S07.E01: Dragonstone

[Constantinople]

22 minutes ago, anamika said:

Again, does Sansa know of any successful attempt by Cersei to assassinate people not in KL? What is she basing her advice on?

She's basing her advice on not taking people for granted, which is something Jon still does to this day even after it got him killed.

Jon should reflect on the fact that Ned and Robb aren't the only Starks whose stupidity got them killed, but apparently he's too arrogant to do that.

[Gwen-Stacys]

1 minute ago, screamin said:

So basically your position is, "Cersei has successfully assassinated hundreds of people - many of them capable highborn with loyal armies at their disposal, and  because she hasn't yet done it outside of KL, Jon should totally feel safe even though I can't name any unsurmountable obstacle to her sending someone outside King's Landing."

Cersei's assassination of those high borns are also the reason she's surrounded by enemies with only Euron (someone who admits to turning on people when the timing suits him) as an ally. It's why the Tyrell's are backing Dani and it's also why her subjects aren't all that fond of her either. If it weren't for the Night King, Dani could probably take King's landing the same way she did Slaver's bay, by getting the disgruntled population to revolt.

[ChromaKelly]

2 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think that Jon has to be smarter than Ned and Robb is a fair point and that negates the idea that Sansa is lacking in not having those lessons..

On the other hand, I think having Sansa say she learned from Cersei in an episode where Cessei has is surrounded by enemies on all fronts with no allies points to Jon being right in this instance and Sansa wrong.

I tend to think Robb and Ned would have done what Sansa suggested without her having to prompt it.  I think that not blaming the children for the crimes of the parents is a Jon thing stemming from being a bastard.

Robb beheaded a Karstark and look where it got him. I get where Sansa was coming from, but Jon is in the right here. They don't need to piss off those houses even more. They need them back and loyal.

[Gwen-Stacys]

2 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

She's basing her advice on not taking people for granted, which is something Jon still does to this day even after it got him killed.

Jon should reflect on the fact that Ned and Robb aren't the only Starks whose stupidity got them killed, but apparently he's too arrogant to do that.

But Jon's decision in this episode was the exact opposite of what Robb did when he chose to execute Lord Karstark, thereby losing the support of the Karstark army. Robb's decision was way more inline with Sansa's  suggestion than Jon's actual decision. Like a previous poster pointed out, Jon pulled a Tywin (strike down your enemies when they come against you, but help them back up when they choose to bend the knee). That's where my problem with that particular though process (that Jon is following in the footsteps of Robb and Ned) comes from. It's not true in the slightest.  

[screamin]

2 minutes ago, Gwen-Stacys said:

I think that's giving Cersei way too much credit. That, and the Lannisters are broke. So who.s she paying what now? 

For a starving lowborn, food enough for the survival of a family through the winter is enough. There's also the added incentive of a threat to an imprisoned son or daughter. Both of these incentives are still affordable to the Lannisters.

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The entire theme of this story (a song of ice and fire, and why all the people representing fire are slowly making their way to the icy north) is that all this squabbling over thrones and past slights are pointless and stupid. It's also why they had that random scene with the army of the dead (with a few giant-weights in tow) smack dab in the middle of the episode. 

 

I totally agree that all this jockeying for power among the living while the dead approach is a bunch of aristocratic idiots square-dancing on the edge of the abyss. But the whole Game of Thrones has been about that, and the squabbling aristocrats won't tear their eyes away from the toys they're fighting over till they see the dead for themselves. Unfortunately, that won't happen to the south for awhile, and aristocratic idiots accustomed to the use of armies and assassins can still be dangerous, despite the stupidities of their motives.

[anamika]

Just now, screamin said:

So basically your position is, "Cersei has successfully assassinated hundreds of people - many of them capable highborn with loyal armies at their disposal, and  because she hasn't yet done it outside of KL, Jon should totally feel safe even though I can't name any unsurmountable obstacle to her sending someone outside King's Landing."

When has Cersei successfully assassinated hundreds of people in KL? Does she have a secret stash of ninja assassins hidden away somewhere? She used wildfire to slaughter people trapped in the Sept of Baelor using Qyburn's help.

Unless Cersei was successful in assassinating a leader in another Kingdom, I don't think we have to worry about her. I mean, did she send assassins after Ellaria for killing her daughter?

If Sansa knows of any specific threat from Cersei in the form of secret assassins then she should specifically warn Jon about it. Until then the WW are the urgent, immediate threat and Jon is focusing on that instead of sitting and worrying about the ninja assassins that Cersei is going to send.

Sansa should probably focus on the closer threat that's in WF -  LF is more dangerous than Cersei and Sansa knows his intentions with regard to Jon.

[Shimmergloom]

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I don't know what she's referring to re: Ned.

He trusted Littlefinger.  It has to be public knowledge that Littlefinger betrayed Ned in season 1.

[egnever]

1 hour ago, larapu2000 said:

She doesn't need an army.  She needs one person to murder Sansa and Jon.

By this same logic, Jon probably doesn't even need to do anything, because Cersei is surrounded by like two million of her enemies that all want a piece.

Jon's concern is obvious. He's concerned about the Night King. He's concerned of what happens if the wall comes down. Sure, there's always the possibility that Cersei could send the odd assassin his way. But in general, the threat of the Night King is orders of magnitude worse than the threat of Cersei, and I don't think he's wrong in perceiving it that way. He understands how dire their situation in, and how slim the odds of surviving are. They need every man, woman, and child united to defend the lives of their people to stand a chance.

Sansa represents the squabbling of the Southern houses that people have, for years, said is ultimately petty and meaningless against the threat that the White Walkers pose. Jon finally recognizes this and people are criticizing him for not listening enough to someone who still wants to divide their already meager defenders into us vs them.

[Gwen-Stacys]

Just now, screamin said:

For a starving lowborn, food enough for the survival of a family through the winter is enough. There's also the added incentive of a threat to an imprisoned son or daughter. Both of these incentives are still affordable to the Lannisters.

But she doesn't have any food to give. That was Jamie's entire argument against trudging north in the first place. The Tyrell's control most of the food in the south and they're firmly team Targ at the moment (because of Cersei's "kill my enemies" stance). Not to mention that to do so, they'd have to go through the power vacuum that Arya created in the Neck/Riverland Area. Like yes, Cersei has her eyes on Sansa in the north, but her getting to her any time soon is just not realistic. Especially now that Dani's officially landed in Westoros and is already reaching out to other families.

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Unfortunately, that won't happen to the south for awhile, and aristocratic idiots accustomed to the use of armies and assassins can still be dangerous, despite the stupidities of their motives.

