whiporee June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 On May 31, 2017 at 2:09 PM, sistermagpie said: I think it's well within something that could believably happen in 1984 and I didn't catch any of them looking horrified or giving each other secret looks about it. Seemed like these were teens who were enjoying the fact that he was an adult and had accepted that this was Kimmy's friend--maybe her boyfriend, and it was fine with them if she was sleeping with an older guy since that's her preference. I think the rules about adult/young adult interactions have changed a lot since the time the show is set. I can remember it not being any big deal at all for older men to hang out with and date teenage girls -- Hell, the whole movie Manhattan is about that (and don't forget Tony Roberts? 16-year-old twins speech on Annie Hall). There was a lot less frowning on those types of relationships than there is now. I graduated in 1984, and I could tell you of at least three teacher/student affairs that other members of the faculty knew about. It wasn't condoned, exactly, but the summer after she graduated they invited her to their barbecues and such. It think there was an immaturity stigma attached to the men, but I don't think creepiness was attached to these type things until fairly recently. There was a national consensus -- maybe because of Vietnam and the draft-ability that accompanied it -- that 18 or so was old enough to make your own choices. They changed the constitution to support that idea in 1971. You could drink at 18 in most states until 1984. You could smoke at school with your parents' permission at 16, and at 18 just because you wanted to. For good or bad, we've infantilized teenagers in this country to a much higher level now than we used to. So I don't think anyone in 1984 would have been skeeved -- or even would have thought it odd -- that an older guy like Phillip was hanging around Kimmy. The only weird thing would be that they weren't screwing, but my guess is Kimmy told her friends they were. 6 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 16 minutes ago, Bannon said: It's plausible if Phillip keeps his contact with the isolated Kimmy one on one. When it gets expanded to Kimmy's crib being Frederick, MD's favorite teen party spot, well, I'm starting to think the writers are having too much of what Jim is offering. Which hasn't actually happened. Though if Kimmy's crib had become Frederick, MD's favorite teen party spot it would be perfectly realistic because she's always at home without adults, not because she knows this one guy. 3 Link to comment
SunnyBeBe June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, scrb said: Why were Philip and Elizabeth running that operation on Pasha's family in the first place? Because the father had defected and was very critical of the USSR? What were they going to do, kill him for talking trash? Or convince them to return to the USSR? How often did defectors, especially one who was so anti-Soviet, come back? Then it turns out the mother gets a job with the CIA, with access to CIA officers who might be stationed in the SU, so they can photograph who they are. But it's not like those guys would be undercover, they'd be at the US embassy there. So they discover she's having an affair with one of them and now they want to get the mother to return to the SU, so that they could blackmail her or her lover. They no longer care if the father comes back then? Wasn't the original operation targeting him, not his wife? Doesn't make sense at all. I asked about this upthread too. I never was clear on the original mission with that family. After the affair, I get it, but, I never understood how he was connected with the super wheat, travel, etc. It appeared that he was all connected, but, then....not so much. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, scrb said: Why were Philip and Elizabeth running that operation on Pasha's family in the first place? Because the father had defected and was very critical of the USSR? Because he was working in agriculture and they were supposed to be sniffing around what he was doing. That's how they got to the wheat. 7 minutes ago, scrb said: They no longer care if the father comes back then? Wasn't the original operation targeting him, not his wife? They never cared about the father coming back. They were looking at what he was doing with the USA. They just stumbled upon this connection to a whole group of people going to the USSR. Two different things. 8 minutes ago, whiporee said: For good or bad, we've infantilized teenagers in this country to a much higher level now than we used to. So I don't think anyone in 1984 would have been skeeved -- or even would have thought it odd -- that an older guy like Phillip was hanging around Kimmy. The only weird thing would be that they weren't screwing, but my guess is Kimmy told her friends they were. Which is also why people assume that Henry is in some extreme neglect situation because he can be out without his parents driving him over there and meeting everyone first. Or that they're not the first to know who he has a crush on these days. Jim's been adjusting his relationship with Kimmy for like 2 years now. 5 Link to comment
Bannon June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Which hasn't actually happened. Though if Kimmy's crib had become Frederick, MD's favorite teen party spot it would be perfectly realistic because she's always at home without adults, not because she knows this one guy. It's plausible for Kimmy. It isn't plausible that a highly skilled illegal would risk his entire operation on the chance that not a single one of the teenagers he is intoxicating will do something stupid, which will draw the attention of an adult observing the teenager doing something stupid while intoxicated, which in turn will draw attention from law enforcement as to who has supplied the intoxicants. It's ridiculous. 2 Link to comment
scrb June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 Yeah the case was stupid. And they use Tuan because he apparently has some Rasputin-like power over teenagers, first to get complete confidence of Pasha -- maybe not so hard to do since he may be weak-minded -- and American teens. He could manipulate them into bullying Pasha? Oh okay, because American teens were ready to do the bidding of this Vietnamese kid. Pretty sure back in the day, there were cracks about "fresh off the boat" and other derogatory comments about the Vietnamese. All they had to do was transfer Pasha to another school or tell the CIA they wanted him in private school. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Bannon said: It's plausible for Kimmy. It isn't plausible that a highly skilled illegal would risk his entire operation on the chance that not a single one of the teenagers he is intoxicating will do something stupid, which will draw the attention of an adult observing the teenager doing something stupid while intoxicated, which in turn will draw attention from law enforcement as to who has supplied the intoxicants. It's ridiculous. Most of the things they do on their job on the show are far too risky for an illegal to do. But in this universe, this is usually the way they do it. Because the thing the show's interested in is having them be these other people who are integrated into their lives. This is where the real Jim would be in Kimmy's life, so it's where Philip's Jim is. Plus the show gets to put emphasis on teenagers as people with secrets. Thematically it's on point. In the real world none of it would be happening. Quote He could manipulate them into bullying Pasha? Oh okay, because American teens were ready to do the bidding of this Vietnamese kid. Pretty sure back in the day, there were cracks about "fresh off the boat" and other derogatory comments about the Vietnamese. They didn't do his bidding. They thought it was there idea. It probably wouldn't be that hard to do. Pasha has plenty of bullying instincts about Pasha himself. He just had to direct their thoughts to him a bit. A non-spy teenager could probably do it. Even a Vietnamese one. Edited June 2, 2017 by sistermagpie 1 Link to comment
Bannon June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 Just now, sistermagpie said: Most of the things they do on their job on the show are far too risky for an illegal to do. But in this universe, this is usually the way they do it. Because the thing the show's interested in is having them be these other people who are integrated into their lives. This is where the real Jim would be in Kimmy's life, so it's where Philip's Jim is. Plus the show gets to put emphasis on teenagers as people with secrets. Thematically it's on point. In the real world none of it would be happening. One of the problems with the show is that it does a poor job of portraying teenagers. We've never seen Paige with a single friend her age, beyond Matthew. Henry has largely been a cipher for 95% of this show. Now we have a group of teenagers who get intoxicated, who a person, who should be obssessed with maintaining a false identity, apparently trusts will not do anything stupid to threaten that false identity, after he aids in their intoxication. This is unlike any group on intoxicated teenagers in the United States, in Phil's opinion. Either that, or Phil received a frontal lobotomy at some point. Which goes back to why I really disliked this season. I understand that many have a different opinion. Link to comment
dubbel zout June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 22 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Quote He could manipulate them into bullying Pasha? Oh okay, because American teens were ready to do the bidding of this Vietnamese kid. Pretty sure back in the day, there were cracks about "fresh off the boat" and other derogatory comments about the Vietnamese. They didn't do his bidding. They thought it was there idea. It probably wouldn't be that hard to do. Pasha has plenty of bullying instincts about Pasha himself. He just had to direct their thoughts to him a bit. A non-spy teenager could probably do it. Even a Vietnamese one. Yep. Pasha was on the outside the way it is; Tuan wouldn't have to do much to push a group of jerks who already disliked Pasha to escalate their hostilities. 1 Link to comment
