Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Callista]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

The idea that Jon is going to “trick” Dany into thinking he’s on her side offends me for a couple reasons: 1) Jon is a horrible liar and way too simple to pull that off; 2) Dany is not stupid and would have to be blinded by emotion to let him get close after she’s already decided he’s a traitor, so this means they’re essentially going to reduce her to desperation for his love again and have it be her ultimate downfall.

It disgusts me too. If Jon kills her that way, that makes him no better than Littlefinger, who killed Lysa in a similar fashion.  I would rather that he take over the throne somehow and kill her in a more "honorable" way--through sentencing and execution.  Unfortunately, from how the leaks describe it, it seems that he's going to do it the Littlefinger way.

[Dame sans merci]

4 minutes ago, screamin said:

I think things might've been a little different if we'd actually SEEN Jon give Arya and Sansa the news about his birth, and the conversation after they've absorbed the information.

After the first stunned reactions are over, Sansa asks: "And you say Dany knows about this."

Jon: "Yes, of course, I told her straight off."

Sansa: "And...she's okay with you being the true heir of the Iron Throne, that she's conquered cities and crossed continents to get for herself?"

Jon squirms uneasily. "Absolutely. I told her I didn't want the crown and she's absolutely fine with the whole thing. Fine."

Arya: "Wait...weren't you two in love? That means - she's your aunt, right?"

Jon looks disconsolate. "Yeah, that, well. I guess I can't...be with her...like that anymore."

Sansa: "And she's fine with that, too?"

Jon squirms again. "Well, I haven't actually told her yet. I don't think she sees it quite the same way, being Targaryen and all...but we'll work it out eventually. It'll ALL be fine. Really."

I think that Sansa might easily infer from the above that Jon is ALREADY in danger despite his protestations. With that, and Jon immediately caving in to Dany's demand to rush off to battle with their men and her own dragon still unrecovered from their wounds, it's reasonable to conclude that Jon is not currently hip to his own best interests.  I think it's also reasonable to think that telling Tyrion, who she trusts and is a longtime friend to Jon as well, that there's an alternative monarch available who might need support if the current queen starts screwing things up to a dangerous extent, would actually increase Jon's safety.

I think this post also hits on something we haven't had on the show, which is some idea of how poor Jon is processing this revelation himself. Beyond his initial 'Ned wouldn't lie!' reaction, we've had precisely nothing that tackles how he's been affected by his history and identity being turned upside down. That scene with his sisters would have been an ideal opportunity for him to actually reveal something of himself.

Jon has been an absolute cipher this season, particularly as he's been more and more marginalised.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Dame sans merci

[Bali]

10 hours ago, MrsR said:

Okay, let's review the various issues with direwolves.

1) Wolves are extinct in Ireland and because of health and safety laws, real wolves cannot be brought into Ireland. So the wolves are shot in Calgary.

2) They size up the wolves 50%. Anything beyond that and the uncanny valley syndrome kicks in. So the fur cgi is unconvincing.

3) The actors union SAG has restrictions on actors performing with wild animals. Not to mention the insurance issues.

In the prequel, a special hybrid breed of dogs has been arranged to play the direwolves thus solving these problems. You will get your direwolves.

I'm not all that hyped up on the prequels after this crapola-fest!

[Stallion12]

5 minutes ago, screamin said:

I think things might've been a little different if we'd actually SEEN Jon give Arya and Sansa the news about his birth, and the conversation after they've absorbed the information.

After the first stunned reactions are over, Sansa asks: "And you say Dany knows about this."

Jon: "Yes, of course, I told her straight off."

Sansa: "And...she's okay with you being the true heir of the Iron Throne, that she's conquered cities and crossed continents to get for herself?"

Jon squirms uneasily. "Absolutely. I told her I didn't want the crown and she's absolutely fine with the whole thing. Fine."

Arya: "Wait...weren't you two in love? That means - she's your aunt, right?"

Jon looks disconsolate. "Yeah, that, well. I guess I can't...be with her...like that anymore."

Sansa: "And she's fine with that, too?"

Jon squirms again. "Well, I haven't actually told her yet. I don't think she sees it quite the same way, being Targaryen and all...but we'll work it out eventually. It'll ALL be fine. Really."

I think that Sansa might easily infer from the above that Jon is ALREADY in danger despite his protestations. With that, and Jon immediately caving in to Dany's demand to rush off to battle with their men and her own dragon still unrecovered from their wounds, it's reasonable to conclude that Jon is not currently hip to his own best interests.  I think it's also reasonable to think that telling Tyrion, who she trusts and is a longtime friend to Jon as well, that there's an alternative monarch available who might need support if the current queen starts screwing things up to a dangerous extent, would actually increase Jon's safety.

That is what they should have done.

[Soup333]

Just now, Bali said:

I'm not all that hyped up on the prequels after this crapola-fest!

I wonder how many people will actually watch. I’m not expecting it to be scraped or anything but if these leaks are true...people are already pissed. Hard core fans - especially Dany fans -  those that have put a LOT of time into this fandom might now watch knowing that it all comes to this anyway. 

