S34.E11: Reinventing How This Game Is Played

[laprin]

I'm not sure why we keep using the term "alliances" to describe what is better termed "voting blocks." That IS the game changer as far as Survivor, and it is here to stay.  Alliances were certainly useful, but players now understand that an alliance can also be a noose. A voting block gives you the feeling of an alliance, but with added flexibility. It is also makes voting blocks more dangerous and enjoyable to watch. 

[needschocolate]

Everyone voted for someone in their alliance from last tribal (the 4 person alliance voted for Tai, the 6 person alliance voted for Zeke), except the two targets, who both voted for Sierra.  Zeke is the one one who didn't vote for someone in his alliance from last week.  

[cuphead]

I thought it was genius to have Brad, Troyzan and SIerra vote Tai,and for Tai to vote Sierra.  In doing that, the women's alliance have effectively created mistrust in the WWMD alliance.  SIerra and Brad are tight, so knowing that Tai flipped and voted for Sierra would definitely make them view Tai as disloyal.  And having them vote for him would definitely make Tai feel betrayed and targeted.  Can't see them working together anymore after that vote.

In addition, voting out Zeke meant they would be cutting it close on their numbers advantage, so they had to find a way to swing someone from the other side just for a bit of a cushion. Targeting Tai to be their isolated flipper makes sense since he isn't a strategic threat and seems a bit malleable emotionally, which means it wouldn't be difficult for someone like Cirie to control his vote.  

Speaking of Cirie,  remember when she was two step ahead of everyone and managed to convince the WWMD alliance to vote out Halie as a way to keep Michaela around as a secret ally?  Taking this into account, I can believe that Cirie was the one who came up with the idea to make Tai their swing target so she can keep him close as a kind of vote-goat.. We have seen them bond on several occasions (e.g. the chat they had after the RC when she crossed the balance beam), and Tai even expressed a desire to work with Cirie very early on in the season. This points to a potential alliance somewhere down the line, and with each passing day they are getting closer to the end of the line, so it's now or never.  

[azshadowwalker]

Tuned in for the first time in weeks, and was happy I did. Zeke finally gone. Andrea and Cirie playing good games. Nothing seems set in stone, as far as votes. But I was reminded why I hate idols. Three idols and two advantages floating around. No matter how good someone might be at the game, there's just too much luck involved with that many ways to turn the game without having to really play. Luck will always play in, but it's gotten to stupid levels. That's what's hurting this show, especially this season. I just can't be bothered to care, when someone can play their ass off, but have to face down this many advantages that are unrelated to playing the game. Survivor is getting boring. 

And I miss Sandra. 

 

ETA: "Voting blocks" are meaningless. There have always been floaters, flippers and sub-alliances. The fact that Jeff and Hannah tried to act like this was something new doesn't make it so. It has been done many times. 

Edited May 5, 2017 by azshadowwalker

[MrsR]

The fact that there are three idols, a legacy, and an advantage out there and none of them are in the hands of Andrea, Cirie, Michaela and Aubrey makes me believe that none of them are getting anywhere near the final three.

 

There are nine people left in this game. All these idols have to be played by the the final five. 4 people are getting screwed very soon. Yeah, there can be a double play even two double plays but that leaves three nights of surprises in store. I love that those four have turned the game around the way they have but I don't see them being on the winning side of any of those idol plays.

Edited May 5, 2017 by MrsR

[Nashville]

12 minutes ago, MrsR said:

The fact that there are three idols, a legacy, and an advantage out there and none of them are in the hands of Andrea, Cirie, Michaela and Aubrey makes me believe that none of them are getting anywhere near the final three.

 

There are nine people left in this game. All these idols have to be played by the the final five. 4 people are getting screwed very soon. Yeah, there can be a double play even two double plays but that leaves three nights of surprises in store. I love that those four have turned the game around the way they have but I don't see them being on the winning side of any of those idol plays.

This is one of those post I hate to agree with - but I do, absolutely.  :(

[NeverLate]

3 hours ago, Eolivet said:

Disagree strongly about Brad. We've had confessionals from Aubry, of all people, saying how much she likes Brad. Zeke liked Brad. Sierra likes Brad. Tai and Troyzan like Brad.

We've gotten very few confessionals of anyone saying they want to get Brad out. Sierra, yes. Tai, yes. Brad, no.

And we've gotten a number of random confessionals not about how Brad has become more awesome (which would be a surefire Spencer/David "you're not winning, but look how awesome Survivor made you"), but how what he's learned from Monica has made him more awesome. Heck, the show made #WWMD into a hashtag.

 

I don't get the Brad dislike, because he doesn't bother me.  He's playing a good game, maybe a little under the radar, but you hardly hear him moan( I'm starving etc) 

[Superpole2000]

On 5/3/2017 at 9:48 PM, vb68 said:

I'm so tired of the puzzles. I wish they could think of something else.

Watching people work on a puzzle can be awful television. They're thinking...and...they're still thinking...and...still thinking! The only way puzzles work on TV is when you give the audience a chance to try to solve the puzzle themselves. But they never give us that opportunity. It's like watching Wheel of Fortune without seeing the puzzle board...or watching a quiz show and never hearing the questions.

