S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

[Thinbalina]

23 minutes ago, screamin said:

Among the aristocracy in our world (and Jon and Dany are both aristocrats) uncle-niece marriages weren't that uncommon in the age of arranged marriages, for political reasons.

I know everyone keeps saying that but if incest wasn't uncommon, again, the show wouldn't make a point to mention Cersei and Jaimie regardless if they are siblings or what version of incest it is..Tormund just recently mentioned the "queen who #$@ her brother.."

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

LOL those two would actually have more chemistry than Jon and Dany.

 

I don't get the theory that Sansa and Arya are play acting to sucker Littlefinger in. If Sansa want to get rid of Littlefinger, she has the means to do so. 

she has the means, but she really doesn't have the Vale yet , she's waiting for something she can pin on him that he can't wiggle out of, proof it's got to e something tangible and can be substantiated , can't be just Bran's say so I saw it in a dream.

My only other thought is it' LF and his minion who ever it is, Cersei wants her dead, LF not necessarily wants her dead, but he's not in good graces with KL, so could LF and Cersei team up?, is Wolcum in on it?

The plan is to convince Cersei, and Southern Lords, so why try and remove Sansa  from WF unless she's mucking up someones plan, so it could be LF and Royce is Sansa's plant. 

[Tikichick]

22 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Has anyone else noticed that the eyes of the wolf's head on Longclaw changed to blue when Jon emerged from the water and grabbed it? 

Missed that detail.  Wonder what that means for someone who is literally ice and fire -- oh, and was previously resurrected to boot.  So many possibilities.

[Francie]

30 minutes ago, screamin said:

Among the aristocracy in our world (and Jon and Dany are both aristocrats) uncle-niece marriages weren't that uncommon in the age of arranged marriages, for political reasons.

The only parallel I am aware of is when Richard III's wife died and rumors sprang up that he intended to marry his niece, Elizabeth of York (his brother's daughter).  The thought was this was so repugnant and the backlash so fierce that colleagues convinced Richard III to issue a formal statement denouncing the rumor.  So going by the historical time period that George seems to be most aligning this tale with, it was not an acceptable relationship. 

Interestingly, it was the marriage of Elizabeth of York and Henry VII, and the merging of House York and House Lancaster (now called Tudor) that ended the Stark/Lannister, errr York/Lancaster feud. 

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, britesongs said:

TA about Royce et. al. I'm not sure why Sansa hasn't enlisted him or another Vale knight or lord to kill Littlefinger

I actually think he's a plant for Sansa, she doesn't trust Glover, he always seems to lead the whining crew, I don't think it's Aly Karstark, umber's too young.

So go with the premise that it is LF and he wants to get rid of Lady B, if Royce is helping her it's her trap to get him caught messing with her and the north. OR Glover's the plant and Royce and LF are working together.

D & D making it too complicated.

Edited August 22, 2017 by GrailKing

[Tikichick]

7 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Do you mean the NK has turned him or that he just wasn't ready to be the Three Eyed Raven? Because I am unsure why the perfectly adequate three eyed raven needed to be replaced. Also it is deeply plausible Bran could fail again. In the books that young lord who seems sweet dies trying to help Dany during the ambush in Meereen. He was honorable and good intentioned but not able to rise to the moment. Maybe Bran won't. 

Bran's emotional detachment causes initial concern for me.  He should have awareness of a great deal that would be of immediate interest to his two sisters who are right there at WF with him, and emotionally that would have been a priority for Bran because he loved his family.  Unless it's all happening offscreen, which I very much doubt, it's not happening.  He does seem to have an interest in speaking with Jon however.

My main concern about Bran is his apparent ability to see so very much, as well as having been touched directly by the NK.  Initially we assumed it meant the release of the Wall's magic, and perhaps it does.  I'm worried the touch is going to be used instead to provide the NK a pipeline -- which theoretically could be to virtually anything, as that's apparently what's within Bran's purview.

[paramitch]

13 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

<Snipped for emphasis> It's very soap-opera with almost all tension relying on "if you'd sit down like human beings and discuss anything, or walk and talk because it's TV, I just don't care which..." miscommunication and needlessly withheld information.  

I'm genuinely a little resentful that they've put two characters in their ancestral home, after hideous trauma, death and horror on all sides, and they have some manufactured tension because they're attempting fan service. 

They should have just had the dragon come busting out of the water, have had all the fans gasp in delight, only for him to turn towards the camera, fix us all with a blue eye and let loose a stream of blue ice death right at the camera.  Roll credits.   

That first thing is my biggest pet peeve dramatically of all time. I hate any instance in which everything would be solved by a simple, sensible conversation. So now I'm back to hoping Arya and Sansa are in fact stealthily setting up Baelish. Please God.

13 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

For real, the actor has to be classicly trained.  What a voice.  I kept wanting to hand him a skull or a leotard, or something.  He could order grilled cheese and fries at a broken down diner and it would still sound like a song.  Holy moly, the voice on that dude. 

Also, Iain Glen is quite possibly the most graceful man alive.   

Richard Dormer, Beric's actor, has the most gorgeous voice. Seriously swoonworthy. I pretty much start purring every time he talks. (Sigh, I also had this reaction to our dear departed Roose Bolton (Michael McElhatton). However I also react this way to Iain Glen's voice too. And who is also, I agree, beautiful to watch in action. I love actors with that kind of grace.

12 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

One (out of the many) frustrating things about Arya's brave stance is that for most of the series, she's actually had someone with her as a protector.  First it was Syrio, then it was Yoren, then it was Gendry, then it was Jaquen.   I understand that the point of the conversation is that Arya has become a person whittled down to one view of the world:  Seeking revenge but calling it justice.   It's her animating force.  It makes sense that she has narrowed her view down to something that paints her own actions in a tirelessly fearless way because she is so brave but she also benefited from Ned's worldview in a way that Sansa got equally ass-bitten by in her own turn. 

