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Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

Eyes High

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Meredith Quill
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Advisory: This topic is for S8 Spoilers & Spec. If your post predominantly concerns book comparisons or a character's past season actions it will be removed. 

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Minneapple

Minneapple

7 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

You all are assuming that the spoilers are real.  We don't know that they are.

We have clips. And the clips line up fairly closely with what the leakers were saying so they were at least somewhere in the general vicinity of being accurate. Rhaegal being taken out by Euron, Missandei's execution. 

I'm curious about Tyrion's trial and betraying the Starks. Friki was really convinced he was right on this one. Maybe HBO gave Friki a foiler?

5 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I mean, if the leak that Dany turns crazy is true.....I suppose Missandei getting executed would do it.  Outside of Jorrah whom she just watch die, Missandei is her closest, truest friend. I'm not saying its the path I would choose......but I've said for years that I would be shocked if Missandei and Greyworm survive the series.  

It is kinda stupid. I mean Dany hasn't shared a scene with her close true friend Missandei since the season started and now Missandei is going to be refrigerated so Grey Worm and Dany can go RAGHRAGHRAGH.

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Meredith Quill
Meredith Quill

Enjoy: I laughed. 🤣

spaceghostess
spaceghostess

^This.^ Thank you.  Months ago I posted that both Dany and Jon were at the top of my death list, but it never occurred to me that (a) she'd die crazy or (b) he'd kill her because she was crazy. Y

dragonsbite
dragonsbite

oh thank god. y'all have stopped arguing about Sansa.

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Eyes High

Eyes High

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(edited)

We might be getting a Tyrion trial after all if Tyrion and Varys have a conversation in 8x04 about betrayal...although how he can betray the Starks at this point, I have no idea.

It seems kind of cruel to have Arya hook up with Gendry only to reject him, but I didn’t think before 8x02 aired that Arya would end up with Gendry in the books, so I guess Arya/Gendry is going to be a bit of fan service. To be fair, the writers and Maisie were careful not to say that Arya is currently in love with Gendry, only that she once was and that she had sex with him because she wanted to experience it before dying.

Edited by Eyes High
Bannon

Bannon

The way this ends so hideously, it really makes the "Inside the episode" pieces, with the self important writers gasbagging, really funny, in an unintentional way.

There is real potential for a "This is Spinal Tap" mockumentary here, with a "This one goes to 11" or "No, no, their appeal is simply becoming more selective" moments.

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BooBear

BooBear

4 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

If the spoilers are true, as far as I'm concerned, the show ended at 6:10.

Me too. I won't be watching anymore episodes. HBO just got cancelled in my house hold. If these leaks aren't true I will watch later but I am sure they are. 

I would have been fine with Missandei or Rhaegal dying if it was done in a smart or reasonable way. But the clips I saw made it like Dani lost all her brains and was skipping through the tulips when that idiot Euron took out her dragon. 

Also, I would be fine with it if Dany came back strong and destroyed Cersi and Kings Landing, taking out Euron and breaking the wheel... but then for Jon to kill her for being the mad queen? Sexism alert. ANYONE who doesn't have a vagina doing this is just the winner.. if you have a vagina, you're a mad hormonal crazy woman that we have to take out.  

What do you guys think of the suggestion in the the same thread that Stannis Baratheon shows up tonight?

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stagmania

stagmania

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

I've been 100% Team Arya when she wiped out her enemies for killing her family. I don't see how I could not be Team Daenerys if she does the same.

Viewing Dany as the villain in this scenario requires the characters and audience to be extremely hypocritical. 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

You know I was actually thinking that Missandei would have been a good candidate for being an adviser on the council - intelligent, diplomatic, knows several languages and cultures. D&D brutally killing her off and having fucking Bronn on that council at the end? Fucking typical.

I won’t say I can’t believe it, because I absolutely can, but the optics of having:

- the only black woman in the story brutally murdered

- the main woman protagonist go crazy and be put down by the hero

- the entire ruling council in the end be comprised of white men who failed to do anything significant to win these wars or in fact made many mistakes with no consequences 

is terrible. Absolutely fucking terrible. 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

I doubt even GRRM knows the endings of minor characters like Missandei and Bronn in the books. They are not important enough for him to plan ahead and plot their journeys. He only knows how it ends for his major characters, which he told D&D. He did not even know what the Hound's ending was going to be and I would  think the Hound is a more important character than Missandei.

The instinct to let D&D off the hook for their horrible writing and try to lay it on GRRM is a strange one. This is their show, they are responsible for it. 

