THT Spoilers

[secnarf]

3 hours ago, sam77 said:

Forgive me because I know this is a sidetrack, but I used to work in the diplomatic service.  I wonder what the status is of a child born in Gilead is? The people who got out are American refugees, but it seems Canada recognises Gilead as a nation so Holly is technically one of its citizens who has been abducted across the border.

I realise children of USA citizens can be naturalised and in the show’s world the USA would welcome all the citizens it could get, but as the ‘child of a commander’ even if not actually biologically true it could be a diplomatic nightmare.  I doubt the show would go down that route, but 

  Hide contents

In the epilogue for the book they talk about how Canada did not want to antagonise Gilead and would have round ups and returns of some refugees

 Holly could become a political football.  I’m not sure it would make for gripping television so this is more just a random musing.

Why can't a child born in Gilead be a 'Gileanean refugee' instead of an 'American refugee'?

If there is a political battle to get Holly returned to Gilead, I am going to lose my mind. WTF kind of storyline is that? It doesn't get us anywhere. And if the spoilers/promos are to be believed

Serena consents to Holly going, so she's not going to fight tooth and nail to have her returned. She might put on a show, but she ultimately consents to Holly leaving

[Umbelina]

This is the spoiler thread, so no need to tag. ;~)

I really doubt the custody thing will happen, not in any real way, they may touch on it. 

ETA

I thought it might, because I really think Serena would have pushed it.  BUT, since we know she willingly lets Holly go to protect her?  That's off the table as a possibly compelling story.

Unless...Fred does, and Serena is forced to play along...hope not.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Umbelina

[chocolatine]

7 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Why can't a child born in Gilead be a 'Gileanean refugee' instead of an 'American refugee'?

With a child that young being brought into the country by someone who isn't the child's parent or legal guardian, there's always the possibility that the chid is being kidnapped/trafficked. Emily will definitely be questioned, but if Luke and/or Moira corroborate what she says about June, I hope the Canadian authorities let Luke and/or Moira take Holly as June's next of kin. They already know how the handmaid system works from the refugees and the letters, and their official stance was to believe the letters and kick out Fred and Serena, so I doubt they'd send Holly back to Gilead.

[secnarf]

1 minute ago, chocolatine said:

With a child that young being brought into the country by someone who isn't the child's parent or legal guardian, there's always the possibility that the chid is being kidnapped/trafficked. Emily will definitely be questioned, but if Luke and/or Moira corroborate what she says about June, I hope the Canadian authorities let Luke and/or Moira take Holly as June's next of kin. They already know how the handmaid system works from the refugees and the letters, and their official stance was to believe the letters and kick out Fred and Serena, so I doubt they'd send Holly back to Gilead.

Why couldn't Emily just lie and say Holly is hers? Is Canada doing DNA checks or would they be predisposed to "believe the women"? I wonder how many babies are brought across the border in the show's universe?

[AnswersWanted]

I don't think the focus would be on a political battle, but I could see it adding drama in Canada if Luke and Moira are prevented from just taking Holly into their custody. 

 Personally I would love to see it get a bit tense so that Luke can react strongly and passionately as he fights to get his wife's daughter, at least it'd give him and Moira something to do.

And I could imagine a reunion scene if they succeed and Holly is given to them and they can point out something such as she has June's eyes or she looks like June did when she was a baby, that sort of emotional bonding that the show has just been lacking really, imo. 

 Plus I think it could give us more insight into how Canada, and little America, are running things when it comes to rescue and/or recovery from Gilead, especially if the one rescued or recovered is a minor child whose biological parents are unknown/presumed dead, still trapped in Gilead, or other. 

 Or the show could decide to keep Emily and Holly's rescue from Luke and Moira in the beginning. 

Perhaps June fails to give Emily Luke's name since they don't share the same last name. 

Also, Luke has no idea who Emily is and he also only knows that June is pregnant, not that she would have or should have given birth anytime soon, so there's that angle as well.

 I actually think they have some promising potential with how to go about things in season 3, I just hope there won't yet again be just a mess of squandered opportunities. 

