S04.E05: The Gift of the Maggie

[BkWurm1]

Liza hunts for a new romance author, which brings her closer to Charles.  Elsewhere: Maggie slashes an art competitor.  

Edited July 27, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Armchair Critic]

This show seems to be coasting. Maybe they think that if everybody knows Liza's age that will end the show? For me it's pleasant viewing but not that interesting except for Diana (loved the actress in GCB and also in Swingtown).

Edited July 27, 2017 by Armchair Critic

[BkWurm1]

I normally love this show but this episode was sooooo awful when it came to romance writers, readers and the stories they tell.  They at least clued in before the end that it isn't a Romance if it doesn't have a HEA, but I'm incredibly disappointed in this show for equating 50 Shades and fan fic with the entire romance genre.  It's just incredibly insulting to imply that no one but deviant crackpots or batty old ladies would be willing to admit to writing Romance. Or that readers need a writer to tell them that not every relationship works out.  Even more insulting that they do it while admitting it's Romance that keeps on the lights.  I really didn't expect this show to perpetuate the shaming of women for liking to read Romance.  They didn't ridicule the guy writing spy thrillers or worry that his readers needed a reality check.   

Edited July 27, 2017 by BkWurm1

[HunterHunted]

On 7/26/2017 at 9:49 PM, BkWurm1 said:

I normally love this show but this episode was sooooo awful when it came to romance writers, readers and the stories they tell.  They at least clued in before the end that it isn't a Romance if it doesn't have a HEA, but I'm incredibly disappointed in this show for equating 50 Shades and fan fic with the entire romance genre.  It's just incredibly insulting to imply that no one but deviant crackpots or batty old ladies would be willing to admit to writing Romance. Or that readers need a writer to tell them that not every relationship works out.  Even more insulting that they do it while admitting it's Romance that keeps on the lights.  I really didn't expect this show to perpetuate the shaming of women for liking to read Romance.  They didn't ridicule the guy writing spy thrillers or worry that his readers needed a reality check.   

This show has never been nuanced. Never. Ever. I think they were trying to condense and simplify the trends with publishing romance and erotica. These genres are really not well supported by mainstream publishing. These authors have increasingly turned to self publishing. 

http://www.vulture.com/2015/02/amazon-tina-engler-erotica.html

https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/authors/pw-select/article/69156-self-publishing-preview-2016.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/31/business/media/meredith-wild-a-self-publisher-making-an-imprint.html

http://observer.com/2016/02/kristen-ashley-digital-author/

Amy Montana's painting over existing paintings initially reminded me of David Irvine.

http://twistedsifter.com/2014/07/thrift-store-painting-remixes-by-david-irvine/

But the characterization of Amy Montana was so pointedly clear about her obvious hackery and entitlement that it makes me wonder if there was some actual art scandal that I missed IRL that was the inspiration for this character.

Edited August 1, 2017 by HunterHunted

[voiceover]

Count me in on the "Duh!" realization over HEA.  Why else does anyone read a romance novel?  It's like saying you'll dabble in the horror genre, but on the condition that as close to scary as you'll get, is naming the hero "Boo".

Head's-up, Columbia: I stopped buying into your "artistic integrity" line when you said you didn't want your bosses to know.  Pfft.

And btw: the greatest purveyor of HEA was also one of the greatest writers in the English language.  How come no one trotted out Jane Austen to Mrs Tenure Wannabe?

3 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

This show seems to be coasting. 

The very thing I came to post!  This happened to me with Downton Abbey and Mad Men, too: the first couple of seasons, all undiscovered delight.  And then they became Teh Thing, and the air went out.  Agree that it's still a pleasant half hour but I'm a little saddened by my loss of interest over this season.  Esp as a Charles/Liza 'shipper.

[allonsyalice]

As a freelance ghostwriter, I'd literally kill for a contract like that, damn! Thats basically the ghostwriting dream.  I would love to write those trashy romance novels under a pseudonym while putting my name on my real loves. I think so far, I'm most interested in Kelsey's plot. i'm so glad this new guy isnt like her last ones, and shes the most interesting. I did love Liza's outfit with the red tee and denim jacket. 