I don’t consider myself a hardcore fan at all but I have zero interest in the prequels at this point. 

[Callista]

6 minutes ago, screamin said:

I think things might've been a little different if we'd actually SEEN Jon give Arya and Sansa the news about his birth, and the conversation after they've absorbed the information.

After the first stunned reactions are over, Sansa asks: "And you say Dany knows about this."

Jon: "Yes, of course, I told her straight off."

Sansa: "And...she's okay with you being the true heir of the Iron Throne, that she's conquered cities and crossed continents to get for herself?"

Jon squirms uneasily. "Absolutely. I told her I didn't want the crown and she's absolutely fine with the whole thing. Fine."

Arya: "Wait...weren't you two in love? That means - she's your aunt, right?"

Jon looks disconsolate. "Yeah, that, well. I guess I can't...be with her...like that anymore."

Sansa: "And she's fine with that, too?"

Jon squirms again. "Well, I haven't actually told her yet. I don't think she sees it quite the same way, being Targaryen and all...but we'll work it out eventually. It'll ALL be fine. Really."

I think that Sansa might easily infer from the above that Jon is ALREADY in danger despite his protestations. With that, and Jon immediately caving in to Dany's demand to rush off to battle with their men and her own dragon still unrecovered from their wounds, it's reasonable to conclude that Jon is not currently hip to his own best interests.  I think it's also reasonable to think that telling Tyrion, who she trusts and is a longtime friend to Jon as well, that there's an alternative monarch available who might need support if the current queen starts screwing things up to a dangerous extent, would actually increase Jon's safety. That will probably be Sansa's protestation if she and Jon meet again; I fully expect him to reject it and her forever.

If they inserted a scene like this into Ep 4, then we probably wouldn't have gotten to see those oh-so-long scenes of Tyrion and Qyburn walking towards each other, or of Tyrion and Cersei staring at each other.  But the latter scenes are obviously the type that D&D prefer. 🙂

[Soup333]

1 minute ago, Callista said:

If they inserted a scene like this into Ep 4, then we probably wouldn't have gotten to see those oh-so-long scenes of Tyrion and Qyburn walking towards each other, or of Tyrion and Cersei staring at each other.  But the latter scenes are obviously the type that D&D prefer. 🙂

Or we could skipped the entire Jamie/Brienne coupling, which serves no purpose other than to reduce her into yet another scorned woman. But if the woman isn’t a Stark she must be broken so... 

[Bali]

10 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

So much shit had to happen to reach this point:

1. Not a single Northerner could be bothered to talk to sweet, engaging Missandei.  Not even Davos, who knew her already from Dragonstone, apparently.  Not even Sansa while they were stuck in the crypts.  Not even Arya, who seems drawn to outcasts.  Had anyone actually struck up a conversation with this woman, they probably would understand Dany a lot better and not be so resentful toward her.

2. Not a single Northerner, for one moment, could manage to be whole-heartedly appreciative toward Dany.  "We understand now why Jon bent the knee to you.  You're awesome!"

3. None of the Starks could bother to be gracious to Dany for a single moment.  

ETA: Yara Greyjoy, who had nothing in common with Dany and didn't flatter her in the least, managed to find common ground.  It's not that hard, Starks!

4. Jon had to be incapable of having a remotely complex conversation with Dany, even to explain why he was squicked out by kissing her.  And Dany had to be incapable of understanding why he would be squicked.

5. Dany had to lose her memory and forget that the Yunkai slaves only overthrew their masters and welcomed her after her people infiltrated the city and convinced them.  Did she ever consider sending reconnaissance to King's Landing?

6. Jon couldn't be bothered to explain to Dany that he's never been to King's Landing except when she's been, so no one there knows or cares about him.

7. No one bothers to stop and think how offensive it is that Raegar annulled his marriage to his wife and delegitimized his children in favor of Lyanna.  I'm sure the Dornish would have a lot to say about that!

The list goes on, but so much nuance has been lost the past two seasons.  They had the chance for a unique ending, but instead they just exchanged one set of tropes for another.

You also left out that Varys had to be all concerned about the people. But not quite concerned enough to oh say- maybe find a few that were still trusted to say, "Hey, this is gonna get bad. Maybe tell as many people as you can to get out of the city."

[nodorothyparker]

14 minutes ago, screamin said:

I think things might've been a little different if we'd actually SEEN Jon give Arya and Sansa the news about his birth, and the conversation after they've absorbed the information.

After the first stunned reactions are over, Sansa asks: "And you say Dany knows about this."

Jon: "Yes, of course, I told her straight off."

Sansa: "And...she's okay with you being the true heir of the Iron Throne, that she's conquered cities and crossed continents to get for herself?"

Jon squirms uneasily. "Absolutely. I told her I didn't want the crown and she's absolutely fine with the whole thing. Fine."

Arya: "Wait...weren't you two in love? That means - she's your aunt, right?"