Cersei has never used an assassin tho. Not one she didn't pay with copious amounts of sex, any way (and even THAT came back to bite her in the ass re: that person confessing all to The High Sparrow)

[AuntieMame]

5 minutes ago, screamin said:

Well, YOU'RE not standing against Cersei. But IMO, to someone who just got a message saying, "Come to KL to bend the knee to the woman who killed your dad after HE bent the knee, or be considered a traitor," I'd say it would be a lot clearer to Sansa and Jon that they WERE standing against Cersei (since they obviously weren't going to rush off to KL at her behest). For such people standing against Cersei, I'd say from 'Cersei murdered everyone who stands against her' to "She's going to try to murder us too." is not SUCH an enormous stretch that it requires a diagram and arrows. Just IMO.

So basically your position is, "Cersei has successfully assassinated hundreds of people - many of them capable highborn with loyal armies at their disposal, and  because she hasn't yet done it outside of KL, Jon should totally feel safe even though I can't name any unsurmountable obstacle to her sending someone outside King's Landing."

I agree, Cersei is dangerous because she is such a determined loose cannon. No, she isn't a competent leader or even a competent schemer but she is a danger because of the combination of her ambition, her entitlement and her monumental overestimation of her abilities. These things in combination have gotten hundreds killed and helped bring all of Westeros to its sorry state of being completely unprepared for Winter or the wWinter King. Cersei is a danger, even if her armies can't get north at the moment and it doesn't take a Kissinger level power player to make the next step deductive leap. 

That said, the Winter King is the bigger threat. Sansa and Jon need to work on the King and counselors thing, not just with each other but need to put a council in place. Davos is cannier than he gives himself credit for. What about the Maester who was advising Lyanna Mormon? More heads are better and the North needs to be preparing on all fronts. 

As for this current kerfuffle between Jon and Sansa, both had a point. They needed to discuss which was better in light of current context and consequences and if there was a compromise. The ethics needed to be considered too. It wasn't an either/or situation. 

[Dewey Decimate]

I've been in Grenn mourning for some time, but if those two swarthy, strapping young crows who helped drag Bran through the wall stick around, they may nearly substitute. Yum. And double yum.

Not gonna jump into the Frey (*rimshot*) of the Jon-Sansa power dynamics, but damn - she totally pwned Littlefinger, and in a duel of words, his very home field. "I'm sure it was something witty" - her best line ever.

Davos looked a mite bit melancholy at seeing another lil' female spitfire speak her mind. (RIP Shireen)

And this is surely just me reading WAY too much into a couple lines, but I'd like to dream that Sandor's exchange with Thoros was a very veiled dig at a certain world leader known for his questionable coiffure. His calling Thoros a bald c--- and scoffing at his trying to hide it with a damned topknot cracked me up. The Hound in 2020!

[anamika]

So I am still confused about the Vale. Royce seems to be there just for disagreeing with Jon about everything - he seems to be doing it next week as well.   Sansa seemed to hint that the Vale army was LF's men and that's why they need LF. So the Vale does LF's bidding? So the Vale is not under the KITN?

[egnever]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

In the show, it was. In the books, it seemed more clearly Cersei, IMO. Either way, it remains part of the Lannister repertoire.

Big difference here. Those were predominantly bastards in and around the orbit of King's Landing, where she could waltz up with armed guards and arrest them. Her influence is clearly pretty limited, because Mya Stone is still chilling in the Vale, Edric Storm is hanging about in Lys, and Gendry is still making shoes at the Crossroads (or still paddling in the HBO show).

This is vastly different than meandering far, far into hostile territory, into a hugely protected fortress, and killing the most important man in the North.

[MadMouse]

If Sansa really wanted to give Jon good advice, she would have proposed a double betrothal. From their POV they're the last two Starks around and she should be smart enough to realize that her family has tendency to die off in rapid succession. Plus a marriage alliance would cement the loyalty of those two houses.  Jon is easy on eyes and a genuinely good person so for Alys it would be a win. And for the Umber kid, in six or seven years he'd be married to a twenty something Sansa who would wrap him around her finger.

[Happy Harpy]

So happy to have this show back, and it was worth the wait.

There was no way they could top last season's finale so I'm glad that they didn't try to escalate in Big Moments and sprinkled a couple of shocking ones (the opening with Arya and Jorah) over character development and political set-up. I enjoyed almost everything.

I loved Jon. Loved him, can't believe how much. He was honorable like Ned and Robb, but unlike them (Robb in particular) allied honor with simple good sense ("we need everyone") and political astuteness.  I bet that Karstarks and Umbers will be as devoted to him as the Mormonts are now. His direct and reasonable attitude when dealing with Sansa afterwards gave him more points in my book. His encouraging smile at those two frightened kids facing a hostile court endeared him to me.

And this moment reminded me of a few seasons back when another frightened girl, a redhead like Alys Karstark, faced a hostile court and was punished for the sins of her father, and brother. It was particularly off-putting that Sansa was ready to inflict the same unfair treatment on others.  See, that's why although I can feel for her when terrible things happen to her, I can't truly love her.  Objecting a first time as a counsel was OK, insisting was indeed undermining Jon's authority. I could see her point about Cersei, but I did feel that she and Jon embodied the "Iron throne  vs Ice zombies invasion"narrative, and she represented the King Landing's side of it . On the other hand,  I couldn't believe my ears when she insinuated that Jon was like Joffrey. Which she didn't think he was, so how could she even liken them at any level whatsoever? Whether it was a piss poor attempt at manipulation or a silly reaction of frustration because Jon wasn't budging,  excuse me but here I have to go back to my S1 motto with her: Shut up, Sansa.

The episode offered an interesting parallel with the Stark sisters. Many theories claimed that Arya would lose herself in her dark side, whereas imo this episode showed that she didn't. She spared the Frey women (reminiscent of Dany at Astapor) and the scene with the soldiers showed that she was still able to see human beings and recognize decent ones even when they wear Lannister uniforms; whereas it was implied that Sansa emulates Cersei a little bit much.

Loved Brienne's reaction when Jon announced that women would train, too. And I love how she visibly wants to slice Littlecreeper whenever he's in her vicinity. Not on the Brienne and Tormund train, but their scenes are funny.

There should be Lyanna Mormont Facts. I really need her to meet Arya and her unique set of skills. Quote galore will probably ensue, because between "Winter has come for House Frey" and "I won't knit by the fire", those two were on a roll in this episode.

2 hours ago, benteen said:

liked both Brienne and Davos's looks of pride.

I loved those moments. It was a bit heartbreaking, too, because Davos certainly sees a bit of Shireen in Lyanna Mormont.

The Hound and BwB scenes were excellent. Some moments were very poignant, whereas the "top knot" had me laugh out loud.

I loved the Jaime and Cersei scenes. Of course, I wish he kicked her to the curb two seasons ago so I hope it's for this one.

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

Is anyone else hung up on how much Euron looks like Evil Pacey?