[chocolatine]

3 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Why couldn't Emily just lie and say Holly is hers? Is Canada doing DNA checks or would they be predisposed to "believe the women"? I wonder how many babies are brought across the border in the show's universe?

They could check DNA, or give Emily a physical (which is routine for refugees/asylum seekers pretty much everywhere) and figure out pretty easily that she hasn't given birth recently. And most importantly, the point isn't for Emily to raise Holly as her own, it's to give her to Luke so that he can reunite Holly with June if/when June gets out of Gilead and have June be officially recognized as Holly's mother.

[VagueDisclaimer]

51 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I thought it might, because I really think Serena would have pushed it.  BUT, since we know she willingly lets Holly go to protect her?  That's

Unless...Fred does, and Serena is forced to play along...hope not.

 

Judging by Fred’s reaction in the promo, he doesn’t exactly sound on board with this. Not to mention it also casts another bad light on his home. I can see not just Fred but the whole gov’t fighting to get this baby back. Serena’s feelings or her agreeing to this has no bearing as Serena doesn’t matter when it comes to this. That baby is considered Fred’s property and they hunted June down, I really don’t think it’ll be shrugged off. And if Emily makes it to Canada, if Gillead has made their border aware that a baby was kidnapped, there will likely be a custody battle there. 

I think that all sounds like dreadful storytelling, but now that i’ve written that all out, I’ve now kinda convinced myself it’ll go that way. Fred doesn’t let anything or anyone go. And this would be an embarrassment to Gillead as well. I really don’t think it’ll only come down to how Fred feels. 

Edited July 6, 2018 by VagueDisclaimer

[Umbelina]

Yeah it could happen.

Why is everyone thinking Moira is suddenly maternal?  Didn't she say she didn't want kids, but did have one for the 1/4 million or whatever it was?

Good catch about Emily might not know how to find Luke, she doesn't even know June's last name anyway.  However, there is that board thing, and she would eventually see June's photo, and contact Luke. 

IF she actually gets to Canada that is.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Umbelina

[chocolatine]

23 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Why is everyone thinking Moira is suddenly maternal?  Didn't she say she didn't want kids, but did have one for the 1/4 million or whatever it was?

Moira and June love each other like sisters, so I don't doubt that Moira would do anything for June's children. We saw in the flashbacks that Moira adores Hannah and jokingly claimed Hannah "loves Auntie more than Daddy". If anything, I think she'll be more ready to take care of Holly than Luke, who will struggle with the fact that Holly was fathered by another man.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Moira and June love each other like sisters, so I don't doubt that Moira would do anything for June's children. We saw in the flashbacks that Moira adores Hannah and jokingly claimed Hannah "loves Auntie more than Daddy". If anything, I think she'll be more ready to take care of Holly than Luke, who will struggle with the fact that Holly was fathered by another man.

True, but then again, Moira did say that.  Some of us are wonderful with children and love them to pieces as long as we can hand them back to the parents at the end of the day, or weekend though.  That doesn't mean we want any of our own.  Or, to you know, have them full time possibly forever...

Edited July 6, 2018 by Umbelina

[Shaynaa]

I'm not a lawyer and don't know much about custody or immigration law.  Any case would have to be filed in Canada.  It is safe to say they would not recognize Gilead courts.  WOuldn't a Canadian court just have to ask Fred to come appear in person and bring the child's mother?  I know lawyers can sometimes appear in court without their clients but if Fred can't "care" enough to actually show up in person....  If he's claiming that June and the handmaids consented to this then he would have no problem showing up or bringing her.  I guess it depends on how much Canada wants to help.  They could claim the baby was born in Canada and come up with a birth certificate.  To disprove that, Fred would have to produce June.

The custody stuff is interesting but really wouldn't make sense.  Fred would be bringing so much international attention on Gilead by trying to get her back.  They guy is already going to be in deep doo doo with the other commanders.  But like someone else said, the writers like to pull things out of their asses so this could still happen.  I do feel pretty confident that Luke and/or Moira will end up with the baby.  Hopefully Luke steps up for once.

[Anela]

4 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

I am glad you said what I was thinking. I am glad she punched him back but I wish it wasn't prompted by his punch. For once, I wish she were proactive instead of reacting.

