Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Raachel2008]

2 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

the women have been portrayed as hysterical, unless they’re acting like men.

i call BS on the ONLY time in eight years we see the horrors of war affect the smallfolk in a large way to be this episode.

we saw more fear on the faces of innocents than we did from the Dothraki. 

Exactly which women have been portrayed as hysterical? Because quite frankly, I don’t recall Arya, Yara, Brienne, Dany, Lyanna, Myrcella, Cersei, Oleanna, Margery, Ygritte, Melisandre and even Sansa fitting the bill. Catelyn had a couple of moments I would call more dumb than anything else. 

Do people even know what hysterical means? Really means and which context it has been used in regards to women and how it could or not be applied in the scenes we saw?

ETA: I'm not counting watching a loved one die, like Catelyn at the Red Wedding, or Ellaria and Tyene, as "hysterical".

Edited May 14, 2019 by Raachel2008

[BadAssRobinArryn]

55 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Whether or not Ellaria has it coming? Also irrelevant. 

No it isn't, because she got the same ending as the "evil" male characters. Her comeuppance took in account her whole character instead of reducing her to her gender. She was as vile as Tywin or Roose Bolton and like them got her just deserts.

In the end, almost every single character*, male and female, who hurt innocents while trying to secure their power or getting power gets severly punished. It just happened that the last two were female.

*Writing "almost" just to get sure. Right now I can't think of one who got away, but there might very well be some.

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

No, but it does state a truth that many do overlook.  Not just for power, but also for wealth.

If this were true, it proves that nothing would change for the Smallfolk. Bronn's rise isn't good news for them at all. Nothing changes for the Smallfolk, it's just that the tyrant has another name.

[Maximum Taco]

1 hour ago, Portia4844 said:

The previous 3-eyed Raven hid out in a cave and gave no helpful history to anyone until Bran gets there and then he's all about sharing.  If Bran is the King or on the council, I can only hope he can speak in complete sentences and someone is writing it down so history isn't lost.  So far, what he shares is more like soap opera family drama.  Jon needed to know who he was,  Littlefinger needed to know Bran knew what he said to Ned, Jaime needed to know Bran remembered the things he did for love, and so on.  Not a word about what was going on in KL or Euron.  If he isn't supposed to give information that can change the outcome or prepare others with the knowledge that is available to him, what would be the point of him being King?  

Clearly Bran is a genius and he's playing the game like a boss. 

Let's assume Bran ends up as King in the end, and futhermore let us assume that this is his goal, that when he says he doesn't want things anymore he's a lying dick just like everyone else in the game. 

What does Bran need to do to achieve his goals?

Firstly he needs to defeat the Night King. How does he go about this?

1) He helps Sansa and Arya to uncover Littlefinger's betrayals and has him executed. Now the North is no longer fighting amongst itself, it is united behind the Starks and the Starks are committed to fighting the War for the Dawn. 

2) He gives Arya the catspaw dagger she needs to kill the Night King

3) He deliberately places himself in the godswood, the only place (according to word of god) where the Night King can be unmade.

4) He gives everyone as little information as possible, resulting in victory, but a victory with the absolute highest death count possible, which is important for the next phase. He also doesn't inform anyone what Cersei is doing in the south, again to make the death toll the highest. 

Secondly he needs to be put on the throne, which means he needs to eliminate any other contenders. Major contenders here (at the time Bran returns to Winterfell) are Littlefinger, Cersei, Sansa, and Daenerys, Jon also becomes a contender once Sam clues Bran into his heritage. So what does Bran do?

1) He reminds Sansa that only pain occurs when you play the game, by reminding her of her wedding night with Ramsay, making her crave security. This may seem counter-intuitive since Sansa's terror occurred in Winterfell itself, but he must know that Winterfell makes Sansa feel strong. She wants to remain there and is no longer a contender for the Iron Throne of Westeros. If he has to cede the North to her fine, he's her brother and moreso he SEES EVERYTHING and can probably trust her to not want to outright kill him. 

2) He orchestrates Littlefinger's death. Eliminated. 

3) He insists that Sam reveal Jon's heritage to him. And he INSISTS that it be done before the battle. Any sane person would wait until after the battle. But Bran insists that Jon know NOW because he knows Jon will tell Dany and that'll put more stress on her and their relationship. 

4) Bran knows that Dany is going to burn King's Landing, he has the vision right before he leaves the cave of the 3ER, but he deliberately tells no one, so this vision will come true and Dany will be villainized and moreso every army in the kingdoms will be devestated. 

Bran has now created a scenario where Dany sits the Iron Throne, but far weaker then she has ever been, with advisers who don't trust or believe in her, and another contender who doesn't want to be king, and if he kills Dany will want to be king even less. And every army is crippled and war weary. 

All hail Brandon of the House Stark, first of his name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Who?

nobody who’s ever learned any history. Jaimie is quite aware of the history of his own house.

It’s also an unbelievable cliche that wealthy people steal millions, one repeated daily in cable tv these days and one that anybody who’s ever paid the slightest attention to the stock market let alone corporate bailouts knows well.

its insulting to the viewers intelligence, TBH.  And it still doesn’t make Bronn a wise philosopher- he’s a greedy fuck with no principles. 

Take it up with GRRM, he obviously feels it was important to have that point made.

Bronn has principles, he never broke his word to Tyrion.  He was born to be cannon fodder and pulled himself up by his own wits and sword to becoming powerful and safe. 

I don't care if you hate him, go for it, but I see a lot that I like in him, and in any character that begins from NOTHING and makes a life for themselves.

[stagmania]

4 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

I'm not arguing that Dany's decision to burn King's Landing and slaughter innocents is right or moral. Nor am I arguing that women aren't subject to the siren calls of power and corruption. I'm arguing that the portrayal of how Dany got there is shallow at best and the motivations the writers have shown us are sexist and inconsistent with the portrayal of Dany's character thus far. Stannis for example was consistent in his loyalty to abstract morals and his entitlement to power based on those rules. When Stannis crossed the line we at least understood how and why based on the entire development of the character and consistent elements of emotion and personality. This isn't the case with Dany. 

Thank you for for stating this so eloquently.

4 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

One thing among many (many) that pisses me off is that the conclusion of Dany being killed is too easy for GRRM.  I always thought the conclusion would be Dany getting the throne, but as the price she paid, having everything be in utter chaos, and having to deal with Dothraki roaming the country raping and pillaging and forming alliances with the hill tribes, etc.  Dany would get the throne, but ruling would suck.  That seems like a George RR Martin ending. 

Frankly, I think the destruction of King's Landing will happen differently in the books.  There will be a second Dance With Dragons between Dany and fAegon, and Dany's single-minded pursuit of destroying Aegon and his forces will lead her to total the city and kill many innocent inhabitants.  Still reprehensible, still makes you question her ability to rule, but with enough plausible deniability that you can still sort of see her as a decent character and not a full on psychopath.   