The 80s like look with black jacket, the lurch, the jolly attitude, the speechifying...I saw a lot of Negan there, and it isn't a good thing in my book. So I'm still not sold on Euron, although the "two hands" was an excellent shade throwing. NCW's facial expressions were priceless.

I really loved the last scenes. Dany is finally in Westeros, and considering how long people have been waiting for this moment,  music replacing dialogues made it more solemn and emotional for me.

[anamika]

Also did Sansa seriously compare Jon to Joffrey for not punishing the children for the sins of their fathers?

Like, what the hell?

[egnever]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Then Sansa should say ' Hey Jon, Cersei is going to send assassins after you' to counter Jon's ' Cersei's southern army cannot come North'. Her vague bullshit masquerading as advice is getting tiresome to hear. 

Don't be like Ned and Robb? In an episode where he was not like Ned or Robb? What is she trying to say?

Sansa is not offering anything useful at this point. That's the problem with her character. All she does is disagree with everything Jon does and not offer anything constructive in return.

As for disagreements in the room - we were given the reactions of three important characters - Davos, Brienne and LF as Sansa and Jon argued and the houses variously agreed and disagreed. Davos and Brienne were like uh oh. LF was starting to get excited.

I like that Jon stood up against her bullshit this season and called her out.

ITA.

Sansa needs to start actually contributing something substantial if she wants to be valued. She compared Jon with Joffrey here, but she's the one acting more like him. She wants to be listened based on who she is, not what she has to contribute, which is classic Joffrey ("I am the king!").

She has given Jon no reason to trust her. She offers vague threats about what will happen but is never concrete about it, so it becomes as difficult to prepare for as an ominous horoscope: "you will suffer grave misfortune sometime between now and some years from now." And in any real world scenario, her withholding vital strategic information such as the existence and arrival of Littlefinger's army would likely get her court martialed or put on trial for treason. That decision led to an almost complete annihilation of the North's cavalry forces, which is huge because there's no easy way to replace them. It takes years and years to train up good cavalry. And many of those deaths would likely have been preventable.

As for communicating, they both need to communicate better. But Sansa is supposed to be court-savvy, and undermining Jon Snow is the least court-savvy thing she could have done because it weakens both of their positions.

As for what she should have done? Anything else? I'm presuming by the presence of all those people that Jon Snow didn't drop the moot as a surprise. She could have approached him before the meeting and asked what was on his mind or what he wanted to do. She could have expressed her objections there. She could have waited until after and reprimanded him more fiercely. She could have done literally anything other than openly dissent right then and there in a way that hurts both of their standing.

I don't even blame Sansa for this as much as I blame the writers for thrusting this kind of melodrama on us. It's plot-induced stupidity from two people who probably interact and talk a lot more than is shown on camera.

[Dev F]

15 minutes ago, anamika said:

So I am still confused about the Vale. Royce seems to be there just for disagreeing with Jon about everything - he seems to be doing it next week as well.

Royce wasn't the one disagreeing with Jon this week, though. That was Lord Glover. Royce just kinda hung out in the background of the meeting looking vaguely concerned.

[TwistedandBored]

In 2013, The Lannisters used House Frey to kill most of the Starks and send a message to everyone. "The Lannisters send their regards."

In 2017, Arya Stark was like we got the message and we raised you by murdering the entire House Frey males. "The North Remembers. Winter came for House Frey." 

 

Seriously, the episode was great. I mean this episode had The Night King,  Zombie Giant, Mystique Arya, Jon/North houses, Euron who was funny af, and Danny coming to home to Dragonstone. Shall we begin indeed. 

[screamin]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

The Red Wedding was planned by Tywin Lannister. Are you seriously saying  Cersei is as smart as Tywin Lannister? And that Sansa thinks this? If she does, then she is both paranoid and stupid.

 

Joffrey managed to send an assassin a long distance into Winterfell against Bran - a murder attempt that very nearly succeeded. Are you seriously saying that Joffrey is as smart as Tywin Lannister, because only a person as smart as Tywin could possibly send an assassin a long distance? To me, it's more credible to think that sending an assassin a distance does not require a genius, and that if Cersei has thus far not done so, it's more because she's been more preoccupied with threats close to herself up till now than that sending an assassin a long distance is a feat only attainable to geniuses like Joffrey.

[anamika]

8 minutes ago, screamin said:

Joffrey managed to send an assassin a long distance into Winterfell against Bran - a murder attempt that very nearly succeeded. Are you seriously saying that Joffrey is as smart as Tywin Lannister, because only a person as smart as Tywin could possibly send an assassin a long distance? To me, it's more credible to think that sending an assassin a distance does not require a genius, and that if Cersei has thus far not done so, it's more because she's been more preoccupied with threats close to herself up till now than that sending an assassin a long distance is a feat only attainable to geniuses like Joffrey.

No, certainly not. Joffrey was an idiot - hence his assassination attempt on Bran.  But I thought we were talking about Cersei and her secret stash of ninja assassins that she sends around to assassinate leaders in other kingdoms that Sansa knows all about.

Oh, very well. I guess Jon better take Sansa's advice and stop worrying about WW and more about the secret assassins Cersei is sending his way.

Edited July 17, 2017 by anamika

[FemmyV]

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Realistically, Jon should run by any topics he’s planning to talk about at the big meeting with her in advance, if he wants them to be on the same page at the meeting itself.

Realistically, Jon is King in the North and isn't supposed to need to defend his decisions against Sansa's public disagreement. Period.  Sansa is lucky Jon is Jon, and that he didn't come at her like O-Ren Ishii and chop that smack-talk down for good.

But. Wasn't it interesting how Sansa said she learned from Cersei? Stop a minute and recall what Robert did when Cersei got in his shit in front of Ned? She'd have done a lot better to learn from Margaery.

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It's also a parallel from last season with Dany and the Greyjoys when she said children shouldn't suffer from their fathers mistakes. 

Not only that, but it also was paralleled in this very show's opening scene, when Arya made sure the Frey women didn't drink. I didn't care for the scene with the Lannister soldiers because it was sooooo heavy-handed - since when has any Lannister soldier not been a sadistic asshole? But I reckon they were lightened up so that Arya could have her Ah-hah!! moment and learn to forgive them for fighting for Cersei. Funny contrast - she dressed like a boy for season 2, and was nearly tortured by Lannisters who would have raped her without blinking, if they knew what was under her knickers. But as a young woman, they were non-threatening? Ooookay.

Loved the dragons returning to Dragonstone, beau visage.

Wish Jorah and Sam could have had enough conversation to give that story more of a jump start than a spark. With only seven episodes, you'd think they'd have at least gotten some things in serious motion and not used everything but Frey Toast for setting up ...

Edited July 17, 2017 by FemmyV

[VCRTracking]

The Hound and I are in the same page when it comes to topknots/manbuns.

