S07.E01: Dragonstone

[Constantinople]

58 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Sansa makes a good point about Jon totally ignoring the south and possibly being a bit naive but like it or not he's the King in the North.  Publicly opposing him is idiotic - it pisses him off and those northern lords who respect him will turn on her.  The North has already had its civil war and lost a big chunk of its army.  They can't afford to split up again.

If Jon is holding some kind of rap session where everyone in the North is allowed to speak their piece, except for Sansa, then Jon's the idiot for not setting clear expectations with Sansa before the meeting and not asking her opinion beforehand.

[Constantinople]

6 hours ago, Gwen-Stacys said:

But Jon's decision in this episode was the exact opposite of what Robb did when he chose to execute Lord Karstark, thereby losing the support of the Karstark army. Robb's decision was way more inline with Sansa's  suggestion than Jon's actual decision. Like a previous poster pointed out, Jon pulled a Tywin (strike down your enemies when they come against you, but help them back up when they choose to bend the knee). That's where my problem with that particular though process (that Jon is following in the footsteps of Robb and Ned) comes from. It's not true in the slightest.  

Sansa's decision was about securing loyalty, so I doubt she would have gone along with Robb's decision at the time.

And Jon was in no way pulling a Tywin, unless there's some Little Lord Timmy Reyne of Castamere we have yet to hear about.

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

If Jon is holding some kind of rap session where everyone in the North is allowed to speak their piece, except for Sansa, then Jon's the idiot for not setting clear expectations with Sansa before the meeting and not asking her opinion beforehand.

Jon will never be mistaken for a genius but Sansa's supposed to be cleverer than this.   She's not just another lord, she's his sister and Lady of Winterfell.  The way to disagree with your ruling sibling is the way Jaime did it. 

[Haleth]

10 hours ago, mac123x said:

Nice surprise to recognize Jorah's voice coming from the cell in Oldtown.

Oh!  It never occurred to me that that is who that was!

I have no problem with Sansa voicing her opinion.  She did back down pretty quickly but she should have made her support of Jon known to the assembly rather than sitting there pouting while Jon spoke to the Umbers and Karstarks.  Their private conversation showed a mutual respect and willingness to hear out the other.  People have to know the siblings are united.

Little Lady Lyanna Mormont?  You go, girl.  Between her and Arya (and hopefully Alys Karstark), those northern girls have some spunk.  The Sand Snakes should take note on what a real badass can do, without sexual innuendo.

As someone who often gripes about the changes from the book, I have to say one thing I adore is that Berric Dondarrion is still alive here.  I wouldn't mind more time spent on the adventures of the Brotherhood + Hound.  And it was wonderful to see Dolorous Edd again.

The final scene was filmed beautifully.  Shall we begin?

[stagmania]

10 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Oh boy, I see this thread has already turned into the same Sansa vs. Jon back and forth that took over the season 7 spoilers thread for the better part of the last year. Sigh.

Yes, it's incredibly tiresome, especially when the show seemed to be making the point that they were both somewhat right and both somewhat wrong. I believe the idea is that they need to learn to trust each other and combine the wisdom of their very different experiences to handle their various enemies.

Spoiler

I'm looking forward to Jon heading for Dragonstone so we can stop going round and round in circles about every Jon/Sansa scene.

9 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

Not only that, but I don't even know what she wants anymore. She started out wanting the life of a fairytale princess/queen, then she wanted to escape and find her family, then she wanted to reclaim her home, but now what? Most of the other main characters are focused on consolidating their rule, seeking revenge, or preparing for a looming battle, but what is driving Sansa? What are her actual goals and desires at this point? It's all very muddled for me, which makes it difficult for me to root for her when she's being whiny and evasive.

I think this is a big source of the inconsistent writing for Sansa; they haven't figured out what motivates her now. She has everything she previously wanted-to be home, to be safe, to get revenge on Ramsey-and yet she is dissatisfied and craving something else. Is it just power? Respect? Fealty? One would think that being Lady of Winterfell and having a seat at the King in the North's right hand would be enough to satisfy that. But they want to create some tension, I guess. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by SilverStormm
Spoiler tag added.

[Scarlett45]

7 hours ago, MadMouse said:

If Sansa really wanted to give Jon good advice, she would have proposed a double betrothal. From their POV they're the last two Starks around and she should be smart enough to realize that her family has tendency to die off in rapid succession. Plus a marriage alliance would cement the loyalty of those two houses.  Jon is easy on eyes and a genuinely good person so for Alys it would be a win. And for the Umber kid, in six or seven years he'd be married to a twenty something Sansa who would wrap him around her finger.

That was along the lines of what I suggested. Or bethrothe Lady Mormont to Young Karstark (marriage in a few years). 

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

Some good decisions from Jon.  Sansa was not nearly as annoying as I expected her to be. But her passive-aggressive undermining of Jon continues to be irritating. Sansa, you are not as super smart as you pretend to be. Shut up.

 

No, she shouldn't "Shut Up" While Jon is more experienced, he is still making mistakes in not giving his small council insight on what he is thinking of doing; that got him stabbed once to death.

Sansa for her part is still learning and maybe regretting not telling Jon about the Vale previously, it was Lord Royce who first spoke of tearing down the two castles Sansa just pushed reward the people who supported you, in this case she had the right of it but she used wrong timing.