[azshadowwalker]

10 minutes ago, F. M. said:

I don't get the Brad dislike, because he doesn't bother me.  He's playing a good game, maybe a little under the radar, but you hardly hear him moan( I'm starving etc) 

I think people are still holding his previous appearance against him. I have no problem with Brad this season. 

[NeverLate]

4 minutes ago, azshadowwalker said:

I think people are still holding his previous appearance against him. I have no problem with Brad this season. 

Once they are off my screen, I don't think about them. So his previous playing, doesn't  bother me.:) 

[MsTree]

4 hours ago, laprin said:

I'm not sure why we keep using the term "alliances" to describe what is better termed "voting blocks." 

I believe the term was first coined by Richard Hatch. Other than his 3 member 'alliance', I miss the "innocence" of the first season when everyone voted for whomever they felt deserved to go. Well, other than the doctor's alphabet vote.

[SVNBob]

On 5/4/2017 at 2:03 AM, KimberStormer said:

I honestly don't understand why they would run that challenge again unmodified when it was such a disappointment last season.

Because it was still set up from last season.  All they had to do (if anything) was repaint certain portions (the "tires", the benches, the puzzle boards) new colors when they repainted the tiles for the new puzzle.

[Haleth]

8 hours ago, MrsR said:

The fact that there are three idols, a legacy, and an advantage out there and none of them are in the hands of Andrea, Cirie, Michaela and Aubrey makes me believe that none of them are getting anywhere near the final three.

Unless (as I hope) Tai is now with them and uses one of his idols to protect whoever is on the chopping block.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Idols and advantages are part of the game.  They aren't lucky tomatoes being pelted particularly at the players you (general you) hate.  Everyone should be looking for idols.  Maybe they are, but I doubt it.  

I don't understand the stubborn type of playing where one relies just on voting and making 'alliances', when there are other aspects to the game, and I don't get admiring that type of play either, let alone preferring it.  One should be making all aspects of the game part of their game. It reminds me of Joey Tribbiani saying, "When a blind man gets his sight back, does he walk around like this?"  (deliberately closes eyes and feels around in the air)

Edited May 5, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[TaraS1]

19 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Where are you guys even getting this stuff?  It's completely made up.  She pushed back gently against the idea of Zeke, since she wanted Zeke for her own game -- shocking I know -- but she dropped it as soon as Andrea and Cirie made it clear they really wanted it.

From my brain area, where my opinions live? lol.  But seriously, Sarah's just a loose cannon to me.  She's admitted that she's willing to flip whenever necessary and Cirie knew they had to handle her with kid gloves where Zeke was concerned.  She just strikes me as one of those players who needs an ego stroke to keep her from flipping, and I thought Cirie did a great job with that.

8 hours ago, MrsR said:

There are nine people left in this game. All these idols have to be played by the the final five. 4 people are getting screwed very soon. Yeah, there can be a double play even two double plays but that leaves three nights of surprises in store. I love that those four have turned the game around the way they have but I don't see them being on the winning side of any of those idol plays.

I agree and it's such a bummer.  None of the people I'm rooting for have an advantage and it makes for a rather depressing view of how the rest of the game is probably going to go.

[Lamb18]

One reason I think Andrea wanted Zeke gone was because he's unpredictable. She knows Brad, Troyzan, Tai and Sierra are her game enemies and will probably vote for her if they can. Aubry, Cirie, Michaela and Sarah are her allies, particularly Aubry and Cirie. But Zeke - who knows what he'll do? She can't count on him being an enemy or a friend or even being trustworthy in a temporary voting alliance. So she got rid of the unpredictability.

[eurekagirl mOo]

Forgive me if this has been discussed. I just saw this Thrus. night and I'm only up to page 2.........Now their taking them OFF the island to sleep in a BED???? And, I assume, a hot shower and clean clothes. We saw the food. Now here's my gripe---Isn't this SURVIVOR? Aren't they supposed to -- I don't know-- Survive? Like ON the island? This is just so DUMB. They are so soft on these people compared to what they used to go through. I just think that's WAY to big an advantage for entire team. One person getting to sleep in a hammock and have food as a reward is all ok but seriously? Next Time On Survivor--- The teams struggle to survive at the Motel 6 while the winners go to the Four Seasons! Blech...Let's get back to REAL surviving please. 

[MisterBluxom]

On 2017-05-04 at 8:38 AM, ghoulina said:

Debbie calling them idiots was real rich.....as she sits on the jury, blindsided by her own arrogance. 

Arrogance? Yes!  Very much so!

Self-Centered?  Yes.  Oh yes!  Incredibly so!

The only times and circumstances that I recall where Debbie seems to care about others is when she thinks, "What can I say or do to make these people think I am wonderful?"  Seems to me that is Debbie's primary modus operendi.

The best people I've met often talk about "putting themselves in the other person's shoes."  That is a good technique for gaining some perspective - to understand what things are like for other people.  I can't imagine that Debbie ever does that. She doesn't seem to care at all about others people - except to impress them with her supposed greatness.

