S07.E02: Stormborn

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

Has she mentioned how she took Joffrey's and Cersei's side over Arya? 

Well she didn't, In book she backed up her sister's story to Ned, in show they bypassed it.

Writers had Ned explain that Sansa has to take Joffery's side no matter what.

 Arrya asked how can you let her marry someone like that; Ned had no answer.

Cerrsei would demand Arya be punished ( usually lost of hand )Robert may not go that far, but Cersei would,.

Cersei opted for killing a wolf, any wolf.

Sansa tried to play the middle not going against anyone and got burned. 

Her sister and betrothed put her in a no win situation.

[bunnyblue]

My acting MVP's are Maisie Williams and Alfie Allen. Good lord, they express so much with their eyes and facial expressions. 

I absolutely loved how Arya's face completely changed as soon as she heard Jon was at Winterfell. Her face softened and her eyes went wild and she just couldn't get the hell out of there fast enough. My heart melted knowing the one person who would cause her to drop her kill list is her beloved brother. My beautiful girl, she's not entirely lost. Too bad they will miss each other. Grrrrr. The reunion with Nymeria was awesome and heartbreaking. I sooo wanted Nymeria to stay and follow Arya north but like Arya said, that's not her anymore. She can't be anyone's pet after living in the wilds for so many years and basically becoming Queen of the wolves. I will hold on to the hope that Nymeria will eventually go north with her pack and save Arya and the Starks when things go sideways during the Great War; D&D, after all, love their last minutes saves.

Oh, Theon. There was never any way a couple pints of ale and a Yara pep talk was going to undo the years of damage Ramsay inflicted. Poor Theon tried though; he kept it together when Euron & Tyrion insulted him and when conversing with Dany and Ellaria, but Reek was always just twitching beneath the surface. I loved seeing him holding his own during the sea battle; in the past, we only ever saw him with the bow and arrow, but not surprising he's still a good swordsman - all of Ser Rodrik's pupils are/were. But then all the carnage, savagery, and hopelessness was too much for his damaged mind and Reek emerged with a vengeance for Euron and Yara to see. Alfie did this thing with his face when Reek took over that was heartbreaking for me and apparently for Yara because that's when her lone tear fell. But really, there was nothing Theon could do at that point to save her; Euron would slash her throat and kill Theon. This way, at least I hope, Theon can attempt a rescue of Yara in the future. Similar to Arya turning north for Jon, I think Theon will find his courage for the one person he loves the most - his sister.

Watching Euron go total berserker, all I could think was that Jon could use someone like him against the White Walkers and the wights. Euron would have the time of his life cutting up the undead.

I didn't hate the Sand Snakes, I was more indifferent to them, so I felt bad for Nymeria when she let out an agonized scream as she watched her sister die. But, seriously, did Oberyn never teach Nymeria how to use a sword?? Who the hell brings a whip to a swordfight? I think Obara and Nym got off easy; Ellaria and Tyene are going to wish they died on that ship once Cersei and Qyburn get their hands of 'em. 

Shallow note: Iain Glen has a fine muscular body for a man his age. Maybe if Dany had ever seen him undressed, she would've given Ser Friendzone a chance.

Still love hearing Jon referred to as "Your Grace" and "My King". Even Littlefinger called him that; though I know that was just his usual buttering-up bullshit. Speaking of LF, I noticed in the great hall that his usual bored expression changed when he heard the news of Tyrion being Dany's Hand. I'd love to see Tyrion's and Varys's reaction when/if they learn Littlefinger has wormed his way into the Starks' home and inner circle.

Edited July 24, 2017 by bunnyblue

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, KungFuBunny said:

When Ned Stark and his children first found the Direwolf and the litter they found 5 dark pups - and then they heard another cry. The pup was white and given to John - that's why he named his Direwolf "Ghost"

 

He's named Ghost because he's white and silenced, Ghost never makes a noise in book, bit harder in show.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

The only way to be sure Cersei dies is to torch the whole city.

That's not a guarantee, there are over 50 tunnels leaving out of the keep.

BOBW: Vary's brings the map to Tyrion, Tyrion gave the speech those are brave men out there; lets go kill them. 

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I know some think it's the throne room on Dragonstone

Really !?

[Maximum Taco]

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

That's not a guarantee, there are over 50 tunnels leaving out of the keep.

BOBW: Vary's brings the map to Tyrion, Tyrion gave the speech those are brave men out there; lets go kill them. 

It's pretty much a guarantee.

If she torches the entire city until the stones crack and the river boils Cersei is dead.

The number of paths out of the keep is immaterial at that point, there could be 1000, they all empty out somewhere in the city.

[YaddaYadda]

The actor who plays Qyburn (lazy to go search for a name), I don't know if it's the lighting, but the character always has that glint of crazy going on in his eyes. He and Cersei are a match made in hell and now Euron has joined that party.

They started name dropping yesterday. We got one Rhaegar mention and I think 3 or 4 Aerys's mentions. 

41 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Also, the books point to the fact that Varys has always been working toward a Targ restoration.  

He isn't, and neither is Illyrio. What's Illyrio's interest in Westeros and what happens there? And Varys whispered enough in Aerys's ear that he ended up going to the tourney of Harrenhal where his son may or may not have been conspiring to call a great council and have him removed from the throne. Every time Varys says he works for the good of the realm, I wanna reach in my book and slap him. Viserys and Dany were expendable for him, and he and Illyrio thought that Dany would never survive the Dothraki sea. They sold a thirteen year old to buy a foreign invading army for her batshit crazy brother, believing she would just die. Their only interest in her is that everyone and their mother know Aerys's unquestionable, last Targaryen, trueborn daughter is in Essos and she hatched herself three dragons.

Varys is a dick. 

[that one guy]

17 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

But then all the carnage, savagery, and hopelessness was too much for his damaged mind and Reek emerged with a vengeance for Euron and Yara to see. Alfie did this thing with his face when Reek took over that was heartbreaking for me and apparently for Yara because that's when her lone tear fell. But really, there was nothing Theon could do at that point to save her; Euron would slash her throat and kill Theon. This way, at least I hope, Theon can attempt a rescue of Yara in the future.

This is why I'm disappointed that the action in the sea battle wasn't more legible. I couldn't tell what was going on, so it wasn't clear to me whether there was anything Theon could reasonably do or not. I didn't really see a way for him to attack Euron without harming his sister, who was between them with an axe to her throat. He could have skewered them both like a crazed Viking shish kabob I guess.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Maximum Taco said:

It's pretty much a guarantee.

If she torches the entire city until the stones crack and the river boils Cersei is dead.

