S05.E13: The Soviet Division

[ChromaKelly]

22 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I would give seasons 3 and 4 at least a sold B -- but I can't argue with the D+ grade for this season, unless I'm grading on a curve relative to other shows.  I still really LIKE the show, but this season was so disappointing and frustrating.  

Part of the problem is that I found William and the infectious diseases plot from last year far more compelling than ... wheat.  Also, the beginning of the season carried over interesting questions: had William told Stan anything that would later click and make him suspect P and E?  Would Paige dating Stan's kid create risks?  Would there be follow up on Gaad's murder?  Would Oleg and Stan have to keep up some kind of contact?     All of that got dropped or handled in a pretty boring way, and we spent all season watching people brood and mope.  

Agree x1000. I really thought those were going to be the plotlines for this season. Last season's final few episodes were so tense, between the William plot, Martha, Gaad. I remember being on the edge of my seat. This season was just so blah. When the Elton John montage was going on and we were watching Paige get in the car, my husband said "This show really knows how to kill time." 

[SunnyBeBe]

It's hard to say what the creators had in mind when the show first started.  I know that I always thought that the spies would remain spies and always be spies.  That they would keep their cover and their kids, friends, neighbors would never know. One day, they would be caught, die, or return to Russia, without involving their children.  Oh well....I was wrong on that.  I do think that in THEORY it sounds interesting and amusing to have the teen daughter, poke around in the secret, DEMAND to know the secret and then BE TOLD about this secret.  In theory, it's much better than what the writers have to come up with AFTER that is done.  They then have to come up with a lot of AFTERMATH and cleanup that just didn't work for me this season.  I wonder if the long plan worked out as well as they hoped.  For me, the the REVEAL TO PAIGE and aftermath is the most disappointing part of the series. So many things that happened POST Paige reveal made no sense, like Pastor Tim confession, he and wife allowed to live, asking advice from Pastor Tim, etc.    I hope we are spared more of the same with Henry.  

[kay1864]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Quote

I can't see Martha raising an orphan, when she's barely literate herself.  (although maybe they would both be learning Russian together?)

A toddler wouldn't be particularly fluent either. So a perfect setup.

Well that was my point, that if Martha adopted her, the toddler wouldn't be learning Russian at home (where most children learn to speak),  Even a year or so later, not with the right accent, and likely not with a very full vocabulary.

Although the toddler could pick up fluent English--unless Martha was told by the adoption agency not to speak it around her.

[Ina123]

23 hours ago, Bannon said:

All I can tell you is that I was narced on in the era, at about that age. There's a reason the term "narc" exists, and it's because some people drop dimes. You get a group of people approaching 10, and you can have strong confidence that somebody will get into a situation where doing so is highly likely, as opposed to strong confidence that the secret will be kept.

Also, let's not forget that laws against drug use were enforced on a much higher level and punishment was much more severe in "those days". I think having a pot party with Kimmie and her friends was ill advised for that time period.

[Dowel Jones]

21 hours ago, teddysmom said:

So they're doing a time jump to 2017?  Paige gets a job as an intern at the White House?  Elizabeth becomes press secretary? Now we're talking! 

When she body slams a reporter, they'll damn sure know about it.

Quote

There’s never been any hint of Paige being ready to be any kind of professional and they don’t put characters together just because they exist on the same show

They might have dropped a hint in the scene where Paige is watching the news about President Reagan's infamous line "The bombing starts in five minutes."  It was so isolated from everything else that I took it to show some increasing distrust of the USA on her part.

I would think the KGB would be developing far more sophisticated methods of surveillance once they found out Breland was going to be promoted to such an influential post.  Tape recorder in a briefcase, indeed.  I think it has served its purpose and besides, poor Philip doesn't want to listen to endless conversation about breakfast at Denny's, or the Yankees, or whatever.  He probably dreams as he listens... "If only there were a computer programs that transcribes spoken word to written word...."

Edited June 1, 2017 by Dowel Jones

[jrlr]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

This is exactly the kind of crazy the show’s never had any interest in. There’s never been any hint of Paige being ready to be any kind of professional and they don’t put characters together just because they exist on the same show. Elizabeth is telling Tuan to ask Vietnamese intelligence to send him a partner. They don’t even work for the same country. And the only kind of helping out Paige would be suitable for would be if Philip had her filling out forms at the travel agency.

Thanks for clarifying Tuan working for Vietnamese intel.   That's what I assumed, but then his holier-than-thou-comrade speech about reporting E&P's bourgie attitudes puzzled me and made me wonder if he could be working directly for Russian intel.  

[ChromaKelly]

I just kept waiting for *something* to happen. Pastor Tim and wife to get a bullet in their heads as they exit the plane in Ecuador. Tuan to get a bullet or at least a smackdown. Henry to blurt out he knows about the spying. Something! Ugh, it just felt so anticlimatic. Wow, Martha gets an orphan as a thank you for your service. That was the most exciting thing to happen.

[TaurusRose]

On 5/31/2017 at 11:05 AM, Umbelina said:

At least someone slapped Paige.  Thanks for that writers.

Yeah, man. I still can't stand that girl.

This was underwhelming at best.  There's nothing more to add to what's already been said, except I hope this is the last of Martha, too.  Every time she appears it feels like fan pandering.  I don't care about her or her life is Russia.  She lost me when she kept being "Clark's" fool even when she knew what he was.  The actress is superb, but no more Martha.

