question the decision to wrap this up with shortened seasons. Did they fail to plan and pace their remaining plot properly? Or are they just rushing through because they're over it?

I get the sense that the show runners are infatuated with the big spectacle moments, and that characterization and more cerebral moments have fallen by the wayside. This whole season seems to revolve around three or four events:  1) the battle of the loot train; 2) the (preposterously planned) wight hunt; 3) whatever big event may happen in the finale; and, to a lesser extent: 4) Euron's sea battle.  Everything else has been filler to get to those big events.

Even the important plot point of Jon and Dany falling for each other has been so underplayed. Talisa and Robb had better build up and better scripted scenes. 

Euron has been such a bust this season. I thought he was going to be a Big Bad that out evil-ed Ramsey or Joffrey. Instead he turned out to be Jack Sparrow Light.  And even he disappeared, so there was no arc for him this season.

It feels like this entire season is about treading water for next season. 

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, Starchild said:

Wow, Littlefinger's really lucky that Arya didn't actually answer Sansa's question about where she got the letter, huh?

No need too, Sansa already knows, LF was in that room, he said the girl should be given a chance to prove her loyalty.

[MadMouse]

1 hour ago, WebosFritos said:

You're not alone, it bothers me a lot. But since they seem to be going down that road I'm trying to get used to it. I can't believe he's making me defend incest but why couldn't they be cousins, GRRM? At least they don't know that they are related and I hope they will be weirded out when they find out they are.

Why would either of them be weirded out? Dany expected to marry Viserys, Jon's Stark grandparents were cousins and there's been an uncle/niece marriage in the Stark family tree.

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

I suspect Arya's giving Sansa a raft of shit because of Sansa's always present holier-than-thou attitude.  Arya's trying to take Sansa down a peg, and make Sansa understand and respect that fact that Arya is no longer a little sister to be trifled with.   Further, that Arya chose her own way, and she's never going to tolerate any flack from Sansa about doing "what's expected".    She had to put up with it from her parents, but she has put Sansa on notice not to go there.

It will be interesting to see (although I'm sure we'll have to wait a year) to see how Jon and Arya get on.  Sansa really never got on with any of her siblings, particularly the younger ones, and I think Robb was probably the only one she deigned to tolerate.  (RIP Robb and Rickon). 

Little sis should know this is a two way street.

[Bannon]

16 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I'm really beginning to question the decision to wrap this up with shortened seasons. Did they fail to plan and pace their remaining plot properly? Or are they just rushing through because they're over it?

Yeah, I don't know. It's kind of weird.

[Bannon]

Unlike some here,I really enjoy how The Hound is written. "Look at him; he's been killed 6 times, and you don't hear him whinging" made me laugh

[Francie]

43 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

From your mouth to D&D's ears.  I desperately want to see Brienne of Tarth is taking out a White Walker before this show is over and then I want Tormund to win her hand.  I'm going to be gutted if Brienne doesn't get a happy ending.  And yes I know that's a double-entendre.

I hope Brienne finds happiness too, but not with Tormund. The one thing this show has done right is to not indulge in the idea that just because a man likes a woman, she should like him back. 

Jorah belongs in the Friendzone. Dany owes him no romantic obligations just because he likes her really, really, really, really, really, really a lot. 

And Brienne owes Tormund nothing.  She's made her revulsion of the idea pretty clear. 

I'm just waiting for the moment when Jaime and Brienne finally happen, and we see Tormund's reaction. Kristofer [sp] is wonderful at comedy. 

[WatchrTina]

6 hours ago, Ottis said:

If the whole Arya vs. Sansa thing isn't a set up of Littlefinger by one or both of the sisters, I'm going to be disappointed. The only other logical option is that Arya is essentially insane after all she has been through, which has been my theory so far. I'm still hoping for a sisters team up for the win.

I hated those scenes as much as the majority seem to have hated those scenes but I also have to recollect how grown-ass people I have known regress to a child-like state when it comes to dealing with family resentments born in childhood.  Christmas anyone?  The writers told us this was how it was going to be when they made Arya & Sansa's reunions so very cold.  "So you're the lady of Winterfell now?"  "Yes."  And of course in this episode when Arya asked about Sansa taking their parents' room Sansa could have said "I told Jon to take it.  He's our King. But he insisted I take it instead."  And with anyone but her little sister that's probably what Sansa would have said because Sansa has learned some diplomatic arts and soothing peoples feelings (and listening to their complaints) is part of the gig.  But it makes perfect sense that she wouldn't feel the need to play that role with her own sister AND that they would slip back into childhood prejudices built on Sansa's skills at being lady-like and Arya's contempt for those skills.  

