S01.E08: The Defenders

[theatremouse]

On 8/20/2017 at 0:22 PM, clack said:

Part of the problem is that it was never made clear what exactly were Electra/Black Sky's powers. Was she just good at  martial arts? Or did she have superhuman strength, agility, resilience, and speed? 

I agree it's been super vague about why black sky is so special, but they have confirmed, fighting wise, at minimum good at martial arts, agility and super strength. Resilience seems probable but not definite. I'm pretty sure we saw her hit Luke and it had more of an impact than just bouncing right off him. So that seems a confirmation of the strength. I can't recall for sure but I also thought both Jessica and Luke hit Elektra and she wasn't as affected as she should've been so that also lends itself to some vague superhumanness. So she's not just an awesome ninja.

[candle96]

I was so excited when this show first previewed, and now I find myself, well, somewhat disappointed. It wasn't horrible, just not great. The whole thing felt very. . . basic. Just kind of meh, yeah, going through all the beats of a generic superhero story. I think I would've preferred a plot/storyline that took a little longer to develop or take place over a longer stretch of time. I just didn't feel particularly invested in anything. I was alternately bored and confused by the Hand's plotting. At the same time, I found the plot boring, so maybe more episodes wouldn't have worked. Evil organization with seemingly unbeatable powers wants to take down New York. But the Hand's evil and horror wasn't really fully shown. There was a lot of telling, not showing, which is the opposite of good storytelling. And even at the end I didn't entirely get Elektra's motivations. To die because she felt alive? Mm-hmm, right. Again, very generic and not well-executed. The only real moment of surprise to me was when Sigourney Weaver was killed. But even that didn't have a satisfying follow up. The next episode was our protagonists mostly hanging around the police station, wasting time.

And as someone else mentioned, too much fighting in the dark. I gave up trying to figure out who was who after awhile.

I also just could not get into the Iron Fist being so central to everything, If this show was an attempt to get more folks to tune into Iron Fist, count me out. That actor may be pretty, but he is terrible with his growly whispering delivery. 

Jessica Jones was by far the MVP, and I wish she had more of a role in this show other than just being the skeptic naysayer and occasionally kicking ass. Every time she was on screen I wished for more of her. In my fantasy world I'd love to see her snark back and forth with some of the Avengers.

Luke was more likable than previously, so I enjoyed him, too. His moments with Jessica and making fun of Danny were some of my favorites.

All that being said, if they do a season 2 of this, I'll definitely watch!

[hypnotoad]

I just cannot with this Elektra/Matt stuff. I didn't buy some great love story in DD2 and certainly didn't here either. Honestly this 'relationship' ruined DD2 for me because there is just no chemistry between these two actors - at least none that I can see. 'I know there is good in you.' Shut up Matt. Annoying.

Quote

I also just could not get into the Iron Fist being so central to everything

I didn't watch Iron Fist and this show is not going to make me try it. Danny was tiresome and stupid. I mean seriously he lights up the hand and starts lunging towards Elektra who is standing right in front of that doorway or whatever and he cannot figure out what she's doing? Danny was my least favorite part of this show.

I enjoyed Jessica and Matt together. I liked seeing Jessica and Luke again. If you are sensing a theme, you are correct. Jessica stole this show for me.

The bad guys were just meh. I mean aside from Madam Gao kind of being awesome (though not nearly as much as in DD1), what exactly was going on with The Hand? The story was just ridiculous.

The bad guy situation is really why Jessica Jones is still my favorite of these shows (though season 1 Daredevil is pretty darn close):  Kilgrave was a genuinely scary villain. He wasn't trying to rule the world, or destroy New York or find dragon bones. He was just a guy who did things to people for his own amusement and his power is really frightening. I mean compared to the endless kung foo-ing in this show.

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All that being said, if they do a season 2 of this, I'll definitely watch!

Me too, because apparently I'm an idiot and a sucker (said in Jessica's voice)!

[romantic idiot]

15 hours ago, candle96 said:

IEvil organization with seemingly unbeatable powers wants to take down New York.

I think the chilling thing was supposed to be that NY was simply collateral damage but IMO that made the stakes too big to show effectively.

[Kel Varnsen]

4 minutes ago, romantic idiot said:

I think the chilling thing was supposed to be that NY was simply collateral damage but IMO that made the stakes too big to show effectively.

The other problem is that everything the Hand did had to be in secret with only threats and speculation about how bad it might be. Because that is the only way it's The Defenders fighting them and not The Avengers (what's left of them) or Spider-Man. You have them follow through on a big threat that kills a bunch of people or destroys a bunch of property and you need to explain why Tony Stark hasn't noticed.

[VCRTracking]

My take of it is: The first half of the series(episodes 1-4)=The Avengers, the second half(episodes 5-8)=Age of Ultron*

Seriously the show kind of peaked the end of the fourth episode with Jessica throwing or pushing that car through the window of the Chinese restaurant, running over Elektra, Jessica saying "Who missed me?" and joining the others as they face the Hand. That was the "Avengers circle shot" of the show for me, not the final battle underground.

Again, I felt bad for Foggy and Karen when Matt didn't show up at the police station and then at the funeral, but then I realized they are going to be angry at him again in Daredevil season 3 when he turns up alive. "We thought you were dead! Why didn't you tell us?!" And with Foggy feeling guilty over giving Matt the suit I just am dreading him being predictably outraged. I just cannot take the two of them being on Matt's case again. If they were concerned over his relationship with Elektra, than that would be valid. Matt has a real problem and blind spot(no pun intended) with her so I would cheer on any attempt to straighten him out in that regard. They weren't though. They were giving him a hard time about being a hero and saving lives and doing good and I all I want to do is tell both of them to SFTU. None of them are doing Matt or the city any good.

 

 

 

*I like AoU but I get why a lot of people don't!

Edited August 27, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/21/2017 at 2:19 AM, VCRTracking said:

So season 3 of Daredevil is taking a bit from the "Born Again" storyline with Matt meeting his mother the nun.