Take notes from Emily who seizes an opportunity and plots her revenge. Slowly poising the wife, stashing away a knife and stabbing a bitch. 

All of that said, if June continues to stay under their roof next season, I am out. 

The wife? I thought she stabbed Lydia.

[Empress1]

49 minutes ago, Anela said:

The wife? I thought she stabbed Lydia.

Emily poisoned a wife played by Marisa Tomei when they were both in the colonies.

[sam77]

I really don’t think it would be a good storyline to have a custody struggle, I was just musing.  In our current world countries do accept refugees from some regimes and not others.  It is also different for a refugee who has the agency to want to escape and successfully does so as opposed to a baby who has been abducted in Gilead’s eyes.

 

The precedent for returning refugees who were formerly American citizens by Canada to avoid upsetting Gilead is canon in the book, so a high ranking commander who claims to be the father could have some diplomatic clout.  It would be different if June were there I guess.

Don’t get me wrong I absolutely hope they don’t go there, the diplomatic visit to Canada was great, but as an extended custody story it would be boring.  I am interested though if they do pick up on that plot point about returning refugees in the epilogue (sorry about the tag I wasn’t sure if book spoilers were allowed in this section) and Canada is not the safe haven everyone hoped it would be.

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, sam77 said:

The precedent for returning refugees who were formerly American citizens by Canada to avoid upsetting Gilead is canon in the book, so a high ranking commander who claims to be the father could have some diplomatic clout.  It would be different if June were there I guess.

There is no such precedent on the show.  Fred was dreaming.  All he said was "it might be on the table."  IMO, they only invited him for information, and to use him, they certainly wouldn't give back the people that escaped Gilead.  Even Serena practically rolled her eyes when he boasted about that.

WAIT, it was in the book?  Where?

Edited July 6, 2018 by Umbelina

[AnswersWanted]

2 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Moira and June love each other like sisters, so I don't doubt that Moira would do anything for June's children. We saw in the flashbacks that Moira adores Hannah and jokingly claimed Hannah "loves Auntie more than Daddy". If anything, I think she'll be more ready to take care of Holly than Luke, who will struggle with the fact that Holly was fathered by another man.

 

Did June ever inform Emily that Nick is the true father of her baby? 

I want to say yes...but I cannot actually recall a scene about that. Did she at least know they had started a relationship in secret? My memory is crap, heh. 

They were just starting to get to know each other and trust each other when Emily was first taken away, and since she’s been back they have not had many opportunities to reconnect.

I would imagine most, if not all, of the handmaids often question the paternity of any child born now in Gilead. Could it really have been due to a fertile Commander, or did trusty Dr. Donnie strike again? Or a guardian, such as in the case of June and Nick. 

Nick told Luke when they met that Waterford was Holly’s father, but it might be interesting if Emily was aware that Nick was actually the daddy and told Luke that if, or when, they meet and Holly is introduced to him.

I imagine his emotions would be all over the place, so many things to feel and work through while also realizing his wife’s new, and innocent, baby girl is going to be dependent on him to do what is right. 

I actually think that the actor playing Luke is incredibly underappreciated by the show, I think he is capable of a lot.

So if they could potentially use an opportunity with Emily and Holly entering his life to give Luke a life, I’d be all for that.

[Sienna]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

There is no such precedent on the show.  Fred was dreaming.  All he said was "it might be on the table."  IMO, they only invited him for information, and to use him, they certainly wouldn't give back the people that escaped Gilead.  Even Serena practically rolled her eyes when he boasted about that.

WAIT, it was in the book?  Where?

The part about refugees being extradited is in the "Historical Notes" section at the end of the book. When speculating about what happened to "our narrator" there's the question of whether she made it to Canada, and from there, to England, which "would have been wise" because "the Canada of that time" didn't want to antagonize it's powerful neighbor, and was known to roundup and extradite refugees such "Offred" would have been.

It's also theorized that one of the reasons the tapes weren't made public knowledge during the narrator's lifetime was due to concerns about her family in Gilead, Luke (if he were still alive), or their daughter. There's mention of refugees being sent body parts purported to be from their loved ones, as an incentive to keep quiet. Something like that might add credence to June staying behind on the show, if she not only hoped to rescue Hannah, but feared that Hannah would be endangered specifically because June made it out.

