S03.E10: Lantern

[Irlandesa]

9 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Just because you get the short term result desired doesnt mean the overall plan didn't suck, just like yes, you can hit on 19 when playing Blackjack, and draw a two, but hitting on 19 is still dumb.

It's precisely why I said the effectiveness of his plans was up for debate.  But I'm also not going to pretend that he also didn't face some extraordinary subterfuge that he should have predicted.  Or that Chuck was incompetent as a lawyer.  Or that discovery by the insurance company was inevitable.  Not when all of it was deliberate machinations on Jimmy's part.  If I were putting it in blackjack terms, I'd say he was hitting 16  when the dealer has deliberately removed all but 1 or 2 cards with a value under 6.

[Jextella]

23 minutes ago, SnarkyTart said:

He's not only merely dead, he's really most sincerely dead.

I love Chuck but this is worth repeating.

I'm going to use the next year to rewatch BCS and likely much of BB.  Can't wait.

[PeterPirate]

8 hours ago, SnarkyTart said:

He's not only merely dead, he's really most sincerely dead.

I very much appreciated Michael McKean's understanding of Chuck when asked about it on Talking Saul last night.  It's his interpretation that Chuck is totally lacking in self-awareness and self-reflection.  McKean's interpretation of Chuck makes me think perhaps Chuck didn't commit suicide because he couldn't deal with all the loss and devastation in his life.  He was still trying to master his electricity illness when he first woke up in bed to write in his medical progress journal and take a pill.  Initially, in that scene he was still doing the color-naming therapy technique from Dr. Cruz.  It's possible that Chuck committed suicide because his illness, which he still believes is real, is slipping out of his control again.  After tearing his whole house apart, he still couldn't find whatever spark of electricity the meter was recording.  Unable to stop what he believed was the true source of his misery, the electricity, he had no choice but to kill himself to escape the torture of it.  Of course, Chuck's electricity illness is psychosomatic and represents Chuck's inability to resolve, let alone recognize, his psychological conflicts, of which Jimmy is a huge part.  But Chuck doesn't realize that.   His electrical illness is real to Chuck, and failing to master it, he couldn't live with it anymore. 

And most sin-sear-ly dead.

The tragedy of Chuck is that he was a giant in his particular field. On two occasions we saw the entire staff of HHM turn out and lavish praise on their firm's founding member.  We don't know the extent to which Jimmy's presence factored into Chuck's mental instability, and we don't know how much that factored into the failure of Chuck's marriage. But from a purely professional standpoint, Chuck was a tremendous success.  

In addition, not only was Jimmy a possible/probable cause of Chuck's illness, he was also a main reason why that illness went untreated. Chuck kept his focus on his problematic brother, and never explored his own weaknesses.

Edited June 21, 2017 by PeterPirate

[Jextella]

1 hour ago, SnarkyTart said:

He's not only merely dead, he's really most sincerely dead.

I very much appreciated Michael McKean's understanding of Chuck when asked about it on Talking Saul last night.  It's his interpretation that Chuck is totally lacking in self-awareness and self-reflection.  McKean's interpretation of Chuck makes me think perhaps Chuck didn't commit suicide because he couldn't deal with all the loss and devastation in his life.  He was still trying to master his electricity illness when he first woke up in bed to write in his medical progress journal and take a pill.  Initially, in that scene he was still doing the color-naming therapy technique from Dr. Cruz.  It's possible that Chuck committed suicide because his illness, which he still believes is real, is slipping out of his control again.  After tearing his whole house apart, he still couldn't find whatever spark of electricity the meter was recording.  Unable to stop what he believed was the true source of his misery, the electricity, he had no choice but to kill himself to escape the torture of it.  Of course, Chuck's electricity illness is psychosomatic and represents Chuck's inability to resolve, let alone recognize, his psychological conflicts, of which Jimmy is a huge part.  But Chuck doesn't realize that.   His electrical illness is real to Chuck, and failing to master it, he couldn't live with it anymore. 

I think Chuck's speech to Jimmy was partially intended for himself.  He asks Jimmy what the point is of runing around feeling bad for misdeeds, etc. if your'e gonna keep running around doing misdeeds.  Pick a side.

I need to learn more about Chuck's and Jimmy's experience growing up, but I wonder if the suicide is just what you say here.  Chuck keeps running around taking pills, documenting his experiences, proclaiming he'll get better, going down research rabbit holes, etc.  If he's gonna be mentally sick, be mentally sick.  Pick a side.  

He acquiesced to Howard far too easily.  Howard says Chuck won, but I think Howard knew at that moment he had really lost.  That was it for him.  The illness got him.
 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Jextella

[Dev F]

35 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Just because you get the short term result desired doesnt mean the overall plan didn't suck, just like yes, you can hit on 19 when playing Blackjack, and draw a two, but hitting on 19 is still dumb. If your business plan for your good-sized law firm is "When we need to, we'll rely on our senior partner who thinks electricity is attacking him, to the point that if our professional liability insurer ever finds out about it, they'll double the rates for every lawyer in the firm",  then you need to re-evaluate the plan, and question the judgement of the person who thought it was an acceptable plan.

I think that overstates the situation a bit, though. Mesa Verde was a valuable client, but it wasn't important to HHM in the sense of being necessary to keep the lights on. After all, they'd been getting along just fine before Kim dumped the account in their lap a few weeks earlier. Sure, Howard wanted to hang on to them if he could, but he wasn't desperate to do so; he characterized his final meeting with Kevin and Paige as "One last Hail Mary."

And his original plan wasn't to drag his crazy partner into the office to save the account. He just wanted Chuck to give him some pointers on compliance law, since it's outside his main area of expertise. Chuck was the one who insisted on coming into the office and making a big pitch himself -- not because he feared for the future of the firm but because he was dismayed by the news that Kim was taking Mesa Verde to go out on her own with Jimmy.