Prior to this episode I had fantasized about Sansa and Arya going to sit by the Weirwood tree (where they could see anyone who might be trying to eavesdrop) and then just taking turns doing a data dump of everything that has happened to them since the last time they saw each other.  After their talk they would stand up -- each now appreciating the horror that the other has endured as well as the survival skills they have acquired -- and they would walk back into the great hall of Winterfell, determined to support one another and to use their disparate skills to the best of their ability, for the good of the family.  This is, of course, a ridiculous fantasy.  If things like that happened then half the dramatic events in this story (and in many other stories -- I'm looking at you Outlander Book 4) would never happen.  Honest misunderstandings by "good" characters are, alas, central to many stories.  And besides, this is GRRM.  We can't have nice things.

6 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Re: Benjen, I took that to mean "there's no time for me to explain how I'm a wight - sort of, but Not completely... it's complicated, and I can't ride back with you because I won't be able to pass through the Wall because I'm dead." Or something. David and Dan referred to Benjen as "Coldhands" in the Inside the Episode video. They said that he's been stuck in purgatory between life and death without knowing his purpose until he was able to help save Bran and Jon. We all learned this last season but it's too bad Jon didn't get to know it. 

Oh. My. God.  I have only NOW realized that this is the first time Jon learned that Benjen is alive (sort of).  Benjen helped Bran make it to the wall but Jon was gone by then.  So even if Bran and Meera told Dolorous Edd and the rest of the Night's Watch that Benjen was out there, Jon probably would not have heard.  Holy tragic reunions Batman!

Edited August 21, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Paradigm14]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

And again, every 10 year old aristocratic girl child in Westeros is aware of this exactly how? 

Arya may have been put to work being Tywin's cup bearer, but she was certainly not free to roam the ruined castle of Harrenhall.  She hadn't even heard of the faceless men at this point.  And she clearly understood her rash decision to utilize two of J'quen Hagars three gifts for personal revenge.  Too late, she realized that fact, and she could either use the third on Tywin, to the huge benefit of her family, or she could turn it on J'quen Hagar, to ensure the safe escape for herself AND her friends (who were all in danger of being tortured to death or slaughtered on a whim).   I don't get the Arya loathing.  She's now a super-psycho, but she wasn't killer enough in Harrenhall because she didn't have the wherewithal to kill Tywin herself? 

Done with the Sansa love and Arya hate.  We're just going to have to agree to disagree about Arya as well. 

Yes, I think it would be simple enough for an Aristocratic girl who gets in the mud and muck and runs around in nature to have been told which plants not to eat, much like we're told very young which things under the sink not to eat. It's not that hard.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

And again, every 10 year old aristocratic girl child in Westeros is aware of this exactly how? 

Arya may have been put to work being Tywin's cup bearer, but she was certainly not free to roam the ruined castle of Harrenhall.  She hadn't even heard of the faceless men at this point.  And she clearly understood her rash decision to utilize two of J'quen Hagars three gifts for personal revenge.  Too late, she realized that fact, and she could either use the third on Tywin, to the huge benefit of her family, or she could turn it on J'quen Hagar, to ensure the safe escape for herself AND her friends (who were all in danger of being tortured to death or slaughtered on a whim).   I don't get the Arya loathing.  She's now a super-psycho, but she wasn't killer enough in Harrenhall because she didn't have the wherewithal to kill Tywin herself? 

Done with the Sansa love and Arya hate.  We're just going to have to agree to disagree about Arya as well. 

Arya was a tomboy, happily ran about the fields with the servants. Any kid with any exposure to wildlife is usually told which berries shouldn't be eaten. I knew which were nightshade berries since I was a kid, and I wasn't particularly fond of hiking in the wilderness - it grew in my backyard. And Arya was a servant in Harrenhal - servants have to fetch and carry, and all castles have a vegetable garden within the walls - and if the garden were anything like the castle, it would ALSO be way too big for the castle's present needs, and half in neglect in ruin. All sorts of weeds grow there.