Edited May 5, 2017 by MissBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

1 hour ago, eurekagirl mOo said:

Forgive me if this has been discussed. I just saw this Thrus. night and I'm only up to page 2.........Now their taking them OFF the island to sleep in a BED???? And, I assume, a hot shower and clean clothes. We saw the food. Now here's my gripe---Isn't this SURVIVOR? Aren't they supposed to -- I don't know-- Survive? Like ON the island? This is just so DUMB. They are so soft on these people compared to what they used to go through. I just think that's WAY to big an advantage for entire team. One person getting to sleep in a hammock and have food as a reward is all ok but seriously? Next Time On Survivor--- The teams struggle to survive at the Motel 6 while the winners go to the Four Seasons! Blech...Let's get back to REAL surviving please. 

They must think that in order to keep up the ratings, they have to keep adding new twists and turns.

The one thing that would really help - but they never seem to consider - would be to have Jeff shut the *BLEEP* up during the competitions.

When we have a endurance challenge that lasts for an hour, how can it possibly make sense for Jeff to be yapping non-stop throughout the whole challenge?

I just mute the TV and play some music instead. I can't stand listening to Jeff during competitions - especially since half of what he says is trying to convince us that Survivor is just the most wonderful thing on earth. Nothing has ever been better than Survivor. He leaves me feeling like puking!

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, eurekagirl mOo said:

Forgive me if this has been discussed. I just saw this Thrus. night and I'm only up to page 2.........Now their taking them OFF the island to sleep in a BED???? And, I assume, a hot shower and clean clothes. We saw the food. Now here's my gripe---Isn't this SURVIVOR? Aren't they supposed to -- I don't know-- Survive? Like ON the island? This is just so DUMB. They are so soft on these people compared to what they used to go through. I just think that's WAY to big an advantage for entire team. One person getting to sleep in a hammock and have food as a reward is all ok but seriously? Next Time On Survivor--- The teams struggle to survive at the Motel 6 while the winners go to the Four Seasons! Blech...Let's get back to REAL surviving please. 

But when has it ever been about "real" surviving?  I remember way back in Survivor Classic Season 1, that Gretchen, some kind of military person with actual survival skills, was shocked at how little actual surviving there was going to be.  This show has never been about surviving.  They are always given the barebones comforts (rice, machete, etc.) and then they have to learn how to ration what they have and supplement it with whatever else they find  (taaaapeeohcah!).  Yes, there was Survivor Australia where a flash flood washed their camp away and Tina swam through a flood-risen river to rescue their rice.  There was that season several seasons ago where a team ran out of rice and Jeff gave them more rice but took away everything else they had.  But this show has never been about making fish traps and snare loops out of fronds to try and catch lizards to eat.  The Survivor aspect is more about surviving each other.  If you're looking for real survival, you're looking for "Naked and Afraid" (and there is doubt even as to how real the surviving is there) or "Dual Survival".

10 hours ago, F. M. said:

Once they are off my screen, I don't think about them. So his previous playing, doesn't  bother me.:) 

Re dislike of Brad, I was one of those people who hated him intensely during his last appearance.  Yet I find myself actively rooting for him here.  He is a good competitor and his social game is vastly improved from last time.  I do feel like he and Monica must have had long discussions about how to change his strategy.  It seems to be working for him.  

Regarding disliking people once off the screen, I can't do it.  I still have intense dislike of Ozzy and always will.  All based on past appearances.

Edited May 5, 2017 by blackwing

[simplyme]

8 hours ago, SVNBob said:

Because it was still set up from last season.  All they had to do (if anything) was repaint certain portions (the "tires", the benches, the puzzle boards) new colors when they repainted the tiles for the new puzzle.

Excellent point. Also, I believe every single challenge so far has been a redo of a challenge in a former season, so modifying this one would break pattern.

(Sorry if that crushed the hopes of anyone looking for new challenges. Apparently they are relying on the players and advantages/twists to be the game changers, not the challenges.)

[NeverLate]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

But when has it ever been about "real" surviving?  I remember way back in Survivor Classic Season 1, that Gretchen, some kind of military person with actual survival skills, was shocked at how little actual surviving there was going to be.  This show has never been about surviving.  They are always given the barebones comforts (rice, machete, etc.) and then they have to learn how to ration what they have and supplement it with whatever else they find  (taaaapeeohcah!).  Yes, there was Survivor Australia where a flash flood washed their camp away and Tina swam through a flood-risen river to rescue their rice.  There was that season several seasons ago where a team ran out of rice and Jeff gave them more rice but took away everything else they had.  But this show has never been about making fish traps and snare loops out of fronds to try and catch lizards to eat.  The Survivor aspect is more about surviving each other.  If you're looking for real survival, you're looking for "Naked and Afraid" (and there is doubt even as to how real the surviving is there) or "Dual Survival".

Re dislike of Brad, I was one of those people who hated him intensely during his last appearance.  Yet I find myself actively rooting for him here.  He is a good competitor and his social game is vastly improved from last time.  I do feel like he and Monica must have had long discussions about how to change his strategy.  It seems to be working for him.  

Regarding disliking people once off the screen, I can't do it.  I still have intense dislike of Ozzy and always will.  All based on past appearances.