[Mrs peel]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 11:02 PM, SailorGirl said:

That orphan girl was adorable and Martha finally may have something in her life that is hers unconditionally -- too bad she had to betray her country to get it -- a single woman just cannot get a break! :-D

Question: Did anyone else think Elizabeth was rethinking leaving? She was looking at all the trappings of an American life (the tv, the nice kitchen, the closet full of clothes and awesome 80s boots). . . was she realizing she wouldn't have those things back in mother Russia and maybe thinking life in America . . not SO bad . . . 

I thought Elizabeth was recognizing what she would be giving up, and more importantly, what the children would be giving up.  I think all the Russia storylines were to show that things would be terrible for the family if they returned.  Sure, they'd have access to the "good" grocery store, but Paige and Henry would be miserable, and Philip would probably be miserable too.   Rampant corruption would bother Elizabeth; Philip doesn't seem to believe in anything anymore (knowing that the USSR weaponized the serum and used it in Afghanistan was devastating for him). 

I'm sort of glad they seem to be moving to the idea that P&E don't return to the USSR; I never thought that was a realistic option for the family. 

I thought the Martha scene incredibly sad.  They were going to give her a child like it's a toy to make her happy. 

Edited to add - I thought the interaction with Tuan was interesting (except the adoption).  Useful advice from E; Tuan was very on-point for the Vietnamese by talking about "bourgeois" behavior by P&E.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Mrs peel

[SunnyBeBe]

Maybe, I didn't properly understand how P E & caring about people, could be interpreted as being bourgeois.  I associate that word with caring about material goods.  When did P & E demonstrate a love of material goods in front of Tuan? He's never been to their house?  They went bowling, but ,that was a bonding opportunity with Pasha and his family.  So was clipping coupons.  I'm not following why he said they had bourgeois focus.  To me, he was just throwing out insults and/or the writers wanted to make clear what they were driving at, just in case we didn't get it from the scene of LIz staring affectionately at her shoes and kitchen appliances.  lol.  

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

Maybe, I didn't properly understand how P E & caring about people, could be interpreted as being bourgeois.  I associate that word with caring about material goods.  

 

I think it means they were putting concerns like the welfare of this one kid above the welfare of all. It doesn't have to be just about material goods. Caring about whether Pasha lived or died or got hurt was a bourgeois concern.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

 

But I love that we all have so many different interpretations of Stan's reaction.

I thought it was cheap trick, used on lesser shows all the time.

Oooooh, lookie at us, we'll make everyone wonder about what's up between Stan and the blond all season long!  There will be people talking about IT, about US, all summer too, so let's not tell them shit!

Stage directions to Stan:

Look vague, so some will thing you're clueless about her, and some will think you are catching on, and some will think she's KGB, some FBI, some Mossad!  They will be SO excited to tune in next year!  Hey guys, let's do that with all the plots!  We'll be so artistic and people will talk and speculate for months!  We don't have to wrap up any plot points, so let's throw in a few dozen more!  Cool Beans Joel!  Right on Joel!

 

Fuck that shit.

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think Philip didn't destroy the tape because ultimately he does see how important it is and he couldn't see making that decision on his own without talking to Elizabeth. He knew she'd say they had to stay, but he accepted that.

Elizabeth is his boss lady.  She calls the shots.  The only time that didn't work was when he stupidly marched off to Pasha's house last week, knowing there was FBI surveillance and leaving poor Tuan and Liz to desperately trail after him 

In any real world that did blow their cover.  It takes two seconds to check their names against a pilot who is married to a Flight attendant named whatever at such and such airline, based in DC.  Seriously?  Philip practically begged the FBI to catch them right then and there.  Interesting that the phone was bugged by their watchers, I wonder if the rest of the house is?

Another delayed gratification plot point left dangling this season.

2 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Well that was my point, that if Martha adopted her, the toddler wouldn't be learning Russian at home (where most children learn to speak),  Even a year or so later, not with the right accent, and likely not with a very full vocabulary.

Although the toddler could pick up fluent English--unless Martha was told by the adoption agency not to speak it around her.

The Soviet union encouraged it's young people to become fluent in another language, or so I've been told.  French and English were the biggest ones I think.

44 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Maybe, I didn't properly understand how P E & caring about people, could be interpreted as being bourgeois.  I associate that word with caring about material goods.  When did P & E demonstrate a love of material goods in front of Tuan? He's never been to their house?  They went bowling, but ,that was a bonding opportunity with Pasha and his family.  So was clipping coupons.  I'm not following why he said they had bourgeois focus.  To me, he was just throwing out insults and/or the writers wanted to make clear what they were driving at, just in case we didn't get it from the scene of LIz staring affectionately at her shoes and kitchen appliances.  lol.  

Tuan is a soldier in a war, just like Elizabeth has been until she watched Philip go completely nuts, even wanting to break down a back door to save one person, and realized he is more of a danger to her on missions than a help with this mental/emotional breakdown we've watched all season long.

Tuan, and I believe Elizabeth, if Philip wasn't there watching her, would be perfectly willing to sacrifice dozens to accomplish their goals of saving millions of people from the USA aggression, bombs, wheat poisoning (eye-roll) and chemical and biological weapons.

We kill kids all the time with our drones and the most expensive weaponry in the world.  Collateral damage. 