And no, I'm not saying that Arya SHOULD have killed Tywin and neglected to do so. No matter what you think, I don't hate Arya. Arya was a kid trying to survive, and I don't blame her for keeping her head down and making survival her priority. What I'm saying now is that Arya really should extend the same compassion to Sansa for doing exactly the same thing she was doing herself - being a kid, trying to survive and doing what little good she can on the fringes without taking too many risks.

I think it's significant that the one moment Arya looked uncertain of herself was after she lashed at Sansa for standing there and doing nothing while their father died, and Sansa pointed out that Arya had done nothing either. Sansa's point was that they BOTH were children, and both helpless...but Arya looked momentarily guilty and uncertain, before going back on the attack. IMO, she feels guilty herself about not being able to help Ned (despite the impossibility of doing so) and she's dealing with it by putting the blame on Sansa, even if it's not reasonable. Arya on some level even realizes it's not reasonable. She says herself that she knows that Jon - the one she loves and trusts most - would tell her she was wrong about Sansa, and she doesn't care. Arya's a traumatized kid who's still at some level stuck as the 10 year old watching her father die, feeling the horror and guilt, and unable to move beyond that and deal with it as an adult. One can sympathize with her lashing out, and still think it's wrong.

[Hana Chan]

6 minutes ago, Francie said:

hope Brienne finds happiness too, but not with Tormund. The one thing this show has done right is to not indulge in the idea that just because a man likes a woman, she should like him back. 

What makes me ship the two of them is that Tormund is the first man to look at Brianne as something amazing and desirable and that he wants her for exactly who she is. With pretty much any other man, they would have her in spite of who she is. I'll agree that she's under no obligation to like him back, but I've taken her reluctance to even entertain the notion because 1) he's a barbarian wildling and 2) his flirtations are a bit much and 3) she's got absolutely no clue how to deal with someone genuinely interested in her since most men treat her as some kind of oddity.

[AuntieMame]

26 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I have some agreement with this, but the interaction I saw this week between Sansa and Brienne was well written, in my opinion, and portrayed Sansa in a positive light. Man or woman, there comes a time when the person in command has to declare the debate over, and sometimes it must be done coldly, so the person being informed this has no misaprehension that the debate is over. That's what I saw, and once Brienne left, we clearly saw that Sanda didn't enjoy the process. She's becoming an effective leader, and not because she's becoming more "masculine".

Ive always thought that Sansa had the potential to have the most interesting character arc of anyone in the series. She could do what we all try to do....transform trauma and pain and circumstances into genuine knowledge, wisdom and compassion. But only if she is written well and I worry that both book and show will drop the ball.

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, that one guy said:

It's too dangerous for Arya to remain in Winterfell. If I wrote this show, I would tell a girl that a queen has stolen a king from the many faced god and a debt is owed, and give a girl a name to go balance the scales.

Ooooh.  This has given me an idea.  What if Arya hears of Brienne's trip to Kings Landing and decides to go along for the ride for this very reason.  She seems to be in a killing mood right now.

[BitterApple]

2 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

What makes me ship the two of them is that Tormund is the first man to look at Brianne as something amazing and desirable and that he wants her for exactly who she is. With pretty much any other man, they would have her in spite of who she is. I'll agree that she's under no obligation to like him back, but I've taken her reluctance to even entertain the notion because 1) he's a barbarian wildling and 2) his flirtations are a bit much and 3) she's got absolutely no clue how to deal with someone genuinely interested in her since most men treat her as some kind of oddity.

That's such a good point. All the qualities that Brienne was mocked for her entire life, Tormund sees as desirable and attractive. 

[arjumand]

7 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

I wouldn't worry about Brienne being killed off, not before she can fight some White Walkers at least. She's a badass warrior woman armed with Valyrian steal, D&D aren't going to waste such an opportunity, especially as I think her mere presence will be enough for Jaime to break away from Cersei. She can talk some sense to him, and she is a reminder that he isn't utterly friendless and Cersei isn't his only ally.

From your words to the showrunners' ears! Jaime has been so blase about everything Cersei does, this season, and then Brienne was sent to KL, literal Pit of Vipers, and I got worried.