50 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

So in other words, Dany is attacked by Cersei. Goes to Kings Landing to negotiate an end to hostilities and Cersei then has the Mountain kill Missendei. But Dany is the ultimate big bad who must be put down. LMAO. Shit if this is true, I’m rooting for her 100% to burn everything. And I think most of the audience would be on her side. Jeez. 

Same. If it actually plays out this way, I don’t know how they make her the villain except to have her act insane. 

5 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

Only question right now is what was the point of the Jon and Dany romance? To make us feel bad for Jon when he has to kill Dany?

Because right now I don't. The relationship had 2 scenes. That's it. A silent love scene and a cheesy dragon montage. No talk of feelings, no plans for the future, no nothing. For all I know they broke up off screen and he doesn't even care. And I'm told they only have one scene this episode talking about his claim. So no, I don't feel bad that he has to kill someone he barely seems to care about.

Everything that happened in season 7 was such a weird waste of time...

Completely agree with this. I think there is a universe in which they could have done the final few seasons properly to develop the relationships and set up this final story. But it’s not the one we’re living in. 

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SeanC

SeanC

While these leaks aren't comprehensive, the Stark sisters seem to have remarkably little going on in the final three episodes apart from them being alive at the end.  Which is somewhat of an issue considering the show is going to be leaning really heavily on them when the backlash around how the show's female lead ends things comes.

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BooBear

BooBear

1 minute ago, Brn2bwild said:

The one small thing I cling to is that Maisie Williams states that women rule in the end.  I don't see why she would make it seem like the ending is empowering if the most powerful woman gets murdered for being justifiably upset.  Then again, maybe she only really cares about Sansa's fate.

Maisie also said she thought Arya was asexual going into this season. 

Stallion12

Stallion12

(edited)
5 minutes ago, stagmania said:
1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

I've been 100% Team Arya when she wiped out her enemies for killing her family. I don't see how I could not be Team Daenerys if she does the same.

Viewing Dany as the villain in this scenario requires the characters and audience to be extremely hypocritical. 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

You know I was actually thinking that Missandei would have been a good candidate for being an adviser on the council - intelligent, diplomatic, knows several languages and cultures. D&D brutally killing her off and having fucking Bronn on that council at the end? Fucking typical.

I won’t say I can’t believe it, because I absolutely can, but the optics of having:

- the only black woman in the story brutally murdered

- the main woman protagonist go crazy and be put down by the hero

- the entire ruling council in the end be comprised of white men who failed to do anything significant to win these wars or in fact made many mistakes with no consequences 

is terrible. Absolutely fucking terrible. 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

I doubt even GRRM knows the endings of minor characters like Missandei and Bronn in the books. They are not important enough for him to plan ahead and plot their journeys. He only knows how it ends for his major characters, which he told D&D. He did not even know what the Hound's ending was going to be and I would  think the Hound is a more important character than Missandei.

The instinct to let D&D off the hook for their horrible writing and try to lay it on GRRM is a strange one. This is their show, they are responsible for it. 

Grrm has said the ending will be the same for main characters, it'll just be secondary that's different, that's why he's getting blame.

Edited by Stallion12
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anamika

anamika

(edited)
56 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Also, apparently, Bran retires to Winterfell's opium den, for a little R&R, after the long night, thus allowing Euron's winning streak to continue.

Fucking useless Bran getting made King at the end is the absolute worst. Ugh.

But hey, atleast the memes that will come out of this will be fun.

Edited by anamika
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Colorful Mess

Colorful Mess

Just now, Minneapple said:

Unless she kills innocent people, like unleashing Drogon on King's Landing. In that case she is villainesque. 

Likely. She's playing the game of thrones with a nuke between her thighs, she gets outsmarted by Cersei. Cersei is there to make Dany GO LOWER in morality, and Jon probably is probably disgusted by them both. 

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Nightingale

Nightingale

7 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Viewing Dany as the villain in this scenario requires the characters and audience to be extremely hypocritical. 

You know they're gonna have close ups of poor innocent toddlers being burned by the Mad Queen Dany with the sad violin version of the Lannister song playing. Same as 7x04.

7 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Completely agree with this. I think there is a universe in which they could have done the final few seasons properly to develop the relationships and set up this final story. But it’s not the one we’re living in. 

Same. If they had confessed their undying love in episode 1 and talked about leaving Westeros i'd probably swoon at the Romeo and Juliet tragedy. Right now I'm baffled.

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Advance35

Advance35

Quote

Unless she kills innocent people, like unleashing Drogon on King's Landing. In that case she is villainesque. 