[TVForever]

Wow. Just when I was starting to think Josh and Montana were really kind of cute together, Montana turned out to be AWFUL.

And I don't know why, but I'm really liking Diana more and more lately.

[luna1122]

Yeah, I was kinda digging Montana and Josh...too bad she's just a rich dilettante. That was Margaret Colin as her mom, wasn't it? I always like her. I did like Josh feeing loyalty to Maggie and letting her in on Amy's shenanigans. I also liked Josh and Liza's conversation...there was a real poignancy there, when Liza talked about being Aunt Liza to his possible future kids.

I still think Liza might wind up ghosting for the romance novels herself. Like she needs another job.

Liza, in the short stripey dress and blue strappy sandals and her hair all loose and wavy...that Liza I could buy people thinking she's not 41. Not 27, but close. It's when they pull her hair back in some of those more tortured updos that her age shows. Like most women.

Did Kelsey and Liza call each other that morning to make sure they were both wearing their best pirate wench blouses?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode

[EdnasEdibles]

They're really going to have to find a new hook for the show other than "Liza lies about her age" - because Liza is starting to really show her age. Not in a bad way! I mean, Sutton Foster is my age - I'm 41 and she's 42. I also tend to look a bit younger for my age. But like, 35. People sometimes think I'm 35.  I'll say "Well, when I turned 40 . . ." and someone will say "No way! You're 40? I thought you were like 35" - so it's not like a huge difference. I think a lot of time younger people can't figure out what 40 looks like. 

There were a few times last night where Sutton really looked her age. Gorgeous woman, aging in a lovely way. But doesn't look like someone in their 20s. 

Montana was the WORST and I'm glad Josh saw that. 

[gesundheit]

The idea of a Columbia professor being denied tenure for writing a bestselling romance novel cracked me up. Please. But I quite liked the whole Montana/Josh/Maggie storyline. I think the show sometimes forgets he's an artist himself and would definitely bristle at her situation. Way to be solid, Josh!

[Aulty]

YES, I want Maggie and Diana to finally meet and become BFFs already. #DreamTeam

Sidenote: Whats wrong with romance without a happy ending? at least every now and then.

[dubbel zout]

9 hours ago, voiceover said:

Count me in on the "Duh!" realization over HEA.  Why else does anyone read a romance novel?  

I think there could be a romance novel where the heroine doesn't end up with a man but is happy. Like she's been dating duds and realizes she's better off by herself for a while, but then on the last page she bumps into a guy at the coffee shop (or wherever) who stirs some interest.  She's single at the end, but there's some hope she'll find the right guy in the future. 

3 hours ago, luna1122 said:

That was Margaret Colin as her mom, wasn't it? I always like her.

Same here. She had some great throwaway lines, like "We just pay for her lawsuits." Heh.

3 hours ago, luna1122 said:

Did Kelsey and Liza call each other that morning to make sure they were both wearing their best pirate wench blouses?

LOL. Liza's wasn't terrible, but Kelsey's was appalling.

I liked that Kelsey's date wasn't at all put out that she stole his author. I'm curious to see if he (the author) gets more story. Her idea of having a female protagonist isn't a bad one, but that author might not be the one to write the story. It depends on how he wrote his male characters.

[Atlanta]

Does this show not get that erotica and romance are different genres? Romance isn't necessarily smutty and just like with any genre, if the author is talented, they write engaging characters. Lisa Kleypas writes amazing characters and doesn't throw in unnecessary love scenes and they aren't explicit. Sometimes readers need a break from the heavy stuff. How are they going to get away with a ghost writer writing under a dead author's name? The funeral was a big public event and I bet her death was big news.

What's up with Kelsey's sister-wives outfit and that pleated skirt Liza wore with the red top? Ew. Do they intentionally dress Liza is mish-mash outfits?

Montana's version of art is just painting an outline of a state over other people's art? Seriously? Bye Amy!

Kelsey's date is too perfect. He must have a collection of dead ex-gfs or something.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Atlanta

[dmc]

21 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

Does this show not get that erotica and romance are different genres? Romance isn't necessarily smutty and just like with any genre, if the author is talented, they write engaging characters. Lisa Kleypas writes amazing characters and doesn't throw in unnecessary love scenes and they aren't explicit. Sometimes readers need a break from the heavy stuff. How are they going to get away with a ghost writer writing under a dead author's name? The funeral was a big public event and I bet her death was big news.