[alexvillage]

15 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Will it continue into next year?  Who knows?

Nah, the writers will mess this up too.

 

15 hours ago, Umbelina said:

This is the first decent acting from a man this show has ever had, nuanced, as skillful as the women on screen.  He was masterful.  The writing was better for him too, but it's what he was able to do with it, making a feast out of snacks.

I agree that the writing was better as far as the writing for men in the show goes. Disagree the actor was masterful. Good scene yes, masterful, no.

 

12 hours ago, rideashire said:

I think if Luke won't do it, then Moira will, even if that's alone. I'm trying to think of how I'd react if this was a real life decision to be made and there's not a chance in hell I'd let my best friend's baby go elsewhere, knowing she would trust me to take care of her, while she's still stuck in Gilead. Luke or no Luke. And then there's Emily, who probably would pitch in too.

That would be reasonable to think and consistent with the Moira character but we have The Writers of This Show, so it is also possible that we will never know, and the baby will never be mentioned again. 

[alexvillage]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Why is everyone thinking Moira is suddenly maternal?  Didn't she say she didn't want kids, but did have one for the 1/4 million or whatever it was?

I wouldn't say she all of a sudden feel maternal but I think she is extremely loyal to June and would absolutely embrace Holly if she was the closest connection with her mother. 

[Trillian]

18 hours ago, sam77 said:

Forgive me because I know this is a sidetrack, but I used to work in the diplomatic service.  I wonder what the status is of a child born in Gilead is? The people who got out are American refugees, but it seems Canada recognises Gilead as a nation so Holly is technically one of its citizens who has been abducted across the border.

I realise children of USA citizens can be naturalised and in the show’s world the USA would welcome all the citizens it could get, but as the ‘child of a commander’ even if not actually biologically true it could be a diplomatic nightmare.  I doubt the show would go down that route, but 

  Reveal hidden contents

In the epilogue for the book they talk about how Canada did not want to antagonise Gilead and would have round ups and returns of some refugees

 Holly could become a political football.  I’m not sure it would make for gripping television so this is more just a random musing.

I totally agree that, if the show followed real world norms, Holly’s status in Canada would be a political mess and, as you say, a diplomatic nightmare.  There’s all sorts of intricacies we don’t know about whether Canada recognizes Gileadian law (if it does, then Holly is Nichole Waterford and legally their child, and June and Luke are not legally married).  There are all sorts of niceties involved in whether a foreign marriage is recognized, as many American gay couples discovered when they came to Canada to marry (we legalized it long before the U.S.) and then couldn’t get divorced in their home state because the marriage wasn’t legal yet there  

I’m too lazy to do the legal research for a potential tangential plot point, but I wouldn’t be too sure that the presumption of paternity applies when a couple has been separated (albeit involuntarily) for, what, over 3 years.  A legal presumption is just a starting point and not the end point (eg, the presumption of innocence). Even if it did apply as a starting point here, it would be so easily rebuttable in this case where Luke couldn’t  possibly be the biological father.  

I also agree that a custody battle would be boring and would also drive us lawyers nuts.

What happened to Judge Judy when Gilead took over?  That’s what I’d like to see. 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Trillian
Grammar, although I blame autocorrect

[nodorothyparker]

When I googled paternity law for our earlier discussion, much of it did mention a 300-day or year limit on automatic presumption.  So Luke is well outside that window, for whatever that's worth.

Considering that Commander Fred's big media promotion was based on him finally becoming a family man and that if the spoilers are true then the baby has gone bye bye almost immediately after his wife made a big public spectacle of herself requiring a public punishment, he may have his hands full not ending up on the wall or just fending off closer inquiries into WTH has been going on in the Waterford house.  His handmaid has gone missing a couple of times now with increasingly far-fetched stories as to how exactly that happened, two members of the household were just unrepentantly executed for adultery that occurred under his nose, and Lydia may suddenly remember she was tipped off that the house and Fred weren't safe,  And that's before you get to his work fuckups like the Red Center bombing and the disastrous Canada trade mission.  The last thing he may want is getting into an international battle over a baby he already knows isn't his anyway. 