They were eventually changed and hardened by the reality of the world, but believing in the world of Ned helped Arya for much of her journey and was the very thing that bit Sansa in the ass so often.  

This is such a good point, and one I haven't seen expressed -- from the beginning, despite her own terrible situations and sufferings, Arya has had some kind of mentor/protector, while having to helplessly witness events she could not prevent, while Sansa has been subject to almost constant physical abuse, torture, and ultimately rape. The outcome is that each young woman is the product of her sufferings -- Sansa is determined never to be in anyone's physical power again, while Arya, fearless on that topic, is now determined to take action whenever possible, to never stand by helplessly again.

If the scenes between them had been better written -- or if, for instance, we had seen them TALK about what they had suffered, or (gods forbid!) show empathy for one another -- their relationship could be so freaking amazing and moving. What we should get is two sisters who realize how silly their past frictions were -- how important their bond is, their love and shared history and connection. I'd love to see Sansa impressed with Arya's fighting skills, or an Arya who had a realization of her sister's quiet ability to endure. I'd prefer that so much to Terminator Arya or Snooty Sansa. We'll see how it shakes out.

12 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Sansa's methods resemble more of a parliament, with her hearing feedback and input even if she doesn't like it and making decisions that will make the majority of the Winterfell guys happy. I think Arya sees this as weakness. But in the real world, I think Sansa is the only leader that modern people would tolerate. 

I thought this was interesting -- although I would have to point out that Sansa is merely following Jon's lead here in her leadership, and that if the North is democratic, Jon (and previously Robb) ushered that in with the Town Meeting format and public councils.

11 hours ago, Francie said:

I hated Book!Catelyn, but I love Michelle Fairley.  It was her scene with Jaime in season 2 that made me a fan of the show.  Catelyn made a lot of mistakes, but Michelle humanized her and made her heroine with flaws.  Because of her, Catelyn is now one of my favorite characters.  I think the lack of mention has to do with the four highest ranking writers being: male, male, male, and, oh yeah, male. 

Oh, thank goodness, I'm not alone. I know most people hate Cat (and TV Cat), but I really cared about her, and Michelle Fairley I thought was a revelation in the role. In the book, Cat was much chillier, but to me, Fairley brought a real warmth and maternal fierceness to Cat, so that even when she maddened me, I still loved and cared about her. And the gorgeous scene where Brienne pledged her service to Catelyn remains one of my all-time favorite scenes from any television show, ever. I can get teary just thinking about it.

11 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Here's the thing with Jon being submerged and having Stark blood, which seemed to help Benjen survive beyond the wall, is that saved Jon from freezing to death?  They were chipping ice off the man but he didn't become whatever version of Wight that Stark's become (Benjen is simply undead as opposed to a Wight, it seems) because Jon has already shuffled off the mortal coil once?  Those wounds suggest that he's alive but got something different going on than most living things. 

I'd find it believable if Jon has some slight supernatural hardiness against ice, and it would be an elegant counterpoint to Dany and her fire element. I do think Jon is fully alive; I thought his scars were significant, but they looked at least somewhat healed to me.

[Tikichick]

22 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Is Jon immune to fire?  Didn't he badly burn his hand on the lantern when he killed the wight in Season 1?

Does emerging from the lake and surviving the frigid temps indicate he may be immune to cold?

Now that he's died and been resurrected, presumably to be unveiled a Targaryen, will he now be immune to fire?

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I'm in the minority here, but I really liked this episode. It is one of my favorites, though, like everyone else, there are a few things there that drove me nuts.

I liked it, minus some holes with to and fro.

 I'm one who doesn't give two shits about Dragons, but I liked the Sansa and Arya stuff, though D & D making it to complicated or secretive.

This is Sansa's play show us some of her hand.

[Misplaced]

On 8/21/2017 at 8:44 AM, Cherpumple said:

I’m growing increasing nostalgic for the days when we were all eagerly awaiting a Stark reunion, because the reality has turned out to be disappointing across the board. Not “bittersweet” to use GRRM’s words, but sincerely terrible. Sansa lying to Jon, Rickon getting murdered, Bran losing his humanity, Sansa and Arya at each other’s throats, Jon and Benjen barely getting 10 seconds together. Enough! At this point I’m afraid that any Jon/Arya reunion will be too little too late. The damage has been done.

But see .... I really do think it's very George-Martin.  Of course we all look(ed) forward to a Stark reunion, because we care about the characters and the family was torn apart and normal people in a family who re-une (I know that's not a word) are actually happy to see each other.  (Mostly.)  But Martin's whole schtick is up-ending what is 'traditional' or 'normal' or 'expected' in fantasy/fiction and bringing on the Grimdark.  So it doesn't surprise me at all that the Stark family reunion has been totally de-railed by a murder, a walking breathing computer, a total lack of common sense and a deus ex machina, er, horse.   It's dark!   And depressing!  And grim!  

 

23 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

For the first time ever, someone actually came out and told Jon that he doesn't look like Ned, and that was the most shocking thing for me in the whole episode. And also weird. I was not prepared.

Actually Beric said "you don't look like your father," which I thought was a very interesting thing to say, because of course he doesn't.  And then Beric said "you must take after your mother," which I also thought was an interesting thing to say, because he does.  So I wondered if maybe Beric knew something after all.  

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Ah, yes, Lord Glover.  "...and I'll regret that to my dying day."  

Or, two months.  Whichever comes first.

I really starting to think Glover is in with LF, and  Royce is Sansa's or Arya's man ( more Sansa's I feel ), though it could be the other way around, but to me Royce has shown more honor then Glover.

There's a mole in the Eyrie, there should be one in WF to balance out the Eyrie story line.

[screamin]

21 minutes ago, Francie said:

The only parallel I am aware of is when Richard III's wife died and rumors sprang up that he intended to marry his niece, Elizabeth of York (his brother's daughter).  The thought was this was so repugnant and the backlash so fierce that colleagues convinced Richard III to issue a formal statement denouncing the rumor.  So going by the historical time period that George seems to be most aligning this tale with, it was not an acceptable relationship. 