To me this suggests that Howard's business plan is more like "Be big and diversified enough that we can absorb ordinary client turnover if necessary, but call on the expertise of my fellow partners to keep that turnover to a minimum." That doesn't seem all that dumb to me.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, MissBluxom said:

If you were Jimmy, wouldn't you try to contest that anyone who Chuck left the money to shouldn't get it because Chuck was clearly insane?

I'm assuming that Chuck's estate will be in probate for a long time. It's very large, Chuck probably burnt up a lot of his documents in the fire, and there's no telling how old his previous wills are or if they're his last ones.

I mean, for all we know, the will he has on file with his lawyer might still name his mother and wife as his beneficiaries. Things could get really complicated.

Normally, lawyers might tend to keep on top of things like updating their estate planning docs. But Chuck was really sick. Jimmy referred to paying his bills early on, and he needed a helper (Jimmy or Ernie) to come by every day to make sure he was getting basics like groceries and his newspapers. I don't think he was necessarily in a place where he could keep up with stuff like making a new will.

Also, between the divorce and his mother dying, he also had a lot of upheaval in the past few years, which could make making a new will especially emotionally daunting, too. I mean, everyone knows that Chuck would never want to put Jimmy in his will, but who else does he even have?

In any case, I'm thinking about who is going to go through the burnt out ruin of the house. Is Jimmy going to do that? If there's anything left of the house, I can honestly see Jimmy potentially doing something really nuts, like squatting there for a while. If Chuck is dead (and I agree with most everyone that he probably is), I really wonder how Jimmy is going to deal with that.

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I like to think that in one of those moments of extremely sharp lucidity that the elderly often have, Irene knows that Jimmy sacrificed himself for her.

Yes, it actually seemed to me that Irene understood what Jimmy was doing, that he was throwing himself under the bus for her. My feeling is based on how the actress played it, her facial expressions.

I could believe that Irene would understand what was happening, too.

In fact, she's such a sweet person that I think it's possible that her instinct would be to believe the best about Jimmy anyway, so she'd probably be even more likely than most to suspect that he was throwing himself under the bus to take the blame off of her with her friends.

46 minutes ago, SnarkyTart said:

Unable to stop what he believed was the true source of his misery, the electricity, he had no choice but to kill himself to escape the torture of it.

Yes, I think that Chuck was genuinely in a lot of pain. All the characters kept saying that even though the allergy wasn't real, Chuck's pain was real. Whether he understood that the pain was from something other than an allergy to electricity, though, who knows.

Chuck definitely had an instinct to isolate himself whenever he was in pain, in any case. I think that's where this idea of an "allergy" to light and every communication device beyond snail mail came from in the first place.

[Dobian]

Kudos to the kid who played young Chuck.  When I heard him reading to Jimmy in the tent I knew it wasn't present day Chuck, but it sounded exactly like him.  Great job picking up on the cadence and speech patterns.

Oh Chuck, you miserable little man.  You had one last piece of unfinished business before ending yourself, making sure Jimmy knew how little he means to you.  No sympathy here.

I liked Howard this episode.  Sending Chuck packing even at great personal loss to himself took guts.

Saul reverted back to Jimmy by exposing himself to the old ladies to save Irene.  I wonder if they'll settle anyway now that Irene knows the others need the money.  Still crappy how they treated her.

Time to order Hector that bell!

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

It's precisely why I said the effectiveness of his plans was up for debate.  But I'm also not going to pretend that he also didn't face some extraordinary subterfuge that he should have predicted.  Or that Chuck was incompetent as a lawyer.  Or that discovery by the insurance company was inevitable.  Not when all of it was deliberate machinations on Jimmy's part.  If I were putting it in blackjack terms, I'd say he was hitting 16  when the dealer has deliberately removed all but 1 or 2 cards with a value under 6.

We will have to agree to disagree on whether it is inevitable that an insurance company will eventually discover that a senior partner at a largish firm it insures has the sort of mental illness that Chuck exhibited.

[PeterPirate]

Another thing to consider about Howard is that he took on the responsibility to deal with Chuck by himself. As far as we know, none of the other partners contributed to the buyout or lent money to Howard. It's even possible they don't know about Chuck's threatened lawsuit.  

Howard was in a subordinate, deferential position to Chuck. The only way for Howard to attain primacy was to buy Chuck out, which he did by taking on an enormous personal liability. 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

I think that overstates the situation a bit, though. Mesa Verde was a valuable client, but it wasn't important to HHM in the sense of being necessary to keep the lights on. After all, they'd been getting along just fine before Kim dumped the account in their lap a few weeks earlier. Sure, Howard wanted to hang on to them if he could, but he wasn't desperate to do so; he characterized his final meeting with Kevin and Paige as "One last Hail Mary."

And his original plan wasn't to drag his crazy partner into the office to save the account. He just wanted Chuck to give him some pointers on compliance law, since it's outside his main area of expertise. Chuck was the one who insisted on coming into the office and making a big pitch himself -- not because he feared for the future of the firm but because he was dismayed by the news that Kim was taking Mesa Verde to go out on her own with Jimmy.

To me this suggests that Howard's business plan is more like "Be big and diversified enough that we can absorb ordinary client turnover if necessary, but call on the expertise of my fellow partners to keep that turnover to a minimum." That doesn't seem all that dumb to me.

When exposing your firm to the risk of doubling your insurance costs, if the insurance company ever gets wind of your crazy partner's condition, then allowing your crazy partner to meet with clients is a really bad plan. Heck, if Kim had taken the job offer from Schweiker, it wouldn't have been Jimmy exposing Chuck. Schweiker would have ruthlessly exposed Chuck's condition, to win Mesa Verde, and stick it to a competitor, all under the guise of adhering to legal ethics.

It was really, really, poor judgement by Howard to indulge and enable Chuck for as long as Howard did.