Okay, we know the show probably won't remember any of this because it would mean finally picking up all of random threads it's dropped all season.

[Stiggs]

3 hours ago, alexvillage said:

I wouldn't say she all of a sudden feel maternal but I think she is extremely loyal to June and would absolutely embrace Holly if she was the closest connection with her mother. 

Yeah, she's not all of a sudden going to fulfill her mother goals or change who she is or anything — but it's her best friend's kid. I don't have kids and have never wanted them and just listening to my mom friends talk about their schedules exhausts me. But if something happened to my BFF and her kid needed taking care of, there's no question I'd do whatever I had to do for him. I don't think things are so cut and dry, and Moira would do what she has to. 

I don't know if the show will go down the Elian Gonzalez route or what, but I have a feeling it will either be a major storyline or not one at all. It's hard to tell where they'll go in season 3. I hate waiting! Ugh. I want to know NOW, lol. 

[alexvillage]

39 minutes ago, Stiggs said:

I don't have kids and have never wanted them and just listening to my mom friends talk about their schedules exhausts me. But if something happened to my BFF and her kid needed taking care of, there's no question I'd do whatever I had to do for him.

I am the same, only that my best friend's kids are grown but my younger brother has young kids and I would definitely jump in.

 

41 minutes ago, Stiggs said:

I don't know if the show will go down the Elian Gonzalez route or what, but I have a feeling it will either be a major storyline or not one at all.

Agree, although my bet is on no storyline because *Writers*.

[Anela]

9 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Emily poisoned a wife played by Marisa Tomei when they were both in the colonies.

Oh, thanks. I remember that - I thought they were talking about the spoiler for next week. :)

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, Sienna said:

The part about refugees being extradited is in the "Historical Notes" section at the end of the book. When speculating about what happened to "our narrator" there's the question of whether she made it to Canada, and from there, to England, which "would have been wise" because "the Canada of that time" didn't want to antagonize it's powerful neighbor, and was known to roundup and extradite refugees such "Offred" would have been.

It's also theorized that one of the reasons the tapes weren't made public knowledge during the narrator's lifetime was due to concerns about her family in Gilead, Luke (if he were still alive), or their daughter. There's mention of refugees being sent body parts purported to be from their loved ones, as an incentive to keep quiet. Something like that might add credence to June staying behind on the show, if she not only hoped to rescue Hannah, but feared that Hannah would be endangered specifically because June made it out.

I remember the beginning of that, but somehow I honestly forgot the rest of that statement.  Wow.

So, at any moment, Canada could just decide to send Moira, or Luke, or anyone up there back.  That sounds like something that would happen to June, she makes it there, maybe with Hannah, and Canada hands them both back to Gilead.

OMG.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Umbelina

[Stiggs]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I remember the beginning of that, but somehow I honestly forgot the rest of that statement.  Wow.

So, at any moment, Canada could just decide to send Moira, or Luke, or anyone up there back.  That sounds like something that would happen to June, she makes it there, maybe with Hannah, and Canada hands them both back to Gilead.

OMG.

I recently re-read the historical notes, and I thought what was described matched reality more than having a, "Come on in! Forget that it makes our cray super close neighbor super mad! No biggie!" attitude from Canada. This is not to knock on Canada AT ALL — or my boyfriend Trudeau — but they have their own interests like ALL countries. As much love as they may have had for the US, at this point, I can understand if they just want their southern neighbors to be peaceful and stop being horrible so they can all get along and trade and the world will be more stable. They don't necessarily want to rescue or restore the US (which is what I would want to happen, being an American — I'd want my Florida Keys back, man), and they have no obligation to do so. 

So there are different priorities, and it completely makes sense for Canada to at least try to get along with Gilead as best as they can, and we know Gilead is already talking about wanting their people back. I wonder if the everyday reality of the Americans in Canada will be part of season 3 — like is there resentment for all of these Americans hanging out and drinking coffee? (We're not everyone's cup of tea. I have heard a rumor we are rude, lol.) Are they "taking jobs" from anyone? How much is this costing Canadians? Does what remains of the US government have a tab that they pay? Are they getting free healthcare? They can't just have Little Americas everywhere forever. I need to know how all of this is formally structured! (I feel like we need a separate web series called Little America to fill in all of the blanks.) 