I love Ozzy. I have said, his social game sucks. But when he's in his element, at one with nature, that's the Ozzy I love. I think Brad saw himself, and didn't like what he saw, that in itself is a, " game changer" . I'll root for Brad and Sarah, if they get voted out, then I won't care who wins. I already feel a little like that. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

The All Stars have already been through their "survival" seasons once.  These are like the cushiony seasons for the multiple season players ;)  There has to be an incentive for them to return right?  Like I know the million dollars is incentive, but you need to have a guaranteed incentive built in for everyone which should hopefully produce good casting, which should hopefully produce good ratings ;)

Edited May 5, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[KimberStormer]

8 hours ago, SVNBob said:

Because it was still set up from last season.  All they had to do (if anything) was repaint certain portions (the "tires", the benches, the puzzle boards) new colors when they repainted the tiles for the new puzzle.

Well yeah, but they had to repaint the tiles, as you say.  Which means they could have repainted them into a picture puzzle like I suggest.  All that they need to do is make the puzzle part easier and it's a great challenge.  It happened exactly the same way last season, so I don't know why they didn't change it.

4 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Idols and advantages are part of the game.  They aren't lucky tomatoes being pelted particularly at the players you (general you) hate.  Everyone should be looking for idols.  Maybe they are, but I doubt it.  

I don't understand the stubborn type of playing where one relies just on voting and making 'alliances', when there are other aspects to the game, and I don't get admiring that type of play either, let alone preferring it.  One should be making all aspects of the game part of their game. It reminds me of Joey Tribbiani saying, "When a blind man gets his sight back, does he walk around like this?"  (deliberately closes eyes and feels around in the air)

I don't think there is anyone who has ever played Survivor who was too "stubborn" to look for idols.  There have been people too stubborn to play the game at all, in terms of alliances and deception and stuff (and on their bitter walk away from tribal they say, "you know, it's real easy to play this game as a liar, but I wanted to play with integrity"), but it's been a long time since I remember that happening.  I'm sure everyone looks for idols.  I've seen Cirie (in that wonderful sequence in Micronesia) work very hard on a fruitless quest for an idol; Andrea I believe still has the distinction of being the only female idol holder to go home with it in her pocket...it's not that anyone on that side is too lazy or whatever you are saying to look for idols, they just got unlucky.

Also I will like who I want to like and root for them if I want to root for them, and it can bum me out if they get idoled out. 

3 hours ago, eurekagirl mOo said:

Forgive me if this has been discussed. I just saw this Thrus. night and I'm only up to page 2.........Now their taking them OFF the island to sleep in a BED???? And, I assume, a hot shower and clean clothes. We saw the food. Now here's my gripe---Isn't this SURVIVOR? Aren't they supposed to -- I don't know-- Survive?

This is not exactly a new reward.  I'm sure someone could go back and find the earliest "sleep in a real bed" reward; it was in Panama, at least, which is a pretty long time ago now.

[Special K]

5 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

I don't think there is anyone who has ever played Survivor who was too "stubborn" to look for idols.  There have been people too stubborn to play the game at all, in terms of alliances and deception and stuff (and on their bitter walk away from tribal they say, "you know, it's real easy to play this game as a liar, but I wanted to play with integrity"), but it's been a long time since I remember that happening.

This reminds me of Brenda in her first season who was too stubborn (or perhaps too proud) to argue for her life when she was on the chopping block.  And got voted out.

[Rachel RSL]

19 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

(and on their bitter walk away from tribal they say, "you know, it's real easy to play this game as a liar, but I wanted to play with integrity")

Oh how I LOATHE those people. Live your life with integrity, play Survivor to win!

[Lamb18]

There  was a sleep in a real bed "reward" in Season 6, but it wasn't from a Reward challenge. The youngest member of each tribe had dinner together and got to sleep in a real bed. I think season 5 had one, too. Ted and Kathy got a huge meal and Ted got drunk. But that was an overnight one.

[Bryce Lynch]

13 hours ago, MrsR said:

The fact that there are three idols, a legacy, and an advantage out there and none of them are in the hands of Andrea, Cirie, Michaela and Aubrey makes me believe that none of them are getting anywhere near the final three.

 

There are nine people left in this game. All these idols have to be played by the the final five. 4 people are getting screwed very soon. Yeah, there can be a double play even two double plays but that leaves three nights of surprises in store. I love that those four have turned the game around the way they have but I don't see them being on the winning side of any of those idol plays.

I wouldn't go that far, though all the idols and other magic advantages could certainly hurt their chances.

Still, there are plenty of ways some or all of those 3 could make it to the end:

1) People with idols/advantages get voted out and sent home with them in their pockets.  

2) Some or all of the 4 align themselves with idol/advantage holders.  

3) Immunity runs

4) Botched idol/advantage play

I do think the idols/advantages make it somewhat unlikely that those 4 all make it to the Final 4, but there is still a good chance that 1 or 2 could make it to the end.  

[Bryce Lynch]

23 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

Oh how I LOATHE those people. Live your life with integrity, play Survivor to win!

I don't have a problem with that type as long as 1) they aren't using it as a cover for their inability to lie/bluff well 2) They don't expect everyone else to play with the same level of integrity.

If Survivor culture had evolved a little differently integrity might have been valued more, at least in some seasons.  But as it is, I don't think castaways generally get any points for integrity.  

