S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[dr pepper]

Some random comments:

I like Dickon, he's like a teeny bopper. He happens to have a big strong body, but inwardly he's a young boy trying to hold it together in a situation he wasn't ready for.

Agreed that Jaime will contrive to survive somehow, though removing his prosthesis and then undoing his armor straps with one hand while drowning seems unlikely. Still, whoever knocked him into the water might be able to drag him out. I also agree that it's not clear it was Bronn, but let's assume it was. The next episode begins with Jaime coughing and retching as Bronn pounds on his back. They both look up. Tyrion is standing there, hands in his belt, a squad of Drothraki behind him. Tyrion: Jaime-- good to see you! Jaime: Are you taking me prisoner? Tyrion: Seems so. Will you come peacefully? These men are under orders to take you alive, but it could be unpleasant. Drothraki: (wave sickle swords). Jaime: Right, we surrender. Tyrion: Good. Bronn help him up. Bronn: And which of you is paying me for this?

The cave scene was cool, but it should not have required exploring. It's not like Stannis to have ignored any part of his domain. The main hall should have been full of notebooks with drawings and maps. And diagrams to indicate where the secret passages were and how to avoid being eaten by a grue.

Speaking of that cave, Jon seems to be impressed by the images of humans and fairies working together. But that was several thousand years ago when the first people brought the bronze age to what came to be called Westros. Sure the first folk went partly native, adapting the tree cult, but they still took possession of the land and drove the fairies into the margins. Then later, when the andals brought the iron age in, they scorned animism in favor of polytheism, destroying or neglecting the sacred groves. So i wonder, could the fairies be thinking of this situation as their chance to retake the continent. I mean, yes, they want to destroy the undead forces, but perhaps they would like to see the humans slaughtered at the same time. After all, from the fairy perspective, all humans are essostri who need to go home.

[jeansheridan]

12 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Yet one episode after he was doing his best "well then ..." deadpan to the introduction of Dany of the 20 titles he's apparently not only doing whatever it is he's doing with Missandei but believing it must be true enough to joke about switching teams and join Dany's all-star fluffing team.

I see this as diplomacy. Davos is like Tyrion. He talks to people and gets to know them. He is gathering impressions. She was a tad chilly to him when they met so he is overly charming now. It's a game. I agree I wish the conversation was more pertinent. Do I care if Narth has no marriage? Not really. But he he did get her talking. Talking is good between potential allies.

[dr pepper]

More thoughts:

Agreed that Bran was harsh and ungrateful to Meera, but i think it will be revealed that it was all for a purpose. As for her heading home to her family, maybe not. They've got the green sight and their swamps are about to freeze over. I wouldn't be surprised if they're already on their way. Frog legs for everyone!

I liked how when some of the drothraki knelt in their saddles and pulled out bows, the Lannister troops shot first and a lot of the kneelers went down because while that move added to the drothraki offense, it also made them more exposed.

[Oscirus]

8 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I agree. Pod could probably beat the average soldier and take quite a few Wights. It takes years starting very young to come close to being as good as Brienne who is a superior swords person.

 

12 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Possibly Pod is fantastic fighting your average soldiers.  Pod is training with Brienne to be a knight, which is a step up.  And to be fair, Brienne kicks ass as a knight -- ask the Hound.

If this was a real fight, that would be one thing, but they're clearly training so he should be fairing better in these situations given all the training that he's supposedly done with her.

[VCRTracking]

I checked and GOT stunt coordinator Rowley Irlam already won two previous Emmy awards for "Outstanding Stunt Coordination for a Drama Series, Limited Series and Movie" for seasons 5 and 6. I think he should make more shelf space for a third!

Edited August 8, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Shimmergloom]

12 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I needed a more overt "water under the bridge" moment.

I think Arya going in for the 2nd hug was the water under the bridge moment.  Arya probably didn't even realize how happy she would be to see Sansa until then.

[Bats27]

The French WON the Hundred Year's War, and drove the English out of all of France except for Calais.  And then throughout the next few hundred years, they established themselves as one of the dominant powers Europe.  Look up commanders like Maurice de Saxe, Louis the Grande Conde, The Vicomte of Turenne, etc.  This notion that France only became a great military power once Napoleon came along, is simply wrong.

They Tyrell's lost, because the writers realized that they'd given Dany all of the advantages, needed to make Cersei seem like she even has a chance of winning, and couldn't think of a logical way to show that.  so they just ignored logic, just like how they ignored logic to let Euron ambush Theon on Yara, even though that made no sense in context.

They have a habit of making their heroes look stupid just to make the bad guys look better, and this season has really gone all in on that.

[dr pepper]

Speaking of Jaime, how come defrocked Maester Da Vinci hasn't made him a mechanical appendage yet?

[MadMouse]

2 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

In season three when Olenna is talking to Sansa I think mocks her own house symbol. The rose and how unimpressive it is. Plus we saw her son Mace who was deeply unimpressive.

 Loras on the show was never shown in a great light. The Hound saved him once and we never saw him fight again. I think Loras was a picture of an ideal knight and I am sure he could fight competently but show Loras was never awe inspiring. 

My impression on the show was that the women were the brains of the family and the guys followed along, especially after Renley died.

The book Tyrells are in some ways less defined. There are more of them. The eldest son is a cripple but kind according to his sister. Loras still has no great moments and is fighting for his life after being burned by oil I think.

The Tarlys are the tough ones, book and show. And if they abandoned Olenna I can see the Reach failing. 

Of course where are the troops Mace had in the city to get Margary out of prison? 