Jon looks disconsolate. "Yeah, that, well. I guess I can't...be with her...like that anymore."

Sansa: "And she's fine with that, too?"

Jon squirms again. "Well, I haven't actually told her yet. I don't think she sees it quite the same way, being Targaryen and all...but we'll work it out eventually. It'll ALL be fine. Really."

I think that Sansa might easily infer from the above that Jon is ALREADY in danger despite his protestations. With that, and Jon immediately caving in to Dany's demand to rush off to battle with their men and her own dragon still unrecovered from their wounds, it's reasonable to conclude that Jon is not currently hip to his own best interests.  I think it's also reasonable to think that telling Tyrion, who she trusts and is a longtime friend to Jon as well, that there's an alternative monarch available who might need support if the current queen starts screwing things up to a dangerous extent, would actually increase Jon's safety. That will probably be Sansa's protestation if she and Jon meet again; I fully expect him to reject it and her forever.

I so wish we had gotten this scene.  But, you know, Jon staring blankly and "yes, my queen" as things started to spiral more and more is just as good.

[Callista]

3 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

Or we could skipped the entire Jamie/Brienne coupling, which serves no purpose other than to reduce her into yet another scorned woman. But if the woman isn’t a Stark she must be broken so... 

Unfortunately D&D like those types of scenes too: transforming strong women into weepy clinging vines. Maybe their counterpart to "All men must die" is "All women must be broken" (except Arya, I guess, because she is No One).

[Dame sans merci]

7 minutes ago, Callista said:

If they inserted a scene like this into Ep 4, then we probably wouldn't have gotten to see those oh-so-long scenes of Tyrion and Qyburn walking towards each other, or of Tyrion and Cersei staring at each other.  But the latter scenes are obviously the type that D&D prefer. 🙂

Hey, don't forget that ultimately completely pointless scene of Bronn threatening Jaime and Tyrion. How could we have coped without that weird Tarantino-inspired mess?!

[Eyes High]

43 minutes ago, Bali said:

I think that hand kiss is all we're going to get. The writers feel some sort of need to blast everything that could be good about this show. I think that no one in Westeros will ever marry again. There will be no babies. The pod-person Bran will rule by staring at nothing with his eyes all white. And by the end, I'll need the remote FAR away from me so that I'm not tempted to grab it and throw it through my tv.

It doesn't sound like there's anything else in 8x06 resolving Tyrion/Sansa from the summary, contrary to my prediction. Oh, well. I wouldn't have predicted Tyrion ordering Jon to the NW, either, or Sam ending up Grand Maester (can they even have wives and families?), and that apparently happens as well. 

Jon volunteering to join the NW to protect his brother's crown would make a lot of sense, and would be a nice callback to Maester Aemon (who did the same thing), but Tyrion sending Jon to the NW to appease Grey Worm? Much less satisfying in my opinion. 

Also, Grey Worm raging about Tyrion and Jon's supposed crimes (in trying to stop his queen from committing mass murder!) is quite something given that he attacked unarmed soldiers who had thrown down their weapons (and apparently summarily executes remaining Lannister soldiers in 8x06).

Edited May 16, 2019 by Eyes High

[MarySNJ]

10 hours ago, stagmania said:

If Sansa really cared about what happens to Jon, I don’t think she would have betrayed his trust immediately and sent him South with no warning that she’d essentially put a coup in motion. She could have gotten him killed (would have if Dany reacted logically and eliminated Jon and Tyrion after burning the city).

I’m by no means a Sansa hater, but I don’t see how you can look at her actions this season and think a primary concern for her was her family. She was looking out for her own security and her desire to rule in the north above all else. Perfectly fine and understandable motives in the context of this universe, but let’s not pretend she wasn’t willing to let Jon be collateral damage in her machinations. 

You pretty much summed up my thoughts on Sansa. I've never hated her and mostly have sympathized with her plight. But this season I've really come to dislike what she's done.

The idea that her concerns about Jon's alliance with Dany, and him going South because "Stark men don't fare well when they go south" is a convenient excuse. Yes, she wants security, but she could have had that as an ally of the Dragon Queen if she was willing to express deference.

I think they made Sansa appear envious of Dany ("Why her?") and resentful that Jon was named KitN instead of her being named QitN. She wants to rule an independent North and she learned Littlefinger's lessons and Cersei's lessons well and was willing to use those strategies to her advantage. Which I guess is why D&D want us to believe she's "the smartest person [Arya's] ever known". 

So Sansa set something in motion that would presumably make Jon King of the 7K, so she could rule in the North, and in the process put a target on Jon's back as he's now an even bigger threat to Dany's claim. That wasn't smart at all and ends up putting the whole Stark family at risk. 

All that said, if the leaks are true, Jon ends up having to kill his lover/aunt and exiled to the far North, and Sansa did get what she wanted in the end; to rule the North. 

[Soup333]

The idea that Drogon loses his mother, brothers and everyone that ever cared for him is really kinda heartbreaking. 