Both Jon and Sansa are frustrating Sansa publicly undermining and Jon privately being so dismissive. I could see both sides but as Jon said he's seen the Night King. Ever since "Hardhome" it's hard to see all the political intrigue that's been the center of the show as trivial compared the big threat coming from the North. The Hound looking into the fire and he Arch Maester saying the wall has stood for a thousand years will protect them pretty much guarantees it's going to come down this season.

1 hour ago, doram said:

It's amusing too that Sansa thinks Ned was a fool for trusting his airheaded daughter to be more loyal to him than the woman who had her direwolf murdered.

She ain't wrong about Robb though. We all want Sansa to get on the same page with Jon, because frankly, some people are never going to forget her taking Joffrey's side over Arya way back in season 1 and are willing to believe even after everything she's been through that she's going to sell Jon out.

 

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

The episode offered an interesting parallel with the Stark sisters. Many theories claimed that Arya would lose herself in her dark side, whereas imo this episode showed that she didn't. She spared the Frey women (reminiscent of Dany at Astapor) and the scene with the soldiers showed that she was still able to see human beings and recognize decent ones even when they wear Lannister uniforms; whereas it was implied that Sansa emulates Cersei a little bit much.

Arya's still single-minded in her obsession with revenge. At this point we've come so far with her that we prefer her continuing to cross names off her list instead of being reunited with her family at Winterfell.  I don't think she's going to be the one to kill Cersei so I do wonder what her story in King's Landing will be.

*ETA

Ed Sheeran did kind of take me out of it, I admit. I wonder did his beautiful tenor save those Lannister soldiers from Arya's wrath?

This is one of many similar jokes on Twitter after the episode but I agree:

Edited July 17, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Oscirus]

11 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

 

But. Wasn't it interesting how Sansa said she learned from Cersei? Stop a minute and recall what Robert did when Cersei got in his shit in front of Ned? She'd have done a lot better to learn from Margaery.

Not really, Margaery got owned by Cersei, mostly because she underestimated Cersei.  For all her faults, the one thing that Sansa doesn't do is underestimate people.

15 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Not only that, but it also was paralleled in this very show's opening scene, when Arya made sure the Frey women didn't drink

That would work if we assume that all the Freys there were adults during the red wedding. I'm pretty sure that there were some to young to participate in those atrocities and Arya didn't give a damn, it was all about killing off the Frey bloodline.

[FemmyV]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Not really, Margaery got owned by Cersei, mostly because she underestimated Cersei.  For all her faults, the one thing that Sansa doesn't do is underestimate people.

Margaery would have walked out of there alive, if not for the Sparrows. The point was, Marg had an excellent handle on how to be diplomatic with pretty much everyone (BUT Cersei).

Edited July 17, 2017 by FemmyV

[Nanrad]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

Because he's the one who doesn't want her to go against him in meetings, and he's the one who knows what they're going to talk about.

But, Jon doesn't have that assumption that she's going to go against him in meetings. Furthermore, he doesn't want ANYONE to go against him in meetings. This is totally on her.

3 hours ago, larapu2000 said:

Sassy Sansa is the best Sansa.  Jon is being a condescending dick to her.  Period.  It wasn't just her "undermining" him in front of others, it was him dismissing her very valid opinion and stance on the treacherous assholes that betrayed their families.  Ugh.  And then him not listening about Cersei.  Jon Snow, you fucking tool.

How was he being condescending to her? Telling her no repeatedly and explaining that they need to show mercy and preserve all of the people they can? And It IS undermining him because he is King and she is openly challenging him after he made a final decision. If this were Robert, Joffrey, Walden, etc, what do you think would've happened? Jon doesn't want to hold kids accountable for their parents actions and has reconsidered his firm rule stance considering it has gotten him dead before. 

3 hours ago, gbbarb said:

Which is precisely why he needs to talk to her prior to make sure they are a united front.  Jon is king the burden is on him.

Actually, in this case, the burden is ON her. Sansa is not Hand to the King. She has a seat at the table, but she needs to use her words at the appropriate place and time. Jon has a lot of his plate to assume that burden. If Sansa wants to give her two cents and be a united front, she needs to speak to him and ask him what his plans are. 

2 hours ago, Gwen-Stacys said:

This also goes back to a lesson than Dani had to learn the hard way. You can't go around killing people who are loyal to you (the Karstarks especially are reputed to have always been ride or die for house Stark) or else people stop being loyal to you. Deposing an entire family would be a Cersei move....and Cersei's not exactly someone you should take leadership advice from. All of her solutions are temporary at best and short-sighted at worse. 

Exactly. This decision would've made Jon come off terrible, especially because they need the people for the WW. Look where this revenge/punishment killings has gotten Cersei? And, as mentioned, Dany had to learn the hard way what a bad idea that is. Jon is a bigger picture type of person, which he had to learned to be after he was killed, and then came back from the dead. Unless Jon is being unfair and/or incompetent, the North will respected his word even though they begrudgingly fought for him. 

2 hours ago, Skeeter22 said:

Jon ignoring the discontent of his closest followers literally got him killed already. Last season, Sansa deferred to Jon in public, and she got nothing in return. Now that she tried a different approach, she still got nothing. If Jon wants Sansa's support, he's going to have to give her some concessions just like any of his other bannermen. 

Ehh...completely differen situations. 

Last season, Sansa gave vague advice and withheld the fact that she may have the extra men that Jon needed--you know, the thing that would've most likely change his battle plan? Defying him in public does her no favors and makes Jon look bad. If Sansa wants Jon to listen, she's going to have to start speaking in appropriate places and being specific. "Cersei is dangerous..." How? What can Jon do with vague advice? Sansa is shortsighted and Jon is bigger picture. 

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Jon's still stupid and he comes off as a bit sexist too

How? Saying we should show these houses mercy and that we need all the people we can get for the upcoming war? By not wanting to be defied, which goes for man or woman. Jon made a decision and Sansa tried to undermine him, regardless of her intentionality. He has welcomed her speaking her opinion, but told her to do it in private opposite to open defiance. Any ruler would feel the same. How do you think Cersei would react in Jon's shoes?

35 minutes ago, egnever said:

ITA.

Sansa needs to start actually contributing something substantial if she wants to be valued. She compared Jon with Joffrey here, but she's the one acting more like him. She wants to be listened based on who she is, not what she has to contribute, which is classic Joffrey ("I am the king!").

She has given Jon no reason to trust her. She offers vague threats about what will happen but is never concrete about it, so it becomes as difficult to prepare for as an ominous horoscope: "you will suffer grave misfortune sometime between now and some years from now." And in any real world scenario, her withholding vital strategic information such as the existence and arrival of Littlefinger's army would likely get her court martialed or put on trial for treason. That decision led to an almost complete annihilation of the North's cavalry forces, which is huge because there's no easy way to replace them. It takes years and years to train up good cavalry. And many of those deaths would likely have been preventable.