Chaos Theory June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Bannon said: One of the problems with the show is that it does a poor job of portraying teenagers. We've never seen Paige with a single friend her age, beyond Matthew. Henry has largely been a cipher for 95% of this show. I do agree with this point. During the initial promo I thought that the show would deal alot more with Paige. I understand that alot of people dislike Paige (for reasons I still don't understand because I view her as one of the more intriguing characters on the show that aren't P&E or Martha) It would have been interesting to see her going to class and viewing how she saw her teachers and classmates through changed eyes even if it was just a scene every other episode. I still however disagree about the Kimmy storyline. Philip and Elizabeth have both been seen with their targets in public. That's why they wear those silly disguises and go to such extremes with their backgrounds. Clarke had a legitimate background that took some investigating to break. Jim would have similar background and backstops. Unless Jim (Philip) got phyiscally caught all anyone would know was that Kimmy spent time with an old dude who suddenly vanished and maybe the FBI/CIA would connect that somebody back to the illegal program and Clark. Maybe. But even that would take some time and a good investigator. I will give you the point that the scene was a bit jarring. We never saw Jim with Kimmy and her friends before. I would have liked to see him or at least make reference to showing up late. Maybe tell Elizabeth that he made and extra circle around the neighborhood because Kimmy's friends showed up again. Something like that. But a jarring scene is all. I still don't think it was reckless. Quote He could manipulate them into bullying Pasha? Oh okay, because American teens were ready to do the bidding of this Vietnamese kid. Pretty sure back in the day, there were cracks about "fresh off the boat" and other derogatory comments about the Vietnamese. Tuan said he had gotten in with some kids. Plus he spoke very good English and he probably wasn't above spending money. Capitalism often trumps racism. Add to the fact that Tuan was simply on a job so he wasn't above using whatever method he needed to to get these American kids to do what he wanted. Playing both sides? Sure why not. Edited June 2, 2017 by Chaos Theory 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Bannon said: One of the problems with the show is that it does a poor job of portraying teenagers. We've never seen Paige with a single friend her age, beyond Matthew. Henry has largely been a cipher for 95% of this show I was going to move my answer here to the all-episodes thread but it seems to be locked. I don't actually agree with that because if there's one thing I don't want to be spending time on it's the social life of Paige or Henry with other kids if there's no reason for it. I'm happy assuming they have friends off-screen that there's no reason for me to see. They've both made references to friends. Even Sally Draper, often held up as one of the best-drawn kids on TV, only had one significant friend throughout the show--and that was mostly because he had something to do with her mother. (And random girls as needed occasionally when she got older.) None of the Brady kids spent much time with friends either--and when they did the person was seen once and never again. We don't see any world on this show that isn't connected to spying. Paige at the start of the show was supposed to be a kid with friends from school and she referenced them. Then she got obsessed with church and while she seemed to socialize there, she wasn't interested in any particular kid, just Pastor Tim and his wife. (That said, we know she did have people she considered friends from the youth group because she referenced them and we briefly saw a couple.) Note that in this ep Paige was in on the planning of Pastor Tim's surprise party--she's part of the social life there. I think her early development as a teen was pretty spot-on. But what the show and Paige herself maybe sees as development really seems like regression to me. She's kind of finally gotten her dream of being the third parent and it just makes her seem younger. Henry, I think, has actually been pretty consistently drawn throughout the show. He was the kind of kid who went through phases of what he was into, and when that phase was hanging out with Stan the parents made a point of saying it was weird because why wasn't he with regular friends? (Just as they did when Paige wanted her Pastor over for her birthday instead of friends.) Now Henry's in a phase where he's all over being a little Michael P. Keaton. He's never seemed like a cipher to me at all. He's just interested in everything but his parents--but expects them to be there whenever he needs or wants them. He doesn't share everything with his parents so they've just consistently been amused or confused observers. That all seems very realistic to me. So basically if we saw them with their friends Paige would just be looking upset that she couldn't talk about what she was really thinking about and Henry would at best be dismissing his parents as lame before talking about video games. Fine for a scene or two, but not a whole story. Ironically in this ep I thought the teenagers seemed pretty normal. The two boys looked like they might be post-high school too. It seemed like a pretty low-key evening. 8 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said: I will give you the point that the scene was a bit jarring. We never saw Jim with Kimmy and her friends before. He never hung out with them before that we've seen but he has been seen by other kids at least 3 times before this. And I think two of those times he was introduced. Edited June 2, 2017 by sistermagpie 7 Link to comment
Bannon June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said: I do agree with this point. During the initial promo I thought that the show would deal alot more with Paige. I understand that alot of people dislike Paige (for reasons I still don't understand because I view her as one of the more intriguing characters on the show that aren't P&E or Martha) It would have been interesting to see her going to class and viewing how she saw her teachers and classmates through changed eyes even if it was just a scene every other episode. I still however disagree about the Kimmy storyline. Philip and Elizabeth have both been seen with their targets in public. That's why they wear those silly disguises and go to such extremes with their backgrounds. Clarke had a legitimate background that took some investigating to break. Jim would have similar background and backstops. Unless Jim (Philip) got phyiscally caught all anyone would know was that Kimmy spent time with an old dude who suddenly vanished and maybe the FBI/CIA would connect that somebody back to the illegal program and Clark. Maybe. But even that would take some time and a good investigator. I will give you the point that the scene was a bit jarring. We never saw Jim with Kimmy and her friends before. I would have liked to see him or at least make reference to showing up late. Maybe tell Elizabeth that he made and extra circle around the neighborhood because Kimmy's friends showed up again. Something like that. But a jarring scene is all. I still don't think it was reckless. Tuan said he had gotten in with some kids. Plus he spoke very good English and he probably wasn't above spending money. Capitalism often trumps racism. Add to the fact that Tuan was simply on a job so he wasn't above using whatever method he needed to to get these American kids to do what he wanted. Playing both sides? Sure why not. Wait, so one of Kimmy's friends gets caught by his/her parents being high, rats out where the party is, they call Kimmy's father, and tell him an old dude is supplying weed for Kimmy's parties in his house, and you don't think he is getting caught? Or that the tape recorder isn't discovered? You think Kimmmy won't cooperate to catch Phil,once she learns to what purpose Phil was using her? 52 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I was going to move my answer here to the all-episodes thread but it seems to be locked. I don't actually agree with that because if there's one thing I don't want to be spending time on it's the social life of Paige or Henry with other kids if there's no reason for it. I'm happy assuming they have friends off-screen that there's no reason for me to see. They've both made references to friends. Even Sally Draper, often held up as one of the best-drawn kids on TV, only had one significant friend throughout the show--and that was mostly because he had something to do with her mother. (And random girls as needed occasionally when she got older.) None of the Brady kids spent much time with friends either--and when they did the person was seen once and never again. We don't see any world on this show that isn't connected to spying. Paige at the start of the show was supposed to be a kid with friends from school and she referenced them. Then she got obsessed with church and while she seemed to socialize there, she wasn't interested in any particular kid, just Pastor Tim and his wife. (That said, we know she did have people she considered friends from the youth group because she referenced them and we briefly saw a couple.) Note that in this ep Paige was in on the planning of Pastor Tim's surprise party--she's part of the social life there. I think her early development as a teen was pretty spot-on. But what the show and Paige herself maybe sees as development really seems like regression to me. She's kind of finally gotten her dream of being the third parent and it just makes her seem younger. Henry, I think, has actually been pretty consistently drawn throughout the show. He was the kind of kid who went through phases of what he was into, and when that phase was hanging out with Stan the parents made a point of saying it was weird because why wasn't he with regular friends? (Just as they did when Paige wanted her Pastor over for her birthday instead of friends.) Now Henry's in a phase where he's all over being a little Michael P. Keaton. He's never seemed like a cipher to me at all. He's just interested in everything but his parents--but expects them to be there whenever he needs or wants them. He doesn't share everything with his parents so they've just consistently been amused or confused observers. That all seems very realistic to me. So basically if we saw them with their friends Paige would just be looking upset that she couldn't talk about what she was really thinking about and Henry would at best be dismissing his parents as lame before talking about video games. Fine for a scene or two, but not a whole story. Ironically in this ep I thought the teenagers seemed pretty normal. The two boys looked like they might be post-high school too. It seemed like a pretty low-key evening. He never hung out with them before that we've seen but he has been seen by other kids at least 3 times before this. And I think two of those times he was introduced. I think it is impossible to portray the motivations of a teenager, over an extended period of time, with any sort of resemblance to actual human beings, without some portrayal of their interactions with peers. How many lines has Henry actually spoken, over 65 episodes? That's pretty cipher-like, to me. Edited June 2, 2017 by Bannon Link to comment