Re. Arya's satchel of faces (shudder) - I recognized the older one as being Walder Frey (and wondered why she got that with her. Is she going to be the new host of Punk'd: Winterfell edition? "I suppose you're all wondering what I'm doing here, so far from my home, in the house of my enemies .  . . . psych! It's me, Arya!")

But the younger man - was that one of the Lannister soldiers from Episode 1? I couldn't tell, the angle was bad.

[Blonde Gator]

11 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Unlike some here,I really enjoy how The Hound is written. "Look at him; he's been killed 6 times, and you don't hear him whinging" made me laugh

I know, right?

Then the hound explains graphically, twirling his finger around and around that "your mouth's moving, and there's sound coming out, it's whinging". 

Rory McCann has turned the Hound into one of the very best characters on GOT.  Awesome.  If you ever get the chance, watch some of the old Comicon videos where he  & Maisie appear on the same panels.  They obviously have a great relationship, and are hysterical together for real.

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, henripootel said:

Also, I don't think they need Cercie, or her armies, nor is leaving her as a threat in their rear tenable.  Burn King's Landing and Cercie, then face the threat from the North.

What do they do about civilians?

What you proposed may be the most efficient way but,  SHE will be seen as a despot.

[Paradigm14]

13 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I hated those scenes as much as the majority seem to have hated those scenes but I also have to recollect how grown-ass people I have known regress to a child-like state when it comes to dealing with family resentments born in childhood.  Christmas anyone?  The writers told us this was how it was going to be when they made Arya & Sansa's reunions so very cold.  "So you're the lady of Winterfell now?"  "Yes."  And of course in this episode when Arya asked about Sansa taking their parents' room Sansa could have said "I told Jon to take it.  He's our King. But he insisted I take it instead."  And with anyone but her little sister that's probably what Sansa would have said because Sansa has learned some diplomatic arts and soothing peoples feelings (and listening to their complaints) is part of the gig.  But it makes perfect sense that she wouldn't feel the need to play that role with her own sister AND that they would slip back into childhood prejudices built on Sansa's skills at being lady-like and Arya's contempt for those skills.  

I don't know if anyone thought about it, but Sansa was raped and held in her own room. It's possible Jon didn't want to leave her in there.

As far as whether Sansa should be thanked or not, she led the effort to get Winterfell back when Jon had no direction or desire to do anything at all, and she did use all the friends at her disposal to get the Vale army there. If Sansa had not asked, very likely Winterfell would have been taken for the Crown by that same army.

[Haleth]

5 minutes ago, screamin said:

And no, I'm not saying that Arya SHOULD have killed Tywin and neglected to do so. No matter what you think, I don't hate Arya. Arya was a kid trying to survive, and I don't blame her for keeping her head down and making survival her priority. What I'm saying now is that Arya really should extend the same compassion to Sansa for doing exactly the same thing she was doing herself - being a kid, trying to survive and doing what little good she can on the fringes without taking too many risks.

Exactly.  It's not a competition to see who had to struggle more.  Admit you both had a shitty couple of years and move on.  They are both aware there are bigger problems to come.

15 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Unlike some here,I really enjoy how The Hound is written. "Look at him; he's been killed 6 times, and you don't hear him whinging" made me laugh

I was going to mention this too.  The line (and delivery) had me rolling.

[Blonde Gator]

8 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

Yes, I think it would be simple enough for an Aristocratic girl who gets in the mud and muck and runs around in nature to have been told which plants not to eat, much like we're told very young which things under the sink not to eat. It's not that hard.

Excuse me, I said I agreed to disagree with you Sansa shippers/Arya haters, and I shall.  Enjoy the rest of the series.

[Francie]

1 minute ago, AuntieMame said:

Ive always thought that Sansa had the potential to have the most interesting character arc of anyone in the series. She could do what we all try to do....transform trauma and pain and circumstances into genuine knowledge, wisdom and compassion. But only if she is written well and I worry that both book and show will drop the ball.

When I finished watching the series last summer, I had the impression that we were seeing two similar arcs, but in reverse. We were seeing the one arc of the young, silly girl with dreams of marrying a prince, and how she turned into a savvy game player.  And then we were seeing the arc of someone who had taken her lumps and certainly dished some out and had become a hardened game player, and then we might see the glimpse of a young girl she had once been. 

