S04.E08: Sari, Not Sari...

[Sage47]

Wow, Will Folks sure has a hard on for Kathryn, you can almost see the drool stains when you read a piece he has written on her. Kathryn is beautiful but is she the most stunning creature on earth or even in SC? Nah. Take it easy Will. 

It was Will Folks' drooling over Kathryn that made Thomas go after her in the first place. The whole thing was a bit...icky. 

The defenders of Kathryn have me scratching my head. There is nothing left to defend. She is vindictive, lacking empathy, manipulative, a user...but most importantly, she cares more about drugs than her children. Ewww. 

I agree full stop with Scooby. I don't like the way Chelsea treats Austen. She has very high confidence and a lot of cockiness. She thinks she is all that and it's clear she is not that into Austen as she was grossed out by a little of his sweat. Among other clues: how she talks to him like a buddy. Cut him loose Chelsea. He's actually a nice guy. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Sage47

[slowpoked]

19 minutes ago, Major Bigtime said:

The reason I don't buy the Shep/Craig storyline of being supportive to Kathryn is because neither of them want anything to do with her since the season wrapped filming.

Maybe something happened towards the end of filming or just after they finished? Because it seemed like everyone was in good spirits when they came back from Key West to film Cam's birthday celebration. Kathryn even mentioned on social media that she had a good time with everyone AND Thomas. As I recall, that was also the first "event" in which the entire cast was there, including secondary cast members such as Danni, Jen and JD/Elizabeth. I think they're making Cam's birthday the penultimate episode of the season.

Is the episode for Saint's birthday coming up? I don't see it in any of the previews yet. That was apparently the first event in which Bravo strictly ordered the entire cast to film with Kathryn.

[zoeysmom]

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I happen to find Naomi just as attractive as most of the women on this show.  I happen to think that Kathryn is exceptionally attractive physically, but, what good does that really do, when you have such stunted personality growth and few redeeming qualities?  Naomi is not perfect in the way she allows Craig to push her buttons, but, I don't see how describing her as a four legged animal helps demonstrate her character as a person.  She appears well groomed and clean, from what I have seen and has not tried to intentionally hurt people. 

As I said, it is rare I make a comment about a Bravolebrity's, god given looks, but with Naomie, there just seems to be an insecurity about her and I don't find her as attractive as Cameran, Kathryn or even Landon.  My guess is she is maybe insecure in the shallow world this show depicts.  It doesn't help she is involved with a peacock like Craig who was blessed with very good looks and does tend to trade on them.  I believe she compensates on Craig's back by trying to earn the others' approval by publicly berating him.  I am a little tired of her proclaiming how much she must love Craig because of what she puts up with in their relationship.  I would not encourage a person of her ilk to be involved with my son-just because it doesn't seem healthy.  So it is a pretty tawdry on my part to liken Naomie to a dog.

If you are dating someone/living with someone who has certain personality traits, the idea is to learn to accept them or move on.  Curing tardiness is an attainable goal, as it does have a profound impact of the tardy person's ability to maintain successful business and personal relationships. I can't think of many relationships where a person demands so much change in another.  I found Naomie, who I really liked initially, a very difficult person.  She does not  seem to be all that reliable in how she recounts the interactions with Craig.  For example, I didn't see him "scream at her in front of everyone", he called her a moron (wrong) and walked away, there was no one around.  Naomie fails to acknowledge her part in the drama, with the little remarks about him sleeping in his rental.

I think the final straw was when she called him "a sensitive LITTLE man", after Craig was trying to communicate with her he is sensitive to criticism.  I live on the other side of the country and I can't decide if we are being shown these Southern Belle types who are very self-centered and it is part of their schtick the producers are aiming for entertainment purposes or if we are suppose to be sympathetic to their various stations in life.  I would apply this across the board to Kathryn, Landon, Chelsea and Naomie and for different reasons Cameran. 

To me, the biggest part of this season has been the continual put downs of Craig and men like Shep and Whitney cheering on a break up with Naomie-because she is tired of Craig's schtick.  I find a hard time demeaning a person who is writing a thesis and getting ready to sit for the bar exam as a schtick.  He was also volunteering and raising money for a charity and investing in real estate.  There may come a time when Naomie looks back with or without Craig a realizes she was being pretty unrealistic in her expectations.  One thing I cannot imagine the other men on the show wanting to date Naomie after she has been so negative towards Craig-her so-called love. 

[Natalie68]

16 hours ago, breezy424 said:

Whoa.  Wait.  If TRav doesn't have a nighttime nanny, who are with the kids during the overnight hours?  If that's the case, nope, it's not ok to leave your children, especially at that young age, to be in a separate building.  Ok.  At any underage...

I think it was mentioned he stays at the guest house with the kids at night.  

[scenicbyway]

What is Craig's problem?  He doesn't want anyone to know that he and Naomi fight, yet he thinks its ok to call her a moron and stupid in front of their friends and she's just supposed to laugh it off because it's "Naomi and Craig against the world!"  Huh?  Naomi's complaints are completely valid and as usual, Craig has zero self awareness.  I hope this is just contrived drama to keep them in the spotlight on the show and not real life drama.

Cameran (as usual) is right, everyone should be staying far away from the Thomas and Kathryn drama until they get themselves worked out.  Only JD and Elizabeth should be talking to them about it, because they are close friends (and mature adults who know what its like to parent and have a loving relationship).  Neither Craig or Shep are in any position to insert themselves into the drama (which means Thomas and Kathryn shouldn't be invited to the same gatherings at this point).

I thought Patricia's friend was ridiculous, and maybe that was the point.  Talking down to the dinner guests like they were children, they are all over 30 with the exception of Naomi?  Pat did try to warn her ahead of time, but she really thought she could control the group with her giant diamond ring.  The Saris did look beautiful.