Sarah 103 June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 On June 1, 2017 at 5:58 AM, icemiser69 said: Pastor Tim would have been no help in terms of walking Paige to her car. If they were attacked, some how I get the feeling that Pastor Tim would go running and screaming into the night. If they were in a large group, or at least 3-4 people walking back to the parking lot, they would be significantly safer. There was something about this episode that bothered me. If it's already August, that's way too late to be getting the acceptance letter. I think private school admission works more like college admission, they would know if they got in during the spring. If they wanted to make the big reveal happen in August, then have him get wait-listed, then have him get off the wait-list in August. Kimmie observation: She may have liked that her relationship was Jim wasn't sexual. After being used to relying on her body and looks to get what she wants or to attract people, it might have been a refreshing change to have someone who was genuinely interested in her as a person. Link to comment
magemaud June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 I apologize if I'm being dense and I missed this, but could somebody explain why defectors Alexei and his family are so important to the Soviet Union that the KGB has three agents maintaining the pretense of living in a pretty fancy house a few doors away? I know "Brad" and "Dee" have the cover story of being airline employees, but nobody thinks it's odd that Tuan basically lives there alone most of the time? And he just showed up one day (probably alone) to enroll in the local high school and now has to attend classes, do homework, etc? Link to comment
snarktini June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 14 minutes ago, magemaud said: I apologize if I'm being dense and I missed this, but could somebody explain why defectors Alexei and his family are so important to the Soviet Union that the KGB has three agents maintaining the pretense of living in a pretty fancy house a few doors away? I know "Brad" and "Dee" have the cover story of being airline employees, but nobody thinks it's odd that Tuan basically lives there alone most of the time? And he just showed up one day (probably alone) to enroll in the local high school and now has to attend classes, do homework, etc? Alexei is high-up in agriculture. It's part of the whole wheat storyline. Link to comment
sistermagpie June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 54 minutes ago, Bannon said: I think it is impossible to portray the motivations of a teenager, over an extended period of time, with any sort of resemblance to actual human beings, without some portrayal of their interactions with peers. How many lines has Henry actually spoken, over 65 episodes? That's pretty cipher-like, to me. It's done that way on pretty much every TV show that isn't specifically about a group of teenage friends so I don't think it's a problem. We're focused on the parts of Paige and Henry's life that relate to their parents and not the rest. Having a small number of lines doesn't make you a cipher. Most of Henry's lines are him acting like a pretty normal kid. 42 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said: There was something about this episode that bothered me. If it's already August, that's way too late to be getting the acceptance letter. I think private school admission works more like college admission, they would know if they got in during the spring. If they wanted to make the big reveal happen in August, then have him get wait-listed, then have him get off the wait-list in August. It's not August. Henry is wearing a down jacket and there's snow on the ground in Moscow. They just didn't want anybody to look up the date of that thing Reagan did because they didn't mean it as a time stamp. 23 minutes ago, magemaud said: I apologize if I'm being dense and I missed this, but could somebody explain why defectors Alexei and his family are so important to the Soviet Union that the KGB has three agents maintaining the pretense of living in a pretty fancy house a few doors away? I know "Brad" and "Dee" have the cover story of being airline employees, but nobody thinks it's odd that Tuan basically lives there alone most of the time? And he just showed up one day (probably alone) to enroll in the local high school and now has to attend classes, do homework, etc? Why would it be weird for a kid to move to town and start attending school? The neighbors don't know how often they're away. They set up the family so they'd have a reason to live on the block and get close to them. It's not really that different than any of their other operations. Tuan didn't show up alone and start attending classes, his parents Brad and Dee showed up with him and enrolled him. 3 Link to comment
SunnyBeBe June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 24 minutes ago, magemaud said: I apologize if I'm being dense and I missed this, but could somebody explain why defectors Alexei and his family are so important to the Soviet Union that the KGB has three agents maintaining the pretense of living in a pretty fancy house a few doors away? I know "Brad" and "Dee" have the cover story of being airline employees, but nobody thinks it's odd that Tuan basically lives there alone most of the time? And he just showed up one day (probably alone) to enroll in the local high school and now has to attend classes, do homework, etc? It was explained to me that the KGB was interested in what he was doing with food technology. I suppose they feared he had food DNA secrets that he took from Soviet Union and he would share with the USA. Once, they figured out that it wasn't the case..... I don't know. Maybe, that was around the time they figured out that his wife was having an affair with a guy who was Russian bound who they could get info from through blackmail or in secret. I imagined that they had moving trucks show up with P, E and Tuan that made it appear that they were moving into the neighborhood. He enrolled in school and fake records or even real ones arrived from somewhere. Tuan befriends Pasha and the parents hookup. Since Brad and Dee fly so much, it would be difficult to keep up with who is where on their schedules. Plus, Tuan is presumably, old enough to stay alone overnight for short periods. That's my take on it. If anyone has something else, I'm open. 1 Link to comment
Bannon June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: It's done that way on pretty much every TV show that isn't specifically about a group of teenage friends so I don't think it's a problem. We're focused on the parts of Paige and Henry's life that relate to their parents and not the rest. Having a small number of lines doesn't make you a cipher. Most of Henry's lines are him acting like a pretty normal kid. It's not August. Henry is wearing a down jacket and there's snow on the ground in Moscow. They just didn't want anybody to look up the date of that thing Reagan did because they didn't mean it as a time stamp. Why would it be weird for a kid to move to town and start attending school? The neighbors don't know how often they're away. They set up the family so they'd have a reason to live on the block and get close to them. It's not really that different than any of their other operations. Tuan didn't show up alone and start attending classes, his parents Brad and Dee showed up with him and enrolled him. I think the strong majority of television drama is pretty poor, so I would not take "that's the way it is usually done" as an argument for doing it that way. In any case, of the t.v shows I've paid close attention to over the past 15 years, which had prominent teenage children, I thought "The Sopranos" was really outstanding in portraying peer group interaction as a source of motivation for teenagers. Not so with "Breaking Bad", but I can see a kid with junior's disability getting pretty isolated from his peers. I had a lot of problems with Mad Men, but I disagree with your recollection; I remember the daughter's interactions with classmates as being an influence. "Homeland", of course, has been titanically stupid in this regard. "The Wire" was great at portraying peer group interaction as a motivator for teenagers. "Ray Donovan" much less so, although there have been moments with the son. I didn't say Henry was abnormal. I said his portrayal has been so limited that I dont know the character at all, after 52 episodes. Edited June 2, 2017 by Bannon Link to comment
Clanstarling June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 7 minutes ago, Bannon said: I had a lot of problems with Mad Men, but I disagree with your recollection; I remember the daughter's interactions with classmates as being an influence Once she was in boarding school, yes. But earlier on (the bulk of the show), not so much. 1 Link to comment
