S03.E23: Finish Line

[ottoDbusdriver]

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

And so this season ends.  Yay?

Not surprised that, as predicted, it was H.R. that was actually in Savitar's clutches, after switching out with Iris, and was the one who dies. I guess that is a fitting end for his character, but it's obvious that there will be some kind of Harrison Wells next season as well, wherever it's good old Earth 2 Dick Harry again or they bring someone new.  The show can't get rid of Tom Cavanagh that easily!

In the end, Savitar ended up being a dud despite by Grant Gustin's best efforts.  I still can't figure out how this all came to be due to the wonky timelines and time-traveling, and Savitar just came off like a whiny, emo child, instead of a big threat.  And, of course, Barry was going to give him a chance to coexist, which almost blew up in their faces.  And it is certainly a good thing that Iris showed up to put a bullet in Savitar, since Barry was dumb enough to turn his back to him.

Surprised none of the side guest characters got taken out like Tracy, Gypsy, or especially Julian.  Really thought Tom Felton was going to be a one and done season character.  Granted, depending on how much of a jump the show has next season, they could easily ship him off.  But I hope not.  In fact, I hope all three stick around in some form.

Caitlin finally is able to control her Killer Frost-ish tendencies and save Cisco, but won't take the cure either and is off to "find herself." I'm sure her journey will end just in time for the season four premiere!

Yay, Jay's back!

So, the big cliffhanger ending is that it is Barry's turn to go into the Speed Force, so the planet doesn't explode.  A fitting punishment since he did create Flashpoint, but obviously he'll get out.  But knowing this show, by the time he does, Iris will probably "love again" with someone new, and there will be another damn love triangle.

Overall, a pretty weak season.  Really hope they get it together next season.  Certainly hope it's true that there won't be another freaking speedster big baddie.  Hell, at this point, I don't care how preposterous it would be, I would rather The Trickster be a seasonal villain then another damn speedster (hey, Mark Hamill can't do Star Wars all the time!)  But they certainly need a boost after the majority of this season. 

I don't get the face-switching technology -- apparently it is also body switching tech even though we have only seen it switch faces, because HR is WAAAY taller than Iris.  So does that mean that when Savitar stabbed Iris in what looks like the right lung he would have stabbed HR in the gut, and why didn't Barry run HR to the fucking hospital to give him a fighting chance ?  How stupid was that ?

And they never did explain how Savitar traveled so far back in time to become the India god of Speed -- or who named him Savitar -- and they didn't explain how he was trapped by the Philospher's Stone.  So many unanswered questions that are all now moot.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

But knowing this show, by the time he does, Iris will probably "love again" with someone new, and there will be another damn love triangle.

*bangs head on wall, realizing how right you are.  TheCW's "treasure trove" trope*

And that probably won't be the only 'triangle', either.   By the time "Caitlin" comes back to TeamFlash, Julian will be with someone else... or she'll be with someone else, but Julian still loves her.  Can already feel the migraine coming on......

[ottoDbusdriver]

The interns really need to start paying attention to the little details in their assignments -- during that scene in the time vault when they were looking at the newspaper headline, there is that article titled "Wayne Tech/Queen Inc Merger Complete" but the story below that article title is talking about illness caused by DNA damage caused by radiation.  FFS !

And the text of the main headline goes as follows: "After an extreme street battle with the Reverse-Flash, our city's very own Scarlet Speedster disappeared in an explosion of light.  The cause of the fight is unknown.  According to witnesses, The Flash, with help from Starling City's Green Arrow, The Atom and Hawkgirl, began fighting the Reverse-Flash around midnight last night."

For starters, Star City hasn't been Starling City for a while (at least 7-8 years) from 2024 perspective.  And isn't Hawkgirl long gone.

And isn't Joe West supposed to be police chief by now ?  At least according to one of the Vibe sessions early in the season, that also mentioned Grodd attacking Central City.  Because in the 2024 article Joe West is still CCPD chief.

If the time vault still exists from S1 (since it should have disappeared when Eddie Thawne killed himself), of course Savitar's lack of existence has no repercussions through the timeline.  </sarcasm>

Edited May 25, 2017 by ottoDbusdriver

[Mellowyellow]

GO IRIS!!!!! WOOOOOT!!!!! LOVED that she shot him. I was so happy she got to speak to him but it seemed like he creeped her out so it made sense that she shot him in the end. 

The Caitlin stuff makes no sense! She went crazy and got glowy eyes and now she's totes chilled and going to find herself? WTF show!

I was upset that Cisco didn't get to say goodbye to HR.

Other than that it was a pretty dull finale except for the final fight. 

[Quark]

I loved the finale, although it could just be because I'm so glad that Iris is ok.