There are also levels of integrity and deception within Survivor.  I think it is expected that you sometimes lie to people from a rival alliance.  But do you lie to your own alliance, your inner circle within that alliance?  If so, under what circumstances?  To save yourself from sure elimination?  To possibly get a small advantage?

Also, what types of lies do you tell?  Most people would have little problem with "Don't worry, you're safe?", "I swear I'll never write your name down" is taking it to a slightly higher level.  What about, "I swear on my children's lives!", like Tony did?

How about what Varner did to Zeke?  Was that OK, but just bad strategy because it backfired?

I like the fact that different castaways bring differing moral and ethical standards to the game, and it is interesting to see the reaction to them at TC and with the jury.  

Edited May 5, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[fishcakes]

The earliest sleep in a bed reward was in Borneo, season 1. Dr. Sean won an overnight stay on a yacht, with a shower, dinner, a real bed, and breakfast the next morning.

[Special K]

Wasn't there a sleep-in-a-bed reward with watching some  movie on HvsV (or was it All Stars)?  I remember because it was Colby, Amanda, and Danielle, and the two women physically fought over an idol clue (or an advantage -- anyway, a scrap of parchment), while Colby just laid back on the pillows and watched the flick.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Special K

[Rachel RSL]

7 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

The earliest sleep in a bed reward was in Borneo, season 1. Dr. Sean won an overnight stay on a yacht, with a shower, dinner, a real bed, and breakfast the next morning.

Yes! I was just about to mention that. Kelly threw a hissyfit because Sean didn't take her on the reward and then her and Sue were kinda rude to his dad the next day. Still bugs me. 

 

6 minutes ago, Special K said:

Wasn't there a sleep-in-a-bed reward with watching some lame movie on HvsV (or was it All Stars)?  I remember because it was Colby, Amanda, and Parvati (?), and the two women physically fought over an idol clue (or an advantage -- anyway, a scrap of parchment), while Colby just laid back on the pillows and watched the flick.

Amanda, Colby and Danielle. That was hilarious!

[Special K]

Just now, Rachel RSL said:

Amanda, Colby and Danielle. That was hilarious!

I checked that and went back and edited!  It was hilarious.  Colby could barely muster the enthusiasm to care what they were fighting over. (Popcorn was involved.)

[Nashville]

18 hours ago, laprin said:

I'm not sure why we keep using the term "alliances" to describe what is better termed "voting blocks." 

Because there's not enough practical difference between the two to differentiate. A "voting bloc" is merely a short-term (1-2 TC) alliance of convenience, and certainly nothing new in the history of the game.  Methinks the players that pushed the "voting bloc" term so hard a couple or so seasons back just wanted to (a) rationalize a quick succession of short-term alliances and (b) find some way to leave their own personal mark on the game - hence the new term.

[Special K]

5 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Methinks the players that pushed the "voting bloc" term...

Ahem, don't you mean "trust cluster"?  <<shudder>>

[ghoulina]

21 hours ago, Nashville said:

Hmm.  Your reasons why Michaela wasn't acting are, by and large, the same reasons I believe she was.  The tea?  The coconut "popcorn"?  Which one of those do you think wasn't a scripted TC performance?  :)  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think, for me, why these prove she WASN'T acting is because sipping tea and eating popcorn when someone gets voted out appear as "snarky" and kind of rude, to some people. I wouldn't see those actions as trying to stroke the jury, because the very people she's basically laughing at getting voted out (i.e. Debbie) are going to be ON the jury. I think she does those things just because SHE finds it hilarious and is having a little fun out there. The tears felt real, to me.

 

19 hours ago, Stinamaia said:

Also as an add on, I think Cire saying Officer Sarah is brilliant.  She has detected that Sarah needs to feel respected and honored, and she does it in this gentle subtle way even when Sarah isn't present. And sorry -- not sure if it's Sarah or Sara.

Not only does it likely endear her to Sarah, but she's also constantly reminding everyone else that Sarah is a cop. Something that is often seen as "taboo" on these types of shows. 

[ghoulina]

15 hours ago, F. M. said:

I don't get the Brad dislike, because he doesn't bother me.  He's playing a good game, maybe a little under the radar, but you hardly hear him moan( I'm starving etc) 

I like Brad. And I think he was playing a stronger game in the beginning, but has gone under the radar since the merge. I wouldn't count him out yet. 

 

6 hours ago, eurekagirl mOo said:

 

Forgive me if this has been discussed. I just saw this Thrus. night and I'm only up to page 2.........Now their taking them OFF the island to sleep in a BED???? And, I assume, a hot shower and clean clothes. We saw the food. Now here's my gripe---Isn't this SURVIVOR? Aren't they supposed to -- I don't know-- Survive? Like ON the island? This is just so DUMB. They are so soft on these people compared to what they used to go through. I just think that's WAY to big an advantage for entire team. One person getting to sleep in a hammock and have food as a reward is all ok but seriously? Next Time On Survivor--- The teams struggle to survive at the Motel 6 while the winners go to the Four Seasons! Blech...Let's get back to REAL surviving please. 