This I could see happening.

And it doesn't surprise me about Missandrei, If Cersei thinks there is even a CHANCE she's not going to get her way, she makes her opponent suffer as much as possible on the way to victory.  It's who she is.  It's what Sansa (though not in optimum articulate fashion) warned Jon about in Season 7 Episode 1.

Dany is down a dragon, Jorah and she just found out she is not the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.  I have no trouble picturing her, losing her grip after the loss of an additional dragon and Missandrei.

I also always thought Dany's season 2 magic tour in that Warlock Temple was a sign she was doomed.  That she would never sit on the Iron Throne.  She'd come close but............

The power plays and twist of fate have always been gaspingly brutal, the recent spoilers fit right in.  Dany has never been up against someone like Cersei before.   I don't think Tyrion has ever grasped the true horror of Cersei because he grew up with her, so he's kind of inoculated to how depraved she is.

There will be plenty of haters but I also think there are going to be plenty of viewers that are just fine with the ending.

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Minneapple

Minneapple

5 minutes ago, nikma said:

Tbh I feel proud that apparently I was the only person in this fandom who guessed that Second Dance of Dragons is between Dany and Jon and not Dany and some random extra.

I thought it would be a literal Dance of the Dragons, like with Rhaegal vs. Drogon. TBH I'm a bit disappointed because I love the dragons and wanted to see Jon vs. Dany on dragonback against each other. 

whoknowswho

whoknowswho

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Absolutely. However, some folks have invested years in this story, decades even, so that should be respected also.

ETA: Personally, I'll get over it and move on with my life in short order but not before expressing my dissatisfaction lol.

I am a book reader first but I absolutely love this show. I've spent years rewatching, watching every spoiler, theory, and basically everything GOT and ASOIAF.  (I watched the videos of the 2 leaked scenes today.)

If you start at the beginning of the series and continue, it's abundantly clear when the show "writers" ran out of George's material.  Most of season 5-7 was cringey and awful, with small parts of good in them, for one my favorite episode was The Winds of Winter, because the music was amazing. This season tops Season 7 as the most terrible. Will I get over it? Some day, but it's been a huge part of my life for years. So, we are entitled to be disappointed in absolutely terrible writing, lack of dialogue, lack of lighting, and hacked everything. 

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cambridgeguy

cambridgeguy

25 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Knowing how the story ends, Kit and Emilia's comments are now understandable. They seem both disappointed with how the story ended, but they did a good job with the PR. 

I'm sure the millions of dollars they've made will comfort them regardless of how they feel about Dany and Jon's final fate.  Even if they're one hit wonders who never do anything again that's still a lot better than 99.9% of actors.

1 minute ago, Advance35 said:

The power plays and twist of fate have always been gaspingly brutal, the recent spoilers fit right in.  Dany has never been up against someone like Cersei before.   I don't think Tyrion has ever grasped the true horror of Cersei because he grew up with her, so he's kind of inoculated to how depraved she is. 

This is also what Oleanna said in her final scene.  In any case, if Dany isn't willing to burn KL to the ground then she should just give up and go back to Essos now.  She almost certainly lacks the forces to take KL the conventional way, and even if she goes on a grand tour of the Seven Kingdoms to rally support I don't think she'll be that successful.  I don't think most people really care who sits on the Throne as long as they're left alone.  If they were going to make some grand stand for decency they would have done it after the Sept of Baelor was nuked.

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BadAssRobinArryn

BadAssRobinArryn

(edited)
10 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Cant even blame Martin over this because at least he'd build it up way better than this.  This is a rush job of epic proportions.

Oh yes, I blame him, if it turns out bad. He totally lost focus on the storyline and didn't manage to build anything up at all. That doesn't mean D and D did a good job, but Martin didn't help at all.

In fact, I'm beginning to understand some of their decisions a bit better. They knew it was coming and expect the backlash, so they are building up the other female characters (Brienne gets knighted, Lanna kills a giant, Arya kills NK himself). I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa does something great in the end as well.

Edited by BadAssRobinArryn
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Affogato

Affogato

10 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Viewing Dany as the villain in this scenario requires the characters and audience to be extremely hypocritical. 

I won’t say I can’t believe it, because I absolutely can, but the optics of having:

- the only black woman in the story brutally murdered

- the main woman protagonist go crazy and be put down by the hero

- the entire ruling council in the end be comprised of white men who failed to do anything significant to win these wars or in fact made many mistakes with no consequences  

After hearing there is a tumblr about poc on got but not looking at it, it occurred to me that the thing to do to at least throw people off would be to have made the targs, valyrians,  and the first men black. Wouldnt change anything, maybe a little more vitamin D deficiency. There would be enough intermixing so Jons parentage could be confused. 