Tuan was right.  I'm glad he reported them.  So what if we saw one kid to tear at our heartstrings pretend to kill himself after being expertly instructed by Tuan?  Because we "know" him?  So that makes it bad, but hundreds of kids are killed all over the world every day.  That's reality, and probably the only realistic plot they had all season (aside from the whole ridiculous turn Pasha's mom into a super spy that can get a DEPUTY CHIEF OF STATION to spill secrets while fucking.  Or you know, blackmail him because of it.)

Edited June 1, 2017 by Umbelina

[scowl]

I was excited about this season when it looked like they were going to focus on the Soviet Union again (oh yeah, that's where P & E are from) so it wouldn't be such a generic spy show. I thought they might focus on poor Martha struggling in a country she knew nothing about. What did I get? A season-long investigation of a Soviet grocery store. Like with the Nina arc I ignored everything that was subtitled and I don't think I missed anything.

[Umbelina]

You missed quite a bit if you won't read subtitles.  Oleg and his parents were about the only interesting thing on the show all season long.

[crgirl412]

On 5/31/2017 at 9:29 AM, stagmania said:

As soon as Philip said the decision was made, followed by a montage with my favorite Elton John song, I knew it wasn't made and they weren't going anywhere. I didn't expect the deus ex machina to come from the Kimmy plot, though, so they got me there.

I liked this season overall, though I share some of the frustrations of everyone else. I think this idea of focusing on P&E's burnout and depression probably would have worked better if the rest of the compelling cast of characters we knew were still in place and fueling the story. As it was, they set this emotionally remote and downbeat tale against the backdrop of a bunch of new characters we don't care about, and so much of it fell flat. 

But I appreciated the evolution we saw here. Elizabeth is truly changed; she's barely recognizable as the woman who began the series, and that change is borne of allowing herself to love and trust Philip, and as a result open herself more emotionally to others. Her steely core is still intact, but the way she sees her family, the people they work with, and her life is fundamentally different. I think her speech to Tuan about needing someone was both spot on and also a portent of doom for her plan to shoulder the burden for herself and Philip moving forward. It's touching that she wants to save him, but they've only made it as far as they have because they've been in it together.

I also really appreciated that lovely grace note for Martha, and I truly hope it's the last we see of her. It's a better ending than I ever could have imagined, and I'd be very content to picture her living a quiet, happy life with a daughter that will fulfill her more than Clark ever could. 

Amen. 

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth is his boss lady.  She calls the shots.  The only time that didn't work was when he stupidly marched off to Pasha's house last week, knowing there was FBI surveillance and leaving poor Tuan and Liz to desperately trail after him 

In any real world that did blow their cover.  It takes two seconds to check their names against a pilot who is married to a Flight attendant named whatever at such and such airline, based in DC.  Seriously?  Philip practically begged the FBI to catch them right then and there.  Interesting that the phone was bugged by their watchers, I wonder if the rest of the house is?

We kill kids all the time with our drones and the most expensive weaponry in the world.  Collateral damage. 

Tuan was right.  I'm glad he reported them.  So what if we saw one kid to tear at our heartstrings pretend to kill himself after being expertly instructed by Tuan?  Because we "know" him?  So that makes it bad, but hundreds of kids are killed all over the world every day.  That's reality, and probably the only realistic plot they had all season (aside from the whole ridiculous turn Pasha's mom into a super spy that can get a DEPUTY CHIEF OF STATION to spill secrets while fucking.  Or you know, blackmail him because of it.)

My thing is why would the agent even bother to look them up? I assume he's seen all 3 of them before, heard them on the phone with the family, etc. It's not like this was their first visit to the family home. They were friends with the family, not strangers who came out of nowhere to their home. It wasn't a big deal imo no matter how the show tried to play it. Even Philip almost breaking in could have easily been explained- Pasha said disturbing things to Tuon- which he did-and they were very worried. And oh look- the kid tried to commit suicide. Who would even think twice about it? And if they'd waited and not come over the kid might have died-who knows when his parents would have found him, and it is incredibly presumptuous to assume the mom would have just decided to go home after her kid died. There's no telling really. Tuon got lucky that Pasha survived. That's it; that's all imo. Elizabeth and Philip are both pretty burned out, and really they both should be totally done. But, Tuon is going to have a very short career if his go-to solution is always that extreme and so poorly thought out.

I do agree that we create collateral damage every day, and that's how it goes during war. 

[Umbelina]

Quote

My thing is why would the agent even bother to look them up?

Because they are guarding him.  It's basic SOP for spies, they would know everyone he was in contact with.  Actually, now that I think of that?  It's another plot point with a gaping hole.  The FBI would already have investigated them, and anyone else that was in their house.

That agent looked suspicious, but then again, he may have been given the same stage directions as Stan.  "Give us something viewers can read any way they want to so we can have a lot of buzz during the off season!"

This though?  A dramatic near death of his kid, and his wife about to defect back home?  Oh hell yeah, they should look at this top to bottom now.  Will they?  Who knows, they didn't finish much of anything this season, hopefully they will get back to being good writers again next season.  I doubt it though, since they said they've already written it.  sigh

At least the wrote Pasha's dad as someone with a brain.  He knows better than to go back to the USSR, even if he doesn't know about his wife and the agent.  Speaking of that, the FBI must be incredibly stupid if no one picked up on that little detail, especially because they are considering him for Deputy Chief of the toughest station in the world.