As for communicating, they both need to communicate better. But Sansa is supposed to be court-savvy, and undermining Jon Snow is the least court-savvy thing she could have done because it weakens both of their positions.

As for what she should have done? Anything else? I'm presuming by the presence of all those people that Jon Snow didn't drop the moot as a surprise. She could have approached him before the meeting and asked what was on his mind or what he wanted to do. She could have expressed her objections there. She could have waited until after and reprimanded him more fiercely. She could have done literally anything other than openly dissent right then and there in a way that hurts both of their standing.

I don't even blame Sansa for this as much as I blame the writers for thrusting this kind of melodrama on us. It's plot-induced stupidity from two people who probably interact and talk a lot more than is shown on camera.

All of this, but especially the bolded part. If Sansa wants to be heard, she needs to put herself in a position where her words are specific and that she isn't putting Jon on the defensive. Her problem is being vague as well the inappropriate places when she chooses to speak. I think Sansa does provide value for Job, BUT I think she's not fully thinking out her plans or what she wants to tell Jon--hell, even how to approach Jon as to her place and importance when it comes to advice/suggestions. She wants influence, but literally does the opposite of what will help her accomplish this. You become a player with influence when you have something concrete to give that can change something in your favor. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

32 minutes ago, screamin said:

Joffrey managed to send an assassin a long distance into Winterfell against Bran - a murder attempt that very nearly succeeded. Are you seriously saying that Joffrey is as smart as Tywin Lannister, because only a person as smart as Tywin could possibly send an assassin a long distance? To me, it's more credible to think that sending an assassin a distance does not require a genius, and that if Cersei has thus far not done so, it's more because she's been more preoccupied with threats close to herself up till now than that sending an assassin a long distance is a feat only attainable to geniuses like Joffrey.

The assassin wasn't, presumably, sent a long distance. He was presumably hired while Joffrey and the rest of the royals were in the North. It would be easier to hire an assassin back in the day when it was still summer people's guards were down. Also, it's easier to plot against a bedridden boy than a warrior who has a grown-ass direwolf, the loyalty of most of the North, his inherent training, and is on the move.

 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

So I am still confused about the Vale. Royce seems to be there just for disagreeing with Jon about everything - he seems to be doing it next week as well.   Sansa seemed to hint that the Vale army was LF's men and that's why they need LF. So the Vale does LF's bidding? So the Vale is not under the KITN?

LF is basically the regent of the Vale while Robin grows up. Royce is from the Vale and actually has the military background and the connection to the Vale that LF lacks. As far as we know, LF has never fought a war or anything beyond the duel where Ned's brother handed LF's ass to him. But because LF can manipulate Robin, and Royce and co. are sworn to obey Robin, LF can get the Knights of the Vale to do what he wants. Ser Royce isn't happy about that, but such is life.

The Vale is a separate kingdom, to the East, and not part of the North.

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Margaery would have walked out of there alive, if not for the Sparrows.

Probably not wildfire would've just killed her outside of the septon as opposed to the inside.  I was referring to the events that lead to her demise. I.e openly plotting against Cersei and even going so far as to mock her. 

[TwistedandBored]

Oh, I wanna say that one thing I have noticed in this and in many other episodes is that Danny never goes for the throne whenever she sees one. Like in season 2 during her vision, she didn't sit on the Iron throne even though she wanted to and in Meereen she focused on the slave masters before deciding to sit on the throne. In this episode. She didn't immediately sit in the throne. Instead, she went to the strategy room and thought of the war to come. I think that is neat character trait she has. 

[Czanne]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Also we got Jon saying how he learned from Ned and Sansa and Arya never got to do that because they were girls. The episode is making a point of saying that Jon knows better about certain things than her.

Maybe she can, oh I don't know, go and ask him? Hey Jon, what's on the table today? Oh you are planning on forgiving those children? I disagree!!

Again, why is the onus on Jon to go discuss with her?

Good cop, bad cop: Sansa took the second role, because the issue she raises is important, and those two heirs need to realize they have very little latitude to f'up. Recall, the first idea is destroy the castle and everything and one associated. That's disastrous. Both Stark proposals are more merciful, and by Sansa taking the bad cop, it allows Jon to sound both strong and stern, gaining the loyalty of two children. 

 

If Alys and Ned were older than Jon and Sansa, it wouldn't have worked, but since they're children, they're less likely to begrudge the mercy shown to them. 

[Cherpumple]

Ugh, all the joy I felt last season seeing the Jon/Sansa reunion has evaporated due to their bickering and Sansa's idiocy and caginess. That whole interaction seemed out of character for both of them, given their experiences, and I would have expected them to take the opposite viewpoints. Sansa has spent years being tortured and imprisoned by people who punished her for the crimes of her brother and father and then took over her ancestral home, and now she wants to inflict a similar (though less brutal) punishment on innocent children? And Jon was literally KILLED by people loyal to him after he pardoned and welcomed the wildlings south of the wall, and now his first instinct is to forgive and forget the treacherous acts of his bannermen, as if nothing happened? Neither of these positions make sense! I actually agree with the final plan, but I think it should have been arrived at differently. For the foreseeable future, I'm just going to ignore the Jon/Sansa dynamic. It makes no sense, and probably doesn't appear in the book at all, so I'll just toss it on the pile of other failed plot points invented by the showrunners.

 

Quote

55 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Not only that, but it also was paralleled in this very show's opening scene, when Arya made sure the Frey women didn't drink

That would work if we assume that all the Freys there were adults during the red wedding. I'm pretty sure that there were some to young to participate in those atrocities and Arya didn't give a damn, it was all about killing off the Frey bloodline.

I didn't think Arya spared that one woman (not all the women in the room) because she was innocent, but because Arya needed to have a surviving witness to spread the word about the vengeance that had been done to the Frey family. Yes, she may have picked someone for this task who likely wasn't involved in the Red Wedding (Walder's new wife?) but I felt it was more about getting her message out into the world about what she had done to them.

 

ETA: This episode reminded me why the Hound is my favorite character. He was hilarious to start, then got me choked up when he buried the farmer and his daughter, then gave me chills when he looked into the fire. Awesome!

Edited July 17, 2017 by Cherpumple

[Gertrude]

45 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Not really, Margaery got owned by Cersei, mostly because she underestimated Cersei.  For all her faults, the one thing that Sansa doesn't do is underestimate people.

I'm going to disagree here. She does nothing but underestimate people. She underestimated how much LF valued her since he was willing to give her to Ramsey. She badly read the Ramsey situation until the wedding night. There were multiple red flags and an escape button in the form of a candle before it got that far. You know what, I take it back. She overestimated the loyalty of the Northmen instead of underestimated it. I love book Sansa, but show Sansa is not book Sansa and show Sansa hasn't show a lot of growth. We've been told about it a lot and have it shoved down our throats, but not shown IMO. I think she's too inconsistently written to really know what she's about and what she's really thinking, sadly.