I’d do it  

This is based on an historical period in England. There certainly were POC, maybe many many more than in the show, but I don’t think this is a Major issue with the show. It i more n issue with tv in general.

For the most  part women have a lot more agency than they would have in any historicl time period. Tywin himself was pretty indulgent of Cersei or we wouldn’t be in this predicament. 

I also think the main female protagonists are arya and sansa. Dany is not nearly as strongly written a character. There is your bad writing, you may say. Now by tring i mean we haven’t really seen how flawed she is or been made to care. 

SimoneS

SimoneS

4 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

I'm sure the millions of dollars they've made will comfort them regardless of how they feel about Dany and Jon's final fate.  Even if they're one hit wonders who never do anything again that's still a lot better than 99.9% of actors.

Obviously, money is always a good thing. I was just pointing out that their comments indicated that they weren't particularly happy with how the story ended.

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BadAssRobinArryn

BadAssRobinArryn

(edited)
19 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Killing civilians is never okay even in war. If she's burning it all to the ground including unarmed women and children, then Jon is perfectly justified in killing her.

I really don't want to talk about real world politics here, but is it really all that different from the allied group throwing bombs on Nazi Germany or even worse, the atomic bomb on Hiroshima? Civilians died there, too, including innocent children. Sometimes there is a grey area, and judging from the spoilers they do manage to portray it.

Edited by BadAssRobinArryn
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Bannon

Bannon

7 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

I'm sure the millions of dollars they've made will comfort them regardless of how they feel about Dany and Jon's final fate.  Even if they're one hit wonders who never do anything again that's still a lot better than 99.9% of actors.

This is also what Oleanna said in her final scene.  In any case, if Dany isn't willing to burn KL to the ground then she should just give up and go back to Essos now.  She almost certainly lacks the forces to take KL the conventional way, and even if she goes on a grand tour of the Seven Kingdoms to rally support I don't think she'll be that successful.  I don't think most people really care who sits on the Throne as long as they're left alone.  If they were going to make some grand stand for decency they would have done it after the Sept of Baelor was nuked.

Well, look, if we are going to envision a story where the Winterfell crew hasn't been lobotomized, as soon as they burn the bodies after the long night, they ask Bran to locate Euron's fleet and the Golden Company. Arya is sent to integrate herself into the G.C.'s camp followers, and starts to assassinate its command structure, sowing chaos. Dany and Jon stage a night attack on the fleet, when the gunners can't see anything. Cersei gets stripped of her military power pretty quickly.

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Lillith

Lillith

9 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Another image leak confirms Jaime/Brienne sex.

I don't care if this is fan-servicey as hell, this pleases me. I doubt it would happen in the books but I love show!Brienne and Gwen and NCW have crazy good chemistry. 

From what we've seen Jamie and the spoilers posted Jamie does not seem to be involved with the betrayal which also pleases me. I can totally see him going to Cersei to try and reason with her but I don't see him purposely betraying the Starks at this point. 

Also with the spoilers related to Dany, the death of Messandei (boo!) and suspecting Tyrian and/or Varys of conspiring against her could serve to make her more paranoid and reactionary. I'm not at all for her burning KL to the ground and the Unsullied going on a rampage also makes NO narrative sense and as others have pointed out, is plain bad optics.

I'm just not getting a scenario where it makes sense for Jon to just kill Dany. 

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shireenbamfatheon

shireenbamfatheon

There is this one spoiler that goes "Jon finally sees Arya" in episode 5 or 6 which sounds a bit strange. But according to the episode summary, Arya will infiltrate the city and be among the civilians crammed into the Red Keep to prevent Dany from burning it to the ground. But if she goes through with it anyway, which the leaks and leaked set pics indicate she does, then Jon might believe she's burned his sister alive as well until he later "sees her". He is not going to take that well. 

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ElizaD

ElizaD

When did the surge of bets on King Bran take place? I'm now wondering if that was due to crew members wanting to make money but not caring about the internet fame of being a leaker. Before this even fake leaks had trouble figuring out something for him to do.

If the Tyrion/Bran discussion that the unspoiled thought would lead to Tyrion redeeming himself by figuring out how to fight the NK was actually the setup to Tyrion telling the survivor council that Bran ought to be king, I can only laugh.