Going to Whitney, I think means Kathryn was just desperate to get back into the drama of the show.  She's done Yoga with Shep...snore because they have nothing in common.  Lunch with Craig (her champion for some reason eventhough he's the only guy she rejected on the show ...also the only guy who doesn't have money).  And then writing the letter to Thomas, whom she hasn't spoken to in a year?  Because he gave Jennifer a hankie at the reunion when she was crying over her high risk baby?  Thomas giving Jennifer a hankie does not mean he was sleeping with her.  It means he had compassion for a situation no one would hope to be in.

I'm guessing their building to another Landon/Thomas/Kathryn triangle fight.  News flash.  Landon and Thomas are friendly, not flirty.  We've seen what that looked like with Landon flirting all over Austen.

Also, poor Austen and his family, also for having to tell the story at a trampoline park.  Ugh.

[xtwheeler]

On 5/23/2017 at 8:15 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm no mental health professional, but, there are a couple of personality disorders that really mesh with Kathryn's behavior.  I wonder if she's been told that before.  

 

Here are some things they look at:

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment

A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationshipscharacterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

Identity disturbance, such as a significant and persistent unstable self-image or sense of self

Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)

Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior

Emotional instability due to significant reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

Chronic feelings of emptiness

Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

Transient, stress-related paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms

Based on what Kathryn has said HERSELF about HERSELF, it looks like she has most, if not all of these.  It's concerning.  I'd be very cautious with the kids.  People with this kind of thing, don't necessarily have to be substance abusers, based on what I have read. 

 

On 5/23/2017 at 10:02 AM, Luckylondon said:

Well, I am and Kathryn absolutely meets those criteria and presents as personality disordered. She is not my patient, however, we all have observed a lot and everything about Kathryn screams borderline personality disorder to me. Of particular note, how disorganized she makes others. Just bringing up her turned that party of adults in to yelling at each other (none of whom were Thomas) and told to go home. And she wasn't even there. I have seen this happen to treatment teams many times. Kathryn's personality structure is very broken, and dysfunctional in accomplishing any effective social, relationship, occupational functioning. To me, the substance use is a symptom and needs treatment as she will never get better without it, but the personality disorder is the larger issue and they complicate each other. 

 

On 5/23/2017 at 0:42 PM, sadie said:

Wow! A dark scenario I had not considered. It's a good theory. Kathryn had the "physicality" he wanted, tall,  attractive, white, some prestigious leniage but the added bonus would be knowing she was unstable she would be easily swept aside. I hope that's not the case as he is playing with fire with her life. I have long thought this problem falls equally on them both. She is manipulative but he should have known better but under your theory he DID know better and did it tactically. Hmmmmmm.....

All of the above (excellent analyses!) is why I find myself responding to Kathryn with more empathy than exasperation and desire to shun (though if she were actually IN my life, I'd probably have to distance myself in an act of self-preservation).  Kathryn and Thomas were a perfect storm waiting to happen, whether or not either of them was aware of it. Kathryn was, as a result of her personality disorder (which I believe she was trying to self-medicate) desperately seeking a permanent place in a family that could not and would not ever leave her. As part of her personality disorder she desperately craved as a basic survival need, the stability that she desperately misidentified Thomas as being able to provide. Thomas played right into that telling her he loved her, being clearly desperate to mingle his DNA with her lineage, and promising her the permanent family she desperately psychologically needed. Thomas' mercenary desire for her Confederate DNA caused him to tell her whatever she wanted to hear in order to get the keys to the uterine kingdom. Kathryn leapt at the chance to be a permanent part of the storied and revered Ravenel family, honored and protected by Thomas' declarations of love and devotion, and bonded for eternity by their mutual DNA mixing. Her deep psychological needs in the form of her personality disorder and his mercenary quest for heirs with a proper Confederacy lineage created the perfect storm that I doubt very much either of them recognized particularly consciously.

Kathryn's substance abuse problems on top of her personality disorder spun out to a total disorder once she and Thomas fell apart. Her relationship with Thomas falling apart-- taking away the permanent family that she needed like oxygen--probably felt like death to her. She managed the only way her personality disorder could figure out, through acting out and substance abuse. Survival became more important than her kids.

Those are the reasons I cannot condemn Kathryn as just an asshole, uncaring, junkie. Her underlying personality disorder combined with her substance abuse eliminated a whole lot of her self-determination and decision-making recently. If you're someone who has never fought with the demons of mental illness or substance abuse or both, I know it is hard to understand that things that suck, like breaking up with your babydaddy, can feel psychologically life-threatening, but those moments can feel like matters of life and death. You are acting out feeling like all you are doing is trying to save your own life. I think Katheryn needs a lot of help, and she needs to do a lot of work to address those demons so that some day she can be the mother her kids need. But I won't chalk those things up to her just being an asshole. She is very sick.

[SunnyBeBe]

On 5/23/2017 at 1:10 PM, LIMOM said:

So borderline personality disorder is the new bipolar?

Amazing how every so often an ailment becomes the disorder du jour.

I'm no expert, but, it's my understanding that they are quite different.  And that bi-polar is more easily treated.  Whereas, borderline, is not amenable to medication and is challenging to treat.  Years ago, I read that there was no treatment.  I suppose that has changed. 

[HunterHunted]

7 hours ago, Major Bigtime said:

He doesn't do that, but the show loves to lead people to believe it's true.

The reason I don't buy the Shep/Craig storyline of being supportive to Kathryn is because neither of them want anything to do with her since the season wrapped filming.

They can't show what you don't give them. The reason people think that TRav is always trolling for 20 somethings is because he's often trolling for 20 somethings on camera. A decent proportion of his on camera footage is him acting like a creepster to younger women, talking about younger women in a gross way, or laughing at Whitney's gross creepy comments about younger women. When was the last time he dated anyone in the older half of Generation X? Was his doctor ex-girlfriend the last (or only) time he's dated someone with any familiarity with the age 40?