The number of paths out of the keep is immaterial at that point, there could be 1000, they all empty out somewhere in the city.

No, those tunnels are quite deep and some lead out a rather long distance, there is no guarantee, except much destruction.

How many times have people been targeted with missiles and survived, even with the building crumbled all around them? 

[Blonde Gator]

43 minutes ago, domina89 said:

No, the wolf that died was named for Ghost- he was not the dog/wolf that plays Ghost in the series.

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/george-martin-pays-tribute-wolf-dog-named-ghost-article-1.3190142

Thanks for that info.  I read that "Ghost" died as well, and thought it was Quigley, the Canadian wolf, who had passed.  Apparently Quigley is still alive and kicking, although he's now 11, so he's getting a white, white muzzle these days, I'd suppose.  But it's all good.

[Blonde Gator]

10 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

The actor who plays Qyburn (lazy to go search for a name), I don't know if it's the lighting, but the character always has that glint of crazy going on in his eyes. He and Cersei are a match made in hell and now Euron has joined that party.

They started name dropping yesterday. We got one Rhaegar mention and I think 3 or 4 Aerys's mentions. 

He isn't, and neither is Illyrio. What's Illyrio's interest in Westeros and what happens there? And Varys whispered enough in Aerys's ear that he ended up going to the tourney of Harrenhal where his son may or may not have been conspiring to call a great council and have him removed from the throne. Every time Varys says he works for the good of the realm, I wanna reach in my book and slap him. Viserys and Dany were expendable for him, and he and Illyrio thought that Dany would never survive the Dothraki sea. They sold a thirteen year old to buy a foreign invading army for her batshit crazy brother, believing she would just die. Their only interest in her is that everyone and their mother know Aerys's unquestionable, last Targaryen, trueborn daughter is in Essos and she hatched herself three dragons.

Varys is a dick. 

Of course you can disagree, but I just don't see it.  What has Varys been doing all this time if NOT working for a Targ restoration?  The show never gets into the backstory too deeply, but Varys and Mopatis have been friends in crime since their childhoods.  Arya heard them discussing the last Hand of the King, and implying this one (Ned) wouldn't do any better, back in Season 1 when she was chasing cats through the dungeons, at the behest of her dancing master, Syrio Florel

I think Varys is just the ultimate pragmatist.  He was hoping to replace Aerys with Rhaegar.  That didn't work.  So next up in a Targ restoration, after everything went to Hell as a result of the misadventures of the Tourney at Harrenhall, was Viserys as the next potential Targ ruler, with fAegon and Dany as back-ups to the back up plan.  Dany as the ultimate ruler was not really ever on his radar, she was rather expendable (hence the marriage to Khal Drogo, aided and abetted by Illyrio Mopatis), and Varys's order to the assassins in Essos to murder Dany.  Dany not only survived the Dothraki Sea (and an assassin), she came out of it with 3 live dragons, and the drive to not only rule, but spend the time to learn HOW to rule.   AND we still have missing Blackfyres in book ASOIAF.  I don't recall we've ever even been told about the Dance of Dragons in the show, nor does fAegon exist.  The Blackfyres don't/didn't exist within the 2nd sons, where it could have been mentioned.  There is just so much false flag information in this story, that all will not be revealed until the last page of A Dream of Spring, if and when that ever happens.  *sigh*

[TarotQueen]

6 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Nearly lost in all the Jon propping to Dany was Varys talking about how Robert's failure as a king was that he never wanted to be one and then several scenes later we get Jon declaring yet again that he never wanted to be king.  Maybe it means something, maybe it doesn't.    But it's hard not to wonder when Robert's entire story arc seemed to be about the very big difference between winning a throne and the actual day to day sitting on it. 

Like you said, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but it seems like the ways of not wanting to be king are pretty different.  Robert wanted power to do anything he wanted, he just didn't want responsibility for anything else.  Jon is pretty opposite that ... he usually only moves towards taking power because he feels strongly that someone taking responsibility for a situation is imminently necessary.

But you did say maybe either way so ... :) 

[Raachel2008]

8 hours ago, GrailKing said:

but he does need to listen to Sansa more then he did last week, I think he did better this week, but he has a wee bit more to go.

 Last week Jon did listen to Sansa when she said what she thought was the correct punishment for the Karstarks and Numbers. He didn't agree with her AND some of the Northern Lords, and did something she AND some of the Northern Lords didn't want. He listened when she told him about Cersei, but his priorioty is - and will always be - the war against the WWs. This week Jon again listened to Sansa AND Lyanna AND the Northern Lords, who were all agaisnt Jon heading South. He made his mind, explained his thinking process and went to meet Dany, while putting Sansa in charge. Honestly, you don't want Jon to listen to Sansa, you want Jon to do what Sansa wants. 

 

8 hours ago, GrailKing said:

but the final say will be Sansa's alone.

Assuming we'll ever get that point - Sansa getting married - the final say is hers alone only if she is not someone's subject.  Jon or Bran would never want to force Sansa to marry someone, but say Dany sits on the Iron Throne and decide to unite House by marriage, neither Jon or Bran would have a real say on this. Least of all, Sansa.

7 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Nearly lost in all the Jon propping to Dany was Varys talking about how Robert's failure as a king was that he never wanted to be one and then several scenes later we get Jon declaring yet again that he never wanted to be king.  Maybe it means something, maybe it doesn't.    But it's hard not to wonder when Robert's entire story arc seemed to be about the very big difference between winning a throne and the actual day to day sitting on it. 

I don't think it was about Jon, but Dany herself: why do you want to be queen other than being the 'rightful' heir? Varys' point is that he wants a king or queen who rules for the people. It was, IMO, more about the whole 'Dany is a conquer, not a ruler' than anything else. When you get throne, what are you going to do with it? 

There is a scene in season 1 where Cersei asks Robert how Lyanna looked like - or something like that - and he says 'I don't remember her face, I just know she was the only thing I've ever wanted in my life'. I'm firm on the camp that Robert never wanted to rule, he wanted a) to avenge Lyanna's being 'kidnapped' by Rhaegar and her death, b) kill Rhaegar himself, c) end Aerys - all those things were tied, as we, because he himself said it, seven kingdoms couldn't fill the void of Lyanna's loss, blah blah. When in season 1 Robert asked Ned why he didn't seize the throne back then, for me it was clear that for a nanosecond he wishing Ned had been the ruling.

 

3 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Yes, this is bugging the crap out of me. They are skewing the narrative to be that the Lannisters killed Oberyn and the Dornish want revenge, when really, he went and got himself killed.

