S03.E10: Lantern

[Bama]

I totally thought Hector was going to ring the red bell on the desk during the scene with Nacho's dad.

I even said out loud "Ring the bell on your way out, Tio!"

[Bryce Lynch]

35 minutes ago, Dev F said:

It wasn't just about him relapsing, though. It was also a counterpoint to all those drawn-out scenes earlier in the season, when Chuck or Mike would triumph through clear-eyed deliberation and diligent labor while Jimmy fucked everything up by charging down the path of least resistance without thinking. Here we see the dark mirror of that: whereas Jimmy is able to plow through adversity by doing one rash thing after another without stopping to consider the consequences, Chuck is always sure he knows exactly where he's headed and exactly what he needs to do to get there, and that certainty is ultimately what dooms him. On a certain level, Chuck knows he's in a downward spiral, so he goes step by step through everything he needs to do to spiral downward, until finally he's kicking at his lantern over and over and over until it (most likely) kills him.

We know from Breaking Bad that Gus doesn't want Hector to die until he knows and acknowledges that Gus has beaten him. I'd bet that Gus was trying in earnest to revive him -- and probably none too happy that Nacho probably had something to do with his collapse.

In the end, I think Gus will be thrilled with how Nacho's pill switch turned out.  I don't think Gus could have imagined a better outcome than Hector being alive, but confined to a wheelchair and unable to speak or do much of anything.

[Cthulhudrew]

As much as I dislike Chuck as a character, watching his sudden devolution into an even more broken state of mind than he was in before the therapy was uncomfortable to watch. He pushed everything away from him that had meaning, even as he worked his way back to a state of health where he could participate in life again, and just had no reason to go on. I don't know if it was suicide, but I think it would be pretty terrible if the writers do manage to keep him around after this.

[Armchair Critic]

Maybe I am reading too much into it and Kim just wants to relax a little bit, but I am wondering if Kim is afraid to make another mistake and that is going to turn into a problem for her.

[zenarcher]

When Jimmy was picking up all of Kim's papers at the accident scene I was thinking he'd be wanting to finagle a way to get community service credit for it. 

[Quilt Fairy]

Gus was definitely doing "real" CPR.  There's no one there who matters, just Hector's henchmen, and they sure didn't jump to help him.  If Gus hadn't intervened and told them to call 911, I could easily see all of them stand there and watch Hector die.

Chuck's search for the stray current reminds me of a dream I have occasionally where something is beeping and I pull the plug on everything that could possibly beep but it doesn't stop and then I start taking batteries out of stuff but it doesn't stop and then I start throwing things out of the house but the beeping just will.  Not. STOP!  And then I wake up and realize it's the alarm clock that's been going off for 15 minutes.

I like this show, but this season was just too slow.  It's only 10 episodes a year, more has to happen.

Peter Gould said on Talking Saul that they really like Michael McKean and they haven't even started on Season 4 and there're always the possibility of flashbacks.  Vince Gilligan also pointed out that we know there's no Kim Wexler in BB so at some point she's going to have to leave Jimmy.  I've had enough of Chuck (did any of us realize how important his role in this show would become?) but I will hate to see Rhea Seehorn and her perky pony-tail leave.

I was also expecting a Cinnabon scene.  I thought we had more than one a season.  And the one they did have was that cliff-hanger with Gene passing out.  I would like to see where that goes.

[Jextella]

On 6/20/2017 at 0:01 AM, Diamond Dog said:

My brother said something similar to me once. It was devastating. I'm cordial to him because my parents are still alive, but our relationship with each other will never recover. 

I get it.  I am so intrigued by the Chuck vs. Jimmy story - probably in part because I can relate to it on a few levels.  The sibling thing is one.   There are 3 in our family.  None of us are super close, but of the 3, I'm the odd-man out for sure.  Not a cool place to be.

The other thing is that I relate to some of the unfortunate traits of both Chuck and Jimmy - although not the slipping one!  Chuck's OCD is relatable for sure.  I have bouts on occassion.  I've also known some who have it really bad.  It can be paralyzing.   I also see some parallels with addiction.   I get how some might think death is the only way to be free from whatever it is that has taken hold.

I thought the writers, actor, and director did a phenomenal job conveying how that descent might look and feel.   It was really well done.   I'm not in the camp that found it slow, etc.  I'm the opposite.  Pacing was perfect and the story compelling.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Jextella

[PrincessSteel]

Despite the deliberate pace of this series, that was riveting! So much so, in fact, that I did not notice the absence of my beloved Mike until posters here pointed it out. I do believe that Gus is on to Nacho, but that's only because Gus notices every damn thing. The acting in this show is so freaking good that, at first, I totally bought the bit with Jimmy's former Davis & Main babysitter, even though I knew that Jimmy was cooking something up to turn things around for Irene. Get better, Kim! And hurry back, BCS. I cannot wait to revel in Season 4.

[Bannon]

I've never felt sorry for Chuck, but seeing him fully devolve into an angry, bitter, old man, who has destroyed every relationship he has ever had, because he is driven completely mad by the fact that he has completely lost any ability to control other people, was another example of how this show is among the saddest I've ever watched.

I'm really interested in how the writers end Kim's relationship with Jimmy

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, TVFan17 said:

I saw that.  I'm watching it now.  In fact, when that was said I was wondering how long we'd have to wait for the 4th season.  It took a full year from when Season 2 ended for Season 3 to begin.  I dread having to wait 12 months again.

Since the show hasn't been renewed yet for the fourth season, I think it'll be at least 12 months.

