S07.E01: Dragonstone

[Raachel2008]

5 hours ago, screamin said:

IIRC, there was quite a bit of shouting went up after Jon decreed that girls and women would drill militarily, that seemed to indicate that objection to the idea was more widespread than just one man (Glover). I could be wrong about that.

No, the shouting was about the punishment for the Karstarks and Umbers. Nobody said anything about training the girls or every person from 10 to 60. Only Glover.

 

18 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

You can't just conjure a skilled army with a decision to do so.  It was meant to be a "Hell, yeah!" type of moment and it was more of an "Hell...huh?"  because Jon's talking about fighting that army of the dead that cut a swath through brothers of the Night's Watch, what in the world does he think the children (or the untrained) are going to be able to do that will help?  Trip them?   

That kind of thinking is a bit narrow minded. First of all, they will learn how to defend themselves; they will learn how to be alert and think a bit strategically, and the little they learn can save their lives.  Second,  Jon already has been through that, when he joined the NightWatchers and Sir Allistair used him to train the other young crows. None of them knew how to fight yet they did and really well. Some survived. Some died but allowed others to live - see Grenn, and yes I know the willdings are not the WWs. Third, Jon doesn't know when the WWs will come, so he may have two days or two years. Third, a child of ten won't be able to hold a sword like one of the adults, but he/she can use a sword like Needle, use a bow, a knife, anything. They can help making fires and arrows, they can use flaming arrows.  Fourth, Jon knows how to kill the WWs: dragonglass. He has a plan: find it, mine it, make weapons. He can't conjure a skilled army, but he can try to build an army that with the right weapons and a lot of luck may be able to not ne decimated.

Are the odds that all those people from 10 to 60 that never had fighting training or hasn't fight in years will be slaughtered by the WW? Of course. But at least they will have a chance and won't be sitting in the caves waiting to be maimed like all those kids and women in LOTF - Two Towers.

 

5 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

It was certainly more than Glover who objected. He just objected the loudest.

No, it was not.  You can rewatch the scene, only Glover reacts.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Raachel2008

[Oscirus]

57 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Harrenhal

This is basically a suicide group. They'd be catching Dany by surprise. Dragons likely wouldn't be aware of such an attack until after it already happened.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Oscirus

[that one guy]

3 hours ago, Athena said:

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Thats begs a popular internet question. If they knew where Dany was landing, why did they let her land there?

Most people consider Dragonstone useless. It's why Robert kicked Stannis there after the rebellion. It's a good strategic point to launch if you have forces but in terms of actual economic value, no reason for Cersei or Euron to pick a battle there. Cersei is broke, diminished resources/allies, and has too many enemies to start another battle easily. Euron can take the ships with his fleet but he'd be risking damage from dragons.

Some uber-geekery here, sorry. King's Landing didn't exist until Aegon the Conqueror landed there, hence the name. Prior to the Conquest, the Targaryens had held Dragonstone. They, along with the Velaryons of Driftmark and the Celtigars of Claw Island, represented an outpost of the Valyrian Freehold before the Doom, and the three islands would have been economically significant since most trade with Valyria passed through their ports. In this week's episode, Jaime mentions that Dragonstone has a deep water port. After the Doom, of course, trade with Valyria was no longer a thing - one of the impacts on Westeros with the end of access to imported Valyrian steel. All these named Valyrian steel swords would have to have been purchased from the Targaryens, and they didn't come cheap. Trade with Essos wouldn't have picked up for a while after the Doom. By the time it became economically significant again, the Targaryens were building a new port at King's Landing. After the conquest, Dragonstone was politically important, because the heir to the throne typically held Dragonstone - that's why Stannis was initially given the seat, as Robert's heir until he had children. But I agree, he was sore about it, not just because it had no economic value, but because it has fewer castles/houses pledged to it. The area was sparsely populated before the conquest, and currently the overwhelming majority of the population of the Crownlands lives in King's Landing and pays taxes directly to the Crown, not to Dragonstone.  

But as Stannis demonstrated, it's still strategically important - controlling Dragonstone allows an enemy to enforce a naval blockade of King's Landing, and conversely, as long as the Crown controls Dragonstone, King's Landing can neither be blockaded nor attacked from the sea. So Cersei was foolish not to seize Dragonstone when it was abandoned.  In the books, the threat is recognized, and a force is dispatched to retake it after Stannis heads north - this is where Ser Loras is grievously injured. But it's value is military, not economic. As the Iron Bank guy points out to Stannis in Season 4, Dragonstone doesn't have the farmland to feed an army.

The larger neighboring island of Driftmark may be more productive, although unlike Dragonstone it contains a sizeable town (Hull) and two castles, suggesting residents may consume most of the food produced. In addition, the fact that Driftmark was once home to an untamed dragon named Sheepstealer suggests that much of its agricultural land may be used primarily for grazing rather than farming. House Velaryon, being of Valyrian descent and heavily intermarried with the Targaryens, would be a likely ally for Danaerys, especially now that Stannis is dead - in the books, however, the Velaryons are as close to extinction as the Targaryens, being reduced to a child Lord and a bastard uncle who apparently stole the royal fleet and ran off to become a pirate.