Edited May 25, 2017 by HunterHunted

[pasdetrois]

Georgette Mosbacher - what a flash from the past. She was constantly in the media here in DC during the opulent 80s. Later she started a cosmetics business that I believe petered out.

Thomas is not complicated. Initially he was very taken with Kathryn, a young, beautiful, sexy woman from a known family dynasty who could provide children, be a glittering social hostess, and manage the household staff. He's immature and impulsive and he dove right in; the drinking didn't help. He envisioned continuation of the two family dynasties, with Kathryn as his adoring partner. He probably thought Kathryn's early histrionics were immaturity; many men are drawn to damaged women.

She was looking for wealth and stability and to be taken care of. She was going to churn out the children and then turn the child rearing over to nannies, which many wealthy people do. They briefly had a common vision for their future, based on their experience, history and culture. I wonder if Kathryn presented her disordered behaviors earlier in her life. Maybe her family was anxious to secure her future and pushed her toward Thomas.

I have known several extremely damaged women like Kathryn. They are all mothers who stayed in their marriages and their children were exposed to these mothers' excessively destructive behaviors, day after day as they grew up. These women did not have maternal instincts or behaviors. Their children are all now adults, from the 20s to the 60s, and every.single.one of them is very damaged as the result of not being protected from their disturbed mothers.

Thomas, the courts and the psychiatric professionals must protect the children from Kathryn and carefully manage her time with them. It's not a diabolical plot. I agree that she probably has a severe psychiatric disorder that is very difficult to treat, especially coupled with addiction. In this day and age, I doubt that Thomas "bought" the court's favorable decisions. The judge may have appointed an independent psychiatric evaluator and a guardian ad litem to represent the children and endeavor on their behalf and make custody recommendations.

I truly believe that Kathryn has a very long road ahead of her, with many ups and downs. It's a tragedy for her children because they will suffer the consequences of having a mentally ill mother.

Edited May 25, 2017 by pasdetrois

[RedDelicious]

Georgette's pearl clutching was ridiculous. It just made her seem even older than she actually is. We saw Patricia upright and ambulating! I was glad to see that. I think I'm the only one who doesn't believe Whitney is gay. I just don't. He's different, but I don't think he's into dudes at all. Again, he reminds me of guys from the film department when I was in college in the 90s. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by RedDelicious

[corter20]

6 hours ago, Major Bigtime said:

He doesn't do that, but the show loves to lead people to believe it's true.

The reason I don't buy the Shep/Craig storyline of being supportive to Kathryn is because neither of them want anything to do with her since the season wrapped filming.

He does do that and it wasn't witnessed or even put on the show. This is through his own interactions off the show. 

[robroy]

15 hours ago, Major Bigtime said:

He doesn't do that, but the show loves to lead people to believe it's true.

The reason I don't buy the Shep/Craig storyline of being supportive to Kathryn is because neither of them want anything to do with her since the season wrapped filming.

I've seen him with what I assumed was a rather trashy 25 year old only to be told she was more like 20. That doesn't mean he knew her age- I only found that out because the son of someone whose Dad has done some contract work for me and used to work with Thomas told me he knew the girl.

I think I'm a bigger cynic than you appear to be but I'll give Craig/Shep the benefit of the doubt. They might have intended to be supportive only to get caught in her web of crazy and burned. And I say that as someone that wants Craig off my television and Shep to get a good kick in the ass to grow up.

[Sage47]

I can agree that Kathryn has a severe personality disorder/is mentally ill. That is obvious. I do have compassion for these problems but the part that holds me back is her sociopathic traits. She seems to have no emotional depth and an ice cold heart with no empathy. 

We have seen her blatantly lying many times...she's just not a good person underneath. It's not her personality disorder, it is HER. 

I'll never forget when Jennifer went over to help her load up Kensie for the polo match (the one where she lost it and left). Kathryn just grumbled the whole time about all the work she had to do with a baby, and was making Jennifer do some of that work for her. Very entitled. 

She never realized that having kids was so much work and I'm sure is now thrilled that she only has to see them/care for them once in awhile. She's pretty terrible. It can't be denied-personality disorder or no. 

[sasha206]

16 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

As I said, it is rare I make a comment about a Bravolebrity's, god given looks, but with Naomie, there just seems to be an insecurity about her and I don't find her as attractive as Cameran, Kathryn or even Landon.  My guess is she is maybe insecure in the shallow world this show depicts.  It doesn't help she is involved with a peacock like Craig who was blessed with very good looks and does tend to trade on them.

Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder!  I personally think Naomie can look very pretty, although I do think she has odd features that won't age well. I don't think Craig is a peacock or goodlooking.  I think when the show first started, he was attractive.  But I don't hink he's aging well.  He almost has meth face now to me.

I do think they are well matched in terms of maturity.  She comes off as every bit the brat that he does.

Edited May 25, 2017 by sasha206

[Giselle]

Granted it will be interesting as to how she ages but I think Naomie is pretty. MUCH more so than bland featured, bubble forehead Katherine who needs makeup just to be visible on the TV screen and look halfway decent.  I judge prettiness on how they look without the help of makeup.  When I see Katherin's sans makeup face I just see a sea of beige with a mop of red hair. When I have seen Naomie's nude face she looks good.

[xtwheeler]

2 hours ago, Sage47 said:

I can agree that Kathryn has a severe personality disorder/is mentally ill. That is obvious. I do have compassion for these problems but the part that holds me back is her sociopathic traits. She seems to have no emotional depth and an ice cold heart with no empathy. 

We have seen her blatantly lying many times...she's just not a good person underneath. It's not her personality disorder, it is HER. 