Bannon June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 Just now, Clanstarling said: Once she was in boarding school, yes. But earlier on (the bulk of the show), not so much. "The Sopranos" really is the pinnacle of the portrayal of teenage motivations, within a larger non-teenage drama, and it is a element which did not receive enough recognition, with all the other praise the show received, mosty deservedly. To be fair to Mad Men , I think it was a few seasons before the daughter fully entered teenager stage, which is when children first start become interesting as idependent beings. Link to comment
sistermagpie June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Bannon said: I had a lot of problems with Mad Men, but I disagree with your recollection; I remember the daughter's interactions with classmates as being an influence. Okay, then that's not really a critique of this show so much as a general desire for all shows to follow teen characters into their teen world on principle. Mad Men and BB never did that either. Walt Jr. on BB interacted mostly with his parents and his uncle, because that was how he fit into the main themes of the show. Paige interacts with Pastor Tim and his wife as alternate parents and Matthew as a peer. Henry interacts with Stan and now has embraced his peer group as his main influence. They're all only getting stories that relate directly back to their parents because they're who the show is about. 44 minutes ago, Bannon said: I didn't say Henry was abnormal. I said his portrayal has been so limited that I dont know the character at all, after 52 episodes. I didn't think you meant he was abnormal. I was saying I didn't understand why you don't know him at all after 52 episodes. I'm genuinely surprised to hear him described as a cipher or someone we don't know at all just because we don't know him on the level his best friends his own age would. Of course we'd learn more about him with more of a deep-dive but I honestly don't understand how he's confusing or unknown without one. 30 minutes ago, Bannon said: To be fair to Mad Men , I think it was a few seasons before the daughter fully entered teenager stage, which is when children first start become interesting as idependent beings. But of course that's subjective and the writer's of that show wouldn't even agree. Sally clearly became interesting to them as an independent being much earlier on when she was interacting almost entirely with adult characters. Some of her brief interactions with adults are more important than interactions we see with her friends, whose influence or existence is often just used to set up a plot thing. Her important interactions were almost all leading straight back to her relationship with her parents. Edited June 2, 2017 by sistermagpie 1 Link to comment
magemaud June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 I know that Alexei was "high up" in the Soviet Department of Agriculture, but aren't the Americans supposed to be the ones with the Super Wheat secrets and not the other way around? It just seems like an elaborate amount of resources and manpower to pull off this charade. And call me Gladys Kravitz, but if a family moved in on my street with two parents who were away for days at a time and left a teenage boy home to fend for himself, I'd be watching the comings and goings through the blinds. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 Interesting that you guys brought up that we don't really know why Pasha misses the Soviet Union so much. (It's not Russia yet to me, it's still the USSR. ;) I've meant to mention for a while now that on one of the podcasts, the showrunners admitted that we don't really get to know these new people the way we've known people like Nina, Martha, and others in the past. They flat out admitted that they were just devices to move the story *plot points* is the way I'd term that. We never see them alone or with others, they haven't been made multi-denominational, they only exist when Philip and Elizabeth are with them. I was shocked to hear them admit that, but they said it like it was no big deal to write characters as nothing more than something to move whatever story they think they were telling forward. That may explain another reason that this season just didn't work for me. Oh, head's up. We already have a thread about what we'd like to happen when the show ends. I decided to add another one, given all we've seen this season, about what we think will happen to end this tale. It's lonely there so far, so come and give your best guesses if you are so inclined. ;) 2 Link to comment
RedHawk June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 5 hours ago, Bannon said: They sure do rely on luck. Right now, Phillip is relying on luck that no teenager in the group he helps intoxicate will smash the family station wagon into the garage door of the family home, or will just come home reeking of weed, followed by angry daddy demanding to know where our stoned little teenager got high, followed by our stoned little teenager telling angry daddy it happened at Kimmy's house,where Kimmy's 30ish/40ish boyfriend has the killer chronic. Relying on the motor skills and nonsuspicious behavior of intoxicated teenagers to help maintain a cover. The epitome of advanced strategic and tactical planning in the craft of espionage. The 17 and 18 year olds we saw were not "little teenagers", certainly not in 1984, and there has always been a "code" about keeping one's mouth shut when doing those sorts of illegal activities. Also, Jim is supposed to be around 30, not 40ish. Nothing we have seen would make us think any of Kimmy's friends think he is near 40 or some "creepy old guy". 7 Link to comment
Dowel Jones June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 8 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said: Hey, what about Tuan stepping into the Kimmy mission? 5 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Tuan will go back to his regular life. I thought about using Tuan with Kimmie also, but, in my opinion, he is too tightly wound up in his revolutionary fervor to make a good underground agent, especially with a group of well off teenagers who share none of his philosophies. Elizabeth is right; he needs a partner to both guide him and keep him on the straight and narrow when it comes to maintaining a cover. This was probably explained when Philip was first given the assignment of bugging Breland, but since I have forgotten it, wouldn't he have to go over to their house more often than once a week to change out tapes? I'm sure they would want information on a more timely basis, and did tapes of that era have enough capacity for so much time, even with voice activation only? Link to comment
Bannon June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: Okay, then that's not really a critique of this show so much as a general desire for all shows to follow teen characters into their teen world on principle. Mad Men and BB never did that either. Walt Jr. on BB interacted mostly with his parents and his uncle, because that was how he fit into the main themes of the show. Paige interacts with Pastor Tim and his wife as alternate parents and Matthew as a peer. Henry interacts with Stan and now has embraced his peer group as his main influence. They're all only getting stories that relate directly back to their parents because they're who the show is about. I didn't think you meant he was abnormal. I was saying I didn't understand why you don't know him at all after 52 episodes. I'm genuinely surprised to hear him described as a cipher or someone we don't know at all just because we don't know him on the level his best friends his own age would. Of course we'd learn more about him with more of a deep-dive but I honestly don't understand how he's confusing or unknown without one. But of course that's subjective and the writer's of that show wouldn't even agree. Sally clearly became interesting to them as an independent being much earlier on when she was interacting almost entirely with adult characters. Some of her brief interactions with adults are more important than interactions we see with her friends, whose influence or existence is often just used to set up a plot thing. Her important interactions were almost all leading straight back to her relationship with her parents. No, what I am saying is that a character whose behavior is going to be critical to plot advancement, and conflict creation/resolution, over an extended period of time, is a character that the audience ought to be able to gain substantial insight, with regard to motivations. I think it is extremely unusual for a teenager to not obtain a lot of their motivation from peer interaction, thus a teenage character portrayal which lacks that is going to strike me as rather superficial. This may fine, really, for Henry, to date, given they haven't really done much of anything with the character for the entire show (I am at a loss as to how you gain substantial insight into a character who hardly has any screen time), but not fine with a character like Paige, who has been so central to the show. Some shows do this better than others. Sopranos was great. The Americans poorly, in my opinion. Breaking Bad wasn't good either, but given the teenage character, I found it plausible that this may have been a teenager who was rather isolated from peers,and Walt Jr. really didn't factor into Walt's criminal affairs to the degree that Paige has the espionage business. What I am saying is that if you are going to make a character important, then give a full portrayal, make the character a complete person. Otherwise, reduce their screen time, and don't make their behavior so much fodder for the plot. I know more about kimmie's friends, and how they affect her, than I do Paige, for goodness sakes. 2 Link to comment
SunnyBeBe June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 I've haven't felt that a character (Paige) was so forced on me, since Megan on MM. lol 7 Link to comment