I also have concerns about the slave cities Daenerys liberated being able to remain free from slavery after she’s gone. But who am I kidding? No one cares about those people. 

[stagmania]

34 minutes ago, Callista said:

It disgusts me too. If Jon kills her that way, that makes him no better than Littlefinger, who killed Lysa in a similar fashion. 

That hadn't even occurred to me, but you're absolutely right. Some hero that makes Jon, and you gotta love how they're going to model Dany in this scene after the original Hysterical Woman of Westeros.

Edited May 16, 2019 by stagmania

[BitterApple]

For Dany fans (and not Dany fans) this is a great video detailing how her madness is unearned and why foreshadowing is not character development:

https://youtu.be/2mlNyqhnc1M

Edited May 16, 2019 by BitterApple

[Bianca Castafiore]

46 minutes ago, screamin said:

I think things might've been a little different if we'd actually SEEN Jon give Arya and Sansa the news about his birth, and the conversation after they've absorbed the information.

After the first stunned reactions are over, Sansa asks: "And you say Dany knows about this."

Jon: "Yes, of course, I told her straight off."

Sansa: "And...she's okay with you being the true heir of the Iron Throne, that she's conquered cities and crossed continents to get for herself?"

Jon squirms uneasily. "Absolutely. I told her I didn't want the crown and she's absolutely fine with the whole thing. Fine."

Arya: "Wait...weren't you two in love? That means - she's your aunt, right?"

Jon looks disconsolate. "Yeah, that, well. I guess I can't...be with her...like that anymore."

Sansa: "And she's fine with that, too?"

Jon squirms again. "Well, I haven't actually told her yet. I don't think she sees it quite the same way, being Targaryen and all...but we'll work it out eventually. It'll ALL be fine. Really."

I think that Sansa might easily infer from the above that Jon is ALREADY in danger despite his protestations. With that, and Jon immediately caving in to Dany's demand to rush off to battle with their men and her own dragon still unrecovered from their wounds, it's reasonable to conclude that Jon is not currently hip to his own best interests.  I think it's also reasonable to think that telling Tyrion, who she trusts and is a longtime friend to Jon as well, that there's an alternative monarch available who might need support if the current queen starts screwing things up to a dangerous extent, would actually increase Jon's safety. That will probably be Sansa's protestation if she and Jon meet again; I fully expect him to reject it and her forever.

Yes, a scene like that would have given us a little more insight behind Jon's and Sansa's behaviour. But, I personally didn't need more explanation behind Sansa'a motives tbh they were pretty clear to me.

My problem is that none of it would have solved anything. Because the reality is that Jon did screw up and Sansa was right whether we like it or not.

Jon's huge, colossal mistake was that he bent the knee. Last year I was getting annoyed by the constant repetition of that phrase but in the end it was more important than I thought. Jon bent the knee but he didn't need to. And that's huge.He chose love (ughh) over honor. He chose to betray the trust his people put on his shoulders.

If Dany had come to Winterfell not as a new ruler but as a powerful ally things would have been way more different. The smalfolk would have been more greatful to her. Sansa wouldn't have a reason to question Jon or Dany. Yes, she could have been snotty and such but with no excuse. And Jon himself could stand his ground in several occasions inclouding his conversations with Dany or the desicion to lead his people to another battle so soon after the WW one. But no, he had to follow his Queeeeeen blindly because he bent the knee and somehow lost any common sense in the process. 

This disaster is his fault as much as Dany's. Not because he told his sisters his secret or because he didn't show more tenderness towards Dany and all that stuff. But because he betrayed his people. No wonder his soldiers don't obbey him anymore. He is the Queen's puppy. And, honestly he, as a King has way more responsibility for all these than Tyrion, Varys, Sansa, and the rest. And that is what he is facing now (or he is supposed to). He f*cked up royally.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Bianca Castafiore

[kieyra]

Yara's in another show and even now she's like:

[Eyes High]

I wonder if the issue of succession will be raised at all with Bran. since that was such a big concern with Dany. Would Sansa's kids be his heirs? Would they just vote on another king/queen when he dies? Or would Bran go full God Emperor and merge himself with a weirwood as the previous 3ER did to prolong his lifespan?

Edited May 16, 2019 by Eyes High

[SilverShadow]

Considering Martin's love for Tolkien, Jon getting a variation on Frodo's ending, where he retreats from the world because he's now too traumatized and broken to continue his former life makes sense. I also wouldn't be surprised if the books explicitly make Dany Nissa Nissa.

Honestly the part that bugs me most is fucking Bran as king. If he's merely overseeing a council of equals as a neutral arbiter I'm okay with that, but him being king just bothers me. He's such a nothing character I can't see him convincing people to follow him. But if his role is more behind the scenes settling of disputes, that I could see working.  

[Stallion12]

6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I wonder if the issue of succession will be raised at all with Bran. since that was such a big concern with Dany. Would Sansa's kids be his heirs? Would they just vote on another king/queen when he dies? Or would Bran go full God Emperor and merge himself with a weirwood as the previous 3ER did to prolong his lifespan?