What's up with Kelsey's sister-wives outfit and that pleated skirt Liza wore with the red top? Ew. Do they intentionally dress Liza is mish-mash outfits?

Montana's version of art is just painting an outline of a state over other people's art? Seriously? Bye Amy!

Kelsey's date is too perfect. He must have a collection of dead ex-gfs or something.

Liza's clothes are frequently atrocious.  I already knew that Maggie's intern was up to know good...she seemed WAY too nice.  Good for Josh...

[luna1122]

So Kelsey's pirate wench top was actually a $3000 jumpsuit. https://wornontv.net/75077/ 

Liza's was just a little crop top. https://wornontv.net/75074/

And this dress was adorable. https://wornontv.net/75080/

Kelsey's sister wife outfit was a Marc Jacobs. https://wornontv.net/75083/

Edited July 27, 2017 by luna1122

[dubbel zout]

51 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

How are they going to get away with a ghost writer writing under a dead author's name? The funeral was a big public event and I bet her death was big news.

The same way they do, for example, the Robert Ludlum books. "Robert Ludlum's [title here] by [new writer]." It's pretty common with a franchise writer the publisher wants to keep active. As long as the books are in the same genre and/or use known characters, readers don't seem to care the original writer is no longer involved.

Edited July 27, 2017 by dubbel zout

[Atlanta]

1 minute ago, dubbel zout said:

The same way they do the Robert Ludlum books. "Robert Ludlum's [title here] by [new writer]." It's pretty common with a franchise writer the publisher wants to keep active. As long as the books are in the same genre and/or use known characters, readers don't seem to care the original writer is no longer involved.

Oh ok. I thought they were literally going to try to market as the deceased writer. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Aulty said:

YES, I want Maggie and Diana to finally meet and become BFFs already. #DreamTeam

Sidenote: Whats wrong with romance without a happy ending? at least every now and then.

Like the movie "The Break Up".  Defying the genre of being a romantic comedy without the HEA.

Yes, Josh's loyalty to Maggie is nice, but he still acts that damn spineless way.  Instead of assertively saying to Montana, "I am going to tell Maggie" he just silently sits there and pretends he won't, and turns around and does it anyway.  I hate the way he communicates and operates.

He's so sanctimonious, always thinking he's acting in the "right" way but he is not assertive about it.  And was that his way of "breaking up" with Montana?  Doing something he knew she wouldn't like, and letting her do the dirty work?  I don't like Montana, she's an idiot, but I don't think Josh is some perfect guy.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Unraveled]

The overarching Romance genre has gotten a lot more diverse. There's definitely more out there than your stereotypical 1980s "bodice rippers." There's a lot more erotica out there and other sub-genres. Paranormal romance has a lot of supernatural protagonists, and it was really popular to have werewolves, vampires, etc.

However, based on the covers shown on this episode, I think the dead author was more of a stereotypical romance novel. I think it would hurt the dead author's name (and less purchases from her fans) if it went outside of her own genre.

Montana's "art" turned out to be even worse in the show. Was I missing something or was her only "input" painting a white outline of the state of Montana on other's people works?

[rho]

5 hours ago, TVForever said:

Wow. Just when I was starting to think Josh and Montana were really kind of cute together, Montana turned out to be AWFUL.

And I don't know why, but I'm really liking Diana more and more lately.

I really warmed up to her in the last episode when she pulled that high school move and approached her boyfriend's ex. She's always so put together and stoic. I love when we get to see her drop the act for a moment.

[gesundheit]

I for one know I read "Francine Pascal's Sweet Valley High" books all through the eighties and you REALLY had to dig deep to find out who actually wrote the books!

[Angeltoes]

I'm still laughing at Kelsey's indignant,"She Porky Pigged me!"  One day I'm going to somehow fit that into a conversation.  

And muffs are back in style?  Are Brazilian waxes now considered "so last year"?  (I've no idea since I never got up the nerve to get one.)

Edited July 27, 2017 by Angeltoes

[voiceover]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I think there could be a romance novel where the heroine doesn't end up with a man but is happy. 