Never mind conveniently forgetting that Ellaria killed her Prince and his heir in her quest to revenge a death that was not the Lannisters' fault. And, as always, it would have been so easy to fix it, all they needed was for Ellaria's revenge be also about Elia Martell and her kids. 'We are avenging Dorne, we are avenging every Martell who has suffered in the Lannisters' hands'.

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Which is why Tyrion's advice about not storming in with the Unsullied and the Dothraki was accurate.  The nobles and the peasants of Westerosi all have a natural inclination against the foreign invaders and are more likely to prefer the devil they know. 

Not only that but the Dothraki reputation is a real thing, remember Robert talking to Cersei about them? They are probably what Westeros' parents tell their children 'behave or the Dothraki will come'.

1 hour ago, taanja said:

She reminded me of the Hound eating. Same mannerisms. Same crudeness. Even the same way he gulps down ale. Which makes me want a Hound and Arya reunion. Stat.

It has been YEARS since Arya had someone to teach her manners. Plust, she was starving.

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

 I have had a soft spot for Indira Varma ever since she appeared on "Rome", her Niobe didn't deserve that death.

You kidding? Her death and Vorenus/Kevin Mckidd heartbreak over it was one of the best scenes in 'Rome'.

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

Jon nodding to Her Badassery when she spoke against his idea was sweet.

Awww.

[that one guy]

6 hours ago, screamin said:

7 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Umm... she gets The North?  She wants to rules the Seven Kingdoms and The North is the largest of the Seven Kingdoms.

My point was she gets no practical material advantage to winning her war. Jon can't give her any soldiers for her to fight with, he can't spare them. An impressive coalition on paper is a poor substitute for actual military support. In actual numbers and military might Euron would be a better bet (not that I think Dany would take him either, especially now).

Her goal is to unite the 7 kingdoms. The North and the Vale are two of those kingdoms and currently call Jon their king. If she can bring them into the fold through marriage, she doesn't have to invade. The Eyrie is damn near impregnable, and the North has never been conquered by a southern army.  It's not about what resources Jon brings to the fight against the Lannisters, it's about what resources Dany can save by not having to fight north of the Neck. She controls the southernmost kingdoms, at least nominally. Jon controls the northernmost. Cersei has the center, a swath from the Iron Islands through the Westerlands to King's Landing and the Stormlands, although the Riverlands appear to actually be total chaos at this point. A wedding is cheaper than a war, and there's really nobody else left for her to marry - Euron's thrown in with Cersei and anyway everyone hates the Ironborn, Edmure Tully has no army at all and is already married, she already has the Reach and Dorne, House Baratheon is gone so there's no Lord of Storm's End. She could legitimize Gendry I guess and claim he's Lord of Storm's End, but he's a blacksmith. The Storm Lords aren't just going to follow him just because he's Robert's son and Dany says so. If she conquered the kingdom she could name him Lord Baratheon, but as it is now he's even a less impressive match than Edmure. So Jon doesn't bring many resources, but he actually controls some territory and has the support of the local nobility. Plus, the realm fell apart following the execution of Ned Stark, an alliance with Winterfell brings considerable political benefit. Her allies right now, Dorne and the Reach, are in some ways predictable, since those kingdoms allied themselves with her father against Robert. But Houses Stark, Tully and Arryn backed Robert. Bringing them even nominally into the coalition makes this a conflict not about re-fighting the last war, but about everybody's grievances against the Lannisters. Cersei wants to portray this struggle as resisting a foreign invasion, Danaerys wants to portray it as an attempt to overthrow an unjust, corrupt and incompetent regime. It's not a democracy, but politics are still important. Look at Lord Tarly - which story he believes will determine which side he fights on (he's likely to get his Warden of the South gig from either side so long as he fights for the winners - House Tyrell appears to be gone for good). Does his hatred of foreigners outweigh his outrage at the backstabbing Lannisters killing the Tyrells?

Dany: "Cersei sucks."

Cersei: "When the Dothraki Sea sends its people, they're not sending their best. ... They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

Dany: "She blew up the Great Sept and killed the Pope."

Cersei: "She crucifies people, burns them alive, and feeds them to dragons. Sure, she says she's against slavery now, but the last time she ran for Queen, she and her late Dothraki husband burned, raped and pillaged whole villages to sell their inhabitants into slavery. Flip flopper!"

Dany: "My position on slavery has evolved since then."

Cersei: "Flip. Flop."

Tarly: "Which attractive blonde mass murderer should I fight for? Why are the candidates so bad?"

The support of Ned Stark's bastard might be enough to tip the scales for fence sitters. 

[stillshimpy]

3 hours ago, Kathemy said:

Can you tell me one time in the history of mankind where "foreign army invades your homeland" has been pleasant for the local population?

Just as an aside:  In our real world history, that's happened kind of a lot where it's been a good thing.  It's just usually referred to as liberating, vs. invading but the occupying force being driven out by an opposing army has been viewed positively on more than one occasion.  For instance, in World War II the Germans/Third Reich/Nazis occupied a lot of places for years and then they were liberated by allied forces.  

A lot's going to depend on how the ruling force is viewed by the citizens.  In Cersei's case, let's just be concise and leave it at:  she's unlikely to be popular because it's been a shitstorm of chaos for years.  

Also, for sheer, "Opera much?" Euron descending via a snaggle-toothed drawbridge like some kind of demented Psycho ex Machina was good for a grin, even if I'm really not warming to the actor at all and honestly, the entire "...with less than two minutes full notice, an entire armada snuck in amongst us" just made me roll my eyes.   I did like the ridiculously theatrical entrance though.   Somehow it went from "Oh for goodness sake, that's....okay, yes, still stupid, but at least it just took a turn for the darkly comedic" .  It was like the Drowned God spit him back or something.  

[YaddaYadda]

31 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Of course you can disagree, but I just don't see it. 

Of course. None of us are sheep ;)

We should meet back here in 20 years when Winds finally comes out. 

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Assuming we'll ever get that point - Sansa getting married - the final say is hers alone only if she is not someone's subject.  Jon or Bran would never want to force Sansa to marry someone, but say Dany sits on the Iron Throne and decide to unite House by marriage, neither Jon or Bran would have a real say on this. Least of all, Sansa.

7 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I don't think she's going to be anyone's subject, and if anyone puts demands on her she'll oppose it.

Her choice will be her free will or best of maybe not so great choices, but still hers.

just my opinon.

11 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Honestly, you don't want Jon to listen to Sansa, you want Jon to do what Sansa wants. 

No.

12 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

You kidding? Her death and Vorenus/Kevin Mckidd heartbreak over it was one of the best scenes in 'Rome'.