ETA

If that guy she fucked is that good an agent?  He will have already told his bosses about his contact with a deserter from that country.  You aren't allowed to keep things like that to yourself, so we shall see.  Reporting all contacts like that is kind of a big deal.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Umbelina
because I'm the typo queen today apparently

[SunnyBeBe]

Ref. the agent eyeballing Brad.  To me, anytime you bring attention to yourself, it creates more of a risk that you'll be checked out.  To me that entire operation was super risky.  But, I agree that just walking over there that night, under the ruse of taking a walk, wasn't anything shocking.  Their mission with this family started out , BEFORE they knew that the wife was having an affair.  I don't think I ever did understand what P & E were trying to do with Alexi. in the beginning. Can someone remind me? lol He's a food scientist right? Did they ever establish his role in the super designer wheat?

[Erin9]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Because they are guarding him.  It's basic SOP for spies, they would know everyone he was in contact with.  Actually, now that I think of that?  It's another plot point with a gaping hole.  The FBI would already have investigated them, and anyone else that was in their house.

That agent looked suspicious, but then again, he may have been given the same stage directions as Stan.  "Give us something viewers can read any way they want to so we can have a lot of buzz during the off season!"

This though?  A dramatic near death of his kid, and his wife about to defect back home?  Oh hell yeah, they should look at this top to bottom now.  Will they?  Who knows, they didn't finish much of anything this season, hopefully they will get back to being good writers again next season.  I doubt it though, since they said they've already written it.  sigh

At least the wrote Pasha's dad as someone with a brain.  He knows better than to go back to the USSR, even if he doesn't know about his wife and the agent.  Speaking of that, the FBI must be incredibly stupid if no one picked up on that little detail, especially because they are considering him for Deputy Chief of the toughest station in the world.

ETA

If that guy she fucked is that good an agent?  He will have already told his bosses about his contact with a deserter from that country.  You aren't allowed to keep things like that to yourself, so we shall see.  Reporting all contacts like that is kind of a big deal.

There really is no show if everything has to be realistic. Or the entire series would have been pretty dull. They do a good enough job imo. It doesn't bug me anyway. So, I'm not overly concerned about the idea that realistically they'd have already vetted them. It is what it is. Apparently, NO ONE was concerned about Philip, Elizabeth and Tuon befriending the family; they were ordered to do so.  So, under those circumstances that carried the entire season, there was no real reason to be concerned about Philip going over there. It can't be both ways. Either they can be friends with the family, or they can't. Ergo, I'm going with Elizabeth and Tuon over-reacted. Especially Tuon in his report.

I don't see anything suspicious about Pasha's near death leading to them going home. Kid was miserable from day 1. So was the wife. That was common knowledge. There's not really anything suspicious about it imo. What they did was exacerbate an already bad situation. Not actually create it. 

I do agree that Alexei was right to stay in the U.S. Going home really wasn't an option for him. 

[Umbelina]

But they are SPIES.  It's their job to be suspicious.  ;)

Philip wasn't calmly walking over there, he was storming over there with wife and "son" trailing after him.  Elizabeth saved Philip's ass by grabbing his arm to make it look slightly more normal right after Tuan said the FBI was right around the corner.  THEN Philip, while being watched, was going to break into the house! With the FBI agents watching him!  Tuan's pleas went no where.  It was only the luck of the parents turning up that save Philip, Elizabeth, and Tuan from life in a federal prison.

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Philip wasn't calmly walking over there, he was storming over there with wife and "son" trailing after him.  Elizabeth saved Philip's ass by grabbing his arm to make it look slightly more normal right after Tuan said the FBI was right around the corner.  THEN Philip, while being watched, was going to break into the house! With the FBI agents watching him!  Tuan's pleas went no where.  It was only the luck of the parents turning up that save Philip, Elizabeth, and Tuan from life in a federal prison.

To be fair, Philip actually did have a ready made excuse for what he was doing. His kid just told him Pasha was talking about suicide. He had him call the house and there was no answer and they know Pasha should be home and they're worried.

Granted, the idea of Philip not caring about how it looked, which for all we know he was not supposed to, is annoying and ridiculous. Is he playing out what he said about Tuan wanting to get caught or in trouble so he'll be sent home? That's just annoying and stupid. But Brad the pilot actually did have a reason to break into the house and he wouldn't even have to act to play it out. I'm sure Tuan would be angry about the reason but that also could have been avoided if he'd talked to his partners first. With a few tweaks there would have been less risk--for instance, maybe arrange to be going over there at a time when Pasha will cut his wrists, or tell Pasha to wait until he hears his parents coming home at least. It's fine if the suicide looks like a cry for help instead of a serious attempt. Mom's reacting to the blood, not checking out his wounds to make sure he's serious. There was no reason that plan had to go down that very night. Tuan was seeing himself as the super serious agent here but he was also acting like an impatient kid and clearly didn't have a realistic idea of the possible fallout of an actual suicide. (Although again, this all works fine to their advantage--all that thinking would be perfectly in character for a real teenage boy coming up with a plan to help his friend.)

[Umbelina]

Tuan was like Elizabeth.  He had an inspiration, thought it would please them and the KGB, and followed it.  He also told them they needed to spend more time with him, maybe he suspected the FBI guys had noticed something, or Pasha or the parents had said something, maybe it was his spy tingly senses.  Also maybe he would have told them if they were ever around!

I agree for the most part though.  Excuse or not, that would have or could have blown Tuan's cover too, just the whole suicide thing. 