All said and done, they both were correct and both have timing issues and issues of experience.

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

What's the Winterfell sigil now?

 

did anyone else think a smart thing for Jon to do would've been to bethrothe eligiable heirs from the loyal houses to Karstark and Umber? That way the family keeps ancestral seats but loyal bannermen are rewarded. 

Could have placed someone in charge of those castles and he could have kept the children as wards until they come of age.

[Constantinople]

One problem with Arya taking out Walder Frey at the end of last season and all of the male Freys in this episode is that it will become more and more difficult to suspend disbelief in Cersei's continued existence.  Unless something  happens to turn Arya away from King's Landing.

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, snowblossom2 said:

Loved everything except the Ed Sheeran cameo

That didn't bother me at all, but I can't get into Euron or the actor playing him, one of the few times I wished they used the book version of a character.

[benteen]

Killing Lord Karstark was the morally right thing to do (and Robb made some good points about potential insubordination if he let him live) but tactically it was a complete disaster for Robb.  Holding Karstark hostage to continue to garner support from his men and then send him to the Wall afterwards would have been the correct play for keeping his army together.

[Growsonwalls]

I think people are being a little hard on Sansa. In the following scene with Jon she was completely respectful of him and the two of them had a real dialogue about how to rule. And she completely blew off Littlefinger. Cersei never would have had that conversation with Jon (or anyone else). 

I think if any Stark is like Cersei, it's Arya. Shoot (or poison) first, and don't even ask questions. I think many viewers remember the scrappy Arya from the first few seasons and love her fighting spirit. I do too. But the Arya of S7 is a cold-blooded mass murderer.

Speaking of Cersei my favortie moment from her was when she again harangued Jamie for letting Tyrion escape. Cersei never forgets!

[Francie]

On a gloss through kind of watch, the opening scene is highly entertaining, but a bit troubling. So a 20-year-old girl can imitate a 90-year-old man for more than two minutes? On re-watch, the whole thing falls apart. Did she bring the poison with her from Bravos? Did she concoct it the Frey kitchen? Did the cooks wonder who this girl was cooking in the kitchen? Did she have serving people fill the poison into the goblets? Did she do it herself? Did she do it wearing Wakder Fred's coat, which would've been scraping the ground?  Did she do it as the serving girl who apparently had just dragged Walder Frey's body out back?  

The whole thing about the multiple faces, was that you could change your appearance a bit. But it didn't change your height, or your hands, or your weight.  The faces aren't infused with magic. And even if they were, did Arya bring this magic with her from Bravos? From the get-go, that took me out of the show.  It's sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.

Yes, let's spend valuable real estate on the adventures of Sam with poop. 

I'm over Lyanna Mormont.  

There was too much missing from the Cersei/Jaime interaction. Way too much handwaving with him just being quiet the last few days. Everything that needed to have been addressed was skipped right over, for plot convenience. And gods forbid we cull any of the wet poop scene to address the hard issues that needed to have been addressed.

And thanks for robbing me of the moment that Jaime finds out that his last child is dead, and letting that moment be replaced by a montage of poop.

There was such an odd tonal change in the scene with Arya and the Lannister soldiers from scenes from seasons past.  They expressed no concern that she was a young woman traveling alone.  It was just odd how casual they all were. I don't mean to challenge that they were welcoming and kind.  I  wasn't surprised by that (although Arya was). I mean it was too much like a group hanging out camping, as opposed to soldiers protecting a war torn land. 

Sansa had the best line of the show, telling Baelish he didn't need the last word and she was sure it was going to be something clever. Very Lady Olenna of her.

I still give zero fucks about Dany, other then she's bringing weapons of mass destruction to Westeros.

I think the writers are a little lost without George's manuscript to guide them. This show had a very uneven and unpolished script. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Francie

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, stagmania said:

Sansa has clearly learned some of the wrong lessons from Cersei.

Actually she learned correctly, how to apply those lessons differently  though her timing is off. Jon is still off on his lessons, his decisions may be final, but they can't be done in a vacuum  of 1.

[anamika]

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

No, she shouldn't "Shut Up" While Jon is more experienced, he is still making mistakes in not giving his small council insight on what he is thinking of doing; that got him stabbed once to death.

What is this 'small council' that you are talking about? As far as I can see, Davos had no issues with Jon's decisions and he seemed annoyed by Sansa's interruptions. Brienne did not seem to like it either. LF was the only person who was enjoying the arguments.

And no. Jon did not get stabbed because he did not listen to a 'small council'. He got stabbed because a bunch of small minded people could not see the greater threat beyond the wall and wanted to deal with petty squabbles instead. He is trying to get rid of those petty squabbles now and unite the North

9 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

All said and done, they both were correct and both have timing issues and issues of experience

Sorry, but I just don't think there is any equivalence here. At all. Jon has had real experience in leading and commanding people. Jon knows what it's like when people under his command undermine him. What was Jon's issues with timing? As KITN he made some decisions regarding what he thinks should be done to the children of the former houses to unite the North against an impending WW threat. He was putting an end to infighting and putting the focus on the threat - sending freefolk to man the wall, train everyone, mine for dragonglass etc.  I don't see anything wrong with what he did this episode.

7 minutes ago, benteen said:

Killing Lord Karstark was the morally right thing to do (and Robb made some good points about potential insubordination if he let him live) but tactically it was a complete disaster for Robb.  Holding Karstark hostage to continue to garner support from his men and then send him to the Wall afterwards would have been the correct play for keeping his army together.