That's not a romance novel.  That's just a novel.

[dubbel zout]

I disagree, but different strokes.

[bilgistic]

3 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Oh ok. I thought they were literally going to try to market as the deceased writer. 

 

2 hours ago, gesundheit said:

I for one know I read "Francine Pascal's Sweet Valley High" books all through the eighties and you REALLY had to dig deep to find out who actually wrote the books!

As a kid who read "Flowers in the Attic", I was so confused when I learned the author had died, yet she kept publishing sequels and prequels. I was "book smart", but not "common-sense smart" back then.

I thought Liza's red 1980s t-shirt and silver lamé skirt were hideous. I actually said out loud, "What the fuck is she wearing?" I also think her "mussed-up" hair just looks in desperate need of a brushing. It's not "beachy waves"; it's "finger in a light socket'. Awful.

[Moxie Cat]

I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who thinks the show is coasting. In my mind, they need to:

- Make progress with Liza and Charles. For two years in a row, we've had finales that tease something is really going to happen only to return to episodes that basically only have a meaningful glance or two. Enough! 

- Consider how the main plot of the show could evolve without it simply being about Liza lying to her co-workers about her age. Why can't she be a 41-year-old working with millennials and for the Millenial imprint? And explore how she can do that and the foibles along the way without the ongoing age ruse? 

And finally, romance novels are huge and have been for decades. There are way worse and more embarrassing ways to make a living. Why anyone except the most stuck-up writers would be ashamed to publish one is beyond me. I think the show was wrong on this point.

[Texasmom1970]

I effing love Debi, her cutting the painting with the switch blade best part of this episode.

Never really cared for Josh but I am glad he told Maggie. Hope this is the end of Amy/Montana. She could not even draw a decent outline of the state of Montana!

 

They really should make everyone else close to Liza aware of her real age and then have them all working to keep it a secret because of their imprint. Something to move the story in a different direction.

[interesting]

8 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Like the movie "The Break Up".  Defying the genre of being a romantic comedy without the HEA.

Yes, Josh's loyalty to Maggie is nice, but he still acts that damn spineless way.  Instead of assertively saying to Montana, "I am going to tell Maggie" he just silently sits there and pretends he won't, and turns around and does it anyway.  I hate the way he communicates and operates.

He's so sanctimonious, always thinking he's acting in the "right" way but he is not assertive about it.  And was that his way of "breaking up" with Montana?  Doing something he knew she wouldn't like, and letting her do the dirty work?  I don't like Montana, she's an idiot, but I don't think Josh is some perfect guy.

I kind of understand why Josh did what he did, maybe he doesn't really like confrontation until it's absolutely necessary?  But, I agree about him being spineless, not wanting to confront Montana/Amy is one thing, but being wishy washy about telling Maggie or not really brings him down in my eyes.  But I'm not that crazy about Josh as a character anyway.

And Sutton Foster makeup is declining, and her wardrobe isn't helping her to look like someone in their late 20's.  I think they may use way too much foundation on her face, I really think she looks young when she and Kelsey were at that retreat with no cellular.  And the clothes they wear are kind of hideous, that lolita-inspired pink dress Kelsey had on was pure straight up ugly, it doesn't matter for me if Marc Jacobs name is on it, it's still pretty horrible.

[BkWurm1]

9 hours ago, Aulty said:

 

Sidenote: Whats wrong with romance without a happy ending? at least every now and then.

 

Nothing wrong with a story about a romance ending without a happy ending.  Bridges of Madison County was huge and lots of people love Nicholas Spark's books.  They just aren't really Romance novels since to BE in the Romance genre, you have to have at least a positive or hopeful romantic ending.  Otherwise it breaks the contract between the reader.  I'd be equally annoyed if at the end of a mystery novel, the detective shrugs and walks away without revealing whodunit.

The murky part of this subject is a lot of times to make searches easier, books are sometimes tagged as a part of a genre when what is really meant is they have that subject as part of a storyline, not that they are a real Romance novel, but I'm not talking about those more generic novels and neither was the show.  It was clearly the old fashioned Romance.  They even broke out out the kind of heaving bosom cover I haven't seen in ages.   