That's where I think maybe the term "personality disorder" OS opposed to run of the mill "mental illness" is being misunderstood. With, say, bipolar disorder, the disorder is, to some extent, superimposed on top of the individual personality. This is in part because things like bipolar & schizophrenia tend to manifest after basic personality traits are mostly established. A bipolar person has a mostly established identity, and then bipolar disorder develops on top of that, largely as a biochemical disorder. When properly controlled with medication and therapy, bipolar disorder can be essentially in remission, and the underlying, formed personality is again able to function. 

A personality disorder is actually a disordered development of the inherent personality. Through therapy you can work on how that disordered personality is expressed, and you can learn behavior modification, but it is always going to be intrinsic. 

Here is the analogy. Let's say you are moderately allergic to peanuts. Picking them off of stuff is ok, but eating them is not. You are served two giant sundaes. One is two scoops of vanilla ice cream, chocolate sauce, whipped cream, a cherry, and chopped peanuts on top. You can have the kitchen scrape off the peanuts and eat your sundae without triggering your allergy. The other sundae is two scoops of peanut butter ice cream with rivers of peanut butter, chocolate and peanut butter sauce, and topped with whipped cream and peanuts. No matter what you do those peanuts are integrated to sundae, and cannot be separated out. You cannot unmake the ice cream or sauce and strip out the peanuts. First sundae is personality plus bipolar peanuts, second sundae is personality disorder. 

So when you say "it is not her personality disorder, it is HER" you're both right and wrong. It IS her personality disorder BECAUSE she is  her personality disorder. Unless and until we can rewrite the basic building blocks of an individual's personality and identity (and grapple with those ethics) there is "management" of a personality disorder but no "fix." And the coldness you see, the disregard for others, the mercenary behavior, that IS her and IT IS her personality disorder. 

[Luckylondon]

21 hours ago, lunastartron said:

Thank you for the clarification and this insightful reply. I clipped only due to length but it gave me a lot to think about and I largely agree with many/most of your points.

Thanks for reading it and your response! Glad to have you ask and have the oppportunity to elaborate and clarify my post and my thoughts/experience on the topic. :)

[Luckylondon]

2 hours ago, xtwheeler said:

That's where I think maybe the term "personality disorder" OS opposed to run of the mill "mental illness" is being misunderstood. With, say, bipolar disorder, the disorder is, to some extent, superimposed on top of the individual personality. This is in part because things like bipolar & schizophrenia tend to manifest after basic personality traits are mostly established. A bipolar person has a mostly established identity, and then bipolar disorder develops on top of that, largely as a biochemical disorder. When properly controlled with medication and therapy, bipolar disorder can be essentially in remission, and the underlying, formed personality is again able to function. 

A personality disorder is actually a disordered development of the inherent personality. Through therapy you can work on how that disordered personality is expressed, and you can learn behavior modification, but it is always going to be intrinsic. 

Here is the analogy. Let's say you are moderately allergic to peanuts. Picking them off of stuff is ok, but eating them is not. You are served two giant sundaes. One is two scoops of vanilla ice cream, chocolate sauce, whipped cream, a cherry, and chopped peanuts on top. You can have the kitchen scrape off the peanuts and eat your sundae without triggering your allergy. The other sundae is two scoops of peanut butter ice cream with rivers of peanut butter, chocolate and peanut butter sauce, and topped with whipped cream and peanuts. No matter what you do those peanuts are integrated to sundae, and cannot be separated out. You cannot unmake the ice cream or sauce and strip out the peanuts. First sundae is personality plus bipolar peanuts, second sundae is personality disorder. 

So when you say "it is not her personality disorder, it is HER" you're both right and wrong. It IS her personality disorder BECAUSE she is  her personality disorder. Unless and until we can rewrite the basic building blocks of an individual's personality and identity (and grapple with those ethics) there is "management" of a personality disorder but no "fix." And the coldness you see, the disregard for others, the mercenary behavior, that IS her and IT IS her personality disorder. 

So much YES to this!! So well said XTWHEELER. A Personality Disorder is not a Mental Illness in the same sense that depression, anxiety, bipolar or schizophrenia are mental illnesses that have biological bases and can be treated with medication and therapy. In the long used 5-Axis system (Axis system stopped with new DSM-V), a Personality Disorder was not listed on Axis I with the mental illnesses, nor listed on Axis III with medical illnesses, it was put on Axis II where learning disorders or pervasive developmental disability would be. Not because people with Personality Disorders have learning Disorders or intellectual Disorders or deficits, it is just not considered a physical mental illness. They used to call them Character Disorders. It doesn't make them any less real, it simply has to do with a person's development and something has gone wrong in the developmental structuring of their personality (e.g., their interface with the world is broken). It can be broken in different ways, which is why there are 10 different Personality Disorders broken into 3 clusters. Your interface with the world affects your thought processing (coming in and going out), your emotion regulation and appropriate affect, your interpersonal functioning, and your ability to tolerate distress. People are not able to be diagnosed with a PD until at least 18, because the personality has not yet fully formed. Yet, when the formation of that interface is broken and misperceives things in thoughts and expresses things inappropriately in behavior, is not able to appropriately tolerate distress or regulate emotion or participate in healthy interpersonal relationships, that is when there is a problem. To be a disorder though, it needs to significantly impact at least your social, interpersonal, family, and or occupational functioning (meaning your ability to live appropriately). 

Personality Disorders are incredibly hard to treat and for a long time believed to be untreatable because it is the core and structure of who you are and how you have developed. It cannot be treated with medication to balance your brain chemistry, it is changing how you think, perceive, react, understand, feel, relate, and function in relation to self and others. The treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder (if you can even find it) is usually inpatient co-occurring with something else. Insurance doesn't pay for Personality Disorders as it is not a "Mental Illness" mental illness. One specialized treatment is Dialectal Behavior Therapy, which is a lot of cognitive and behavioral therapy with Eastern philosophy and mindfulness brought in to help the person stay in a place of "wise mind" and not crossing over "the border" in to complete emotional thinking which leads to destructive behaviors. "Borderline" is an antiquated term and confusing to many. These people are not psychotic in the way that a person with schizophrenia can be. However, when they are distressed (and they don't have a high threshold for distress), they cross over the "border" in to what appears to be psychotic and delusional type thinking and behavior. When they calm down, they can return back to more rational thinking. The goal of treatment is to teach coping skills to tolerate distress in order to remain in the "wise mind" which in a Venn diagram would be the middle between rational and emotional thinking, and working hard to avoid either extreme of not having any emotions in decision making or not having any rational thought in decision making, staying in the middle. 