Interestingly, it was the marriage of Elizabeth of York and Henry VII, and the merging of House York and House Lancaster (now called Tudor) that ended the Stark/Lannister, errr York/Lancaster feud. 

Check out 'avunculate marriage' on Wikipedia. There's a list. Being Wiki, I wouldn't absolutely rely on the reliability of all the names on the list, but presumably they're checkable by other means.

[Tikichick]

21 hours ago, that one guy said:

Cersei already has a wight which means she (or Qyburn) is already somewhat in league with the NK, wittingly or otherwise. But nobody in the North or Dragonstone knows this. She's always been ambitious, but re-watching previous seasons she was always complicated, she wasn't a Total Evil Psychopath until she returns from imprisonment and the Walk of Shame and learns that Myrcella is dead. Watching the scene where Jaime arrives home with the coffin on a boat, she doesn't have any lines but you can see the light go out of her eyes as her soul dies and she becomes a supervillain right there.

In the past, she did things like mentor Sansa to try to teach her to be a good Queen when the time came (after her fashion). It's been quite a character arc, and nobody's seen it all except for the audience and Jaime.

Also, if she weren't pregnant, it's reasonable to think a survivor like her would be willing to take the knee in exchange for being named Lady of the Rock, Warden of the West, and Hand of the Queen, in order to survive. From that position, she would be in a position to take the throne back from within the palace (again). But now, with the possibility of establishing a dynasty, she's more likely to try to murder everyone else ASAP to secure her legacy.

It's too dangerous for Arya to remain in Winterfell. If I wrote this show, I would tell a girl that a queen has stolen a king from the many faced god and a debt is owed, and give a girl a name to go balance the scales. A queen as the name of a king, after all, one who killed her allies and has a distressing taste for eyeliner. This would get a girl out of the house and giver her something useful to kill. Alas, I don't write this show.

I agree with a lot of what you've said about Cersei's progression, however I disagree with how you see her motivations.  The walk of shame and her confinement prior to it seemed to me to be the catalyst for her to go absolutely no holds barred in her quest for utter and complete power, never to answer to another's demands again.  Absolutely the loss of Myrcella, whom she feels was ripped from her to go to Dorne in the first place, was the absolute death of what I believe was the last part of her capable of feeling love, compassion, empathy, really any positive emotion for another human being.  I don't think she cares about this potential child for his or her own sake at all, rather her priority above all else is power and never being subject to any authority ever again.    

[GrailKing]

11 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Honestly I have grave concerns Bran isn't an ally or asset the Starks or the north can confidently rely upon.  I don't think he has much emotional attachment to anyone at this point, and I also worry what connections/networks his new status has linked him up with.

To be honest, I did not like his vision talk to Sansa, his line ' I'm sorry it HAD to happen here, in our home." just creeped me out like he set it up to happen or could have stopped it ,but chose to let it go through.

[darkestboy]

Loved that episode.

The battle scenes with the White Walkers were pretty intense and I didn't expect the Night King to actually take possession of one of the dragons either. That was certainly unexpected.

I think they definitely upped the Jon and Daenerys shipping with this one as well. Tyrion really wasn't wrong about her having a thing for Jon and she certainly proved that in this one. 

I don't think Tyrion was also wrong in wanting Dany to think ahead too.

Littlefinger driving a wedge with Sansa and Arya is frustrating but the two of them have always had deep seated issues with each other. I do think Arya went a bit too far though in this one.

I could easily watch a Tormund/Hound spin-off . Their dialogue together was absolutely hilarious. 

Can't wait for the finale, 9/10

[Haleth]

I was one who questioned where the chains came from, but I have to laugh at all of us who watched zombies drag a dead dragon out of the water and we question the implausibility of having giant chains on hand.  (Despite plot holes I did enjoy the episode.)

4 hours ago, WebosFritos said:

What was really weird about the shot is that the wolf on Longclaw has alway had black eyes, some kind of gem, and yet they were clearly white when Jon was underwater . It might not mean much but I don't think it was just reflections.

Here is a good explanation for what happened with the wolf's eyes (and a GIF to support the claim):

"Fans on Reddit stressed that Longclaw's eyes are just a transparent piece of crystal that fills out when the hand is behind the handle. So the "opened-eyes" effect is just a reflection of Jon's hand hitting the ice. What a bummer."

[Tikichick]

21 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

And again, every 10 year old aristocratic girl child in Westeros is aware of this exactly how? 

Arya may have been put to work being Tywin's cup bearer, but she was certainly not free to roam the ruined castle of Harrenhall.  She hadn't even heard of the faceless men at this point.  And she clearly understood her rash decision to utilize two of J'quen Hagars three gifts for personal revenge.  Too late, she realized that fact, and she could either use the third on Tywin, to the huge benefit of her family, or she could turn it on J'quen Hagar, to ensure the safe escape for herself AND her friends (who were all in danger of being tortured to death or slaughtered on a whim).   I don't get the Arya loathing.  She's now a super-psycho, but she wasn't killer enough in Harrenhall because she didn't have the wherewithal to kill Tywin herself? 

Done with the Sansa love and Arya hate.  We're just going to have to agree to disagree about Arya as well. 

I don't think it should be overlooked that Arya was a ten year old  aristocratic girl who grew up in WF, where they weren't exactly known for their lush gardens.  How familiar was she likely to have been with the growing of anything?

[GrailKing]

42 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Bran's emotional detachment causes initial concern for me.  He should have awareness of a great deal that would be of immediate interest to his two sisters who are right there at WF with him, and emotionally that would have been a priority for Bran because he loved his family.  Unless it's all happening offscreen, which I very much doubt, it's not happening.  He does seem to have an interest in speaking with Jon however.