And Jon is being more pragmatic - he exiles Melisandre instead of executing her. He forgives the children of the traitors.

Also it's easy to say that Robb and Ned should have done this or that in hindsight, knowing what we do now. GRRM stacked the odds against them, putting them in impossible situations.

1 minute ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think people are being a little hard on Sansa. In the following scene with Jon she was completely respectful of him and the two of them had a real dialogue about how to rule.

I was getting whiplash from the Sansa scenes. She undermines him in front of everyone, then later tells him that he is a good ruler and leader. She tells him he is like Joffrey, then tells him he is not. She tells him to not to be like Ned and Robb, despite him not being like Ned and Robb. Mess.

I did like Tormund's snark about the freefolk being the new NW - awkward! Lord Glover was not happy about that!

I did like Lord Glover's appearance but yes, I am getting a bit tired of Lyanna Mormont. BTW what's wrong with knitting? Warm clothes are also important with winter here.

[Constantinople]

I guess Sam is getting some kind of advanced placement given that he's working with the archmaester, but I suspect Sam's education could be sped up a bit more.  I suspect he knows more about Ravens than the average Citadel student.

[jeansheridan]

11 hours ago, snowblossom2 said:

Loved everything except the Ed Sheeran cameo

I didn't know who he was and given it was a celeb cameo, I thought handled well. 

[jeansheridan]

48 minutes ago, stagmania said:

One would think that being Lady of Winterfell and having a seat at the King in the North's right hand would be enough to satisfy that.

But she can't just sit on her tush doing nothing.  And I don't see dissatisfaction exactly.  I see a woman trying to figure out angles.  Sophie has a grumpy resting face and her thinking face is a bit stern.  She is thinking, trying to plot, trying to figure out how to reach Jon.  And Cersei is as real to her as the Night King is to Jon.  Jon should try to learn from her. If Robb had listened to his mother at key times, no Red Wedding. 

[Tikichick]

9 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Did ya'll notice that the Inn at the Crossroads was added to the opening credits? I had to rewind because it went by so fast but it was there, right before it panned to the Twins. I was surprised the Baratheon stag is still over King's Landing and not the Lannister lion. I was disappointed the Targaryen dragon was not above Dragonstone. Someone said the direwolf over Winterfell is different but it looks the same to me.

 

Quite possibly the Inn was featured because of what we saw last night.  IMO it was no mere coincidence that THAT sword was stabbed into the upturned earth precisely when and where the bodies of the Hound's victim's were being buried -- and we got to watch the Hound seeing into the flames there as well.  

Really Jamie, you said it yourself, your baby boy is dead.  Yet you're still able to be in the same room and breathe the same air as Cersei, let alone are prepared to still serve her?

At this point it looks like all roads are leading to Dragonstone and the castle closest to the sea with a mountain shaped like an arrowhead (obsidian?).

[jeansheridan]

11 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Still, Jaime?  So even the last dead kid and smoking hole where the sept was wasn't a deal breaker for you?  You're making it hard to remember how much I love your book counterpart.

I understand your point but what option does show Jaime have?  Who would be his allies?  Bronn?  Bronn and Jaime on the road, no family, no money, no army?  If Jaime removes Cersei from power, then how does he survive?  Assuming he isn't suicidal?  He knows nothing about Dany but she is an invading force into his home country and priority one is taking down his family.  He has men under his command.  Families to protect (maybe the point of that Lannister soldier scene was to remind us that the soldiers have lives, hopes, families).  I guess he could remove Cersei but since he won't kill her she is always a threat.

[Hana Chan]

8 hours ago, screamin said:

I totally agree that all this jockeying for power among the living while the dead approach is a bunch of aristocratic idiots square-dancing on the edge of the abyss. But the whole Game of Thrones has been about that, and the squabbling aristocrats won't tear their eyes away from the toys they're fighting over till they see the dead for themselves. Unfortunately, that won't happen to the south for awhile, and aristocratic idiots accustomed to the use of armies and assassins can still be dangerous, despite the stupidities of their motives.

Exactly. Thus far, there is only one ruler who really appreciates just what is going on and there are sharp lines being drawn by those who are still engaged in the "little war" of who sits on what seat of power, and who really sees what is at stake. Right now, Sansa, Littlefinger, Cersi, and Dany are focused on the little war, whereas Jon, Davos, the Nights Watch and the Wildlings are aware of the much bigger picture. Jon has to prioritize what is the bigger, more important threat vs the smaller, more immediate threat that Cerci may or may not pose. Even Dany, who spoke about "breaking" the wheel is only looking to do so in order to restore her family's rule over Westeros. The only one who's looking and able to really break the wheel is still north of the wall and is coming with an army that will devour everything in its path.

Sansa would have a much stronger leg to stand on if she gave Jon some real concrete information that he could actually use in a substantive way, not just vague generalities. Cerci is a direct threat to him? How? What method has she used to take out her enemies? What agents does she still have at her command? Who are her direct allies that are in position to cause Jon trouble? It was the same as it was with Ramsey, where she couldn't give Jon anything that would really help him (number of men at Ramsey's command, whether he depended more on archers or cavalry, etc). For all that she's been around some of the most devious individuals in Westeros, she hasn't picked up any intelligence that would be particularly useful. If she wants to have her opinions taken seriously, she has to give Jon something more than stuff that he's already probably pretty well aware of. If she really believes that Cersi is such an immediate threat to Jon, she's got to give him very clear reasons why and how.