[Nanrad]

22 minutes ago, Czanne said:

Good cop, bad cop: Sansa took the second role, because the issue she raises is important, and those two heirs need to realize they have very little latitude to f'up. Recall, the first idea is destroy the castle and everything and one associated. That's disastrous. Both Stark proposals are more merciful, and by Sansa taking the bad cop, it allows Jon to sound both strong and stern, gaining the loyalty of two children. 

 

If Alys and Ned were older than Jon and Sansa, it wouldn't have worked, but since they're children, they're less likely to begrudge the mercy shown to them. 

Are you referring to narratively speaking because it doesn't appear that Sansa took this role to play "bad" cop, but rather, those were here actual feelings. 

[bunnyblue]

Oh boy, I see this thread has already turned into the same Sansa vs. Jon back and forth that took over the season 7 spoilers thread for the better part of the last year. Sigh.

Anyway, I'm still feeling all verklempt over the final scene. I'm glad they decided to forgo dialogue and that Dany's council stayed back and let her take in the momentous occasion. I couldn't help but feel a little sad that Viserys wasn't there with his sister. I know he was a bit mad and violent but he did raise her and kept her alive long enough for her to come into her own. I like to believe that his crazy ass is with her in spirit, along with Rhaegar and her mother. At the end of last season, I was sure Dany would land in Dorne but I'm happy they chose Dragonstone instead. It's perfect that she first arrive to the very place where she was forced to flee as an infant. 

I still can't tell the 3 dragons apart when they're in the air together. Sometimes I think I can make out the green one but then it'll flap its wings and look black. Or the gold one will fly a ways and then look green. Even Drogon is hard to make out sometimes. 

GOT continues with its callbacks; this time it was Jon telling Sansa that anything anyone says before the word "but" is horse shit. Benjen said the same thing to Tyrion in S1 but he didn't call it horse shit, he said Ned said it didn't "really count". I love that Ned passed down these little bits of wisdom to both his brother and his sons.

The Ed Sheeran cameo really took me out of the scene. I felt like I was watching Ed Sheeran and Maisie Williams. It's a shame because otherwise the scene was really good and I liked that we got to see a bit of humanity from Lannister soldiers. I did love Arya's girlish laugh after she said she was going to kill the queen. Sometimes I forget how young she still is.

[Cherpumple]

6 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

Anyway, I'm still feeling all verklempt over the final scene. I'm glad they decided to forgo dialogue and that Dany's council stayed back and let her take in the momentous occasion.

I'm no Dany fan, but I got verklempt as well. It was very well done, and her face said it all, no need for dialogue. I do hope that we see more of Dragonstone, especially some trinkets left behind by her mother or other ancestors. After all this time seeing her as a fish out of water, it would be great to see her really connecting with her family in a more meaningful way than just yapping on about her presumed birthright. I want her to understand the Targs as real people, not just as a line of faceless rulers.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Cherpumple

[shireenbamfatheon]

How is Sansa supposed to discuss plans with Jon in private when he single-handedly made the decision in public without ever conferring with her or anyone else about it? Sansa already told him to include her when he acted without considering she had something to say last season, and then he goes and does it again this season and she's supposed to... what? Just sit there and look pretty? Not have any say in the future of their home? Not have any agency of her own? Act as Jon's cheerleader? Maybe if Jon had an actual council, Sansa would have talked to him in private, kinda like Tyrion, Barristan and Jorah did with Dany. 

Jon's acting like he's still at the Wall, making all the decisions without listening to others and ignoring some of the best advice given by a character in the show - Tywin - who said a wise ruler listened to his council. We have literally seen Jon do the exact thing at the Wall as he's doing now: sending away his most loyal supporters (Tormund), making decisions without others' input and thus alienating his people (the promo), heading out on missions himself and letting discord sow at base as a result (the trailer and spoilers) etc. Jon's not LC anymore; he's King, and kings listen to their people so they don't end up in a similar position as Robb or Stannis. Ned used to sit back and listen to his people before he decided on something, something Robb used to emulate in the earlier seasons. But Jon is truly acting as a lone wolf and it's patronizing and frustrating as hell. He has learned literally nothing from his death and I wish Sansa was cruel enough to bring it up.

Honestly, to me, it doesn't even seem like people have so much as an issue with the words being spoken against Jon as they do with Sansa speaking those words. Arya is cheered on for killing all the men in the Frey line with a smirk and then people turn around and paint Sansa as a monster for proposing that maybe they shouldn't let the kids of the men they killed be in charge of the most powerful strongholds in the North? The kids swearing their fealty proved absolutely nothing since they're a bunch of scared children who have literally no choice but to currently comply with Jon, but once they grow older? What then? Aren't their mothers going to hold a grudge against the Starks? Isn't it at all a possibility, even a probability, that the kids are going to despise the Starks when they're adults? Are they just supposed to get over the fact that Jon killed their dads? Would the Starks have gotten over it if they had been in their position? The whole thing is so short-sighted, and I really don't like that they're incapable of making Jon good without making him dumb. Couldn't he have taken the children in as his wards? Or proposed marriages between Houses? Instead, he goes all out and says "fuck it we're cool". 

As for Cersei, she's most certainly going to try something seeing as she's gone all batshit insane this season. There's nothing wrong with reminding Jon about the enemies south of the Wall instead of just north of it. They have no idea when the NK will attack, but they do know that Cersei has risen to power and demanded to see them, so she's clearly acting fast. 

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Czanne said:

Good cop, bad cop: Sansa took the second role, because the issue she raises is important, and those two heirs need to realize they have very little latitude to f'up. Recall, the first idea is destroy the castle and everything and one associated. That's disastrous. Both Stark proposals are more merciful, and by Sansa taking the bad cop, it allows Jon to sound both strong and stern, gaining the loyalty of two children.

If this was their intention then that would be good. Jon and Sansa working together. But this was clearly Sansa disagreeing with Jon because she thinks he is being dumb like Ned and Robb or something. LF was almost having an orgasm in the corner there when Sansa started to speak up against Jon.

3 hours ago, doram said:

It's amusing too that Sansa thinks Ned was a fool for trusting his airheaded daughter to be more loyal to him than the woman who had her direwolf murdered.

It almost feels like Sansa does not even like who her family is at this point. She blames Ned for not protecting her - like really Sansa? Ned confessed to treason and died to protect her. She compares Jon to Joffrey startling Jon into confronting her about it. All she does is talk shit about Ned, Robb and now Jon - these are men who have had to grapple with tough decisions and made some right choices and some wrong ones. To constantly label them as stupid just does not sit right with me, especially, as we see in this episode, her decisions are not all that smart either.