[Jextella]

47 minutes ago, Bannon said:

When exposing your firm to the risk of doubling your insurance costs, if the insurance company ever gets wind of your crazy partner's condition, then allowing your crazy partner to meet with clients is a really bad plan. Heck, if Kim had taken the job offer from Schweiker, it wouldn't have been Jimmy exposing Chuck. Schweiker would have ruthlessly exposed Chuck's condition, to win Mesa Verde, and stick it to a competitor, all under the guise of adhering to legal ethics.

It was really, really, poor judgement by Howard to indulge and enable Chuck for as long as Howard did.

Agreed.   Howard had to choose....do the right thing by Howard vs. do the right thing by the firm.  He gave Chuck plenty of time, and he was crapped on time and time again.

If Kim's judgement can be called into question for recommending Jimmy to Davis and Main, then Howard's judgement can be called into question for supporting Chuck.   Funny how both brothers did a number on their respective "partners".

One question about HHM and Chuck.  If Chuck was so fantabulous, and only away for around 2 years, what happened to all the firms money?  Seems the firm isn't doing so well financially so why kow-tow to Chuck afterall? 

[Quilt Fairy]

On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 0:40 AM, PrincessSteel said:

Oh, for sure! I do miss trips to Blockbuster with my kids when they were wee ones. So exciting! So many possibilities! Are we missing something with on-demand entertainment? Shouldn't we have to exert ourselves even a little bit? What's next, prepared food delivered directly to your door? Oh, wait...

Are you old enough to remember the card catalog at the library?  Direct digital searching is no comparison to the adventure of looking through the card catalog.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

17 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I disagree. Their lives are not all about money. Kim clearly realized her drive and work ethic could have killed someone. She was being reckless without knowing it -- contrasting to Jimmy's recklessness, where he knows he's hurting someone -- but she had ability and resolve to change. Jimmy, though more excitable about money, changed course also when his love for Kim made his realize what's important in life. 

 

 

I am with you when it comes to what Kim would accept.  The problem is Jimmy.  He has woefully misread why she loves him and he is obsessed with being "worthy."  A very healthy part of this to JM is an ability to provide material comfort.  He is the eternal screw-up (as gutwrenchingly reinforced by Chuck) and has a super deep need to prove himself.  The only thing left in his life to which he still aspires?  Kim's love.

So, he overthinks it and chooses...poorly.  He completely missed that Kim was fine with the effort he had gone to in attempting to make things right with/for Irene.  In fact, it is quite likely that she thought Irene was the one who truly messed it all up with her silly indifference to the practicalities of the Sandpiper case.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Jextella said:

Agreed.   Howard had to choose....do the right thing by Howard vs. do the right thing by the firm.  He gave Chuck plenty of time, and he was crapped on time and time again.

If Kim's judgement can be called into question for recommending Jimmy to Davis and Main, then Howard's judgement can be called into question for supporting Chuck.   Funny how both brothers did a number on their respective "partners".

One question about HHM and Chuck.  If Chuck was so fantabulous, and only away for around 2 years, what happened to all the firms money?  Seems the firm isn't doing so well financially so why kow-tow to Chuck afterall? 

The firm could be doing great, and still not have enough liquidity to give Chuck 9 million in cash. Yes, the money could be borrowed, if annual profits are good, but that probably requires both senior partners agreeing to do so.

[bethster2000]

6 hours ago, FlyingEgret said:

Agree.  And at the same time Howard let the rest of the attorneys and employees know that Chuck no longer works there in case Chuck tried to coerce info or files from them.

This was my favorite moment in the entire episode.  Chuck made a grave mistake when he decided to fuck with Howard.

"effective immediately"  Wow.

[smorbie]

9 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I am the exact opposite.

 

I have had far too much of Jimmy and Chuck and hope to God CHuck is dead just for that reason.  I really did not need 3 seasons of that. 

 

I find the drug cartel stuff far more interesting than a petty sibling law squabble.

I've read a lot of that on these threads, and I'm just...bemused...I guess is the word for it.  It's endlessly interesting to me how people are attracted to different things about a program.

On BB I never enjoyed the cartel stuff.  I tended to tune out as much as possible because it just doesn't interest me.  I was only interested in how it affected the main characters.

It certainly appears as if this is going to be the main direction for this show in the future, if there is a future.  And I don't know that I can follow it there.  I'm just not interested.

But I'm honestly glad you and the others are enjoying it.  :)

[BetyBee]

"Chuck roast" (heard on Rob Has a Podcast).

I was a bit (just a bit) disappointed.  It was a good episode, with a lot happening, but I can't believe that Jimmy still hasn't slipped into Saul.  Of course there is the cliffhanger of how everyone will react to Chuck's death and that Gus appears to be on to Nacho.  I want Nacho to be safe, but it is clear that Gus wants to keep Hector alive for him (and no one else) to torture.  I hope that Nacho will survive.  I'll definitely be watching, but I didn't find this finale completely satisfying.  As I watched the very long scene of Chuck destroying his awesome house, I surprised myself by saying "effing loon" a couple of times.  I do have empathy for mental illness, but Chuck is not a good person under all of that.  That was clearly demonstrated by his dismissal of Jimmy early in the episode.  Wearing the space blanket seems to be Chuck wanting this to look like an accidental death so that he retains his dignity, but what would a fire inspector make of the smashed and destroyed electric meter?  Will they think that was a result of the fire?  I love Kim and I see only sadness ahead for Kim and Jimmy.  Francesca was awesome - I wonder what makes her break bad to become a less than awesome admin assistant?  Maybe going back to the DMV makes her break bad.  

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, bethster2000 said:

This was my favorite moment in the entire episode.  Chuck made a grave mistake when he decided to fuck with Howard.

"effective immediately"  Wow.

I was surprised and impressed that Howard found the cojones to deal decisively with Chuck, even though it took him a long time.  I didn't care for the way he did it, it wasn't a done deal by giving Chuck a personal check and parading him through the lobby didn't make it so.  No termination papers were signed, no dissolution of the partnership, Chuck is still owed $6 million. 

I watched the episode again and had not noticed that Chuck was wearing his space blanket at the very end.  Also, there was a baseball bat laying on the ground in the opening tent scene, and Chuck used one on his electric meter.  They do attend to detail on this show.