And dear god, if June finally makes it to Canada only to be sent back to Gilead I might have to go buy a pack of cigarettes and smoke them all at once. And they CAN'T send Moira back. I want them to go way off book for this, lol. Nobody gets sent back!

[Anela]

A little web series would actually be a good idea. Showing what's going on in Canada.

They've said this is Offred's story, so we're shown her perspective, but we're also shown Emily's, and we've seen Fred's and Serena's (more of Serena, but Fred was in Canada, too - June wasn't there). I guess they get around that, with Nick telling her what happened.

[mamadrama]

Just now, Anela said:

A little web series would actually be a good idea. Showing what's going on in Canada.

They've said this is Offred's story, so we're shown her perspective, but we're also shown Emily's, and we've seen Fred's and Serena's (more of Serena, but Fred was in Canada, too - June wasn't there). I guess they get around that, with Nick telling her what happened.

This is one of those things that I think they use as an excuse whenever it suits them. Ask for more information on Gilead's formation and the Sons of Jacob and the showrunner proclaims, "This is the Handmaid's Tale, not Gilead's tale!" And yet, as you said, we've seen other characters' perspectives along the way, including Luke's escape to Canada and what goes on in the Colonies-as well as stuff that went on with Nick and the Commanders in the beginning. They need to admit that it is NOT *just* the Handmaid's tale anymore. I am perfectly fine with expanding the storytelling. Emily and Janine and Rita fascinate me more than June at this point. 

[LordOfLotion]

My question about the refugee situation would be: Is Alaska slap full at this point? Why aren't some of them going there?

[Stephanie23]

Yes, I would love Gilead story.

 

To see all the politics  and government, what's happening in Hawaii and Alaska, what kind of relations does Europe have towards Gilead? Is it different in Eastern and West Europe...?

Edited July 6, 2018 by Stephanie23

[sam77]

Quote

My question about the refugee situation would be: Is Alaska slap full at this point? Why aren't some of them going there?

My guess is many have done, but judging by the photos of the missing on the walls and at the protest against the Waterford visit many want to stay close just in case they get news of their loved ones from those who escape.  If my family were trapped in Gilead I’d want to stay in Little America as horrible as that limbo would be.

[Trillian]

11 hours ago, Sienna said:

The part about refugees being extradited is in the "Historical Notes" section at the end of the book. When speculating about what happened to "our narrator" there's the question of whether she made it to Canada, and from there, to England, which "would have been wise" because "the Canada of that time" didn't want to antagonize it's powerful neighbor, and was known to roundup and extradite refugees such "Offred" would have been.

It's also theorized that one of the reasons the tapes weren't made public knowledge during the narrator's lifetime was due to concerns about her family in Gilead, Luke (if he were still alive), or their daughter. There's mention of refugees being sent body parts purported to be from their loved ones, as an incentive to keep quiet. Something like that might add credence to June staying behind on the show, if she not only hoped to rescue Hannah, but feared that Hannah would be endangered specifically because June made it out.

I’m not sure the tv show actually is following the historical notes at this point, especially with respect to Canada. Canada doesn’t come across, in what we’ve seen, as particularly worried about “antagonizing its powerful neighbour” (had to add the “u” in neighbour, there, eh) and Gilead isn’t coming across as particularly powerful.  Mileage on this board varies about whether the Canada trip was a sloppy writing mess (my own view) or whether Canada was deliberately insulting Gilead, but it seems to me that going all #metoo and throwing the Waterfords out when the letters were published was not the act of a country nervous about retaliation (and if Gilead was being purposely insulted, all the more so).  We’ve seen nary a hint of any ambiguity in the treatment of the refugees, who seem to have been welcomed with open arms.