Ned was beloved in the North. If she does not want to rule like him, she should probably go south.

Edited July 17, 2017 by anamika

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

How is Sansa supposed to discuss plans with Jon in private when he single-handedly made the decision in public without ever conferring with her or anyone else about it? Sansa already told him to include her when he acted without considering she had something to say last season, and then he goes and does it again this season and she's supposed to... what? Just sit there and look pretty? Not have any say in the future of their home? Not have any agency of her own? Act as Jon's cheerleader? Maybe if Jon had an actual council, Sansa would have talked to him in private, kinda like Tyrion, Barristan and Jorah did with Dany

Who is Sansa that Jon has to discuss anything with her? What experience does she even have with ruling anything? He confers with  her as a courtesy not out of necessity. If she has a problem, take it up in private not in the middle of a meeting. Questioning his decisions in front of everybody only breeds discontent. 

[britesongs]

1 hour ago, TwistedandBored said:

Oh, I wanna say that one thing I have noticed in this and in many other episodes is that Danny never goes for the throne whenever she sees one. Like in season 2 during her vision, she didn't sit on the Iron throne even though she wanted to and in Meereen she focused on the slave masters before deciding to sit on the throne. In this episode. She didn't immediately sit in the throne. Instead, she went to the strategy room and thought of the war to come. I think that is neat character trait she has. 

This reminded me of Daario's comment last season that she is a conqueror and not a ruler (in that she'll be bored once she wins and sits the throne). I think it's a nice detail that reinforce that idea. 

 

30 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

The kids swearing their fealty proved absolutely nothing since they're a bunch of scared children who have literally no choice but to currently comply with Jon, but once they grow older? What then? Aren't their mothers going to hold a grudge against the Starks? Isn't it at all a possibility, even a probability, that the kids are going to despise the Starks when they're adults? Are they just supposed to get over the fact that Jon killed their dads? Would the Starks have gotten over it if they had been in their position?

Couldn't this just as easily swing the other direction? Couldn't they be grateful that after the betrayals of their fathers/husbands, they still have their homes and lives? It's not like Jon just randomly murdered the lords; Umber and Karstark sided with the Boltons and actively plotted and fought against the Starks, which is going against, as they said, hundreds (thousands? Can't remember) of years of fealty.

In fact, had Jon taken their lands/castles from them, it would have been more like what happened to the Starks. Winterfell was taken by the Boltons and the Starks fought to get it back and would have never given up on it. Losing their lands would have created angrier families who would be more likely to seek revenge than those who were forgiven and feel they owe a debt to Jon.

Edited July 17, 2017 by britesongs

[calvinshobbes]

Great opening episode! 

My take is that Jon made the decision not as a Stark but as the King in the North. They needed everyone to fight the white walkers so getting the Karstarks and Umbers back in the fold was important. Sansa saw the decision through the prism of being a Stark and being betrayed. It was basically the same getting revenge/rewarding friends petty arguments that Jon knows there is no time for because the real threat is coming. 

[Cherpumple]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

It almost feels like Sansa does not even like who her family is at this point.

Not only that, but I don't even know what she wants anymore. She started out wanting the life of a fairytale princess/queen, then she wanted to escape and find her family, then she wanted to reclaim her home, but now what? Most of the other main characters are focused on consolidating their rule, seeking revenge, or preparing for a looming battle, but what is driving Sansa? What are her actual goals and desires at this point? It's all very muddled for me, which makes it difficult for me to root for her when she's being whiny and evasive.

 

15 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Arya is cheered on for killing all the men in the Frey line with a smirk and then people turn around and paint Sansa as a monster for proposing that maybe they shouldn't let the kids of the men they killed be in charge of the most powerful strongholds in the North?

I'm fascinated by this dichotomy in the book fandom as well. Arya is praised as a "badass" for killing multiple people without a second thought, and yet I still read opinions saying that Sansa is one of the most evil people in Westeros for telling Cersei that Ned wanted to take her and Arya out of King's Landing. Get a grip, she was a naive 12-year old who barely had any facts about the situation. It was hardly a malicious act, and realistically, how far would Ned's entourage had gotten anyway before Cersei sent soldiers to track them down? Anyway, Arya just generally seems to have more fans than Sansa, so that might be a partial answer to your question. Personally, I'm more than a little horrified at how easily she can decide to kill people, but I guess in Westeros it's not that unusual. However, I definitely cheered Arya's revenge on the Freys because we knew exactly who they were and what they had done. And it helped that they were all cheering on the memory of the Red Wedding right before drinking the poison. These were unambiguously "bad guys" (I don't think we were ever shown a sympathetic Frey). In Sansa's case, the offending bannermen had been killed in battle, so any punishment meted out would not affect them, only their innocent children. It's a different situation and requires more long-term planning and strategy (maintaining northern defenses), so a different tack should be used. Lastly, the Freys have a longer history of being untrustworthy, while it was repeatedly acknowledged that the Karstark's and Umber's treachery was a terrible anomaly in 1000 year record of being loyal to the Starks. I'm sure every family in the North has had a couple of bad apples over the years. If houses were displaced or destroyed every time that happened, there would be no great houses left. (The exception of course being the Boltons. They can rot in the seven hells!) 

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Robb beheaded a Karstark and look where it got him. I get where Sansa was coming from, but Jon is in the right here. They don't need to piss off those houses even more. They need them back and loyal.

Just gonna point out that Robb beheading Karstark was the right decision. 

 

He was expecting a slap on the wrist because he thought Robb was weak and he had already encouraged his men to desert before he was executed anyway. Only a couple hundred Karstarks end up deserting (in the books).

 

In the show, it was painted as a terrible decision seeing as the Karstarks made up more of the army than the Starks and Boltons put together which makes little sense but whatever

 

 but still, Robb had no real choice 

[patchwork]

I loved the opening scene, NOW the Red Wedding has been avenged. It'll probably never happen but I'd love a scene later in the season where Arya and Sansa are circlejerking their 'the world and people suck' opinions and Jon and Bran are in the background with WTF faces. I just want my Stark reunion. 

If Little Miss I'm So Tough can voice her opinions during the King's court so can the Lady of Winterfell and I'm not going to get into whether Jon or Sansa is right or wrong because they both have valid points.  The big problem is that Jon is ruling like he's he's the Night Commander, even Dany has a Small Council and it's so that everything has already been discussed and the decision already made before it's presented to everyone else. Jon needs to organise his kingdom.

In the books I'm all for Brienne and Jamie but Brienne and Tormund have won me over in the show. He worships her and I love it.