BooBear

BooBear

Just now, Bannon said:

Well, look, if we are going to envision a story where the Winterfell crew hasn't been lobotomized, as soon as they burn the bodies after the long night, they ask Bran to locate Euron's fleet and the Golden Company. Arya is sent to integrate herself into the G.C.'s camp followers, and starts to assassinate its command structure, sowing chaos. Dany and Jon stage a night attack on the fleet, when the gunners can't see anything. Cersei gets stripped of her military power pretty quickly.

This is my problem with it. They all have to get stupid for Dany to go this way. Why is Dany even rushing back? She should take her time. Perhaps starve out Cerci's supply lines. Take a few meetings with leaders around the globe that want to see Cerci out. Send for the second sons. Gather intelligence on what is going on. Send someone to buy off the golden company.  Make directed strikes at Cersie's forces. 

Not to mention that for 7 years Cersie has been depicted as someone who thinks she is smarter than she is. Until now... now she is a bigger threat than the night king. Nope, not buying it. On the other hand Dany has been depicted as someone who always has people underestimate her and she is very smart and savvy. 

And frankly why is Euron so loyal to Cersie?  Dany is much better looking. You would think Euron would want to be married to her as queen and would betray Cersie for what looks to be the winning team. 

And I don't buy Brienne sleeping with Jamie. She has been made fun of her whole life she would be too paranoid that Jamie was putting one over on her. No matter how much she desired him. That is complete fan service. 

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magdalene

magdalene

6 minutes ago, Lillith said:

I don't care if this is fan-servicey as hell, this pleases me. I doubt it would happen in the books but I love show!Brienne and Gwen and NCW have crazy good chemistry. 

From what we've seen Jamie and the spoilers posted Jamie does not seem to be involved with the betrayal which also pleases me. I can totally see him going to Cersei to try and reason with her but I don't see him purposely betraying the Starks at this point. 

Also with the spoilers related to Dany, the death of Messandei (boo!) and suspecting Tyrian and/or Varys of conspiring against her could serve to make her more paranoid and reactionary. I'm not at all for her burning KL to the ground and the Unsullied going on a rampage also makes NO narrative sense and as others have pointed out, is plain bad optics.

I'm just not getting a scenario where it makes sense for Jon to just kill Dany. 

I hope it's true that Jaime is not betraying his allies.  And I also hope that the Brienne/Jaime sex is true.  In the books I find their story very compelling and GC and NCW always had great chemistry.

And I always wanted Jaime to have sex with anyone else than Cersei.

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John Potts

John Potts

40 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

But what I find most laughable is that Cersei is ruling Westeros to begin with. She has no claim to the throne, none. It’s unbelievable that so many people would have supported her and been okay with it.

That's not actually true. The Lannisters are distantly related to the Baratheons (who are descended from the Targaryens). So she has some claim to the throne, just a pretty distant one. Of course, her real claim is that she's sitting on the throne and is prepared to kill anyone who tries to shift her off it. And any descent claim applies equally to her brothers, whose claim would (by male primo geniture) be superior to hers (I wish I could find the YouTube vid that set this out).

What I don't understand is how people still follow her! I get that the Mountain doesn't have any choice, but you'd think her other allies would have abandoned her by now.

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shireenbamfatheon

shireenbamfatheon

 
 
 
3 minutes ago, John Potts said:

What I don't understand is how people still follow her! I get that the Mountain doesn't have any choice, but you'd think her other allies would have abandoned her by now.

They probably wouldn't if they didn't have the Mad King's daughter on their doorstep. Dany really is the best thing that happened to Cersei.

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chrisvee

chrisvee

1 hour ago, Nightingale said:

Welp. I sure am glad I believed the leaks the second I saw them. I spent the week getting over it and now I'm sort of laughing at the whole thing. It's so BAD. 

Only question right now is what was the point of the Jon and Dany romance? To make us feel bad for Jon when he has to kill Dany?

Because right now I don't. The relationship had 2 scenes. That's it. A silent love scene and a cheesy dragon montage. No talk of feelings, no plans for the future, no nothing. For all I know they broke up off screen and he doesn't even care. And I'm told they only have one scene this episode talking about his claim. So no, I don't feel bad that he has to kill someone he barely seems to care about.

Everything that happened in season 7 was such a weird waste of time...

Yes it’s to ramp up the tragedy for both of them. The game of thrones makes love impossible for anyone who plays.

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Meredith Quill
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Advisory: This topic is for S8 Spoilers & Spec. If your post predominantly concerns book comparisons or a character's past season actions it will be removed. 

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