[Grace19]

6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Also everything to do with Caitlin's Killer Frost arc makes no sense.  If the powers make her go evil and it's not her fault, then cure her.  You don't ask permission.  If her powers don't actually MAKE her go evil, then she chose to go evil.  Put her in jail.  And what changed between her being really bummed over not being allowed to kill CIsco and totally happy to make sure Iris is on schedule to die and Caitlin suddenly turning on Savitar and having to save Cisco?  Nothing except that she could be cured.  But before she didn't WANT to be cured.  And nothing else had changed.  Savitar hadn't even acted like he was going to betray her like Cisco claimed.  But now she's no longer Killer Frost.  So that means that she didn't have to be evil.  Which means that she chose to be evil?  Cause she's now choosing not to be.  But is wasn't supposed to be a choice!!  THIS MAKES NO SENSE!!

 

I gave up on that story arc making any sense a long time ago. I wish they never did killer frost. They actually made it seem like she chose to be evil.

56 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Because the writers are still pretending this is a GENIUS closed time loop while giving themselves permission to just do whatever the fuck they want.

Wait, did I already say that?

Lol, I actually love that you kept saying it, and you are right.

I think these writer have good concepts (flashpoint, savitar), but don't know how to execute them. For what its worth, I enjoyed most part of the season.

[Grace19]

54 minutes ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

*bangs head on wall, realizing how right you are.  TheCW's "treasure trove" trope*

And that probably won't be the only 'triangle', either.   By the time "Caitlin" comes back to TeamFlash, Julian will be with someone else... or she'll be with someone else, but Julian still loves her.  Can already feel the migraine coming on......

Please don't speak that into existence. I don't really think they will go there. External drama (villains, speedforce, time) is the only thing that can work for a couple like westallen, love triangle can't work for them, they are more than love-interests, they are family.

[SimoneS]

I have always found the time travel stories on this show a convoluted mess so I have never taken the time to deconstruct them. I was hoping that the Savitar debacle would teach Barry a lesson and end his time travel adventures, but apparently not.

[cambridgeguy]

8 hours ago, quarks said:

2. Where did Jay Garrick get a suit for the funeral?

He went to the store and bought one in the time it took to set up the funeral?  Of course the bigger question is why no one popped over to Earth 3 and told Jesse - she was closer to him than Jay, at least. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

8 minutes ago, Grace19 said:

Please don't speak that into existence. I don't really think they will go there. External drama (villains, speedforce, time) is the only thing that can work for a couple like westallen, love triangle can't work for them, they are more than love-interests, they are family.

If only this were on any other network than its on, I'd grant you that with no rebuttal.  But being on CW, I can't help but expect the opposite.  If they prove me wrong, great, however I also won't be holding my breath.

[SimoneS]

Jay Garrick looked handsome in the suit.

[Princess Lucky]

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Why does Wally still have his power if Savitar ceased to have existed?  He lost them when Barry merely forgot what to do next, but he keeps them when Savitar completely fades away?   That makes no sense.

They literally showed Wally losing his powers because Barry (and Savitar) got amnesia, like two weeks ago. But Savitar is erased and Wally is the new Flash? And no one even mentions a bullshit explanation why that happened?

Speaking of bullshit, why on earth would Savitar disappear in "a few hours" and not immediately? What did they mean by "until the paradox reaches him"? At first I thought they meant "until a particular event happens, which would erase him from existence" (leven though that event did happen, when he failed to kill Iris), but the way they said "oh, idk, a couple of hours" made it seem like they were pulling that timeframe out of their asses. I didn't understand that at all.

1 hour ago, AudienceofOne said:

No one. Barry created the prison for Savitar. Savitar never existed.

But for some reason all of these events still happened and the prison still exists even though nobody ever built it.

Because the writers are still pretending this is a GENIUS closed time loop while giving themselves permission to just do whatever the fuck they want.

Wait, did I already say that?

RIGHT?

None of this season makes sense. I was hoping Barry would sacrifice himself to stop Savitar (which would be a rightful punishment, since he created/became Savitar), not for some made-up reason about the Speed Force.  That had zero emotional impact. And the script didn't help. When Iris said "Wally and Jay said they were in hell," the writers were trying to amp up the emotion and prop up Barry's sacrifice, but all that did was remind the viewers that two other speedsters have successfully escaped the Speed Force, so Barry will only be in there for like ten minutes, tops. That line weakened the moment.

I will not miss HR. I felt nothing when he died. He annoyed me to no end, he was one of the most superfluous and irritating parts of this season, and the way the writers tried to tack on his romance with Tracy (lasting all of 4 minutes) in the finale was offensively exploitative. Good riddance. I'd be happy Harry seems to be staying, but I'm sure that'll be temporary, and we'll get a different Wells. Whatever. Can't be worse than HR (famous last words).

That said, it was a disservice to HR to connect his death with Iris's survival. The audience (and the characters) had a split second to grieve, because we/they were all delighted Iris was alive. So he died and only Tracy gave a damn. Cisco barely reacted to his death. I don't like the guy, but that's low. And bad writing.

This season was a dud and had no internal logic. There were no rules, and everything was a confusing mess. Worst of all, I stopped caring about the characters. Julian (by the way, HE LIVES!) and the Cisco/Caitlin relationship were the only (surprising) bright spots, and Candice Patton's acting was the true saving grace of Season 4. Everything else? Pass.