I read a post on another board (I confess to, and sincerely repent of, cheating with another board) that said so well what I tried clumsily to express in an earlier post. In essence, it was that Atwood was writing with a political agenda and the book served that purpose. Once the tv writers moved beyond that story and that purpose, they got into things that hadn’t been properly thought out because they weren’t necessary to the original story - things like politics and diplomacy and law and technology and breastfeeding and who is made a handmaid and why and what happens to post-menopausal handmaids or widowed wives and where the next generation of handmaids comes from and what is the status of the children stolen from the first generation of handmaids and how is mode of execution determined and how do they keep that pool so clean despite the dead bodies. The things that drive us all crazy, in other words. Atwood did not build a world because she didn’t have to in order to tell her story, but the tv writers now have to and have failed to do so because they seem not to have a plan.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Trillian
Premature posting

[LordOfLotion]

4 minutes ago, sam77 said:

My guess is many have done, but judging by the photos of the missing on the walls and at the protest against the Waterford visit many want to stay close just in case they get news of their loved ones from those who escape.  If my family were trapped in Gilead I’d want to stay in Little America as horrible as that limbo would be.

That's what I'd guess too. But if it ever got out that Canada was even thinking about sending refugees back, or even after the first round got shipped back, I would think that there would be a lot of them making a run for the Alaska border.

This being before anything like that I was wondering how many without families left were going all the way to Alaska and if they were letting them in. I wonder if you just walk up to a checkpoint and say "Civis Romanus Sum" or if there's a secret handshake. I imagine Canadians would get pretty tired of seeing Americans walking on their roads in handmaid dresses trying to hitch rides to Anchorage.

Of course that's a whole show we'll never get to see.

[madpsych78]

6 hours ago, mamadrama said:

This is one of those things that I think they use as an excuse whenever it suits them. Ask for more information on Gilead's formation and the Sons of Jacob and the showrunner proclaims, "This is the Handmaid's Tale, not Gilead's tale!" And yet, as you said, we've seen other characters' perspectives along the way, including Luke's escape to Canada and what goes on in the Colonies-as well as stuff that went on with Nick and the Commanders in the beginning. They need to admit that it is NOT *just* the Handmaid's tale anymore. I am perfectly fine with expanding the storytelling. Emily and Janine and Rita fascinate me more than June at this point. 

I definitely don't mind the expansion as well. The thing that I want the producers to remember is that while this show may not be called Gilead's Tale, it is also not called June's or Offred's Tale either. The Handmaid's Tale can feature Emily and Janine and still remain true to the title. I'm especially interested in Emily's assignment as it seems very different from June's. 

But, since Elisabeth Moss is involved in many aspects of the show beyond playing June, I doubt that anything would happen that would take away substantially from June's story.

Edited July 7, 2018 by madpsych78

[AllyB]

Looking at the Israeli trailer, when Serena comes after June demanding 'her baby' back. She has her hands out and they don't appear disfigured. The trailer I watched was very blurry, so it's possible there was a bandage on one hand where her little finger had been. And she certainly seemed more distressed than entitled, so it's possible she'd just lost a finger but I can't see evidence of it in the trailer I watched. Has anyone seen a clearer trailer that makes it obvious one way or the other? I'm inclined to believe that she does have a finger chopped off as it was signposted heavily in the scene with Emily and Lawrence talking about fingers being chopped off for reading. So Serena advocating for women to be allowed to read scripture could well lead to that punishment, especially if something she says during her argument reveals that she has recently been reading.

[Brn2bwild]

5 hours ago, AllyB said:

Looking at the Israeli trailer, when Serena comes after June demanding 'her baby' back. She has her hands out and they don't appear disfigured. The trailer I watched was very blurry, so it's possible there was a bandage on one hand where her little finger had been. And she certainly seemed more distressed than entitled, so it's possible she'd just lost a finger but I can't see evidence of it in the trailer I watched. Has anyone seen a clearer trailer that makes it obvious one way or the other? I'm inclined to believe that she does have a finger chopped off as it was signposted heavily in the scene with Emily and Lawrence talking about fingers being chopped off for reading. So Serena advocating for women to be allowed to read scripture could well lead to that punishment, especially if something she says during her argument reveals that she has recently been reading.

Is the trailer posted anywhere?