Both of these ideas of yours are far more interesting than what the show did.

4 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Has the show ever explained why Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off, other than for shits and giggles?

I'm not sure that it has, though I'm not sure.

If there's no further explanation in the finale, that seems kind of weak.

This is at the top of my list of disappointments with this series. The biggest mystery in the books, the key to unlocking the central prophecies, the reveal that the whole damn thing hinges on - and they totally squandered it. We have no sense of why they did what they did, or who Lyanna, in particular, was. Why did she run away with Rhaegar? Did she care about the chaos and destruction she was causing? Was she oblivious? Did she try to do anything to fix it before her death? We'll never know.

2 hours ago, Jextella said:

If this was GRRM's intent, it seems Dany's increasing aggression could be interpreted as a genetic flaw and has zero to do with gender.

That's not how this works. His story about a woman ruler doesn't exist in a vacuum - it's part of a whole literary tradition of women characters and the misogynist tropes used to define them - and you can't just remove it from that larger context. His choice to depict a powerful woman in this way plays into those toxic tropes, and it was a choice. 

Let's assume his ending is the same as the show's, with Dany massacring innocents for no reason after the city is already hers. In that scenario, he has two core protagonists, the ice and fire of this story - one male, one female. His decision was to make the man noble, honorable, morally upright and deserving of power because he doesn't want it, and the woman unstable, erratic, ambitious to a fault and ultimately paranoid and hysterical to the point of madness. That depiction follows a long misogynistic tradition that he has chosen to play into.

Personally, my hope is that GRRM's version of this plot doesn't play out in quite this way, that Dany's actions are better motivated and that her characterization is far more nuanced. I want to believe he's a smarter writer than the show ending makes him seem.

29 minutes ago, SNeaker said:

Fair, I forgot about Yara still being alive. 

Maybe because the show did. More important to have her Uncle Douchebag chewing up scenery.

Yara getting no real ending is a serious bummer. If they had done the King's Landing battle right, she would have been part of it and gotten some closure on Euron.

10 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

All hail Brandon of the House Stark, first of his name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm.

LOL your evil genius Bran theory is the only one that would make sense of him getting the throne.

Edited May 14, 2019 by stagmania

[Portia4844]

6 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Bran has now created a scenario where Dany sits the Iron Throne, but far weaker then she has ever been, with advisers who don't trust or believe in her, and another contender who doesn't want to be king, and if he kills Dany will want to be king even less. And every army is crippled and war weary. 

If Bran could be the one responsible for this mess in order to take over the Throne, it would make watching this season worthwhile.  I'd have to toast D&D for surprising me by being such amazing writers.   🙂

[Eyes High]

So as the end of 8x05, of the remaining characters who has any substantial storyline left? It seems like most of the surviving characters--Sam, Gilly, Tormund, Pod, Brienne, Davos, Yara, etc.--are pretty much done. It's possible that Sam, Brienne, Yara, etc. may only appear at the epilogue Dragonpit scene.

Sansa's arc is pretty much over, apart from her goodbyes to Bran, Jon and Arya. Her appearances may be limited to the Dragonpit scene and a few short goodbyes. We may get some closure to her relationship with Tyrion, if they go their separate ways as the spoilers indicate, maybe a proper annulment. I doubt Sansa will come south until Dany is dead, though.

Arya's arc also seems to be over for the most part, with her choosing life over revenge and deciding to forge a new path for herself in 8x05.

Bran needs to become king if the episode spoilers are correct. Hopefully they devote enough time to that so that it makes some sort of sense.

Bronn needs to collect on Tyrion's promise, but that can be dealt with in a short scene.

It's not clear what's going to happen with Grey Worm, so there's another question mark.

...So pretty much the only characters left with any substantial plot left are Jon, Dany and Tyrion (as well as Bran if King Bran is going to be a thing). Since they've always been the most important characters in the show, it makes sense that their arcs would only be concluded in the final episode.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Eyes High

[AuntieMame]

8 minutes ago, stagmania said:

This is at the top of my list of disappointments with this series. The biggest mystery in the books, the key to unlocking the central prophecies, the reveal that the whole damn thing hinges on - and they totally squandered it. We have no sense of why they did what they did, or who Lyanna, in particular, was. Why did she run away with Rhaegar? Did she care about the chaos and destruction she was causing? Was she oblivious? Did she try to do anything to fix it before her death? We'll never know.

That's not how this works. His story about a woman ruler doesn't exist in a vacuum - it's part of a whole literary tradition of women characters and the misogynist tropes used to define them - and you can't just remove it from that larger context. His choice to depict a powerful woman in this way plays into those toxic tropes, and it was a choice. 

Let's assume his ending is the same as the show's, with Dany massacring innocents for no reason after the city is already hers. In that scenario, he has two core protagonists, the ice and fire of this story - one male, one female. His decision was to make the man noble, honorable, morally upright and deserving of power because he doesn't want it, and the woman unstable, erratic, ambitious to a fault and ultimately paranoid and hysterical to the point of madness. That depiction follows a long misogynistic tradition that he has chosen to play into.

Personally, my hope is that GRRM's version of this plot doesn't play out in quite this way, that Dany's actions are better motivated and that her characterization is far more nuanced. I want to believe he's a smarter writer than the show ending makes him seem.

Yara getting no real ending is a serious bummer. If they had done the King's Landing battle right, she would have been part of it and gotten some closure on Euron.

This is all interesting and brilliantly stated. The prophecies that fans have been analyzing for years? Yeah, go ahead and ignore those. 

Not only Dany, but many of the other women were written with misogynist tropes. I love Arya, but she is a "not like the other girls" because she likes boy things (and is too ugly to be a lady, like Brienne) and is therefore written as proto male. 

I'm bummed that Yara doesn't get an ending,vat least not so far. Yara's loyalty to Theon was something I liked. 

I thought I would be happy to get any ending because I don't think Martin is going to finish his books, but I'm not happy with this CGI spectacle that can't stay consistent with the characters. 

oh and I hated the dropping of Jaime's redemption arc with no explanation. I don't mind so much that Jaime failed but that it wasn't explained and that the real reason seems to be D and D's obsession with Cersei. Why would anyone get the warm fuzzies for Cersei?

[SNeaker]

37 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

No it isn't, because she got the same ending as the "evil" male characters. Her comeuppance took in account her whole character instead of reducing her to her gender. She was as vile as Tywin or Roose Bolton and like them got her just deserts.

In the end, almost every single character*, male and female, who hurt innocents while trying to secure their power or getting power gets severly punished. It just happened that the last two were female.

It's not about whether they deserved their endings, it's about the optics. All those women replaced by all those men.

This show has always had a diverse array of women, and it has been one of its draws for me. Having the big villain, Cersei, be a woman didn't bother me at all as the show has all kinds of women and Dany to me was the counterpoint to that. Oops, she's a bigger monster.