Bannon June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 40 minutes ago, RedHawk said: The 17 and 18 year olds we saw were not "little teenagers", certainly not in 1984, and there has always been a "code" about keeping one's mouth shut when doing those sorts of illegal activities. Also, Jim is supposed to be around 30, not 40ish. Nothing we have seen would make us think any of Kimmy's friends think he is near 40 or some "creepy old guy". 17 band 18 yeard olds, living in Mommy and Daddy's house, in an upper middle class existence, come pretty close, with some frequency, to being little teenagers, for the simple reason that they have not faced much adversity. They also typically have about as much discipline about the code as they do about anything, which is to say it is inconsistent at best. People, when placed under pressure, drop dimes, and if you think teenagers are better at resisting pressure, than other age groups, you are observing a different universe of teenagers than I. Look, we aren't going to agree. You think that a grown man with substantial skill in concealment and subterfuge would see fit to risk compromising his false identity by way of regularly supplying intoxicants to a group of teenagers, sometimes in the home of an imprortant CIA officer, confident in his belief that none of those teenagers will ever find themselves in a situation where the teenager will find it to his or her substantial advantage to reveal where the intoxicants were obtained, and from whom, or even confident that knowledge of what is going on will become so widespread among the teenagers that an adult, who finds out by chance, with a proclivity of doing something about it, will at least call Kimmie's father. I think it ludicrous. It's ok for us to disagree. Jim looks closer to 40 than 30 to me. Link to comment
Fouts June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 Sigh. I agree Paige can be annoying, but I'm growing more weary of Paige complaints than I am about Paige herself. I think we should move on. 7 Link to comment
Kathemy June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 I really liked Paige in this episode. Honestly. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 22 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said: I thought about using Tuan with Kimmie also, but, in my opinion, he is too tightly wound up in his revolutionary fervor to make a good underground agent, especially with a group of well off teenagers who share none of his philosophies. Elizabeth is right; he needs a partner to both guide him and keep him on the straight and narrow when it comes to maintaining a cover. Tuan doesn't work for Soviet intelligence. He wouldn't be assigned to take over a Soviet thing. 45 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I've meant to mention for a while now that on one of the podcasts, the showrunners admitted that we don't really get to know these new people the way we've known people like Nina, Martha, and others in the past. They flat out admitted that they were just devices to move the story *plot points* is the way I'd term that. We never see them alone or with others, they haven't been made multi-denominational, they only exist when Philip and Elizabeth are with them. Which is weird since the show's always had people fulfilling these kinds of roles and made them seen like real people. It doesn't much matter with the two honey traps who don't seem to be too affected by them (although I don't get why they seem to try to hint that Elizabeth actually likes the Gorp Guy--makes me want to see Gregory's reaction to her liking this guy) but it seems flat-out bizarre to feel that way about Morozovs and Tuan. Like, what else would you see as your main way to dramatize stuff going on? Just today I was thinking of Tuan vs. Lucia. Lucia was also a young, over-eager agent that was a little like Elizabeth. She didn't have that much screentime, but in the time she had they easily established a relationship between her and Elizabeth and a lot about where Lucia was mentally. Her death had a pretty clear meaning for Elizabeth and for her. This season we've got a baby spy acting as a fake son to the Jenningses, and an actual Russian family who defected and are now living in the US. But they didn't see any reason to make real relationships there? I would have thought that would be the whole point of creating characters like that. It seems really strange to think that the really important thing is just to get some kid to a dramatic fake suicide that the audience saw coming all season and is just another variation of scenarios they've done before, even in the same season. Nobody's reaction to the whole final thing had anything to do with the relationships they had with these people. Or even made the main characters connect it to their own "European vacation" plan. I mean, we don't need to see these people alone the way we did Martha and Nina. They're obviously not on that level. But they are like Lucia or William. Not Ben and Deirdre--that actually is fine, I think, to just present them as people Philip and Elizabeth have to service without any big guilt trips since neither honeypot gives a damn that the person they're with isn't actually in love with them. I don't have a problem with them just being presented as drudgery. But I'm surprised at the lack of interest in digging into things that would actually mean something to the main characters like the Morzovs, Tuan and Henry. That also makes me think about Pastor Tim and his wife. They're another family that's also is leaving the US all together. It might have been more interesting if, once it was arranged, if instead of having the Jennings ask PT outright about them leaving (a move I still don't think was really explained and the Jennings never talk about what he said), he just told the whole family he was leaving and said how great it was and the Jennings just in the moment asked him about his thoughts about US kids leaving the country. Just as Pastor Tim was more honest in his diary, he might have been a lot more interesting if he was just spouting off on his thoughts about kids growing up outside the US. Like he might have said how a lot of US kids couldn't handle it or whatever. 3 Link to comment
kokapetl June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 It would be interesting to see Elizabeth partner up with Tuan or Claudia. Claudia can be so disarming, like as the stupid Texan who locked herself out of her niece's apartment. 1 Link to comment
Trillian June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 20 hours ago, pavlovsbell said: I agree with this. Tuan was referencing Marxist and Maoist ideology with "self-criticism" and "petty bourgeois" (petite bourgeoisie as opposed to the proletariat revolutionary). He's telling Philip and Elizabeth that they are not being good revolutionaries/soldiers. That's why he admitted to his own arguably "petty bourgeois" failing in his self-criticism and accused Philip and Elizabeth of doing worse, because they placed their personal concerns over the mission, in his opinion. Petite bourgeoisie - in English, sometimes "petty" - has a specific meaning in Marxist thought as someone who does not own the means of production but who nonetheless is not of the working class. Common examples would be doctors and lawyers. The term does not work well with a post-industrialist society, where the distinction between the bourgeoisie (roughly approximating the "middle class") and the working class becomes blurred. I think that Tuan was using "petty" in the sense of small-minded, rather than referring to their class ideology. Either way, though, it's a pretty big insult. On 2017-06-01 at 4:23 PM, Umbelina said: We kill kids all the time with our drones and the most expensive weaponry in the world. Collateral damage. Tuan was right. I'm glad he reported them. So what if we saw one kid to tear at our heartstrings pretend to kill himself after being expertly instructed by Tuan? Because we "know" him? So that makes it bad, but hundreds of kids are killed all over the world every day. That's reality, and probably the only realistic plot they had all season (aside from the whole ridiculous turn Pasha's mom into a super spy that can get a DEPUTY CHIEF OF STATION to spill secrets while fucking. Or you know, blackmail him because of it.) I had a difficult time upvoting this post - although I did, because I think it's true - just because of the "I'm glad he reported them" sentence. Yuan was objectively right in reporting them, but it breaks my heart because I love Elizabeth. I love her commitment and her intelligence and her skills. I want to sit down with her and chat class struggle and makeup tips over vodka shots (although I think she would hate me and call me a class traitor. And she'd be right, I fear). I want to believe that she was right that she is trusted by the Centre and that anything that little twerp Tuan said against her wouldn't hurt her. And I love that, after Tuan insulted her and tried to hurt her with his report, she is still willing and able to mother and mentor him by suggesting that he needs a partner to get through their crazy difficult career. It's a strength of this season that it does ask that question of how do you soldier through without losing your humanity. All of our favourite spies (Philip, Elizabeth, Stan and Oleg) confront this line in the sand in different ways. Tuan is young - as is Paige - and still has to learn what is personally morally acceptable. He doesn't seem to have confronted that yet. But each of the others has, and each has reached, or is reaching, for a different conclusion. I think this season has been a brilliant character study - despite the lack of action - and can't wait to see how it resolves., even as I mourn the fact that I won't see these characters again after next season. 2 Link to comment