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Brn2bwild said:

Is the trailer posted anywhere?

A few posts up.

[Brn2bwild]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

A few posts up.

It looks like the one posted isn't working/was taken offline.  Anyone else know where else it's linked?

[LordOfLotion]

Try that

[Umbelina]

22 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

It looks like the one posted isn't working/was taken offline.  Anyone else know where else it's linked?

Someone also put in a direct link a few posts after that.  Still, for some reason people in some areas/countries can't see it.

[lmdreamer]

On 7/4/2018 at 3:15 PM, lmdreamer said:

I just hope Aunt Lydia doesn't die before we get her back story. I've been wanting one since the first time she called Janine by name.

In fact it would be nice to see The Aunts and the Marthas explored more.  I think those two Gilead classes are one we haven't seen as much as the others.

[jhjhjh]

Yeah I'm joining the chorus of those who are hoping that the June flashbacks are minimal next season. We have a really good idea of her life before Gilead by now. 

While we know almost nothing about others'.

[AllyB]

I don't mind June's flashbacks if they give us insight into the lead up to Gilead. I'm happy to see what happened between the protest she and Moira were at that they barely escaped from. To the point (years on?) that they tried to escape. I'd like to see how Luke convinced her to stay when Moira tried to escape. Luke's reaction when the law was changed and their marriage declared retroactively a crime. Etc. I don't really care about seeing how Luke's wife reacted to their relationship, Hannah's first day at nursery, Holly Sr's views on natural childbirth, etc. Especially as those flashbacks, like Moira's lamaze class, do not seem to be grounded in the reality of the fertility crises we've been told about and shown in other flashbacks. They show us relationships in the past that add little to nothing to the story and they aren't always consistent with the supposed plot.

[DuckyinKy]

3 hours ago, lmdreamer said:

On 7/4/2018 at 4:15 PM, lmdreamer said:

I just hope Aunt Lydia doesn't die before we get her back story. I've been wanting one since the first time she called Janine by name.

 

Aunt Lydia lives but she is wounded. 

[ClaireS]

On 7/4/2018 at 9:05 PM, DiabLOL said:

I love the new Commander. He has a world class level art collection! A Basquiat in his staircase! I LOVED watching Aunt Lydia "clutch her pearls" as she looked around. I love the way he says stuff. He's so over it and genuinely weird. Why couldn't they have introduced him much much earlier I could watch a show of just him and his Sassing Martha.

I found his "attic dweller" wife refreshing because for once a wife is appropriately insane. The closest we've seen is the nice lady in the house Emily was in before.

[ClaireS]

The Marthas also working with Nick have a network and get June and baby close to the border where commander Lawrence takes Emily who has just stabbed and pushed Lydia down a flight of stairs.  She’s still alIve.  June gives baby to Emily to take to Canada and stays I believe to join the resistance not return to Waterford’s. She can’t.  Serena has finger cut off for asking the council to allow women to read while reading from Eden’s hidden bible.  She allows June to take baby to save her from Gilead.  

18 hours ago, lmdreamer said:

In fact it would be nice to see The Aunts and the Marthas explored more.  I think those two Gilead classes are one we haven't seen as much as the others.

Definitely!!!

[GraceK]

12 minutes ago, ClaireS said:

June gives baby to Emily to take to Canada and stays I believe to join the resistance not return to Waterford’s. She can’t.

That’s awesome!!!!! 

[VagueDisclaimer]

32 minutes ago, ClaireS said:

The Marthas also working with Nick have a network and get June and baby close to the border where commander Lawrence takes Emily who has just stabbed and pushed Lydia down a flight of stairs.  She’s still alIve.  June gives baby to Emily to take to Canada and stays I believe to join the resistance not return to Waterford’s. She can’t.  Serena has finger cut off for asking the council to allow women to read while reading from Eden’s hidden bible.  She allows June to take baby to save her from Gilead.  

Okay, this sounds much better than how the spoilers first read. Thank you!

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Quote

 She allows June to take baby to save her from Gilead. 

I can't say I am looking forward to the coronation for this generous act by Serena Joy.

[GraceK]

Does Nick survive?