As for Cersi, she certainly painted herself into a corner. She expended so much capital to get the throne that she's got nearly nothing left to help her keep it. Her allies are so nonexistent that she's looking to Euron, which is never a good idea. She's right that she's got enemies in all directions and while she's ruthless in a way that few people really can appreciate, she's now very, very short of options. The one asset that she's really got left is Jamie and she's liable to waste him and the Lannister forces in an effort to consolidate power. She's a cornered rat and can be dangerous unless properly contained. But there's not a whole lot that would stop someone else from taking her out permanently. 

[Helena Dax]

Wow, that opening scene was extremely satisfying! The Red Toast, heh.

I think Sansa's being badly written since she left the Vale. To me, it's clear that the writers don't understand the character. What's her motivation? Jon and Bran want to stop the WW, Cersei and Dany want to rule Westeros, Arya wants revenge... But what Sansa does want? It's okay if some characters are ambiguous -Varys, LF-, but Sansa shouldn't be one of them, because then everything she does comes across as confusing. 

I'm so surprised to see Dany in Westeros! I really thought they were going to milk the sea travel for some episodes. What I don't understand is why there was no one waiting for them. And by "no one", I mean Cersei's soldiers. 

[mac123x]

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I'm officially  over Lyanna Mormont. Someone needs to tell her to sit her little ass down and stop acting so damn tough all the time.  It's getting tedious.

I agree with this   Unfortunately, you can tell that D&D like the actress, so she'll be shoe-horned in whenever they can, even if it's immersion breaking or damages the scene.  At least (hopefully) they learned a lesson from the last time they fell in love with an actor (Elaria Sand) and won't create a separate horrid plot line for Lyanna.  At a minimum, I hope she isn't one of the envoys to Dani; that would be painful to watch.

6 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I was disappointed the Targaryen dragon was not above Dragonstone. Someone said the direwolf over Winterfell is different but it looks the same to me.

Also missing from the title sequence -- the Lion sigil on the Red Keep in Kings Landing.  They did include it behind the iron throne when Cercei was chatting with Euron, so I was surprised the map wasn't changed.

 

Speaking of Euron, I wonder what the priceless gift he's getting for Cercei is.  If the show was following the books more closely with him, I'd say "one of the dragons", but they skipped the entire Dragonbinder horn plot thread, so I'm guessing it's something more in keeping with his cartoonish villainy, like Dany's head or something.

 

I understand the symbolism and stuff for why Dany landed on Dragonstone, but from a tactical PoV it was kind of stupid.  They need a beach-head on the mainland, not an island in Blackwater Bay that can be cut off by Euron's fleet.   I think Jaime's recollection about how Euron started the last Greyjoy rebellion by burning the Lannister ships in harbor was some heavy-handed foreshadowing. 

[arjumand]

7 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

And this moment reminded me of a few seasons back when another frightened girl, a redhead like Alys Karstark, faced a hostile court and was punished for the sins of her father, and brother. It was particularly off-putting that Sansa was ready to inflict the same unfair treatment on others.  See, that's why although I can feel for her when terrible things happen to her, I can't truly love her. 

OMG, this exactly. This so much. Up till this episode, I really liked Sansa - she was my favourite character next to Jon. And then that scene - I mean, I agreed with giving the castles to his supporters, at first, because I thought that all the Karstark and Umber heirs were dead. I'd forgotten about Alys, TBH.

And then I realise that no, there are heirs - and they're children. And at this point I'm torn between face-palming and eye-rolling. I made excuses for last season's Sansa - don't do the thing! No, I can't tell you any alternatives, just don't do the thing!

But now I can't. I mean, what is she suggesting? Behead a child and a teenager? Oh, I know! Get someone to tear off Alys's clothes and beat her with the flat of his sword - that'll teach her to have traitors as relatives.

Ughh. I'm trying not to be too annoyed about this, because it's clearly a clumsy way to create 'conflict' between Sansa and Jon - I just wish it wasn't at Sansa's expense. I liked Sansa's putdowns of Littlefinger, though.

I'm not going into the whole could Cersei send an army / an assassin / a trained lion to kill Jon, because along with Moat Caillin they've also forgotten the swamps at the Neck -I mean, there are swamps, filled with alligators, as far as I know.

One of the things that struck me is Cersei is profoundly stupid. She's already done this - she armed the Faith, gave them a lot of power, and then lost control of them and they ended up imprisoning her. Now she's inviting the Ironborn in, giving them access to the city. It's the same move, and I suspect it'll end in the same way.

Now Sam, to me, seemed like a red herring - if the montage of shit was to show the passage of time, we realise that all he learned in his weeks (months?) at the Citadel was something he knew already, that Dragonstone has dragonglass out the wazoo. But we knew that, and he knew that - he even said it: "Stannis told me . . ." It's almost like the real reason he was there was to hear Jorah ask about the Dragon Queen - operative word 'dragon'.

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, anamika said:

I was getting whiplash from the Sansa scenes. She undermines him in front of everyone, then later tells him that he is a good ruler and leader. She tells him he is like Joffrey, then tells him he is not. She tells him to not to be like Ned and Robb, despite him not being like Ned and Robb. Mess.