Yeah ,so tragic.

Wished HBO was brave enough to continue it.

[screamin]

26 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Of course you can disagree, but I just don't see it.  What has Varys been doing all this time if NOT working for a Targ restoration?  The show never gets into the backstory too deeply, but Varys and Mopatis have been friends in crime since their childhoods.  Arya heard them discussing the last Hand of the King, and implying this one (Ned) wouldn't do any better, back in Season 1 when she was chasing cats through the dungeons, at the behest of her dancing master, Syrio Florel

I think Varys is just the ultimate pragmatist.  He was hoping to replace Aerys with Rhaegar.  That didn't work.  

I am pretty sure it's book canon that Varys was actually working actively against Rhaegar's interests...who, after all, was the source of the info that Rhaegar was planning to get the lords' support for a palace coup at Harrenhal except Varys? I'm also pretty sure that in the books Varys actively fostered Aerys' paranoia against his son. His aim wasn't getting Rhaegar onto the throne. Nor Viserys or Dany. It was fAegon - who IMO isn't of course Rhaegar's son, but likely Ilyrio's son by his most-loved wife, who MAYBE had a bit of Targaryen blood, but not so much she could be considered a contender for the Iron Throne. IMO, Varys has been working so hard for the ultimate advent of fAegon because he's probably Ilyrio's brother in law. Viserys and Dany were only ever meant by him to be disposable placeholders and distractors to keep Robert occupied while Varys arranged chaos and war to eventually break out and cause hell till the country was weak enough to hail the advent of "Rhaegar's son" without examining his pedigree too closely.

But the showrunners cut fAegon from the script, which does make Varys' acts look pretty senseless without that justification.

12 minutes ago, that one guy said:

Her goal is to unite the 7 kingdoms. The North and the Vale are two of those kingdoms and currently call Jon their king. If she can bring them into the fold through marriage, she doesn't have to invade.

Just a detail...as far as I can tell, Jon has no authority to pledge the Vale's fealty for them to Dany. Sweetrobin agreed to help his cousin, not pledge allegiance to the King in the North, who has no actual jurisdication over the Vale

[Raachel2008]

14 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

don't think she's going to be anyone's subject, and if anyone puts demands on her she'll oppose it.

Her choice will be her free will or best of maybe not so great choices, but still hers.

just my opinon.

I don't think you are understading what I'm saying. Sansa is Jon's subject now, since he is KITN and the ruler of the Stark House. If he wanted to marry her into another House, say with the Manderly or Glover's heir, he 'could'. If, say, Dany gets the IT and ends ruling the North too, she could decide who Sansa marries and it wouldn't make a difference if she opposes it. Sansa doesn't have all the free will you think she does in some matters, just like Dany didn't, or Cersei when she married Robert or even Sansa himself when she wanted to marry Joffrey.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Raachel2008

[Blonde Gator]

15 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Of course. None of us are sheep ;)

We should meet back here in 20 years when Winds finally comes out. 

You're on.  We can make a date for 20 years hence, and every 5 years after that.  Truly, I don't think GRRM is capable of finishing this tale, which is why he's twiddling about with anything else (fillers) he can think of so he doesn't have to sit down and actually write the bloody tale.

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

You're on.  We can make a date for 20 years hence, and every 5 years after that.  Truly, I don't think GRRM is capable of finishing this tale, which is why he's twiddling about with anything else (fillers) he can think of so he doesn't have to sit down and actually write the bloody tale.

Exactly, he's told the showrunners the basic ending, so he's letting them fill in the details.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Raachel2008 said:

I don't think you are understading what I'm saying. Sansa is Jon's subject now, since he is KITN and the ruler of the Stark House. If he wanted to marry her into another House, say with the Manderly or Glover's heir, he could. If, say, Dany gets the IT and ends ruling the North too, she could decide who Sansa marries and it wouldn't make a difference if she opposes it. Sansa doesn't have all the free will you think she does in some matters.

I get what your saying, I don't think it's going to happen and as far as Jon,he's not forcing anything on Sansa, she will have to be okay with it.

Sansa could walk away and say fuck this shit and leave the nobility behind.

Only way I see her doing it is to save her house, or the North and it won't be a Northern house most likely a Southern one.

Only House I support for her is House Dayne, wish they were more prominent in the show.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Burning the Red Keep is a plan with a lot of faults.

Cersei knows that Dany is on Dragonstone, she knows Dany has dragons. She is no doubt aware of the possibility of a dragon assault. Even if Dany doesn't think Cersei can do anything to hurt her dragons, it doesn't rule out the possibility of escape. The Red Keep is not Harrenhal, which is a castle in the middle of nowhere, it is a castle in the middle of a city, a city with thousands of places to hide. Not to mention the fact that the Red Keep has a myriad of hidden passageways into and out of the castle, a fact which both Tyrion and Varys know. They also both know that Jaime knows, and thusly can probably assume that Cersei knows.

The only way to be sure Cersei dies is to torch the whole city.

If Dany torches the Red Keep and Cersei lives all Dany gets is a reputation as a psychopath that is trying to burn the city down. Does that sound like any past King we know? Don't you think Dany would like to avoid that comparison?

No plan is going to lack faults. Storming the city quickly, or besieging it slowly, a lot of people are going to die regardless. IMO, keeping the attack confined to the Red Keep itself  (as only an aerial attack can do)  instead of either starving the whole city into submission or having your army fight your way through the whole city to take down the keep is the best way to limit your attack to the people you're actually hostile toward - Cersei and her defenders, thus reducing collateral damage to innocent bystanders. If protecting her people IS what she wants above all, I think that's her best bet.

Yes, Cersei could escape. But that possibility exists regardless how you choose to attack the city. And driving Cersei from the Red Keep means you drive her out of the most defensible strong point of the city. If you drive her into hiding in the city, she'll be among a population who loathes her and won't hide her for long. If you drive her out of the city entirely, you drive her into a country where she has no friends and not even her Iron Throne to justify fealty toward her.

IMO, the only reasonable objections to NOT attacking the Red Keep with dragons would be either that Dany doesn't have good enough control over the dragons to keep them  from running amuck in the city instead  of concentrating  their attack on the Red Keep, or that Tyrion might remember that Cersei has control of the alchemists' guild and may be stockpiling wildfire. I'd accept either explanation for why such an attack isn't feasible, but it would be nice if they OFFERED one. I can't be the only person wondering why she isn't using three flying dragons in her battle plans.