I don't think it "just so happens" the last two were female. And some of those awful men, like Theon, got redemption arcs.

Edited May 14, 2019 by SNeaker

[stagmania]

5 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

Why would anyone get the warm fuzzies for Cersei?

One thing I overlooked in my initial reactions was that Tyrion wasn't just trying to save the city and help Jaime with his actions in this last ep - he was actively trying to help Cersei escape! That makes him a traitor to the common good any way you slice it, regardless of your position on Dany. And after three seasons of being wrong about everything and perpetrating this ultimate betrayal of the people, the consequence will be ... he gets to rule the kingdom. LMAO.

[loki567]

No way in the world the Jaime/Cersei thing goes down the same in the books. He was already out of love with her BEFORE she burned down the sept. That was 100% completely an invention by the show due to their love for LH. 

My guess is that Myrcella actually makes it out of Dorne and gets crowned by Cersei. When it looks like they're about to lose King's Landing (either to Dany or f!Aegon), Cersei poisons Myrcella (similar to how she nearly poisoned Tommen during Blackwater) and Jaime strangles her in rage. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by loki567

[screamin]

45 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Clearly Bran is a genius and he's playing the game like a boss. 

Let's assume Bran ends up as King in the end, and futhermore let us assume that this is his goal, that when he says he doesn't want things anymore he's a lying dick just like everyone else in the game. 

What does Bran need to do to achieve his goals?

Firstly he needs to defeat the Night King. How does he go about this?

1) He helps Sansa and Arya to uncover Littlefinger's betrayals and has him executed. Now the North is no longer fighting amongst itself, it is united behind the Starks and the Starks are committed to fighting the War for the Dawn. 

2) He gives Arya the catspaw dagger she needs to kill the Night King

3) He deliberately places himself in the godswood, the only place (according to word of god) where the Night King can be unmade.

4) He gives everyone as little information as possible, resulting in victory, but a victory with the absolute highest death count possible, which is important for the next phase. He also doesn't inform anyone what Cersei is doing in the south, again to make the death toll the highest. 

Secondly he needs to be put on the throne, which means he needs to eliminate any other contenders. Major contenders here (at the time Bran returns to Winterfell) are Littlefinger, Cersei, Sansa, and Daenerys, Jon also becomes a contender once Sam clues Bran into his heritage. So what does Bran do?

1) He reminds Sansa that only pain occurs when you play the game, by reminding her of her wedding night with Ramsay, making her crave security. This may seem counter-intuitive since Sansa's terror occurred in Winterfell itself, but he must know that Winterfell makes Sansa feel strong. She wants to remain there and is no longer a contender for the Iron Throne of Westeros. If he has to cede the North to her fine, he's her brother and moreso he SEES EVERYTHING and can probably trust her to not want to outright kill him. 

2) He orchestrates Littlefinger's death. Eliminated. 

3) He insists that Sam reveal Jon's heritage to him. And he INSISTS that it be done before the battle. Any sane person would wait until after the battle. But Bran insists that Jon know NOW because he knows Jon will tell Dany and that'll put more stress on her and their relationship. 

4) Bran knows that Dany is going to burn King's Landing, he has the vision right before he leaves the cave of the 3ER, but he deliberately tells no one, so this vision will come true and Dany will be villainized and moreso every army in the kingdoms will be devestated. 

Bran has now created a scenario where Dany sits the Iron Throne, but far weaker then she has ever been, with advisers who don't trust or believe in her, and another contender who doesn't want to be king, and if he kills Dany will want to be king even less. And every army is crippled and war weary. 

All hail Brandon of the House Stark, first of his name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm.

Yep  - and he repeatedly says to multiple people that he doesn't want to be lord of ANYTHING, which by the laws of the GoT universe means that he will immediately rocket to the top of the lists of everyone deciding who they want to rule them. Never mind that he has all the charisma of a spoiling codfish, and has conspicuously failed to give timely warnings of horrible events when he is known to be capable of giving those warnings and  could easily have saved many lives by doing so (imagine, for example, how much better the NW would have fared if Bran had ordered a raven sent warning them that the NK was fishing up a dragon while it was still  happening).

Edited May 14, 2019 by screamin

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, Jextella said:

but I read somewhere online that the Mad King went mad because of the messed up gene pool caused by incest.  Thus the coin toss analogy.

In the books Selmy tells Dany her father changed after he was held prisoner for a week or so in some plot to overthrow him. Selmy saved his life. But the paranoia kicked in at that point. 

But yeah too much inbreeding is probably bad for the gene pool too. 🙂

[Raachel2008]

4 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

. I'm arguing that the portrayal of how Dany got there is shallow at best and the motivations the writers have shown us are sexist and inconsistent with the portrayal of Dany's character thus far. Stannis for example was consistent in his loyalty to abstract morals and his entitlement to power based on those rules. When Stannis crossed the line we at least understood how and why based on the entire development of the character and consistent elements of emotion and personality. This isn't the case with Dany. 

I understand what you are trying to say, but I dont agree the reasons the writers have shown are *sexists*. Danny has always been consistent in her motivations - sit on the Iron Throne - and her loyalty, if we can say so - to her own narrative: the last Targaryen, the rightfully heir of the throne.

We've seen since the beggining that she could be ruthless and impatient, just like Stannis - and several other characters. Yes, Dany has good qualities and so did Stannis. Yes, Dany crossed a line, consistent with elements of emotion and personality. Those traits were on screen. This is the case with Danny, and the how and why was on screen. 

I agree - I DO agree - that it was rushed and maybe not organic, but there are people, like me, that had a lot of trouble watching Stannis burning his own daughter who he we all thought he loved more than anything. But he did not. Same with Dany. We all thought that she would never burn innocent people and she did. Why is it sexist, because she is a mass murderer and he 'only' killed his own daughter? 

OR giving the female character the power, the reasons AND  the agency to do so is not empowering in a way? 

[YaddaYadda]

11 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

In the books Selmy tells Dany her father changed after he was held prisoner for a week or so in some plot to overthrow him. Selmy saved his life. But the paranoia kicked in at that point. 

A week? It was six months he was imprisoned for. 

[Maximum Taco]

21 minutes ago, screamin said:

Yep  - and he repeatedly says to multiple people that he doesn't want to be lord of ANYTHING, which by the laws of the GoT universe means that he will immediately rocket to the top of the lists of everyone deciding who they want to rule them. Never mind that he has all the charisma of a spoiling codfish, and has conspicuously failed to give timely warnings of horrible events when he is known to be capable of giving those warnings and  could easily have saved many lives by doing so (imagine, for example, how much better the NW would have fared if Bran had ordered a raven sent warning them that the NK was fishing up a dragon while it was still  happening).

Seriously, the only way Bran makes any sense in this world where D&D have given him this kind of essentially limitless power is if he is truly playing some kind of long game and orchestrating everything towards his end goal. 