I think he is working with Sansa off screen, he's her baby bro, he may be all seeing, but he needs handling a few times a day, the Maester can do much of it, but I can see them doing meals, praying etc. as a way to talk and not bring up LF's antennas. 

[Francie]

8 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I don't get your thinking. Tyrion is an idealist on the show. He is more of an opportunist in the books. But show Tyrion needs to believe that he can improve the world, even if it just improving the sewers at Casterly Rock. Dany is his vehicle to do so. I don't see her as a mother figure. I see them as colleagues. Maybe not quite equals but there is mutual respect.  That's why he is gracious and kind to Jorah. He can afford to be. Tyrion knows where he stands with Dany. 

I really am hoping Tyrion and Sansa meet again. I think they could have a great power couple marriage/alliance. And it doesn't hurt that show Tyrion looks like Peter Dinklage. He is very handsome and would respect Sansa's history.

I don't disagree with Tyrion being an idealist and his wanting to believe that he can improve the world. I think his motivation for that stems from wanting to prove to his father that he's worth something. He's valuable. He matters.  

The Dany/mother thing is a thought that just popped into my mind. What I don't see is any romantic feelings toward her by Tyrion. And, I don't see Tyrion adopting an avuncular or paternal attitude, despite that being the role most fitting to their respective ages. 

What I do see is Tyrion worried, in almost an excitable way, about the possibility of Dany's death. Granted, that could be the rational side of his brain talking. He did almost witness her death. She's flying around on giant beasts, hovering over those who want to bring her down to the ground. 

But, at the same time, there's an urgency and great concern in Tyrion that rang to me as more emotional and primal. Then, knowing his backstory -- he lost his pretty, young, blond mother in childbirth. His childbirth.  His mother who was loved by his father and siblings, who got to know her.  And Joanna was also known for being steely enough to rule Tywin at Casterly Rock.  So I can see some displacement or transference going on. 

Bottom line, I do think Tyrion is attached, and that's the familial role that seems to best suit the nature of their relationship, from Tyrion's perspective.  

Edited August 22, 2017 by Francie

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I don't think it should be overlooked that Arya was a ten year old  aristocratic girl who grew up in WF, where they weren't exactly known for their lush gardens.  How familiar was she likely to have been with the growing of anything?

they did have a glass house for growing,Maester Luwin  could have had an area for medicinal herbs?

Not that Arya know about them then.

[Francie]

54 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

Actually Beric said "you don't look like your father," which I thought was a very interesting thing to say, because of course he doesn't.  And then Beric said "you must take after your mother," which I also thought was an interesting thing to say, because he does.  So I wondered if maybe Beric knew something after all.

No. It's just shitty writing. 

I call it Machiavellian writing.  The end reveal supposedly justifies the shoehorned dialogue of the present. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Francie

[GrailKing]

24 minutes ago, Haleth said:

"Fans on Reddit stressed that Longclaw's eyes are just a transparent piece of crystal that fills out when the hand is behind the handle. So the "opened-eyes" effect is just a reflection of Jon's hand hitting the ice. What a bummer."

This is what I think too, if it was to change it should have been as soon as we saw the crown of his head; not as soon as his hand slapped the ice.

[YaddaYadda]

33 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

Actually Beric said "you don't look like your father," which I thought was a very interesting thing to say, because of course he doesn't.  And then Beric said "you must take after your mother," which I also thought was an interesting thing to say, because he does.  So I wondered if maybe Beric knew something after all.  

You're right, he said you don't look like your father, and followed by how he must look like his mother, followed by he met his father when he was Hand. That kind of implies that Beric doesn't know anything about Jon other than he is Ned Stark's bastard son and he doesn't really find he looks like him. 

I always thought that if Barristan (if he survives Meereen), or Jon Con came across Jon, they would see right through those Starks looks. I always wondered if Ned was relieved Ned that Robert didn't bring Barristan to Winterfell with him. As far as we know, he is the only person who is still alive who knew Rhaegar (almost) his entire life.

[screamin]

22 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I don't think it should be overlooked that Arya was a ten year old  aristocratic girl who grew up in WF, where they weren't exactly known for their lush gardens.  How familiar was she likely to have been with the growing of anything?

She was familiar, presumably, with the woods in the summer. Nobody deliberately grows nightshade, toadstools, and suchlike; they just spring up unwanted, so the 'lush gardens' aren't necessary (though agriculture was certainly possible around Winterfell in the warm months, so they probably HAD vegetable gardens like any other castle does.)

[Tikichick]

Just now, screamin said:

She was familiar, presumably, with the woods in the summer. Nobody deliberately grows nightshade, toadstools, and suchlike; they just spring up unwanted, so the 'lush gardens' aren't necessary (though agriculture was certainly possible around Winterfell in the warm months, so they probably HAD vegetable gardens like any other castle does.)

Sure, that's understood.  I'm merely saying that it's not a given the children of WF would have much knowledge about growing anything.  Children of the area around the Reach and Highgarden, sure.  Dornish children, sure.  Children of the Iron Islands, prospects extremely slim.  Children of Dragonstone seems a bit of a stretch also.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Sure, that's understood.  I'm merely saying that it's not a given the children of WF would have much knowledge about growing anything.  Children of the area around the Reach and Highgarden, sure.  Dornish children, sure.  Children of the Iron Islands, prospects extremely slim.  Children of Dragonstone seems a bit of a stretch also.

Why not? they had glass hot houses in WF, Sansa alone would use flowers in her hair or room.

Not knowing of poisons outside of mushrooms I would agree on at that age.

[Tikichick]

21 hours ago, stagmania said:

I'm really beginning to question the decision to wrap this up with shortened seasons. Did they fail to plan and pace their remaining plot properly? Or are they just rushing through because they're over it?

I agree.  It feels like they were given the assignment to make the banner for the pep rally and just jumped into what they wanted to start saying without any real planning of how large to make the lettering and then three-quarters of the way into the project they realized they had to include certain details in order to wind up where they planned and in order to do so they're now stuck with making the lettering ever smaller and now the audience can't read half of what it says at the end.   