[DigitalCount]

In the TV show thread they're saying that Sam's surprise was mostly because he didn't know how much obsidian was on Dragonstone. I think he was assuming there was a good amount and later found out that they could essentially grab any old piece of the island and make a dragonglass weapon. I haven't rewatched yet so I can't say, but that's a legit reading.

[OhOkayWhat]

30 minutes ago, that one guy said:

So Cersei was foolish not to seize Dragonstone when it was abandoned.

We don't know when it was abandoned. Remember each plot timeline can be independent.

31 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

In the TV show thread they're saying that Sam's surprise was mostly because he didn't know how much obsidian was on Dragonstone. I think he was assuming there was a good amount and later found out that they could essentially grab any old piece of the island and make a dragonglass weapon. I haven't rewatched yet so I can't say, but that's a legit reading.

Yes, I mean, only a part of the island is dragonglass, but more or less, that is correct. Therefore, I did not see continuity errors in that scene.

Edited July 21, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Raachel2008]

21 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

52 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

In the TV show thread they're saying that Sam's surprise was mostly because he didn't know how much obsidian was on Dragonstone. I think he was assuming there was a good amount and later found out that they could essentially grab any old piece of the island and make a dragonglass weapon. I haven't rewatched yet so I can't say, but that's a legit reading.

Yes, I mean, only a part of the island is dragonglass, but more or less, that is correct. Therefore, I did not see continuity errors in that scene.

Edited 18 minutes ago by OhOkayWhat.

I don't think that was clear - that he was suprised by the amount of dragonglass. The writing failed there.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

This is basically a suicide group. They'd be catching Dany by surprise. Dragons likely wouldn't be aware of such an attack until after it already happened.

Good luck finding a group willing to commit mass suicide on Cersei's behalf.  They'd either flee Dragonstone or surrender immediately.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

I don't think that was clear - that he was suprised by the amount of dragonglass. The writing failed there.

Even if we say the dialogue is "unclear" (I have my own opinion on that), I think that to write a dialogue in an "unclear" way, doesn't imply necessarily a continuity mistake or retconning.

Edited July 21, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[stillshimpy]

4 hours ago, Francie said:

My dream -- post credit -- ending to the series:

We hear a voice from the Frey dungeon. "Hello? Anyone out there? Roslyn? Walder Frey? Kingslayer? Uncle Brynden?"

Edmure Tully is the poster child for AWG

I may simply be misremembering but I thought when last seen Edmure Tully was at Riverrun as opposed to The Twins?  So isn't he in someone else's dungeon?  

Perhaps next they'll ship him off to Harrenhal and he can just write the extensive travel guide to the Seven Kingdom lockups because the man has seen the inside of a few cells by now.  He's probably somewhere dank, hoping for the invention of the hot-tub by enterprising wizards.  

[nodorothyparker]

31 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I may simply be misremembering but I thought when last seen Edmure Tully was at Riverrun as opposed to The Twins?  So isn't he in someone else's dungeon?  

Perhaps next they'll ship him off to Harrenhal and he can just write the extensive travel guide to the Seven Kingdom lockups because the man has seen the inside of a few cells by now.  He's probably somewhere dank, hoping for the invention of the hot-tub by enterprising wizards.  

Walder tells Jaime at the end of last season before the Frey Pie incident that Edmure is back in his cell.  I assumed he meant at the Twins since that's where he had been imprisoned before.

Unless the show is just interested in who's actually in charge of the Riverlands now that nearly anybody with any claim to it at all is dead Edmure seems likely to end up going down the Gendry road of the past couple of seasons.  We know he's somewhere out of the way, we just don't know where. 

[Haleth]

13 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Good luck finding a group willing to commit mass suicide on Cersei's behalf.  They'd either flee Dragonstone or surrender immediately.

Ha!  Remember in the book the guy that Cersei names as admiral of her fleet, the one that reminds her of Raegar?  As soon as he faces a battle (against the Ironborn?) he turns tail and disappears with the fleet.

12 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

I may simply be misremembering but I thought when last seen Edmure Tully was at Riverrun as opposed to The Twins?  So isn't he in someone else's dungeon?  

Right.  Didn't Jaime tell Edmure he'd be sent to Casterly Rock if he was able to make the soldiers at Riverrun surrender the castle?

[TarotQueen]

16 hours ago, Dev F said:

So the point of Sam traveling to the other side of the continent to consult the secret knowledge of the kingdom's greatest scholars is to remind the big dumbo that he already knows what obsidian is and where to find it? That might mean it's technically no longer a retcon, but it would still be crummy writing.

Hi.  I think the point of Sam mentioning the Dragonglass and that Stannis had already told him was meant to be a reminder to the more casual viewers of the show of the whole conversation between he and Stannis in the library at Castle Black, and even to remind them of Stannis' previous tie to the island itself. 