Loras is one of the best tourney knights and a great swordsman in the books. He cut down two of Renlys rainbow guard after his murder. Garlan is one of best swords in the Kingdom and was Renlys ghost leading the vanguard against Stannis. The show just needed them out of the way quickly so saying they're terrible warriors was their justification.

[Maum]

Didn't they show the Children of Men creating the Walkers to fight the First Men?

Now they're shown as united against them- I am confused.

ETA: in the show at least. Pretty dramatic reveal to them switch and show them fighting together.

 

With all this food situation I have a feeling Dany might try to steal the Winterfell supplies.

 

And I am clearly the only one on these forums who doesn't like the dragons. They eat children.

I was rooting for Bronn against Drogon.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Maum

[darkestboy]

Brilliant episode. The big battle sequence was stunning and I really thought that Drogon was a goner at one point.

Dany made a dangerous choice to go into the battle and nearly got killed by Jaime but the ending was certianly one of the best moments they pulled in this one.

I did enjoy her scenes more with Jon in this one but turning on Tyrion wasn't her greatest move either. I also liked Jon and Davos's conversation with Missandei as well.

The reunion with Sansa, Bran and Arya was a highlight for me in this one along with Arya and Brienne's training moment.

Really hope that Littlefinger's days are coming to an end as well.

Good scene with Cersei and Tychos but it didn't add too much to the episode though, 9/10

[YaddaYadda]

6 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

In season three when Olenna is talking to Sansa I think mocks her own house symbol. The rose and how unimpressive it is. Plus we saw her son Mace who was deeply unimpressive.

 Loras on the show was never shown in a great light. The Hound saved him once and we never saw him fight again. I think Loras was a picture of an ideal knight and I am sure he could fight competently but show Loras was never awe inspiring. 

My impression on the show was that the women were the brains of the family and the guys followed along, especially after Renley died.

The book Tyrells are in some ways less defined. There are more of them. The eldest son is a cripple but kind according to his sister. Loras still has no great moments and is fighting for his life after being burned by oil I think.

The Tarlys are the tough ones, book and show. And if they abandoned Olenna I can see the Reach failing. 

Whoever had a hand in raising the Tyrell brothers, be it Olenna, their mother, or someone else entirely, those guys are nothing like Mace. Mace is a bumbling fool and no one respects him, least of all his mother. 

Loras is one of the best fighters in the realm at the age of sixteen. 

Garlan is also a great fighter and he is cunning. The idea of wearing Renly's armor was all his and it helped turn the tide of battle of Blackwater. He was kind to Sansa on her wedding day even though he had never really interacted with her and he seems to be a good judge of character.  And Willas is smart. After the Shield Islands are attacked and taken, he knows how the ironborn did it while the Small Council is being inept and acting outraged at what happened. So the books at least have given those guys personalities.

Loras on the show was a great disappointment for me. I was expecting more. 

5 hours ago, dr pepper said:

I like Dickon, he's like a teeny bopper. He happens to have a big strong body, but inwardly he's a young boy trying to hold it together in a situation he wasn't ready for.

I like Dickon too. And I thought he wasn't all that different from Sam. I doubt show!Dickon would have gone near a sword if it hadn't been for his father. Randyll Tarly is an abusive fuck. Period. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Haleth]

2 hours ago, Maum said:

Didn't they show the Children of Men creating the Walkers to fight the First Men?

Now they're shown as united against them- I am confused.

ETA: in the show at least. Pretty dramatic reveal to them switch and show them fighting together.

Good point.  I'd forgotten about this.

Regarding the Tyrells as fighters, Loras excelled on the tournament field.  Big difference between that and a battlefield.

About Pod still being inept, not everyone is cut out to be skilled fighter.  His heart may be in it but he will never be a knight.  He might consider another line of work.

I just can't see Tom Hopper as John Bradley-West's little brother.  Or as a young man so unfamiliar with fighting.  Love Tom, but he is too old for the role.

Someone way back pointed out that Gilly's baby might end up as Lord Tarly since Sam is passing the baby off as his.  What a funny turn of events if a Wildling, Craster's child, inherits the Tarly estate.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Haleth

[nodorothyparker]

10 hours ago, theschnauzers said:

Quote

His features are more chiseled and he's certainly doubled down on attractiveness since Merlin.

You should have been watching Black Sails. It seems to me TPTB darkened his hair for his GoT role.

I'm still patiently waiting for the show to figure out a reason for Tom Hopper to suddenly be sporting sleeveless armor.  As much as I loved Black Sails, it was always amusing to see that show configure ways for all the men around him to be swashbuckling in full frock coats while he was forever going about in shirt sleeves rolled all the way up to his shoulders to show off his best assets.

[Francie]

6 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I see this as diplomacy. Davos is like Tyrion. He talks to people and gets to know them. He is gathering impressions. She was a tad chilly to him when they met so he is overly charming now. It's a game. I agree I wish the conversation was more pertinent. Do I care if Narth has no marriage? Not really. But he he did get her talking. Talking is good between potential allies.

I agree that Davos is using diplomacy.  He's met a storm front, and he's trying to create rapport. 

 

But I think every moment and every conversation serves a purpose at this point. That Naath has no marriage and no bastards is important for when Daenerys learns that Jon is Rhaegar's son.  She may hold on to Jon's bastard status as a justification for considering herself the "rightful" ruler of Westeros. And her bff has a different life experience, and can't back her as to that, unless she placates her instead of telling her what she really thinks. 