"Sometimes, when I try to understand a person's motives I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying [or not saying] what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?' So tell me, what's the worst thing he could want?"

Now let's be clear, I don't think D&D are this smart. But it would explain mostly everything when it comes to Bran's choices. And Varys would be proud, Bran did what he did for the good of the realm.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Raachel2008]

7 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Seriously, the only way Bran makes any sense in this world where D&D have given him this kind of essentially limitless power is if he is truly playing some kind of long game and orchestrating everything towards his end goal. 

"Sometimes, when I try to understand a person's motives I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying [or not saying] what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?' So tell me, what's the worst thing he could want?"

Now let's be clear, I don't think D&D are this smart. But it would explain mostly everything when it comes to Bran's choices. And Varys would be proud, Bran did what he did for the good of the realm.

But it sill doesn't answer WHY. 

[Maximum Taco]

Just now, Raachel2008 said:

But it sill doesn't answer WHY. 

This is the problem with introducing this kind of power into the narrative. If Bran is all knowing and all seeing and without desires, why does he do anything? Could we even understand if he tried to explain it to us?

Bran is essentially god in this story, and you are asking "why does god allow bad things to happen to good people?"

[Constantinople]

Quote

Bronn: So she wants to murder someone, but she can't send her soldiers. If it's the Dragon Queen she's after
Qyburn: She has other plans for the Targaryen girl.

So the "other plans" were just the scorpions?

Because that's also disappointing.

They were easily destroyed when Dany's dragon riding skill wasn't set to moron

[Umbelina]

Beric said that he lost more of himself each time he was resurrected, his memory, his will, all of it.  Anyone know that exact quote?

I think one of the reasons GRRM was SO upset that they dropped "Lady Stoneheart" is because she could explain Jon now, who is already dead.

It's quite possible Jon is so meek now because hey, they didn't lie, the dude is really DEAD.  Being dead has consequences, we just don't know all of those.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

47 minutes ago, SNeaker said:

This show has always had a diverse array of women, and it has been one of its draws for me. Having the big villain, Cersei, be a woman didn't bother me at all as the show has all kinds of women and Dany to me was the counterpoint to that. Oops, she's a bigger monster.

I don't think it "just so happens" the last two were female. And some of those awful men, like Theon, got redemption arcs.

Theon suffered endlessly for his sins. One could argue an early death would have been more merciful. But he certainly found his grace again and got some redemption, that's true. However, and I'm aware that this is a matter of opinion: The IMO only other "evil" character that also had sort of a redemptive death is Melisandre, a woman.

And I don't think Dany will be remembered as that monstrous. According to spoilers her positive legacy seems to be that she freed the slaves, and this is what Grey Worm wants to continue in her name.  

And the show still has a diverse array of women. It has Sansa, Arya, Yara, Brienne, who all wield some power in a different way. It had Lyanna Mormont dying a heroe's death, it had Arya killing the Night King and Melisandre basically the MVP (other than Arya) in the Battle of Winterfell.

[AuntieMame]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

I understand what you are trying to say, but I dont agree the reasons the writers have shown are *sexists*. Danny has always been consistent in her motivations - sit on the Iron Throne - and her loyalty, if we can say so - to her own narrative: the last Targaryen, the rightfully heir of the throne.

We've seen since the beggining that she could be ruthless and impatient, just like Stannis - and several other characters. Yes, Dany has good qualities and so did Stannis. Yes, Dany crossed a line, consistent with elements of emotion and personality. Those traits were on screen. This is the case with Danny, and the how and why was on screen. 

I agree - I DO agree - that it was rushed and maybe not organic, but there are people, like me, that had a lot of trouble watching Stannis burning his own daughter who he we all thought he loved more than anything. But he did not. Same with Dany. We all thought that she would never burn innocent people and she did. Why is it sexist, because she is a mass murderer and he 'only' killed his own daughter? 

OR giving the female character the power, the reasons AND  the agency to do so is not empowering in a way? 

You aren't the only one who had trouble watching Stannis burn Shireen. I was screaming at the television: "Dude! Any God that demands sacrifice, especially of a child is a God to be fought, not worshipped."

The difference is that I understood exactly how Stannis got to that point, history, character and circumstances . It was all clear and consistent. It was the same with Cersei empowering the sparrows and then burning the sept; it wasn't right by any means but it made sense in terms of Cersei's personality, history and circumstances. 

With Dany on the other hand, her motivations in these last episodes are basically bitches be crazy combined with her love of Jon and the loss pushed her over the edge. It isn't consistent even for a character who wants conquest. The seven kingdoms aren't conquest to Dany but restoration. Even with the horrific losses Dany has borne, I'm not certain that adding to the dead makes sense in the situation and the reasons given are trite and sexist. Sexism isn't just about education or wealth or power or position. It is about whether women are viewed as fully human. People who aren't seen as fully human? Their minds, emotions, reasons and motivations are often seen either as a mystery or as cliches. These writers can't really write a female character unless she is either a bundle of cliches (Cersei loves her children) or a proto man (Brienne and Arya are warriors and are thus comprehensible.) What an actual female warrior might be like is left unexplored. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by AuntieMame

[kittykat]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

So as the end of 8x05, of the remaining characters who has any substantial storyline left? It seems like most of the surviving characters--Sam, Gilly, Tormund, Pod, Brienne, Davos, Yara, etc.--are pretty much done. It's possible that Sam, Brienne, Yara, etc. may only appear at the epilogue Dragonpit scene.

Sansa's arc is pretty much over, apart from her goodbyes to Bran, Jon and Arya. Her appearances may be limited to the Dragonpit scene and a few short goodbyes. We may get some closure to her relationship with Tyrion, if they go their separate ways as the spoilers indicate, maybe a proper annulment. I doubt Sansa will come south until Dany is dead, though.

Arya's arc also seems to be over for the most part, with her choosing life over revenge and deciding to forge a new path for herself in 8x05.

Bran needs to become king if the episode spoilers are correct. Hopefully they devote enough time to that so that it makes some sort of sense.

Bronn needs to collect on Tyrion's promise, but that can be dealt with in a short scene.

It's not clear what's going to happen with Grey Worm, so there's another question mark.

...So pretty much the only characters left with any substantial plot left are Jon, Dany and Tyrion (as well as Bran if King Bran is going to be a thing). Since they've always been the most important characters in the show, it makes sense that their arcs would only be concluded in the final episode.

If Isaac gets an inordinate amount of screen time in the first half of the episode we have our answer.

If Tyrion believes he is dying he can probably make sure Dany or Jon gives Bronn Highgarden to secure his loyalty to them.

If Dany dies I'm guessing Grey Worm and Drogon aren't too far behind her 😥.  Grey Worm will try to avenge her but be taken out (possibly Aryas last kill).

Edited May 14, 2019 by kittykat

[Stallion12]

Perhaps useless was to strong, I simply meant the whole backstory to John really felt like it wasn't needed, yes they used it for contention, but all that build up and being told 3 times really was a letdown.