[screamin]

52 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Sure, that's understood.  I'm merely saying that it's not a given the children of WF would have much knowledge about growing anything.  Children of the area around the Reach and Highgarden, sure.  Dornish children, sure.  Children of the Iron Islands, prospects extremely slim.  Children of Dragonstone seems a bit of a stretch also.

Well, IIRC, the discussion came from whether Arya would have access to poison while she was Tywin's cupbearer, and it was pointed out that nightshade and other poisons are common weeds. Arya wouldn't need to have a particular interest in growing things to know it...any sane adult or older child accompanying a small one in a stroll through the godswood or other woodsy place would at some point tell the child attracted to the berries, "Never eat those, they're poison." I was told it, and I lived in an urban environment where nightshade sprung up in any neglected ground.

And again I will restate that I don't think Arya SHOULD have poisoned Tywin; it would have undoubtedly got her killed, and I don't think kamikaze attacks for children are a good thing, and I approve that Arya was thinking of her survival first - and that Arya should really extend the same consideration to Sansa as a child (to bring it back to this episode).

Edited August 22, 2017 by screamin

[mac123x]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I don't get the theory that Sansa and Arya are play acting to sucker Littlefinger in. If Sansa want to get rid of Littlefinger, she has the means to do so. 

Based on the Inside the Episode comments (something like "Sansa has a genuine fear that Arya will try to murder her, and that fear will carry into the final episode") I don't think Sansa is play acting at all.  I'm holding out the very very (x37) slim possibility that Arya is playing them both.  I can see a confrontation where she exposes his treachery, kills him, then says to Sansa "I'm sorry I didn't tell you what I was planning, but I needed your reactions to look real".  Eyerollingly contrived, but then this entire plot thread has been.

[Inquiry]

Probably my favorite part of this episode was the Jon/Dany boat scene. It was so refreshing to see Dany not being The Queen, but a grieving mother who now realizes the man convalescing before her was right: the threat was always real. Jon (figuratively) bending the knee because Dany had earned it and her tearful gratitude was also nice to see. It showed Dany being vulnerable. Instead of thinking she deserved Jon's loyalty, she hoped she deserved it. That's huge. I also don't think it's an accident that the giant scar wound over Jon's heart was prominently featured throughout that entire scene. It's physically symbolic of Jon's selflessness and bravery (which could also be fairly construed as stupidity. Speaking of, I'm VERY glad they decided to show Dany the scars. There was talk in the spoilers thread that it wouldn't be acknowledged and I was very disappointed. As I said there, it's extremely poignant for Dany to realize that Jon took a literal knife in the heart after she just received a metaphorical one. It was just overall a very lovely, well-acted scene. Although I admittedly snickered when Kit closed his eyes to "get some rest." It looked so awkward. Like the director had just finished saying, "Close your eyes NOW, Kit!" In my head, Jon was freaking out that Dany withdrew her hand (although not all the way at first; she definitely fingertip lingered) and was like "me closing my eyes and acting like I instantly fell asleep is the quickest way to end the embarrassment I now feel." After all, we know Jon's not exactly a ladies man.  

I think the relationship feeling rushed to some is because we're only getting 7 episodes instead of 10. But, honestly, a lot of things have been rushed. Overall, I think the Jon/Dany story is probably the strongest story in Season 7 (what that says about this season, I will leave to your own judgments). 

 

Also, Jon has definitely been staring at Dany throughout the episodes. It's been subtle and the fact that Kit Harrington is a squinter doesn't help, but it's there. Off the top of my head, I can remember Jon staring at Dany in the cave (multiple times there), the beach scene right after the cave, when Dany returned from the Field of Fire 2.0, when he told the council he would lead the wight raiding party, etc. Dany's just been a lot more obvious about it, so it's weird for characters to bring up Jon's stares (Davos, Tyrion) and not hers. 

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Based on the Inside the Episode comments (something like "Sansa has a genuine fear that Arya will try to murder her, and that fear will carry into the final episode") I don't think Sansa is play acting at all.  I'm holding out the very very (x37) slim possibility that Arya is playing them both.  I can see a confrontation where she exposes his treachery, kills him, then says to Sansa "I'm sorry I didn't tell you what I was planning, but I needed your reactions to look real".  Eyerollingly contrived, but then this entire plot thread has been.

And mine was the opposite, Sansa'knows LF, she is playing both and didn't let Arya in on it for same reason she wanted Arya's anger to show through.

WRG to the KL scroll for Sansa, just spewing but: what ever: what if Sansa or Arya sent it ?

I could see Arya pilfer a seal that LF might have, or Sansa found one in LF room, then use the KL to get Lady B out of LF  bulls-eye.

[Tikichick]

20 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Exactly. Brienne's made her revulsion pretty clear.  That's it.  The end.  Meanwhile, for all his supposed great admiration of her he either couldn't be bothered to learn her name (per last episode when he was still referring to her as the big blonde woman) or doesn't think it's important enough to even rightly identify her as such.  But he can sure dudebro to the other dudebros about what great breeding stock one of the only true fighting women of the series will be for him despite the fact that she's never once given him an ounce of encouragement.  Have they even ever had a conversation?  It's completely ruined the character for me.

If the plot armor hadn't also been apparently made of Valyrian steel, he rightly should have died when the white walkers were trying to pull him under.  Before this show devolved into CGI spectacle after CGI spectacle only thinly strung together with "plot" he would have.  Now they only kill minor B characters and red shirts.

Tormund is a wildling.  I think you're greatly overstretching to hang any type of social conventions on him -- let alone enlightened, modern ones.  His entire world has known virtually no comforts, no rules, no niceties.  The fact he didn't lay eyes on Brienne and immediately attempt to drag her off and mount her amounts to accommodating civilized society for him.

I do agree I fully thought we were watching him die a very gruesome death this episode.  I however was grateful we, and he, got a reprieve. 