 

29 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

Maybe I am reading too much into it and Kim just wants to relax a little bit, but I am wondering if Kim is afraid to make another mistake and that is going to turn into a problem for her.

I think she realized she couldn't continue like she had been.  Jimmy proposing a sublet let her off the hook a bit and so decided she was going to take that time.  I do wonder what the next season will bring her since she seemed done with oil and Mesa Verde.

5 minutes ago, Diamond Dog said:

Kim's words may have finally sunk in. 

Probably but I do wonder when his will sink in with her.  He is dealing with his McGill problem.  Kimmy isn't.  In fact, step by step, she's letting herself be pulled in.  For instance, based on their conversation in this episode, it sounds like Jimmy fessed up to what he did to Irene in order to bring about the settlement.  She did see him trying to get out of it but he sank pretty low and I bet she had to justify her continued relationship.   I hope Kim makes it out alive. I'd hate for Saul to be brought on by another death (assuming Chuck dies).  So the only question remains is whether Kim decides to finally let go of him because she eventually gets sick of the pattern Chuck referred to of bad deed, hurt people and then remorse or if Jimmy stops that pattern, doesn't decide to make amends for his bad deeds and Kim leaves.  Does she create Saul or does Saul end up costing Jimmy Kim?

So Chuck probably is dead.  Story wise, it makes sense.  Cast wise, it makes sense given how many druggie people have been coming on. It has built to something catastrophic altering the course of Jimmy's life.  I don't think, at this point, Chuck could do anything emotionally to Jimmy that would have the impact of the first season's revelation that it was Chuck keeping Jimmy out of HHM.  So completely losing him would make sense.  But man, Michael McKean was amazing on this show, especially this season. With such a great cast, there was no one I loved to see work as much as I loved to watch him play Chuck. 

[PrincessSteel]

6 minutes ago, Diamond Dog said:

Oh yeah, I forgot one other thing! The scene in Blockbuster brought back great memories for me. I actually miss the process of going to pick out a DVD at a store. There use to be a Mom n' Pop video store near my apartment, and it was great to browse, meet other people there, and chit chat about films, and get suggestions.   Now, I have to go to IMDb. Not the same.  :-(

Oh, for sure! I do miss trips to Blockbuster with my kids when they were wee ones. So exciting! So many possibilities! Are we missing something with on-demand entertainment? Shouldn't we have to exert ourselves even a little bit? What's next, prepared food delivered directly to your door? Oh, wait...

[TVFan17]

3 minutes ago, Diamond Dog said:

Oh yeah, I forgot one other thing! The scene in Blockbuster brought back great memories for me. I actually miss the process of going to pick out a DVD at a store. There use to be a Mom n' Pop video store near my apartment, and it was great to browse, meet other people there, and chit chat about films, and get suggestions.   Now, I have to go to IMDb. Not the same.  :-(

It was kind of fun to go into Blockbuster after work on a Friday night, and load up on movies to watch over the weekend -- renting the ones that I wanted (if they were in stock) and finding some sort of gem that I never knew about.   The process of renting was fun, but I always ended up with copies that were glitchy or overused, and when I would try to return them in the overnight slot, it was backed up with other people's returns and nothing would fit!  LOL  

[Lonesome Rhodes]

"Made it, Ma!  Top o' the world!!!!!"*  This is the callback I experienced with the suicide by fire was shown.  In Talking Saul Gould made it very clear that the intention is that Chuck is most sincerely dead.  He was also insistent (as was Fabian (Howard)) that we would see Chuck in flashback form.

That final scene with Jimmy was the best representation that the true opposite of love is indifference I've ever seen.  I agree with Gould's observation that Chuck absolutely did care about Jimmy, albeit in a negative as all heck manner.  To me, that means Chuck said it to hurt Jimmy, not to drive him away.  I think Chuck saw Jimmy as a cockroach - nothing he said or did would ever allow him to be rid of Jimmy.  True tragedy, it is.  Great storytelling to begin the Chuck denouement ep with the campfire scene where big brother Chuck quite obviously loved his little brother Jimmy, who idolized his big brother.

I also believe there were significant character missteps with Jimmy and Kim.  Jimmy was too far gone to recant the Irene treachery and forfeit the million dollars in-hand.  The near-death of Kim would only have cemented in Jimmy that he could never risk losing her because of money.  Kim would never have thrown away the second chance with Gatwood.  She worked far too long and endured much too much to pack it in before becoming comfortable materially.  She would figure out pretty quickly that the difference she could make as an in-demand corporate attorney earning hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollar would be exponentially greater than if she basically became a public defender.  Gould was very clear about Kim on a couple of fronts.  One of these is they had no idea how much they would love Rhea's Kim.   Given her skittish about faces a few times, it appears they are making it up as they go along.  

The other serious misgiving I have was cemented by the farewell to Chuck at HHM.  That is a big firm.  All those partners and associates?  $8 million would be easily handled.  Easily.  Three handy dandy payments?  A piece of cake.  As it was, Chuck was receiving well north of $500K in annual compensation.  Another $50K or so in assistants/paralegals devoted to his needs?  Those liabilities are vanished.

Overall, I loved this season and I love this show.  A lot.  I cannot wait until we see the Cinnabon at the mall again.  Can. Not. Wait.

*Cody Jarret's (Jimmy Cagney) final words atop the burning gas depot in White Heat.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Lonesome Rhodes

[Bannon]

I also suspect that Gus ends up killing Nacho, or having him killed, because Gus decides that if Nacho would betray Salamanca, he would betray Gus, even factoring what a jerk Salamanca is.

[Ronin Jackson]

2 hours ago, zibnchy said:

What do we think is up for next season?