You may or may not be like me, but I am always amazed at what my friends and family with whom I view the show don't remember from season to season.  But they aren't book readers nor do they get involved in the fandom online like I do, by watching videos or like, posting here I guess.  My sister didn't even remember Stannis banging Melisandre on the table at Dragonstone, when they were showing the table, until I mentioned it (oh yeah, that's right!  that's when they made the demon baby!)

So if the writers wanted to remind casual viewers of several things at once, the writing might be better than what you're thinking.  Personally, I found nearly all the Citadel scenes pretty aggravating, except the bits with Prof Slughorn and Jorah, but again, I'm a deeper viewer than most.    

[GrailKing]

Hey all if you didn't see it trailer for 2 and 3 I put is the speculation thread newer stuff. 

[stillshimpy]

6 hours ago, Haleth said:

Right.  Didn't Jaime tell Edmure he'd be sent to Casterly Rock if he was able to make the soldiers at Riverrun surrender the castle?

That's what I thought but then Walder said he was back in his cell, I just assumed it would be at Riverrun.  I had no real reason for assuming that but I thought they were stating that specifically to explain why Arya wouldn't be crossing paths with him there.  I think the show wanted to maintain Arya's ability to move around Westeros, looking like Arya, without having run into anyone who would know her as Arya on sight/or it would be exceptionally strange if she did cross paths with him without telling Edmure who she was, even if he hadn't seen her in many years.  

Admittedly, show Edmure has been depicted as such a weak-willed man with terrible fighting judgment, that I can't think of a way in which he'd be useful.   It just would be rather odd if Arya had been in the same castle as Edmure for however long it took to set that whole, "Come, eat, drink, be buried" party and she didn't set him free.  I suppose she could have done it wearing someone else face just to make sure that no "little birds" in anyone's employ could learn of her presence.  

ETA:  By the way, my entire reaction to absolutely everything involve Euron is basically, "Oh ugh, him again" but I kind of assumed that the present he referenced for Cersei was actually Highgarden because, without food, they're screwed.  The Dorne storyline seems to have been as popular as poison, so I thought perhaps Euron was off to menace the crap out of places that currently don't really seem to have heirs but have crucial resources.

Edited July 22, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Raachel2008]

On 20/07/2017 at 9:46 PM, Dev F said:

I mean, neither of those solutions is particularly elegant,

Im sure they are way more elegant than anything D&D will come up with. :)

[paramitch]

On 7/17/2017 at 8:40 PM, Nanrad said:

Here's the thing about Sansa: if she's afraid, has ptsd, etc, she shouldn't be projecting those fears onto Jon and trying to influence his decisions.

Right. Unfortunately, you can't really tell an abused, terrified and traumatized girl that her reaction is inappropriate and she needs to straighten up and react differently. It doesn't work that way. Add to that that she's still seriously just a freaking kid. I have no doubt that Sansa will make mistakes. I just wish she wasn't judged so harshly for each and every moment, expression, and tone she manifests.

On 7/17/2017 at 8:46 PM, stillshimpy said:

But Arya has been viewing anything Lannister related as being like the Lannisters.   I do think she changed her mind about killing them.   I don't think Arya was going to deny the (hoped for) daughter of that man the possibility of ever even meeting him.  Or that he'd never know one way or the other.   I doubt she killed them, very much, she'd have been violating the guest right's in the other direction.  They invited her and treated her as their guest.   She can't kill them if her speech meant anything. 

She tested the good men and they passed. 

I'd be so happy if that moment ended the way it appeared to, and that Arya spared the men.  I loved the scene and I want her to -- not just for their sake, but for hers. As you note here, it would be vital in Arya's journey that she show evidence of knowing when to spare people as well as when to enact vengeance; to realize that the world is in shades of grey.

On 7/18/2017 at 7:22 AM, doram said:

Thank you for saying this! Dany's desire to (re)claim the Iron Throne is constantly written as her being entitled and showing signs of madness, in a way that no other of the contenders is described. 

I disagree. I think Dany is seriously unbalanced because she has repeatedly shown a cruelty in her desire for vengeance that doesn't seem to be reliably predicated on circumstance, guilt or innocence.  (See also her crucifixion of 130+ nobles because of the ruling class's cruel crucifixions as she arrived -- despite the fact that she apparently did not bother to learn which nobles were actually guilty or responsible.) I know she's pretty and sweet (most of the time) but Dany can definitely be cruel and unpredictable and to me she is most definitely a Targaryen in action and narrow viewpoint.

On 7/18/2017 at 7:32 AM, Tikichick said:

Have to disagree.  I think the Sansa who headed off to King's Landing with giddy dreams of marrying Joffrey and becoming queen was colder and less caring of others than the one who exists now.  The one who has survived to this point looks back to the point where we met her and regrets not valuing the people and the home she had then for all it truly was.  She sees Jon as truly her loving brother now.  She doesn't look down on Arya's refusal to act like "a lady".  Winterfell the way it was now seems idyllic to her, versus the hideousness she lived in the Red Keep, constantly wondering if/when Joffrey would snap.  