[benteen]

Quote

Also everything to do with Caitlin's Killer Frost arc makes no sense.  If the powers make her go evil and it's not her fault, then cure her.  You don't ask permission.  If her powers don't actually MAKE her go evil, then she chose to go evil.  Put her in jail.

THIS!

I had to laugh at Tracy saying Savitar ruined her life.  She knew HR for all of 10 minutes.  Now her life is ruined?  I guess it makes sense as the female characters primary role on The Flash seems to be serving as the love interests for men.

Edited May 24, 2017 by benteen

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I have always found the time travel stories on this show a convoluted mess so I have never taken the time to deconstruct them. I was hoping that the Savitar debacle would teach Barry a lesson and end his time travel adventures, but apparently not.

How did you reach this conclusion? How is Barry surrendering/turning himself into the Speed Force equal Barry not ending his time traveling? This whole season was fucked up and reminded me that the writers (and I say that loosely) are just like the ones over on General Hospital-in that they don't watch the show nor do they read what the previous writer wrote in previous episodes!??either that or they don't really give a fuck; realized they wrote themselves in a corner and said "Fuck it! Reason? "FLASHPOINT!""??????

12 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

 

When Iris said "Wally and Jay said they were in hell," the writers were trying to amp up the emotion and prop up Barry's sacrifice, but all that did was remind the viewers that two other speedsters have successfully escaped the Speed Force, so Barry will only be in there for like ten minutes, tops. That line weakened the moment.

 

I'm not sure what Jay went through because we didn't get to see it, but Wally was in Hell. He was in a catatonic state, reliving seeing Iris being murdered in an unending loop and him not being able to save her. Barry took him back and Jay took Wally's place.

I'm just beyond tired and pissed that these hacks have turned the Speed Force into some kind of vindictive AI/God, who gets pissed when Barry doesn't do what IT wants him to. When it was a mixture of science and climate that made Barry the Flash.???

Barry going into the Speed Force WAS him sacrificing himself. Short of killing him off permanently, and this ending the show, this is the closest he'll come to dying-because NOW, the Speedforce is a fucking prison and Barry won't be living it up in there as if he's at Club Med.

Edited May 25, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[Grace19]

I really enjoyed this finale better than the past ones, maybe it's because the ladies got to save the day in this one or because iris/Candice got a lot to do, oh or maybe because starlabs is gone for now.

I have said it before, Barry needed to prove he is a hero after messing with everyone's lives, so I'm glad he sacrificed himself, he needed to pay for what he did. Of course he will be back, I love Wally, but I need my Barry back.

I can't believe they finally let iris be a badass, I'm glad she got to save Barry. Loved that Gypsie is back. Barry taking down savitar was cool and badass.

I was among the few that loved HR, I didn't want him gone, but I'll take Iris over him. Glad to have Harry back, I've missed him.

They just won't let westallen live, my babies. I guess we will have to wait for the wedding.

Topnotch acting across the episode, especially Grant, Candice, Jesse and Tom.

[sarthaz]

This could have sucked a lot worse.  

I like that Iris got the kill, even if it makes no sense why she was in that field in the first place.

I like that Barritar figured out he could never be saved, because he'd always remember loving Iris, but he'd never be able to have her.  

I like that they're at least presenting the possibility of some middle ground between Caitlin and Killer Frost.  Caitlin's a boring character.  I don't love the idea of everyone having super powers, but I definitely don't want Caitlin back to normal and settling down with Julian.  I'd probably be OK if she left the show entirely now that I think about it.  They have a new female scientist anyway.

I don't really have a problem with the SpeedForce finale, but Barry's calm acceptance of it was cold to Joe and Iris.  And I don't buy for a second that Jay wouldn't fight him on it.  We needed 30 seconds of Jay offering to take his place and Barry explaining why it had to be him.  And don't get me started on Wally, who is clearly not a hero, or else he too would have tried to stop Barry also, at least for a moment.

I like how they don't even try to make things sound science-y anymore.  Cisco just Star Trek's every problem now.  "I reversed the polarity and instead of turning the impossible machine into an impossible machine like you wanted, I made a new impossible machine to plot the plot." (Later) "Hey, Wally, everything's broken.  Reverse the polarity, dude.  That fixes everything."  Season 4 is totally going to open with Cisco getting Barry out of the SpeedForce by double-reversing the reverse-polarity on the polarity reverser.

I wish they'd mourned H.R. a little more sincerely.  Trading dead people isn't really a win, and just because Iris is smoking hot doesn't mean it's really cause for celebration.  I guess they had to hit that wedding note before Barry left to tug on our feels, but a more sincere reaction would have been for Barry and Iris to suffer some survivor's guilt and lament that she's alive because someone else is dead.  That's really hard to grapple with ... if you're a human.