Erin9 June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 8 minutes ago, Kokapetl said: It would be interesting to see Elizabeth partner up with Tuan or Claudia. Claudia can be so disarming, like as the stupid Texan who locked herself out of her niece's apartment. I don't see either happening. Claudia is the handler. Plus, she's a bit old to take on the kind of work Philip and Elizabeth do. They don't trust each other anyway. It wouldn't work. Tuon doesn't work for the Soviet Union. This was a one-off. If they did it, we'd really just see more of what we've seen this season: It would probably function more as either a mentorship because of his lack of experience or an opportunity to demonstrate that Elizabeth is burning out and less hard core. I don't see any value in seeing more of Tuon really. That last conversation felt pretty final. I doubt either would want to work with each other again given Tuon's report anyhow. No trust. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 42 minutes ago, Trillian said: Petite bourgeoisie - in English, sometimes "petty" - has a specific meaning in Marxist thought as someone who does not own the means of production but who nonetheless is not of the working class. Common examples would be doctors and lawyers. The term does not work well with a post-industrialist society, where the distinction between the bourgeoisie (roughly approximating the "middle class") and the working class becomes blurred. I think that Tuan was using "petty" in the sense of small-minded, rather than referring to their class ideology. Either way, though, it's a pretty big insult. I had a difficult time upvoting this post - although I did, because I think it's true - just because of the "I'm glad he reported them" sentence. Yuan was objectively right in reporting them, but it breaks my heart because I love Elizabeth. I love her commitment and her intelligence and her skills. I want to sit down with her and chat class struggle and makeup tips over vodka shots (although I think she would hate me and call me a class traitor. And she'd be right, I fear). I want to believe that she was right that she is trusted by the Centre and that anything that little twerp Tuan said against her wouldn't hurt her. And I love that, after Tuan insulted her and tried to hurt her with his report, she is still willing and able to mother and mentor him by suggesting that he needs a partner to get through their crazy difficult career. It's a strength of this season that it does ask that question of how do you soldier through without losing your humanity. All of our favourite spies (Philip, Elizabeth, Stan and Oleg) confront this line in the sand in different ways. Tuan is young - as is Paige - and still has to learn what is personally morally acceptable. He doesn't seem to have confronted that yet. But each of the others has, and each has reached, or is reaching, for a different conclusion. I think this season has been a brilliant character study - despite the lack of action - and can't wait to see how it resolves., even as I mourn the fact that I won't see these characters again after next season. Thanks. For me, I just didn't hate Tuan. I think it was totally in character for him to report accurately, and I think that was probably much worse for Philip than it was for Elizabeth. Philip, after all, was the one who went completely off the reservation. Elizabeth reported him herself when the show first began. I think Tuan and Elizabeth are very much alike, and the showrunners have specifically said they created Tuan (plot point Tuan) mostly as a reflection of an Elizabeth squared, or an Elizabeth on mild steroids. Ha. I hope that makes sense. My personal problem with the reactions to Tuan is that we are looking at Elizabeth really, he's a magnification of her, so if you can't stand him, why stand Elizabeth? The easy answer is that we never got to see more sides of Tuan, because they show really didn't bother, while we've seen Elizabeth in all kinds of scenes as she is a lead. True, Tuan didn't have the life experience that only comes with age, to see the complexities of human emotions that might result from actions he takes. However, I still think he is an excellent agent, for his age, and I do think every single thing he did was to accomplish the task set for him. I don't think he's evil, or mean, or vicious, he's simply a spy, and spies do awful things to people. We may have seen other sides to Tuan if they bothered to show him anywhere but with Philip and Elizabeth, but unfortunately, they didn't. With them, of course he was striving to look as competent and professional as possible. After he was criticized by them for the phone about his sick foster brother, he doubled down to prove he could do the job. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 2, 2017 Share June 2, 2017 10 minutes ago, Umbelina said: True, Tuan didn't have the life experience that only comes with age, to see the complexities of human emotions that might result from actions he takes. However, I still think he is an excellent agent, for his age, and I do think every single thing he did was to accomplish the task set for him. I don't think he's evil, or mean, or vicious, he's simply a spy, and spies do awful things to people. Except for running off to call his brother, which is also classic Elizabeth. He's willing to justify his own actions and later show he was an even better agent by taking responsibility after begging them not to tell on him, but he still wouldn't give any slack to anyone else showing similar emotions. He wound up making his own stumble something to use against them. The funny thing about Tuan vs. Elizabeth re: Philip is that there's no reason to think Philip was actually a problem back then. Tuan didn't make a point of saying that Philip was so much worse than Elizabeth. She ordered him to call Pasha, after all. I think he wrote them both up as problems. Just as Elizabeth back in the day reported Philip not, it doesn't seem, for putting anything at risk by caring about a dying kid or anything else, but simply for not talking about America exactly the way she did. She and Tuan are both on one hand exactly what agents are supposed to be, but otoh examples of why that kind of society doesn't work because they just eat their own. Elizabeth might think she's obviously totally loyal, but up-and-comer Tuan could easily dismiss her as a failure. (And send her to the closet and kitchen to contemplate her clothes and dishwasher while he fills up his own wardrobe while telling himself it's all for his cover.) 6 Link to comment
Erin9 June 3, 2017 Share June 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Umbelina said: Interesting that you guys brought up that we don't really know why Pasha misses the Soviet Union so much. (It's not Russia yet to me, it's still the USSR. ;) I've meant to mention for a while now that on one of the podcasts, the showrunners admitted that we don't really get to know these new people the way we've known people like Nina, Martha, and others in the past. They flat out admitted that they were just devices to move the story *plot points* is the way I'd term that. We never see them alone or with others, they haven't been made multi-denominational, they only exist when Philip and Elizabeth are with them. I was shocked to hear them admit that, but they said it like it was no big deal to write characters as nothing more than something to move whatever story they think they were telling forward. That may explain another reason that this season just didn't work for me. For me- the question isn't why Pasha misses his homeland, it's why wouldn't he. Of course, he misses something. America offers more freedom, opportunities, convenience and things. There's plenty to attract one to come- hence why we have so many immigrants. But I assume he left behind family and friends. He seems to like hockey, which I understand is popular there. Well, not only are his American classmates not going to root for Soviet teams, there's not a high level of interest in the sport here. So- he's not bonding over sports. He probably misses speaking the language he feels comfortable with all the time, rather than just at home. The show didn't explain it, but I didn't feel I needed to hear it either. It seemed logical. He obviously isn't the type of kid who adapts easily to change either. And this would be a big one even if it was to a nicer country. Even Alexei admitted to missing home. I think the reason we didn't dig into the Russian family or Tuon too deep is that they knew they weren't going to spend multiple seasons developing these characters. We may see them again, but I doubt it. They weren't meant to last and weren't super important in their own right a la- Nina, Martha, Oleg, etc. And that's okay imo. They can't all be given that time. Especially since they weren't connected to the FBI or rezidentura. They served a purpose though. And I did have some empathy for them. Well not Tuon though. P and E got to see a family struggle with immigration to the "easy" country. They learned more about life back home. Elizabeth got a bit of a view into how she's evolved over the years via Tuon. (I don't think we ever saw her as hardcore as Tuon is. Even in S1. But I can easily believe she was like that at the beginning of her career.) For all the focus Philip's burnout gets, hers is not insignificant. Specifically regarding this one mission: She made the demand that Tuon call Pasha. She was upset about Pasha. And she wasn't happy about the break up of that family either. She opted not to tell on Tuon- when he actually did something that could compromise the mission. This from the woman who once informed on Philip for just liking America more than she did. She's evolved. She sees the value in having someone to share things with, that she may not have fully appreciated earlier. No one can go solo forever. Gabriel, William and Claudia would all agree. By the same token, having a true partner complicates things too. Perhaps the takeaway is- the spy life has a shelf life. 5 Link to comment
kokapetl June 3, 2017 Share June 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Erin9 said: I don't see either happening. Claudia is the handler. Plus, she's a bit old to take on the kind of work Philip and Elizabeth do. They don't trust each other anyway. It wouldn't work. Tuon doesn't work for the Soviet Union. This was a one-off. If they did it, we'd really just see more of what we've seen this season: It would probably function more as either a mentorship because of his lack of experience or an opportunity to demonstrate that Elizabeth is burning out and less hard core. I don't see any value in seeing more of Tuon really. That last conversation felt pretty final. I doubt either would want to work with each other again given Tuon's report anyhow. No trust. Claudia followed Philip walking around Gregory's ghetto for like 40 minutes before being yanked out from behind a post scooby do style. She killed Patterson, who Elizabeth couldn't. Link to comment