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I was one who questioned where the chains came from, but I have to laugh at all of us who watched zombies drag a dead dragon out of the water and we question the implausibility of having giant chains on hand.  (Despite plot holes I did enjoy the episode.)

Here is a good explanation for what happened with the wolf's eyes (and a GIF to support the claim):

"Fans on Reddit stressed that Longclaw's eyes are just a transparent piece of crystal that fills out when the hand is behind the handle. So the "opened-eyes" effect is just a reflection of Jon's hand hitting the ice. What a bummer."

Buzzfeed did a whole bit on the chains as well.  And that the wights have repeatedly been shown to be unable to swim.  So yes, while there are dragons and zombies and whatever Bran is and resurrections... we've all come to expect those things.  No one expected huge ass chains!

Also, I'm in the camera angle/drop of water camp for Longclaw.  I mentioned this above.  I watched the scene several times, and as soon as Jon throws his hand out of the water, making a decent sized splash, the camera moves at the same time.  I think it's the combo of those that just created a cool effect, but probably has no hidden meaning.

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, Inquiry said:

It was so refreshing to see Dany not being The Queen, but a grieving mother

To be honest, I don't think we've ever seen Dany this emotionally vulnerable since Khal Drogo's and her son's deaths. And even then, her grief had been tempered with rage and a hunger for vengeance. This was her really laid bare emotionally before someone else. Someone that she hadn't treated as respectfully or kindly as he probably deserved and was still willing to reach out to her. This was probably some of the most subtle, nuanced acting that Emilia and Kit have done in the show so far and it really gave the scene the emotionally weight that it deserved.

And it seemed to me that while Dany is accepting Jon bending the knee, she is viewing their relationship as more of a partnership. The way she told Jon that together they would destroy the NK's armies implied a certain equality that you don't see in her relationship with any of her other subjects. That puts him in a rather rarified, if not completely unique position.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Hana Chan

[Tikichick]

17 hours ago, KungFuBunny said:

Is it crazy for me to believe that the reason why the NK didn't kill Jon is because he recognizes him?

What if the human form of the current Night King used to be Rhaegar Targaryean? The NK in his form now always seems to be wearing armor and has a fascination with collecting little baby boys (Crastor)

IDK about him being Rhaegar, but it was clear at Hardhome he recognized something about Jon.

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

And it seemed to me that while Dany is accepting Jon bending the knee, she is viewing their relationship as more of a partnership. The way she told Jon that together they would destroy the NK's armies implied a certain equality that you don't see in her relationship with any of her other subjects. That puts him in a rather rarified, if not completely unique position.

I agree.  I think she has come to realize that she values his opinion; he knows people.  He can connect and understand commoners in a way that it seems others on her council can't.  I also think that Tyrion's revelation that Jon "loves" her but Jon never acted on it or showed her in anyway was an appeal to her.  All these other men fall over their own two feet to fawn all over her, and Jon's just like "uh, the army of zombies?  Can we do something about them, please?"

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

D & D making it too complicated.

That is not their MO.  If anything, they made everything too straightforward as soon as the show went further than the book.  I can't fathom them doing anything more complicated than Arya and Sansa worked in secret together to trap LF.  :P

[qtpye]

On 8/20/2017 at 10:12 PM, SeanC said:

I don’t know about anyone else, but my TV started to have audio problems with Arya’s dialogue at the point where she drew that knife and tried to convince Sansa that she was about to peel her face off.  I think it was probably the sound of Ned and Cat spinning in their graves.

I commented in respect of 704 that the ambush sequence is a case where the show’s plotting didn’t interfere with my enjoyment of the spectacle, and that’s generally where this show is at its best.  The wight hunt had some damn fine action sequences, but hoo boy is the plotting constantly interfering with my enjoyment of it.  Much of the discourse around this season has concerned the plausibility of travel times, etc. and how much can be inferred to have passed offscreen, but this episode snaps any plausibility in that regard, between Usain Gendry’s run back to Eastwatch, followed by the world’s fastest raven covering the better part of 2000 miles to Dragonstone, and then Dany and her dragons flying up, all the while Jon and his team are encircled on a small island, completely exposed to the elements, and waiting only for the ice to freeze again.  We’re talking a day or two, tops.  And that’s just nonsense.  And then there’s the extreme bullshit of Jon being fully submerged in freezing water and somehow not dying of hypothermia after riding for hours and hours in sub-zero temperatures.  And, for some reason, despite knowing that dragonglass insta-kills wights (see, Beric using that dagger on the polar bear) nobody in the Fellowship of the Wight is using dragonglass blades as their primary weapon.

The character interactions in the course of and after the wight hunt were good, admittedly (Jon and Dany had the most chemistry I’ve seen between them to date in their final scene).

And then there is the utter clusterfuck that is the Winterfell plot, where Arya has turned into a Sand Snake (Obarya Sand?) in her almost gleeful willingness to terrorize her own sister and blame her for being victimized by the Lannisters.  While it’s of course impossible for Sansa to have made the following rejoinder because she doesn’t know about it, I dearly wish she had said “I hear Tywin Lannister said you were a great cupbearer.”

Also, on the subject of the scene with Dany and Tyrion, the show continually talks the talk about fear being a brittle basis for power, but it never walks the walk.  It’s the exact same as with Ramsay last year, where we were told constantly that Ramsay’s cruelty and lack of self-control would be his undoing, but it never had any consequences.  How brittle is Cersei’s power, exactly?  She has effortless control of the city despite have blown up the holiest spot in it and killed numerous civilians along with the Pope, she was able to get the Tyrells’ own bannermen to switch sides, and the only defeat she’s sustained all season was because of Dany unleashing raw power at last.  If the show wants to talk about how fear isn’t sufficient, then it needs to, at some point, show the people who rule through fear experiencing blowback for it.  And that is not merely them losing in the end, which is what the writers seemed to think Ramsay’s defeat showed.