Undermine/ she brought up a good point and put down Lord Royce gently, the best choice I think was to put 2 loyalist in charge of the castles and hold the children as wards until they came of age, and if Jon put his ideas to Sansa ( it is her home by blood )she, Jon and Davos may have come up with this plan and they be on the same page, he is still doing what he did at the wall. 

She does not say he's like Joffrey, she states " Joffery never let anyone question his authority do you think he was a good king?"

Jon is the one who felt she was saying that in his thought processes, and yes he was being like Ned and Robb, being too trusting with people especially two families who days / weeks  prior betrayed them by handing over their youngest brother, supported the people who betrayed their family and raped his sister.

Those children may be innocent but there are the regents with them that may have supported the choices that the Lords of Umber and Karstark did.

As I say prior, the better plan would have been replace the regents add his own loyal people and ward the children at Winterfell or a solid house loyal to the Starks.

[benteen]

Quote

Still, Jaime?  So even the last dead kid and smoking hole where the sept was wasn't a deal breaker for you?  You're making it hard to remember how much I love your book counterpart.

D&D abandoned Jaime's far superior book counterpart and his compelling storyline a long, long time ago.

[TaurusRose]

8 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I loved Jon. Loved him, can't believe how much. He was honorable like Ned and Robb, but unlike them (Robb in particular) allied honor with simple good sense ("we need everyone") and political astuteness.  I bet that Karstarks and Umbers will be as devoted to him as the Mormonts are now. His direct and reasonable attitude when dealing with Sansa afterwards gave him more points in my book. His encouraging smile at those two frightened kids facing a hostile court endeared him to me.

And this moment reminded me of a few seasons back when another frightened girl, a redhead like Alys Karstark, faced a hostile court and was punished for the sins of her father, and brother. It was particularly off-putting that Sansa was ready to inflict the same unfair treatment on others....Whether it was a piss poor attempt at manipulation or a silly reaction of frustration because Jon wasn't budging,  excuse me but here I have to go back to my S1 motto with her: Shut up, Sansa.

I really loved the last scenes. Dany is finally in Westeros, and considering how long people have been waiting for this moment,  music replacing dialogues made it more solemn and emotional for me.

I am so onboard with your entire post, but snipped generously to avoid repeating.

[WatchrTina]

23 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Did ya'll notice that the Inn at the Crossroads was added to the opening credits?

I didn't notice that but I did notice Oldtown.  THAT was cool.  That's the first time we've seen it, isn't it?

Regarding Euron -- Cersei rejects his "proposal" but he never actually proposed.  He couched his words in vague terms that could just as easily mean that we wants to marry Daenerys.  That's what book-Euron is after where the books left off and TV-Euron is so arrogant I wouldn't but it past him to believe that he could close that deal even with Yara & Theon already poisoning the Dragon Queen's mind against him.  And as for that "gift" he promised -- yeah the most logical thing would be for him to bring Cersei the head of Tyrion on a platter but he'd have to defeat the Dragon Queen's fleet (including the Greyjoy ships AND her dragons) to do that (not likely) so I have to assume the gift is something else.  I'm afraid the gift he has planned is the dragon-hijacking horn we saw in the book.

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

And this moment reminded me of a few seasons back when another frightened girl, a redhead like Alys Karstark, faced a hostile court and was punished for the sins of her father, and brother. It was particularly off-putting that Sansa was ready to inflict the same unfair treatment on others. 

At what point did Sansa advocate physically and mentally abusing Alys Karstark or that the rest of her family be murdered?  Because that was the treatment to which Sansa was subjected.

And how is it unfair to Alys or the the Karstarks in general if they're not the Lords of Karhold?  They don't have a god given right to it.

[nodorothyparker]

18 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I understand your point but what option does show Jaime have?  Who would be his allies?  Bronn?  Bronn and Jaime on the road, no family, no money, no army?  If Jaime removes Cersei from power, then how does he survive?  Assuming he isn't suicidal?  He knows nothing about Dany but she is an invading force into his home country and priority one is taking down his family.  He has men under his command.  Families to protect (maybe the point of that Lannister soldier scene was to remind us that the soldiers have lives, hopes, families).  I guess he could remove Cersei but since he won't kill her she is always a threat.

Fair point.  That actually raises an interesting question for me.  The crown doesn't have a standing army and is thus dependent on the army of whatever house the ruler is from to maintain its hold on power.  As much as the show doesn't seem to remember it, with Tywin dead and Jaime no longer a member of the Kingsguard, Jaime is the lord paramount of the Westerlands and thus should be head of the Lannister army.  He had a curious line to Bronn about that last season about how he expected to be head of the entire army soon, and I thought "wait, as their lord aren't you already in charge of the whole thing?" This isn't the book where you're still excluded from the succession as a member of the Kingsguard and there are still other Lannisters about to run things.

But Jaime's not the ruler on the Iron Throne commanding that army, Cersei as queen is.  I wonder if there's any precedent for that should they end up at cross purposes, and no, I haven't had the inclination to read the seeming 5,712 pages George has written about the lives and times of Targaryens past to have any idea. Obviously a ruler isn't going to be a ruler long without the manpower to back it up.