Those books come with a promise to the reader and not delivering the HEA breaks it.  

I actually just finished a well written book by a writer that in that past had primarily written romantic suspense Romances and thought that was what I was getting again but it turned out what she'd actually written was the first book of a what seemed clearly was going to be a serialized thriller/action story and while it was fine for that genre, I was pissed to be left hanging when I'd picked it out thinking it was something totally different.  And I'm going to hold a grudge for the bait and switch.  

[Atlanta]

31 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Nothing wrong with a story about a romance ending without a happy ending.  Bridges of Madison County was huge and lots of people love Nicholas Spark's books.  They just aren't really Romance novels since to BE in the Romance genre, you have to have at least a positive or hopeful romantic ending.  Otherwise it breaks the contract between the reader.  I'd be equally annoyed if at the end of a mystery novel, the detective shrugs and walks away without revealing whodunit.

The murky part of this subject is a lot of times to make searches easier, books are sometimes tagged as a part of a genre when what is really meant is they have that subject as part of a storyline, not that they are a real Romance novel, but I'm not talking about those more generic novels and neither was the show.  It was clearly the old fashioned Romance.  They even broke out out the kind of heaving bosom cover I haven't seen in ages.   

Those books come with a promise to the reader and not delivering the HEA breaks it.  

I actually just finished a well written book by a writer that in that past had primarily written romantic suspense Romances and thought that was what I was getting again but it turned out what she'd actually written was the first book of a what seemed clearly was going to be a serialized thriller/action story and while it was fine for that genre, I was pissed to be left hanging when I'd picked it out thinking it was something totally different.  And I'm going to hold a grudge for the bait and switch.  

Yes! If I'm reading a mystery, the mystery needs to be solved by the end of it. Romance works the same way. Someone earlier mentioned Jane Austen. I'd hardly call her low rate. Books need a resolution. 

Beginning to believe Pat Field hates this cast by how she dresses them.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Atlanta

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

I would've really loved, if instead of being a Romance genre snob, Columbia would've said "You know, all kinds of readers love HEAs, so I'd like for every third manuscript I do to feature a POC/interracial/queer/trans romance as the primary couple." That way, niche markets of the genre could enjoy some mainstream exposure, and the target demographic could get hooked on pairings they'd not hitherto been exposed to. 

[Superpole2000]

10 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Kelsey's date is too perfect. He must have a collection of dead ex-gfs or something.

Yes, I find it annoying to watch how some of the men on this show are portrayed as some sort of perfect beast (tall, attractive, rich/successful, well-dressed, caring, helpful, etc.). Of course, with this show creator's history, I am sure they'll tell us next week that her boyfriend has a huge penis and can give Kelsey countless orgasms just by snapping his fingers. It's just not interesting! Give us something a little more balanced and intriguing. Your line about the dead exes is probably bang-on with how they'll drop the other shoe on this guy. Perfect but for one outlandishly over the top flaw...like maybe he bangs sheep too.

And on a similar note, another episode, another chance to tell us how attractive Josh is. This time it was Montana's mother. I really do think this is in the actor's contract now because it has happened in over half the episodes and never feels like something organic to the conversational setting.

[Aulty]

11 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

- Make progress with Liza and Charles. For two years in a row, we've had finales that tease something is really going to happen only to return to episodes that basically only have a meaningful glance or two. Enough!

I second that. Just get them together already - at least for a few episodes. They are clearly ready to jump each others bones and I can't stand another teaser finale that leads nowhere.

It seems I'm in a minority because I quite like Liza's wardrobe. Mixing vintage and young modern to avoid highlighting the age in her face. However I agree with what someone said earlier, that she looks younger with her hair down. Her up-dos make her look older.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

OF COURSE Montana is the kind of spoiled rich girl named Amy who moves to Brooklyn and pretends to be poor by working at a coffee shop. I was surprised that all Maggie did was slash her painting. When she pulled out that knife, I thought she was going to cut the entire canvas from the frame and take it with her.