[Potanical Pardon]

To me, Sansa's just upgraded her fantasy of being a fairytale princess, now having seen Margaery, Olena and Cersei, to being a fairytale princess that people fall over themselves to please. I see no real difference in her progression other than now being aware of the evil realities of the world. She still basks in feeling superior to whomever is low-hanging fruit in her eyes, and at best only softens after given time to get to know them/actually listen - Tyrion, Robin, Brienne (and every time, only when she's forced to spend time with them). Littlefinger is her current target, not that he's not undeserving of her scorn or anything. But she needs to check herself because even though she knows he's a manipulative SOB, and he knows she knows, she's still way outmatched. She's a try-hard and wants to be seen as important while never earning it. Looks the part, acts the part, with none of the knowledge or skill - just waits around for someone to fall in her lap to guide her until the next crisis. 

Way to go, you wrote a letter to get Littlefinger to bring an army. He has spies, he knew what was going on. He was always just waiting for an opportunity to move on Winterfell. That Jon was going to lose without The Vale doesn't make her action meaningful or a "she was right, he was wrong, therefore..." That wasn't any slick strategy on her part, that was math. And that math only served to satisfy her one-track mind of revenge on Ramsay.

Lady Mormont was eager to join the fight despite her position and I'm sure she and Brienne will be involved with the training of new soldiers of all ages and genders. You know whose eyes probably glazed at all of that during the meeting as well as probably showing complete inattention to progress with training when it happens? Yup. Meanwhile, never opening up any book of possible use, seeking out and interviewing anyone for their takes and experiences (or just flat out getting to know her neighbors and new friends), pacing around balconies thinking up how to get to her next "Ya burnt!" moments until it's time for an audience for her to pose in front of and interject whenever she's sensed that the focus isn't on her.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Potanical Pardon

[egnever]

1 hour ago, Cherpumple said:

I'm fascinated by this dichotomy in the book fandom as well. Arya is praised as a "badass" for killing multiple people without a second thought, and yet I still read opinions saying that Sansa is one of the most evil people in Westeros for telling Cersei that Ned wanted to take her and Arya out of King's Landing.

Because the action of Arya killing a bunch of people without a second thought is born out of loyalty and fealty to avenge the people that killed her family. And Sansa ratting out Ned to Cersei was based in large part on selfish fancies because she loved the attention and pageantry of King's Landing.

That's not to say that Sansa being hoodwinked in that situation is not realistic or understandable. I'm sure a fair percentage of the population would have in her shoes. But when we're assessing characters who we root for, generally traits like loyalty and agency are preferable to selfishness and capriciousness.

Edited July 17, 2017 by egnever

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Arya's still single-minded in her obsession with revenge. At this point we've come so far with her that we prefer her continuing to cross names off her list instead of being reunited with her family at Winterfell.  I don't think she's going to be the one to kill Cersei so I do wonder what her story in King's Landing will be.
 

Does she even know that her family retook Winterfell? I don't remember that she had an update, and her ignorance of what Cersei did in KL seems to show that she is out of the loop about the last developments in Westeros. Maybe she doesn't know she has a choice to make. She does believe that Jon is at the Wall (although she can't be certain) so maybe indeed she wants to finish the job before trying to find where home is now. She still has her revenge in mind of course (and thankfully! I love my Nemesis Arya) but what I meant is that she didn't drown in it and it didn't affect her ability to see the human factor, and didn't alter her personal moral code. For me, Arya has always been ruthless and coldblooded, but only with those she deemed guilty of crimes in her book. She was unable to kill Lady Crane and even in 6x10, she could have killed Jaime Lannister and she didn't. Ironically, I believe that if she had known what he did to Bran, he would have ended in a pie.

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

That would work if we assume that all the Freys there were adults during the red wedding. I'm pretty sure that there were some to young to participate in those atrocities and Arya didn't give a damn, it was all about killing off the Frey bloodline.

The camera shows the assistance in details and there are only grown men.  Actual quotes: "l gathered every Frey who means a damn thing", "The men who helped me slaughter the Starks at the Red Wedding" crowd: *cheers proudly*, "Brave men, all of you, butchered a woman etc." = Arya killed off those who participated in those atrocities and not every Frey.

2 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

I didn't think Arya spared that one woman (not all the women in the room) because she was innocent, but because Arya needed to have a surviving witness to spread the word about the vengeance that had been done to the Frey family. Yes, she may have picked someone for this task who likely wasn't involved in the Red Wedding (Walder's new wife?) but I felt it was more about getting her message out into the world about what she had done to them.

"Not you. I'm not wasting good wine on a damn woman" = so not on this one only, on "women". No woman drinks, they only serve the wine, and as the men collapse and then when Arya leaves the room, you see that they're all still standing. Arya did want witnesses (reminded me of Tyrion in 6x10) but she didn't need the one next to her in particular, since she had all the others. She could have let her drink and die, and she didn't. So I conclude that she did want to spare all the women, precisely because they didn't participate in the Red Wedding.

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

He trusted Littlefinger.  It has to be public knowledge that Littlefinger betrayed Ned in season 1.

If that was public knowledge there's no way the Northern Lords and Jon would be OK with Littlefinger hanging out, Vale army or not.

Sansa makes a good point about Jon totally ignoring the south and possibly being a bit naive but like it or not he's the King in the North.  Publicly opposing him is idiotic - it pisses him off and those northern lords who respect him will turn on her.  The North has already had its civil war and lost a big chunk of its army.  They can't afford to split up again.

Also, will the Faceless men really be OK with a former acolyte using their tricks to murder everyone on her kill list? 

[Bill1978]

I enjoyed the opening scene, finally the Starks got revenge for the Red Wedding. I liked the new city being added to the opening credits. I liked the approaching storm of Winter scene. And I like the little bit at the Wall. I enjoyed Lady Mormont's speech. Every thing else though was a complete bore for me. But then I didn't get hooked on GoT for the politics, which this episode was filled with. And I still don't care about Dany's quest.

[SimoneS]

9 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

how firm a grip on the reigns of power do you suppose Robin has?

Very firm. The Vales' lords haven't been enthusiastically following Littlefinger's commands. It is clear from last season, they are only doing it because Robin commanded them. Their loyalty has always been to Robin and the Starks. They aren't riding off to join the Lannisters just because Littlefinger says so, especially not now that Jon is the King of the North. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by SimoneS

[MarySNJ]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

Oh, I don't disagree. I mean Jon even mentions this in the episode - her experiences with Cersei has changed her. I am just arguing that Jon has a valid argument when he says that the WW are the more urgent threat and not Cersei's army. If Sansa thinks that secret assassins send by Cersei are out to get them, then she should be more specific.

I agree. Sansa's experiences with Cersei have changed her, but it's still partly PTSD, IMO. She's magnifying the threat in her head because she lived in fear of Cersei for so long. But you're absolutely right, if she wants Jon to take the treat seriously she needs to tell him to be wary of Cersei's assassins.