 

My memory isn't as good as others, but I don't think the overnight reward in a nice place is necessarily new. But I do recall it seeming to happen later in the season, with smaller numbers, sometimes with loved ones?

[Oholibamah]

21 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

People keep talking about how Zeke is a scary player but he actually hasn't proven it IMO.  Sure people like him. Sure people connect with him. Sure people talk to him.  But has he actually been a scary player?  I "get" that Andrea was "scared" of him but this vote she obviously didn't need to be, and next episode could be a whole new ball game.

If I think that Andrea was acting out of anger, emotion, or vengeance it doesn't mean that I think that she's stupid or something (? ).  I don't think Zeke is some huge scary player.  Zeke didn't even scramble this episode.  If he did, with any effectiveness, he would not have been voted out.  It's the same as last season.  Somebody wants to take out Zeke, and does so at the first (?) opportunity.   If it ends up being "best" for Andrea's game, then great.  But I'm just not sure that's what she was thinking.  I guess Sandra and Russell played this way too, and it obviously worked (for Russell, and Sandra this season, only to a point.  I would have loved to see what would have happened if Sandra 'kept' Tony around, instead of getting rid of him when he annoyed her the FIRST time.)

 

I don't think being a "good player" is the same as being a "dangerous" player. The best players tend to be rational and calculated, which increases their chances of winning. And, as the numbers dwindle, it can indeed be dangerous to keep these players around lest they figure out that you're their biggest threat and take you out next. 

The most dangerous type to play with are unpredictable players: the ones that make decisions emotionally (Kass), erratically (Tai), or because they're driven by reputation (Zeke). If you can't sense what they'll do next, not only do you risk entering their crosshairs, but you can't confidently navigate the next few boots to put yourself in the best position. This was the logic behind Aubrey dumping Debbie last season: it was a risk, but it was worth it. 

Zeke's initial move against Andrea a few rounds ago was illogical given the number of people/alliances left in the game, and makes him a dangerous player. Not only is Andrea justified in being concerned, but even the others should wonder whether he'll move against them next. I'm willing to bet he would have flipped on Sarah soon after Andrea was gone. 

Andrea made the only good move available to her this round. There will likely be negative consequences, but unfortunately they were unavoidable: the risk of leaving unpredictable/dangerous players in the game increases as the numbers dwindle. 

Andrea's heated commentary re: Zeke  is probably what makes her seem petty/vengeful, but I think the urgency she used helped sell the boot. She may very well have been driven by vengeance, but that doesn't make this the incorrect move. 

17 minutes ago, Special K said:

Ahem, don't you mean "trust cluster"?  <<shudder>>

"Voting blocks" was coined by Stephen et. al in Cambodia and differs from Hannah's "trust clusters" which have even lesser defined "hierarchies". I know many feel the terms are much ado about nothing and that they've existed since the beginning, but I think using this type of terminology is a good way of maintaining loyalty and masking true alliances. 

[blackwing]

3 minutes ago, Oholibamah said:

"Voting blocks" was coined by Stephen et. al in Cambodia and differs from Hannah's "trust clusters" which have even lesser defined "hierarchies". I know many feel the terms are much ado about nothing and that they've existed since the beginning, but I think using this type of terminology is a good way of maintaining loyalty and masking true alliances. 

"Trust cluster" was just Hannah trying to make a name for herself.  I see absolutely no difference between the terms "alliance", "voting blocks", and that one.  They all mean the same thing.  People working together to try to get out the people in the other group of people working together.  The nature of alliances has definitely changed.  Like Andrea said, you used to be in one alliance and then try and get the upper hand and methodically pagong off the other side.  But now alliances are more fluid, because of the multiple swaps and merges and formation of a third tribe and then reabsorption and what not creating people who are more willing to go back to work with people they previously worked with.  I think it is good for the game, it is less predictable and more interesting.

[cooksdelight]

6 hours ago, eurekagirl mOo said:

Forgive me if this has been discussed. I just saw this Thrus. night and I'm only up to page 2.........Now their taking them OFF the island to sleep in a BED???? And, I assume, a hot shower and clean clothes. We saw the food. Now here's my gripe---Isn't this SURVIVOR? Aren't they supposed to -- I don't know-- Survive? Like ON the island? This is just so DUMB. They are so soft on these people compared to what they used to go through. I just think that's WAY to big an advantage for entire team. One person getting to sleep in a hammock and have food as a reward is all ok but seriously? Next Time On Survivor--- The teams struggle to survive at the Motel 6 while the winners go to the Four Seasons! Blech...Let's get back to REAL surviving please. 

This is my biggest pet peeve of this show. I miss the good old days, and I wish Probst would consider doing an old-style Survivor without all these luxuries.

[enoughcats]

6 hours ago, eurekagirl mOo said:

..Now their taking them OFF the island to sleep in a BED???? And, I assume, a hot shower and clean clothes. We saw the food. Now here's my gripe---Isn't this SURVIVOR? Aren't they supposed to -- I don't know-- Survive? Like ON the island?

I'm a cynic.  Full stop.

I think the producers are getting something from the all but unnamed sponsors who I think are the resorts they visited.  A bit more subtle that riding in a specific named car to a challenge and the end prize will be that car for a one year lease and we hear about that every week, eh Heidi?  