[TarotQueen]

38 minutes ago, screamin said:

Just a detail...as far as I can tell, Jon has no authority to pledge the Vale's fealty for them to Dany. Sweetrobin agreed to help his cousin, not pledge allegiance to the King in the North, who has no actual jurisdication over the Vale

The Vale lords are the ones who pledged their fealty to him in the KITN scene.  They might not have had the "right" to do so, in as far as rights exist in this world, but they have their own men with them and they did choose Jon, so it doesn't seem like it matters all that much how sweetrobin feels about it anymore.

[kieyra]

I have a theory that the show-runners are using the "gross-out" scenes this season in place of the overused rape & torture scenes.

 

...oh, who am I kidding, I'm sure there's more rape in store. 

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

I don't think you are understading what I'm saying. Sansa is Jon's subject now, since he is KITN and the ruler of the Stark House. If he wanted to marry her into another House, say with the Manderly or Glover's heir, he 'could'. If, say, Dany gets the IT and ends ruling the North too, she could decide who Sansa marries and it wouldn't make a difference if she opposes it. Sansa doesn't have all the free will you think she does in some matters, just like Dany didn't, or Cersei when she married Robert or even Sansa himself when she wanted to marry Joffrey.

The one thing that Sansa can have some confidence in is that Jon will never force her to marry against her will. Not after what she's been through. He's promised to protect her and he's already shown that he won't stand for LittleDick putting the moves on her. And as king as her oldest living male relative, he's got the right to refuse any proposals for her. She can't marry without his say so.

One thing that's been irking me is so many people calling Sansa the QITN. Jon is still very much king. He doesn't lose his title just because he's away for a few weeks on a business trip. She's his appointed regent right now, ruling in his stead until he gets back. But she's not Queen. Not yet, at least.

[Advance35]

Quote

Just a detail...as far as I can tell, Jon has no authority to pledge the Vale's fealty for them to Dany. Sweetrobin agreed to help his cousin, not pledge allegiance to the King in the North, who has no actual jurisdication over the Vale

This is the impression I was under.  The Vale is interested in the sense that Their Lord's cousin is involved.  Jon doesn't matter, hence why Lord Royce wasn't interested in getting involved in the reclamation of Winterfell, until LF convinced Robin to help his cousin.  The Vale is a VALUABLE (hence why they are always allowed to attend meetings in Winterfell's Great Hall) Northern Ally for the moment but if they felt it was in their interest to sever ties, I don't doubt for a moment they would.

Neither the Vale nor the North are fond of Targaryens, if Jon surrendere the North to Dany and then it comes out that he is in fact a Targaryen himself, one could imagine the North and The Vale feeling like they had been hoodwinked.  Depending who's left standing when all this is over, Dany better pray she still has dragons at the end of all this.  Olenna was telling the truth when she said "Peace never last."

And Dany is NO Margaery, she doesn't have the guile, intellect or creativity to hold the Throne without her dragons.
 

Quote

I don't think you are understading what I'm saying. Sansa is Jon's subject now, since he is KITN and the ruler of the Stark House. If he wanted to marry her into another House, say with the Manderly or Glover's heir, he 'could'. If, say, Dany gets the IT and ends ruling the North too, she could decide who Sansa marries and it wouldn't make a difference if she opposes it. Sansa doesn't have all the free will you think she does in some matters, just like Dany didn't, or Cersei when she married Robert or even Sansa himself when she wanted to marry Joffrey.

Yeppers. If Jon surrenders to Dany and it's in Dany's political interest to marry a daughter of the North to another high ranking Noble in a different kingdom, Sansa would have to pack her bags.  It would not be up to Jon.   And based on personalities,  I do think Dany will have the upper hand in her relationship with Jon so I don't think he would stand in the way if she told him how it was going to be.

One of the reasons Sansa, I would expect her to be very Anti-swearing allegiance to the Throne.  She's been in that position before.  I think Sansa's developed a notable resentment for people she feels control her or are trying too.  The writers are fast tracking some things and I am under the impression that Dany and Jon's stories are the only ones that REALLY matter to them BUT true to the character as designed, Sansa would never be Pro-Surrendering the Norths independence.

OT kind of, but when we saw the new Dickon Tarly, I thought, if only he and Sansa could meet.  Assuming House Tarly somehow ends up as Wardens of The Reach, I could actually get my own personal HEA of Sansa as Lady of Highgarden. (Sad Face).  And he's tall.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Advance35

[WatchrTina]

8 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Since all of the many Tyrell cousins and siblings seem to have vanished from the show, I would imagine some of the Tyrell bannermen are looking at a great house that consists of one old woman with no heirs and seeing an opportunity to replace it if they side correctly in the coming fight.  At least that was the read I got on Randall Tarly.  There's the honor and obligations he was talking about and then there's the possibility of becoming THE lords of the Reach.

While I was waiting for this season to start I spent some time at the YouTube channel Alt-Shift-X which has a lot of crazy-good analysis of the books and the show.  One of the things I learned was that when Aegon the Conquerer took the Seven Kingdoms, the Reach was ruled by another family (possibly named Gardener but don't quote me on that.)  Their stewards were the Tyrells.  The Tyrells encouraged them to form an alliance with the neighboring kingdom ruled by the Lannisters and to go fight Aegon.  They lost badly and House Gardener (?) was wiped out.  House Lannister bent the knee on the battlefield and shortly thereafter so did the Tyrells, who were given the Reach to rule as a reward for their pledging fealty -- thereby replacing the now-extinct noble family that had previously ruled it.  Some suspect that the Tyrells encouraged the fight in the hopes of just such an outcome.  (BTW, the then-ruling Stark of Winterfell arrived with his army shortly thereafter, saw the carnage, bent the knee, and got a mocking nickname  -- Ned the kneeler or something like that -- as a result.)

I share this history lesson only to make the point that ambitious and self-serving banner-men aspiring to rise above the house to which they have sworn fealty is kind of a thing in the Reach.  Randall Tarly may know that and be subtly influenced by the history of his region.

Edited July 25, 2017 by WatchrTina

[nodorothyparker]

3 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I share this history lesson only to make the point that ambitious and self-serving banner-men aspiring to rise above the house to which they have sworn fealty is kind of a thing in the Reach.  Randall Tarly may know that and be subtly influenced by the history of his region.

I'm blanking on specifics from the books, but I know this is at least implied as kind of a known thing, that there are members of the other great houses who consider the Tyrells upjumped stewards because their families don't go back thousands of years as many of the others do.  So you're probably right that it's at least in the back of Tarly's mind as he's weighing his options.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, kieyra said:

I have a theory that the show-runners are using the "gross-out" scenes this season in place of the overused rape & torture scenes.