She's definitely learned a lot about people along the way, and what's really "good" in them.

Thank you for this. I totally agree, and beautifully said. I absolutely do think Sansa loves and accepts Jon as her brother (all previous snottiness forgotten). She has learned from harsh teachers the real value of family.

On 7/18/2017 at 7:44 AM, SeanC said:

It's a bit of both, I'd say.  The spectre of Aerys' madness is a deliberate theme in her story, so its on one level understandable that it comes up.  But Jon, who is also of Targaryen ancestry, never gets that kind of speculation.

When Jon cruelly executes over 100 people as he enters a city without visible regard for their actual guilt, I'll start worrying about his mental health.

On 7/18/2017 at 9:41 AM, LucyHoneychrrch said:

Yes, he's Pete Postlethwaite's son.  He hasn't been in a lot yet, but he's pretty delicious.  

Thanks for this -- I had no idea, and he's beautiful! I was such a fan of his father's work, and I'm delighted his son is acting as well. Pete was unforgettable in so many amazing films.

On 7/18/2017 at 10:15 AM, stillshimpy said:

When Sansa said to Brienne "I know exactly what he wants" she wasn't talking about her hand in marriage or sexual leverage, oh sure, he'd use both but what he wants is something different than that and Sansa knows that.  She already sidestepped his attempt to turn her into Lyssa 2.0 with that "I want what I've always wanted ...." blah blah blah but she knew what part to focus on there.  Not "...I want my beautiful queen"  ....she already knew him well enough to get that the "I want what I've always wanted..." .  Sansa knows he wants the Throne in the final analysis and that people are pretty much meaningless to him as anything other than pawns in his schemes.    

I agree, to an extent. I still see Littlefinger as wearing pretty big blinders where Sansa is concerned. I agree with you that he wants the Iron Throne (the quote that always remains with me is that he would burn the world to the ground to rule over its ashes), but I also think his vision of that victory will not be quite complete without the woman he desires at his side. And Sansa is that woman for him for so many complex reasons tied to Catelyn.

I guess what I'm saying is -- I think there is room there for Sansa to read him, to play him, to ultimately avenge Ned and outmaneuver him. If she can. I'm rooting so hard for her to do so.

On 7/18/2017 at 10:52 AM, stillshimpy said:

I'm hoping for the latter.  Frankly, I hope that Arya gets a chance to kill the living hell out of Cersei and doesn't do it because she realizes it won't fix anything but it's this show so pretty much no chance for that but I can hope.  

I would love this so much -- for Arya's sake. Her trajectory as a character -- a child who became a brutal and remorseless killer -- disturbs and saddens me so much. I'd love for her to show some sense of mercy not for her victims (Cersei certainly deserves none) but for herself. Besides, i am 10000% convinced, as always, that Jaime is and must be the one to kill Cersei. And I will really enjoy that moment in the worst possible way. Although my fear is that Brienne will then be forced in some way to take action against him (tripling the tragedy of the moment). I steadfastly believe a few things:

• Jaime must kill Cersei.
• Brienne must kill Jaime.
• The Hound must kill the Mountain.
• Arya must inadvertently assassinate someone she loves

On 7/18/2017 at 11:09 AM, Tikichick said:

Not much was said about Grey Wind overall, and Lady was essentially a non starter.

Lady was show (and described) as being the sweetest, gentlest of the direwolf pups, and as being the one who was most biddable. Ned thinks this right before he kills her.

On 7/18/2017 at 11:49 AM, stillshimpy said:

However, what I did enjoy about the scene was that it was such a clear illustration of what the Stark mindset is.  It's either/or ...it can't be this AND that.  

That's a brilliant encapsulation -- it's true, every Stark is black or white. And each seems incredibly strong but not bendable. They break.

On 7/18/2017 at 2:37 PM, FnkyChkn34 said:

I agree with the last part.  I think Sansa is salty because (for all she knows) Robb, Bran, and Rickon are dead, yet her bastard brother is running *her* castle.

I absolutely don't think Sansa is peevish because Jon has somehow survived the total massacre of the rest of her family. If anything, I think she has an increased sense of connection to him as her brother, her true brother (despite all her past snobbery to him as a child).

On 7/18/2017 at 3:21 PM, KaleyFirefly said:

I long ago decided (after reading the first 4 books), that at this point I only want to watch the show. I might finish reading the books, but ONLY if -- and this is a big if -- GRRM actually completes the entire series. 

I'm officially on board as not caring whether GRRM ever finishes the books (and I don't think he will). I've always found them flawed, more competently written than beautiful, and the last one I thought was decently written was book 3, and I was dismayed on so many levels about where book 5 took characters I had loved and respected. For me, flaws and all (and aside from some serious missteps like the endless Ramsaybastardboner or Jaime's arc), the show is superior.