Jessica wasn't really necessary to the plot but added much needed snark and humor.

Even though I knew Matt was going to come back and even though they've been annoying me with how much a drag they were, I felt for Foggy and Karen when Matt was the only one who didn't come back.

Wish we had some meaningful scene between Matt and Claire but Claire's speech to Foggy about him made me happy.

 

On 8/21/2017 at 8:08 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

It's utterly ridiculous having the cops go after them because the MCU of the movies is part of this MCU. In season one of Daredevil they referenced what happened in Avengers as "the Incident."

Within the MCU, like in the real world, people are going to react to supposed heroes in different and inconsistent ways. It's easy to picture how the average person would be supportive of a brilliant billionaire , a revived hero from WWII, a thunder god and the rest who foiled an alien invasion and a robotic uprising, yet distrustful of an alcoholic detective killer, an African-Americani cop who betrayed his badge and supposedly killed a man, and so forth. There's also a difference between the Avengers, who have some level of official government sanction and who have agreed to abide by the Sokovia Accords, and the Defenders, who have found themselves at the wrong end of the law.

It's also worth pointing out that even Cap himself at the wrong end of the law both in Winter Soldier and Civil War.

On 8/21/2017 at 9:13 PM, ketose said:

So Gao is like the middle finger of The Hand.

So, if there's still immortality juice in that cave at the bottom of the building, shouldn't Danny have used his Iron Fist to reclose that thing? Apparently, dropping a building on it couldn't even kill a lawyer with some martial arts training.

Danny is a dumbass, and doesn't really know how to use his Iron Fist. One of the most frustrating thing about both this series and Iron Fist is that Danny is basically unable to use his power when he most needed to..

But in this particular instance, Danny doesn't know how the key or the lock works, so he doesn't have a means to keep it locked.

On 8/24/2017 at 6:47 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

I have never read a comic with Misty Night but she better get a bucky arm or a regrown human arm a la Age of Ultron. Becauae if not the lack of technological consistency between movies and shows will bug me even more.

I like ninjas, but Luke Cage is really a ninja proof character.  Neither swords nor fists hurt him. He should just grapple with ninjas rather than fist fighting.  Although the thing where Danny's punches couldn't move him but Hand goons knocked him back bugged me. 

Wasn't The Black Sky first supposed to be that little kid that Stick killed? That would have made this a much crazier season. 

I imagine not everyone who loses a limb in the MCU gets a bionic replacement. Misty likely will because Danny's a billionaire.

Bulletproof doesn't mean that he can't be pushed or knocked off-balance. That said, I agree that single-combat with a Hand ninja, even a boss, should not end well for the ninja.

From what I remember of the two DD seasons, the kid Stick killed was described as the black sky. In S2, it was established that Elektra was a previous black sky who was discovered by Stick and who Stick tried to the side of good. So I think there's a bit of a retcon from little kid being described as The Black Sky, and Elektra's emergence revealing that she was just A black sky.

[Kel Varnsen]

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Bulletproof doesn't mean that he can't be pushed or knocked off-balance. That said, I agree that single-combat with a Hand ninja, even a boss, should not end well for the ninja.

I thought Luke's powers were a bit inconsistent. He was able to take regukar hits from the Immortal Iron Fist without moving so I woukd think hits from hand ninjas should have had the same results. Unless that was just another intentional way to show how Danny sucks.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I'll rationalize that if he is fighting one person and concentrating, he's less likely to get caught off-balance. It could also be that Danny is a good guy, so he wasn't using his full strength until he used the IF, whereas the Hand had no compunction about trying to hit harder.

[Chinspinner]

I am not sure if I am just suffering super-hero fatigue (I stopped watching Marvell/ DC Universe superhero films some years ago, but still found the Netflix take on the genre interesting), but I was just underwhelmed by the whole thing. JJ was the most engaging character and the scenes between Luke and Danny were fun, as were Foggy's sparse appearances; but overall I felt the series started strongly, but petered out towards the end. 

The only fight scenes I have ever enjoyed are those with DareDevil's stuntman or Colleen Wing; and when entire tracts of the show are given over to the other cast members "fighting" (with their horribly inconsistent powers), it bores me. Unfortunately this was the lion share of the latter episodes- quick cut, shaky cam fight scene after fight scene that just became tedious.   

One plus is that after strongly disliking Ironfist, I felt they fixed the character of Danny Rand in this series (although he is still useless at his role). 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Chinspinner

[Taryn74]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Danny is a dumbass, and doesn't really know how to use his Iron Fist. One of the most frustrating thing about both this series and Iron Fist is that Danny is basically unable to use his power when he most needed to.

Honestly after thinking about it for a while, I'm beginning to fanwank that Danny was never trained as a legit Iron Fist at all, but was actually trained/corrupted by the Hand for their purposes (to be the Key they needed).  Much in the same way that Stick attempted to raise Elektra (knowing she was the Black Sky) to follow the path of the Chaste rather than the Hand, so that when she came into her full powers she would already be on the side he wanted her to be on.  I'm wondering if (spoilers for the Iron Fist series)

Spoiler

Danny's friend from K'un Lun was actually supposed to be the legitimate Iron Fist instead.

 

That would possibly explain why he doesn't seem to really know much of anything about his powers, despite having been "trained" for over a decade, because the Hand would have only cared about him knowing enough of the basics to be able to power his Fist and break through the wall.  I don't know, it's just a thought.

Caveat: I know nothing about the comics other than the little bit alluded to on these boards, and I'm sure my fanwank doesn't follow the comics at all, but shows can take liberties with characters and deviate from the original storylines anyway.

[Chicago Redshirt]

^The trouble with that theory is that (presumably) the Hand has little to no sway in K'un Lun. The original people were cast out centuries ago, and there's no reason to think that among the people in K'un Lun that any of them would be Hand sympathizers, let alone  in a position to manipulate Danny's training. 

[Danny Franks]

Well, that was a bit of a mess, wasn't it? At least, everything that happened down the hole was a terrible mess, that left me annoyed and extremely disappointed.