 

...oh, who am I kidding, I'm sure there's more rape in store. 

I  actually emailed the sentiment that was exactly like the first part of your sentence to a friend of mine.  It went:

 

"I don’t know why the show runners insist on all the puss and crap with Sam.  Other than they are 14-year-old boys at heart and someone took away their prostitutes moaning in the background shtick.  I wanted to like the Sam’s parts, but it’s all just FF material for me."

 

 But, yes, of course, there will be more rape. 

52 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'm blanking on specifics from the books, but I know this is at least implied as kind of a known thing, that there are members of the other great houses who consider the Tyrells upjumped stewards because their families don't go back thousands of years as many of the others do.  So you're probably right that it's at least in the back of Tarly's mind as he's weighing his options.

The Gardeners were the former liege lords of the Reach.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Francie

[Francie]

1 hour ago, TarotQueen said:

The Vale lords are the ones who pledged their fealty to him in the KITN scene.  They might not have had the "right" to do so, in as far as rights exist in this world, but they have their own men with them and they did choose Jon, so it doesn't seem like it matters all that much how sweetrobin feels about it anymore.

 And, of course, Littlefinger has never gone back on a deal.

More importantly, I didn't take Littlefinger's declaration for the north to be swearing fealty to Jon. The Vale simply recognized that Jon is the king of the north. Littlefinger is not subverting himself to Jon's will. He's agreed to cooperate with him.

The Vale is a separate kingdoms within the realm, after all. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Francie
Siri sucks

[anamika]

Did anyone think that the reaction of the North hearing about Dragons was rather underwhelming? These magical creatures that have not been around for hundreds of years.

They should have been like:

6 minutes ago, Francie said:

 And, of course, Littlefinger has never gone back on a deal.

More importantly, I didn't take Littlefinger's declaration for the north to be swearing fealty to Jon. The Vale simply recognized that he Jon is the king of the north. Littlefinger is not subverting himself to Jon's will. He's agreed to cooperate with him.

The Vale is a separate kingdoms within the realm, after all. 

Then master player and no.1 political expert Sansa should get rid of LF by arranging an accident for him and let SweetRobin know that they can now be allies. She would have Royce's support (He hates LF).

Edited July 25, 2017 by anamika

[Blonde Gator]

I wish Jon had taken Brienne aside, before heading to White Harbor to catch his boat, and told her "if Littlefinger even steps one fraction of a millimeter out of line with Sansa, I would appreciate it if you would choke the life out of him."    I want to see some Brienne intimidation and to see Littlefinger wet his pants.  In public.  Then, Arya shows up, and scares him to the point his hair turns white, all at once, before Sansa delivers the coup de grace.

[YaddaYadda]

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

Did anyone think that the reaction of the North hearing about Dragons was rather underwhelming? These magical creatures that have not been around for hundreds of years.

They should have been like:

They have an army of the dead marching on them, they're probably going dragons *shrug*. Their reaction to the White Walkers wasn't what I was expecting. I was expecting some protests and they just seem to be very accepting that this is a thing and that it will eventually happen. I guess it might go back to what Jon said about none of them having seen the NK or his army. Maybe the reactions will be different when they see the dragons flying overhead and the NK raising the dead.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

And Dany is NO Margaery, she doesn't have the guile, intellect or creativity to hold the Throne without her dragons.

Any comparison of Daenerys and Margaery falls flat because Margaery is dead. Her guile, intellect, and creativity (which I think you are overstating) didn't help her hold on to her throne and certainly didn't save her from Cersei's machinations or the High Sparrow's bigotry and hubris.

Daenerys has held onto her throne in part because she is a good ruler. Good rulers have good judgement in choosing the people who advise them. The people who serve and are loyalty to Daenerys have served her well, despite the occasional mistakes; Missandei, Grey Worm, Bannistan, Jorah, Daario, now Tryion and Varys.

Daenerys has also held to her throne because she IS a dragon, not because she has dragons. Her power, her immunity to and control of fire and ability to tap into some form of magic, allowed her to hatch the dragon eggs. Her power allowed her summon or subconsciously contact Drogon when she was about to be killed in the fight pit. She also used her power to kill the Khals and gain control of the khalasar. 

I think that Daenerys' demand for fairness and justice for the people she rules, her good judgement in her advisors, and her power make her the best potential ruler that Westeros has ever had and will give "the people" the best chance at having prosperous lives in the long run.

1 hour ago, TarotQueen said:

The Vale lords are the ones who pledged their fealty to him in the KITN scene.  They might not have had the "right" to do so, in as far as rights exist in this world, but they have their own men with them and they did choose Jon, so it doesn't seem like it matters all that much how sweetrobin feels about it anymore.

So I did see them giving Jon their oaths in the great hall. I thought so.

Edited July 25, 2017 by SimoneS

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Any comparison of Daenerys and Margaery falls flat because Margaery is dead. Her guile, intellect, and creativity (which I think you are overstating) didn't help her hold on to her throne and certainly didn't save her from Cersei's machinations or the High Sparrow's bigotry and hubris.

Exactly and her dear grandmother Olena said as much when she was trying to advise Danny. I believe in so many words that she said her granddaughter had the love of the people and that still didn't save her. Cut short, Danny act like the Dragon you are please. 

[anamika]

10 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

They have an army of the dead marching on them, they're probably going dragons *shrug*. Their reaction to the White Walkers wasn't what I was expecting. I was expecting some protests and they just seem to be very accepting that this is a thing and that it will eventually happen. I guess it might go back to what Jon said about none of them having seen the NK or his army. Maybe the reactions will be different when they see the dragons flying overhead and the NK raising the dead.

But that's the thing. They don't seem to be understanding the WW marching on them either.  Jon has to spend 5 minutes each episode explaining to them why an army of the dead is the more pressing threat. It's become tiring and Jon himself looked tired for having to do it once again. I don't know why Jon thinks the Southerners would believe him considering the Northerners themselves , including his dumb sister, don't seem to be understanding the gravity of the situation.

Edited July 25, 2017 by anamika

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

No plan is going to lack faults. Storming the city quickly, or besieging it slowly, a lot of people are going to die regardless. IMO, keeping the attack confined to the Red Keep itself  (as only an aerial attack can do)  instead of either starving the whole city into submission or having your army fight your way through the whole city to take down the keep is the best way to limit your attack to the people you're actually hostile toward - Cersei and her defenders, thus reducing collateral damage to innocent bystanders. If protecting her people IS what she wants above all, I think that's her best bet.