Edited July 23, 2017 by paramitch
spacing

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

Arya must inadvertently assassinate someone she loves

I think it may be more the Faceless men kill someone in her family for her deeds.

wow bed time .

[GrailKing]

12 minutes ago, doram said:

Cruel and vengeful?

Well, if the crime of murdering and mutilating 60+ already kidnapped, enslaved and abused children doesn't deserve cruel and vengeful punishment, then what does? Because I shudder to hear your opinion of what the threshold crime against humanity that will be be sufficient. 

As for the "innocent" nobles, this needs to be pointed out: none of the nobles were innocent. All the nobles profited from an institution of human trafficking. A few nobles being squeamish about the crucifixions does not excuse/pardon them from being part of a system that thrived on kidnapping, raping and child abuse. So allow me not to shed a tear about these "innocents" being crucified in the same way that was done to children.  

You're also completely overlooking that Dany herself comes to admit that she acted out of anger. The whole point of her staying on in Mereen was to learn and to grow and be better than just a black-and-white ruler. She's 16 years old. I hardly expect her to never make mistakes along the way. She had good intentions and she went about it the wrong way. She makes attempts to compromise with the Mereenese culture to form a lasting peace. An unbalanced person isn't capable of course-correction. 

BTW, none of this has anything to do with Dany's desire to claim the Throne being an indication of madness/insanity. Basically, people are concluding she's mad, then finding "evidence" of her madness, instead of the other way around. 

While I agree with you 90+ %; We have to admit only a person who doesn't think rational would walk into a fire thinking she hatch Dragons.

Yes?

[anamika]

7 hours ago, paramitch said:

Right. Unfortunately, you can't really tell an abused, terrified and traumatized girl that her reaction is inappropriate and she needs to straighten up and react differently. It doesn't work that way. Add to that that she's still seriously just a freaking kid. I have no doubt that Sansa will make mistakes. I just wish she wasn't judged so harshly for each and every moment, expression, and tone she manifests.

7 hours ago, paramitch said:

 I think Dany is seriously unbalanced because she has repeatedly shown a cruelty in her desire for vengeance that doesn't seem to be reliably predicated on circumstance, guilt or innocence.  (See also her crucifixion of 130+ nobles because of the ruling class's cruel crucifixions as she arrived -- despite the fact that she apparently did not bother to learn which nobles were actually guilty or responsible.) I know she's pretty and sweet (most of the time) but Dany can definitely be cruel and unpredictable and to me she is most definitely a Targaryen in action and narrow viewpoint.

Right, so Sansa wants to strip two innocent children of their homes and punish them for the crimes of their father. But we should not judge her harshly because she is still a kid and traumatized. But a 13-14 year old Dany, who was sold and brutally raped and saw first hand the effects of slavery,  is "seriously unbalanced because she has repeatedly shown a cruelty in her desire for vengeance that doesn't seem to be reliably predicated on circumstance, guilt or innocence" because she did to the slavers what they had done to their victims?

And there's also the fact that, as mentioned above, Dany is constantly doubting her actions and often feels guilt and remorse for some of her decisions, that she made in anger. She's also young, like Jon, Robb, Bran and Arya. She is also learning. They are all freaking kids and if we can make allowances for Sansa because of her age, we can do the same for the other characters who have been equally brutalized and traumatized by their experiences.

[Mabinogia]

15 minutes ago, anamika said:

They are all freaking kids

This is the saddest thing about this whole story. These are children, murderous, lost, orphaned children. That any of them can still function at all is a testament to how strong they are. And the thing is, being children, they all still have a chance to grow and learn from their mistakes. Now, someone like Cersei, it's too late for her. She is far past learning from her mistakes. She also now has pretty much nothing left to lose so she really has no reason to try to change.

I think Dany shows signs of wanting to be a good leader. Sure she is set on "Must be Queen!" but at least, unlike Cersei, he actually wants to be a GOOD queen. Jon has grown into a leader, albeit still a reluctant one. But he is trying. Sansa has had the blinders yanked off her eyes and she is doing the best she can. She was the most sheltered of the Stark children, IMO, because she was a girl, and her job was to marry well. She was taught non-survival skills. Arya, being the second girl, didn't have quite as much of the social pressure put on her and was able to learn to fight. I think she is not quite at the point where she is ready to grow in a positive way. I think she will have to kill someone innocent or someone she loves before she realizes that her path of vengeance is hurting her more than her enemies, but I do think she will get there. She is the youngest of what I consider the 4 main kids. Sadly, I often overlook Bran. He's just kind of there for me, not really doing much. His experiences, though terrible, seem so separate. Odd, since he's had direct contact with the White Walkers and all. I feel like his personality hasn't gone as dark as say Arya or Sansa. And he hasn't been hell bend on taking power like Dany or having power thrust on him like Jon. It will be interesting to see how he is now that he's back with some of the main characters and in the main action again.