My major nitpick of the night was when Kelsey told Zane that taking her to a cigar club was douchey. Girl, you were engaged to Thad, King of the Douchebags. In comparison, Zane is beyond classy. This was the second week in a row that one of her outfits made me think WTF is she wearing? This week it was the 80s version of the Little House on the Prairie dress but with some added sequins - HIDEOUS. Hilary Duff is pretty but sometimes between the clothes and the hair, they make her look so much older than she really is.

I am one of the people who loathes the ghostwriting stuff in real life. I remember how disappointed I was when VC Andrews died but her family hired a ghostwriter to recycle the Heaven series with different names ad nauseum (every series after Heaven has the exact same plot: poor girl finds out her poor family isn't her birth family, is reunited with her rich family, finds out that her birth mother is crazy, her birth sister is a slutty jealous bitch, and her birth brother wants to have sex with her, then eventually she goes back to her true love, the boy who she thought was her poor brother).

20 hours ago, Atlanta said:

How are they going to get away with a ghost writer writing under a dead author's name? The funeral was a big public event and I bet her death was big news.

The family just claims that the author had a stash of unpublished stories written before she died!

18 hours ago, gesundheit said:

I for one know I read "Francine Pascal's Sweet Valley High" books all through the eighties and you REALLY had to dig deep to find out who actually wrote the books!

Yes! Same with the Trixie Belden books, the Babysitters Club, and more recently, the Vampire Diaries series. Of course, now with the internet it's easier to start digging around and find out that there were ghostwriters but back in the olden days, it wasn't as easy to find out!

17 hours ago, Angeltoes said:

I'm still laughing at Kelsey's indignant,"She Porky Pigged me!"  One day I'm going to somehow fit that into a conversation. 

[kirinan]

20 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I think there could be a romance novel where the heroine doesn't end up with a man but is happy. Like she's been dating duds and realizes she's better off by herself for a while, but then on the last page she bumps into a guy at the coffee shop (or wherever) who stirs some interest.  She's single at the end, but there's some hope she'll find the right guy in the future. 

There is a happy ending known as HFN, Happy For Now, in the genre. That happens a lot in chick lit-style romance. (Aspiring sweet romance writer and member of the Romance Writers of America here. And I HATE that this show perpetuated the stereotype of romance novels being trash or something to be ashamed of. Pick on another genre for a change!)

Edited July 28, 2017 by kirinan

[BkWurm1]

You'd be surprised by the number of series on Amazon that are actually just ghost writers.   I have a friend that has been supporting herself (scraping by below the poverty level) the last couple years off of just writing Shiek stories.  Apparently that's still a thing.  The authors with the bio on Amazon write nothing.  They don't even exist.  Someone gets a bunch of starving writers, gives them a general outline, pays them almost nothing, and gets the complete rights to their works.  It's a volume business to them.  And the ghost writers somehow remain convinced they wouldn't be able to strike out on their own.  She's now written more than twenty stories and will get zero credit.  It's pretty much robbery through desperation.  

[luna1122]

God, I love Andrew Rannells. Who would do that, seriously? If you know there are other roomies in the house? I mean, it's one thing if it's a long T-shirt that covers the ass, or whatever, but wearing a short tee that leaves the bum and muff/dick exposed, just walking around? I can't really figure out why you'd wander around like that, ever, but especially no when other people are around. I'd hate Montana too, for that one, if there weren't other reasons.

[gesundheit]

I think the fashion on this show is often ridiculous, but of course that's in line with SaTC and this style of show. I have a ton of friends who work in publishing and they would NOT be allowed to wear those outfits to work, so it cracks me up to see the ladies in crop tops and bizarre skirts with everything hanging out next to all the men in suits and ties in that office. But... TV. Looking at the clothes is half the point in a show like this.

[Hanahope]

I thought it was a a great show of maturity by Josh.  Yes Maggie was "sortof" a friend, but she was Liza's friend/roommate and he could have easily turned away.  but he saw that "montana" was really just using Maggie, it was obvious she was the type of person that wouldn't given a rat's ass about dating the ex of Maggie's roommate.

Do people really appropriate other people's art like that?  Montana compared it to "sampling" that's done in music, but at least from the songs I've heard, the "sampling" is a few seconds of a familiar rift, used a couple of times, with an entire new song (new lyrics and music) written around the 'sampling.'  Its not using essentially the entire old song and adding a slightly different beginning, end or a middle few seconds, which is my opinion as to what montana was doing, simply painting the outline of a state on top of an entire other work of art.