[cambridgeguy]

15 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I don't really have a problem with the SpeedForce finale, but Barry's calm acceptance of it was cold to Joe and Iris.  And I don't buy for a second that Jay wouldn't fight him on it.  We needed 30 seconds of Jay offering to take his place and Barry explaining why it had to be him.  And don't get me started on Wally, who is clearly not a hero, or else he too would have tried to stop Barry also, at least for a moment.

They definitely made some cuts/edits to Barry's farewell.  If you look at the filming video posted in the spoiler thread there are several interactions which don't appear in the episode itself (no hug with Julian, no handshake with Jay).  It's implied the Speed Force wanted Barry and just Barry (otherwise why take on his mom's appearance) but as it's shown on TV it looks like Barry volunteered himself and Jay/Wally were OK with it.

Edited May 24, 2017 by cambridgeguy

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

They definitely made some cuts/edits to Barry's farewell.  If you look at the filming video posted in the spoiler thread there are several interactions which don't appear in the episode itself (no hug with Julian, no handshake with Jay).  It's implied the Speed Force wanted Barry and just Barry (otherwise why take on his mom's appearance) but as it's shown on TV it looks like Barry volunteered himself and Jay/Wally were OK with it.

????????

[CletusMusashi]

4 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

By the time "Caitlin" comes back to TeamFlash, Julian will be with someone else... or she'll be with someone else, but Julian still loves her.  Can already feel the migraine coming on......

Caitlin + King Shark 4eva!

[JohnnyGilda]

10 hours ago, futurechemist said:

Bonus points for "reverse the polarity of the neutron flow".

I don't usually find this show quotable, but that was hilarious.

WTH was this season? At least Iris got to be the one to end Barritar.

[Cthulhudrew]

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Well, next year we start mostly fresh.  Here's hoping for a much better season.  I'll miss you HR.  

Maybe the Speed Force brought Barry back to undo "Flashpoint" and next year we'll pick up with the show moments after season 2's ending. With the original group of characters we got to know in the first two seasons, and not the "basically the same, but slightly different, but don't worry about it" crew from this season.

5 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

The speed force really has a hard on for Barry doesn't it? I don't understand the whole reasoning behind it to be honest.

At this point, I'm surprised they didn't just reveal that the Nora Allen wasn't just a physical manifestation of the Speed Force all along, and she's just finding it hard to let him go.

[Princess Lucky]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'm not sure what Jay went through because we didn't get to see it, but Wally was in Hell. He was in a catatonic state, reliving seeing Iris being murdered in an unending loop and him not being able to save her. Barry took him back and Jay took Wally's place.

I'm just beyond tired and pissed that these hacks have turned the Speed Force into some kind of vindictive AI/God, who gets pissed when Barry doesn't do what IT wants him to. When it was a mixture of science and climate that made Barry the Flash.???

Barry going into the Speed Force WAS him sacrificing himself. Short of killing him off permanently, and this ending the show, this is the closest he'll come to dying-because NOW, the Speedforce is a fucking prison and Barry won't be living it up in there as if he's at Club Med.

I mean, yeah, but a) this is all Barry's fault, so if anybody deserves hell it's him, and b) it will only last for like a week. He'll be fine. He saw Iris dying in front of him like ten times, and he was fine.

But I do agree that the writers have totally botched what the Speed Force is supposed to be. Is it really vindictive (which is why the earthquakes were happening) or is it benevolent (which is why it took the face of Barry's mother) and "it" just practically/technically "needs" a prisoner/occupant? And if so, why? 

Also, didn't "Nora" say it wasn't going to be hell? It was just the end of the line? Was the Speed Force lying? I kinda saw that moment as Barry accepting eternal, like, stasis. Not hell. Iris said that word, but "Nora" said otherwise. Barry's casual reaction tells me he's just going to be put on ice, so the planet isn't destroyed. Which, again, would be his fault, so he brought this on himself.

5 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Maybe the Speed Force brought Barry back to undo "Flashpoint" and next year we'll pick up with the show moments after season 2's ending. With the original group of characters we got to know in the first two seasons, and not the "basically the same, but slightly different, but don't worry about it" crew from this season.

I would absolutely love that.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Princess Lucky

[Cthulhudrew]

13 hours ago, quarks said:

2. Where did Jay Garrick get a suit for the funeral?

Maybe that was his private Hell in the Speed Force- it forced him to work non-stop as a seamstress? You know, kind of like Rip and his eternity of cake baking in Legends? :p

[mrspidey]

13 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

So was Black Flash a kind of time wraith ?  Have we encountered Black Flash before ?  And how did Savitar know that Black Flash could be defeated by cold ?  How did Savitar know that Killer Frost's cold was 'cold enough'.

Yes, Black Flash is a time wraith. Yes we encountered him before when the actual time wraiths took Hunter Zolomon with them, turning him into Black Flash. Then he showed up on Legends of Tommorrow, chasing that other speedster paradox named Eobard Thawn. He eventually got to him and killed him. 

As for Savitar's knowledge about BF, he's been a speedster much longer than Barry so it makes sense that he knows stuff like that simply from experience. 