Who among us wouldn't like to go to that resort?  We know Zeke would because in his (?) additional talking head he dropped the name of the resort as if he were prompted or at least had it written on  a cue card beside the camera and sound man.  

Nobody's going to pay to sleep on a corncob filled mattress under a scruffy tent.  A $$$ resort?  give away some freebies for a massive advertising gift.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Oholibamah said:

The most dangerous type to play with are unpredictable players: the ones that make decisions emotionally (Kass), erratically (Tai), or because they're driven by reputation (Zeke).

Andrea's heated commentary re: Zeke  is probably what makes her seem petty/vengeful, but I think the urgency she used helped sell the boot. She may very well have been driven by vengeance, but that doesn't make this the incorrect move. 

Well, my argument wasn't that Andrea made the incorrect move.  It was that she was somewhat driven by vengeance.  LOL

What does this mean, the "reputation" /Zeke comment?  I'd like you to expand on it; sounds interesting but not sure what it means?   I know what you mean about the seemingly 'erratic' players and it's something interesting to think about.

I've (and I'm sure everyone else) noticed something in these later seasons.  The players are so terrified to play it safe now, i.e. the Richard Hatch way, because they all want to be seen as making big moves for their Final Tribal Council resume.  It's just interesting.  "Getting to the end" with a strong alliance no longer seems to the dominant motivating force anymore - just off the top of my head, Season 19 Samoa was a great example of when this was still very popular, and effective, with the Foa Foa Four.  Or the Aitu Four, in Season 13.  It works and it's damn effective.  But I guess at a certain point, this no longer became "admirable" to veteran Survivor players (or maybe even to Superfans like in the Millennial season), and now to win the season you have to be seen as making big moves or something, I don't know.  Just an interesting observation.  

Or maybe, with all the repeat players, players just admire each other too much / and/or are scared of each other too much and/or are always second-guessing/over-analyzing each other.  So a tight, "innocent/pure" alliance of four seems impossible.  No one trusts one another anymore - not these veterans who have watched one another on TV/partied with each other, etc.  Nobody knows poker tells because there's just too much information.  Again, Sandra saw how "erratic" Tony was acting, didn't trust him, and made sure he got the boot.  But the idea floating around of a Winner's Circle of Sandra, Tony, and J.T. constantly protecting each other would have been fascinating.  Tony probably would have turned at some point, but Tony and J.T. would have probably also underestimated Sandra (her major strength) and maybe Sandra would have won again ;)

This is probably why players like Sarah make some viewers nervous; Sarah and possibly Zeke strike some viewers as players who want to make big moves for the sake of it (Kass is very much like this) but the moves don't necessarily seem understandable.  I don't think this is how to describe Tai.  Tai is just always trying to hang on anyway he can.  I don't think he cares about making big moves to pad his resume.  I'm not sure he thinks this way.  Tai and Michaela are two of my favourites, but they are not seeing the game the way I or maybe other typical viewers see it - you need to win, after all.  You need to sway a jury.  They are 'surviving', they are outlasting other players, but do they know how to win?  Are they consciously thinking about it?  Maybe Tai is counting on an idea of the jury liking him more than who he stands with at the end - feeling more of an emotional connection to him.  Not sure what Michaela is thinking... 

Edited May 5, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[NeverLate]

41 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

This is my biggest pet peeve of this show. I miss the good old days, and I wish Probst would consider doing an old-style Survivor without all these luxuries.

They are losing too much weight. Ozzy wasn't on that long, and lost  nearly 17 pounds. I don't need to see walking skeletons,

Quote

Well, my argument wasn't that Andrea made the incorrect move.  It was that she was somewhat driven by vengeance.  LOL

Exactly! 

[cooksdelight]

34 minutes ago, F. M. said:

They are losing too much weight. Ozzy wasn't on that long, and lost  nearly 17 pounds. I don't need to see walking skeletons,

Debbie lost a pound a a half, a few have gained weight. 

[peachmangosteen]

21 hours ago, Stinamaia said:

Also as an add on, I think Cire saying Officer Sarah is brilliant.  She has detected that Sarah needs to feel respected and honored, and she does it in this gentle subtle way even when Sarah isn't present.

I have thought of Cirie as overrated since her second appearance, but the Officer Sarah thing is imo brilliant and it reminds me of just how good Cirie is. 

20 hours ago, Eolivet said:

(The only recent woman winner's edit was They Underestimate Me. If I start seeing a woman with that edit, maybe I'll start to get hopeful.)

Andrea is kinda getting a bit of a "They Underestimate Me" thing in that she has been the reason for her team winning at least 2 different challenges and yet she got no in show credit for it. Hell, in this ep the credit was given to someone else!

56 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I don't think this is how to describe Tai.  Tai is just always trying to hang on anyway he can.  I don't think he cares about making big moves to pad his resume.  I'm not sure he thinks this way.  Tai and Michaela are two of my favourites, but they are not seeing the game the way I or maybe other typical viewers see it - you need to win, after all.  You need to sway a jury.  They are 'surviving', they are outlasting other players, but do they know how to win?  Are they consciously thinking about it?  Maybe Tai is counting on an idea of the jury liking him more than who he stands with at the end - feeling more of an emotional connection to him.  Not sure what Michaela is thinking... 