My prediction is next season, after a Gene teaser, will open with a flashback of Jimmy and Chuck, with Michael McKean back in his role at least one more time. Jimmy went a long way towards Saul this season, but Jimmy made a comeback in the season finale. He's not quite all the way Saul yet, so there's still more story to tell there. Chuck's death will be a big part of that I imagine. I'm not going to predict just how Jimmy will react. Will he feel guilt that he may have driven his brother to suicide? Will he feel that Chuck brought all of it on himself? A good bit of both perhaps? I would think another part of what turns Jimmy all the way Saul is whatever happens with his relationship with Kim. There's a whole story there and I don't think these writers will rush it. But it sure seems like Kim and Jimmy will have to drift a long way apart before Jimmy can become Saul.

I'm thinking that moment when Jimmy becomes Saul  Goodman, may still be many episodes off. Maybe even a whole season. It's probably been about a month tops since Jimmy had his law license suspended. Eleven months can be a long time in the Breaking Bad/Saul universe. Breaking Bad took four plus seasons to cover a years time. There was only one notable time jump at the end of the series (not counting various flashbacks/flashforwords). There could be a time jump next season with Saul but I think there's still a lot of things that need to happen in the story first.

[TVFan17]

Assuming that BCS is renewed for Season 4 (it would be a sad day if it were not renewed, as Gilligan and Gould probably only plan to run it for 5 or 6 seasons at most anyway), and assuming that Chuck is either dead or severely injured and incapacitated and then sent away somewhere...... I wonder if Jimmy will just start unabashedly acting out and doing a lot of questionable, reckless things out of guilt and anger over Chuck.  Kim would see the downward spiral, and when he does something really bad in a moment of foolishness and crosses a line, she leaves him to save her own sanity and integrity. 

Then Jimmy could go full Saul because he would have lost both his brother and the woman he loves.  He will have no one, and absolutely nothing to lose, at that point.   Francesca will be his only friend!

We've seen Jimmy teetering on the edge of turning full Saul, and then pulling himself back just in time.  At some point that will stop and he will just jump off the cliff.

[LotusFlower]

44 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I also suspect that Gus ends up killing Nacho, or having him killed, because Gus decides that if Nacho would betray Salamanca, he would betray Gus, even factoring what a jerk Salamanca is.

IDK, I don't think so - I get the feeling Nacho is the kind of person Gus respects, similar to Mike.  I thought it was so interesting, and so in character, when Mike suspected Gus would want a cut of his money (from last week's ep.), and Gus said no, he would never take money away from his family.  What crime boss says that?!  Nacho only wanted Hector dead when his father's life was in peril, which might be something Gus understands.  I loved the look Giancarlo gave Nacho to end the scene -- I can't wait to see where this storyline goes.

[Sentient Meat]

I've gone back and forth on Howard throughout the season and the series and although he had me back on his side when he dressed down Chuck, he lost me again when he publicly humiliated a mentally ill man in front of his law firm.  Although Howard is often right, he has a vicious streak that flared up the last time he confronted Jimmy, Kim and now with Chuck.  He always has the veneer of professional civility but deep down he's petty, vindictive and embodies the polar opposite principles of Atticus Finch.  He's the most dangerous of them all because he seems good when he really isn't.

[knaankos]

3 hours ago, TVFan17 said:

I think that we are supposed to think that Chuck is dead.  I have my doubts, though.  He could get out of the burning house.

He's 100% dead. There would be no purpose to him surviving. His story is at an end. The show would take a million steps backwards if he was in another season 

[PeterPirate]

I've always liked Howard (as lawyers go). His high point was when he caved in and told Kim the truth behind Jimmy not getting an office at HHM for the Sandpiper case.   I am very glad about the way he solved his problem with the McGill brothers, although it's hard to see what role he will have in the future.  

I wonder if we'll ever find out the underlying reason for Chuck's psychological problems.

 

1 hour ago, TVFan17 said:

Assuming that BCS is renewed for Season 4 (it would be a sad day if it were not renewed, as Gilligan and Gould probably only plan to run it for 5 or 6 seasons at most anyway), and assuming that Chuck is either dead or severely injured and incapacitated and then sent away somewhere...... I wonder if Jimmy will just start unabashedly acting out and doing a lot of questionable, reckless things out of guilt and anger over Chuck.  Kim would see the downward spiral, and when he does something really bad in a moment of foolishness and crosses a line, she leaves him to save her own sanity and integrity. 

This makes sense to me.  Jimmy's guilt pangs over Irene surprised me, quite frankly, but it stands to reason the same psychological mechanism will kick in as long as Kim is around.  

Kim is all kinds of awesome.  

Edited June 20, 2017 by PeterPirate

[solea]

3 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

You're right, they just said on Talking Saul it was based on that.

When Chuck was tearing up his house it made me think of "The Yellow Wallpaper".  (I've never seen "The Conversation ".

[knaankos]

I don't understand why Jimmy forfeited the Sand Piper money to amend things with Irene. It feels like a massive step back in the story.

Remember when he didn't take any money from that suitcase in season 1 and then he tells Mike he will never do that again? Well seems like he did it again. The conversion to Saul, everything done this season seems like it all meant nothing by his actions this episode. So does that mean that it'll be Chuck's death that sets him toward Saul eventually? If so, then this season was a complete waste. One big stall. 

[Bama]

Jimmy didn't forfeit his Sandpiper money - he just delayed it.