Book 8 will be made into a sequel spinoff where a blackfyre from the female line will take the throne. 😉

[Bali]

So, if this ending is true, does that mean that Bran will FINALLY say something other than a monotone "I'm not Bran. I'm the 3 eyed raven." Because it would be nice for him to have to learn another line. I'm sick of that one.

[Indi]

8 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

Jon's huge, colossal mistake was that he bent the knee. Last year I was getting annoyed by the constant repetition of that phrase but in the end it was more important than I thought. Jon bent the knee but he didn't need to. And that's huge.He chose love (ughh) over honor. He chose to betray the trust his people put on his shoulders.

Sansa warned him: "You have to be smarter than Father. You need to be smarter than Robb...", and what did he do? It's not like I was shocked at his stupidity. He is the absolute dumbest creature in this show, but for all his honor, he sold out his sister, Lady Lyanna Mormont and all the Lords, who named him KITN. They all swore and oath to keep the North independent and he broke it. For a love that didn't pass the test of... How long was it? A few weeks. Robb was a genius mastermind compared to this rube.

Quote

If Dany had come to Winterfell not as a new ruler but as a powerful ally things would have been way more different. The smalfolk would have been more greatful to her. Sansa wouldn't have a reason to question Jon or Dany. Yes, she could have been snotty and such but with no excuse. And Jon himself could stand his ground in several occasions inclouding his conversations with Dany or the desicion to lead his people to another battle so soon after the WW one. But no, he had to follow his Queeeeeen blindly because he bent the knee and somehow lost any common sense in the process. 

They came to Winterfell displaying airborne weapons of mass destruction and all-consuming ambition, Dany paid her the same compliments as Cersei did, when we saw her for the first time. Jon had just betrayed the North. So Sansa was snotty and ungrateful? She was Cersei-like? I wish! Cersei would have strangled him in his sleep and I would have approved.

Quote

This disaster is his fault as much as Dany's. Not because he told his sisters his secret or because he didn't show more tenderness towards Dany and all that stuff. But because he betrayed his people. No wonder his soldiers don't obbey him anymore. He is the Queen's puppy. And, honestly he, as a King has way more responsibility for all these than Tyrion, Varys, Sansa, and the rest. And that is what he is facing now (or he is supposed to). He f*cked up royally.

Jon has been nothing but an enabler and a royal bootlicker all this season. After Danny said she chose fear, he was still on her side. What the hell was he thinking? Oh, right! He doesn't think. How does he get to kill the tyrant? By faking love? Ugh!

[MarySNJ]

42 minutes ago, SilverShadow said:

Considering Martin's love for Tolkien, Jon getting a variation on Frodo's ending, where he retreats from the world because he's now too traumatized and broken to continue his former life makes sense. I also wouldn't be surprised if the books explicitly make Dany Nissa Nissa.

Honestly the part that bugs me most is fucking Bran as king. If he's merely overseeing a council of equals as a neutral arbiter I'm okay with that, but him being king just bothers me. He's such a nothing character I can't see him convincing people to follow him. But if his role is more behind the scenes settling of disputes, that I could see working.  

2

Ugh, I really hope not. I think Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa legend is meant to be a myth, like all the other myths about the hero that saves the peoples of Planetos from the darkness. It may be symbolic, e.g., Rhaegar (AA) "stabs" Lyanna (Nissa Nissa) who brings forth Jon (Lightbringer), but not a literal stabbing. Also, it never says that AA reborn is going to have to temper a sword by literally stabbing his lover in the heart. 

I've speculated that if in the end there would be no iron throne and a ruling council, like a proto-parliament or something. That wouldn't bother me, but the idea that they elect not-Bran as King, with a council that includes Tyrion the traitor and Bronn the amoral sellsword? That's some prime BS. 

Edited May 16, 2019 by MarySNJ

[onyxrose81]

1 hour ago, Soup333 said:

I wonder how many people will actually watch. I’m not expecting it to be scraped or anything but if these leaks are true...people are already pissed. Hard core fans - especially Dany fans -  those that have put a LOT of time into this fandom might now watch knowing that it all comes to this anyway. 

I don’t consider myself a hardcore fan at all but I have zero interest in the prequels at this point. 

I was never going to watch the prequels in the first place.  I most definitely will not be wasting my time.  I hate prequels anyway.  Why are they necessary when we already know how it ends?  I think prequels are lazy.  There's already plots and characters in place, so writers don't have to think too hard.  This Long Night prequel I think will be initially successful but it'll ultimately fail by the end of the season.  The GoT finale will piss off a lot of people.  

[YaddaYadda]

15 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Ugh, I really hope not. I think Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa legend is meant to be a myth, like all the other myths about the hero that saves the peoples of Planetos from the darkness. It may be symbolic, e.g., Rhaegar (AA) "stabs" Lyanna (Nissa Nissa) who brings forth Jon (Lightbringer), but not a literal stabbing. Also, it never says that AA reborn is going to have to temper a sword by literally stabbing his lover in the heart. 