[magdalene]

1 hour ago, loki567 said:

No way in the world the Jaime/Cersei thing goes down the same in the books. He was already out of love with her BEFORE she burned down the sept. That was 100% completely an invention by the show due to their love for LH. 

My guess is that Myrcella actually makes it out of Dorne and gets crowned by Cersei. When it looks like they're about to lose King's Landing (either to Dany or f!Aegon), Cersei poisons Myrcella (similar to how she nearly poisoned Tommen during Blackwater) and Jaime strangles her in rage. 

I wish I could ask GRRM whether the TV crap is Jaime's endgame in the books. I can't wrap my head around that the Jaime of A Feast For Crows would crawl back to Cersei in lurrve...

[SNeaker]

1 hour ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

And I don't think Dany will be remembered as that monstrous. According to spoilers her positive legacy seems to be that she freed the slaves, and this is what Grey Worm wants to continue in her name.  

I think certain bad deeds cancel out certain good ones. Genocide is one of them. If Dany were a real person, the fact that she deliberately slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent civilians for no good reason SHOULD be her legacy. Not one of her good deeds can even be looked back on with admiration. According to all the people telling me I “haven’t been paying attention” Dany has always been out for only herself. Freeing the slaves was just her way of feeling good about herself and gaining admirers, and she showed her brutality while doing it. None of those moments are triumphant in retrospect. 

If Dany had made some bad decisions with good intentions that cost lives and her legacy could be considered mixed, that would be one thing. This is how her story ends, and this is now the sum total of who she was. A monster who had to be put down. And if the show tries to instill sympathy and claim those across the sea remember her as the “breaker of chains,” then that will be a legacy she doesn’t deserve. They can’t have it both ways. 

Definitely not a series I will ever rewatch a moment of.

[Wouter]

4 hours ago, Bean421 said:

I loved this read on Dany's actions. Less of a snap and more of following through with what she told Jon about "Let it be fear." 

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-of-thrones-the-bells/

Since burning KL, didn't make sense as a sensible military strategy at the point that she did it (with her troops already well in the city and Cersei's forces starting to surrender - she must have killed some of her own forces, as well as destroying her own capital and main keep), it indeed looks like it was intended as a deliberate act of terror, probably meant to keep such places as Winterfell/the north, the Vale and Dorne in line. If she is willing to burn her own capital full of of "her" people, there is no doubt that she would take down any rebellious castle in a hurry.

While it is disappointing - I didn't want to believe the leaks which have proven to be pretty accurate after all - and Dany's turn to madness/cold terror was too rushed, I don't doubt the books are intended to have a very similar ending. There has always been an air of destroyed cities hanging over Dany (see this thread on Westeros, started in july 2018, as an example: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/151496-the-queen-of-ashes-foreshadowing/ ).

D&D did do some foreshadowing from early on, not only the image of the dragon is a big hint but also Kinvara's lines in S6 ("the dragons will purify the non-believers by the thousands").

I just thought that foreshadowing (in the books) about Jon meeting Dany ("the blue rose" in the house of undying vision) and this actually happening on the show meant that Dany would not succumb to actually burn cities (at least not in Westeros - Volantis etc are also at risk, in the books). Rather, Jon and Dany would together overcome the OThers (The Night King in the show). I suppose that one of both will actually do this in the books, but with it being Arya in the show the recent turn of events taste even more bitter.

I disliked the way Cersei ended (way too much sympathy implied for her), something which will probably be different in the books with the Valonqar prophecy. I still wonder who the "younger more beautiful queen" is supposed to be. Margaery after all?

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, Wouter said:

I disliked the way Cersei ended (way too much sympathy implied for her), something which will probably be different in the books with the Valonqar prophecy. I still wonder who the "younger more beautiful queen" is supposed to be. Margaery after all?

Arianne Martell? 

[Umbelina]

Dany is the younger more beautiful Queen that took Cersei off the throne.

[Wouter]

11 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Arianne Martell? 

Possible in the books, but since the show kept this prophecy but dropped (f)Aegon and Arianne it seems unlikely. I now think Cersei's power will last quite long in the books as well, in spite of Margaery and (f)Aegon.

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Dany is the younger more beautiful Queen that took Cersei off the throne.

The YMBQ is supposed to "take everything that Cersei holds dear". While the throne would certainly be among that, Margaery took Joffrey and Tommen.  And it doesn't look like Dany will actually take the throne or rule as queen. Still, maybe it is Dany and the show rushed over some elements that should be in the books.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

This is the problem with introducing this kind of power into the narrative. If Bran is all knowing and all seeing and without desires, why does he do anything? Could we even understand if he tried to explain it to us?

Bran is essentially god in this story, and you are asking "why does god allow bad things to happen to good people?"

Old saying: "If God lived on earth, people would break his windows."

God may move in mysterious ways, and we have to accept that things may go shittily for us now and then because all we can do is pray or rant to heaven. But if God lived among us, refusing to give us help or advice and shrugging off disasters that befell our loved ones with "yeah, I could have kept that from happening but I didn't," AND He was a fragile, easily injured, totally uncharismatic human? I doubt he'd be chosen for supreme power, or be able to survive retaliation long. I just can't find it believable that they'd want him to be king.

[YaddaYadda]

1 minute ago, Wouter said:

Possible in the books, but since the show kept this prophecy but dropped (f)Aegon and Arianne it seems unlikely. I now think Cersei's power will last quite long in the books as well, in spite of Margaery and (f)Aegon.

I was talking strictly book. The prophecies clearly didn't matter on the show. 

In the show Margaery and Tommen consummated their marriage. In the book, they did not, so that marriage can still be set aside. 

[chrisvee]

9 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

THIS!!!! Tyrion was a traitor!!! And deserves a traitors death. I do NOT understand everyone weeping over his scene with his brother when he was literally making a plan to save the enemy- if she were Hitler. Mussolini, is the comparison helpful? Dany questioned his loyalty and his Lannister background a gazillion times, and turns out she was RIGHT. I HATE that he’s going to be alive and on the council at the end. He couldn’t have harmed her more if he’d been complicit with cersei all the time.

Tyrion is trying to avoid the genocide he suspects is in front of him by making a deal that risks that Cersei rises again in 15 years. Pragmatic to the end. But it’s why I have more respect for Varys.

[JennyMominFL]

2 hours ago, SNeaker said:I think certain bad deeds cancel out certain good ones. Genocide is one of them. If Dany were a real person, the fact that she deliberately slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent civilians for no good reason SHOULD be her legacy. Not one of her good deeds can even be looked back on with admiration. According to all the people telling me I “haven’t been paying attention” Dany has always been out for only herself. Freeing the slaves was just her way of feeling good about herself and gaining admirers, and she showed her brutality while doing it. None of those moments are triumphant in retrospect. 