I will never, ever be interested in long,  drawn out ninja fights between faceless mobs of bad guys and heroes. Just can't care. And when the lighting is terrible and the editing so choppy that it's impossible to even tell what's going on? I care even less. But what I did care about was what is possibly the worst musical cue I can recall in anything. When Danny does the glowy fist thing and suddenly, this rap music starts up. What was that? Completely out of keeping with the rest of the music in the show, completely out of place in the scene. I honestly thought I must have another tab open on my browser, and it had started playing a video on that.

I didn't understand Elektra or her motives. She seemed to do things because the plot required it, and that's unforgivable to me. Why did she kill Alexandra? Why did she take control of the Hand? Why did she go to Matt's apartment for comfort then invoke his name when killing Alexandra then claim she felt nothing then decide she wanted him to die for letting her die then realise she loves him and just can't fight any more? All on top of, why did the Black Sky thing not erase her previous identity, like Alexandra was sure it would?

The one fight scene I did like was Colleen vs Ring Finger ( or whichever finger he was). Because it was fairly cleanly shot, decently choreographed and it had personal stakes. I'm glad she got some hero moments of her own, after being treated as a hanger on by Luke, in particular. Her kissing Danny was a bit of a surprise, because she treated him mostly as a simple child who needed looking after. Were they involved in the Iron Fist show?

Misty gets her arm chopped off, cleanly, and the nurse on scene doesn't save the arm for possible reattachment? I guess that's just so they could nod towards Misty having a robot arm. Still, poor writing.

So Matt's pretend dead. Well okay, the path to it was dumb but I can accept it as a way to launch season 3 of Daredevil. But despite the talk, I wish they had actually made Matt's sacrifice about the city, instead of about trying to reason with his ex-girlfriend.

Karen and Foggy make me sad, and if Matt doesn't tell them both he's alive as soon as possible, I'll be pissed.

Jessica, Trish and Malcolm, on the other hand, make me smile. I'm really looking forward to Jessica Jones season 2, and her new sense of purpose.

All in all, this show felt half baked. Which is not a good feeling for something that they've supposedly been planning for three years. The writing should have been much tighter than it was, the character beats and motivations far more considered and well judged. While I did like parts of it, Marvel have shown they can do much better than this.

Final note: I was sick to death of hearing Will say "my boys" on Jessica Jones, but I would rather hear that a dozen more times than hear Danny Rand say "K'un L'un" again.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Danny Franks

[shrewd.buddha]

In the end, it felt like re-hash of Daredevil season 2 with everything focusing on Matt and Electra - - but so much of it felt like a repeat of the stuff they had already done and said. And Stick's solution to the problem was the same as what he tried with Electra. 

The last two episodes both featured extended karate fighting orgies with nameless minions which just felt like more of the same. The fighting orgy in the dark pit was sort of boring because I couldn't really tell what was happening. 

I am hoping the ending means it will be a long, long time before we have to hear about The Hand, The Black Sky,  K'un L'un, Madame Gao, and Electra. 

Jessica Jones' snark was fun. But isn't she supposed to be the the strong one and Luke Cage is the invulnerable one? It seemed as if Luke did most of the heavy lifting (bending pipes to lock doors and pulling apart walls). I also got the impression that she is only allowed one outfit to wear (despite how she mocks Matt's DD suit). 

As for Danny : You'd think the actors and writers involved with Iron Fist would be a bit annoyed at how Defenders used him as the butt of most of the jokes. But they didn't redeem him here. All of Danny's dialogue was pretty bad and his arguments made little sense. "We have do something!" (what ? ) "The Hand has to be stopped!!" (how ? ) 
And the K'un L'un thing : I don't get it. Danny never says anything nice about the it, constantly complains about their child labor laws, doesn't seem to recognize any of the dead bodies left behind after it was raided, did not appear to even bother burying them and hardly ever names anyone who raised him there - - why is he so obsessed with the place?

 It didn't help matters that not for a second did I believe that Matt Murdock was dead. I felt bad for his supporting characters, but had no doubts about his survival. At least the show didn't leave that hanging. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by shrewd.buddha

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I didn't understand Elektra or her motives. She seemed to do things because the plot required it, and that's unforgivable to me. Why did she kill Alexandra? Why did she take control of the Hand? Why did she go to Matt's apartment for comfort then invoke his name when killing Alexandra then claim she felt nothing then decide she wanted him to die for letting her die then realise she loves him and just can't fight any more? All on top of, why did the Black Sky thing not erase her previous identity, like Alexandra was sure it would?

 

Elektra was brought back from the dead and essentially brainwashed to have as little of her former personality and memories as possible, to be Alexandra's puppet. And she found out that she was going to be dependent on Alexandra for her continued survival. 

Her contact and strong connection with Matt helped awaken the personality that Alexandra tried to suppress. Alexandra didn't count on the powah of love. (yes, super cliche and annoying).

So as I see it, Elektra has a couple potential motivations for killing Alexandra:

1. Not being Alexandra's puppet/wanting to shape her own destiny

2. Revenge against Alexandra for trying to suppress Elektra's actual self.

3. Wanting to save Matt from whatever the Hand had planned for the Defenders

4. Wanting to gain power. I mean, if you could with a simple move go from being a lackey to being in command of a powerful criminal organization, why wouldn't you?

5 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Jessica Jones' snark was fun. But isn't she supposed to be the the strong one and Luke Cage is the invulnerable one? It seemed as if Luke did most of the heavy lifting (bending pipes to lock doors and pulling apart walls).   

Luke is both super-strong and normal-bullet proof. How strong has been somewhat plot-dependent. 

Jessica is strong and has the ability to fly/jump great distances.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Chicago Redshirt

[Loandbehold]

JJ also held onto the elevator until Luke and Danny could get out of it. I don't know if Luke would have been able to do the same, although he might have been able to catch the elevator at the bottom of the pit. Or, at least have it bounce off of him. 

I do agree that JJ should have had more to do. I love her snark, but this series spent most of its time on Matt and Danny. If there's a second Defenders season, they better give her more to do. 