He'll still get his cut - maybe even more if they settle for or get awarded a larger amount than is currently on the table.  He just won't get it now.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Bama

[TVFan17]

1 hour ago, knaankos said:

He's 100% dead. There would be no purpose to him surviving. His story is at an end. The show would take a million steps backwards if he was in another season 

Or maybe it could be handled in a smart way that we hadn't considered, that wouldn't be taking a million steps backward?

Personally, I think you're probably right and that he is dead -- simply because I think Chuck's story has been building up to something catastrophic happening since the start of the series -- but Chuck doesn't have to be dead for his story on the show to come to an end right now, and for it to have an irreparable effect on Jimmy/Saul.  He could get out on his own, or somehow be rescued (remember, the fire just started -- we did not see the entire house erupt in flames yet), and then sent away to a mental hospital for years, or he could just slip into some sort of comatose or vegetative state where no one can communicate with him anymore.  He could be permanently disfigured.   There are several options for Chuck between being a fully functional living person and dying, if that makes sense.  It doesn't necessarily have to be black or white.    I have watched Talking Saul twice now, and, to me, Peter Gould really sounds like he is not completely sure what is happening with Chuck just yet.    There is no reason for them to let us think that he may or may not be dead if they know he is actually dead.  It was left a bit ambiguous for a reason.

Spoiler

I won't say which show -- because I don't know who else in this thread watches certain other shows, and I don't want to spoil anything -- but a main character on another show died recently, and the way it happened meant that we didn't actually see the dead body.   We were left to assume the death occurred.  When the actor was asked if the character was really gone, the actor replied that he is gone/dead.  The way it was shot left people with some uncertainty -- and the way the supposed Chuck death was filmed left uncertainty too. 

I think that kind of thing is deliberate, because they were/are not exactly sure what to do with Chuck yet.  Gould implied they are still keeping Michael McKean around in some capacity, and that they can still put him in flashbacks IF Chuck is dead.  So if he is still on the payroll/under contract, I guess they now have to decide (as they map out Season 4) whether it makes any sense to keep Chuck alive for any reason, or kill him and just see him in flashbacks (which would be redundant and annoying after a while).

In TV, it's certainly not often that someone escapes a building that's on fire, alive and in one piece.... but it does happen from time to time.

Edited June 20, 2017 by TVFan17

[dwmarch]

I think Chuck is dead.

Chuck's last legal battle was a humiliating defeat in front of the bar, punked by a cell phone battery of all things. His pride was deeply wounded and he wanted to prove he was every bit the lawyer he used to be before his illness. But Howard wouldn't let him play. So now Chuck has to prove himself twice as much, both to his firm and to the legal community at large. He gears up for a fight, fends off his illness to the point where even he barely notices it and gets ready to reclaim his good name. This is the case Chuck was born for, the ultimate injustice that he was sure he could fix! But Howard deflates him by buying out, going into personal debt to do so (and how much do you have to hate someone to pay them millions out of your own pocket to make them go away?!?!). Chuck has no brother, no friends, no job, no purpose and no way to bring himself back up to where he once was. So he tells Jimmy off and commits suicide.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Based on "Talking Saul," I don't think the show runners are 100% sure.  They haven't started to plot the fourth season yet.

I got the impression that Chuck is dead.  They sounded like they were saying goodbye to McKean.

[queenanne]

2 hours ago, Bama said:

Jimmy didn't forfeit his Sandpiper money - he just delayed it.

He'll still get his cut - maybe even more if they settle for or get awarded a larger amount than is currently on the table.  He just won't get it now.

Aren't they kind of doing a big glossing over the fact that Erin could, well I don't know, but doesn't it seem likely that with her evidence, Davis & Main could find a way so that Jimmy isn't entitled to any money at all?  I'm pretty sure coercion isn't legal.  

Still digesting a lot of what happened but I have to say I love the touch that Gus performs and knows CPR, because of course Gus would know CPR because he has to be ready to step in to do it at a moment's notice on a customer, in his "other life" as a mild-mannered LPH manager.  

I too badly missed Mike.  

[TVFan17]

17 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

 

I thought that Chuck was going to accidentally electrocute himself too.  I thought for sure that the electric company would come in and find some easy as pie reason why the electricity was still flowing.  Sort of like when Mike tore his car apart, only to find the car tracking bug in the gas tank cap.

I think it is absolutely clear that Chuck attempted suicide.  I have seen the closing credits for two airings of this episode, and after those closing credits, a National Suicide Prevention LIfeline phone number was put on the screen.  I seriously doubt that was by accident.

 

What Chuck said about Jimmy was absolutely true, in terms of how Jimmy affects other people's lives.  Of course, what Chuck said about Jimmy, also applies to himself.

I was surprised that after the accident, that the hospital didn't want to keep Kim in the hospital for observation purposes.

He was deliberately kicking and kicking, trying to get the lantern to topple over, knowing it would ignite something in that completely trashed room.  He definitely attempted to take his own life.  Whether or not he succeeded is what we have to wait at least 12 months to find out, unfortunately!

[NeenerNeener]

Well, that last scene explains how Jimmy can advertise as "Saul Goodman" in Breaking Bad without Chuck bringing down Hell and the Bar Association on him.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, NeenerNeener said:

Well, that last scene explains how Jimmy can advertise as "Saul Goodman" in Breaking Bad without Chuck bringing down Hell and the Bar Association on him.

I don't think Chuck's death would have any impact on Jimmy's ability to advertise as Saul Goodman.  If he legally changes his name and files the proper paperwork with the bar association, he can do it.  If he does not, he can't.

[Bryce Lynch]

I am thinking that Chuck's, "I never cared about you." might end up having far less impact on Jimmy than him essentially telling him to embrace his inner bad guy.