If Dany had made some bad decisions with good intentions that cost lives and her legacy could be considered mixed, that would be one thing. This is how her story ends, and this is now the sum total of who she was. A monster who had to be put down. And if the show tries to instill sympathy and claim those across the sea remember her as the “breaker of chains,” then that will be a legacy she doesn’t deserve. They can’t have it both ways. 

Definitely not a series I will ever rewatch a moment of.

Weren’t we informed those cities later went back to slaving? If so ,  claiming Westeros was more important that freedom for the enslaved.

[JennyMominFL]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Dany is the younger more beautiful Queen that took Cersei off the throne.

I think LH is more beautiful that EC. EC is obviously younger

[anamika]

3 hours ago, SNeaker said:

If Dany had made some bad decisions with good intentions that cost lives and her legacy could be considered mixed, that would be one thing. This is how her story ends, and this is now the sum total of who she was. A monster who had to be put down. And if the show tries to instill sympathy and claim those across the sea remember her as the “breaker of chains,” then that will be a legacy she doesn’t deserve. They can’t have it both ways. 

Definitely not a series I will ever rewatch a moment of. 

I don't think it's worth watching for Jon and Bran's journey now as well

Knowing what we now know about the NK and the AOTD, why bother with Jon's story? The AOTD were not that big of a deal, the long night lasted one night and all they needed was FM Arya.

As someone else posted, why watch Bran crawl towards a tree for 8 years either?

Jaime had no story either.

The female characters may have got some terribly sexist writing, but at least they got a story and had an impact.  Arya killed the NK, Sansa became the smartest person of Westeros and took down several baddies, Cersei defeated her enemies and held onto KL till the very end and Dany razed KL to the ground after finally having had enough.

Considering D&D saying now that Dany was already showing signs of madness for not crying over Viserys, someone pointed out book Tyrion's deeds:

Quote

Tyrion murdered his ex and his father in cold blood. He had Symeon Silvertongue served to the smallfolk as stew. He hits Cersei with nothing but vitriol and rage right up until he leaves KL in S4. But then he returns to Westeros and is suddenly the angel on Dany's shoulder? All of a sudden Mr. Wildfire is disgusted by the use of dragonfire in battle? The man who wants nothing more than to see Cersei suffer, to see her joy turn to ash in her mouth, is pleading for Dany to spare her life?

It would have been one thing if they just whitewashed the character. They didn't have to go all the way and make him a rapist. But they took any aspects of his character that might look at all unsavory in light of what Dany does and turned them around 180 degrees

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bokhon/spoilers_main_the_issue_isnt_the_lack_of/enihv3w?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

Ignoring D&D's saint Tyrion fanfiction on the show, I think in my own head cannon, I am going to take it as Tyrion actually being brilliant really.

Remember when Tyrion told Cersei this?

Quote

A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid.”

Now imagine, if Tyrion allied with Dany in Essos to do precisely this and helped Dany and her dragons get to KL and turned Cersei's joy to ashes. And he finally wins the Game of Thrones and rules over Westeros because he's the smartest and most qualified to do so.  To me this is more palatable than Tyrion crying over Cersei because she's a mother.

Of course to do this, I have to ignore the entirety of season 7 and since there's nothing of worth in that season, it's pretty easy to do.

3 hours ago, Wouter said:

I disliked the way Cersei ended (way too much sympathy implied for her), something which will probably be different in the books with the Valonqar prophecy. I still wonder who the "younger more beautiful queen" is supposed to be. Margaery after all? 

I think it's been quite clear for some time now that YMBQ was a self-fulfilling prophecy and this queen was none other than Cersei herself.  The prophecy is what sets of her paranoia and her plotting. She hates Tyrion because she thinks he is the Valonqar, she hates and plots against Sansa, Margaery etc. because she thinks they are the younger queens and everything Cersei did as the younger, more beautiful queen is what ultimately leads to her downfall. 

And that's why mad queen Dany on the show is so frustrating. We already have a mad queen in the books and the show - Cersei slowly becoming more and more paranoid and doing increasingly stupid things like Aerys did - which is going to lead to her downfall. But apparently D&D felt the need for there to be two mad queens battling it out at the end.

Edited May 15, 2019 by anamika

[loki567]

The unfortunate thing is the show's going to almost lose all of its replayability now that we know what happens. Almost anything Jon, Jaime, Bran, Stannis, etc. Giant chunks of the show will not matter in the slightest because in the end they didn't matter in the slightest to the story. 

I know there's an argument that you can't show everything, but I wish the show had more ruthless with some of the periphery characters in order to give its main characters more screentime for development.  

[Portia4844]

5 minutes ago, anamika said:

I don't think it's worth watching for Jon and Bran's journey now as well

Knowing what we now know about the NK and the AOTD, why bother with Jon's story? The AOTD were not that big of a deal, the long night lasted one night and all they needed was FM Arya.

As someone else posted, why watch Bran crawl towards a tree for 8 years either?

Jaime had no story either.

Remember when Tyrion told Cersei this?

Now imagine, if Tyrion allied with Dany in Essos to do precisely this and brought Dany and her dragons to KL and turned Cersei's joy to ashes. And he finally wins the Game of Thrones and rules over Westeros. To me this is more palatable than Tyrion crying over Cersei because she's a mother.

Of course to do this, I have to ignore the entirety of season 7 and since there's nothing of worth in that season, it's pretty easy to do.

Tyrion was one of my favorites until the last book.  I hoped GRRM would change that but if the show version is what he became, he's a major disappointment.  Wanting to save the innocent from dying is understandable but it all being mixed in with wanting to help Jaime and Cersei escape ruins him for me.  

[Eyes High]

56 minutes ago, anamika said:

Ignoring D&D's saint Tyrion fanfiction on the show, I think in my own head cannon, I am going to take it as Tyrion actually being brilliant really.

Tyrion getting the saint/hero edit really got cranked to 11 in S8:

1. His belief in Cersei is the product of his genuine compassion and goodness (per the writers) and making the mistake intelligent people make of underestimating their opponent, not the product of conflicted loyalties.

2. He reveals that he has given up whoremongering and has been celibate for years, which...is nice, but why is that important information? The show hasn't touched on Tyrion's sex life since S5.

3. He is the only one to take any sort of interest in Bran as a person, while everyone else finds him creepy and is content to ignore him.

4. Jorah and Sansa crisply defend Tyrion to Dany when she (rightly!) expresses frustration with his track record, pointing out his good qualities and arguing on his behalf.

5. He chivalrously kisses Sansa's hand when they're facing certain death (...while the Hound has a scene where he sneers about Sansa being "broken in rough").

6. Despite being completely wasted in the crypts, he still picks up a dagger to fight when Sansa asks him to, and (improbably) manages to hold off the wights with Sansa until the NK is killed.

7. He is the only person apart from Varys who expresses any concern whatsoever about civilian casualties in KL. Even Jon doesn't say anything on this point.