[ohjoy]

It wasn't shown clearly at all, but I'm pretty sure JJ also had to jump/fly up the elevator shaft to catch the elevator cable when it broke - she was a good distance from the elevator when Luke and Danny realized she was holding the cable. But yeah, we definitely needed a better show of her abilities. Although her superhero snark was absolutely on point. 

[Sakura12]

I wish they had shown that Jessica can fly/jump really high to show that she has different powers than Luke.. I know they did that elevator jump, but that didn't really show what she can do.  I would love to have seen Danny's reaction to seeing Jessica actually fly. 

[AudienceofOne]

13 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I would love to have seen Danny's reaction to seeing Jessica actually fly. 

It's funny because even though Danny remains a juvenile "thundering dumbass" who's yet to turn 11, I do like his role in the text for this show. Far more than Luke and Matt and the goddamn "hand" (no fisting jokes, please).

Apart from the awful episode where he threw a tantrum and Stick tied him up, he was the glue that brought everyone together. From his wonderful "our Jessica" line to his tendency to listen to everyone in this completely earnest childlike way, he was the lynchpin of the group.

[Delphi]

13 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

 

Apart from the awful episode where he threw a tantrum and Stick tied him up, he was the glue that brought everyone together. From his wonderful "our Jessica" line to his tendency to listen to everyone in this completely earnest childlike way, he was the lynchpin of the group.

I enjoyed that about Danny too,  and honestly it makes sense that he would be the one to try to keep the group together.   Despite both him and Jessica losing their families,  Jessica has for the most part moved on from her previous life.   She's built her new family with Trish and to a lesser extent Malcolm.   Danny on the other hand (ugh hand,  sorry) lost his family and was promptly separated from humanity for years.   The first thing he tried to do coming back was rebuild the family he thought he had with Joy and Ward and that blew up in his face.  Then he found Colleen and Claire.  Which kind of helped but not so perfectly.   Then he met all these other superpowered outcasts, for him that's perfect.   Ready made fake family for a lost orphan boy.

[loki567]

Well, this whole thing was a giant pile of meh. Altogether I'd say that about 2.5 seasons (Daredevil S1, the Punisher half of S2, S1 Jessica Jones) were actually good so I'd give the whole Marvel Netflix Universe a failing grade. People knock the MCU for being too jokey but for comparison sake, most of these shows have been utterly grim and lifeless. Considering The Defenders is what they've been building to for three years, I surprised how by-the-numbers and hastily put together the whole thing feels.  No personality in virtually anything, no joy in bringing all these characters together. 

And good lord, Finn Jones is terrible. Worst lead performance I've seen from a television show in a long time. I couldn't get through two episodes of Iron Fist because of him and he hasn't gotten an inch better since. I know there was some controversy on whether or not they should have made the character Asian, but why in the world they cast this particular white guy I'll never know. 

[KatyCole]

20 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I wish they had shown that Jessica can fly/jump really high to show that she has different powers than Luke.. I know they did that elevator jump, but that didn't really show what she can do.  I would love to have seen Danny's reaction to seeing Jessica actually fly. 

You're spot on here. I felt like Jessica, Luke, and Danny's powers were ubiquitous. I mean they pointed out Luke's bulletproof nature quite well, but that climactic fight scene just seemed like I was watching the Ninja Turtles without their unique weapons battle foot soldiers.

 

Now, looking forward to the Punisher ...

[shrewd.buddha]

4 hours ago, loki567 said:

Considering The Defenders is what they've been building to for three years, I surprised how by-the-numbers and hastily put together the whole thing feels. 

I have to agree. This didn't seem like a very polished result - so many little misfires with characterization and details. After the lackluster-ness of  Iron Fist and now this,  I'm beginning to worry that Netflix isn't giving their Marvel shows their best effort. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 8/26/2017 at 9:52 PM, candle96 said:

I was so excited when this show first previewed, and now I find myself, well, somewhat disappointed. It wasn't horrible, just not great. The whole thing felt very. . . basic. Just kind of meh, yeah, going through all the beats of a generic superhero story. I think I would've preferred a plot/storyline that took a little longer to develop or take place over a longer stretch of time. I just didn't feel particularly invested in anything. I was alternately bored and confused by the Hand's plotting. At the same time, I found the plot boring, so maybe more episodes wouldn't have worked. Evil organization with seemingly unbeatable powers wants to take down New York. But the Hand's evil and horror wasn't really fully shown. There was a lot of telling, not showing, which is the opposite of good storytelling. And even at the end I didn't entirely get Elektra's motivations. To die because she felt alive? Mm-hmm, right. Again, very generic and not well-executed. The only real moment of surprise to me was when Sigourney Weaver was killed. But even that didn't have a satisfying follow up. The next episode was our protagonists mostly hanging around the police station, wasting time.

 

That's sort of where I am at too. I mean the show wasn't bad, just a very simplistic super hero type of story. Which is too bad because I thought the whole point of the Netflix area of the MCU was they could tell smart, complex stories for adult audiences. That is certainly what DD and Jessica Jones were.

Speaking of adult audiences, I really found the fights in this show to be PG-13 where as the fights in Daredevil where much more brutal and certainly R rated.

4 hours ago, KatyCole said:

Now, looking forward to the Punisher ...

I'll be there for the punisher, which I hope is good, especially since I have always found the character super one note. But there is no way I will be checking out Inhumans. If Defenders had been the best show ever than maybe, but not after this.

[blueray]

5 hours ago, KatyCole said:

You're spot on here. I felt like Jessica, Luke, and Danny's powers were ubiquitous. I mean they pointed out Luke's bulletproof nature quite well, but that climactic fight scene just seemed like I was watching the Ninja Turtles without their unique weapons battle foot soldiers.

 

Now, looking forward to the Punisher ...

I agree, Luke and Jessica seem to have similar powers to me. I've never read the comic books so just basing it of the show. They only one with different powers was Matt. It was clear in the show, that he was able to cool things that the rest couldn't do. But it was never the other way around. Sure he isn't super strong, but he makes up for it in other ways.