[sacrebleu]

Quote

Jaime doesn't consider himself an invaluable asset. 

well, there was the whole "There is no one like me, only me" conversation with Kat Stark. I think he sees himself as a military leader-- he saw a threat to him and his men at a vulnerable moment (wounded dragon/Dany dismounted), he saw an opportunity to take it out-- so that's what he did. 

The only way I'll accept both Bronn & Jamie surviving the dragon fire and the fall into the water in full armor-- is if Danys troops fish them out and keep them as POWs. Bronn will most likely try to talk his way out of it and offer to switch sides. 

Loss of the food/ loss of the Lannister army's command-- that's a big hit-- it will make up for the ridiculous 'got all the gold back' plot point (rewatch last night, Tarly did say all the gold was back in KL)

[Francie]

6 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

well, there was the whole "There is no one like me, only me" conversation with Kat Stark. I think he sees himself as a military leader-- he saw a threat to him and his men at a vulnerable moment (wounded dragon/Dany dismounted), he saw an opportunity to take it out-- so that's what he did. 

The only way I'll accept both Bronn & Jamie surviving the dragon fire and the fall into the water in full armor-- is if Danys troops fish them out and keep them as POWs. Bronn will most likely try to talk his way out of it and offer to switch sides. 

Loss of the food/ loss of the Lannister army's command-- that's a big hit-- it will make up for the ridiculous 'got all the gold back' plot point (rewatch last night, Tarly did say all the gold was back in KL)

The New York Times did an interview with Nikolaj Coster-Waldau on this episode, and he had this to say about Jaime's mindset with charging Dany:

"Yeah. Jaime’s not a complete idiot. He knows that this is a long-shot. But he also knows that there is no way that they can beat this woman. They cannot beat these dragons. The only way would be to somehow kill her, and for a brief second, he sees that opening. It’s like a Hail Mary."

 

 

Quote

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Francie

[WebosFritos]

Francie, I like your theory about an argument between Dany and Missandei concerning legitimacy. That would be an interesting scene.

Minor nitpick from someone who watches and enjoys the opening credits. Why is Pyke in the credits? We haven't even been there this season.

On 7/8/2017 at 5:24 AM, doram said:

7 seasons into this show and soldiers being killed in wartime is (suddenly) a problem, then you're probably watching the wrong show. 

My heart weeps with joy at how many people wanted Jamie to die. 

I've been wanting Jaime dead since episode 1, season 1.

On 7/8/2017 at 7:17 AM, Lemuria said:

How about asking for his assurance that, if she brings dragons and troops to fight the WW, he agrees to an alliance between her and the North, and he agrees to help her regain the Iron Throne?  A Treaty between two monarchs.  That would be give and take, too:  you help me to save Westeros from the undead and I'll sign a treaty that assures you I'll help in your fight against the Lannisters.

Dany, to me, is insisting on submission from him before helping to save the land that she wants to rule.  In other words, she seems to be counting on his being more concerned about the people of Westeros than she is.  It's just my opinion, but I don't think this particular aspect of the writing is making her look good.  

Dany left Daario behind in order to find a good political match. However, when she meets Jon, who rules the largest Kingdom in Westeros and is allied with the Vale, which has a large cavalry, she refuses to even consider forming an alliance with him. She only holds Dragonstone and Casterly Rock right now so she's not in a position of great power. Sure, she has three dragons but we know she won't use them to lay waste to the Seven Kingdoms and I'm not sure they're going to be enough for her to win the Iron Throne.

I really hope Dany will turn her attention North sooner rather than later. Because her dragons would be really useful against the army of the dead and she wouldn't have to worry about killing her own subjects. I also think that Jon is entirely focused on the threat of the Night King and he will never risk his army in the war against Cersei. It's not what he promised to his people.

On 7/8/2017 at 1:43 PM, cambridgeguy said:

Dany seems to have a lot of faith in Jon's ability to rally the Northern lords. 

Jon did point out that the northern lords wouldn't follow a southern ruler but he also failed to mention that they were against him meeting her and that they really, really don't trust her. I think the Northerners would turn their back on Jon if they felt he betrayed them by joining a foreign leader. The North has been through a lot and Dany being allied with the Greyjoys isn't going to endear her to them.

1 hour ago, Maum said:

Didn't they show the Children of Men creating the Walkers to fight the First Men?

Now they're shown as united against them- I am confused.

ETA: in the show at least. Pretty dramatic reveal to them switch and show them fighting together.

Last we saw them, they were protecting the cave where Bran and Co. were staying and they gave up their life trying to help them escape. So in the show we know that they had a change of heart at one point about fighting their own creation.

[Maum]

Yes but I thought they were specifically protecting Bran as Three Eyed Raven in Waiting and friend of the Forest.

There's such a contrast between the North and the South that it feels the northerners are Children of the Forest and the South is the conquering force.

They even have opposing gods.

[nodorothyparker]

9 hours ago, Kathemy said:

Jaime didn't abandon his army and flee to King's Landing? Was that stupid? Maybe in a purely selfish perspective, but what is the reaction of the television crowd and the on-screen army to Joffrey doing just that at the siege of Blackwater?

Second, the charge?

Jaime doesn't consider himself an invaluable asset. To him, he's a soldier, and soldiers are expendable. More than that, he's a knight and has taken knights' vows of bravery. So he sees the dragon wounded and Dany dismounted. He hears the dragon screaming as Dany unsuccessfully tries to pull the spear out of him. How is he to know exactly how wounded Drogon is? Here he is presented with a dice roll - bad one, but a dice roll - to take out the pretender to the throne in one strike, and all it costs him is risking the life of one man.