I completely agree. I don't think Tai even thinks about how he can win so much as he just thinks about how he can get to the end. And with Michaela I don't think she thinks about 'the game' that much at all, she's just trying to win everything. I don't think either of them would ever have a shot in hell of winning this game, but I like them both. They're interesting.

I remember two things I forgot to mention in my initial post about this ep. One was when someone, I think it might have been Sarah, commented on how tight Andrea and Aubry are, which I found interesting. We haven't seen that at all. And I find it strange. Hell they were never even on the same tribe until merge, so I find it interesting that they've grown so close. I wonder why? I'd like to see more of them. But also, maybe Sarah (or whoever said it) is wrong and they really aren't that close lol.

The other thing was that Troyzan gave us another classic Troyzan face in this ep. I can't remember exactly when it was but it was hilarious. I'll rewatch the ep later and try to find it.

[NeverLate]

Quote

I completely agree. I don't think Tai even thinks about how he can win so much as he just thinks about how he can get to the end.

Hmm, well that's not a player I want to see win (.jmho)

1 hour ago, cooksdelight said:

Debbie lost a pound a a half, a few have gained weight. 

Very few. She had nothing to lose, the bigger the person, the more they lose. But honestly, I think they lose enough weight

[Oholibamah]

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Well, my argument wasn't that Andrea made the incorrect move.  It was that she was somewhat driven by vengeance.  LOL

What does this mean, the "reputation" /Zeke comment?  I'd like you to expand on it; sounds interesting but not sure what it means?   I know what you mean about the seemingly 'erratic' players and it's something interesting to think about.

I've (and I'm sure everyone else) noticed something in these later seasons.  The players are so terrified to play it safe now, i.e. the Richard Hatch way, because they all want to be seen as making big moves for their Final Tribal Council resume.  It's just interesting.  "Getting to the end" with a strong alliance no longer seems to the dominant motivating force anymore - just off the top of my head, Season 19 Samoa was a great example of when this was still very popular, and effective, with the Foa Foa Four.  Or the Aitu Four, in Season 13.  It works and it's damn effective.  But I guess at a certain point, this no longer became "admirable" to veteran Survivor players (or maybe even to Superfans like in the Millennial season), and now to win the season you have to be seen as making big moves or something, I don't know.  Just an interesting observation.  

Or maybe, with all the repeat players, players just admire each other too much / and/or are scared of each other too much and/or are always second-guessing/over-analyzing each other.  So a tight, "innocent/pure" alliance of four seems impossible.  No one trusts one another anymore - not these veterans who have watched one another on TV/partied with each other, etc.  Nobody knows poker tells because there's just too much information.  Again, Sandra saw how "erratic" Tony was acting, didn't trust him, and made sure he got the boot.  But the idea floating around of a Winner's Circle of Sandra, Tony, and J.T. constantly protecting each other would have been fascinating.  Tony probably would have turned at some point, but Tony and J.T. would have probably also underestimated Sandra (her major strength) and maybe Sandra would have won again ;)

 

 

Fair enough re: Andrea. I quoted your post specifically, but it was also a build-up of other posts questioning her choices. I think her willingness to work with Zeke last week shows she didn't have tunnel-vision about getting revenge, and wasn't so vengeful that she jumped the gun. 

What I meant by playing for reputation could be playing to the jury, which your analysis of Tai references: yes you need to build a resume, but you also have to get to the finals. Players who make "big moves" for the sake of it, like Zeke, are hard to predict, because they may be making moves to show off rather than advance themselves  

It can also get meta, where they're playing to the audience, which I think Zeke is also guilty of. As a superfan, he seems aware of wanting to be perceived as a strategist who makes bold moves, resulting in erratic/unpredictable, and thus ill-informed moves. 

One of my favorite scenes from the show was Penner talking Lisa into flipping on Abi/Pete by referencing what the audience would want to see. I suspect players think this way far more often than we see.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Oholibamah

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

Debbie lost a pound a a half, a few have gained weight. 

I don't think that should count because Debbie lost that weight from her head and only because she was such an incredible fathead to begin with.

j/k

[Jobiska]

4 hours ago, F. M. said:

Very few. She had nothing to lose, the bigger the person, the more they lose. But honestly, I think they lose enough weight

I agree.  They are starting to look much thinner, which to me is a better gauge than the specific numbers on the scales post elimination.  Very-tall Sierra looks like a stick insect.  Troyzan's trunks were falling off.  Etc.

They are talking about being hungry, crying because they are hungry (or their hunger makes them more apt to lose control over other emotional prompts).  

I never want to see anyone pulling out handfuls of hair that they are losing due to malnutrition (Elizabeth Filarski whatever her married name is).  I never want to read interviews or articles that they are hoarding food at home and have developed weird obsessions with food (I think that was Yul, perhaps among others).   That horrifies me.  

To change the topic completely, I liked how the recap's section titles seem to all be anagrams of the stupid puzzle answer.  

[NeverLate]

3 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I don't think that should count because Debbie lost that weight from her head and only because she was such an incredible fathead to begin with.

j/k

But hilarious!