Yes, Cersei could escape. But that possibility exists regardless how you choose to attack the city. And driving Cersei from the Red Keep means you drive her out of the most defensible strong point of the city. If you drive her into hiding in the city, she'll be among a population who loathes her and won't hide her for long. If you drive her out of the city entirely, you drive her into a country where she has no friends and not even her Iron Throne to justify fealty toward her.

The showrunners could steal the plot from that novella about the Dance of the Dragons, The Princess and the Queen.  Prince Aemon had taken most of Aegon II's troops from Kings Landing to retake Harrenhal from Rhanerya's forces.  Meanwhile, her army had abandoned Harrenhal and moved towards Kings Landing.  She and her husband (and a couple of others) flew their dragons over the city and basically scared the shit out of the inhabitants.  Some of the citizens and some of the Gold Cloaks said "fuck this" and opened the gates, letting her forces in.  Aegon II (who was in the Red Keep recovering from his serious wounds) was smuggled to safety.

 

Use Word's "Find / Replace" and substitute Dany for Rhaenyra and Cercei for Aegon II, and they've got a script!

[Keepitmoving]

7 minutes ago, anamika said:

But that's the thing. They don't seem to be understanding the WW marching on them either.  Jon has to spend 5 minutes each episode explaining to them why an army of the dead is the more pressing threat. It's become tiring and Jon himself looked tired for having to do it once again. I don't know why Jon thinks the Southerners would believe him considering the Northerners themselves , including his dumb sister, don't seem to be understanding the gravity of the situation.

I mean, do they get the imagery of men/women/children dying on the battle field only to rise again as White Walkers?  Because Jon, some of the guys at the Wall and his Wildling buddies know what that looks like. Have they actually described that to these folks in detail? Have they described in detail how they went to save some folks and the White Walkers showed up, killed many of them, then they saw those same dead folks rise again as WW's? Maybe they do and figure, oh well, if they get us we'll rise again and still be able to walk around, LOL. I don't know, I'm reaching here, but I'm with anyone who's getting tired of seeing Jon have to explain that they are doomed by these WW if they don't take this shit as priority number one. Which means even turning to the mother of dragons for help.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Advance35]

Quote

Daenerys has also held to her throne because she IS a dragon, not because she has dragons. Her power, her immunity to and control of fire and ability to tap into some form of magic, allowed her to hatch the dragon eggs. Her power allowed her summon or subconsciously contact Drogon when she was about to be killed in the fight pit. She also used her power to kill the Khals and gain control of the khalasar. 

The quoted I agree with. Dragons and Her Magical Menagerie of Special Powers are the reason for Dany's advantageous fall upward.  Those things are her ace, I don't think she would amount to much without them but I can acknowledge that the outlook is subjective.

[SoWindsor]

10 hours ago, Francie said:

Then what's your answer to the question: Who is Tommen's heir? 

His Baratheon uncles are dead. His Baratheon cousins are dead. Who do you claim is the next in line, should the lords want to follow Tommen's heir?

Gendry

[YaddaYadda]

20 minutes ago, anamika said:

But that's the thing. They don't seem to be understanding the WW marching on them either.  Jon has to spend 5 minutes each episode explaining to them why an army of the dead is the more pressing threat. It's become tiring and Jon himself looked tired for having to do it once again. I don't know why Jon thinks the Southerners would believe him considering the Northerners themselves , including his dumb sister, don't seem to be understanding the gravity of the situation.

I agree. I'm underwhelmed by their reaction. They seem to believe to a certain extent, I guess. The thing that bugs with this is that the people who don't feel any sense of urgency will not pay the price on their own. They die, they are reanimated, they take people down with them. I don't think they'll get the true gravity of the situation until the Wall comes crumbling down. I can't wait to see that thing down just for to see the reactions of everyone. 

I think Bran coming home will be a turning point for Sansa specifically, especially since she's been left in charge of the north. Although judging by some of the spoilers...

Edited July 25, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[SimoneS]

13 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

The quoted I agree with. Dragons and Her Magical Menagerie of Special Powers are the reason for Dany's advantageous fall upward.  Those things are her ace, I don't think she would amount to much without them but I can acknowledge that the outlook is subjective.

You were comparing Daenerys to Margaery. Margaery wouldn't have amounted to much without the luck of being born into a wealthy family whose goal was for her to have a powerful advantageous marriage. If Olenna believed that Margery's "guile, intellect or creativity" was as powerful you do, she wouldn't have murdered Joffrey to protect her. Despite having this "ace" and being loved by so many people, Margaery is dead.

20 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I mean, do they get the imagery of men/women/children dying on the battle field only to rise again as White Walkers?  Because Jon, some of the guys at the Wall and his Wildling buddies know what that looks like. Have they actually described that to these folks in detail? Have they described in detail how they went to save some folks and the White Walkers showed up, killed many of them, then they saw those same dead folks rise again as WW's? Maybe they do and figure, oh well, if they get us we'll rise again and still be able to walk around, LOL. I don't know, I'm reaching here, but I'm with anyone who's getting tired of seeing Jon have to explain that they are doomed by these WW if they don't take this shit as priority number one. Which means even turning to the mother of dragons for help.

I think that the horror of the Night King's army is something that people have to see for themselves to believe. It is like someone telling you something is bad, and yes, you believe them, but how bad and terrifying is hard to comprehend until you experience it yourself. I said before the lords are going to piss themselves when they do finally lay eyes on the Night King and his army.

Edited July 25, 2017 by SimoneS

[anamika]

15 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I mean, do they get the imagery of men/women/children dying on the battle field only to rise again as White Walkers?  Because Jon, some of the guys at the Wall and his Wildling buddies know what that looks like. Have they actually described that to these folks in detail? Have they described in detail how they went to save some folks and the White Walkers showed up, killed many of them, then they saw those same dead folks rise again as WW's?

I am sure he has described what happened to them and particulars about the WW etc.... I mean why wouldn't he? He asking them to mine for dragon glass etc. This idea that Jon is keeping all this information to himself...like why? 

[FnkyChkn34]

50 minutes ago, anamika said:

Did anyone think that the reaction of the North hearing about Dragons was rather underwhelming? These magical creatures that have not been around for hundreds of years.

They should have been like:

Then master player and no.1 political expert Sansa should get rid of LF by arranging an accident for him and let SweetRobin know that they can now be allies. She would have Royce's support (He hates LF).

Haven't there been rumors for many seasons that Dany has dragons?  So this isn't really news to anyone, it's just confirming what they already suspected.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

The quoted I agree with. Dragons and Her Magical Menagerie of Special Powers are the reason for Dany's advantageous fall upward.  Those things are her ace, I don't think she would amount to much without them but I can acknowledge that the outlook is subjective.