He may be too brave for his own good but that scene doesn't show stupidity.

I actually found the entire thing, from his choosing to stay with his troops to making that seemingly suicidal charge, very much in character with book Jaime.  How many times both in book and show are we told that he thinks before he acts, that he's impulsive to the point of sometimes being foolhardy, that he's fierce and brave as hell as a fighter?  It's only after he loses his sword hand that he has to face the reality that those things don't work for him anymore because he can no longer back them up.  But now they're in a desperate situation where they're all likely to be killed anyway so he might as well take that infinitesimal chance that he can land that charge and stop the carnage.

I read Nikolaj Coster-Waldau's NY Times interview and it seems like he has a good handle on the character as he's being written for the show.  I'll also give him full marks for being able to properly convey the wonder and horror and every other emotion that goes with them in reacting to a CGI dragon that wasn't actually there.  That's one of the usual excuses we get for why Emilia Clarke is such a wooden actress, that she spends so much of her screen time reacting to inanimate object stand ins for the dragons. 

[Constantinople]

9 hours ago, Kathemy said:

Jaime doesn't consider himself an invaluable asset. To him, he's a soldier, and soldiers are expendable. More than that, he's a knight and has taken knights' vows of bravery.

And we know what a stickler Jaime is when it comes to honoring vows.

[Normades]

7 hours ago, dr pepper said:

I like Dickon, he's like a teeny bopper. He happens to have a big strong body, but inwardly he's a young boy trying to hold it together in a situation he wasn't ready for.

I liked him too!  Just have to say I laughed like hell over the "Didn't they teach you that at fancy lad school?"  I hope to work that into a conversation someday soon!  

[Hana Chan]

18 minutes ago, WebosFritos said:

Jon did point out that the northern lords wouldn't follow a southern ruler but he also failed to mention that they were against him meeting her and that they really, really don't trust her. I think the Northerners would turn their back on Jon if they felt he betrayed them by joining a foreign leader. The North has been through a lot and Dany being allied with the Greyjoys isn't going to endear her to them.

Dany acts as if she's owed allegiance by the North on account of the vow that Jon's ancestor made to her ancestor a whole bunch of generations ago. The problem for Dany is that things have changed. Drastically. She might be claiming the title of Queen of Westeros, but until her backside is planted on the Iron Throne and she controls more than a single area and is able to hold it, she's nothing more than a claimant (in the way that Stannis and Renly were). The Targ dynasty was overthrown a generation ago. There are a whole lot of people living in Westeros who never knew life under the Targs.

The North has claimed its independence under Robb and he reality is that there is no one in the south with the strength to bring them to heel. At this point, Dany is not in any position to do anything more than make demands for Jon to "bend the knee" before she even considers what he's telling her. She's lost a huge chunk of her allies and what forces she currently has are tied up in the fight with Cerci. She's got no men that she can afford to send North, especially with Winter arriving there. Sure she's got dragons, but as others have pointed out, she's got to be riding one for them to be of any use so while they can be considered weapons of mass destruction, their usefulness is actually a bit limited. Short of holding Jon hostage, she really doesn't have the kind of leverage that she's acting as if she has.

And yeah... having allied with the Greyjoys isn't going to win points at Winterfell.

I was also considering Missandei's little speech about how Dany earned the loyalty of former slaves like her and while I'm still not loving the "white savior" feel of the whole thing, it shows a really marked contrast in Dany's behavior. How much actual freedom Missandei of the Unsullied have (in their ability to walk away from Dany if they choose) is a debatable point, but she made a huge deal about how Dany had become the Queen that they follow by choice. It's a very marked contrast to her demanding loyalty from Jon, for whom she's done absolutely nothing and shows little interest in the serious issue that Jon is presenting to her. That to me doesn't make Dany "better" as a prospective ruler - she's got just as much a sense of entitlement (if not moreso) than everyone else who claimed to be the rightful ruler of Westeros. If anything we're seeing that the "rightful" ruler is just the person who manages to wrest and hold power at a given moment.

[Katsullivan]

On 8/7/2017 at 0:59 AM, anamika said:

Quote

I think it can also be flipped back at Dany.  We have a term in our legal system for what she's trying to do:  It's called extortion.  She's accusing him of letting his pride get in the way of helping the North--yet she indicates that she is willing to let the North (and possibly a lot more of Westeros) fall to white walkers if he doesn't give her what she wants.  Pot, meet kettle.

Not at all. Jon is asking Dany to commit her forces - people who followed her to Westeros to fight for the throne - to fight an yet unseen threat. Dany is willing to do that - but in return she wants his assurance that after it is over, the North is part of the 7K and not fighting Dany for independence. There should be give and take on both sides.

Or please. By that logic, Jon is the one doing the extortion. He's the one who came to Dragonstone asking for her dragons and army or ARMAGEDDON! 

What people deliberately keep misunderstanding is that Jon bending the knee is a condition for Dany's help, not the other way around. If she's not the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, including the North, she has not obligation to help him fight the War. If he wants her help, this is the price he pays. 

It would be a different matter if Dany was duty-bound to help Jon, but she's not.

Heck, he's not even negotiating. He's not offering to ally with her to fight Cersei. He's telling her to abandon her own war to fight his own. 

 

For all this talk about Dany's entitlement, Jon is the one who marched into Dragonstone and felt he was entitled to her dragons and her army, in exchange for nothing.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Katsullivan

[MV713]

19 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Varys, in response to Varys saying chaos is a pit.  "Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, some are given a chance to climb. They refuse, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is."