8. He's polite to Sansa and expresses genuine concern over her provoking Dany, even when she's being rude and dismissive.

9. He is revealed as being afraid of Dany, which seems like a retcon, frankly.

10. He walks into the archers' line of fire to attempt to reason with Cersei.

11. He admits to Varys he betrayed him and weirdly comforts Varys before he dies (?). He's a mensch even when he's selling you out, apparently.

12. He commits treason, knowing it will mean his death, to give Jaime a shot at convincing Cersei to surrender.

13. He still tries to save Cersei's life several times even after she sent his own friend to assassinate him.

...I mean, really.

Even his one dick move the entire season--outing Brienne as a virgin in front of Jaime--was calculated to enable Jaime and Brienne's hookup. It's kind of ridiculous.

I'm not sure what the purpose of it all is. I also get the sense that Jon's heroism and concern for the masses are being downplayed so that only Tyrion is the one other than Varys wringing his hands about dead children. Jon in S7 seemed to care a lot about Dany burning cities and protecting the innocent and such, but it's Tyrion running around trying to prevent wholesale slaughter while Jon just makes sad faces.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Eyes High

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

Tyrion getting the saint/hero edit really got cranked to 11 in S8:

1. His belief in Cersei is the product of his genuine compassion and goodness (per the writers) and making the mistake intelligent people make of underestimating their opponent, not the product of conflicted loyalties.

2. He reveals that he has given up whoremongering and has been celibate for years.

3. He is the only one to take any sort of interest in Bran as a person, while everyone else finds him creepy and is content to ignore him.

4. Jorah and Sansa crisply defend Tyrion to Dany when she (rightly!) expresses frustration with his track record, pointing out his good qualities and arguing on his behalf.

5. He chivalrously kisses Sansa's hand when they're facing certain death.

6. Despite being completely wasted in the crypts, he still picks up a dagger to fight when Sansa asks him to, and (improbably) manages to hold off the wights with Sansa until the NK is killed.

7. He is the only person apart from Varys who expresses any concern whatsoever about civilian casualties in KL. Even Jon doesn't say anything on this point.

8. He's polite to Sansa and expresses genuine concern over her provoking Dany, even when she's being rude and dismissive.

9. He is revealed as being afraid of Dany, which seems like a retcon, frankly.

10. He walks into the archers' line of fire to attempt to reason with Cersei.

11. He admits to Varys he betrayed him and weirdly comforts Varys before he dies (?). He's a mensch even when he's selling you out, apparently.

12. He commits treason, knowing it will mean his death, to give Jaime a shot at convincing Cersei to surrender.

...I mean, really.

Even his one dick move the entire season--outing Brienne as a virgin in front of Jaime--was calculated to enable Jaime and Brienne's hookup. It's kind of ridiculous.

I'm not sure what the purpose of it all is. I also get the sense that Jon's heroism and concern for the masses is being downplayed so that only Tyrion is the one other than Varys wringing his hands about dead children. Jon in S7 seemed to care a lot about Dany burning cities and such, but it's Tyrion running around trying to prevent wholesale slaughter while Jon just makes sad faces.

Seriously. It’s like ...I can’t even. 🤦🏻‍♀️ And Jon. I don’t even know who he is anymore. He’s not book Jon that’s for sure. Book Jon would kick his ass. He’s not even season 4 Jon. It’s like when he died a pod person took over. For the supposed “ hero of the show” he’s pretty useless. Arya has been the MVP of season 8 and her arc, if you excuse season 7 has pretty satisfying so far. Why Dany is obsessed with him is beyond me and why his rejection apparently “ shattered her mind” is baffling. 🤦🏻‍♀️ 

[ulkis]

18 minutes ago, loki567 said:

The unfortunate thing is the show's going to almost lose all of its replayability now that we know what happens. Almost anything Jon, Jaime, Bran, Stannis, etc. Giant chunks of the show will not matter in the slightest because in the end they didn't matter in the slightest to the story. 

I know there's an argument that you can't show everything, but I wish the show had more ruthless with some of the periphery characters in order to give its main characters more screentime for development.  

Well that's the downside of starting a series that hasn't finished yet and waiting to see how that will go. (Damn it, Harry Potter movies! You could have easily cut out Grawp!) I really don't know why they thought GRRM would finish. 

[Brn2bwild]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Take it up with GRRM, he obviously feels it was important to have that point made.

Bronn has principles, he never broke his word to Tyrion.  He was born to be cannon fodder and pulled himself up by his own wits and sword to becoming powerful and safe. 

I don't care if you hate him, go for it, but I see a lot that I like in him, and in any character that begins from NOTHING and makes a life for themselves.

Bronn is a minor side character in the book series.  It's D&D who inflated his role.  If he had principles, he'd have fought for Tyrion in Season 4.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Brn2bwild

[anamika]

12 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Seriously. It’s like ...I can’t even. 🤦🏻‍♀️ And Jon. I don’t even know who he is anymore. 

D&D either really hate Jon as a character or Kit or they are terribly writers.

I do think that Arya will have a role in defeating the Others in the books. Her character is heavily involved in the magical/fantastical elements of the books and her character is closely connected to the North, weirwoods and warging.

But the thing is that in the books, characters are not restricted to just one plot/arc - they are multifaceted, complex, change and adapt to the situations around them. By the time we get to book 5, Jon is more involved in the Northern politics and plot than with the story of the Others/AOTD. He is busy plotting and strategizing with Stannis against the Boltons, conferring with mountain clans, playing the game against the Karstarks, there's a will that makes him KITN and he finally basically destroys the NW as an institution by going to war against Ramsay to save his sister. Jon's very politically savvy knowing the ins and outs of the Northern houses. 

The battle of the bastard in the books is most likely going to be a straightforward battle between Jon and Ramsay considering there are going to be direwolves involved - not a showcasing of how Sansa is now a 'boss-ass bitch' like on the show and had to help poor idiot Jon out.

D&D on the other hand restricted Jon solely to the NK/AOTD plot, turning him into a political dunce/idiot and gave over the Ramsay/North plot to Sansa - because her book story in the Vale was not that interesting to them and they openly stated how Sansa is their favorite character and they wanted her to have a more important role on the show.

Okay fine. At least Jon still has the AOTD/NK story right?  No actually. They had to justify Arya's 2 season FM arc and had to subvert expectations, so Arya was going to take out the NK and let's finish off the AOTD in an episode and make that entire plot irrelevant and all Jon gets to do is swing around a sword.  Jon was ultimately wrong about this threat and the humans fighting against each other was more important.

He was a bad military strategist on the show because as per D&D all his plans had to fail otherwise it would be 'kinda dull' in their own words.

What about  Jon's parentage? R+L=J? PTWP? Howland Reed, Lyanna and Ned? Is any of this important for Jon as a character?  No, all that is only relevant in so far as to make Dany paranoid about Jon even though noble, unambitious idiot Jon tells her he is not interested in the throne.