Most people with Personality Disorders don't necessarily seek treatment. The most common to end up in treatment is Borderline Personality Disorder because these people are highly self destructive and destructive in the lives (legal problems) of those around them due to their inability to tolerate distress or regulate emotion and outrageous swings of behavior. Many people with BPD do self-medicate to "handle things" and end up in treatment and many are extremely unhappy because they cannot successful function and want help. It is not easy to treat or change, yet it is possible to help someone learn to cope and function and have plans in place when feelings of distress start. Yet, back to the original poster's point, this is interwoven in to the fabric of the person and that is why it is so difficult to change. It IS WHO YOU ARE and how your internal structure was built. Which is why they make people bonkers because people feel like they have control over their manipulation and outbursts and act horribly anyway. And they DO have control as we all have free will; they just don't know another way to function without A LOT of therapeutic intervention. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Luckylondon
Spelling

[TheFinalRose]

I love a dinner party at Patricia's house. She takes entertaining seriously, in that she is seriously committed to providing a fun evening. Interesting, though, that Austin wasn't included in the invitation. Why was that, as he is a main cast member and he would have had no trouble refraining from saying the F word, as requested.

Cameran was stunning in her sari, and I love how Whitney and Thomas and Shep try and bring it with their wardrobes. That dinner party is what Southern Charm delivers that no other iteration in the Bravo catalogue of lifestyle shows can, imo. I don't need faux shouting to enjoy my 42 minutes each week ... I just need the pretty.

Okay, that said, I would never in a million years call Naomi a dog. She is beautiful. She shines .... and Craig is being an ass to her. I think she loves him but is not happy. The two can coexist. And I think she showed class not asking a question of the seer about him ... especially if she didn't feel "nice" right then. He mutters under his breath at her ... I say it again, Run Naomi. 

Wow. These cast mates have a lot of conflicting feelings about Kathryn, and I don't think it's about her relationship with Thomas. I think Shep and Craig want her back in the fold because they know the ratings/drama were good for the show when she was around, so they don't mind filming with her. Whereas Cameran and Landon don't like that Kathryn steals the spotlight, relegating them to second class storylines, and would rather Kathryn suffer the consequences of her actions by being iced out from the show.  Why would Landon care that Kathryn contacted Whitney, except for the fact that Kathryn might worm her way back onto the show that way, thus giving Landon less camera time?

[SunnyBeBe]

2 hours ago, xtwheeler said:

That's where I think maybe the term "personality disorder" OS opposed to run of the mill "mental illness" is being misunderstood. With, say, bipolar disorder, the disorder is, to some extent, superimposed on top of the individual personality. This is in part because things like bipolar & schizophrenia tend to manifest after basic personality traits are mostly established. A bipolar person has a mostly established identity, and then bipolar disorder develops on top of that, largely as a biochemical disorder. When properly controlled with medication and therapy, bipolar disorder can be essentially in remission, and the underlying, formed personality is again able to function. 

A personality disorder is actually a disordered development of the inherent personality. Through therapy you can work on how that disordered personality is expressed, and you can learn behavior modification, but it is always going to be intrinsic. 

Here is the analogy. Let's say you are moderately allergic to peanuts. Picking them off of stuff is ok, but eating them is not. You are served two giant sundaes. One is two scoops of vanilla ice cream, chocolate sauce, whipped cream, a cherry, and chopped peanuts on top. You can have the kitchen scrape off the peanuts and eat your sundae without triggering your allergy. The other sundae is two scoops of peanut butter ice cream with rivers of peanut butter, chocolate and peanut butter sauce, and topped with whipped cream and peanuts. No matter what you do those peanuts are integrated to sundae, and cannot be separated out. You cannot unmake the ice cream or sauce and strip out the peanuts. First sundae is personality plus bipolar peanuts, second sundae is personality disorder. 

So when you say "it is not her personality disorder, it is HER" you're both right and wrong. It IS her personality disorder BECAUSE she is  her personality disorder. Unless and until we can rewrite the basic building blocks of an individual's personality and identity (and grapple with those ethics) there is "management" of a personality disorder but no "fix." And the coldness you see, the disregard for others, the mercenary behavior, that IS her and IT IS her personality disorder. 

I see your point.

 This piece  is very chunky, but, if you can plow through it, it's pretty interesting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3811091/

[DeepRed]

29 minutes ago, TheFinalRose said:

I love a dinner party at Patricia's house. She takes entertaining seriously, in that she is seriously committed to providing a fun evening. Interesting, though, that Austin wasn't included in the invitation. Why was that, as he is a main cast member and he would have had no trouble refraining from saying the F word, as requested.

Cameran was stunning in her sari, and I love how Whitney and Thomas and Shep try and bring it with their wardrobes. That dinner party is what Southern Charm delivers that no other iteration in the Bravo catalogue of lifestyle shows can, imo. I don't need faux shouting to enjoy my 42 minutes each week ... I just need the pretty.

<snip>

I love seeing Patricia's dinners too.  The chicken curry looked like something I had at an old-fashioned cafeteria once in the South: basically creamed chicken with a bit of curry powder added; nothing terribly spicy or authentic, but delicious.  I love that Patricia takes so much trouble to make a lovely evening for her guests.