Chuck's end was tough to watch.  It's not like he was sleeping and was going to die from smoke inhalation, the flames were right there.  A horrific way to die, and I actually know someone who did that, in her car.  She was about to be involuntarily committed and overheard a phone call between her husband and her psychiatrist.  Truly disordered thinking in mental illness, which I think was the case with Chuck.  No way would a person chose that method otherwise. 

[msrachelj]

On 6/19/2017 at 11:34 PM, zibnchy said:

That scene where Chuck tells Jimmy he "never really mattered all that much" to Chuck, was devastating. My siblings and I aren;t very close but it would shatter me if one of them said that. Burn Chuck.

What do we think is up for next season?

people, especially family, can be so cruel. a lot.  when i was a young girl ,  motherless, lonely, feeling different, my much older brother and i had an argument about something and he said to me "you don't have any personality, your little brother got all the personality" that was 50 years ago, he's been dead a while now  and it still hurts. and i don't forgive him. 

[DrSpaceman73]

1 hour ago, smorbie said:

I've read a lot of that on these threads, and I'm just...bemused...I guess is the word for it.  It's endlessly interesting to me how people are attracted to different things about a program.

On BB I never enjoyed the cartel stuff.  I tended to tune out as much as possible because it just doesn't interest me.  I was only interested in how it affected the main characters.

It certainly appears as if this is going to be the main direction for this show in the future, if there is a future.  And I don't know that I can follow it there.  I'm just not interested.

But I'm honestly glad you and the others are enjoying it.  :)

My preference from the beginning of the show and what I was expecting was more Saul, not Jimmy, with new and interesting characters around him based on his law practice we saw in Breaking Bad. 

If they wanted to do a bit of a prequel for a season or two, OK, but it seems the whole show is a prequel to Breaking Bad, which isn't really what I wanted to see.  Plus this is basically becoming a rehash of Breaking Bad, how does a good character become more dubious and "bad" or "slimy" or however you want to describe Saul.  They did that show already in Breaking Bad. 

That has been my criticism of the show from the beginning, though it seems I am in the minority.  I enjoy the show.  I find it interesting.  I just think Saul Goodman is a much more enjoyable and interesting character to watch than Jimmy McGill. 

[JudyObscure]

Our idiot brothers Msrachelj!  Most people think personality means loud.  They often come to visit me and say they're surprised that my home doesn't show my personality.  I yell at  them, "Obsessively clean and minimalist is my personality!" My two older brothers have not only said awful things to me (which I'll never get over, either) they haven't spoken to each other in years. Which is why this show has been completely believable to me.

I for one have absolutely loved ,The Chuck and Jimmy Show.  I can't imagine it without Chuck, he was not only Jimmy's antagonist he was Jimmy's reason for being.  Kim had her vision of Atticus to live up to, Jimmy had Chuck. This entire year Chuck has been breaking down what Jimmy thought of as a solid brotherly bond, ending with the awful statement that Jimmy never really mattered much to him.

In spite of all Chuck's cruelty to Jimmy, I still hated seeing his final mental collapse, and I hope against hope that his survival instinct made him run out of the house in time. The character was so well written and so well acted that I would be more than happy to see another season with him.

I have also loved every minute spent with Mike, Kim, Gus, and Nacho.  Hector, while despicable, is another great character because he reminds us that most drug dealers aren't brilliant masterminds like Gus, but grownup playground bullies who live for surface respect and money.  How typical of Hector to think he could bring Nacho's father around in a second with a small pile of cash.  He will think that's why Nacho's father picked up the money when we know it was because he was considering his family.

I'd like to think Kim gives up corporate law to become a criminal trial lawyer, either defending the innocent or prosecuting the guilty.  The Mesa Verde account makes me feel deeply depressed just to look at it.

[PeterPirate]

Gah, I have a sister and now I have to think about what she thinks about me.....

I have been wondering this morning if Kim will end up with Howard, and I've gotten to this place in a pretty convoluted fashion.  We see Saul call Francesca "Honey Tits", a type of behavior that we never see Jimmy display on the show. What caused him to become so bitter? The obvious solution is that he lost in the Game of Love. Just like Richard Blaine in Casablanca.  If Jimmy is Rick, who is Victor Laszlo?  Howard!

[Ronin Jackson]

One thing this episode established very well is why Jimmy is going to change his name to Saul. Before this episode that aspect of the story was unclear. But this episode established enough that to make the name change make sense. It's still a mystery how Chuck's death will affect Jimmy but changing his name could work as both a rebuke and a way to honor what Jimmy might believe would be Chuck's wish. It's also established that the name of Jimmy McGill is now tarnished, which also establishes why Saul will eventually tap into the type of clientele that eventually becomes his base (criminals are not going to be bothered by things the elderly might)). Going back to an earlier episode-- I wonder if changing his name will be a way for him to skirt around the insurance rate hikes as well..

[benteen]

I think I feel sorry for all those poor books in Chuck's house that went up in smoke...

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

 

I have also loved every minute spent with Mike, Kim, Gus, and Nacho.  Hector, while despicable, is another great character because he reminds us that most drug dealers aren't brilliant masterminds like Gus, but grownup playground bullies who live for surface respect and money.  How typical of Hector to think he could bring Nacho's father around in a second with a small pile of cash.  He will think that's why Nacho's father picked up the money when we know it was because he was considering his family.

 

Excellent assessment of Hector.  He is a bully though Margolis really does project a serious air of menace around him, like he's a guy you just don't want to be around because he can snap at any minute.

[Clanstarling]

On 6/20/2017 at 4:27 AM, MissBluxom said:

I don't think she's become a slacker. I think she just has serious doubts in her abilities (based on her line, "I could have killed someone") and she is afraid to work as a lawyer for fear of failing her clients. Hopefully this will pass soon.