It reminded me of Jesse Pinkman, finally giving into all the "self acceptance, not self improvement" crap the rehab counselor was pushing on the group and deciding to accept the fact that he was the bad guy 

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, TVFan17 said:

He was deliberately kicking and kicking, trying to get the lantern to topple over, knowing it would ignite something in that completely trashed room.  He definitely attempted to take his own life.  Whether or not he succeeded is what we have to wait at least 12 months to find out, unfortunately!

Unless he left a note, which I'm doubtful about given the way he was behaving, no one will know it is suicide, it will be hard to tell that it was not accidental given how he ripped up the house. 

 

4 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

I've gone back and forth on Howard throughout the season and the series and although he had me back on his side when he dressed down Chuck, he lost me again when he publicly humiliated a mentally ill man in front of his law firm.  Although Howard is often right, he has a vicious streak that flared up the last time he confronted Jimmy, Kim and now with Chuck.  He always has the veneer of professional civility but deep down he's petty, vindictive and embodies the polar opposite principles of Atticus Finch.  He's the most dangerous of them all because he seems good when he really isn't.

I agree.  Howard surprised me in that he dove into his personal fortune and took out loans to get rid of Chuck, but the total humiliation he heaped on Chuck with that theatrical farewell was just awful.  So cringeworthy.  He was taking a victory lap under cover of good manners when he knew he would be driving a stake through Chuck's heart.   There was absolutely no need to do that.

[MisterBluxom]

8 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Did Gus give Hector the real CPR or the Nacho's switched pills version of CPR? :)  The show was getting really depressing until we finally got some good news with Hector having his heart attack/stroke.

It was heartbreaking to see Chuck tear his house apart looking for the stray current.  It reminded me of the final scene of "The Conversation" when Gene Hackman tore apart his apartment looking for the bug.  I hope he survives the fire, but I am not optimistic.

Kim has gone from workaholic to slacker.  Hopefully she can find a middle ground after she recovers.

Good for Jimmy for making things right with Irene.  I guess he hasn't completely given himself over to the dark side after all.  

The Cinnabon scenes have always been in the season premieres, not the finales.

I don't think she's become a slacker. I think she just has serious doubts in her abilities (based on her line, "I could have killed someone") and she is afraid to work as a lawyer for fear of failing her clients. Hopefully this will pass soon.

[EtheltoTillie]

5 hours ago, Diamond Dog said:

Oh yeah, I forgot one other thing! The scene in Blockbuster brought back great memories for me. I actually miss the process of going to pick out a DVD at a store. There use to be a Mom n' Pop video store near my apartment, and it was great to browse, meet other people there, and chit chat about films, and get suggestions.   Now, I have to go to IMDb. Not the same.  :-(

Boy, I don't miss it at all. There was always too long a line to check out. And then you had to go back to return the film. But it was fun to see the scene. 

[MisterBluxom]

6 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Maybe I am reading too much into it and Kim just wants to relax a little bit, but I am wondering if Kim is afraid to make another mistake and that is going to turn into a problem for her.

Sorry. I missed reading your post before I posted mine.

Apologies to you.

2 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I think Chuck is dead.

Chuck's last legal battle was a humiliating defeat in front of the bar, punked by a cell phone battery of all things. His pride was deeply wounded and he wanted to prove he was every bit the lawyer he used to be before his illness. But Howard wouldn't let him play. So now Chuck has to prove himself twice as much, both to his firm and to the legal community at large. He gears up for a fight, fends off his illness to the point where even he barely notices it and gets ready to reclaim his good name. This is the case Chuck was born for, the ultimate injustice that he was sure he could fix! But Howard deflates him by buying out, going into personal debt to do so (and how much do you have to hate someone to pay them millions out of your own pocket to make them go away?!?!). Chuck has no brother, no friends, no job, no purpose and no way to bring himself back up to where he once was. So he tells Jimmy off and commits suicide.

If Chuck is dead, why would they make us suffer until next season to find out for sure?

I have no idea whether he is dead or not. But I think it's a cheap way to keep us in suspense and waiting for the next season. There were other ways they could have done that.

IMHO, the worst thing about Chuck being dead is that Howard gets off without having to pay out a dime. Damn!!!

Edited June 20, 2017 by MissBluxom

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, queenanne said:

Aren't they kind of doing a big glossing over the fact that Erin could, well I don't know, but doesn't it seem likely that with her evidence, Davis & Main could find a way so that Jimmy isn't entitled to any money at all?  I'm pretty sure coercion isn't legal.  

Jimmy was the attorney who originally signed the seniors.  He referred the case to the two larger firms in return for an agreed upon percentage of the settlement.  He is entitled to his percentage of the settlement for the work he did.

If Davis & Main wanted to go after him for his attempts to interfere with the settlement process, the result would most likely be that he would not be reinstated as a lawyer due to his having committed an ethical violation. The class action plaintiffs could also attempt to sue him for the money he deprived them of by causing the case to be settled for substantially less than it was worth, an extremely difficult thing to prove, given the risks and expenses of litigating the case.  

[Bryce Lynch]

19 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Unless he left a note, which I'm doubtful about given the way he was behaving, no one will know it is suicide, it will be hard to tell that it was not accidental given how he ripped up the house. 

 

I agree.  Howard surprised me in that he dove into his personal fortune and took out loans to get rid of Chuck, but the total humiliation he heaped on Chuck with that theatrical farewell was just awful.  So cringeworthy.  He was taking a victory lap under cover of good manners when he knew he would be driving a stake through Chuck's heart.   There was absolutely no need to do that.