... and having written that, maybe I'm turning into a prissy old prude but I think that Craig, Cameran and Shep owe Patricia apologies for behaving like that.  Hey, Craig and Shep could even be gentlemen and say it with flowers.  :)  Not just for dropping F-bombs when asked not to, but for starting a shouting match.  And when your hostess says, "I disagree," you sit up and listen and don't keep shouting over her.  Ugh, they can be so crude and self-centered.  IMO Shep and Craig especially always think they're right, all the time, and if you disagree you're a fucking idiot or fucking stupid.  Riiight.  They don't get that whatever they or anyone else thinks about Kathryn are just opinions, not absolute truth.  There's no right or wrong there.

I'm not a fan of Thomas at all, but carrying on a discussion about him and his baby mama when he's right there next to you is crass.  MYOB.

I know the cast has to bring the drama, but I'm running out of people to root for or even like.  There might be hope for the secondary cast: Jen, Danni, JD & Elizabeth, Gizmo, Charlotte.

[RedHawk]

32 minutes ago, DeepRed said:

IMO Shep and Craig especially always think they're right, all the time, and if you disagree you're a fucking idiot or fucking stupid.  Riiight. 

So true. Both are constantly convinced they are right. Probably why Shep and Craig have that contentious frenemy relationship. Shep is 10 years older than Craig but loves to give him digs about his immaturity and snark on him to other people. Maybe now that Craig has achieved something he will learn to let Shep's barbs fly by. Though I have to admit, many of Shep's snarky remarks about him are soooo funny!

[lunastartron]

23 hours ago, Sage47 said:

 

The defenders of Kathryn have me scratching my head. There is nothing left to defend. She is vindictive, lacking empathy, manipulative, a user...but most importantly, she cares more about drugs than her children. Ewww. 

 

For me, it's all about context.

Is Kathryn a spoiled asshole? You bet. Should she retain primary physical custody of her children? Personally, I don't think so although parents have done egregiously worse and courts have returned their kids to them.

However, there is a persistent and outrageous narrative that Kathryn, boasting a history of substance abuse problems and mental health red flags even before she could legally drink, somehow nefariously ensnared innocent, witless Thomas - the globally traveled, well educated convicted felon and veteran of SC gladiatorial politics - with her manipulations, evil genius, and magic pussy when she set about huntin' for that proverbial gold. And poor him, the grown-ass man closing in on his AARP sixties, having to, you know, actually contend with the repercussions of knocking up his bratty, possibly neurochemically ill and/or sociopathic squeeze not once but twice. 

Simultaneously, there is a clear double standard among the cast (and viewers) in which, to cite just one example, Landon and Cameran literally hail Thomas as a "gentleman" about a week after he berated and chased them out of his dinner party in his own coke- or liquor-fueled meltdown and yet the group (even those who were cheering her on at the time) are still clutching their pearls over a year later vis a vis how "scary" Kathryn was in going off on Whitney on Cumerbland Island.

A contradiction that is just bald misogyny as far as I'm concerned. 

Which doesn't even touch upon the bullshit about how Kathryn is "crazy" (per Landon and Cameran) when she reacts negatively to clearly provocative and and malicious commentary from Landon. (She is of questionable emotional/psychological stability, just not in such matters, which constitute an pretty transparent gaslight)

[slowpoked]

2 hours ago, DeepRed said:

Hey, Craig and Shep could even be gentlemen and say it with flowers.  :)  Not just for dropping F-bombs when asked not to, but for starting a shouting match.  And when your hostess says, "I disagree," you sit up and listen and don't keep shouting over her.  Ugh, they can be so crude and self-centered.  IMO Shep and Craig especially always think they're right, all the time, and if you disagree you're a fucking idiot or fucking stupid.  Riiight.  They don't get that whatever they or anyone else thinks about Kathryn are just opinions, not absolute truth.  There's no right or wrong there.

 

I guess the 'high road" standard that Shep loves to preach to others doesn't apply to him, because he certainly hasn't taken the high road when it comes to women that his friends have shown an interest in pursuing or are pursuing - Kathryn, Chelsea, and probably countless others.

Pompous, self-righteous, hypocrite jackass.

Edited May 25, 2017 by slowpoked

[Natalie68]

7 hours ago, sasha206 said:

Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder!  I personally think Naomie can look very pretty, although I do think she has odd features that won't age well. I don't think Craig is a peacock or goodlooking.  I think when the show first started, he was attractive.  But I don't hink he's aging well.  He almost has meth face now to me.

I do think they are well matched in terms of maturity.  She comes off as every bit the brat that he does.

I don't either.  

[TheFinalRose]

Quote

I don't think Craig is a peacock or goodlooking.

I've never been a fan of Craig's looks either.

[lunastartron]

I think Craig is very good-looking these days when he is casual like at the sip and see or the dinner he prepared for Naomi.

The hollowing of his face has worked in his favor IMO.

Back when he was younger, there was a weird incongruity with the deep lines in his skin but the full/fat/youthful elasticity of the texture. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by lunastartron

[RedDelicious]

I think Craig peacocks.  Look at him standing on his toes. 

[biakbiak]

6 minutes ago, lunastartron said:

I think Craig is very good-looking these days when he is casual like at the sip and see or the dinner he prepared for Naomi.

The hollowing of his face has worked in his favor IMO.

I think he looks 15 to 20 years older than he is and is aging terribly.

[Mindthinkr]

49 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

I think Craig peacocks.  Look at him standing on his toes. 

Craig looks like he's TRav's illegitimate son. Same long face, dimples and ears. 

[sde127]

5 hours ago, TheFinalRose said:

I love a dinner party at Patricia's house. She takes entertaining seriously, in that she is seriously committed to providing a fun evening. Interesting, though, that Austin wasn't included in the invitation. Why was that, as he is a main cast member and he would have had no trouble refraining from saying the F word, as requested.