Technically, if the sword Dawn was Lightbringer, then the sword still exists within the story. It wouldn't need to be tempered, but it might need to be reignited.  

[ulkis]

15 hours ago, chrisvee said:

this just makes me want to vomit

The article wasn't exactly how the poster summed it up.

[Bianca Castafiore]

Well, I will check the prequels. I love these type of shows. If I continue to watch them depends on the story and the quality. I saw today that they casted for the Long Night one of my favourite British tv actors (John Simm yay!) and I'm thrilled. Plus knowing how a story eventually ends never bothered be. I looooved Rome and it was (very loosely I admit) based on historical events. I followed Spartacus until the bitter end and I don't regret it one bit. Now THAT finale was one of the best, glorious finales in tv history imo. Sooo underrated. And we all knew it was coming. It's all about the characters and the storylines for me.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Bianca Castafiore

[ulkis]

14 hours ago, Destiny74 said:

St. Elsewhere-esque ending...

Bran wakes up at home, Winterfell, after his push from Jaime, revealing the entire show has been either A) his dream or B) some sort of precog from his 3ER ability.

That would really piss people off.

I don't know, I think a lot of people would prefer that at this point.

[GodsBeloved]

16 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

I followed Spartacus until the bitter end and I don't regret it one bit. Now THAT finale was one of the best, glorious finales in tv history imo. Sooo underrated. And we all knew it was coming. It's all about the characters and the storylines for me.

Yes!!! Spartacus is one of the most satisfying endings I've ever seen even though the bad guys won.

Edited May 16, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Jextella]

19 hours ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

I'm one of those people that always viewed Dany as a gray character with the possibility to turn mad, evil, call it whatever you want and I'm definitely a female, as the majority of my friends who watch the show and share the same opinion. But, as you said, everyone has different experiences and views the same things through different lenses .

The writting of the show has been questionable for many seasons now, so I quess I've accepted it and moved on. Obviously I'm the minority here, but I'm enjoying the season. Well, except episode 3. That was a major turning point and the beggining for all the complaints this season gets. I thought episode 5 was exceptional

/runs and hides

I agree on all counts except that I liked S8E3 - alot.

I will give the prequels a shot.  I'll need something to do with my time!

I am late to the GOT party and binged S1-S7 in just a few days right before the premiere S8.  Watching the entire thing fresh and back-to-back, I felt the writing went down a bit a few seasons ago and there were small oddball jumps in some of the smaller stories in between seasons.  None of it impacted things in a deep way, and I decided not to sweat the small stuff and enjoy the show for what it is - entertainment that has an occasional misstep - which I can't get down on given the large and complicated ground the writers and producers had to cover during the book-to-tv adaptation.

I enjoyed all seasons except maybe the ones with the religious fanatic (boring), and am enjoying the final season just as much.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Jextella

[ulkis]

13 hours ago, stagmania said:

This is ... so bad. Like, even worse than it initially sounded.

If this is true, Jon’s identity doesn’t matter even one tiny bit. He’s the true heir to the throne and it doesn’t even factor into the plot. Not one single thing about his story line this season would be changed by him just being the beloved King in the North who the people preferred instead. So glad fans spent 20 years waiting and the show devoted multiple episodes for the reveal of this utterly meaningless secret!

Yeah. I've complained about this, but I was thinking about it a little and I guess his non-reaction kind of makes sense from one angle - Jon never knew any Targaryens besides Dany and Aemon. He pretty much spent zero time thinking about them ever. So for him I guess it was a little, "okay, some random man I know nothing about was my father, okay."

Of course he should have reacted more given all the other angles, but from that aspect I can why his reaction was a bit, "okay, so there's that."

Bran as the king or leader or whatever is so stupid, why the hell would anyone vote for him?

[Dame sans merci]

2 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Bran as the king or leader or whatever is so stupid, why the hell would anyone vote for him?

Given how stupid everybody has been this season, that decision doesn't even surprise me. It is just one more moment of idiocy.

[Jextella]

Random list of comments or scenarios that seem as if there should be more meaning behind them than what we've seen - and which I'd like to see resolved in the finale:

• Winter is Coming
• Maester Aemon - "the Starks are always right eventually"
• Catlyn - "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell"
• Arya - "that's not me" when talking about being the lady of a lord
• Ned Stark - the sentencer must also be the executioner; for Littlefinger, Sansa was the sentencer and Arya was the executioner
• Tyrion - continuing to support Dany despite concerns
• Tyrion - having a private conversation with Bran about Bran's past
• Tyrion - his decision to travel to the wall with Jon didn't seem to have a point to it
• Tywin - implies he's not sure he's Tryion's father
• Bran - Ability to affect the past; did he? will he?

As interesting as all these nuances are, I am reading far too much into things.  GRRM wants his stories to be about people being people  - which doesn't lend itself well to tidy endings.  As much as I think there should be more meaning to some of these things, odds are good that there really isn't.