I agree about Howard.  I have generally been more pro-Howard than most, but he disgusted me in the last 2 episodes.

He seemed to be fine with enabling Chuck when he was doing nothing constructive to try to overcome his mental illness.  

But, once Chuck started taking courageous steps to get better, and began to make major progress, Howard decided it was time to kick him out of the firm.

He was also full of crap when he told Jimmy that he had merely suggested he teach.  He very clearly told him that it was not a suggestion but a demand that he retire.  He put Chuck into a corner where he either had to give up the firm that he built from nothing or sue the firm, and then he acted as if Chuck had betrayed him by suing.  He reminded me of Jimmy when he was giving Howard the BS about how he thought HHM & D&M weren't serving the best interests of the client when it was obvious that Jimmy only cared about getting his money right away.  Who is Gollum, now?

I wonder how Chuck's presumed death will affect Howard.  If he has any conscience he should feel at least partially responsible 

I also wonder how it will affect Kim.  She clearly has a conscience and I would think she will feel very guilty about her role in bringing him down.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[nodorothyparker]

I think Howard needed it to finally be over.  To make very sure there was no way that Chuck couldn't find a way to twist what actually happened to give anyone any doubt that Chuck was leaving HHM or figure out any way to later worm his way back in through some legal maneuvering.  Maybe it was cruel but it was effective, and after Chuck trying and failing to strong arm him and being apparently willing to take the whole firm down to "win," it's hard to really blame him.

Assuming Chuck is dead, and until the show comes back and does something completely unexpected to show me otherwise I feel safe in assuming that, burning it all down in the end was the final act of a monster control freak trying to control the narrative.   When the poor Chuck with the mysterious illness routine stopped making everyone dance in attendance to leave their electronics in the mailbox and he had to face the reality of how everyone actually saw him, he magically set a land speed record in "getting better."  But getting better didn't give him his life or his control back.  Rebecca is still gone.  Howard was still, politely at first, going to force him out of the door and is apparently willing to go into some considerable personal debt to make that happen.  Jimmy might be suspended for the time being, but he's still Slippin' Jimmy with a law degree, the chimp with a machine gun.  Chuck is all alone.  That house "full of friends" is never going to happen.  HHM isn't even under any obligation anymore to send someone to check on him or bring him his Fuji apples.  So he shows them, by destroying his house to demonstrate that his illness came roaring back after all.  He kicks over the lantern, to effectively commit suicide but leave enough ambiguity that no one can really say with certainty that's what he did.  And now Jimmy and Howard and everyone who had a role in his personal drama has to live with that tragedy.

Someone needs to give Michael McKeon all the awards now.  The scenes of him methodically tearing apart his house were surprisingly mesmerizing where they could have been tedious.  (And were tough to watch as someone who's spent the last year and half slowly and painfully rehabbing a fixer upper.  The bookshelves.  Gah!  Don't hurt the built ins.)  The depth of the contempt and dismissal in his parting words to Jimmy that "The truth is you've never mattered that much to me" was brutal.  Despite the way Gould was toying with it on the aftershow, Chuck's story is finished.  I don't want to see any more of him.  But he's been amazing to watch.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

7 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

I've gone back and forth on Howard throughout the season and the series and although he had me back on his side when he dressed down Chuck, he lost me again when he publicly humiliated a mentally ill man in front of his law firm.  Although Howard is often right, he has a vicious streak that flared up the last time he confronted Jimmy, Kim and now with Chuck.  He always has the veneer of professional civility but deep down he's petty, vindictive and embodies the polar opposite principles of Atticus Finch.  He's the most dangerous of them all because he seems good when he really isn't.

I agree.  Howard surprised me in that he dove into his personal fortune and took out loans to get rid of Chuck, but the total humiliation he heaped on Chuck with that theatrical farewell was just awful.  So cringeworthy.  He was taking a victory lap under cover of good manners when he knew he would be driving a stake through Chuck's heart.   There was absolutely no need to do that.

I think Howard was trying to preserve the firm's reputation by making it appear that Chuck was voluntarily retiring.  Only the partners knew of the threatened lawsuits.  Even Chuck ultimately did not want to destroy what he had built once he knew that he was being bought out so he went along with the charade up to a point.

3 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I don't think she's become a slacker. I think she just has serious doubts in her abilities (based on her line, "I could have killed someone") and she is afraid to work as a lawyer for fear of failing her clients. Hopefully this will pass soon.

I think that she finally realized that if she didn't take a break, she would be caught up again in the crazy cycle of all work/no sleep, and the same thing would likely happen again.  She is giving herself time to heal, and then she will return to her simplified practice.  She still loves the law.

Edited June 20, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[ItCouldBeWorse]

24 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

MHO, the worst thing about Chuck being dead is that Howard gets off without having to pay out a dime. Damn!!!

I'm not sure that that is true.  Under the partnership contract, Chuck's estate would likely be entitled to the value of his partnership, though I assume that the firm has a life insurance policy on him that would cover a certain amount of that.  (A $9 million dollar policy would have huge annual payments, I would think.)  It is possible that the remaining amount would be small enough that the firm could pay it out (perhaps over time) without harming itself.  What do the corporate lawyers here think?

Edited June 20, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[ShadowFacts]

9 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I think Howard needed it to finally be over.  To make very sure there was no way that Chuck couldn't find a way to twist what actually happened to give anyone any doubt that Chuck was leaving HHM or figure out any way to later worm his way back in through some legal maneuvering.  Maybe it was cruel but it was effective, and after Chuck trying and failing to strong arm him and being apparently willing to take the whole firm down to "win," it's hard to really blame him.