Any of his relationships that GRRM build up in the books important? lol, no. Arya is now Sansa's best buddy and basically told Jon that Sansa's family and he better watch out or else. Ghost? Does not even get a hug because who cares. Dany? Don't really know because it's so badly written and rushed.

They basically stripped book Jon of his characterization, story, plot, narrative themes, everything and reduced him to a plot device for other characters. By the end, it was Sansa who was making all the decisions up North and doling out military advice while Jon just stood there like a dunce.  He ultimately did nothing, achieved nothing and contributed nothing to his own story on the show. An absolute waste of a character.

[Umbelina]

 Interesting analysis of Bran published today.

[dirtypop90]

I don’t have a problem with Mad Queens Cersei and Dany because the Kings are just as mad—the “Mad King,” Visarys, Stannis, Robert Baratheon, wannabe king Euron, Joffrey, Ramsey.  Only exceptions are starks, Rob and Jon.  If they make Sansa QON, there’s our sane queen. Margery was also sane. The list of sane rulers is slim and balanced as far as female and male representation.

Edited May 15, 2019 by dirtypop90

[SeanC]

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

So as the end of 8x05, of the remaining characters who has any substantial storyline left? It seems like most of the surviving characters--Sam, Gilly, Tormund, Pod, Brienne, Davos, Yara, etc.--are pretty much done. It's possible that Sam, Brienne, Yara, etc. may only appear at the epilogue Dragonpit scene.

Sansa's arc is pretty much over, apart from her goodbyes to Bran, Jon and Arya. Her appearances may be limited to the Dragonpit scene and a few short goodbyes. We may get some closure to her relationship with Tyrion, if they go their separate ways as the spoilers indicate, maybe a proper annulment. I doubt Sansa will come south until Dany is dead, though.

 Arya's arc also seems to be over for the most part, with her choosing life over revenge and deciding to forge a new path for herself in 8x05.

 Bran needs to become king if the episode spoilers are correct. Hopefully they devote enough time to that so that it makes some sort of sense.

 Bronn needs to collect on Tyrion's promise, but that can be dealt with in a short scene.

It's not clear what's going to happen with Grey Worm, so there's another question mark.

...So pretty much the only characters left with any substantial plot left are Jon, Dany and Tyrion (as well as Bran if King Bran is going to be a thing). Since they've always been the most important characters in the show, it makes sense that their arcs would only be concluded in the final episode.

From the spoilers it sounds like after the Dragonpit we get a pretty decent chunk of epilogue that I expect will touch on all remaining main castmembers in some way.  Obviously there's Bran and the small council characters (by extension, Gilly would presumably be in KL too), Sansa and whoever's up with her in Winterfell (Brienne and Pod, I guess?), Arya taking her leave off to see more of the world, Jon meeting Tormund again, and so on.

[Brn2bwild]

5 hours ago, SNeaker said:

I think certain bad deeds cancel out certain good ones. Genocide is one of them. If Dany were a real person, the fact that she deliberately slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent civilians for no good reason SHOULD be her legacy. Not one of her good deeds can even be looked back on with admiration. According to all the people telling me I “haven’t been paying attention” Dany has always been out for only herself. Freeing the slaves was just her way of feeling good about herself and gaining admirers, and she showed her brutality while doing it. None of those moments are triumphant in retrospect. 

If Dany had made some bad decisions with good intentions that cost lives and her legacy could be considered mixed, that would be one thing. This is how her story ends, and this is now the sum total of who she was. A monster who had to be put down. And if the show tries to instill sympathy and claim those across the sea remember her as the “breaker of chains,” then that will be a legacy she doesn’t deserve. They can’t have it both ways. 

Definitely not a series I will ever rewatch a moment of.

The only way they could maybe semi-sorta redeem her a little would be if she assumed (from her height) that anyone she was burning was a Kings Landing soldier because the common folk would have already taken refuge somewhere.  That said, it would still be pretty hard to swallow.

[Heckler52317]

I think it would be interesting if Bran had warged into Drogon when the bells tolled. This has all been a long game on his part to get the Starks in power.

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Tyrion getting the saint/hero edit really got cranked to 11 in S8:

1. His belief in Cersei is the product of his genuine compassion and goodness (per the writers) and making the mistake intelligent people make of underestimating their opponent, not the product of conflicted loyalties.

2. He reveals that he has given up whoremongering and has been celibate for years, which...is nice, but why is that important information? The show hasn't touched on Tyrion's sex life since S5.

3. He is the only one to take any sort of interest in Bran as a person, while everyone else finds him creepy and is content to ignore him.

4. Jorah and Sansa crisply defend Tyrion to Dany when she (rightly!) expresses frustration with his track record, pointing out his good qualities and arguing on his behalf.

5. He chivalrously kisses Sansa's hand when they're facing certain death (...while the Hound has a scene where he sneers about Sansa being "broken in rough").

6. Despite being completely wasted in the crypts, he still picks up a dagger to fight when Sansa asks him to, and (improbably) manages to hold off the wights with Sansa until the NK is killed.

7. He is the only person apart from Varys who expresses any concern whatsoever about civilian casualties in KL. Even Jon doesn't say anything on this point.

8. He's polite to Sansa and expresses genuine concern over her provoking Dany, even when she's being rude and dismissive.

9. He is revealed as being afraid of Dany, which seems like a retcon, frankly.

10. He walks into the archers' line of fire to attempt to reason with Cersei.

11. He admits to Varys he betrayed him and weirdly comforts Varys before he dies (?). He's a mensch even when he's selling you out, apparently.

12. He commits treason, knowing it will mean his death, to give Jaime a shot at convincing Cersei to surrender.

13. He still tries to save Cersei's life several times even after she sent his own friend to assassinate him.

...I mean, really.

Even his one dick move the entire season--outing Brienne as a virgin in front of Jaime--was calculated to enable Jaime and Brienne's hookup. It's kind of ridiculous.

I'm not sure what the purpose of it all is. I also get the sense that Jon's heroism and concern for the masses are being downplayed so that only Tyrion is the one other than Varys wringing his hands about dead children. Jon in S7 seemed to care a lot about Dany burning cities and protecting the innocent and such, but it's Tyrion running around trying to prevent wholesale slaughter while Jon just makes sad faces.

I was actually thinking about this yesterday and what if it isn’t any higher emotion but the fact that Tyrion has become impotent? He found out his last sexual partner was boinking his evil dad and then strangled her. That could have caused a psychological problem.

[Maximum Taco]

39 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I was actually thinking about this yesterday and what if it isn’t any higher emotion but the fact that Tyrion has become impotent? He found out his last sexual partner was boinking his evil dad and then strangled her. That could have caused a psychological problem.

He did get a lot stupider when he stopped fucking whores. 

Would Tyrion be smart again if he just got laid? Is his actual problem severe blue balls?