A fancy complex ending isn't really the point.  Maybe some of these things will be addressed, but likely not all, and it is "ok" if they aren't.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Jextella

[MrsR]

11 hours ago, rmontro said:

Conveniently, his brother gets to slide in there and take the throne.  The whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth, honestly.  And it's not a bittersweet taste, it's more like gargling with sewer water.

 You're hanging on to the concept that throne is a prize. It's not a prize, it's a curse. Bran will be no winner here.

Edited May 16, 2019 by MrsR

[Couver]

Well it seems like Drogon lives so that is something. I hope Bran leaves him alone. He lost more than most.

Not even sure what to say about Dany and Jon's endings. 8 years to build up to this and two of the major characters on the show arcs' amount to nothing.

That council is lol. Most of the people there will commit the same things the previous rulers did since they are of the same stock. I am glad to see women on it though. Especially Brienne. With her and Davos on it there is at least some hope.

So the previous 3ER was a bastard right? Otherwise why didn't he pull strings to set himself up on the throne and prevent all the killing and death we were subjected to the past 8 years? Why didn't any 3ER do it?

I would actually kind of love it if the show went there and ended it with Bran/3ER revealed as evil all along with the NK created as a check to that. That Bran manipulated everyone into removing for him. That would have been a surprising ending.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Couver

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

Technically, if the sword Dawn was Lightbringer, then the sword still exists within the story. It wouldn't need to be tempered, but it might need to be reignited.  

Is there any textual evidence that Dawn is Lightbringer, other than it having a Lightbringer-esque sort of name? I can't recall any. I read one theory that the Azor Ahai legend may be symbolic for the forging of the first Valyrian steel sword, but I still think Lightbringer is a person, not a sword. 

[Couver]

I still can't with this council 'for the people'. Why aren't there common folk on this council then? Everyone on it is titled and from families with long histories, money, power, and connections. At the very least Bron should have remained a common person...but he gets the most fertile land in the kingdom and his status elevated. So in reality the common people are still ruled by their 'betters'.

I hope the common people at least don't buy this smoke show. But given the lack of focus on any story details this season I'm sure we will never even see their reaction.

[Solace247]

21 hours ago, screamin said:

The main issue is that Dany has no trusted spymaster any more, nor anyone suitable for the position she can trust enough to hire. She can't sit on Drogon 24/7, and Grey Worm can only protect her from oncoming soldiers. Unless she wants to live a complete recluse in a fortress like Aerys the Mad, she's got to take the risk of letting people in who may or may not be trustworthy.

To be fair, she never really had a good spymaster ever. Varys was useless past Dorne. Her advisors have only existed to ensure Cersei was around for season 8 to mug for the camera.

[MrsR]

44 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Bran as the king or leader or whatever is so stupid, why the hell would anyone vote for him?

Because he doesn't want anything anymore. He doesn't want power.

[YaddaYadda]

15 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Is there any textual evidence that Dawn is Lightbringer, other than it having a Lightbringer-esque sort of name? I can't recall any. I read one theory that the Azor Ahai legend may be symbolic for the forging of the first Valyrian steel sword, but I still think Lightbringer is a person, not a sword. 

I did say "if." GRRM has a couple of interesting SSMs about Dawn, so who knows.

Edited May 16, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[ulkis]

6 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Because he doesn't want anything anymore. He doesn't want power.

Yeah, but who among them besides Tyrion would figure that out or trust it? Why would not wanting power equate to being a good leader. A lot of people don't want power because they know they would suck quite heartily having it.

[MarySNJ]

12 minutes ago, Couver said:

So the previous 3ER was a bastard right? Otherwise why didn't he pull strings to set himself up on the throne and prevent all the killing and death we were subjected to the past 8 years? Why didn't any 3ER do it?

I actually kind of love it if the show went there and ended it with Bran/3ER revealed as evil all along with the NK created as a check to that. That Bran manipulated everyone into removing for him. That would have been a surprising ending.

4

Hey, subversion of expectations!!!1!  You should see my dramatic eye-roll.

But seriously, I agree that it would definitely be a surprise if not-Bran is the final Baddie, although how would we know? Twirling his non-existent mustache? Evil villain laughter? 

Not clear in the show, but yes, Bloodraven was born a bastard and later legitimized. He was sentenced to the Nights Watch, however, so lost any right to the throne. Plus, at that point, I'm guessing he had bigger concerns than who sits on the bloody throne. The idea that the prior 3ERs never went for the throne may simply be that they weren't part of any of the 7Ks, didn't have noble blood, etc. 

[Spartan Girl]

You know what?  I'm done.  I'm not even going to comment on the episode thread after it's over.  My watch has officially ended.

I'd like to thank the direwolves/dragons for always being awesome and the cast for always doing the best with what they were given, especially and Emilia and Peter.

But no one else.  Not Dumber and Dumbass and not GRRM.  They can rot in seven hells.

[Soup333]

30 minutes ago, Couver said:

Well it seems like Drogon lives so that is something. I hope Bran leaves him alone. He lost more than most.