[Bats27]

-Hopefully Caitlin gets to be more anti-heroish next season (given that comic book Caitlin is tat way and part of Batman's new JL team, it'd fit).

-Hopefully Iris gets a story that gives her some actual agency of her own (and not just at the very end as a desperate way to salvage things).  Do more with the reporter thing, or make her a cop like her dad, or have her run for office, whatever just something.

-Hopefully Gypsy sticks around more and we get to see her and Cisco's dynamic develop.

-Hopefully we see more of Jesse and they stop they stop writing her in and out of the show at random.

-Hopefully the show isn't a depressing slog to get through next next season.

[TwistedandBored]

I am happy to see Iris shoot the bastard who wanted her dead. Seriously, Iris was awesome throughout the episode. 

16 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Somebody needs to tell Grant Gustin and Candice Patton to OPEN THEIR MOUTHS AND GIVE US SOME TONGUE when they're supposed to be kissing each other goodbye perhaps forever. Seriously, they clearly need that specific direction shouted at them.

I love you so much for this because that was exactly my thought process during that whole kissing scene. And, come one show, 1 kiss scene for the entire episode...that is just so mean to us WestAllen fans. 

[johntfs]

14 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Before he went in to the Speed Force I wanted Barry to say "I love you Iris. I've always loved you." and then for Iris to say "Ditto."

Nah, Iris should say, "Me too."  Always go for the Star Wars reference.

[Cekrypton1]

19 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Nah, Iris should say, "Me too."  Always go for the Star Wars reference.

Well then, she should've said, "I know." ;-)

[tennisgurl]

Yes! Iris gets to do stuff! She gets to give the big speech at HRs funeral AND shoot the bad guy in the back to save Barry! That almost makes up for her utter lack of agency throughout the entire season. Almost.

It took me awhile to warm up to HR, but I really did like him by the end, and I'm really sad that he died, even if he went out like a hero. Yeah I knew that was probably what happened, even last week, but it was still a decent twist. It worked for me. I felt awful for poor Tracey though. Especially when they were trying to convince her to help Savitar like one day after he killed her boyfriend. Granted, he didn't know he killed him, but still! Why would she try to help him? I guess I can get why Iris and Barry were trying to help him, because it sounds like it did suck to be him, and he is still a version of himself/her fiancé, but I can also see why everyone else has zero desire to help this phantom of the multiverse asshole.

Poor Barry and Iris, they just cant catch a break, can they? I know that Barry will be back, obviously, but it still hurt seeing Iris crying about how they were supposed to have a happy ending. Honestly, why cant the writers just let me be for a few episodes? Its getting ridiculous. At this point, it almost seems like the Universe itself is trying to keep them apart.

Yea, Gypsy is back! She's an awesome character, and after the absolute mess of gender issues this season has had, I'm all for having more proactive female characters. I don't even need woman who kick ass in fights, I just want them to be competent and have their own stories that they have something to do with. It cant be that hard. I also like her and Cisco, they're awfully cute. Bad girls sure do love Cisco, don't they? Granted, she isn't a villain or anything, but she's still way more hard core than most of Team Flash. Except for Iris apparently. "Do you feel bad you shot Evil Barry in the back?" "Not really, screw that guy". Right there with you, girl.

[Simba122504]

It's finally over! Does this mean this season never happened? I'm pretending it did. The season wasn't good. S2 wasn't good. S1 so far is still the best season. How long will Barry be in the Speed Force?  I say one episode because this show never keeps those kind of storylines going for more than one/two episodes. Color me surprised if it lasts past the season premiere. The Flash wants new Wells every season, so maybe Harry really is dying or goes back to E2 after a few episodes. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'm not sure what Jay went through because we didn't get to see it, but Wally was in Hell. He was in a catatonic state, reliving seeing Iris being murdered in an unending loop and him not being able to save her. Barry took him back and Jay took Wally's place.

This is incorrect. Wally wasn't in hell. He was in a hospital room reliving his mother Francine's death. And if I remember correctly, she passed away peacefully (not violently). I really wouldn't call reliving that hell. Don't get me wrong losing a parent is tough, but when they pass away naturally, or as natural as a terminal illness is, and peacefully, in a hospital surrounded by doctors to help if there is pain, and with loving family around, meh, Wally had it easy. Wally couldn't save her, she was terminal and even a speedster isn't stopping that. He was reliving a painful memory, but I don't know, after the 10th time I think I would be over it.

Now Barry, witnessing his mothers violent dead at the hands of RF, or his dad at the hands of Zoom or Iris at the hands of Savitar and not being fast enough (as a speedster) to stop the plunging sharp objects...that would be hell. After the 10th time, you are still trying to figure out different ways to save them and be fast enough and beating yourself up about it.

[RedVitC]

17 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Hmm. Somebody correct me if they got a better look, but I think the save the date card might have said November...would they actually want to time the wedding for the big 4-show crossover? 