Honestly, as much as I can look at some of what they've done and call them idiots, or crazy, my heart breaks for these kids. IDK how anyone survives to adulthood in that place.

[AuntieMame]

On 7/18/2017 at 2:24 PM, Blonde Gator said:

Oh my!  I'm old, LOL, never heard of him.  But thank you, I looked up "Shape of You" on YouTube, almost 1.8 BILLION views!  Guess I need to get out more.

Don't feel bad. Seems I'm old too. I had no clue who the guy was and just thought: "Nice voice."

[stillshimpy]

On 7/21/2017 at 1:01 PM, OhOkayWhat said:

This is the first episode. We don't know yet the point or points of Sam traveling.

Whereas that is true, we do know that the show gave us the Bedpan Follies in a seemingly unending montage of liquid poop.  

I'm pretty sure that people can deem that bad writing without knowing what the point of that was because unless we're going to discover that dragons are repelled by liquid Maester Feces, that seems a safe one to deem pointless for anything other than making the audience squirm.   Admittedly, here's hoping it was pointless because if it really does come down to "The answer to all was contained in that Shit Shower"  then the series finale might be pretty freaking unpleasant. 

Although we learned the invaluable lesson of the importance of slow digesting carbs, I guess.  

I'm with @Dev F on this one, whether or not it is a character note or not is beside the point in the "That was  a lot of shit to go through for the entire point to be something they could have included in the darned previously to remind the audience."  

Edited July 23, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Francie]

One final comment in this topic regarding Arya impersonating Walder Frey. I watched a youtube commentary on the episode, and they noted that "Walder's" hands each had bandages on them, around the wrists. 
They assumed this meant that Arya had scalped .. filleted? ... what's the right term? ... his hands as well as his face. 
 

[paramitch]

7 hours ago, doram said:

Well, if the crime of murdering and mutilating 60+ already kidnapped, enslaved and abused children doesn't deserve cruel and vengeful punishment, then what does? Because I shudder to hear your opinion of what the threshold crime against humanity that will be be sufficient. 

Sorry, but I don't think the answer to cruel murder and mutilation should be "Hey! Let's do MORE cruel murder and mutilation!" in response. 

To me, vengeance is not justice. Did the slavers/perpetrators deserve to be judged and sentenced for what they did? Of course they did. But that's not what Dany actually did. She simply grabbed up 133 nobles in a rage (evidently at random and evidently including a fair number of completely innocent people) and strung them up in exactly the same fashion, and instantly making herself no better than any of them.

Also, FWIW, the showrunners also have openly and repeatedly commented on the fact that yes, Dany exhibits consistent signs of the Targaryen ruthlessness, and it is deliberate.

6 hours ago, anamika said:

Right, so Sansa wants to strip two innocent children of their homes and punish them for the crimes of their father. But we should not judge her harshly because she is still a kid and traumatized.

My empathy for Sansa doesn't mean I support her decisions. I think her point of view was a mistake here, and said so. I simply said that I find her naivete and paranoia understandable given what she has so recently suffered.

Although it's interesting that you bring up Dany, because Dany has been brutal and merciless on many, many occasions directly because of her own trauma and suffering.  

I'm not saying I don't like Dany, by the way. I like her and care about her. I'm just saying that I think the stark difference (hee) in how Dany and Sansa are judged for their mistakes and misjudgments in reaction to pretty similar traumas is worth pointing out.

6 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

This is the saddest thing about this whole story. These are children, murderous, lost, orphaned children. That any of them can still function at all is a testament to how strong they are. And the thing is, being children, they all still have a chance to grow and learn from their mistakes. Now, someone like Cersei, it's too late for her. She is far past learning from her mistakes. She also now has pretty much nothing left to lose so she really has no reason to try to change.

I think Dany shows signs of wanting to be a good leader. Sure she is set on "Must be Queen!" but at least, unlike Cersei, he actually wants to be a GOOD queen. Jon has grown into a leader, albeit still a reluctant one. But he is trying. Sansa has had the blinders yanked off her eyes and she is doing the best she can. She was the most sheltered of the Stark children, IMO, because she was a girl, and her job was to marry well. She was taught non-survival skills. Arya, being the second girl, didn't have quite as much of the social pressure put on her and was able to learn to fight. I think she is not quite at the point where she is ready to grow in a positive way. I think she will have to kill someone innocent or someone she loves before she realizes that her path of vengeance is hurting her more than her enemies, but I do think she will get there. She is the youngest of what I consider the 4 main kids. Sadly, I often overlook Bran. He's just kind of there for me, not really doing much. His experiences, though terrible, seem so separate. Odd, since he's had direct contact with the White Walkers and all. I feel like his personality hasn't gone as dark as say Arya or Sansa. And he hasn't been hell bend on taking power like Dany or having power thrust on him like Jon. It will be interesting to see how he is now that he's back with some of the main characters and in the main action again.

Honestly, as much as I can look at some of what they've done and call them idiots, or crazy, my heart breaks for these kids. IDK how anyone survives to adulthood in that place.