Not even sure what to say about Dany and Jon's endings. 8 years to build up to this and two of the major characters on the show arcs' amount to nothing.

I cannot wait until the after interview where D&D explain how it just “didn’t feel right” to have these character arcs amount to shit. Literally can’t wait. 

1 minute ago, Spartan Girl said:

You know what?  I'm done.  I'm not even going to comment on the episode thread after it's over.  My watch has officially ended.

I'd like to thank the direwolves/dragons for always being awesome and the cast for always doing the best with what they were given, especially and Emilia and Peter.

But no one else.  Not Dumber and Dumbass and not GRRM.  They can rot in seven hells.

Has it been discussed anywhere how hard this must have been for Emilia? If she’d had any hint her character would end up like this we’d have known by now. She wouldn’t have been stunned into a two-hour stupor when she got the scripts. For someone who identified with her character as much as she did it must have been crushing to see/act this final season. 

[Shanna Marie]

31 minutes ago, MrsR said:

 You're hanging on to the concept that throne is a prize. It's not a prize, it's a curse. Bran will be no winner here.

Exactly! The series (books and TV) has been pretty consistent in showing that the throne destroys those who get near it. Desire for the throne warps and corrupts people. Bad things happen to good people who get close to it. Robert must have at one time been decent for someone like Ned Stark to be friends with him, but he did terrible things in pursuit of the throne and was a terrible king. Aerys was willing to destroy his people rather than give up his power. Joffrey was warped by growing up knowing he'd have that power. Stannis might have been a decent king -- he was the one claimant who heeded the NW's call for help -- but he turned to dark magic and executed his daughter to try to get the throne. Renly betrayed his brother in trying to jump the line of succession and pretty much destroyed both their chances (if they'd joined forces instead of fighting each other, maybe they'd have stood a chance). Viserys was about as warped as Joffrey. About the only decent person we've seen hold the throne in this series (not talking about history or prequels) was Tommen, who never expected to hold it, and who knows what would have happened to him or what will happen in the books. The people who come out okay are the ones who turn away from it. Ned's life went differently from Robert's, but then his family was destroyed when he came into the throne's orbit again. Aemon went to the Wall and turned out okay. So I've always expected that Dany was on a path to bad things because of her obsession. The series has been clear that wanting that throne is a bad thing. If they destroy the throne and reboot, maybe it will change things, but I don't think being in charge is an outcome Bran would really want. 

But he did kick off the first book, so there's some symmetry there. 

[MadameKillerB]

In an article linked in the Media thread about Bryan Cogman, Liam Cunningham was said to cursing up a storm at the table read for Season 8. I wonder, specifically, what pissed him off so much?

[Affogato]

19 hours ago, stagmania said:

This essay is excellent and brilliantly lays out the feminist conversation around the show’s female characters and the misogynistic undertones in both the show and the books. Highly recommended reading: https://dangerouscharacters.substack.com/p/who-wins-who-dies-game-of-thrones

This article is absolutely right from its perspective. Also, speaking as a woman who grew up reading a lot of sciencefiction written by men and for men it is hard to ... not see things from this angle. There are a lot of writers i won’t reread. However, like any one perspective, it can be limiting. I don’t think Martin or D&d are misogynists. I also am fairly sure, although I could be wrong, that none of them have named themselves feminist (except in a general support of women’s rights, anyway).  The books/show are indeed about power but not necessarily about women and power  

Dany would make a fairly conventional and boring man. arya a fairly conventional boy.  Jon is fairly conventional in the show and it makes him dull. Fantasy is in general fairly conventional. Making them women makes them a little more interesting. 

Dany has a heroes arc. She must have flaws to overcome and she has shown and struggled with these flaws throughout the seasons. This season her flaws arent examined and we don’t see her struggle to overcome them. Enough time isn’t allotted to point of view, I think. She fails suddenly. It almost certainly what is intended for her and could have happened the same way if she was a women or a man.  

Ok I have a hard time pecking this out on my phone. As nea as I can tell the characters are strong well rounded character id somewhat damaged by the execution of their endgame. I guess it would have been good to have danaerys the conquering hero but I’m not a huge conquering hero fan so I’m not too upset about it. 

[Raachel2008]

3 hours ago, Soup333 said:

Or we could skipped the entire Jamie/Brienne coupling, which serves no purpose other than to reduce her into yet another scorned woman. But if the woman isn’t a Stark she must be broken so... 

Which Stark women? Catelyn, murdered after watching her son, daughter in law and unborn grandchild killed, as well as lot of her friends? Sansa, raped by Ramsay, used by Joffrey and Littlefinger? Arya, who saw he father executed when she was a child, was beaten and made blind by a assassin who trains children to be murders? 

I’m sorry but all women in this show suffered tons, and half of the men, too. Brienne got it “easier” than most of them. 

[QuinnM]

Just now, Raachel2008 said:

I’m sorry but all women in this show suffered tons, and half of the men, too. Brienne got it “easier” than most of them. 

Well just because of the number of Unsullied we could say more men than women.