[NYCNJbear06]

Glad the show is back.  With an abbreviated season I was hoping for more action this episode though…

Pet peeves – Arya not going to Winterfell.  As close as she is doesn’t make sense especially because she has to have heard about Sansa and Jon’s victory at Winterfell.  Also, she doesn’t free her uncle.  WTF?

Peeve 2 – why no mention of sending a raven to Winterfell that Bran is at the Wall?  The new Lord Commander who was a personal friend of Jon had to have known or heard about Bran.  That just seems odd and just draws out the Stark Family reunion.

 

The only good thing about Arya heading to Kings Landing is my hope that she runs into Gendry on the way.  My own speculation – Towards the end of their scenes together I kept getting the feeling of a love interest building between the two.  There is still something about Gendry that sparks my interest.  Taking Dani and what we now know about Jon out of the picture I felt that it would be revealed that Gendry is not the bastard of Robert but actually the first born son of Cersi and Robert.  Not sure if it was only mentioned in the books (I think on the show as well) but Cersi mentioned how her 1st child, a boy of dark hair, had died but she never saw the body buried.   Not sure why he would be taken away but I always thought there was more to Gendry than just being a bastard.  If was the actual heir of house B and married Arya she would become queen of the 7 kingdoms which would be a huge plot twist that she became queen and not Sansa.  But again, just speculation. 

[Constantinople]

7 minutes ago, doram said:

By that logic, the Starks don't have a god given right to Winterfell.

They don't, and I never said they did

I merely pointed out how Sansa was treated in King's Landing and what Sansa proposed to do to Alys Karstark aren't comparable

Edited July 17, 2017 by Constantinople

[GrailKing]

11 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think that Jon has to be smarter than Ned and Robb is a fair point and that negates the idea that Sansa is lacking in not having those lessons..

On the other hand, I think having Sansa say she learned from Cersei in an episode where Cessei has is surrounded by enemies on all fronts with no allies points to Jon being right in this instance and Sansa wrong.

I tend to think Robb and Ned would have done what Sansa suggested without her having to prompt it.  I think that not blaming the children for the crimes of the parents is a Jon thing stemming from being a bastard.

I think Robb ( if he learned anything at all ) would put the children under wardship and place his own people in charge; same for  Ned, we know he won't kill innocent children, but giving Umber and Karstark  too much leniency  would result like KL did for him.

Sansa is basing things on her experience also, from each of their life experiences they are correct, the problem is as children they rarely talked to each other and Cat was a big influence / hindrance to them both.

Edited July 17, 2017 by GrailKing

[WatchrTina]

Upthread someone wished for a future scene with Brienne training Sansa and young Lady Mormont.  I agreed but I said I didn't think Sansa would agree to be trained.  Now I'm re-thinking that.  Season 1 Sansa would certainly never agree to pick up a nasty sword and train with it like a boy (ew, gross!)  But season 7 Sansa? Now I'm thinking it likely that she's going to be getting some training in her bedroom on the handling of knives and how to protect herself in close-quarters combat.  Brienne's already lost one patron to a sneaky assassin. I'm hoping she'll decide that training Sansa in self-defense is part of her duty as sworn sword.

[Gwen-Stacys]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Sansa's decision was about securing loyalty, so I doubt she would have gone along with Robb's decision at the time.

And Jon was in no way pulling a Tywin, unless there's some Little Lord Timmy Reyne of Castamere we have yet to hear about.

Tywin Lanister to Joffrey circa season 2 "When your enemy comes against you on the battelfield, you crush him. But when your enemy bends the knee, you help them back up." That is literally what Jon did this episode. He mentioned both Lord Karstark and Lord Umber dying on the battlefield, then brought attention to the new Lords (both children, by the way) that came to Winterfell with hopes of bending the knee. It is what Tywin ministered to do, verbatim.. Tyrion when he's counselling Dani on what to do with Jorah more or less tells her the same thing. Why? Because being merciful when people show contrition inspires loyalty. 

Besides that, who would Sansa have given the holdfasts to? A small Lord for Bear Island? A wildling? People who have no hope of holding it if those disposed families decided to revolt against them. Jon's point to Sansa is that they don't have time for that. Not with the Night king. Not that Sansa was wrong with her opinion, but that she was wrong for the time and place she chose to voice that opinion. He welcomes her disagreement so long as she shares it at the right time. They need to show a united front, and she more or less threw that out the window. She had time leading up to the meeting to say it to him, but, for some reason, Sansa decided to hold that one close to her vest. Book Sansa would've never done what Tv Sansa did this episode.

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Sansa's decision was about securing loyalty, so I doubt she would have gone along with Robb's decision at the time.

And Jon was in no way pulling a Tywin, unless there's some Little Lord Timmy Reyne of Castamere we have yet to hear about.

The Reynes were destroyed because they openly defied their liege Lord who they saw as weak - a personal affront to House Lannister, and then they refused to surrender and bend the knee continuing their defiance. Tywin showed no mercy in that case.

However, Tywin's attitude about defeated foes who do surrender and bend the knee is more pragmatic. 

Like Tywin with the Reynes of Castamere, Jon had to destroy Ramsay Bolton and he was ready to beat Ramsay to death with his bare hands, although he finally let Sansa determine the manner of Ramsay's death. In any case, Ramsay had to be taken down in a similar manner for his personal affront to House Stark.  