Jeez, who can remember all this :)

I don't recall that scene at all...the references are pretty hard to pick up on when then span across 6 years.

[Hana Chan]

Just now, Katsullivan said:

If she's not the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, including the North, she has not obligation to help him fight the War. If he wants her help, this is the price he pays. 

On the other hand, by refusing to even take what Jon is trying to tell her seriously, she's showing that she views the ruler/subject relationship (at least for now) as a one way street. Part of the title for the ruler of Westeros is to be its Protector and right now, Dany is showing absolutely nil real interest in even taking seriously a threat to the kingdom that she is being warned about. 

Jon is trying to tell her that the fight for the Iron Throne is far less important that a very real threat. Dany's not asking for evidence to prove that his "ARMAGEDDON" fears are overblown. She's just dismissing it because it might get in the way of her sitting in the world's most uncomfortable chair.

[nodorothyparker]

Googling helps.  As do the half dozen thinkpieces that appeared yesterday spelling it out for those like me who may have sort of remembered it but not the specifics.

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, rmontro said:

I'm a little concerned that they are setting up Daenerys for a fall with her insistence that Jon and the North bend the knee to her.  She's always been a ruthless enemy, but I'm afraid they may be making her a little too big for her britches.  

My personal prediction for how I think the story ends is with Jon Snow on the iron throne, probably with a dragon, and with Daenerys having been killed.  I don't base that on anything other than my gut feeling, and GRRM's statement that the ending was "bittersweet".

I  think it ends up with Sam, Arya (so GRRM's wife doesn't divorce him) and maybe Tyrion during the next summer. Tyrion in Kings Landing, Sam maybe with the Nightsguard and Arya in winterfell.  Writing the history of what went down during the past winter.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Affogato
added

[Francie]

4 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Or please. By that logic, Jon is the one doing the extortion. He's the one who came to Dragonstone asking for her dragons and army or ARMAGEDDON! 

You know that Jon isn't the one bringing the armageddon, right?  So, he's not extorting. He's warning. 

[WatchrTina]

15 hours ago, Maum said:

Didn't they show the Children of Men creating the Walkers to fight the First Men?

Now they're shown as united against them- I am confused.

The White Walkers are like the virus that killed almost everyone in "I Am Legend."  The people who created it could not control it and it nearly destroyed them.  When the Children of the Forest realized what a terrible error they had made, they made common cause with the First Men to drive the White Walkers north and confine them there behind the wall. Some of the CorF obviously agreed to live north of the wall (in protected caves) to keep an eye on the WW.  But they're baaaaack.

13 hours ago, Haleth said:

I just can't see Tom Hopper as John Bradley-West's little brother.  Or as a young man so unfamiliar with fighting.  Love Tom, but he is too old for the role.

Yeah, that's true.  I'm an Outlander fan (note the tartan) and in season 1 of that show Sam Heughan, 30-something actor, had to pay a naive, 20-something man and he did a good job of it but he had more to work with than Tom has been given here.  Tom's such an imposing physical specimen (he's like 6'5" and has graced the cover of Men's Health magazine because he's so buff) that once you put in him armor it's really hard to see a young man who hasn't seen battle yet -- especially in a world where VERY young men (teenagers) act as squires for knights.  He's had almost no dialog so the only thing you can judge him on is his looks and, yeah, he doesn't look the part of Sam's little brother. That being said, I LOVED Tom in Black Sails so I hope he either gets a heroic death or a happily-ever-after in this series.

13 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'm still patiently waiting for the show to figure out a reason for Tom Hopper to suddenly be sporting sleeveless armor.

Aim higher!  I think there must be a scene in the future that requires him to at least take his shirt off.

Edited August 9, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Katsullivan]

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

You know that Jon isn't the one bringing the armageddon, right?  So, he's not extorting. He's warning. 

We know that because we're the audience and we get to be right behind his shoulder in all his previous scenes. All Dany has is his word on this. For all she knows, he's asking her to fix a problem he started when he was on the Wall.

And yeah, I'm going to bring up that dirty word - fanfiction - and say this is exactly where this "adaptation" shows it ass. Dany is a Targaryen and she's had Targaryen dreams and visions of this Approaching Doom. The show even pays homage to that during her sojourn in the House of the Undying. But somewhere along the line, D & D lost track of their continuity. Considering that they can't even remember that Missandei mentioned the Prophecy of the Prince/Princess that Was Promised in the last episode, maybe we can't blame them. 

Jon could also mention Aemon Targaryen - you know, Dany's Great-Great-Uncle and Jon's mentor as someone who took this threat seriously. You know, establish a common ground. 

But we don't  have any of this.

We have Jon waltzing into Dragonstone and asking Dany to postpone her own war and loan out her dragons and armies based on his word. He is insisting that this War takes precedence above everything else BUT he won't bend the knee to get her much needed help. LOL. 

11 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

On the other hand, by refusing to even take what Jon is trying to tell her seriously, she's showing that she views the ruler/subject relationship (at least for now) as a one way street. Part of the title for the ruler of Westeros is to be its Protector and right now, Dany is showing absolutely nil real interest in even taking seriously a threat to the kingdom that she is being warned about. 

Jon is trying to tell her that the fight for the Iron Throne is far less important that a very real threat. Dany's not asking for evidence to prove that his "ARMAGEDDON" fears are overblown. She's just dismissing it because it might get in the way of her sitting in the world's most uncomfortable chair.

LOL! 

So Dany should be the Protector of Jon's Kingdom, is that what you're arguing? 

It doesn't work that way.

 

Dany isn't dismissing his claims. She's asking him to bend the knee to prove them.