Not sure how I feel about that. I did consider that as a possibility originally, but then I thought it would deserve its own occasion. The crossover has to be one standalone story that can last over the four episodes, doesn't it? I mean you can explain everyone showing up on Flash for the wedding, but what about the rest of the shows? The wedding couldn't be the story for the other shows episodes. Could it? I guess it could be background or something.

I wouldn't be opposed to the wedding being during the crossovers, but like you I'm not sure how it would work (and ideally It'd be nice if they could give proper attention to it, which there might not be enough time for during the crossovers). I could see some kind of scenario where everyone comes to the same place for wedding festivities, but then oh no, shenanigans with a big villain and everything derails (this could be anything, a standard attack, other reality etc). And then in the final episode of the crossover, after everything is back to normal, the actual wedding would take place. That way the wedding would be important without necessarily being the focus of the episodes. But that would mean the wedding would take place during Arrow, and the Barry/Iris wedding should be a Flash episode.

If it really says November on the card, though, that could be a clue. Or maybe they don't think people will look?

Edited May 24, 2017 by RedVitC
add a thought

[GHScorpiosRule]

43 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

This is incorrect. Wally wasn't in hell. He was in a hospital room reliving his mother Francine's death. And if I remember correctly, she passed away peacefully (not violently). I really wouldn't call reliving that hell. Don't get me wrong losing a parent is tough, but when they pass away naturally, or as natural as a terminal illness is, and peacefully, in a hospital surrounded by doctors to help if there is pain, and with loving family around, meh, Wally had it easy. Wally couldn't save her, she was terminal and even a speedster isn't stopping that. He was reliving a painful memory, but I don't know, after the 10th time I think I would be over it.

Now Barry, witnessing his mothers violent dead at the hands of RF, or his dad at the hands of Zoom or Iris at the hands of Savitar and not being fast enough (as a speedster) to stop the plunging sharp objects...that would be hell. After the 10th time, you are still trying to figure out different ways to save them and be fast enough and beating yourself up about it.

D'OH! You're right! ??‍♀️Don't know how I got the two mixed up!

By the way, LOVE!! ❤️ ❤️❤️❤️ your avatar, @Spaceman Spiff, cuz he's one of my favorite characters!!! I miss Calvin & Hobbes!!!

AHEM.

My favorite line in the episode though, was Cisco's deadpan delivery of "So you're going to Reverse Flash me now?" to EVUHL!Barry, when he vibrated his hand and brought it close to Cisco's chest.??

Edited May 24, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[RedVitC]

8 hours ago, Grace19 said:

I really enjoyed this finale better than the past ones, maybe it's because the ladies got to save the day in this one or because iris/Candice got a lot to do, oh or maybe because starlabs is gone for now.

I also enjoyed this season finale more than the past 2. I know people like the season 1 one a lot, and it had some great scenes, but for me it didn't really click (maybe because I felt more time should have been spent on the actual going back in time part). I'd rank the finales: S3, S2, S1 (with S3 being the one I enjoyed most)

Edited May 24, 2017 by RedVitC

[Richness]

Sorry to be so cold, but I'm so thankful that we're finally rid of HR. The actor is fantastic, but the HR character was simply annoying every single second he was on the screen. I wanted to stab him with his own drumsticks; may they rot in piece with him. However, I will admit that I am also thankful that he used his face change tech to save Iris, so he at least gets one saving grace. Unfortunately, it's not enough to offset enduring him for most of the season. I was so annoyed when they showed "HR" running up on the roof to grab the gun after showing Iris dying. While I knew they'd do a switch to save her, I didn't think it would be a double switch.

 

The stupid train continues full steam ahead when it comes to Killer Frost. The whole stupid nonsense that meta powers made Caitlin evil was absurd from the get go. That she finally was able to overcome her evil powers just continues to spread the perpetuate the stupid. I really like Caitlin, but they're ruining her character just as much as Gotham ruined the Lee character.

 

At least the stupid train that was Savitar can finally be put to rest. His motivations never did and still don't make any sense. I'm not particularly upset that the paradox would take a couple of hours to take him out since they've shown on Legends that time takes a a bit to stabilize and solidify. But since Gideon's secret newspaper stand and other things have remained after Thawn's paradoxing, I'm not too awfully upset that Wally still has his powers. We're just going to have to accept that the writer's are going to cherry pick which things stick around even if it makes no sense.

 

I just hope my fun, enjoyable Flash from season 1 returns next season.

[call me ishmael]

12 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

*bangs head on wall, realizing how right you are.  TheCW's "treasure trove" trope*

And that probably won't be the only 'triangle', either.   By the time "Caitlin" comes back to TeamFlash, Julian will be with someone else... or she'll be with someone else, but Julian still loves her.  Can already feel the migraine coming on......

Maybe Caitlin will take up with Iris and they will seek their revenge for all of the bad plot lines they've been stuck with.

[AudienceofOne]

5 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

Maybe Caitlin will take up with Iris and they will seek their revenge for all of the bad plot lines they've been stuck with.

Sounds like the plot of the next Jasper Fforde novel. That book would be way better than this.