Cameran was stunning in her sari, and I love how Whitney and Thomas and Shep try and bring it with their wardrobes. That dinner party is what Southern Charm delivers that no other iteration in the Bravo catalogue of lifestyle shows can, imo. I don't need faux shouting to enjoy my 42 minutes each week ... I just need the pretty.

Okay, that said, I would never in a million years call Naomi a dog. She is beautiful. She shines .... and Craig is being an ass to her. I think she loves him but is not happy. The two can coexist. And I think she showed class not asking a question of the seer about him ... especially if she didn't feel "nice" right then. He mutters under his breath at her ... I say it again, Run Naomi. 

Wow. These cast mates have a lot of conflicting feelings about Kathryn, and I don't think it's about her relationship with Thomas. I think Shep and Craig want her back in the fold because they know the ratings/drama were good for the show when she was around, so they don't mind filming with her. Whereas Cameran and Landon don't like that Kathryn steals the spotlight, relegating them to second class storylines, and would rather Kathryn suffer the consequences of her actions by being iced out from the show.  Why would Landon care that Kathryn contacted Whitney, except for the fact that Kathryn might worm her way back onto the show that way, thus giving Landon less camera time?

Had to log in to say I agree 100% with everything you said about the other cast members feelings about Katherine. Couldn't have said it better myself ?

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

Craig looks like he's TRav's illegitimate son. Same long face, dimples and ears. 

Now, you may be onto something! ;-)

Pat's dog-faced caftans are atrocious.

[RedDelicious]

Not to mention, in every photo of this dinner party Thomas is sucking it in for all he's worth. Craig looks like Tony Montana.

[Neurochick]

Why did Shep and Craig rush to defend Kathryn with such passion?  Maybe Shep and Craig are typical "captain save a ho" type men.  They can't feel like men unless they feel they have to "save" a poor little woman like Kathryn.

[zoeysmom]

5 hours ago, biakbiak said:

I think he looks 15 to 20 years older than he is and is aging terribly.

I never thought of Craig pushing 50 in the looks department. Nor Namoie as a beauty here are their favorite head shots: 

Edited May 26, 2017 by zoeysmom

[sasha206]

46 minutes ago, zoeysmom said:

I never thought of Craig pushing 50 in the looks department. Nor Namoie as a beauty here are their favorite head shots: 

Holy spray tan Batman!  I think Craig is photogenic, yes.  But in real life, no.

[fliptopbox]

Personally I think Craig has every right to be mad at Naomie for the things she's been doing. She treats him like shit, or like a child, and when she doesn't get her way she's a Pouty Patty. She also seems to enjoy airing their dirty laundry to anyone who will listen, along with picking fights in a group scenario....and none of that shit is cool in a relationship. She claims to be all "ride or die" to Craig and to the therapist, yet she refuses to take any responsibility for her part/actions that make Craig fired up like that. He doesn't just blow up out of nowhere, there's always a source. It used to be Shep but now it's mostly Naomie. It seems Craig has stepped back from the "scene" (as in, skipping some group gatherings and not caring, dinners at Patricia's, etc..) and it really burns Naomie's ass. She probably expected more fancy parties, meeting "important" people, lots of bar nights, whatever. And Craig seems to mostly be over it. I'm sure half the reason she hooked up with him in the first place was for camera time and dollar signs. Yet when Craig goes to invest his money in real estate suddenly she acts like he's being irresponsible - but he's not. Rental properties can be good business. Plus, since he legally owns the home if for some reason he needs somewhere to live then he's set. Plus we know during filming he was working on his thesis and studying for the bar exam. Going out and partying all the time certainly isn't good for that. The sewing is just filler shit so the cameras aren't just staring at him poring through books or staring at his computer. So what if in his spare time he likes to build things and garden? Those are good skills to have! Naomie is a spoiled brat who doesn't seem to understand that these sort of things are what adults do. Lastly, what does she do with herself? I know she's going for an MBA and all, so one would think she'd be understanding about Craig not being focused on partying so he can finish law school. I also bet that all Naomie really wants is her MRS. degree (preferably with someone of wealth).....then all that fancy education will have been wasted, Has she even said what she plans to do after graduation? Hell.. at least Craig has goals.....and he accomplished them. Can't say that about Naomie.

 

And PS to southern people.....northerners do tend to speak louder. Maybe not everyone, but it is a pretty common trait.

Edited May 26, 2017 by fliptopbox
messed up a word/coherency

[biakbiak]

3 hours ago, fliptopbox said:

y I think Craig has every right to be mad at Naomie for the things she's been doing. She treats him like shit, or like a child, and when she doesn't get her way she's a Pouty Patty. She also seems to enjoy airing their dirty laundry to anyone who will listen, along with picking fights in a group scenario....an

He has said so much worse shit to Cam and to everyone about present at the Sip and See about her. He called her a child, a moron and stupid to several people and during the therapy session the only thing he said was "she started it.

[TheFinalRose]

Quote

Lastly, what does she do with herself? I know she's going for an MBA and all, 

Naomi strikes me as the hardest working member of this cast in real life.

[SunnyBeBe]

7 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

I never thought of Craig pushing 50 in the looks department. Nor Namoie as a beauty here are their favorite head shots: 

Man, I think I might be watching too much reality tv. Is it just me or does Naomi look very much like Adrienne Maloof, formerly on, Housewives of Beverly Hills?  http://www.bravotv.com/the-daily-dish/adrienne-maloof-house-backyard-photos

[Christi]

I think its Naiomi's nose that throws her looks off...looks like its been broken or somthing?

[Sage47]

Craig is good looking enough but I don't find him attractive. He had a craggy face in his mid 20's-why is that?? Was he doing meth? Seriously, he was and is aging very poorly. I also hate that he greases his hair down-and he wears cheesy clothes. 

I am one that thinks Naomie is beautiful. 

I thought Thomas looked so handsome in the scene with his dad. 