But the children of those defeated houses that joined the Bolton forces were willing to swear fealty and pledge their levies to Jon's cause so I think he made the right decision to show mercy in their case.

[quazimodo]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

 

I'm over Lyanna Mormont.  

 

As am I. With winter being here you will need those "useless girly tasks" like knitting and sewing unless you want your troops to freeze to death. 

[Tikichick]

I'd love to see Lady Lyanna cross paths with Lady Olenna.  It might give her a new plan for the future of Highgarden, a hopeful one.

I realize there's no plausible reason this meeting should happen, I simply find it more preferable than the Sand Snakes.   

[Alapaki]

I realize that scenes are sometimes used just for exposition, and sometimes just to give the actor something to sink their teeth into.  

But given the limited number of episodes this season, I'm having a hard time finding a justification for the scene with Euron.

No one in that scene said anything that we didn't already know, and hadn't already been shown.  

And what was Cersei's motivation?  She knew what Euron's offer would be, because she told Jaime ahead of time.  Why see Euron only to reject the offer? 

Was it to toy with Euron?  To make Jaime jealous by parading a suitor in front of him?  I'd hope that Cersei would be smart enough to be above those sorts of things by now.

However I was pleased to see, in the earlier scene with the floor-map, the show finally explicitly address the absolute weakness of the Lannister position.  I can't recall them having done that in the past.

[jeansheridan]

36 minutes ago, arjumand said:

But now I can't. I mean, what is she suggesting? Behead a child and a teenager? Oh, I know! Get someone to tear off Alys's clothes and beat her with the flat of his sword - that'll teach her to have traitors as relatives.

She just suggested they lose their homes, nothing else.  I agree with Jon's choice but Sansa never said to kill them.  Losing your home is bad of course but given what happened, seemed a reasonable punishment for the families. She wasn't evil or cruel to suggest it.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, quazimodo said:

As am I. With winter being here you will need those "useless girly tasks" like knitting and sewing unless you want your troops to freeze to death. 

I'm over the cliche of the plain-speaking, wiser-than-her-years grand-standing speeches of a 10-year-old. Look how plucky she is! And how much common sense she has!

I actually like the character. I like Davos, and I'm sure they'll forge a connection, just like Shireen and Davos. And when Lyanna is killed and turned into a wight and Davos has to witness that, it'll be heart-breaking for much of the audience, and cloying for the a small minority thereof. 

But her little speech in this episode was a lazy writer's ploy. She had a great entrance. She had a decent rallying speech last season. Now it's become a go-to crutch. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Francie

[anamika]

28 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Undermine/ she brought up a good point and put down Lord Royce gently, the best choice I think was to put 2 loyalist in charge of the castles and hold the children as wards until they came of age, and if Jon put his ideas to Sansa ( it is her home by blood )she, Jon and Davos may have come up with this plan and they be on the same page, he is still doing what he did at the wall. 

Jon has got the loyalty of the children. They swore to him. Why should he remove them and put someone else in there to breed hatred and betrayal again? That's his whole point. The time has come to focus on the greater threat. Davos, an experienced adviser to Stannis, agrees with him. Or if he does not he has the good sense to disagree with Jon in private later on.

Jon's decisions at the wall were the right ones - did you miss the thousands of wildlings he saved or the wildlings he is sending to man the wall? If he had listened to the likes of Alliser and Slynt, there would be more dead wights marching their way.

33 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She does not say he's like Joffrey, she states " Joffery never let anyone question his authority do you think he was a good king?"

 And hence she was comparing him to Joffrey because he did not allow her to undermine him in front of the houses.

33 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Jon is the one who felt she was saying that in his thought processes, and yes he was being like Ned and Robb, being too trusting with people especially two families who days / weeks  prior betrayed them by handing over their youngest brother, supported the people who betrayed their family and raped his sister.

How was he being too trusting? So you are saying, from now even if the children of traitors come ask for forgiveness they must be punished and stripped of their lands? What if the children go off and come back for revenge like Arya? Karstark switched sides because Robb executed his father. What if Alys does the same?

These children are now in charge of castles that are the first line of defense against the WW. They have more important things to do than planning rebellion. The WW are an impending threat and that's going to be the focus of the North.

[Constantinople]

8 minutes ago, Gwen-Stacys said:

Tywin Lanister to Joffrey circa season 2 "When your enemy comes against you on the battelfield, you crush him. But when your enemy bends the knee, you help them back up." That is literally what Jon did this episode. He mentioned both Lord Karstark and Lord Umber dying on the battlefield, then brought attention to the new Lords (both children, by the way) that came to Winterfell with hopes of bending the knee. It is what Tywin ministered to do, verbatim..

Tywin and Joffrey never met in Season 2.

In any case, Tywin is full of self serving BS.  In Season 1 when Tyrion was complaining about the behavior of the Hill Tribes, Tywin said that if soldiers misbehave it's the fault of the commander  In Season 4, Tywin denied all responsibility for what the Mountain did to Elia Martell and her children.

Getting back to the Reynes, I very much double there were no child aged Reynes that Tywin could have spared.  So once again, what Tywin says, and what he does, are two different things.