Lovely and eloquent post. And that's a beautiful encapsulation of what makes so many of these characters' journeys so sad, especially with the Stark children. I agree with you on Arya, too -- I think there's going to have to be a really dark moment where her thirst for vengeance will inevitably impact someone she loves (or, at the very least, a "good" character).

It's funny though -- I love Bran's story and his parts of the books were always the ones I looked forward to, and he's easily the one most fans find least engaging. I can't wait to see what happens with Bran, and the moment he wargs into one of Dany's dragons I'll be absolutely thrilled.

38 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I'm with @Dev F on this one, whether or not it is a character note or not is beside the point in the "That was  a lot of shit to go through for the entire point to be something they could have included in the darned previously to remind the audience."  

Yeah, I was irritated with that too because it was a little bit lazy and self-indulgent, I felt, like "Let's see how much we can gross you out here!" I mean, I get that it almost becomes funny by the end of the montage, but it's just utterly gross, and it doesn't tell us very much or advance Sam's story -- what we get out of the scene, to me, isn't worth it. I will absolutely be skipping that entire section if I ever rewatch this episode.

31 minutes ago, Francie said:

One final comment in this topic regarding Arya impersonating Walder Frey. I watched a youtube commentary on the episode, and they noted that "Walder's" hands each had bandages on them, around the wrists. 
They assumed this meant that Arya had scalped .. filleted? ... what's the right term? ... his hands as well as his face. 
 

I can't see Arya removing and "wearing" Walder's hands -- I just don't see how that's possible. My answer to the faces mystery remains "Because Magic," which I still think is the easiest way to cover how they are removable, mobile/expressive, and change the body as well.

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

I'm just saying that I think the stark difference (hee) in how Dany and Sansa are judged for their mistakes and misjudgments in reaction to pretty similar traumas is worth pointing out.

Sansa gets more excuses (isn't the current discussion that she was right to condemn the Karstark and Umber children?) than blame for her actions. So this perception that Dany is somehow excused while Sansa is condemned is skewed. 

I had to go back thread, and you were actually the one who turned this into a Sansa vs Dany debate. The discussion was about the  misogyny that female characters (Arya and Dany) face when their actions are analysed and condemned, as opposed to men. 

This is the thread that you were responding to:

 

17 hours ago, paramitch said:

On 7/18/2017 at 10:22 AM, doram said:

On 7/18/2017 at 1:25 AM, FemmyV said:

Even with all the Frey scalps under her belt, Arya has still probably been responsible for less deaths - directly or indirectly - than any male military character on the show. Jamie has probably killed more with his own sword, he has definitely ordered more kills than Arya completed. Rob is responsible for at least 2,000 deaths among Stark soldiers, as a sacrifice. Ned swung the axe himself a few times. Most of these impersonal, in times of war. But Arya is out of her mind? No, I really don't see it that way.

FWIW, Dany is spoken of in similar fashion. It's incredibly sexist.

Thank you for saying this! Dany's desire to (re)claim the Iron Throne is constantly written as her being entitled and showing signs of madness, in a way that no other of the contenders is described. 

I disagree. I think Dany is seriously unbalanced because she has repeatedly shown a cruelty in her desire for vengeance that doesn't seem to be reliably predicated on circumstance, guilt or innocence.  (See also her crucifixion of 130+ nobles because of the ruling class's cruel crucifixions as she arrived -- despite the fact that she apparently did not bother to learn which nobles were actually guilty or responsible.) I know she's pretty and sweet (most of the time) but Dany can definitely be cruel and unpredictable and to me she is most definitely a Targaryen in action and narrow viewpoint.

The other commenters were pointing out the irony of you making a post excusing Sansa of her actions because of her trauma, while at the same time making a statement like that, condemning Dany, turning this into a Sansa vs Dany thing. 

We're always going to have our favourite characters and who will be more sympathetic to over the others. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous. 

40 minutes ago, doram said:

Arya destroyed the House of Frey without a trial. 

Jon beheaded Slynt even as he begged for his life. He executed a 10-year-old boy, who at the very least had extenuating circucumstances due to his age, and his history. This, by the way, was his last act as Lord Commander - so he wasn't doing it to keep law and order. He was doing it for vengeance. 

Sansa had Bolton get eaten by his dogs, watched it and revelled in it. I'm sure there were more humane ways to kill him. But I guess when it comes to Sansa, there's a good excuse or exception for perpetuating "murder and mutilation"?

The point is that every one of our heroes has been ruthless to their enemies.

So what is specifically ruthless about Dany that distinguishes her from this lot?

I guess the answer is: "my personal dislike for her". 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Hecate7]

On 7/18/2017 at 0:16 PM, Francie said:

The logistics part are a bit troubling, but much easier to hand wave.  Arya kills the Freys remotely on the property, chops them up, and goes into the kitchen late at night and cooks them.  That’s only a little difficult to believe compared to Arya walking around as Walder Frey for nearly two weeks.