Shep was always my favorite but I am seeing him differently lately. He sure does have charisma but he can be mean. He made some semi-cutting put down to Austen in front of Landon, who he (Austen) was enjoying flirting with. I hate those "friends" that love to make fun of you in front of others. Total assholes. 

[Major Bigtime]

I think Naomie is very pretty. Nice to see a natural nose that hasn't been tweaked by plastic surgery. She reminds me a little bit of a young Kim Zolciak.

[TheFinalRose]

Shep is my favorite cast member. To me, he is the sharpest, wittiest, smartest of them all. Yeah, he's not living his life conventionally ... who cares ... but his talking heads never fail to impress me with his vocabulary and his sense of humor. I always say you have to be pretty darn smart to have a good sense of humor and Shep cracks me up. He comes across as well-read and thoughtful and if he's tough on the other cast members it always seems well-intentioned to me--kind of like Mr. Knightly's refusal to let Emma get away with bad behavior. It comes from a good place.

[woodscommaelle]

Kathryn seems better suited for Teen Mom, not this show.

Landon looked almost Duggar-like with her black shirt under her Sari.  Looked strange to me.

[zoeysmom]

10 hours ago, fliptopbox said:

Personally I think Craig has every right to be mad at Naomie for the things she's been doing. She treats him like shit, or like a child, and when she doesn't get her way she's a Pouty Patty. She also seems to enjoy airing their dirty laundry to anyone who will listen, along with picking fights in a group scenario....and none of that shit is cool in a relationship. She claims to be all "ride or die" to Craig and to the therapist, yet she refuses to take any responsibility for her part/actions that make Craig fired up like that. He doesn't just blow up out of nowhere, there's always a source. It used to be Shep but now it's mostly Naomie. It seems Craig has stepped back from the "scene" (as in, skipping some group gatherings and not caring, dinners at Patricia's, etc..) and it really burns Naomie's ass. She probably expected more fancy parties, meeting "important" people, lots of bar nights, whatever. And Craig seems to mostly be over it. I'm sure half the reason she hooked up with him in the first place was for camera time and dollar signs. Yet when Craig goes to invest his money in real estate suddenly she acts like he's being irresponsible - but he's not. Rental properties can be good business. Plus, since he legally owns the home if for some reason he needs somewhere to live then he's set. Plus we know during filming he was working on his thesis and studying for the bar exam. Going out and partying all the time certainly isn't good for that. The sewing is just filler shit so the cameras aren't just staring at him poring through books or staring at his computer. So what if in his spare time he likes to build things and garden? Those are good skills to have! Naomie is a spoiled brat who doesn't seem to understand that these sort of things are what adults do. Lastly, what does she do with herself? I know she's going for an MBA and all, so one would think she'd be understanding about Craig not being focused on partying so he can finish law school. I also bet that all Naomie really wants is her MRS. degree (preferably with someone of wealth).....then all that fancy education will have been wasted, Has she even said what she plans to do after graduation? Hell.. at least Craig has goals.....and he accomplished them. Can't say that about Naomie.

 

And PS to southern people.....northerners do tend to speak louder. Maybe not everyone, but it is a pretty common trait.

I agree with much of your post however, I don't think Naomie wants to get married at this stage in life, I believe she is just interested in being on the show.  I believe Craig thinks and has said the same that southern woman like to leave college with a ring on their finger. 

I also agree that Naomie sees Craig turning down or not pursuing invites as being alienated from the rest of the group.  No offense to Naomie, but when given the chance at Pat's to speak up she sat there like a stuffed animal.  No need to include her in future group scenes. 

Oh an update after almost a month of silence : 

[Alison]

I have mental illness and have Borderline people in my life, so thank you all for your respectful discussions of these topics, and thank you to the professionals in here for offering their insight and knowledge!

 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled snark....I've never seen/heard of Patricia's redheaded monster of a friend prior to this episode, and I hope to never see her again. What a miserable, pompous ass. Listening to Patricia explain the wonders of curry, as though she had just discovered it, made me roll my eyes. Also, and I may need to adjust my meds accordingly, but I found Landon slightly likeable during the dive bar scene with her and Austen. Then Shep came in and she started carrying on in her shrieking, dolphin manner again.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Alison

[DeepRed]

1 hour ago, Alison said:

<snip>

Now, back to your regularly scheduled snark....I've never seen/heard of Patricia's redheaded monster of a friend prior to this episode, and I hope to never see her again. What a miserable, pompous ass. Listening to Patricia explain the wonders of curry, as though she had just discovered it, made me roll my eyes.

<snip>

My mother-in-law discovered the wonders of enchiladas just a couple of years ago.  She had her first bagel & lox last year.  That seems crazy, I know, but there are people who aren't very experienced food-wise.  It always takes me aback a little.  As I mentioned earlier, that curry didn't look hugely authentic to me, but more like a ladies-who-lunch variety, so maybe ol' Pat did have her first-ever curry during her trip to India.  Or maybe she thought that some of her guests might never have had curry, so she was just being nice in instructing them.

Meh, food trends change so quickly.  I eat things my mom never will and vice versa.  So I'll give Pat credit for being enthusiastic about something new.

I'll keep rolling my eyes at her fugly dog caftans, though, although I really want one with Whitney's face on it now.  (hangs head)

Edited May 26, 2017 by DeepRed

[RedHawk]

50 minutes ago, DeepRed said:

I'll keep rolling my eyes at her fugly dog caftans, though, although I really want one with Whitney's face on it now.  (hangs head)

OMG. Don't encourage her! 

But really, those would be so. damn. hilarious. You know Andy would wear one on WWHL. I think he did say he wanted one of Pat's caftans with his dog on it.

[woodscommaelle]

57 minutes ago, DeepRed said:

 She had her first bagel & lox last year. 

LOVE! One of my all time favorite foods!!!