I want to marry your post...it is so spot on with everything.  Tyrion sounds so stupid because Cersai's power is greater then ever and she has even admitted to fucking her bother and carrying his child.

Edited August 23, 2017 by qtpye

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

Among the aristocracy in our world (and Jon and Dany are both aristocrats) uncle-niece marriages weren't that uncommon in the age of arranged marriages, for political reasons.

If I recall correctly, GRRM may have modeled the Targaryen marriage customs on the Ptolemic pharaohs at least in part. It was customary in certain other cultures too, but in Europe there were supposed to rules proscribing incest with close kin including 2nd or 3rd cousins... which were often circumvented by dispensations from the Pope (frequently in return for political favors or generous gifts of land to the Church). In fact, the last of the Habsburg Spanish Kings, Charles II, was so inbred that he was physically deformed, mentally delayed, infertile and died young without issue...probably for the best. 

[screamin]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

And mine was the opposite, Sansa'knows LF, she is playing both and didn't let Arya in on it for same reason she wanted Arya's anger to show through.

WRG to the KL scroll for Sansa, just spewing but: what ever: what if Sansa or Arya sent it ?

I could see Arya pilfer a seal that LF might have, or Sansa found one in LF room, then use the KL to get Lady B out of LF  bulls-eye.

Unlikely. They would have to know about a meeting that really is happening and send themselves a scroll about it, and Sansa says they haven't heard from Jon in weeks and so shouldn't know his current plans. FWIW, I think the scroll is real (maybe it's to the lords in general as well as to the kings and queens - after all, if you want the whole country to commit to a war on the undead, it's best to have as many witnesses as possible to the proof of the undead that you're going to present.)

Edited August 22, 2017 by screamin

[Francie]

16 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

If I recall correctly, GRRM may have modeled the Targaryen marriage customs on the Ptolemic pharaohs at least in part. It was customary in certain other cultures too, but in Europe there were supposed to rules proscribing incest with close kin including 2nd or 3rd cousins... which were often circumvented by dispensations from the Pope (frequently in return for political favors or generous gifts of land to the Church). In fact, the last of the Habsburg Spanish Kings, Charles II, was so inbred that he was physically deformed, mentally delayed, infertile and died young without issue...probably for the best. 

You're touching on what I've found interesting about the biological negative consequences of incest.  The show, so far, has dodged them. With Targaryens, the issue hasn't been potential physical deformities or severe mental impairments, but this "mad"  gene.  Even the Lannister children have spoken of the "flip the coin" to see if a child turns out normal or cruel.  But it's never about the actual severe birth defects.  Maybe Targaryens are different, genetically speaking. But even then, it seems a cop out to have the only issue be that child will, one day after being spoiled with great power, "go mad" and abuse that power.

[dragonsbite]

10 minutes ago, screamin said:

Unlikely. They would have to know about a meeting that really is happening and send themselves a scroll about it, and Sansa says they haven't heard from Jon in weeks and so shouldn't know his current plans. FWIW, I think the scroll is real (maybe it's to the lords in general as well as to the kings and queens - after all, if you want the whole country to commit to a war on the undead, it's best to have as many witnesses as possible to the proof of the undead that you're going to present.)

Was the scroll addressed specifically to Sansa? Or to the KitN? If it came from King's Landing and they don't know that Jon is at Dragonstone, then perhaps it was sent to whoever is leading at Winterfell, aka KitN. And with Sansa serving as the regent, she received the scroll.  With Tyrion / Dany knowing Jon is bringing the wight, why would they send an invite to WF?

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, Thinbalina said:

I know everyone keeps saying that but if incest wasn't uncommon, again, the show wouldn't make a point to mention Cersei and Jaimie regardless if they are siblings or what version of incest it is..Tormund just recently mentioned the "queen who #$@ her brother.."

Incest was common among the Targaryens.  Dany's parents were brother and sister.   Among the other houses in Westeros, this seems to be a scandalous thing.  However, I'm not sure an Avunculate marriage (marriage between uncle and niece or aunt and nephew) would be scandalous there.   These were not that uncommon in Europe in the 15th to 19th Centuries and Westersos seems a bit more licentious than Europe of that time frame.  The highest court in New York State overturned the law banning marriage between aunts/nephews, uncles/nieces 3 years ago.  so Dany and Jon could tie the knot in NY. 

[screamin]

5 minutes ago, dragonsbite said:

Was the scroll addressed specifically to Sansa? Or to the KitN? If it came from King's Landing and they don't know that Jon is at Dragonstone, then perhaps it was sent to whoever is leading at Winterfell, aka KitN. And with Sansa serving as the regent, she received the scroll.  With Tyrion / Dany knowing Jon is bringing the wight, why would they send an invite to WF?

For all we know, Tyrion gave an order to send the summons to all the high lords in the country, not just the ones who aspire to crowns. If you want the whole country on the same page about fighting zombies, it makes sense to have their leaders actually witness the zombies. The invitation may have been sent to WF through bureaucratic oversight, sending one to WF among the other high lords without realizing that Sansa is aware of the NK threat already.

Edited August 22, 2017 by screamin

[MarySNJ]

17 minutes ago, Francie said:

You're touching on what I've found interesting about the biological negative consequences of incest.  The show, so far, has dodged them. With Targaryens, the issue hasn't been potential physical deformities or severe mental impairments, but this "mad"  gene.  Even the Lannister children have spoken of the "flip the coin" to see if a child turns out normal or cruel.  But it's never about the actual severe birth defects.  Maybe Targaryens are different, genetically speaking. But even then, it seems a cop out to have the only issue be that child will, one day after being spoiled with great power, "go mad" and abuse that power.

Targaryens are different because magic. ;)

Targaryen/Valyrian blood is apparently required to raise dragons from eggs and to ride a (living, non-zombified) dragon, so yes they are different. Just as Starks, and a few assorted other First men descendants, have warging and greenseeing in their blood. 