[Maverick]

14 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

The interns really need to start paying attention to the little details in their assignments -- during that scene in the time vault when they were looking at the newspaper headline, that is that article titled "Wayne Tech/Queen Inc Merger Complete" but the story below that article title is talking about illness caused by DNA damage caused by radiation.  FFS !

And the text of the main headline goes as follows: "After an extreme street battle with the Reverse-Flash, our city's very own Scarlet Speedster disappeared in an explosion of light.  The cause of the fight is unknown.  According to witnesses, The Flash, with help from Starling City's Green Arrow, The Atom and Hawkgirl, began fighting the Reverse-Flash around midnight last night."

For starters, Star City hasn't been Starling City for a while (at least 7-8 years) from 2024 perspective.  And isn't Hawkgirl long gone.

And isn't Joe West supposed to be police chief by now ?  At least according to one of the Vibe sessions early in the season, that also mentioned Grodd attacking Central City.  Because in the 2024 article Joe West is still CCPD chief.

If the time vault still exists from S1 (since it should have disappeared when Eddie Thawne killed himself), of course Savitar's lack of existence has no repercussions through the timeline.  </sarcasm>

 Hawkgirl is still around.  She and Hawkman stayed in 2017 rather than continuing with the Legends.  She could be part of a future JL.  Starling City?  Got nothing.

 Not only was Joe supposed to be a chief, but Music Meister was supposed to get a book deal.  Which, WTF?  Why would a trans-dimensional imp look for a book deal?  And about what?  It's not like he did something splashy the world saw.

[ottoDbusdriver]

12 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

They literally showed Wally losing his powers because Barry (and Savitar) got amnesia, like two weeks ago. But Savitar is erased and Wally is the new Flash? And no one even mentions a bullshit explanation why that happened?

Speaking of bullshit, why on earth would Savitar disappear in "a few hours" and not immediately? What did they mean by "until the paradox reaches him"? At first I thought they meant "until a particular event happens, which would erase him from existence" (leven though that event did happen, when he failed to kill Iris), but the way they said "oh, idk, a couple of hours" made it seem like they were pulling that timeframe out of their asses. I didn't understand that at all.

 

You know, the paradox has to follow Evul!BarrytimeRenant into the future, then travel backwards in time 5000 or so years, and then travel forward to catch up to the present -- which takes a couple of hours at least (unless the paradox takes a wrong turn at Albuquerque).  

11 hours ago, sarthaz said:

This could have sucked a lot worse.  

Agreed, it could have.  But, much like S1 when Eobard was erased from existence, despite Savitar having never been created all of the byproducts of Savitar's actions remain in place.  My brain hurts.  And that's why S3 is so underwhelming -- because it's basically S1 redux.

[ottoDbusdriver]

8 hours ago, mrspidey said:

Yes, Black Flash is a time wraith. Yes we encountered him before when the actual time wraiths took Hunter Zolomon with them, turning him into Black Flash. Then he showed up on Legends of Tommorrow, chasing that other speedster paradox named Eobard Thawn. He eventually got to him and killed him. 

As for Savitar's knowledge about BF, he's been a speedster much longer than Barry so it makes sense that he knows stuff like that simply from experience. 

Well, I hadn't caught up on LoT yet, so #spoilers.

But if Black Flash was just created in S2, how would Savitar know much about him at all ?

And shouldn't the Time Wraiths be constantly after Savitar -- because Savitar is one massive time anomaly.  Barry has been harassed by the Time Wraiths for much smaller time incursions, so how come Savitar gets to hang around for thousands of years and the time wraiths leave him alone.

[Leia1979]

I'm so disappointed Cisco didn't make a comment about Savitar creating Horcruxes.

Nice to see Iris got a chance to be useful. I was hoping they might postpone the Killer Frost/Caitlin stuff until next season. I guess they sort of are, but I was hoping she'd consider the cure for awhile longer.

[Trini]

Has anyone seen any HD screencaps of the save the date card? I'm almost sure the date was November 29, 2017. (but probably 28 because that's a Tuesday) Would they attempt a crossover wedding? I have a feeling it would get postponed to later in the season anyway. Fall (on TV) is kinda early for a wedding.

[RobertDeSneero]

18 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Can't believe I didn't come up with this on my own (read it elsewhere), but if Savitar is gone -- how does Wally still have his speed/SF powers?  Just a few weeks ago, Barry losing his memories caused Wally's powers to have never happened, but with Savitar killed/paradoxed/whatever'd out of existence, Wally's still KF.

Umm....................

The timeline is fluid.  So, Wally's powers can come and go based on changes to the timeline.  But even if Savitar is erased, his existence has to have left a footprint, to avoid creating paradoxes that rip the timeline apart.  So, Wally still has speed and HR is still dead.  Him being gone does not undo all of that.  The Speed Force protects the existence of time remnants to keep the timeline from imploding.   I can fanwank that Eddie Thawne killing himself in such close proximity to Eobard is what created a singularity that the Speed Force was unable to protect the timeline from.