Does Kelsey's reference to Montana "porky pieing" her (which i didn't think millenials even knew who Porky Pie was anymore) with her "muff" showing mean that pubic hair is back in fashion again?  After her and Lauren shamed Liza for having one in season 1.

I haven't read a "romance" novel in decades (well, except I suppose Twilight), unless the Laurell K. Hamilton books count (and frankly I mostly gloss over the sex stuff), but the library doesn't put those in the "romance" section, so maybe not.  I was sortof surprised Empire was having trouble finding a good ghost author.  I liked the historical fiction/romance novels when I was younger, but I did get tired of the same ole, same old plot line.

[rho]

31 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Do people really appropriate other people's art like that?  Montana compared it to "sampling" that's done in music, but at least from the songs I've heard, the "sampling" is a few seconds of a familiar rift, used a couple of times, with an entire new song (new lyrics and music) written around the 'sampling.'  Its not using essentially the entire old song and adding a slightly different beginning, end or a middle few seconds, which is my opinion as to what montana was doing, simply painting the outline of a state on top of an entire other work of art.

Amy/Montana is out of her fucking mind! There is definitely a place for derivative artists in the postmodern art world but it's got to be a whole lot more than painting the outline of a state over an actual work of art. And even with major deconstruction, lots of those artists are often mocked for regurgitating the work of someone better.

It is absolutely nothing like sampling music. For one, the original artist usually gets a 5-figure sum for the contribution. All of those paintings were gifts from people she conned. She's an asshole and her parents are dumb fucks for allowing this to continue. I can't believe their upper crust society friends haven't shunned them for abusing their connections.

But unfortunately this one-off character was more interesting than anything that's happened this season :(

I need more Diana antics!!!

[Hanahope]

Well, at least Maggie got some notice for the incident, and maybe she'll get a new show out of it.

34 minutes ago, rho said:

 

I need more Diana antics!!!

Definitely.

[Atlanta]

I'm waiting for Diana and Maggie to meet.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I'm waiting for Diana and Maggie to meet.

I feel like the entire thing would be dynamite. 

Also, are Liza and Kelsey dressed by learning disabled monkeys in the morning before they go to work?  The dress Kelsey wore in the office was just awful.  It made her look two sizes larger than she is, it was a weird fabric and design.  And Liza's t-shirt and multi-colored plastic looking long skirt was just wrong. 

Quote

Amy/Montana is out of her fucking mind! There is definitely a place for derivative artists in the postmodern art world but it's got to be a whole lot more than painting the outline of a state over an actual work of art. And even with major deconstruction, lots of those artists are often mocked for regurgitating the work of someone better.

I was really trying to figure out to whom her work was supposed to appeal.   It's a poorly drawn state of Montana over someone else's work.   The idea of using someone else's work to make a different work is an interesting concept, but that's not really what Montana was doing.  It just seemed pretty lazy.     

Edited July 29, 2017 by txhorns79

[Atlanta]

"Younger" has gone off the rails and insulted their viewers. Pat Field needs to be fired and the writers need to rethink things. Yes, Suttons looks young for her age, but, as another poster mentioned, an actress like Candace C Bure or Danica McKellar would have been better cast. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Outtakes:

[Snarklepuss]

On 7/27/2017 at 0:41 PM, luna1122 said:

Kelsey's sister wife outfit was a Marc Jacobs. https://wornontv.net/75083/

To my aging eye it looked positively '70s Gunne Sax.  I don't think Kelsey's character would ever be caught dead in that style nor would pretty much any self respecting woman in NYC, and I thought that back in the '70s too, LOL.
 

On 7/27/2017 at 1:30 PM, Unraveled said:

Montana's "art" turned out to be even worse in the show. Was I missing something or was her only "input" painting a white outline of the state of Montana on other's people works?