IF Jon's claims of ARMAGGEDON were serious - why is he so insistent on not doing what he needs to get her help?

On the one hand, he's telling her that her own Throne is not as important as this War ---- but his Crown is?

Gee, I wonder why Dany isn't taking him seriously?

[Misplaced]

Am I the only person who though Block-of-Wood-Bran (Block-o'-Bran?) was actually tearing up when Meera left?  As she walks out the door, he turns to the side and the firelight glints off what looks like a sheen of tears in his eyes.  Makes me think Whomever a loooooooong way upthread was right, that Bran is intentionally becoming the Raven because being a Stark has managed to destroy the people he loves.  So he pushes Meera out of the way before something dreadful happens to her.

Dany, eh.  I still find her tedious.  

Davos channeling Stannis The Grammarian was my favourite line, hands down. 

I like DRickon.  He's one of the few who have been honest about battle.  I hope he lives, which means he absolutely will not.  

[YaddaYadda]

I know Jon is being called KitN, but isn't he also the king of the Vale or is that not a thing? When the north named Robb king, the territory also included the riverlands. Just something that's been nagging me. 

[Hana Chan]

3 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

We know that because we're the audience and we get to be right behind his shoulder in all his previous scenes. All Dany has is his word on this. For all she knows, he's asking her to fix a problem he started when he was on the Wall.

As someone who's claiming that she's the rightful ruler of Westeros, one of the responsibilities of that position is to protect the kingdom. Someone that Dany is claiming is one of her subjects is warning that there is a major threat to the actual survival of the kingdom as a whole. Dany's responsibility as "queen" is to at least be willing to investigate the matter. If she was being warned that there was an invasion coming from the Eastern Sea and that there were 100,000 ships heading their way, she would have to take the matter seriously. This is no different.

And this is the biggest problem that I have with Dany, Cersi and everyone else claiming the Iron Throne is that they are all seeking it for their own power and gratification, but the whole kingdom is going to shit as a result. After YEARs of fighting and having multiple great houses decimated, you've got Cerci currently lording over the scraps and Dany looking to see if she can steal what little there is left from her. Not because she thinks that she can be a better ruler than Cerci, but because it's her "right" to be Queen.

6 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

IF Jon's claims of ARMAGGEDON were serious - why is he so insistent on not doing what he needs to get her help?

On the one hand, he's telling her that her own Throne is not as important as this War ---- but his Crown is?

As others have pointed out, Jon's power come from the Northern Lords who have granted it to him. If Jon "bends the knee", the odds are that he will lose his title very quickly and that would just start another front in this constant state of war. And again, Jon is expressing that the threat from the White Walkers is much more important and more immediate than who's ass is on the Iron Throne. The fact that Dany is, at best, expressing that she would consider aiding Jon AFTER she gets what she wants (if she even manages to do so), potentially wasting months to me shows that she 1) is not taking Jon seriously, 2) isn't taking the warning that there is a major threat to the kingdom that she's claiming seriously and 3) is only out for herself in the end. She might be more sympathetic than Cerci because of her tragic backstory, but she's just as entitled.

Sending someone that she trusts to The Wall, to talk to the current Lord Commander and see what's actually going on wouldn't exactly overextend her ability to fight Cerci. Again, she's not even willing at this point to look for any evidence of what Jon is telling her.

[Katsullivan]

3 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

I like DRickon.  He's one of the few who have been honest about battle.  I hope he lives, which means he absolutely will not.  

Meh. I loathe people like him who "know better" but still do the wrong thing. 

[WatchrTina]

4 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

Block-of-Wood-Bran (Block-o'-Bran?)

I prefer the term "RainBran"

[FnkyChkn34]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

I know Jon is being called KitN, but isn't he also the king of the Vale or is that not a thing? When the north named Robb king, the territory also included the riverlands. Just something that's been nagging me. 

No, Robin Arryn is in charge of the Vale.  The North doesn't include either the Vale or the Riverlands, but at this point, Littlefinger "speaks" for the Vale, and they are aligned with Jon.  The Riverlands were the Tullys', but then the Freys' - so most definitely not pledged to Robb/The North anymore.

[Tikichick]

I familiarized myself recently because I wanted to know more about Jon Arryn.  As Lord of the Vale Jon Arryn was Warden of the East, same as Ned acted as Warden of the North.

[jeansheridan]

31 minutes ago, MV713 said:

Jeez, who can remember all this :)

I don't recall that scene at all...the references are pretty hard to pick up on when then span across 6 years.

I don't have an awesome memory but this was a very dramatic sequence in season 3. You see Roz shot with arrows, Sansa crying with Shae as Littlefinger leaves on his ship, and Jon and Ygrette reaching the top of the wall and they kiss. All with that monolog which they used in the ad campaign.  I think it was a far callback. 

[Katsullivan]

1 minute ago, Hana Chan said:

As others have pointed out, Jon's power come from the Northern Lords who have granted it to him. If Jon "bends the knee", the odds are that he will lose his title very quickly and that would just start another front in this constant state of war. And again, Jon is expressing that the threat from the White Walkers is much more important and more immediate than who's ass is on the Iron Throne.

But not more important than him being King in the North?

All he's doing is weakening his own argument because if the North – the first to fall, the most vulnerable to this ARMAGGEDON he’s talking about, the closest Kingdom to the Wall – are not going to put aside their own pettiness to help themselves, then they clearly don’t believe that ARMAGGEDON is coming. So why exactly is Dany, all the way in the South, after years of Exile in Essos supposed to believe in something that the North are obviously not taking seriously?