[Hana Chan]

Looking at a map of the North, there is a very good reason for Jon to not play politics with the Umber and Karstark lands. They are the first line of defence after the Wall. Removing those families and installing Stark loyalists would be disastrous because it would 1) would vastly compromise their defenses at a critical point that would most likely be the first line of defense and 2) would thin out their defenses further down the line by forcing Jon to assign other houses to pick up the slack. Jon sparing the Umber and Karstark heirs (both of which are children) and letting them retain their lands and titles in exchange for their oath of loyalty was both compassionate and pragmatic.

[Francie]

Season 7 Jaime:

I know every city, road, mountain and lake in Westeros.

 

Season 5 Jaime, pointing to Tarth:

Is that Estemont?

Edited July 17, 2017 by Francie

[Alapaki]

Logistically, what happens if Jon goes along with Sansa and takes the property from those two families?  Surely there are more than just the two kids left.  Are the remaining members of those families (and the people formerly loyal to them) all executed?  Do they become "subjects" of whichever house is given those properties?  

It would seem that they would largely become refugees who'd head South.  The fighters amongst them would therefore provide men for the Lannister/Crown army.  

Meanwhile, their departure deprives the North of arms it will need to fight the Night King.  

Conversely, keeping those families where they are will likely keep them "loyal", because they'll have a shared interest: i.e. not becoming undead snow zombies.  And that's the only real basis of "loyalty" that you can count on.  Scores can be settled next Spring.

[jeansheridan]

4 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

in that scene said anything that we didn't already know, and hadn't already been shown.  

I did not know Jaime fought against the Greyjoys.   And Tyrion mentioned Lannister sailors burning last season so we got a corroboration of the event.  Another person got to mock Jaime and confirmed that their relationship is now an open secret.  I am always happy to see Jaime smolder.

[Gwen-Stacys]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Tywin and Joffrey never met in Season 2.

In any case, Tywin is full of self serving BS.  In Season 1 when Tyrion was complaining about the behavior of the Hill Tribes, Tywin said that if soldiers misbehave it's the fault of the commander  In Season 4, Tywin denied all responsibility for what the Mountain did to Elia Martell and her children.

Getting back to the Reynes, I very much double there were no child aged Reynes that Tywin could have spared.  So once again, what Tywin says, and what he does, are two different things.

You know what I meant :P  Doesn't  matter when he said it, he said it. Tywin might not follow his own advice, but Tyrion ironically does. And, to be fair, Tywin sent the mountain kill the Targaryen kids as a present to Robert. Ellia Martel wasn't supposed to be hurt, if memory serves correct. The Mountain did that on his own.

[Normades]

3 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

Logistically, what happens if Jon goes along with Sansa and takes the property from those two families?  Surely there are more than just the two kids left.  Are the remaining members of those families (and the people formerly loyal to them) all executed?  Do they become "subjects" of whichever house is given those properties?  

It would seem that they would largely become refugees who'd head South.  The fighters amongst them would therefore provide men for the Lannister/Crown army.  

Meanwhile, their departure deprives the North of arms it will need to fight the Night King.  

Conversely, keeping those families where they are will likely keep them "loyal", because they'll have a shared interest: i.e. not becoming undead snow zombies.  And that's the only real basis of "loyalty" that you can count on.  Scores can be settled next Spring.

I totally agree with this.  Jon was being pragmatic.  He knows he needs every warm body to fight the Night King, so he showed mercy and hopes that it will promote loyalty.  I think there's a lot that goes into his decision and I wonder if the fact the he has actually experienced death himself has led him to be more merciful.

Overall I loved the episode and was thrilled to have GoT back.  I can't believe we only get six more episodes!!  

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

On a gloss through kind of watch, the opening scene is highly entertaining, but a bit troubling. So a 20-year-old girl can imitate a 90-year-old man for more than two minutes? On re-watch, the whole thing falls apart. Did she bring the poison with her from Bravos? Did she concoct it the Frey kitchen? Did the cooks wonder who this girl was cooking in the kitchen? Did she have serving people fill the poison into the goblets? Did she do it herself? Did she do it wearing Wakder Fred's coat, which would've been scraping the ground?  Did she do it as the serving girl who apparently had just dragged Walder Frey's body out back?

Arya's plan didn't happen over the course of a single day. As Walder, she talks about how she summoned all the Freys back to the Twins after they left the previous feast. All we know is that the two feasts happened with the same "fortnight." Which is still pretty quick (I don't know why the GoT writers are so obsessed with having every big event happen within a fortnight of the last big event; just let months and years pass, for Chrissake!), but not so much so that the plan needs to have the timing of a French farce.

As the Freys were reassembling, Arya would've had ample time to give directions to the household as Walder, establish the authority of her serving girl persona, poison the wine, etc.

Quote

The whole thing about the multiple faces, was that you could change your appearance a bit. But it didn't change your height, or your hands, or your weight.  The faces aren't infused with magic. And even if they were, did Arya bring this magic with her from Bravos? From the get-go, that took me out of the show.  It's sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.

Wait, of course the faces are magic. The Faceless Men preserve just the front part of the face, and when you put it on it conveys a full-body glamour. That's how Jaqen was able to take on the appearance of a stocky old black man, how Arya stole the face of the little girl to kill Meryn Trant and gained the girl's long red hair, and so on.

It's a bit of a cheat that Arya's able to preserve new faces herself, but I assume we're meant to believe that she learned the process during her months of training -- and that she's somehow gained the blessing of the Many-Faced God, since she's not going blind from wearing the faces anymore.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Dev F