Dany managed to survive the Dothraki, stop the rape of slaves and convinced Khal Drogo to invade Westeros for her. Without her dragons or magic. She did this after getting sold to the Dothraki like chattel and being forcefully married off. She was not married to someone like Tyrion who did not rape his bride. She did not have someone like the Hound to protect her or LF to get her away from danger or a Stark name to keep her alive. Rather, people were trying to kill her because of her name. Despite all that, instead of whining about how much her life sucked and expecting other people to help her, she took the initiative to improve her own life. She hatched those eggs. She made the decisions on her advisers. She provided the tactical strategy to take Astapor and Yunkai. There was nothing magical about all that.

She's managed to get more done than most characters in the series. But yes, let's discount all that because magic.

45 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Haven't there been rumors for many seasons that Dany has dragons?  So this isn't really news to anyone, it's just confirming what they already suspected.

Yeah, but do they really believe it? Like they knew about the WW, but did not seem to believe it was all real until Jon tells them. I doubt they think it's real even now considering their rather lackluster reaction to the threat. 

As mentioned above, everyone's reaction to all the magical stuff on the show seems very underwhelming. Considering the whole point is that the politics and treachery has been important because no one believes in the magic, but now that the magic is really here, we should be seeing shock and disbelief - but everyone is like oh...okay.

Edited July 25, 2017 by anamika

[Kathemy]

3 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Just as an aside:  In our real world history, that's happened kind of a lot where it's been a good thing.  It's just usually referred to as liberating, vs. invading but the occupying force being driven out by an opposing army has been viewed positively on more than one occasion.  For instance, in World War II the Germans/Third Reich/Nazis occupied a lot of places for years and then they were liberated by allied forces.    

I should've added the term "sovereign" to cut out any attempts at those technicalities...

But I'll give you a better one if we're to play the game. Hitler's invasion of Austria. Tho, if we're to be technical, we might call that an "annexation." I'm pretty sure that came with a lot less suffering for the local population than the allied liberation of France.

[ParadoxLost]

12 minutes ago, anamika said:

I am sure he has described what happened to them and particulars about the WW etc.... I mean why wouldn't he? He asking them to mine for dragon glass etc. This idea that Jon is keeping all this information to himself...like why? 

Maybe they are relying too heavily on the "North Remembers" to convey the true horror of what is coming.

I think its more likely that its just impossible to conceive of that the Night King and White Walkers are until you fight them.  I imagine that the Lords think that the Night King is scarier version of Bolton.  At least they seem to not see the WWs as a greater threat than the South.  I imagine that Jon has fought the WWs multiple times and survived is helping reinforce that delusion.

 

7 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Haven't there been rumors for many seasons that Dany has dragons?  So this isn't really news to anyone, it's just confirming what they already suspected.

I think that the reaction to dragons is because they are more recent history than WWs.  People had relatives killed by them.  Robert had their skeletons in the Castle.  But hadn't they basically become smaller until they became extinct?  

So they don't necessary know that they are bigger than they were in the last years they existed.  Also they seem to be treated like its the person who commands them to attack that is the concern rather than the dragon itself.

[TaurusRose]

6 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Who is the she you're referring to here?

Sansa.

[TarotQueen]

Ugh I always get all compulsed about reading the whole thread through and then wanting to respond to individual posts before I post my own general thoughts on the episode ...

Varys was gansta af!  Especially for a man with no balls.  Like, I hate to bruise your ego Dany, but I ain't scared of dying.  Do agree with someone else here who mentioned this is not consistent with his book portrayal, and yeah, I've never forgotten that there he sabotaged Rhaegar either, because despite being pretty irresponsible in love, Rhaegar would still have been a better king than Aerys OR Robert.  But whatevs, Varys is a man of the ppl on the show.  I'm okay with it.

Grey Worm and Missandei, what a pair of incredibly beautiful bodies!  Man both of them are just made for fantasy.  But they also both acted very well, especially Jacob Anderson and those soulful dark eyes.  He was fantastic.  The scene itself was of dubious value, but again, I'll take it.  The B and C characters have to have their moments after all.

I love that Jon is having Sansa put her money where her mouth is by making her regent.  She's good at saying what has to happen ... let's see how she does with getting stuff accomplished.  And I don't dislike Sansa, but I do think that even now, she has that highborn sense of just being the person who tells other people what to get done, which doesn't always work in positions of real leadership ... sure you delegate, but  you also have to always be following up and stuff. 

Maisie was fantastic with Hot Pie, her eyes when he told her about Jon, but I freaking lost it like a little bitch over her and Nymeria.  It was so touching to me. 

Cersei ... just get this thirsty bitch off my screen please.  Dany and Jon meeting build up ... okay, let's get to it please.  Sea Battle ... very exciting, made Euron kind of interesting for the first time.  Sand snakes, blah blah, who cares?  I do get Theon didn't have a lot of options, but I think Yara's cultural preference would have been the sort of quick death that him fighting back would have provided, and I felt like her face represented regret for him and betrayal too.  Alfie Allen is the best actor on this whole show, seriously, he'll surpass even Dinklage one day imo. 

I do find LF repugnant, but it's irritating to see him just be a placeholder for a villain these past two episodes so far.  As Jimmy Macram opined though, LF is always just one step away from putting himself back into the game, so with Jon leaving we'll see what he comes up with.  Loved Jon choking his ass though. 

[Maximum Taco]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Yeah, but do they really believe it? Like they knew about the WW, but did not seem to believe it was all real until Jon tells them. I doubt they think it's real even now considering their rather lackluster reaction to the threat. 

As mentioned above, everyone's reaction to all the magical stuff on the show seems very underwhelming. Considering the whole point is that the politics and treachery has been important because no one believes in the magic, but now that the magic is really here, we should be seeing shock and disbelief - but everyone is like oh...okay.

 

I don't think dragons are as unbelievable as WW or other things.

WW haven't been seen since the Long Night, that was 8000 years ago.

Dragons on the other hand have only been extinct for about 150 years.

Using a real world example, if someone told me they had discovered an island where a flock of dodo birds lived, I might say that's hard to believe without a picture or other kind of proof. But I wouldn't call immediate bullshit on them either. It's believable enough that somewhere in the world there might be a living dodo. Now if someone told me they had discovered an ambush of Saber Toothed Tigers, I would call immediate bullshit on them. (Side note: How cool is it that a group of tigers is called an 'ambush'?)

This is the same thing, it's believable enough that there might be a dragon or 3 out there.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Maximum Taco