Assuming Chuck is dead, and until the show comes back and does something completely unexpected to show me otherwise I feel safe in assuming that, burning it all down in the end was the final act of a monster control freak trying to control the narrative.   When the poor Chuck with the mysterious illness routine stopped making everyone dance in attendance to leave their electronics in the mailbox and he had to face the reality of how everyone actually saw him, he magically set a land speed record in "getting better."  But getting better didn't give him his life or his control back.  Rebecca is still gone.  Howard was still, politely at first, going to force him out of the door and is apparently willing to go into some considerable personal debt to make that happen.  Jimmy might be suspended for the time being, but he's still Slippin' Jimmy with a law degree, the chimp with a machine gun.  Chuck is all alone.  That house "full of friends" is never going to happen.  HHM isn't even under any obligation anymore to send someone to check on him or bring him his Fuji apples.  So he shows them, by destroying his house to demonstrate that his illness came roaring back after all.  He kicks over the lantern, to effectively commit suicide but leave enough ambiguity that no one can really say with certainty that's what he did.  And now Jimmy and Howard and everyone who had a role in his personal drama has to live with that tragedy.

Someone needs to give Michael McKeon all the awards now.  The scenes of him methodically tearing apart his house were surprisingly mesmerizing where they could have been tedious.  (And were to watch as someone who's spent the last year and half slowly and painfully rehabbing a fixer upper.  The bookshelves.  Gah!  Don't hurt the built ins.)  The depth of the contempt and dismissal in his parting words to Jimmy that "The truth is you've never mattered that much to me" was brutal.  Despite the way Gould was toying with it on the aftershow, Chuck's story is finished.  I don't want to see any more of him.  But he's been amazing to watch.

To me, the way the scenes were filmed, the music, the acting, made it seem less that he was trying to show anyone anything, and more that he had lost the tenuous control he had gained over his mental illness.  He starts off by trying to calm himself by naming objects and writing in his bedside journal, but rapidly devolves.  His doctor warned him that he was going too fast, it could take years. 

1 minute ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I'm not sure that that is true.  Unless the partnership contract, Chuck's estate would likely be entitled to the value of his partnership, though I assume that the firm has a life insurance policy on him that would cover a certain amount of that.  (A $9 million dollar policy would have huge annual payments, I would think.)  It is possible that the remaining amount would be small enough that the firm could pay it out (perhaps over time) without harming itself.  What do the corporate lawyers here think?

Not a corporate lawyer, but I don't think HHM is off the hook at all.  That will probably be what keeps Howard on the show if Chuck is dead.  He handed Chuck a personal check.  Chuck signed nothing.  There is still a partnership agreement in effect and Chuck's share of the firm's value will need to be paid. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

4 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I'm not sure that that is true.  Under the partnership contract, Chuck's estate would likely be entitled to the value of his partnership, though I assume that the firm has a life insurance policy on him that would cover a certain amount of that.  (A $9 million dollar policy would have huge annual payments, I would think.)  It is possible that the remaining amount would be small enough that the firm could pay it out (perhaps over time) without harming itself.  What do the corporate lawyers here think?

Not a corporate lawyer, but I don't think HHM is off the hook at all.  That will probably be what keeps Howard on the show if Chuck is dead.  He handed Chuck a personal check.  Chuck signed nothing.  There is still a partnership agreement in effect and Chuck's share of the firm's value will need to be paid

I think there's a good chance that Chuck never deposited Howard's check, but you are correct that Chuck never signed any agreement to accept the payout over time, the way Howard indicated he would be paid, so whoever will be the beneficiary of Chuck's estate (assuming he is dead), will have the right to pursue the funds.  If Chuck had a will, it could be Rebecca, it could be a charity, but I highly doubt that he would left any significant part of his estate to Jimmy.  In the unlikely event that he did not have a will, since he is not married and he has no parents, children or other siblings, Jimmy will be entitled to everything.

[nodorothyparker]

I think it was a combination of things.  This was a monster level of control freak and I thought from the beginning of his miraculous recovery that he seemed to believe it was a simple thing of mind over matter, that he controls so much else that he could "control" this too if he really made up his mind to do it.  So the final act, for some of it was that his control was slipping and the effort to maintain it became too great to bear when there was no longer anything in his mind to be gained from making the effort and some was that it was one final way to try to control the story of his end.  It's mattered very much to him throughout the story that he not be perceived as mentally ill, and I have no trouble believing he would rather be remembered as the tragedy of a house fire than a suicide.  If it was really just about suicide, god knows there's easier and less painful ways to die than burning to death.

I'm not a psychiatrist though.  I merely play someone talking psychobabble on the internet.

[Bannon]

There would no doubt be a very large life insurance policy on all partners, largest of all on Chuck and Howard, owned by HHM if whole life, and if term life (much lower premiums), the premiums would still be paid by HHM.

[benteen]

I was glad that Howard mic dropped Chuck the way that he did.  Chuck brought all of this on himself and still could have sought help.

He severed his relationship to Jimmy and the law firm...I really don't see what would be the purpose of keeping "Extra Crispy Chuck" around.  I imagine we'll get flashbacks though.  The fascination now will be to see the reaction of Chuck and Howard (who again, I'm so glad got a lot to do this season).

[luna1122]

This was a great finale, except for the no Mike thing. That seemed so odd to me.