Real world incest has real world complications and the pharaohs had their own set of genetic defects from inbreeding. So even with the differences in GRRM's fiction, I don't think incest is meant to be seen as a good thing. Joffrey was a mad king, and only a second generation incest. Apparently Rickard Stark married his first cousin as well. I'm going to assume that part of the end game will be that Jon in particular is troubled by the fact that he's fallen in love with his Aunt and possibly fathers a child on her.  Nobody lives happily ever after in the ASOIAF-verse, unless there is some supernatural purpose for Jon and Dany to be together and procreate. Given that Jon was raised from the dead, and Dany walked through flames twice and didn't burn, it does seem to be more than just about the genes. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by MarySNJ

[screamin]

I just realized that Sansa already HAS some proof of LF's treachery within reach that doesn't depend on Bran (which the other lords couldn't be expected to take seriously in a court of law). Wolkan apparently gave the letter to LF on the understanding that it was by Sansa's request. Which means that if she goes to him and asks how Arya got that letter (he's the obvious person to ask, being the one in charge of the ravenmail archives), he has no reason not to tell her that LF asked for it, saying it was on her behalf. She thus has evidence that he lied to her about it...unless of course Wolkan is already bought up completely by LF.

[WatchrTina]

3 hours ago, Francie said:

The only parallel I am aware of is when Richard III's wife died and rumors sprang up that he intended to marry his niece, Elizabeth of York (his brother's daughter).  The thought was this was so repugnant and the backlash so fierce that colleagues convinced Richard III to issue a formal statement denouncing the rumor.  So going by the historical time period that George seems to be most aligning this tale with, it was not an acceptable relationship. 

Interestingly, it was the marriage of Elizabeth of York and Henry VII, and the merging of House York and House Lancaster (now called Tudor) that ended the Stark/Lannister, errr York/Lancaster feud. 

So if the show follows history then the realm should be horrified by the notion of Dany marrying her nephew (assuming his real parentage is revealed and I assume it will be) and instead she should marry someone from the opposing camp to heal the breach.  I'm calling it now -- Dany will marry Jaime and name her nephew Jon as her heir.  This will of course be after:

• Jon claims Rheagon as his dragon and rides him into battle against the Night King and
• Jamie kills Cercie to prevent her from something heinous (probably something to claim power while Dany & Jon are off saving Westeros).

Pure speculation by me, of course, but it would work on a lot of levels.  Dany can't have children so, dynastically-speaking, she's a dead end.  Jon has to marry someone else and make Targaryan babies.

 

3 hours ago, paramitch said:

I'd find it believable if Jon has some slight supernatural hardiness against ice, and it would be an elegant counterpoint to Dany and her fire element

Oooooh that is a FABULOUS theory.  And maybe that supernatural element explains why the eyes on Longclaw went from white to black when Jon surfaced because I think that was a deliberate effect by the show-runners and not just a reflection or the impact of a drop of water hitting the frosted-over handle.  I have to assume it signals that something supernatural is going on there.

Edited August 22, 2017 by WatchrTina

[domina89]

1 hour ago, Inquiry said:

I also don't think it's an accident that the giant scar wound over Jon's heart was prominently featured throughout that entire scene. It's physically symbolic of Jon's selflessness and bravery (which could also be fairly construed as stupidity. Speaking of, I'm VERY glad they decided to show Dany the scars. There was talk in the spoilers thread that it wouldn't be acknowledged and I was very disappointed. As I said there, it's extremely poignant for Dany to realize that Jon took a literal knife in the heart after she just received a metaphorical one.

I may be tinfoiling a bit, but the focus on Jon's knife to the heart, Sansa's comment that Jon's "heart would stop" when he sees Arya again, and the fact that Dany had to devour a horse heart when pregnant with Rhaego is not sitting well with me.  All of it feels very sacrificial- maybe either Jon and/or Dany will have to metaphorically sacrifice their heart in some way.  I had the horrible thought the other day that if Dany has a child, maybe the child will have to be sacrificed, just like Craster's sons, to the NK to end the Long Night.  I don't know, but there's something about all this heart foreshadowing that feels foreboding to me.  This show is making me so paranoid...

 

53 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

And it seemed to me that while Dany is accepting Jon bending the knee, she is viewing their relationship as more of a partnership. The way she told Jon that together they would destroy the NK's armies implied a certain equality that you don't see in her relationship with any of her other subjects. That puts him in a rather rarified, if not completely unique position.

Totally agree.  I think Jon is the first true friend Dany has ever had.  She's had advisers and servants and soldiers, but never a friend on equal footing with her.  Sir Jorah is probably the closest and while I think she does love him and respect him, he has always genuflected to her, and, in the times he hasn't, she quickly put him in his place.  Tyrion isn't really her friend, either, even though he is in her inner circle because I question whether Dany completely trusts him or not.  Jon definitely stands out as a unique relationship for her because in a very short time, I sense that she respects, trusts and possibly loves him more than anyone else. 

[YaddaYadda]

11 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

And maybe that supernatural element explains why the eyes on Longclaw went from white to black when Jon surfaced because I think that was a deliberate effect by the show-runners and not just a reflection or the impact of a drop of water hitting the frosted-over handle.  I have to assume it signals that something supernatural is going on there.

Yeah, that whole eye thing turned out to be nothing. Alan Taylor wasn't even aware something happened with the eyes. 

[GrailKing]

47 minutes ago, screamin said:

Unlikely. They would have to know about a meeting that really is happening and send themselves a scroll about it, and Sansa says they haven't heard from Jon in weeks and so shouldn't know his current plans. FWIW, I think the scroll is real (maybe it's to the lords in general as well as to the kings and queens - after all, if you want the whole country to commit to a war on the undead, it's best to have as many witnesses as possible to the proof of the undead that you're going to present.)

Yeah, i'm spewing and over thinking it.

Still sticking to my Sansa set the thing off, not sure how she and Arya communicated except off screen.

Bran had to already given her info, but how they making it stick, just with Bran's visions?