Either way, Philip wasn't thinking like a spy to make such a scene with storming over there and Elizabeth and Tuan running to keep up. 

We'll see if the show gives the FBI any brains at all.  If they do the most basic spy work of all, checking this odd situation out, especially when Pasha's mom defects back?  All 3 of them are blown.

[Erin9]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

To be fair, Philip actually did have a ready made excuse for what he was doing. His kid just told him Pasha was talking about suicide. He had him call the house and there was no answer and they know Pasha should be home and they're worried.

 But Brad the pilot actually did have a reason to break into the house and he wouldn't even have to act to play it out.  

Exactly.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, and a neighbor could have seen or heard him do it, and called the cops.  FBI and Cops on the scene where 3 illegals are with defected soviets!

Smart!

Ahem

[SunnyBeBe]

Do you think the writers of this show put as much time, thought and focus as the people on these boards do? lol  (For Season 5.)

[pavlovsbell]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think it means they were putting concerns like the welfare of this one kid above the welfare of all. It doesn't have to be just about material goods. Caring about whether Pasha lived or died or got hurt was a bourgeois concern.

I agree with this. Tuan was referencing Marxist and Maoist ideology with "self-criticism" and "petty bourgeois" (petite bourgeoisie as opposed to the proletariat revolutionary). He's telling Philip and Elizabeth that they are not being good revolutionaries/soldiers. That's why he admitted to his own arguably "petty bourgeois" failing in his self-criticism and accused Philip and Elizabeth of doing worse, because they placed their personal concerns over the mission, in his opinion.

[crgirl412]

17 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Do you think the writers of this show put as much time, thought and focus as the people on these boards do? lol  (For Season 5.)

Clearly not!!  :(

[pennben]

13 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Do you think the writers of this show put as much time, thought and focus as the people on these boards do? lol  (For Season 5.)

Yes, I do. I think they probably put in much more time than all of the people on this board collectively. That doesn't mean folks will necessarily agree that the stories they told are good, but they are the stories that they wanted to tell this year. 

I enjoyed this season even though it was such a different feel/pace than previous years. I guess I thought they would kick off some big stuff in the finale, but they are apparently saving that for next season.  

[sistermagpie]

41 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Tuan was like Elizabeth.  He had an inspiration, thought it would please them and the KGB, and followed it.  He also told them they needed to spend more time with him, maybe he suspected the FBI guys had noticed something, or Pasha or the parents had said something, maybe it was his spy tingly senses.  Also maybe he would have told them if they were ever around!

They were around. He talked to Elizabeth, then got the idea in the middle of the school day and set it up for that night, when they were also there. This wasn't something that happened fast because he couldn't get in touch with them. By his own admission, it popped into his head and he set it in motion pretty much right then.

 

10 minutes ago, pennben said:

Yes, I do. I think they probably put in much more time than all of the people on this board collectively. That doesn't mean folks will necessarily agree that the stories they told are good, but they are the stories that they wanted to tell this year. 

Agreed.

[Macbeth]

5 hours ago, Mrs peel said:

I'm sort of glad they seem to be moving to the idea that P&E don't return to the USSR; I never thought that was a realistic option for the family.

I agree that their moving back to USSR would be a hard for them and a complete nightmare for the kids.

But it looks like they will probably go back in the end.  I think that is why Phillip's son and brother have been introduced to the storyline. 

So the twist will be - Philip, who in the S1, was the most willing to embrace the American life-style, will have the easiest time as he is finally reunited with his family.

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

There really is no show if everything has to be realistic. Or the entire series would have been pretty dull. They do a good enough job imo.

Exactly. This isn't a documentary. It's a drama about a marriage set within a spy framework. They use real-life information to inform the spy stuff, but they have to take some license, or everyone would be complaining about how boring it is to watch stakeouts and dead drops. Heh.

[Umbelina]

I honestly can't see any way Center is going to let them go home.  Paige is a huge deal to them, and I'm sure they want Henry as well, but the writers have decided to drop that huge plot point for some inexplicable reason.

They need at least one parent to stay with the kids, and Elizabeth is the only choice there. 

We know they no longer trusted Philip, anvils falling on our heads about that and his depression all season, and now Tuan's filed a report on him as well.  He's done.  They will want Elizabeth to stay in the game.  Claudia is leading them on.  Unless of course, the writers have decided to drop all semblance of KGB reality and that may be possible.

All our spies are depressed this season.  Stan, Oleg, Phil, and because of Phil, Liz is, and Gabe as well.  A season of unrelenting depression, just what everyone wants to watch.

ETA

I guess they could set it up so another illegal family adopts Paige and Henry after their "car crash" or whatever freak accident "deaths."  That way they could send Philip and Elizabeth home, but still keep their second generation illegals.  They all pack their bags to leave and as they board the ship or whatever, KGB grabs the kids, more KGB grab Phil and Liz and shove them on the ship.  Surprise!  We decided to go another way.  Understand this mission and you can live out your lives in the Soviet Union.  Bitch?  Prison for you two, but the kids are staying in place, after all, we will keep you alive if they do as we say.  Start here:  sign this will that designates these people to care for your children in case of death.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Umbelina

[Christina]

If this entire season was compressed into five or six episodes, I could have probably looked the other way and enjoyed the ride. Thirteen episodes of moping and disillusionment with no relief all the while I was forced, as a viewer, to ignore that the characters couldn't pick up on the clues that were left for the viewers to catch, things they would have caught in past seasons, made it hard to slog through this season. 