[stagmania]

12 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

What if we end up in a situation where Dany determines that she loves Jorah but must marry Jon to unite the realm, while Jon must get over whatever psychological hangups he might have about marrying someone who may be his aunt and having to consummate the marriage?

Maybe it's just me, but I find the prospect of Dany suddenly deciding she loves Jorah more gross than the idea of her ending up with Jon. Assuming she ends up with anyone at all. This show is not so big with the romance.

10 hours ago, Kathemy said:

He may be too brave for his own good but that scene doesn't show stupidity.

The dragon was clearly still alive and thus capable of breathing fire. Seemed pretty stupid to charge it to me, and apparently the show agrees since the whole scene was narrated by Tyrion calling him an idiot.

9 hours ago, rmontro said:

I'm a little concerned that they are setting up Daenerys for a fall with her insistence that Jon and the North bend the knee to her.  She's always been a ruthless enemy, but I'm afraid they may be making her a little too big for her britches.  

My personal prediction for how I think the story ends is with Jon Snow on the iron throne, probably with a dragon, and with Daenerys having been killed.  I don't base that on anything other than my gut feeling, and GRRM's statement that the ending was "bittersweet".

I'm not sure the show will stick to the exact ending GRRM envisioned. They've changed so much already; I could easily see them letting some fan favorites live to go out on a nice note.

7 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

As someone who's claiming that she's the rightful ruler of Westeros, one of the responsibilities of that position is to protect the kingdom. Someone that Dany is claiming is one of her subjects is warning that there is a major threat to the actual survival of the kingdom as a whole. Dany's responsibility as "queen" is to at least be willing to investigate the matter. If she was being warned that there was an invasion coming from the Eastern Sea and that there were 100,000 ships heading their way, she would have to take the matter seriously. This is no different.

This calls to mind all the times in the early seasons when we saw rulers in Kings Landing ignore the pleas of the Nights Watch for more men, supplies and support to man the Wall. It was demonstrative of how short-sighted they were as leaders, and I'm hoping Dany will take a different path.

[Normades]

I noticed that in the opening credits that  King's Landing is still represented by the stag.  Is this really correct?  I realize Cersei is a Baratheon by marriage, but everyone has always referred to her as Cersei Lannister.  The Baratheon's are pretty much wiped out and whatever remaining men Stannis had are most likely with Jon.  Shouldn't there be a lion on KL?

[Heckler52317]

For my sanity I'm assuming there were multiple scorpions in the caravan- only one was left for Bronn to man...

I'm very happy that dragons- while very effective- are killable (in this case hurtable). Keeps tension in the war front. 

Dany's operation was a raid so I'm down with destroying the caravan. That close to KL it would have been tough to get those wagons out. 

Delighted to see dothraki bows! 

Wondering if they'll have problems against knights- Lots of callbacks this season and I'm remembering Jorah talking along those lines regarding plate and the favored dothraki weapon

Lannisters did get a few licks in, but broken lines against elite light cavalry is a bad beat

Loved  Jaime taking the chance there, still having trouble wrapping my brain around Bronn's save. Not so much why as how  

The amazing battle PLUS great dialogue PLUS the fantastic sparring with Arya and Brienne makes this the most rewatchable episode I can remember 

[Hana Chan]

1 minute ago, Katsullivan said:

So why exactly is Dany, all the way in the South, after years of Exile in Essos supposed to believe in something that the North are obviously not taking seriously?

Where is the North not taking this seriously? Many of them may be a bit dubious since they haven't seen the White Walkers themselves but they are doing as Jon has instructed. They are preparing and training and getting ready for a long winter and a long siege. 

And again, the point that I am trying to make is that if Dany is claiming to be queen (among the 15 or so title that she's claiming), and is calling herself the Protector of Westeros, if someone shows up to tell you that there is this huge imminent threat to HER kingdom, taking that warning at least seriously enough to check it out is HER responsibility. She's not asking Jon for proof of what he's telling her. And he is providing what little physical proof he can at this moment.

No, she's still making demands and being a total hypocrite. Fine to "earn" the loyalty of slaves that she freed (who seem to have just found another slave master) or the Dorthraki whose leaders she killed. They're all there by "choice". But the people of Westeros will face either serving her or death by dragon. Save for the brother fucking, she's right now not being a whole lot better than Cerci.

[Katsullivan]

22 hours ago, anamika said:

You got all that from this?

On 8/7/2017 at 6:02 AM, anamika said:

When it comes to Sansa, it's really hard to tell what's going on with the character. Poor acting does not help.

https://heavy.com/entertainment/2017/08/game-of-thrones-s07e04-sansas-expression-watching-brienne-arya-explained/

This was the same problem last season as well. Sophie Turner needs to do a better job at conveying whatever it is she is supposed to feel. Or we will have 10 pages of discussion as to whether she is annoyed, jealous, proud, delighted, amazed, shocked, worried or angry - those are all the emotions people here think she was expressing when seeing Arya interact with Brienne. 

According to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X17pjukf8rA

Sansa is worried because Arya nearly beat a warrior like Brienne and is good at killing people. Why she should be worried about that, I have no idea. Does she think Arya is going to come after her?

On 8/6/2017 at 10:19 PM, anamika said:

Yeah, but she did not look alarmed, shocked or in awe. She looked angry, annoyed or jealous - with some side glances at LF - as if she was nervous that LF would catch onto her jealousy. At least that's what the acting conveyed to me.

Yeah, she was definitely not pleased that Brienne was swearing her services to Arya as well.