After being convinced that Jimmy had almost irrevocably slid into Saul the last couple episodes, he was nothing BUT jimmy in this one. It makes me think that this show could actually show us Saul/Jimmy during the Breaking Bad years too...We saw Saul during those years, at sporadic times, but we never even knew there was a Jimmy. Saul is a persona, but I doubt, at this point, that Jimmy ceased to exist. We have no idea what happened when Saul left work and went home..it's quite possible he's still just Jimmy, going home to Kim, or someone. I'd love to see that, what was going on with him when he wasn't being a player in the Walter White saga.

Chuck's fate was fascinating to watch, and I do believe he's dead. It'd be crazy if he left everything to Jimmy.

I was half convinced, when Kim was looking at her calendar and then slumped and decided to go all movie/queso binge mode instead of working, that she'd just realized she was pregnant or something. Guess not.

As someone twenty years younger than Chuck but with a bad knee, I was impressed with the way Micheal Mckean just sailed down all those stairs, back ramrod straight, never needing a handrail.

I have a big grey cat named Atticus, so I feel ya, Kim.

[Bannon]

I think it bears repeating that the evolution/devolution of the character of Chuck, with all the backstory portrayed, all the non verbal illumination (remember the cold open with Chuck at the piano?), is one of the best psychological portrayals that  actor/writers/directors have ever accomplished in heavily serialized television drama. Really fantastic stuff, that never stooped to the cheap tricks that are so common to the format. I know some complain about slow pace, but I appreciated that nothing was ever rushed.

[JFParnell]

This show's first two season finales seemed a bit lacking. This was a step up though, helped by the melding of BB and Jimmy worlds that's now underway.

Ha - let's hope the show IS renewed! That would be cruel on AMC's part to leave us hanging (which we wouldn't be, technically, since we know Jimmy's future, but still...)

Loved Kim for binge-watching DVDs instead of trying to kill herself with more legal beagle-ing. She's got pluck, and I hope she doesn't come to a horrible end.

Boy, all this backstory with Hector and Gus adds even more oomph to the scene in "Face Off" on BB where Gus has that nanosecond of recognition that he's about to be blown to smithereens, realizing that in the end HECTOR won. (So did Walt, as he reminded us at the end..) Future dead-Gus must regret not killing past-Hector when he had the chance.

Agree with others about the look Gus gave Nacho. I was thinking the same thing: Of COURSE Gus noticed Nacho's curious diligence with the spilled pills -- he notices everything!

Saving this for last, and sorry Chuck fans, but YES!!! Finally! Is it immoral to dance on the grave of a fictional character? I feel kind of icky doing it but I'll do it anyway. Chuck is finally gone, and now order can be restored to the universe and we can finally pedal faster. I'm a Chuck basher obviously so I thought his devolution scene went on much too long. Dear Mr. Gould and Mr. Gilligan .. if you pay someone to read these sorts of boards to gauge feedback, please ... for the love of everything holy in this or the next world, NO ...  MORE ... CHUCK! Not one single frame. He's played out. It's over. Let it GO. And p.s. That includes flashbacks!  

(Sorry everyone! It's just, like, my opinion man. Don't mean to drag you all down! :)

But, yeah, give McKean his Emmy - couldn't stand his character, but, man-alive, the acting was superb. For everyone.

Mike? Mike who? Sigh... see you next year.

Have to say I thought the final Jimmy scene would me a bit less ... muted than it was, but I guess the mute button will be de-selected in the opener (if we get one) when he learns Chuck has shuffled off this mortal coil.

[ghoulina]

Not my favorite season finale ever. This is still one of the top shows on TV right now, and the acting is beyond comparison - but the pace is really just too slow for me. And I don't mind a slow burn, but I think this is just TOO slow. I feel like we've done this "back and forth" with Jimmy and Chuck one too many times. Sure, "You've never mattered all that much to me" is a horribly cruel thing to say. But we've already had the "You're not a real lawyer!" scene and I just feel like we're going in circles. 

I'm of the opinion that Chuck is dead, so it's finally going to be put to bed, but I just think that moment lacked some impact, given that we've been down that road before - of Jimmy putting pride aside and trying to mend things and Chuck being a giant ass, once again. 

I do think McKean has been phenomenal in this role and if he doesn't get at least an Emmy NOD, someone needs to lose their job. He's had so many solo scenes, and he carries them all perfectly. Chuck just went mad. Full on mad. I still would really love to know what was going on in his life around the time this illness began; I find it interesting that it always seems to get worse when there's been an incident with Jimmy. His superior, controlling nature won't let Jimmy get an inch, but I think deep down he must have felt some guilt about how he's treated him. 

I was glad to see Jimmy righting things with the Ol Lady Gang, but again - it's too much back and forth. I know he felt guilt over Kim and wanted to take a step back and not be so desperate for cash. But this teetering between Jimmy and Saul is just going on too long, IMO. I'm hoping next season we get some larger leaps and bounds. 

I've been a fan of Howard ever since I found out that he wasn't really the one sabotaging Jimmy. Sure, he still has his prick moments, but I think overall he's just a guy trying to keep the family business going. I thought it said a lot that he'd reach into his own pocket to buy out Chuck, before he'd let the firm sink. 

LOVED Kim going crazy at Blockbuster. 

I love Nacho, and watching Michael Mando work, but the whole thing with Hector was fairly anticlimactic because I already knew his fate. But I will say it was pretty cool to have Gus save him. Gus is like, "Oh no no no, buddy. You ain't getting off that easy". Nice touch. 

Overall, this season has been kind of meh for me, but I'm still very invested in the characters and there have been some great moments. So I'm hoping for something good next year. 

[Bannon]

I will say it bugged me that the episode title so clearly telegraphed what would happen with Chuck, although I didn't anticipate suicide.