Erin9 June 3, 2017 Share June 3, 2017 Just now, Kokapetl said: Claudia followed Philip walking around Gregory's ghetto for like 40 minutes before being yanked out from behind a post scooby do style. She killed Patterson, who Elizabeth couldn't. Claudia is not going to run around getting into physical fights with people the way E and P so often have. She didn't take Philip out herself. She had help. And he got caught in a phone booth iirc. Then Elizabeth beat her up. Easily. I never said Claudia couldn't kill people. She's always been harder than even Elizabeth. Actually not killing Patterson is another example of Elizabeth's gradual weakening. But her job is to be Elizabeth's handler, not her partner. And they still don't trust each other. And Claudia is a bit old for the craziness of that lifestyle day in and out. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina June 3, 2017 Share June 3, 2017 (edited) I understand what you are saying Erin9, but to me it is significant, not because I couldn't fan-wank why Pasha was lonely, because, as you say, easy to do that. The problem is that all of these new people didn't really capture our interest because (as the writers actually admitted, which frankly shocked me) they were never meant to be whole people, but simply plot points to move the story along. I think we weren't invested because the writers weren't really invested, or at least I wasn't, and the sad thing is, I wanted to be. All season long people have been saying that they appreciated the character based stories this year, rather than plot based. That's the thing though, we didn't get those, except for the Jennings and a tiny bit of Oleg's family. Even there though, we only saw his parents WITH Oleg. These weren't fully drawn real characters in a way, because they were just there to cause our "stars" to react in some way, commonly called "plot points." I've been saying all season that the pace was off, that in the past we had plenty of action and tension along with amazing characters we cared about. Now I'm realizing the characters were off as well. The writers didn't care about them, except as devices, rather anvil-y devices at that to bang home various challenges of Paige, Elizabeth, Stan, and most of all, Philip, with a tiny bit of Oleg thrown in. See Oleg realize Soviet justice and spying sucks, make his mom a former prisoner. Walk around sadly as your good deed is hovering and threatening you with your mom's fate. (This one almost worked because, though obvious, it hinged on a remarkable story from last year that was so well done.) See Stan realize he doesn't trust the FBI to actually protect a vulnerable source anymore, and spying sucks. Again, hinged on past well done story, but I wanted to know the one with pain from teeth, and we didn't get to know her at all. She was just a Nina stand in. See (fill in the name of any of our spies) realized spying sucks, with similar plot point new people who are not whole so we are removed from them, unlike the show in the past which made us care about ALL of them. See Gabe quit because spying sucks. Other obvious plot point anvils that are frankly insulting from this team of writers who have blown me away for years now. Paige as Pasha--what will moving to a strange country DO to poor Paige? Misha as Pasha--will Misha be held over Philip's head as Pasha will be held over his mother's to make them do whatever the KGB says? Tuan as Elizabeth--got it. You still could have made Tuan "whole" because frankly, he was one of the most interesting characters on screen, but you didn't, which is sad. Bad teeth woman as Nina--because of course Stan must angst away, but although I would have loved to see her, for example, fall for the hockey guy, or meet her son, or just get a glimpse of her at work, you didn't bother. She's just a pale shadow of Nina for plot, not a whole person. I can't even think of her real name. It goes on like that with all of the characters added this year, just for plot and anvils, not to actually know or care about them, and I think the show really suffered because of that. Instead of, as people said, this being a character slow burn year, it was much more plot that character, and poorly planned plot at that. Anvils dropping from the sky, obvious, sloppy, and so beneath the former excellent work they've done. ETA The other major problem I had with this season is, as I've said before the cock-tease nature of it, with very little payoff. Misha, Stan's girlfriend, Philip's childhood, etc. Do it or don't do it, move along, quit teasing and dragging everything out for no pay off at all. Edited June 3, 2017 by Umbelina 5 Link to comment
kokapetl June 3, 2017 Share June 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, Erin9 said: Claudia is not going to run around getting into physical fights with people the way E and P so often have. She didn't take Philip out herself. She had help. And he got caught in a phone booth iirc. Then Elizabeth beat her up. Easily. I never said Claudia couldn't kill people. She's always been harder than even Elizabeth. Actually not killing Patterson is another example of Elizabeth's gradual weakening. But her job is to be Elizabeth's handler, not her partner. And they still don't trust each other. And Claudia is a bit old for the craziness of that lifestyle day in and out. Claudia has a taser. She's prepared. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 3, 2017 Share June 3, 2017 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Misha as Pasha--will Misha be held over Philip's head as Pasha will be held over his mother's to make them do whatever the KGB says? Which makes me also question...Pyotr as Pasha? (Pyotr being Philip's unnamed brother.) Isn't one of the advantages to having Illegals with family back in the USSR that you can hold them hostage? We know Elizabeth was in limited contact with her mother, getting tapes. There wouldn't be much reason to threaten her given Elizabeth's record. Now we know Philip has a brother. We know that Gabriel knew Philip's personality well enough that he used Mischa to pressure him even when Gabriel knew that Philip didn't even know of his existence either until recently or until the very moment Gabriel told him about it and used him for pressure. What is the relationship like between these two brothers that he's not ongoing leverage or anything else, as far as we know? Or is he and that's another thing they don't tell us? This is the type of thing that makes me really agree with this: 50 minutes ago, Umbelina said: All season long people have been saying that they appreciated the character based stories this year, rather than plot based. That's the thing though, we didn't get those, except for the Jennings and a tiny bit of Oleg's family. Feeling are subjective, but to me it felt like this season had less character stuff than any other. Some moments seem like obvious important beats, like Elizabeth telling Paige she was raped, but I felt a ton more character stuff in past seasons. To use the brother example, in the past Elizabeth's flashbacks have been used to illuminate her character. We see scenes that show things she believes and why, we've seen her struggle with decisions. Here for the first time Philip remembers his family and we find out he has a brother. But the character arc is him figuring out that his father was a prison guard. And maybe this also ties into his being beaten up as a kid? (You'd think if the bullying were personal they might have said something that tipped him off about that?) That, to me, seems like avoiding the actual character stuff in favor a hypothetical for Philip to struggle with internally, one that to me just seemed to say Philip is on the lookout for more things to be self-loathing about. It re-hit the theme of the past generation doing bad things to survive, like with Gabriel and Oleg's parents. But those people were still alive and interacting with their children (or symbolic children) in a living relationship. Philip's father isn't even as much of a living presence as Elizabeth's because there's no relationships in his story at all. Philip's memories of his father changed from "hazy figure I'm vaguely positive and a little sad about" to "hazy figure I'm vaguely positive and a little sad about who might have done cruel things at his job." The Henry story was kind of the same way. Instead of giving Henry a story where he was growing up and changing and interacting with his family the way Paige did at his age, there was another little mystery plot ("what's going on with Henry?") with a weak answer ("he's got a new friend Chris he wants to be his girlfriend and is into being a smart preppie!"). Elizabeth didn't seem to care overmuch about it, Paige folded it into her general martyrdom. Philip seemed to care, but in a helpless, weakly flaily way. It wasn't a character story at all, except as just an announcement that Henry had decided to be this guy now and maybe he can't. But at his age Paige wanted to be the best little girl in Bible Study and it didn't last forever. Edited June 3, 2017 by sistermagpie 3 Link to comment
Umbelina June 3, 2017 Share June 3, 2017 (edited) I completely agree @sistermagpie, and great additional catches there! That's why I started the "Predict what will happen" thread for the final season. I feel that we've had so many, quite obvious, and frankly blunt plot points dropped on us this season that they absolutely must mean something. It's like a first time writer took over this season or something. It was very goal oriented, a Tuan season if you will. Get the job done, line up all these plot points and to hell with finesse, or complexity, just accomplish your goal. From that, it seems simple to assume a few things that will happen next season and how they will end this. If I'm correct in my top 3 guesses over there, I'm not sure how I will feel about it. Hopefully though, even though they say the finished writing next season while this one was still airing? They will go back and refine it enough to give us something of the glory and finesse of the first four seasons. Edited June 3, 2017 by Umbelina 1 Link to comment