If this season was supposed to be about Philip and Elizabeth growing closer, as I'm to believe from the interview with J&J, that story was told in about an hour airtime of the thirteen episode season. Paige coming to grips with her parents being spies and her fear also dragged way too long to be interesting. There is another kid on this show, but he was only shown for about ten minutes of airtime, so let us just forget about him this season.

[Dowel Jones]

One thing I wonder about is the fact that Tuan showed Pasha how to cut himself effectively but not deathly, as he admitted.  What's going to happen if Pasha's parents question Pasha about the suicide attempt and he reveals that Tuan talked him into it?  I don't see him hanging around that family anymore regardless if they go home or not, and he doesn't have an operation after this.  He's basically an orphan.

[dr pepper]

"They can find someone else to get the information from Kimmie" Like, yeah! Kimmie and her friends come pre-groomed for whatever less scrupulous agent steps in as Philip's replacement.

Edited June 2, 2017 by dr pepper

[AllyB]

I wish we'd been told just what it was about the USSR that Pasha missed so much. I never felt his objections to living in the US were very ideological. So was Pasha just homesick? Did he miss particular friends or a lover? Was he especially talented at sports/academics in a way that he was feted for in Russia but was not considered important in the US? Did he desperately miss his extended family? Was it just that he was bullied in school in the US? And if one or some of those were the reasons, was he very, very stupid? Because while I could see him resenting his father for moving the family to the US without their knowledge, I couldn't see anyone of his age being so naive as to think that moving back was an option. Once he had defected his father could never be safe again in the USSR. If Pasha and his mother returned, whatever social standing he had previously held would likely be lost.

Maybe it's a cultural thing but I always wished that Pasha's mother would just sit down and talk honestly with him. Her scenes with 'Dee' were so frustrating because she was saying to Dee all the things she should have been saying to her son. Instead of getting emotional at his door and being honest with Dee she should have sat down with him and said, 'You're right, what your father did was a violation of us both. It wasn't fair and I'm very angry too. Because he has placed us in a situation where we can't ever return to our old lives. He closed that door on us and it's ok to grieve our old lives and be furious with him. But we're stuck here now, so how can we make this work for you? I'm so sorry that I can't take you home but I will do everything in my power to help you build a happy life here.' It wouldn't have magically fixed everything right away but it would have let Pasha trust someone again and made it a lot harder for Tuan and Dee to groom them.

[SunnyBeBe]

3 hours ago, dr pepper said:

"They can find someone else to get the information from Kimmie" Like, yeah! Kimmie and her friends come pre-groomed for whatever less scrupulous agent steps in as Philip's replacement.

Hey, what about Tuan stepping into the Kimmy mission?  He could transition into a guy about her age. (Since, he's actually an adult anyway, right?)  I wonder how P would feel about that?  lol  I think he cares about Kimmy and the idea of Tuan lounging on her sofa might put P over the edge. lol

Hey, just wanted you all to know that there are some super insightful and thoughtful posts about the show over on Americans In The Media thread posted over the last few days. (I'm not referring to mine, but other posters.)  Here's the link.  I found them some of the best posts, I've seen on these boards, ever.  I encourage you to check them out. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[PamelaMaeSnap]

4 hours ago, dr pepper said:

"They can find someone else to get the information from Kimmie" Like, yeah! Kimmie and her friends come pre-groomed for whatever less scrupulous agent steps in as Philip's replacement.

Perhaps Tuan?

ETA: Sorry Sunny BeBe, posted this before I saw your post! Great minds and all that ;)

Edited June 2, 2017 by PamelaMaeSnap

[Clanstarling]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

To be fair, Philip actually did have a ready made excuse for what he was doing. His kid just told him Pasha was talking about suicide. He had him call the house and there was no answer and they know Pasha should be home and they're worried.

Granted, the idea of Philip not caring about how it looked, which for all we know he was not supposed to, is annoying and ridiculous. Is he playing out what he said about Tuan wanting to get caught or in trouble so he'll be sent home? That's just annoying and stupid. But Brad the pilot actually did have a reason to break into the house and he wouldn't even have to act to play it out. I'm sure Tuan would be angry about the reason but that also could have been avoided if he'd talked to his partners first.

I saw the scene as Phillip losing it - he wasn't thinking about a spy - because he wasn't thinking, he was reacting emotionally. And once you start reacting emotionally, you're through being an effective spy. As Elizabeth saw.

2 hours ago, AllyB said:

I wish we'd been told just what it was about the USSR that Pasha missed so much. I never felt his objections to living in the US were very ideological. So was Pasha just homesick? Did he miss particular friends or a lover? Was he especially talented at sports/academics in a way that he was feted for in Russia but was not considered important in the US? Did he desperately miss his extended family? Was it just that he was bullied in school in the US? And if one or some of those were the reasons, was he very, very stupid? Because while I could see him resenting his father for moving the family to the US without their knowledge, I couldn't see anyone of his age being so naive as to think that moving back was an option. Once he had defected his father could never be safe again in the USSR. If Pasha and his mother returned, whatever social standing he had previously held would likely be lost.