Just quoting everything here to save myself the time and effort to repeat them. 

The more I think about it, the more I feel that 50% of my problem with Sansa is the writing (she should have bloody stayed standing at her wedding to Tyrion... also rape=power? seriously?!) and the other 50% is Sofie Turner's acting choices.

[Tikichick]

5 minutes ago, Normades said:

I noticed that in the opening credits that  King's Landing is still represented by the stag.  Is this really correct?  I realize Cersei is a Baratheon by marriage, but everyone has always referred to her as Cersei Lannister.  The Baratheon's are pretty much wiped out and whatever remaining men Stannis had are most likely with Jon.  Shouldn't there be a lion on KL?

Pretty much isn't quite good enough.  Root and stem, root and stem.

[FnkyChkn34]

I rewatched the episode (most of it), and Randall Tarly did indeed say that "all the gold is safely through the gates at King's Landing."  So Dany did not burn the gold.  However, I still strongly believe that she burnt everything else, including all of that grain that the Tarlys and Bronn forced the farmers to harvest.  Yes, Tarly mentions how long the caravan is and Jaime says they are stretched thin, however they all appear to be in camp together at that time.  They are spread out over the field next to the Blackwater.  Tarly also says that they need to get the tail over the Blackwater Rush - which tells us that they are not far from King's Landing at all.  He must have rode ahead with the gold and come back again (since he's alone and on a presumably swift horse, this makes sense).  I don't believe there is much food left, presuming all of this is gone.  If the farmers of the Reach were harvesting, there's nothing left to harvest.  So I maintain that Dany is an idiot for destroying a vast majority of the food supplies.

[Katsullivan]

Just now, Hana Chan said:

Where is the North not taking this seriously? Many of them may be a bit dubious since they haven't seen the White Walkers themselves but they are doing as Jon has instructed. They are preparing and training and getting ready for a long winter and a long siege. 

The North are clearly not taking it seriously since the idea of their King kneeling to her is more important than her providing the help that they need.

Or at least that's the argument that Jon is making every time he refuses to bend the knee. 

 

Quote

And again, the point that I am trying to make is that if Dany is claiming to be queen (among the 15 or so title that she's claiming), and is calling herself the Protector of Westeros, if someone shows up to tell you that there is this huge imminent threat to HER kingdom, taking that warning at least seriously enough to check it out is HER responsibility. She's not asking Jon for proof of what he's telling her. And he is providing what little physical proof he can at this moment.

 

It's not her Kingdom until he bends the knee.

The fact that Jon is not willing to accept her as Queen of the North but is demanding that she be Protector of the North is entitlement on his part, not hers. 

Here's a 21st century example for you:

California secedes from the United States - and then they turn around and demand that the US help them fight off an invasion from North Korea. The US says, "OK, but first you need to come back to the US" and California's like "oh no, we're good. Just send your soldiers and your nukes and we'll say thanks and call it a day."

 

Quote

No, she's still making demands and being a total hypocrite. Fine to "earn" the loyalty of slaves that she freed (who seem to have just found another slave master) or the Dorthraki whose leaders she killed. They're all there by "choice". But the people of Westeros will face either serving her or death by dragon. Save for the brother fucking, she's right now not being a whole lot better than Cerci.

What alternative universe version of this show are you watching and how can I get a subscription to it because it sounds wild.

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Where is the North not taking this seriously? Many of them may be a bit dubious since they haven't seen the White Walkers themselves but they are doing as Jon has instructed. They are preparing and training and getting ready for a long winter and a long siege. 

And again, the point that I am trying to make is that if Dany is claiming to be queen (among the 15 or so title that she's claiming), and is calling herself the Protector of Westeros, if someone shows up to tell you that there is this huge imminent threat to HER kingdom, taking that warning at least seriously enough to check it out is HER responsibility. She's not asking Jon for proof of what he's telling her. And he is providing what little physical proof he can at this moment.

No, she's still making demands and being a total hypocrite. Fine to "earn" the loyalty of slaves that she freed (who seem to have just found another slave master) or the Dorthraki whose leaders she killed. They're all there by "choice". But the people of Westeros will face either serving her or death by dragon. Save for the brother fucking, she's right now not being a whole lot better than Cerci.

The north swallowed down the notion of wildlings south of the wall on Jon's say so and persuasion.  They're clearly taking this seriously, even if they perhaps don't have the clearest of pictures what "this" is.  Dany talks about surviving on faith in herself.   Jon's on a whole other level when it comes to having people place their faith in him.

[WebosFritos]

I really don't think it's Jon's pride that's stopping him from bending the knee just like it wasn't Mance's pride that made him refuse to follow Stannis. They both are/were just thinking about their people and the responsibility they have towards them. Dany has a "good heart" (TM King Snow) and as soon as she starts focusing on the fight beyond the Wall I think Jon will seriously consider bending the knee.

1 hour ago, Maum said:

Yes but I thought they were specifically protecting Bran as Three Eyed Raven in Waiting and friend of the Forest.

There's such a contrast between the North and the South that it feels the northerners are Children of the Forest and the South is the conquering force.

They even have opposing gods.

The North worships the same gods as the children of the forrest, if I remember correctly. But I don't remember if it's been mentioned on the show. I think they did show that weirwoods are sacred to the northerners and the children. In my opinion, the show has established that the children no longer control the White Walkers. Maybe Jon misinterpreted the drawings in the cave but it seems unlikely to me that the children still want the Night King to destroy mankind. I also think Jon was simply trying to show to Dany the importance of fighting together to defeat the army of the dead.