The fact that Arya can take on the servant girl’s appearance wasn't troubling to me, because she’s a young girl, with the same body type (or close enough for me to believe that the show runners want us to believe that they’re the same body type).  I can assume that’s still Arya’s hands. Arya's body. She’s only wearing a different face and either a wig or that person’s hair.  It’s still Arya’s voice, but she’s altering it a bit.  

Presumably, this servant girl is not impersonating someone whom the people around her know well. She’s a new servant girl who showed up that day or a day or so beforehand – enough time to bake the Frey pies. That's how I can easily rationalize it. That's how I've been shown that the faceless assassins operate. They take on a persona, and then they arrive and weave themselves into the household. Again, she's not masquerading herself as the head of the family.  

Chap. 64 of ADWD is where Arya changes faces in the books. There’s some magic involved in the sealing of the face.  Arya had to drink a milky potion as well (so, did she bring that with her from Bravos? Get the recipe before she left? Just needed to take it once and done?) Arya even feels the remnants of the presence of the person who had that face. But that’s the extent of the magic. But it changed her face, and her face alone.

Arya asks how her face looks different, and they tell her. They don’t tell her that anything else has changed.  She’s still a young girl – an ugly girl. Once she commits the crime, she returns and Jaqen tells her that he’ll give her a new face for the next day – a prettier one. Again, a prettier face.

When I read that passage the first time, I absolutely had the understanding that Arya’s voice didn’t magically change into this dead person’s whom she had never met. Her hands didn’t change. Her height didn’t change. Her gender didn’t change. Her face changed. Hence, the faceless men.  I don’t change my reading on a second read through yesterday.

That’s why this whole take on Walder Frey’s persona and fool his family crap doesn’t sit well with me.  It takes us away from the concept of faceless people and turns them into clones and body snatchers.  No thank you.

Just borrowing someone's face would be  of no use whatesoever. What would be the point?

[paramitch]

5 hours ago, doram said:

And once again the irony of your own statements escape you. You find Sansa's naiveté and paranoia "understandable" considering her trauma but you don't  mention Dany's own naiveté and anger understandable considering hers.

When expressing empathy several times now regarding rape, violence, and trauma as it applied to both Dany and Sansa, how did you not understand that my empathy of course extends to Dany? How could it not? I didn't belabor Dany's backstory because I was making a point about reaction to Sansa in this specific episode.

Quote

We're always going to have our favourite characters and who will be more sympathetic to over the others. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous. 

Ironically, FWIW, Sansa is not actually one of my favorite characters. 

Anyway. Thanks for the debate, all. We can agree to disagree -- I'm out. See you next episode!

[ShellsandCheese]

I liked Jamie telling Cersei, it’s three kingdoms at best and he’s right. I would love it if everyone just said fuck it, shrugged their soldiers, and went about their business ignoring Cersei and basically having de facto independence. The Lannisters cannot fight everyone at once. 

[John Potts]

I know he does it in the books as well, but WTF did Euron pull that fleet from!?

"No need to seize the last word, Lord Baelish. I'll assume it was something clever." Sansa. A good mic-drop moment, but she just can't resist getting the last word herself.

Dragonstone was empty!? Even if Stannis hadn't left a garrison there, you'd think Cersei would have grabbed it if it was deserted. Even if Danny would be able to overwhelm any force left there, it's worth hanging onto an advance outpost to act as a lookout (and wear down your enemies force).

Bit of a shame they spoiled their own opening by having Walder Frey alive. But I don't think it would be that hard to arrange the Feast. Walder doesn't seem like the type to chat with his servants, she just needs to hang the Westerosi equivilent of a "Do Not Disturb (I'm banging some chick young enough to be my great grand daughter)" sign on "his" room as Walder and Arya would be left completely alone. She can always leave as the girl he's supposedly screwing.

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 3:06 AM, Scarlett45 said:

did anyone else think a smart thing for Jon to do would've been to bethroth eligible heirs from the loyal houses to Karstark and Umber? That way the family keeps ancestral seats but loyal bannermen are rewarded.

Either that, or appoint a loyal Steward/Warden to run things until they come of age. Which is what I would hope Sansa would suggest after the meeting.

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 4:18 AM, bunnyblue said:

So I guess as King he's taken charge of the Night's Watch again if he can order Wildlings to man Eastwatch.

Not necessarily. As Wardens of the North they have a responsibility to protect the North from attack (mostly from the Wildlings!) so its reasonable for him to act if the Night Watch can't (which given it's down to about 100 men, they clearly can't).

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 5:18 AM, PTVjones said:

There's only been one person who's been killed because he didn't play the politics correctly, and that's Jon.

I think Sansa would say that politics is what killed her father.

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 5:25 AM, anamika said:

And as she says in this episode, she knows exactly what he wants - to get rid of Jon and put Sansa in charge. Why is she not warning Jon about LF?!

I took that to mean he wants her (though the two aren't exclusive).