I do think we're seeing the evolution of Sansa. Even her earlier copying of Cersei's hair style and Jon's "you seem to respect her" comment, we see Cersei's influence.  And I don't mean that in a bad way.  It's a dark, unforgiving world and Sansa has being learning how to maneuver through it. 

I think we're supposed to be seeing her actions as a young woman finding her voice, and not as a usurper, upstart brat. But the writing simply has been as clear on these points as it was when the writers had the plot point by plot point guide of George's books. Along with his dialogue (much of it good and much of it not so good, but there is a plethora of it). 

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, that one guy said:

It was only after reading your comment that I realized what meeting she's talking about. The letter is from Dany or Tyrion, it's the big Dragonpit meeting re: the wight, and John is a dick for not telling Sansa about this plan. And the reason she hasn't heard from him is he knows damn well she's going to say, "Jon, that plan is crazy and stupid. Please don't do that. Both the Night King and Cersei want to kill us. Your plan involves walking up to both of them and provoking them. That's not a good plan." So he's avoiding her. Next thing that happens, since the Hound left before Jon returned, the Hound shows up at Winterfell and tells the Stark sisters (the only actual friends he's ever had so I'm sure he's going that way) that their brother fell through the ice and died.

Tyrion knows Sansa would never go to KL, and she doesn't need the convincing that he or Cersei needs, she's seen giants, she believes Jon, it's the wind vane lords in the North and South who needs convincing.

Sending Brieene was a dangerous move, but could be a good one, she can convince Jamie.

Edited August 21, 2017 by GrailKing

[Scaeva]

12 hours ago, Francie said:

So when I binge watched this show last summer, everyone said, "Any major character can go at any time," and "Don't get too attached." And we've made it through the penultimate show this season, and I've seen nothing but hanger ons and peons bite it. An old lady and two (presumably three) sand snakes.  A whole bunch of Frey men I'd never seen before. And Sam's dad who we've seen once or twice before and his recast brother.  Where are the stakes?  Six out of the seven Magnificent Seven made it? Seriously?  Man, this show sure has wimped out in its older age. 

They're probably saving it for the last episode when Jorah Mormont, having teleported from north of the wall for the meeting with Cersei, dies saving Dany from the assassination attempt Cersei likely has planned.

[nodorothyparker]

3 hours ago, Francie said:

I hope Brienne finds happiness too, but not with Tormund. The one thing this show has done right is to not indulge in the idea that just because a man likes a woman, she should like him back. 

Jorah belongs in the Friendzone. Dany owes him no romantic obligations just because he likes her really, really, really, really, really, really a lot. 

And Brienne owes Tormund nothing.  She's made her revulsion of the idea pretty clear. 

Exactly. Brienne's made her revulsion pretty clear.  That's it.  The end.  Meanwhile, for all his supposed great admiration of her he either couldn't be bothered to learn her name (per last episode when he was still referring to her as the big blonde woman) or doesn't think it's important enough to even rightly identify her as such.  But he can sure dudebro to the other dudebros about what great breeding stock one of the only true fighting women of the series will be for him despite the fact that she's never once given him an ounce of encouragement.  Have they even ever had a conversation?  It's completely ruined the character for me.

If the plot armor hadn't also been apparently made of Valyrian steel, he rightly should have died when the white walkers were trying to pull him under.  Before this show devolved into CGI spectacle after CGI spectacle only thinly strung together with "plot" he would have.  Now they only kill minor B characters and red shirts.

[Paradigm14]

2 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Exactly. Brienne's made her revulsion pretty clear.  That's it.  The end.  Meanwhile, for all his supposed great admiration of her he either couldn't be bothered to learn her name (per last episode when he was still referring to her as the big blonde woman) or doesn't think it's important enough to even rightly identify her as such.  But he can sure dudebro to the other dudebros about about what great breeding stock one of the only true fighting women of the series will be for him despite the fact that she's never once given him an ounce of encouragement.  Have they even ever had a conversation?  It's completely ruined the character for me.

If the plot armor hadn't also been apparently made of Valyrian steel, he rightly should have died when the white walkers were trying to pull him under.  Before this show devolved into CGI spectacle after CGI spectacle only thinly strung together with "plot" he would have.  Now they only kill minor B characters and red shirts.

Tormund may be only able to operate one head at a time. I'll excuse him that he has some trouble making his advances wanted, as the show has pointed out with practically everyone.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Paradigm14