Having been in the same position (car accident after overworking myself), I totally think this is her re-evaluating her choices, not being a slacker. I made some changes after mine (since the second thought in my head after I "came to" was "how will I meet my deadlines now?")

On 6/20/2017 at 6:26 AM, JFParnell said:

Ha!

Funny - you just know that Chuck would have an excruciatingly detailed will. I can only imagine what it would read like. "And let not one dime of my estate pass to my ne'er do well brother James."

My father had a spite clause like that in his will.  The only think he had to leave was nastiness.

22 hours ago, rue721 said:

I don't think that's shallow.

Jimmy thinks small. He's always thought small, for better or worse. It's why his scams were always so nickle-and-dime, and it's why he spotted the microscopic but systemic overcharging at Sandpiper. It's why he is affected by Irene's sadness and it's also why he was able to manipulate her and her friends so well beforehand. It's why he's overwhelmed by the prospect of this $1M Sandpiper payout, in contrast to Chuck, who couldn't care less about his own $9M HHM buyout (at least, couldn't care less financially).

Saul was like this, too. There's just something indelibly "small time" about him, I guess. Remember him telling Badger about the retainer? "$4,665. I'm going to write it on the back of my card."

I think that's a great observation.

19 hours ago, Paloma said:

Did anyone else notice that Kim showed much more physical affection to Jimmy in this episode than in most or even all previous episodes? We've seen them in bed together but mostly in a companionable, almost platonic way. In the past I've wondered about the lack of even mild physical affection and what it says about their relationship. Maybe Kim's close call with death made her appreciate Jimmy more, especially when she saw him trying to take care of her?

Yes. I hadn't really noticed the absence before (though of course, the forums did), but it really got my attention.

19 hours ago, rue721 said:

I thought it was adorable when Kim saw that Jimmy wanted to help her eat, and told him sardonically not to cross that line. I thought that was very sweet on both their parts. She let him fuss a little and he let her be a little independent. Very caring.

My comment was "he could at least cut up the food." 

14 hours ago, zenarcher said:

Seems to me that Kim has been signaling a change in direction. First she felt pretty bad about having gone after Chuck in court. Then ditching work for repeat showings of Mockingbird with the confesssion that she wanted to be Atticus and bemoaning the type of lawyer she became. Add to this any possible guilt she might feel for Chuck Roast and I can see her wanting to become a more idealistic lawyer. Pretty much the opposite of where Jimmy is heading as Saul. 

When she kept Jimmy from throwing out the rolodex of his elderly clients, it made me think that's the direction she'd go in.

11 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I like to think that in one of those moments of extremely sharp lucidity that the elderly often have, Irene knows that Jimmy sacrificed himself for her.

It's called life experience - seen it all before. :)

7 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Are you old enough to remember the card catalog at the library?  Direct digital searching is no comparison to the adventure of looking through the card catalog.

I got my library degree just on the cusp of digital catalogs. I miss the serendipitous finds when flipping through the cards.

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

My preference from the beginning of the show and what I was expecting was more Saul, not Jimmy, with new and interesting characters around him based on his law practice we saw in Breaking Bad. 

If they wanted to do a bit of a prequel for a season or two, OK, but it seems the whole show is a prequel to Breaking Bad, which isn't really what I wanted to see.  Plus this is basically becoming a rehash of Breaking Bad, how does a good character become more dubious and "bad" or "slimy" or however you want to describe Saul.  They did that show already in Breaking Bad. 

That has been my criticism of the show from the beginning, though it seems I am in the minority.  I enjoy the show.  I find it interesting.  I just think Saul Goodman is a much more enjoyable and interesting character to watch than Jimmy McGill. 

Thank you!  I agree and I hope things will move along quickly now.  I think that I was initially disappointed with how they started this series.  I had hoped we'd be seeing more of Saul by now.  Oh well....

[Bryce Lynch]

10 hours ago, SnarkyTart said:

He's not only merely dead, he's really most sincerely dead.

I very much appreciated Michael McKean's understanding of Chuck when asked about it on Talking Saul last night.  It's his interpretation that Chuck is totally lacking in self-awareness and self-reflection.  McKean's interpretation of Chuck makes me think perhaps Chuck didn't commit suicide because he couldn't deal with all the loss and devastation in his life.  He was still trying to master his electricity illness when he first woke up in bed to write in his medical progress journal and take a pill.  Initially, in that scene he was still doing the color-naming therapy technique from Dr. Cruz.  It's possible that Chuck committed suicide because his illness, which he still believes is real, is slipping out of his control again.  After tearing his whole house apart, he still couldn't find whatever spark of electricity the meter was recording.  Unable to stop what he believed was the true source of his misery, the electricity, he had no choice but to kill himself to escape the torture of it.  Of course, Chuck's electricity illness is psychosomatic and represents Chuck's inability to resolve, let alone recognize, his psychological conflicts, of which Jimmy is a huge part.  But Chuck doesn't realize that.   His electrical illness is real to Chuck, and failing to master it, he couldn't live with it anymore. 

I wonder if Chuck realizing (to some extent) that the illness is all in his head, ended up making it even harder for him to go on.  For a man of such great intellect, who prides himself on always being right, to be made aware that he couldn't control that intellect well enough to keep it from convincing him a fake "illness" was a real, physical one must have been devastating.  Chuck could deal with his body letting him down, but not his mind.  

[Eulipian 5k]

9 hours ago, rue721 said:

10 hours ago, SnarkyTart said:

Unable to stop what he believed was the true source of his misery, the electricity, he had no choice but to kill himself to escape the torture of it.

Yes, I think that Chuck was genuinely in a lot of pain. All the characters kept saying that even though the allergy wasn't real, Chuck's pain was real. Whether he understood that the pain was from something other than an allergy to electricity, though, who knows.

This shows the cliff Chuck fell off in a short time. He had been carefully documenting how the pain was decreasing and reporting it to Dr Cruz. So why now would this stray current that was not even enough to light a bulb, suddenly be enough to keep him awake? It's not like there was a CRT TV screen blasting electrons at him. He survived that long walk to the pay phone earlier  (in the space blanket, without medication) and now he's driven to the point of suicide?