[Chicago Redshirt]

31 minutes ago, blueray said:

I agree, Luke and Jessica seem to have similar powers to me. 

Man, you have super-strength too??!??! :)

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

That's sort of where I am at too. I mean the show wasn't bad, just a very simplistic super hero type of story. Which is too bad because I thought the whole point of the Netflix area of the MCU was they could tell smart, complex stories for adult audiences. That is certainly what DD and Jessica Jones were.

Speaking of adult audiences, I really found the fights in this show to be PG-13 where as the fights in Daredevil where much more brutal and certainly R rated.

I'll be there for the punisher, which I hope is good, especially since I have always found the character super one note. But there is no way I will be checking out Inhumans. If Defenders had been the best show ever than maybe, but not after this.

To each his own, but I don't think the quality of the Defenders (or lack thereof) bears much relationship to Inhumans. Different writers, different characters, different networks, different aesthetics....

[Delphi]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Man, you have super-strength too??!??! :)

To each his own, but I don't think the quality of the Defenders (or lack thereof) bears much relationship to Inhumans. Different writers, different characters, different networks, different aesthetics....

That speaks volumes.   I previously already trusted the majority of the writers and creators on the Netflix shows.   They may have bended the earned praise,  but I'm to holding out on the inhumans.

[Kel Varnsen]

14 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

To each his own, but I don't think the quality of the Defenders (or lack thereof) bears much relationship to Inhumans. Different writers, different characters, different networks, different aesthetics....

It is still the same studio/production company, same people at the top approving scripts and signing cheques. It is not like Marvel is known for handing over a ton of freedom to creative types. If Defenders was decent but didn't live up to its potential what hope do future MCU shows have? Especially Inhumans that already looks crappy.

[JTMacc99]

On 8/19/2017 at 8:54 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

But really, Danny is a dumbass and the weakest link. Maybe this might not be the case if a stronger or better actor had been cast?

No. He is written to be this way and acted as such. 

When Elektra guided the fist into the wall, I heard the line "you are the dumbest Iron Fist yet" in my head. 

He is supposed to be this way. 

[Sakura12]

During the scene where Matt was running to stop Elektra from killing Stick, they should've had Jessica fly up and crash through the window. Or jump up with a ninja and drop them on the ground. Something to show she has different powers than Luke. She's also supposed to stronger than Luke since on her show she picked him up and carried him. 

[Chinspinner]

On ‎31‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 4:16 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

It is still the same studio/production company, same people at the top approving scripts and signing cheques. It is not like Marvel is known for handing over a ton of freedom to creative types. If Defenders was decent but didn't live up to its potential what hope do future MCU shows have? Especially Inhumans that already looks crappy.

The best description I have seen of Inhumans is that it looks like a porn parody. 

With regard to Netflix MCU shows, I broadly rate them in the following order, from good to bad: -

1) DD1

2) JJ

3) DD2

4) LC

5) Defenders

6) IF

The first 3 were good and the last 3 were disappointing. My concern is that the disappointing series are also the most recent releases, which suggests a general slide in quality or a deficit of ideas. Perhaps there just is not that much you can do in this universe and they are already creatively bereft. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Chinspinner

[hincandenza]

1 hour ago, Chinspinner said:

The best description I have seen of Inhumans is that it looks like a porn parody. 

With regard to Netflix MCU shows, I broadly rate them in the following order, from good to bad: -

1) DD1

2) JJ

3) DD2

4) LC

5) Defenders

6) IF

The first 3 were good and the last 3 were disappointing. My concern is that the disappointing series are also the most recent releases, which suggests a general slide in quality or a deficit of ideas. Perhaps there just is not that much you can do in this universe and they are already creatively bereft. 

Ouch!  I haven't even heard of the Inhumans, but lines like that aren't inspiring me to go seek it out.

That's an interesting ranking, as it's almost exactly what I'd have done (except I think I actually liked IF more than Defenders), and if I'm not mistaken is basically the order they came out in.  That honestly shows a fairly steady decline, from the sort of freshly grim take on Daredevil with the always incredible Vincent Dinofrio, to the chilling (if a touch long at 13 episodes) and absorbing Jessica Jones, to a the-Punisher-part-was-great DD2, etc, etc.  Then we get the weird second-half villain of Luke Cage, the meandering IF, and the collective "meh" of The Defenders.

I think again it goes back to each subsequent series being more comic book-y, less grounded and realistic.  For whatever reason, possibly their own massive data analysis, they kept tweaking each new 'season' to be more of one type of show.  Yet as others have pointed out, when you have to dance this line between the standard "each season's 'new big bad guy' is even more dangerous than the last!" trope and knowing that anything too big and too bad would make no sense in a shared universe with The Avengers... well, that tension can't help but snap and make everything seem silly.  I wonder if it's one of those amplifying problems; maybe the ratings start slipping because of the MFOOCs (montage fights of no consequence), and the powers-that-be decide "Oh man, we better amp up the fight sequences, or people will stop watching!  Quick, cut all the boring character development parts out of the script, and get the fight choreographers to give us another 3.5 minutes an episode".  Ratings continue to fall, and they keep doubling down on a failing strategy.

 

If only they'd stuck with their roots and stayed on more street-level, plausible crime- like the first half of Luke Cage with Cottonmouth, or the parts of "The Hand" in IF that did current-events-worthy activities like money laundering and exploiting live-saving pharmaceuticals for profit- in other words, the kinds of crimes the Avengers wouldn't get out of bed for.  The Netflix MCU could have maintained the intriguing look into social, class, and economic issues of the real world that put them on the map with DD and JJ, while adding a little salsa in the not-overly-superpowered heroes and villains.  