They haven't explored it much, that's true. But as a kid who was moved around country to country, state to state, I didn't notice - because I knew how Pasha felt from my own experience. It's not about one thing - it's everything. You go from having a community and friends to having none. You go from living in a culture you understand, to being completely baffled by everything. School is taught and structured differently (not to mention the social cliques). You have to build new relationships, a new life, with people you don't want to be around, many of whom (especially in Pasha's case) don't want anything to do with you unless they too are outsiders.

I did it all my life and it was hard every time, but I developed coping mechanisms. To do it in your teens after having grown up in one place, brutal. As for being naive to think you can move back? It's not a reasoned yearning, it's more magical thinking .

Edited June 2, 2017 by Clanstarling

[SunnyBeBe]

Ref. Jimmy visiting Kimmy on a regular basis.  Do we know how often he went over there?  How did Kimmy let Jimmy know when her dad would be out for the evening? Did she call the MAIN phone number where they take messages?  Maybe, an answering machine? Did she ever wonder why he was NEVER home to answer his phone?  It's good that she doesn't have nosy neighbors.  My neighborhood is full of people who would have been wondering who that man is who continues to visit this young girl when her dad is not there.....hmmmm....a male nanny?  lol  I guess her dad doesn't chat with them when they get the mail or newspaper or just say hello.  Still....Jimmy has been quite lucky.  I'd be thinking of some other arrangement for future access. 

You know, with the way this season has gone...I wonder if they writers will have Philip put on a new wig, new style of clothes and pretend that he's a different person.  I mean, it could fool Kimmy, right?  lol  Just kidding. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

What's going to happen if Pasha's parents question Pasha about the suicide attempt and he reveals that Tuan talked him into it?  I don't see him hanging around that family anymore regardless if they go home or not, and he doesn't have an operation after this.  He's basically an orphan.

Pasha's going back to the USSR so he's not hanging around with anyone there anyway. Tuan will go back to his regular life.

3 hours ago, AllyB said:

And if one or some of those were the reasons, was he very, very stupid? Because while I could see him resenting his father for moving the family to the US without their knowledge, I couldn't see anyone of his age being so naive as to think that moving back was an option. Once he had defected his father could never be safe again in the USSR. If Pasha and his mother returned, whatever social standing he had previously held would likely be lost.

Yeah, I actually would have thought it was very believable if after the suicide attempt Pasha got a clue and realized that this wasn't a good plan. He's got every reason to think he's never going to see his father again. I now kids can certainly do rash things and not think them through and he's furious at his father but I don't know...I feel like it would almost be more realistic if Pasha really didn't ultimately want to pull that kind of trigger for exactly these reasons. 

Because I totally believe that Pasha would just want to go home. He had a good life and now he has a terrible life. Of course he wants to go back. But I would believe it if the suicide attempt instead opened up some family communication where Pasha would come around and so would everyone else. Maybe they could move him to a different school for starters. His parents should at least be preparing him for the fact that he's not just going to pick up where he left off.

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I saw the scene as Phillip losing it - he wasn't thinking about a spy - because he wasn't thinking, he was reacting emotionally. And once you start reacting emotionally, you're through being an effective spy. As Elizabeth saw.

That's what I thought too, but the thing is, there are consequences for his blowing his cover that would also be very emotional. So are we supposed to think Philip's just ready to throw away his own kids? I'd hope he was at least thinking that he could talk himself out of it this way. He wants to leave for Russia with the family, not get thrown in jail at the last minute.

16 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Ref. Jimmy visiting Kimmy on a regular basis.  Do we know how often he went over there?  How did Kimmy let Jimmy know when her dad would be out for the evening? Did she call the MAIN phone number where they take mes

He goes over every couple of weeks and they can communicate via the phone with messages. He's not there that much and it's not unusual for people to not answer the phone all the time.

[Helena Dax]

20 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Well that was my point, that if Martha adopted her, the toddler wouldn't be learning Russian at home (where most children learn to speak),  Even a year or so later, not with the right accent, and likely not with a very full vocabulary.

Although the toddler could pick up fluent English--unless Martha was told by the adoption agency not to speak it around her.

I'm not sure I'm understanding the conversation, but here are my two cents. The toddler doesn't need Martha. She seemed to be about three years old, which means she's already pretty fluent in Russian. She'd learn the rest at school; if Martha taught her English, the girl would become bilingual in one year. I mean, I work in a school and I've seen dozens of foreign kids learning Spanish (I'm from Spain) in weeks. It's simply amazing how fast they learn new languages. And the younger they are, the faster they learn.

I'd say that this season has been anti-climatic, but I didn't find it boring. I think this season would have been very different (more like the others) if the writers hadn't known that it was going to be the next-to-last season. But they knew and they chose a different approach. I'm fine with that.

I think it's interesting that Philip and Elizabeth weren't the only ones wanting to quit. Stan's also there. Although, tbh, his job isn't as stressful right now as Philip and Elizabeth's. 

Pasha was a clear warning of what could happen to Henry and Paige if they were forced to move to Russia. As far as I remember, Philip and Elizabeth never acknowledged it openly, but I'm pretty sure they knew. Anyway, they are between a rock and a hard place. If they stay, they risk being captured, even if they stop spying. If they leave with Henry and Paige, their kids are going to hate them forever (and deep down, they're aware Russia isn't exactly a communist paradise). If they leave without the kids, as far as they know they'll never see Paige and Henry again.  So, it sucks.