This was a catastrophic relapse, (understatement maximus). Maybe the cold open was a memory Chuck was having during his downward spiral, not just a flashback.

[SunnyBeBe]

I knew that Chuck was WAAAAY out of touch with reality when he said during his brief positive moment that he couldn't wait to get back into the courtroom litigating......really?  Most attorneys his age are not still in that stage.  The younger, more energetic associates are doing most of that. Litigating is VERY demanding work, stressful, time consuming and requires more than what I think Chuck could provide.  

[Eulipian 5k]

35 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

8 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Are you old enough to remember the card catalog at the library?  Direct digital searching is no comparison to the adventure of looking through the card catalog.

I got my library degree just on the cusp of digital catalogs. I miss the serendipitous finds when flipping through the cards.

All that time mastering the Dewey Decimal System;, gone the way of the buggy whip and cassettes?

[ShadowFacts]

43 minutes ago, Ronin Jackson said:

One thing this episode established very well is why Jimmy is going to change his name to Saul. Before this episode that aspect of the story was unclear. But this episode established enough that to make the name change make sense. It's still a mystery how Chuck's death will affect Jimmy but changing his name could work as both a rebuke and a way to honor what Jimmy might believe would be Chuck's wish. It's also established that the name of Jimmy McGill is now tarnished, which also establishes why Saul will eventually tap into the type of clientele that eventually becomes his base (criminals are not going to be bothered by things the elderly might)). Going back to an earlier episode-- I wonder if changing his name will be a way for him to skirt around the insurance rate hikes as well..

I just don't see how he can skirt anything when his face is all over the place -- bus benches, t.v. commercials, billboards.  Not to mention the legal community of Albuquerque has him on their radar.

 

4 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

This was a catastrophic relapse, (understatement maximus). Maybe the cold open was a memory Chuck was having during his downward spiral, not just a flashback.

Yes, catastrophic, but I wouldn't even call it a relapse.  Dr. Cruz cautioned him that he was going too fast and high with his expectations, that it could take years.  He was only a few weeks into treatment, it seems, and that was barely scratching the surface of his serious illness.  The shock of "you win" from Howard tore off the veneer of progress or wellness.  He just had what was most important in his life blown up in his face and it was way too much for a person as sick as him to process alone.  If he had kept his appointment with Dr. Cruz, things might have ended differently.  His suicidal ideation might have passed and she might have guided him into more intense treatment. 

[Bryce Lynch]

It was interesting how Chuck committed suicide (apparently) in a way that could look like an accident.  I wonder if he had any special motivation for doing it that way.  Being burned in a fire has to be one of the most painful or horrifying ways to kill oneself, so it makes me wonder if it was so important that he make it look like an accident, or at least not a clear suicide, that he was willing to endure that pain.  Could he have a life insurance policy?  Did he not want the world to know he took his own life?

One real longshot I thought of was maybe he was trying to frame Jimmy.  Jimmy did threaten to burn the house down  when he busted into Chuck's house.   I think this is very unlikely, though.  

[Jextella]

3 hours ago, BetyBee said:

"Chuck roast" (heard on Rob Has a Podcast).

I was a bit (just a bit) disappointed.  It was a good episode, with a lot happening, but I can't believe that Jimmy still hasn't slipped into Saul.  Of course there is the cliffhanger of how everyone will react to Chuck's death and that Gus appears to be on to Nacho.  I want Nacho to be safe, but it is clear that Gus wants to keep Hector alive for him (and no one else) to torture.  I hope that Nacho will survive.  I'll definitely be watching, but I didn't find this finale completely satisfying.  As I watched the very long scene of Chuck destroying his awesome house, I surprised myself by saying "effing loon" a couple of times.  I do have empathy for mental illness, but Chuck is not a good person under all of that.  That was clearly demonstrated by his dismissal of Jimmy early in the episode.  Wearing the space blanket seems to be Chuck wanting this to look like an accidental death so that he retains his dignity, but what would a fire inspector make of the smashed and destroyed electric meter?  Will they think that was a result of the fire?  I love Kim and I see only sadness ahead for Kim and Jimmy.  Francesca was awesome - I wonder what makes her break bad to become a less than awesome admin assistant?  Maybe going back to the DMV makes her break bad.  

Chuck roast.  :)

I used to think we'd see a flip switch or something between Jimmy and Saul, but now I'm not sure that is necessary.   I tend to think we won't see much of a change from what we've seen of Jimmy thus far.  The only thing that will change is the exterior, i.e. a shift in client base.   It's kinda like Chuck said.   Be who you are.

Chuck must have gone through a ringer of some sort to become as mentally incapacitated as he was.  I really, REALLY hope we find out what was at the root.  I'm no pro but given how extreme his illness was, I can't help but think it came on as a response to something just as extreme. Kinda a PTSD situation of some sort perhaps.  Given that it seemed to escalate when Jimmy-stress was involved, the cause is likely something having to do with the family unit.  It would be odd for such an illness to develop out of the blue.  (and the devil in me thinks the time spent in the tent with Chuck reading to Jimmy could have been a means of escaping what was going on inside the house).

Francesca was awesome.  She' has to be back!

[smorbie]

2 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

My preference from the beginning of the show and what I was expecting was more Saul, not Jimmy, with new and interesting characters around him based on his law practice we saw in Breaking Bad. 

If they wanted to do a bit of a prequel for a season or two, OK, but it seems the whole show is a prequel to Breaking Bad, which isn't really what I wanted to see.  Plus this is basically becoming a rehash of Breaking Bad, how does a good character become more dubious and "bad" or "slimy" or however you want to describe Saul.  They did that show already in Breaking Bad. 

That has been my criticism of the show from the beginning, though it seems I am in the minority.  I enjoy the show.  I find it interesting.  I just think Saul Goodman is a much more enjoyable and interesting character to watch than Jimmy McGill. 