Erin9 June 3, 2017 Share June 3, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: I understand what you are saying Erin9, but to me it is significant, not because I couldn't fan-wank why Pasha was lonely, because, as you say, easy to do that. The problem is that all of these new people didn't really capture our interest because (as the writers actually admitted, which frankly shocked me) they were never meant to be whole people, but simply plot points to move the story along. I think we weren't invested because the writers weren't really invested, or at least I wasn't, and the sad thing is, I wanted to be. All season long people have been saying that they appreciated the character based stories this year, rather than plot based. That's the thing though, we didn't get those, except for the Jennings and a tiny bit of Oleg's family. Even there though, we only saw his parents WITH Oleg. These weren't fully drawn real characters in a way, because they were just there to cause our "stars" to react in some way, commonly called "plot points." I've been saying all season that the pace was off, that in the past we had plenty of action and tension along with amazing characters we cared about. Now I'm realizing the characters were off as well. The writers didn't care about them, except as devices, rather anvil-y devices at that to bang home various challenges of Paige, Elizabeth, Stan, and most of all, Philip, with a tiny bit of Oleg thrown in. See Oleg realize Soviet justice and spying sucks, make her mom a former prisoner. Walk around sadly as your good deed is hovering and threatening you with your mom's fate. (This one almost worked because, though obvious, it hinged on a remarkable story from last year that was so well done.) See Stan realize he doesn't trust the FBI to actually protect a vulnerable source anymore, and spying sucks. Again, hinged on past well done story, but I wanted to know the one with pain from teeth, and we didn't get to know her at all. She was just a Nina stand in. See (fill in the name of any of our spies) realized spying sucks, with similar plot point new people who are not whole so we are removed from them, unlike the show in the past which made us care about ALL of them. Other obvious plot point anvils that are frankly insulting from this team of writers who have blown me away for years now. Paige as Pasha--what will moving to a strange country DO to poor Paige? Misha as Pasha--will Misha be held over Philip's head as Pasha will be held over his mother's to make them do whatever the KGB says? Tuan as Elizabeth--got it. You still could have made Tuan "whole" because frankly, he was one of the most interesting characters on screen, but you didn't, which is sad. Bad teeth woman as Nina--because of course Stan must angst away, but although I would have loved to see her, for example, fall for the hockey guy, or meet her son, or just get a glimpse of her at work, you didn't bother. She's just a pale shadow of Nina for plot, not a whole person. I can't even think of her real name. It goes on like that with all of the characters added this year, just for plot and anvils, not to actually know or care about them, and I think the show really suffered because of that. Instead of, as people said, this being a character slow burn year, it was much more plot that character, and poorly planned plot at that. Anvils dropping from the sky, obvious, sloppy, and so beneath the former excellent work they've done. I actually don't disagree as much as it might seem. And I totally see your point. It just doesn't bother me as much. There isn't much time left. I'd rather focus on Philip, Elizabeth, Oleg, Stan, even the Gabriel that we got rather that invest too much time into a bunch of newbies just so I can deeply care about them. When I think of all the things that we'll probably run out of time to see and learn about the core characters, it just doesn't bother me too much that these new characters were mostly used for the purposes of the main characters. And I did care about some of them to a point. I really did care about Sofia. She endeared herself to me even with the lack of airtime. While Sofia certainly wasn't Nina to Stan or to us, that she came across as sweet and naive made it easy to care for her imo. Sure Nina was a big part of what's driven his burnout, but it was easy to see how Sofia was just one more life he could potentially ruin because she'd know but not KNOW what she was getting into.( I can be pretty hard on Stan, but his speech to Renee in the end was one of his finest moments imo.) The same goes for Oleg's parents. I cared about his dad already actually, starting from way back when his brother died. His dad ranting about how he couldn't give his son a hero's funeral got to me. Then, he gave his son a bit of a military sendoff anyway. Good stuff. Even this season, I throughly enjoyed watching Oleg interact with his parents and get to know them better. It worked for me. I didn't want to really see Pasha bullied. So I'm good on that. Maybe we could have seen more of him though. Maybe more on the parents too, but I cared enough to feel sad for their total destruction. And enough to feel sick about Pasha's suicide attempt. I was stressed watching the beginning of the show. I liked the comparison of their family to the Jennings, things that Alexei said that resonated with Philip, both P and E caring about Pasha partly because they also thought as parents. Deidre amused me, beyond just her purpose to Philip. She might have been interesting to learn more about. Ben-yeah- he did nothing for me. I really only cared to see him to witness Elizabeth's burnout. I do think Tuon is the main new character that really could have been better served by seeing more of him because he was generally unsympathetic, but that brief mention of him visiting his family did help bridge the gap a bit, made him human. But I did like seeing him contrasted against Elizabeth. I didn't feel that it was a plot based season. It really was all about the burn out of the primary characters. Based fully in character. And, for me, that worked. And yeah they used a bunch of new characters to help drive it home. That worked for me. ETA- I'm still annoyed that we don't know near enough about Philip's past though. We made progress but I want more. And I really think they should do more with Henry with the family before it's over. Those are 2 of my biggest criticisms. And we need to see everyone DO something about their burnouts soon. That or it'll be done for them imo. Edited June 3, 2017 by Erin9 1 Link to comment
Hecate7 June 3, 2017 Share June 3, 2017 On 5/31/2017 at 11:55 AM, Bannon said: Not "kids". Kid. That's the problem with needing perfect confidentiality among an ever expanding group of people holding a secret. It becomes statistically near impossible to achieve, absent extraordinary training. For instance, one kid showing up high to an event/setting where adults aren't going to tolerate a kid being high, the kid gets sweated, and gives everybody up. If you don't doubt the news reports exist, why do you suppose Phil is immune to the phenomena? Back in the day, kids were a lot less open with their parents about that stuff. Even if they were sweated, they were less likely then than they are now to just tell the truth about exactly who was there and what was going on, and adults were less likely to listen or think it was true anyway. Back then, they tended to be a lot more closed mouthed: entire neighborhoods of kids experienced drugs, gang rape, shoplifting, underage drinking, and affairs with adults without anyone ever being any the wiser. Could it have all been exposed easily? Yes. Was it? Hardly ever, even though kids did occasionally blab and rumors went around like wildfire--usually the rumors were dismissed as tall tales told by bored or jealous kids. Actually getting a reliable description of Old Jim or his weed would be pretty tough. "There's some old guy hanging around sometimes" isn't going to be enough to lead to Philip anyway. 6 Link to comment
dubbel zout June 3, 2017 Share June 3, 2017 We seeing Elizabeth finally start to see shades of gray. America isn't the worst and the USSR isn't the best. There's good and bad in both countries, and neither is above using their own people for their own purposes. Aside from fatigue from the sheer number of operations they're running, I think learning that the USSR used the toxin sample from William on the mujahideen and that the wheat thing was a bust was a huge blow to Elizabeth's faith in her mission. It probably started with having to burn Young Hee, but this season it took hold in earnest. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina June 3, 2017 Share June 3, 2017 (edited) That's the other thing. I don't think they are running many operations. They've had the one off, "go kill the former nazi" and wheat, which they've ignored now for weeks. Kimmie and the Tuan op are the only ones I remember being on going. Compared to other seasons, running Martha, running long term assets like Young Hee, and the AA woman, William and the assorted bio weapons, and training Hans, the Apartheid stuff, and suitcase girl, and mujaheddin, the navy op, etc. which required frequent check ins, etc. Just what ARE the "running" now? Kimmie is a once every 2 weeks thing. The Tuan op, and we know they left him on his own for most of it, he complained about that. Once in a while having a short chat/meeting with Pasha's parents? I mean seriously, compared to other seasons? BFD What am I missing? Edited June 3, 2017 by Umbelina 1 Link to comment
RedHawk June 3, 2017 Share June 3, 2017 (edited) Despite certain disappointments, and a concern that the writers could fail us in the final season, I liked this episode and may even rewatch the entire season over the next few weeks. Edited June 3, 2017 by RedHawk Agreeing to disagree on a circular argument 2 Link to comment
SunnyBeBe June 3, 2017 Share June 3, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, RedHawk said: Despite certain disappointments, and a concern that the writers could fail us in the final season, I liked this episode and may even rewatch the entire season over the next few weeks. I suppose that I could rewatch this season too, but, I'm not sure if it would help or just exacerbate my disappointment. Maybe, I'm overthinking it. lol I've been told that I think too much about a show instead of just watching it. Edited June 3, 2017 by SunnyBeBe Link to comment
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