I think these days, people's Mitty-esque fantasies are less about punching ninjas who work for secretive Illuminati groups, than they are about confronting and dismantling the wealthy, corrupt architects of so much of the wickedness of the world.  But that's the sad part of this steady decline.  I know I had big hopes after the first couple of series that this was going to end up with a "Dark Knight" caliber Marvel TV series.  Instead, well... rap music playing while four manic depressives fight ninjas among magical ancient dinosaur bones in a dimly lit secret cave under New York City.  

That entire last sentence is something that no one who isn't Michael Bay should ever have to type.

[Chinspinner]

20 minutes ago, hincandenza said:

*Snip*

I think these days, people's Mitty-esque fantasies are less about punching ninjas who work for secretive Illuminati groups, than they are about confronting and dismantling the wealthy, corrupt architects of so much of the wickedness of the world.  But that's the sad part of this steady decline.  I know I had big hopes after the first couple of series that this was going to end up with a "Dark Knight" caliber Marvel TV series.  Instead, well... rap music playing while four manic depressives fight ninjas among magical ancient dinosaur bones in a dimly lit secret cave under New York City.  

That entire last sentence is something that no one who isn't Michael Bay should ever have to type.

I think you nailed it here. This was supposed to be an adult-orientated take on the MCU; and an adult perspective is less likely to revolve around punching playground bullies in the face, and more likely to revolve around dismantling the corrupt systems, the rigged playing field and the ingrained wealth divide that sees them in eternal debt slavery. The Netflix series lost this focus. 

DD1 worked on both levels, mainly because they had superb stuntmen and fight choreographers, which made their fight scenes visceral and balletic. JJ could not rely on the fight scenes so went with the psychological, which also worked well (but as you say it should have been cut by three episodes). 

Unfortunately now we just have the overlong, quick-cut, shaky-cam dismantling of hoards of red-shirts, using inconsistent powers, which is boring.  

Edited September 1, 2017 by Chinspinner

[loki567]

The guy who was the showrunner for Daredevil S1 was Steven S. DeKnight, the writer behind the great Spartacus series. He left after season one to do a space Dracula series at Starz that I don't think got picked up. For Iron Fist, the showrunner was Scott Buck, the guy behind the greatly maligned final season of Dexter. He apparently had no interest in the show and did as a favor to Joseph Loeb, the head of Marvel television. And now he's the showrunner on The Inhumans, which is getting worse reviews than Iron Fist.

So basically the writing talent on the Marvel series is declining and a big part of that seems to because the writers have no passion or enthusiasm for the subject matter. 

[festivus]

13 hours ago, loki567 said:

The guy who was the showrunner for Daredevil S1 was Steven S. DeKnight, the writer behind the great Spartacus series. He left after season one to do a space Dracula series at Starz that I don't think got picked up. For Iron Fist, the showrunner was Scott Buck, the guy behind the greatly maligned final season of Dexter. He apparently had no interest in the show and did as a favor to Joseph Loeb, the head of Marvel television. And now he's the showrunner on The Inhumans, which is getting worse reviews than Iron Fist.

Well that settles that. I won't be watching Inhumans. 

I'm left with an overall meh feeling on The Defenders. It could/should have been so much better.  Parts I enjoyed were Jessica, Luke, Claire and Colleen. Jessica is my favorite and I liked Luke in this because I'm just tired of everyone's angst. At least Luke seems to have his shit together and he made Danny tolerable in their scenes. The really need to combine those two shows, I like Luke, Danny, Claire and Colleen together.  

[Chinspinner]

7 minutes ago, festivus said:

Well that settles that. I won't be watching Inhumans. 

I'm left with an overall meh feeling on The Defenders. It could/should have been so much better.  Parts I enjoyed were Jessica, Luke, Claire and Colleen. Jessica is my favorite and I liked Luke in this because I'm just tired of everyone's angst. At least Luke seems to have his shit together and he made Danny tolerable in their scenes. The really need to combine those two shows, I like Luke, Danny, Claire and Colleen together.  

Yes, the angst is tedious. They are all like the teenage version of myself, fucking tedious. 

[blueray]

If I were to rank the shows from best to worst. I'd say:

1. Daredevil season 1

2. Daredevil season 2

3. Jessica Jones: which is saying a lot since I never finished it but it was well written and acted.

4. Defenders: there was some good things like the scenes with them together. I generally liked this.

gap

5. Luke Cage: slightly edges out as it had some good episodes in the middle. The pilot was boring than it fell apart mostly in the end.

6. Iron Fist: As someone who hasn't read the comic books, I feel like an origin story was needed here. They didn't make me care about Kal yon (or however it's spelled). They needed to show me why this place matters to him and a lot less of the boardroom scenes. If I wanted to watch a corporate show I would be. Plus he was winny and immature. I did finish the show and wanted to like it, but I can't say it was good by any means. There were some redeeming qualities. Hopefully this could be fixed next season.

[JTMacc99]

On 8/19/2017 at 3:18 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Damn, Matt!  I get Elektra is hot and all, but is she worth getting crushed by an entire building for?!

Sigh. I fell for an Elektra once. I have to admit that I was kind of sad how much I identified with Matthew's decisions this series. "I can save her if she'll just listen!"  

It is a real emotional hole that perfectly reasonable people can fall down. 

[kdm07]

After all of the build up and hype, I wish they had just given us Jessica Jones Season 2 instead of this. The Defenders was bland to me and that's one thing I can't have in my comic book shows. The minute I realised that the plot was going to be centred around Danny Rand/Iron Fist I thought "Oh no" and nothing about the following episodes made me think it was a smart idea at all. I don't know if it's the actor or the writing but this incarnation of Iron Fist sucks! The best thing about the show was Jessica & Matt's relationship but everything else was just meh to boring for me.

The heroes: Jessica is still the best for me (they also seriously downplayed her strength in this). Matt was great when he didn't have his Elektra blinkers on. Luke Cage was fine and you already know how I feel about Danny Rand.

The villains: Alexandria started out just fine but then we were always told how dangerous she was and yet we hardly get to see it. Then she gets offed by Elektra who was just as personality-derived here as she was in Daredevil.