Hmmm...interesting perspective.  I'm more interested in the actual transformation myself.  

[Bryce Lynch]

13 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I just don't see how he can skirt anything when his face is all over the place -- bus benches, t.v. commercials, billboards.  Not to mention the legal community of Albuquerque has him on their radar.

 

Yes, catastrophic, but I wouldn't even call it a relapse.  Dr. Cruz cautioned him that he was going too fast and high with his expectations, that it could take years.  He was only a few weeks into treatment, it seems, and that was barely scratching the surface of his serious illness.  The shock of "you win" from Howard tore off the veneer of progress or wellness.  He just had what was most important in his life blown up in his face and it was way too much for a person as sick as him to process alone.  If he had kept his appointment with Dr. Cruz, things might have ended differently.  His suicidal ideation might have passed and she might have guided him into more intense treatment. 

I totally agree, Jimmy is not going to fool the Bar or any insurance company by changing his name.  I think the name change is simply rebranding.  Another possibility could be that Howard might settle with Jimmy on all or some of Chuck's share of the firm (assuming Jimmy is an heir) on the condition that he stop practicing under the McGill name.

I wonder if HHM will stay HHM or drop or replace the M.  

Edited June 21, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Bryce Lynch]

23 hours ago, Broderbits said:

Michael McKean has said in a NYTimes interview that Chuck is definitely dead, but he might be back next season in flashbacks. Of course, the show runners can always change their minds.

I think what Jimmy did for Irene was very sweet; he sacrificed a quick payday and his own reputation with the elders so that she could have her (fair-weather) friends back. He embraced his inner con-man to help someone else, when he could have just shrugged and walked away.

While it seemed pretty certain Chuck was dead, it seems odd that the actors and crew would be spoiling their show's cliffhanger.  If they are going to blab about Chuck's fate, why not just show that he was dead in the finale?

[smorbie]

10 hours ago, Dobian said:

Kudos to the kid who played young Chuck.  When I heard him reading to Jimmy in the tent I knew it wasn't present day Chuck, but it sounded exactly like him.  Great job picking up on the cadence and speech patterns.

I agree.  And I'm glad you brought that up because it reminded me of something.  We've had very little exposure to how Chuck treated Jimmy when the child was growing up.  But from what we've seen it appears to me to that Chuck adored him.  He's talked about reading to his little brother before.  And setting up a tent to spend the night with him outside was such a loving thing to do.  He was most certainly at an age where being with friends or studying would have been much more interesting to him.  Yet, there he was reading to Jimmy while sitting in a tent.  It was sweet and it brought a tear to my eye.

Something happened there.  

And, yes, the kid who played him was certainly good.

[SunnyBeBe]

I don't think that Jimmy would try to fool people who already know who he is.  They'll likely always think of him as Jimmy.   I suppose that people who already know him, just think, that's the old Jimmy, new Saul.  What a nut or what a gutsy move.  Those that don't know Jimmy, just call him Saul and move on.  And if someone told them, so what? They just think he had his reasons.  If he's good, he'll do some business.  What goes a long way with with being an attorney is returning phone calls and showing that you are REALLY working on the client's case.  I  think Jimmy, I mean Saul,  will do both.  Or, maybe, there's another ingenious plan that we don't see coming. 

 

Oh, Saul has the extra talent of not being played.  That might come in handy. 

Edited June 21, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[ShadowFacts]

13 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It was interesting how Chuck committed suicide (apparently) in a way that could look like an accident.  I wonder if he had any special motivation for doing it that way.  Being burned in a fire has to be one of the most painful or horrifying ways to kill oneself, so it makes me wonder if it was so important that he make it look like an accident, or at least not a clear suicide, that he was willing to endure that pain.  Could he have a life insurance policy?  Did he not want the world to know he took his own life?

One real longshot I thought of was maybe he was trying to frame Jimmy.  Jimmy did threaten to burn the house down  when he busted into Chuck's house.   I think this is very unlikely, though.  

I think he wasn't thinking clearly at all.  He looked maniacal tearing his house apart, and that wasn't to stage a scene, he really was going to the nth degree to find the source.  Jimmy will know this destruction wasn't the result of a fire if he ever visits the burned out house.  I think it's key that they showed Chuck cancel his appointment and if Jimmy finds out about that, he'll begin thinking this is no accident. 

 

6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

While it seemed pretty certain Chuck was dead, it seems odd that the actors and crew would be spoiling their show's cliffhanger.  If they are going to blab about Chuck's fate, why not just show that he was dead in the finale?

Maybe because it's more dramatic to have it end with Chuck looking completely descended into madness, then show the flames rapidly spreading, than to have a neighbor call 911 and the firefighters dragging out Chuck's lifeless body.  Maybe they'll open the next season with that, or maybe have a time jump.

[smorbie]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

When she kept Jimmy from throwing out the rolodex of his elderly clients, it made me think that's the direction she'd go in

Me, too.  And that's a good idea.  It's a under served population, and would fit her idealistic goals.  

My son was like that when he became a lawyer.  He knows the money is in corporate law, but he has a heart for service (like his mom).  He works in the Guardian ad litem office and he's happy there.  He knows the work he does is important.

35 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

All that time mastering the Dewey Decimal System;, gone the way of the buggy whip and cassettes?

And shorthand!  How I labored over those doodles.

[shapeshifter]

27 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

All that time mastering the Dewey Decimal System;, gone the way of the buggy whip and cassettes?

Well, there are still a lot of print books on shelves that are arranged and located using Dewey or LC.

 

10 hours ago, Dobian said:

Kudos to the kid who played young Chuck.  When I heard him reading to Jimmy in the tent I knew it wasn't present day Chuck, but it sounded exactly like him.  Great job picking up on the cadence and speech patterns....

I wondered if they actually dubbed Chuck/Michael McKeane's voice for the scene.

 

Is there any chance that the space blanket would prevent Chuck from being burned? There's still be smoke inhalation, of course, which is what causes most deaths in those situations.