Would I have written it differently?  Sure.  When Savitar reveals that his plan is to be fragmented throughout all of time and Barry says that Snart told him the Flash should stay a hero, I thought we would get Barry talking his time remnant into having a change of heart, but it would be necessary to go through with his plan anyways because Savitar being scattered throughout the timeline is actually how the Speed Force is created, so Barry's remnant is actually the Speed Force and has been manipulating events to bring itself into existence.  (And other speedsters someone become part of the Speed Force when they die.)

[Chyromaniac]

So, both Supergirl and Flash's villains this season dissolve into nothingness after being exposed to lead...

[ruby24]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Has anyone seen any HD screencaps of the save the date card? I'm almost sure the date was November 29, 2017. (but probably 28 because that's a Tuesday) Would they attempt a crossover wedding? I have a feeling it would get postponed to later in the season anyway. Fall (on TV) is kinda early for a wedding.

I was wondering if anyone else could confirm that! I couldn't make out the "29, 2017" part, but I'm pretty sure I saw the word "November." 

If that's what it said, then it had to be intentional. I already looked at the calendar and that's definitely the week the crossover would be taking place (although the 29th is a Wednesday and The Flash is on Tuesdays, but since Legends is being paired with Flash in the fall, they may have to move one of the shows to Wed for that week anyway, since Arrow is going to be on Thursdays).

I'm up for a crossover wedding! Or at least an attempt at one. I assumed they'd want to invite people like Oliver, Kara, Felicity, etc, so whenever the wedding episode took place was going to have some crossover characters. Why not go ahead and make it the big one? And if there's some sort of fight or villain or whatever that crashes the whole event, they can always give them a smaller, intimate, "makeup" ceremony in the Christmas episode right afterwards (which is usually WestAllen heavy anyway). Then send them off on their honeymoon for the winter hiatus, which is perfect timing.

I say go for it. I like the idea of making it a big, in-universe event episode. I don't actually think fall is too early for the wedding, that's during sweeps (it actually used to be tradition for TV shows to have either weddings or births or major deaths during sweeps). It'll have massive ratings, because the big crossovers always do.

Edited May 25, 2017 by ruby24

[AudienceofOne]

7 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I was wondering if anyone else could confirm that! I couldn't make out the "29, 2017" part, but I'm pretty sure I saw the word "November." 

If that's what it said, then it had to be intentional. I already looked at the calendar and that's definitely the week the crossover would be taking place (although the 29th is a Wednesday and The Flash is on Tuesdays

Hahahaha. They're going to have a four episode crossover event culminating with Iris and Barry's wedding - on Arrow. I wouldn't put it past them. I can hear the screams now.

[ruby24]

1 minute ago, AudienceofOne said:

Hahahaha. They're going to have a four episode crossover event culminating with Iris and Barry's wedding - on Arrow. I wouldn't put it past them. I can hear the screams now.

Lol, nah. It'd have to happen on The Flash, but what they could actually do is switch the order of the shows around that week, so that Flash is last. I know that's unlikely, but since the ratings are so high for these crossovers, I don't think it would hurt anything.

[Trini]

15 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I was wondering if anyone else could confirm that! I couldn't make out the "29, 2017" part, but I'm pretty sure I saw the word "November." 

Yeah, I could barely make out "November [??] Twenty Seventeen" from my screencap. The numerals(?) are the blurriest; but I'm assuming it's one of the Tuesdays in November.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I have to whistle a ('nother) technical foul on that final sequence. 

Barry will now have to possibly endure eternity [as if, but play along] trapped within the SpeedForce as penance for both his own actions & consequences of said actions, but despite possibly never being able to see Iris, Joe, and the rest ever again... he seemed almost eager to go, overly so even.  It was freaking weird.  I don't think I would have been surprised at all - in retrospect - if he had of broken out in a song and dance before skipping into the SF with "mom".

He's basically saying goodbye to his whole life and everything, but he's happy & content while doing so. 

"Does, not, compute.  Error.  Error."

[RobertDeSneero]

5 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Lol, nah. It'd have to happen on The Flash, but what they could actually do is switch the order of the shows around that week, so that Flash is last. I know that's unlikely, but since the ratings are so high for these crossovers, I don't think it would hurt anything.

The crossover would work like this....Supergirl is mostly unrelated, until she gets the invitation at the end.  Everyone from all the shows appear for the wedding on The Flash.  The wedding gets interrupted by a villainous threat.  Legends features some of the characters on a search for some information about the threat or a weapon to be used against it.  Everything is resolved on Arrow.

So, for example, Supergirl defeats Mxyzptlk and gets a wedding invitation.  The audience sees what Kara does not, that Mxyzptlk was attacked by something that made him vulnerable.  Music Meister shows up at the wedding.  He gets attacked.  It is revealed that he and Mxyzptlk are related and he knows about what happened on Supergirl.  The Legends travel back in time after determining that some historical event may be related after MM mentions that some historical figure was a similar being.  They bring some mystical device to Arrow, where it is used to defeat a mystical, multidimensional threat.