The sidekicks: Karen needs to go and never come back. Not nearly enough Trish and/or Malcom but we got plenty of Karen *rolls eyes*. Claire was not as front and centre as I thought she'd be considering she knows almost everyone.

*My rankings for the Netflix Marvel shows: Jessica Jones> Daredevil 1> first half of Luke Cage> Daredevil 2> second half of Luke Cage> Defenders. I won't be watching this again.

*Haven't watched Iron Fist.

Edited September 3, 2017 by kdm07

[Kel Varnsen]

On 01/09/2017 at 3:35 AM, Chinspinner said:

I think you nailed it here. This was supposed to be an adult-orientated take on the MCU; and an adult perspective is less likely to revolve around punching playground bullies in the face, and more likely to revolve around dismantling the corrupt systems, the rigged playing field and the ingrained wealth divide that sees them in eternal debt slavery. The Netflix series lost this focus. 

I think you might have nailed the issues these series have. The bits of Luke Cage that worked were when it was him vs the corrupt system and public opinion (things you can't just punch). But when it became him punching his evil-jealous half brother wearing an off brand laser tag suit it turned to crap. This was just too much straight fighting evil ninjas with a vague plan. I didn't even mind the evil ninjas in Daredevil season 2 because they made it a lot more personal, and threatening (and the fights were much cooler).

I honestly still don't know what would have happened to NY if they hadn't blown up the building. I mean in Daredevil s2 Nobu had the dragon magic immortality but Stick was still able to chop his head off. So would the Defenders not been able to beat the Hand like a week later ? 

[jeansheridan]

On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 11:02 PM, Rascotes said:

want the audience to get behind him, you have to actually make him exceptional or at the very least good at something

For the most part he is exceptionally  well intentioned. He is never self serving or selfish. And he is a billionaire.  He can buy their gadgets. When he ditches the angst (there was angst on IF) and just is, I find him charming. I don't need him to be the best. I need him to be delighted by Matt's gadgets, Luke's size, Jessica's awkward violence. Plus Colleen likes him and I want Colleen to be happy.

[Loandbehold]

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

For the most part he is exceptionally  well intentioned. He is never self serving or selfish. And he is a billionaire.  He can buy their gadgets. When he ditches the angst (there was angst on IF) and just is, I find him charming. I don't need him to be the best. I need him to be delighted by Matt's gadgets, Luke's size, Jessica's awkward violence. Plus Colleen likes him and I want Colleen to be happy.

If that's the case, then Danny shouldn't be one of the defenders. Let Colleen be the 4th one. Danny could then be a supporting character like Foggy, Trish, Claire, et. al. He can use his billions to supply gadgets and, hell, a secret HQ for the others. As it was, I found him bearable when he was interacting w/ Luke, but that's about it. 

[jeansheridan]

Overall a disappointment, mostly because of The Hand. DD1 and JJ worked because they had specific villains with depth.

Also other than the hallway fight and maybe the Colleen/Missy/Claire fight the fight choreography was terrible. DD was so very good. IF had one or two, mostly involving Colleen, and JJ had one or two smart ones.

When a fight has stakes, when people can get hurt like Missy, it makes it interesting. 

Regarding Matt and Elektra I feel a ton of chemistry. She makes him sexy. But everyone's mileage varies.

I would not mind a Matt/Jessica pairing but it is also refreshing to have her have no romance. I still think she and Charlie Cox look very compatible on screen. And I wouldn't mind Matt giving her some fighting tips. Jessica is all blunt force.

If they get a second season, we just need a more grounded big bad, perhaps with super powers.

On 8/26/2017 at 3:39 PM, moonshine71 said:

That's a nod to the traditional colours of their costumes.

We were kind of cracking up seeing Matt in costume versus the others. But Jessica isn't bullet or sword proof and some body armor wouldn't hurt. Just like in DD1 when Claire dryly suggests he needs something better than sweats when he fights. 

And in terms of costuming, nothing beats Elektra's awesome long coat. The actress and her stunt double swished that coat better than Sherlock Holmes. 

I am also fond of Madame Gao's grandma outfits. That actress is 73 and I find her delightful and I am delighted she has been featured so heavily in most of the series. 

[moonshine71]

7 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

 

Regarding Matt and Elektra I feel a ton of chemistry. She makes him sexy. But everyone's mileage varies.

I would not mind a Matt/Jessica pairing but it is also refreshing to have her have no romance. I still think she and Charlie Cox look very compatible on screen. And I wouldn't mind Matt giving her some fighting tips. Jessica is all blunt force.

I've liked Charlie Cox with all of his romantic interests, they all seem to work in there own way, I could see him and Ritter making it interesting.

But, my god, can they just let Matt get laid? He's had three love interests in the past 2.5 years(if the shows are maintaining some semblance of real time, as I believe it seems) and hasn't gotten past first base(the Electra scene was a flashback from who knows how many years before).  No wonder he's so uptight sometimes. All the other heroes are getting some, Luke is banging everyone.

[benteen]

I really enjoyed the series.  I loved seeing the four of them get together and interact with each other.  Daredevil has always been my favorite of the shows.  He's one of my favorite characters and I've been waiting for a DD TV show since The Trial of the Incredible Hulk.  He's still my favorite although I love Jessica Jones too.  Mike Colter definitely is a lot better here, particularly when interacting with the rest of the cast.  Still, his one facial expression continues to make it difficult to know whether he's happy or angry or confused or anything.  Danny continues to be the weakest link but does a lot better here.  It was nice to bring in so many of the supporting casts from the show too and I really enjoyed that as well.  It was a lot of fun and had terrific humor as well.  Very good action although no standout action scene like DD had in Season 1 and 2.

The villains though...that was definitely the weak point.  The Hand doesn't inspire fear in anyone and I'll be glad never to see them again (although Gao has always been entertaining).  Sigourney Weaver was good although her storyline ended way too abruptly and that's a fail for this show.