[Bryce Lynch]

39 minutes ago, smorbie said:

Me, too.  And that's a good idea.  It's a under served population, and would fit her idealistic goals.  

My son was like that when he became a lawyer.  He knows the money is in corporate law, but he has a heart for service (like his mom).  He works in the Guardian ad litem office and he's happy there.  He knows the work he does is important.

Kim seemed to have a way with the geezers when she did Jimmy's wills.  She was very patient in explaining that the yard and the lily pond would be included as part of the house, but agreeing to mention them in the will to prevent some dirty judge from playing tricks. :)

And I bet, unlike the fashion police in this forum, the old folks LOVE Kim's ponytail. :)

Edited June 21, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Juliegirlj]

RIP Chuck.... I don't see them doing a fake out and having Chuck survive. What then? More of him trying to get well, or even worse-long term hospitalization?! If we do see Chuck again ( and we probably will), it will be in flashbacks. 

I don't think Jimmy will blame Howard at all for Chuck's demise. Jimmy had a hand in it just as much. Ultimately the only person responsible for Chuck's downfall is Chuck. 

Kim joining Howard at the firm makes sense for the storyline. 

I have a feeling Chuck telling Jimmy that he destroys everyone around him may become a self fulfilling prophecy. 

Does Gus hire Nacho at some point? 

[smorbie]

35 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I just don't see how he can skirt anything when his face is all over the place -- bus benches, t.v. commercials, billboards.  Not to mention the legal community of Albuquerque has him on their radar.

 

Yes, catastrophic, but I wouldn't even call it a relapse.  Dr. Cruz cautioned him that he was going too fast and high with his expectations, that it could take years.  He was only a few weeks into treatment, it seems, and that was barely scratching the surface of his serious illness.  The shock of "you win" from Howard tore off the veneer of progress or wellness.  He just had what was most important in his life blown up in his face and it was way too much for a person as sick as him to process alone.  If he had kept his appointment with Dr. Cruz, things might have ended differently.  His suicidal ideation might have passed and she might have guided him into more intense treatment. 

I agree about Chuck.  There is such a rush for the client when he seems to just get better.  But, it's a false hope.  There was a LOT of work to be done, and Chuck was proving it by the minute with the way he was handling things, threatening to sue everybody for everything.  

And with his last words, he condemned the only person left in the world who still really loved him.

[SoothingDave]

On 6/20/2017 at 10:31 AM, ghoulina said:

I agree. I don't see anything that needs to be called out. People sometimes change their names, actors do it all the time. I never really saw Jimmy becoming Saul as him hiding something. I just saw it as him taking on a new persona. 

And remember, Saul told Walter White that he was really a McGill when he was there as Badger's "uncle."  So it's not like Saul was keeping it a big secret from people.  This was his first meeting with Badger's "uncle."

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

RIP Chuck.... I don't see them doing a fake out and having Chuck survive. What then? More of him trying to get well, or even worse-long term hospitalization?! If we do see Chuck again ( and we probably will), it will be in flashbacks. 

I don't think Jimmy will blame Howard at all for Chuck's demise. Jimmy had a hand in it just as much. Ultimately the only person responsible for Chuck's downfall is Chuck. 

Kim joining Howard at the firm makes sense for the storyline. 

I have a feeling Chuck telling Jimmy that he destroys everyone around him may become a self fulfilling prophecy. 

Does Gus hire Nacho at some point? 

I wonder how much the various characters (Jimmy, Howard and Kim) will blame themselves for Chuck's death.  They all played a part in him ending up where he ended up.  Kim seems to have more of a conscience than the other 2 combined, so I think it might affect her the most, though she played the smallest role.  

Edited June 21, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[smorbie]

31 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It was interesting how Chuck committed suicide (apparently) in a way that could look like an accident.  I wonder if he had any special motivation for doing it that way.  Being burned in a fire has to be one of the most painful or horrifying ways to kill oneself, so it makes me wonder if it was so important that he make it look like an accident, or at least not a clear suicide, that he was willing to endure that pain.  Could he have a life insurance policy?  Did he not want the world to know he took his own life?

One real longshot I thought of was maybe he was trying to frame Jimmy.  Jimmy did threaten to burn the house down  when he busted into Chuck's house.   I think this is very unlikely, though.  

I think in the end he wasn't thinking clearly enough to call it suicide.  He was just kicking the table and waiting for the lantern to turn over rather than actively picking it up and dropping it.  It's kind of like playing Russian Roulette with just yourself and having loaded the gun with a bullet that you picked up randomly and might have been a blank.  He wanted to die, but he didn't want to be consciously responsible for it.  It was like, "well, I'm just kicking the table and if the lantern were to accidentally fall over....."

10 hours ago, Dobian said:

I liked Howard this episode.  Sending Chuck packing even at great personal loss to himself took guts

This.

For everyone who thinks Howard is just an empty suit, this.  You are absolutely right.  And it showed Chuck what Howard thought of him.  He was willing to take out personal loans to get rid of him.

And he STILL managed to keep the firm intact.  Good job, Howard.  Your dad would be proud.

[Adiba]

Even though I wanted to see Chuck go down in flames, I wanted it figuratively, not literally. While I detested many things Chuck did, I couldn't help but say "No, Chuck, don't do it" to the TV when he was kicking the lantern.  Although it is highly unlikely that he he not dead-- what would they do with the character, anyway? Having Chuck a lonely man in a burn unit would not really be that interesting, I guess.

[smorbie]

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

A horrific way to die, and I actually know someone who did that, in her ca

I'm sorry that happened to someone you know.  That has to be a painful thing to live with.

[PrincessSteel]

9 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Are you old enough to remember the card catalog at the library?  Direct digital searching is no comparison to the adventure of looking through the card catalog.

Indeed I am. And I recall all too well the disappointment when the book I wanted wasn't on the shelf. But those times made it more exciting when the book became available. BCS is set in the not very distant past; amazing how one little detail from our shared past is so evocative.