No, I don't think you were missing anything.  I think it's just another one of Darren Star's pokes at the often absurd out-there art culture in NY.  Like when Carrie in SATC went with Mikhail Baryshnikov to an art exhibit that consisted of a woman sitting in a room for days on end with nothing to do.  Only in Younger's case it was also a poke at rich trust fund Millennial entitlement as well.  Having known of people a little like this in Brooklyn, it's not really all that far off the mark, especially with her feigning humble origins and working in a coffee shop, LOL.  Truth is still stranger than fiction.
 

On 7/27/2017 at 7:46 PM, Moxie Cat said:

I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who thinks the show is coasting. In my mind, they need to:

- Make progress with Liza and Charles. For two years in a row, we've had finales that tease something is really going to happen only to return to episodes that basically only have a meaningful glance or two. Enough!

ITA.  It's probably even too late at this point to make them have a hot steamy affair to liven things up.  They've teased us so much with it that it would feel anticlimactic by now if it finally happened.  And nobody wanted to see that happen more than me!  I still want it but I don't think they're handling it too well.  They're taking too long to build up to it.
 

On 7/28/2017 at 1:44 PM, Hanahope said:

Do people really appropriate other people's art like that?  Montana compared it to "sampling" that's done in music, but at least from the songs I've heard, the "sampling" is a few seconds of a familiar rift, used a couple of times, with an entire new song (new lyrics and music) written around the 'sampling.'  Its not using essentially the entire old song and adding a slightly different beginning, end or a middle few seconds, which is my opinion as to what montana was doing, simply painting the outline of a state on top of an entire other work of art.

At best, "sampling" in music is how you've defined it.  At worst it's pretty much ripping off a "hook" melody from a famous hit and playing it over and over again with nothing new added except for a brief "bridge" or something to break it up a little.  I hear both regularly on Sirius XM.
 

On 7/28/2017 at 8:38 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

OF COURSE Montana is the kind of spoiled rich girl named Amy who moves to Brooklyn and pretends to be poor by working at a coffee shop. I was surprised that all Maggie did was slash her painting. When she pulled out that knife, I thought she was going to cut the entire canvas from the frame and take it with her.

I cheered when she did that!  I think Maggie represents how every spunky native New York woman over a certain age who's had to bust their rear ends to make it in their careers would feel about all the spoiled Montanas even if it's not their painting, LOL!  I had a vicarious rush from that, I must admit.  I have serious issues with all the Montanas that have descended on my beloved city and made it over in their own image.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[Eri]

I think there should be a Younger "Fashion Horror" thread because these comments are hilarious.

Maggie's vengeance was the best part of this episode but I did cringe a little to see Josh lack the backbone needed to stand up for what is right. I'd have been pissed if I was introduced to a parent without warning.

I almost suspected that the reason Kelsey's guy wasn't too bothered was because he stole one of her authors in return. Still waiting for the ball to drop on that one but I hope it's not too devastating, I want his cute face to show for at least a few more episodes.

"Of course, I carry panties and a toothbrush in my purse, I'm a New Yorker!"

I live in NYC and that had me rolling *snort*

Edited July 30, 2017 by Eri

[Angeltoes]

What was he doing in her purse was my first thought.

[bilgistic]

2 hours ago, Eri said:

I'd have been pissed if I was introduced to a parent without warning.

This just reminded me of when I was in my early 20s, I went out with a guy I met at the bar/club. We were going to dinner, but for some reason, he had to first stop at his MOM'S WORKPLACE COOKOUT. He acted like it was only going to be a few minutes. We get there and HIS WHOLE FAMILY IS THERE. Like, his dad, his sisters, sisters' kids, sisters' spouses, the whole damn family tree. I've hung out with this dude for a few hours on the dance floor and now I'm meeting his whole freaking family! Then! They proceed to tell the guy to get a plate AND HE DOES. Instead of saying, "Bilgistic and I are on a date and we're going to eat. Bye," dude gets a plate full of hamburger, hot dog, baked beans, the works, and invites me to do the same. I'M A VEGETARIAN. I ate a handful of chips.

When we FINALLY leave, he takes me on a driving tour of all the multi-million-dollar houses that he's landscaped. I'm starving and he's showing me trees and pavers. It eventually got dark enough that the tour was over and he took me back to my car at his apartment. I left as fast as I could and ignored his calls for the next two weeks. He saw me at the club again one night maybe a month later, and I bolted in the other direction.