Elektra though...yikes!  I defended the character and Elodie Yung who played her during Season 2 of DD and I stand by that.  But whomever thought it would be a good idea to have her spend the first four episodes with a confused, zoned out look on her face should be fired and blackballed from the industry.  Yung couldn't even pull that off and her Elektra should not have become the main villain on this show.  She wasn't even that badass of a fighter and threat on the show..

Other complaints...this show LOVED to do cutaways whenever something big was going to happen.  That got very annoying.  Outside of a brief moment with Matt, there was virtually no reaction to the death of Stick.  Scott Glenn was terrific in this and interacted very well with the entire cast.  It was fun to see him with Luke for instance.  Also, I'm pretty sure that Matt and Claire exchanged ZERO dialogue together.  WTF was up with that?  Seriously, Matt was the first hero that she met and the one who brought her into all of this, the two had a romantic history like Jessica and Luke had (Luke learning this would have been a fun source of humor) and The Defenders has NO dialogue exchanged between them.  An absolutely inexplicable failing by the writers there

I happened to like the separate stories in the first two episodes that ultimately brought the cast together.

This episode could have used a real standout action scene.  Still, I really enjoyed this series and look forward to more Marvel Netflix series.  Hopefully the Hand will be gone for good now and a more engaging villain threat will be brought in.  Also, good way to end things with Matt, something fans of DD comics will easily be able to recognize.

Edited September 5, 2017 by benteen

[Doyounot]

I actually liked the fight scene with all 4 of them and the hip hop playing randomly, maybe it made it more fun, or maybe just because thats the kind of music i mostly listen to, but either way that and the office fight scene when they first met were the parts i thought were great (and also the restaurant scene was good cause it was the first time they talked to each other).

But other than that "meh" is the word i would use as so many others have before me. Not as bad as the word "awful" i would use for iron fist though and I feel like if i watched jessica jones and luke cage i would like this show way more but since i dont alot of the scenes meant nothing to me.

I am glad i watched it, i dont feel i wasted my time with it just because of daredevil season 3. I thought they would make it so u wouldnt have had to watch this to watch the next seasons of all 4 but nope its definitely a prerequisite. Thats gonna be a buzzkill to remember in the future to tell people watch daredevil s1,2, defenders then s3 and the rest s1, defenders then s2's.

[jeansheridan]

13 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

But, my god, can they just let Matt get laid

I had assumed there was sex with Karen. And Froggy teases him about all his ladies at the beginning of DD1. 

But yeah, Charlie Cox is one of those actors who looks plausible with lots of women. Elekta was initially out of his league but he steps up quickly. 

I think Jessica is a nice combo of Elektra and Karen. She has been around, there is some damage, violence is an option but unlike Elektra she isn't cruel and feels guilt.  And she isn't judgy like Karen.

I guess from the Comics Jessica and Luke are more likely but since Claire won't die, there is time for a fling!

[Rina99]

I was one of the few who didn't hate The Hand as villains in Daredevil S2, but that was mainly because that facilitated the return of one of my favorite villains, Nobu. Plus, I'd grown to despise Karen so much that I was willing to support any other relationship Matt was in, even if it was with Elektra, who I'm overall pretty meh on. I felt that The Defenders had both the best and worst of all of the shows, which meant that while it was enjoyable, it never came close to the heights it could have. I mean, the Hand's big plan was...uncovering dragon bones? And why exactly did this mean that New York would end up destroyed? These shows don't have the budget of any of the Avenger team-ups, but it's like they wanted to do this as cheaply as possible, so the grand plan didn't come off as nearly epic enough. The villains spent most of their time talking about what they wanted to do and barely doing anything. 

What the Defenders did do well is function as the origin story that Danny needed. It didn't connect in Iron Fist because the showrunners did little to showcase where he came from, so him going on about protecting it and being its sworn defender rang hollow, particularly as they wanted to combine it at the same time with the idea of someone breaking free and finding their own destiny. If nothing else, this show moved him to a point where he saw himself as more than just the Iron Fist and focused on protecting people beyond Kun Lan. 

And if Daredevil S3 consists of Foggy and Karen moaning and whining about Matt some more, I might give up on it. Karen's already intolerable, but at least Foggy seemed to sort of come around, though he ended up feeling like he got Matt killed. Even so, I just don't want to hear it anymore. They need to either accept that Matt likes to put on a suit and go kick ass or find a new friend. I'm all out of empathy. And to that point, let MATT accept that he likes to put on a suit and kick ass. We also don't need another season of him moping around about that fact. 

To that end, both Jessica and Luke need to move forward as well. I know Mike Colter isn't the most expressive actor, but he can do more than he's been given. I was glad to see Jessica unveil her sign and appear to be ready to get back to work. And it was good to see them leave off in a good place after all of the crap that went down between them. 

[festivus]

17 hours ago, benteen said:

Other complaints...this show LOVED to do cutaways whenever something big was going to happen.  That got very annoying.  Outside of a brief moment with Matt, there was virtually no reaction to the death of Stick.  Scott Glenn was terrific in this and interacted very well with the entire cast.  It was fun to see him with Luke for instance.  Also, I'm pretty sure that Matt and Claire exchanged ZERO dialogue together.  WTF was up with that?  Seriously, Matt was the first hero that she met and the one who brought her all into this, the two had a romantic history like Jessica and Luke had (Luke learning this would have been a fun source of humor) and The Defenders has NO dialogue exchanged between them.  An absolute inexplicable failing by the writers there.

Preach that. So many balls were dropped in this series where there could have been good character moments and we just got more stupid fight scenes. I've only ever liked the fight scenes in Daredevil anyway. I also think the only woman Matt has ever had chemistry with is Claire. Maybe I just answered the question of why they had no scene together. 

[ketose]

I've watched both seasons of Daredevil, a few episodes of JJ, a couple of IF and 0 Luke Cage. I liked Defenders because it sort of unified all these shows. Too many of these Marvel properties are spending time as backdoor pilots to other franchises. DD season 2 was heavily Punisher related. I think Netflix would have been better off with a Defenders series that sort of focused on a different member of the team, like the shows on regular TV instead of 4 limited series with disjointed origin stories and filler episodes.