[Chaos Theory]

23 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Ref. Jimmy visiting Kimmy on a regular basis.  Do we know how often he went over there?  How did Kimmy let Jimmy know when her dad would be out for the evening? Did she call the MAIN phone number where they take messages?  Maybe, an answering machine? Did she ever wonder why he was NEVER home to answer his phone?  It's good that she doesn't have nosy neighbors.  My neighborhood is full of people who would have been wondering who that man is who continues to visit this young girl when her dad is not there.....hmmmm....a male nanny?  lol  I guess her dad doesn't chat with them when they get the mail or newspaper or just say hello.  Still....Jimmy has been quite lucky.  I'd be thinking of some other arrangement for future access. 

They have people work for them.  One of Han's jobs was to trail Martha.  They probably had people watching the CIA building from a distance.   Hell Philip avoided Martha when he even thought she was being watched.  They have procedures and back up plans.  It's not luck that he hasn't been caught.  They don't rely on luck.  They've never relied on luck.

[SunnyBeBe]

Luck, being fortunate, whatever, you call it......Despite precautions, there is no way to prevent Kimmy's neighbors from mentioning this strange older visitor to Kimmy's dad, unless the KGB had surveillance of all the neighbors 24/7 in person and phone lines.  AND all the people that they may have told about this.  And all the contacts of all of Kimmy's friends. This would take hundreds of spies.   I know this issue was mentioned upthread, but, I'm not sure how many people can keep a secret. I don't know many at all.  Being able to keep something in confidence is very challenging, if not impossible, for most everyone I know.  I have only a couple of people that I think would be able to that.  The odds of that many people knowing that Jimmy is there and no one talks about it, is just strange, imo.  It's not realistic to me.   Or course, I realize that at some point, we have to buy into a story and that not all kinks can be worked out of a storyline.  This is one of those things on this show, that I have to just suspend rationale and just buy into it.  I suppose that my way of doing that is to consider that Jimmy was lucky. lol 

[Bannon]

29 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

They have people work for them.  One of Han's jobs was to trail Martha.  They probably had people watching the CIA building from a distance.   Hell Philip avoided Martha when he even thought she was being watched.  They have procedures and back up plans.  It's not luck that he hasn't been caught.  They don't rely on luck.  They've never relied on luck.

They sure do rely on luck. Right now, Phillip is relying on luck that no teenager in the group he helps intoxicate will smash the family station wagon into the garage door of the family home, or will just come home reeking of weed,  followed by angry daddy demanding to know where our stoned little teenager got high, followed by our stoned little teenager telling angry daddy it happened at Kimmy's house,where Kimmy's 30ish/40ish boyfriend has the killer chronic.

Relying on the motor skills and nonsuspicious behavior of intoxicated teenagers to help maintain a cover. The epitome of advanced strategic and tactical planning in the craft of espionage.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Luck, being fortunate, whatever, you call it......Despite precautions, there is no way to prevent Kimmy's neighbors from mentioning this strange older visitor to Kimmy's dad, unless the KGB had surveillance of all the neighbors 24/7 in person and phone lines.  AND all the people that they may have told about this.  And all the contacts of all of Kimmy's friends.

The chance they took was that Philip is pretending to be some older guy in his 20s or 30s that Kimmy is friends with. Not that no one will ever know of Philip's existence in Kimmy's life. He has a cover ID that explains him, even if it's not an ID everybody would like. One of the realities of Kimmy's existence from the start was that her dad didn't know her and she didn't know her dad. He's barely there. Things are better now, but he's still rarely there and the neighbors probably see random people going in an out other times. Kimmy and her friends have probably been keeping plenty of secrets for years. He's possibly not even her first grown-man boyfriend.

I mean, of course there's a risk. There's always a risk. Anybody they work on a regular basis is a risk--Martha, Anneleise, Young-Hee. They were seen with all those people in their cover identities.

Edited June 2, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

Just now, sistermagpie said:

The chance they took was that Philip is pretending to be some older guy in his 20s or 30s that Kimmy is friends with. Not that no one will ever know of Philip's existence in Kimmy's life. He has a cover ID that explains him, even if it's not an ID everybody would like. One of the realities of Kimmy's existence from the start was that her dad didn't know her and she didn't know her dad. He's barely there. Things are better now, but he's still rarely there and the neighbors probably see random people going in an out other times. 

I mean, of course there's a risk. There's always a risk. Anybody they work on a regular basis is a risk--Martha, Anneleise, Young-Hee. They were seen with all those people in their cover identities.

It's plausible if Phillip keeps his contact with the isolated Kimmy one on one. When it gets expanded to Kimmy's crib being Frederick, MD's favorite teen party spot, well, I'm starting to think the writers are having too much of what Jim is offering. 

[TenPea]

I REALLY want to believe that they put "God Only Knows" in this show as a small tribute to Bill Paxton.

[scrb]

Why were Philip and Elizabeth running that operation on Pasha's family in the first place?  Because the father had defected and was very critical of the USSR?

What were they going to do, kill him for talking trash?  Or convince them to return to the USSR?  How often did defectors, especially one who was so anti-Soviet, come back?

Then it turns out the mother gets a job with the CIA, with access to CIA officers who might be stationed in the SU, so they can photograph who they are.  But it's not like those guys would be undercover, they'd be at the US embassy there.  So they discover she's having an affair with one of them and now they want to get the mother to return to the SU, so that they could blackmail her or her lover.

They no longer care if the father comes back then?  Wasn't the original operation targeting him, not his wife?

Doesn't make sense at all.