S03.E16: Heroes Rise: These Delicate and Dark Obsessions

[formerlyfreedom]

The Court of Owls devises a new plan regarding the future of Gotham, as Gordon uncovers information about his father and uncle's past, connecting him back to the organization. Meanwhile, Bruce wakes up in the temple and learns of the Shaman's wish for him.

 

[Chaos Theory]

Who'd have guessed that Penguin and Ivy would make such a fun pair?  I always liked Penguin and Nygma but now I am throughly enjoying Penguin and Ivy.  Sing it Penguin:  R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

Any scene with Barbara will always be among my favorites.  Love how she has taken full control of the underworld.  Her scene at the dock was great as well.

Hey an episode that featured a large number of its female cast so of course it was among my favorite episodes.  Even snarky snarly Lee was fun and she made Jim almost bareable.

The rest of the episode he was his annoying self.

The Bruce stuff was fairly interesting.  

Edited May 2, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Lantern7]

Welcome to Gotham, whet the batshit insanity never ends! Even without the full cast, there's still enough fun for everybody.

Awwwwww . . . Oswald has a new friend in ivy. Natch, she's the tween in the adult body with plant-based mojo, but you gotta start somewhere. No big loss in poor man's Butch Gabe and his friends.

Have we ever seen Jim happy? And except for Harvey, is anybody happy to see Jim? Everywhere he goes, people want him to die for starters. I know he's not that sympathetic, but it's gotta wear on a guy.

Is the old man supposed to be anybody in particular? In other news . . . it's been almost three years, and Bruce has grown. Does being orphaned lead to spurts?

I know the owl masks from the comics would be problematic to wear, but I don't think I like the alternative. Kept waiting for the orgy once the meeting was adjourned.

[Danielg342]

I felt like much of this was just obvious filler, though bits and pieces of it were mildly entertaining. Barbara was her usual entertaining self, and Penguin and Ivy showed some unexpected chemistry together. Oh, and Bruce getting his butt kicked in Bullet Time was pretty cool.

Still, this kind of didn't really move the story much.

The Bullock Meter

He actually had a significant role in the episode, and this very much felt like a vintage Bullock performance, as he was on the ball and in tune with just about everything. Donal Logue's performance was a bit understated and Bullock still felt very much as a participant in the story than as a contributor, but Bullock was still entertaining tonight.

[HoodlumSheep]

Rip Gabe and Uncle Frank

Liked:

• The Penguin/ivy stuff was great
• This is probably the first episode i liked new older ivy in. She was pretty great.
• Lots of murder this week
• Couldn't believe Gabe was a traitor!
• The Bruce stuff was the best stuff along with the PenguinIvy duo. Wish we could have gotten more of it
• Falcone is tired of you crashing his house, Jim. Thought it was pretty obvious Falcone wasn't the true culprit
• New tracks?????? I'm pretty sure there were a couple new tracks this episode. I didn't recognize some like when Bruce was running through the hallway. I really wish they'd release an OST for this show
• Harvey continues to be friendship goals; also, the Irish Curse! Beware!
• The Talons are back!!! I still miss the first one, though. This one doesn't seem as cool, even if he beheaded a dude.
• Queen Babs. That is all.

The bad:

• I thought the camera work wasn't very good in at least the first half of this episode. I know this is Ben's first directed episode, and I'm not sure how much of a say he has over the camera work, but it could have been better imo.
• The court of owls aren't gonna believe Jim killed his uncle. It's a shot to the temple, which would pretty much tip off the Court that Jim didn't kill him. ??? Either it's a trap, or I will have lost all faith in the court of owls.

Edited May 2, 2017 by HoodlumSheep

[Spartan Girl]

Is the Shaman Ras al'Ghul?

Penguin and Ivy were fun, but the episode didn't really pick up until Barbara Queen showed up.

Lee, seriously, fuck off. I'm sick of her playing the grieving widow, acting like she wasn't trolling her ex the whole time. You want to be with your dead husband so bad? Dig a hole and jump in.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Spartan Girl

[The Wild Sow]

25 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Is the Shaman Ras al'Ghul?

I think so.  Is the actor Alexander Siddig (made up to look much older than his actual age)?  I'll have to check the credits again as it's not in IMDB yet.

[Pyralis]

I looked him up. It's Raylen Givens' horrible dad - already  I don't trust him.

[Kostgard]

I liked Oswald/Ivy a lot more than I thought I would (I actually liked Ivy a lot more than I have in the past). And I think it will actually be interesting to see Oswald interacting with someone who (probably) isn't just barely tolerating the situation and may bolt at any time (a la Butch), and someone who is a lot more straight forward and way less complicated than Ed (and without all the complicated feelings that came with Ed). And it was interesting to see him with someone who isn't really interested in putting up with his histrionics/abuse. 

But Gabe! I always liked how Gabe seemed forever loyal to Oswald. But it turns out he never really did respect him, and he, like Butch, didn't enjoy watching his loyalty be rewarded with the opportunity to watch Ed Nygma slip in and become Oswald's right hand man without putting in the time. Sad ending to the character - if it is the end. He had some weird plant stuff growing on his head...

As for Bruce, is there a law in the DC universe that says we must watch Bruce Wayne's parents die a minimum of one billion times? Guys, we get it. Though I suppose it is interesting that in the vision, the assassin looked a lot like Barnes. 

Jim's storyline still feels like wheel-spinning. Though I guess now that he's joining the council, things might start moving for him. 

[immortalfrieza]

4 hours ago, HoodlumSheep said:

 

• The court of owls aren't gonna believe Jim killed his uncle. It's a shot to the temple, which would pretty much tip off the Court that Jim didn't kill him. ???

What's so hard to believe about that? Jim puts his gun to Frank's temple, BOOM! dead. Just because the temple is a frequent place for self inflicted gunshots doesn't mean somebody else can't shoot the exact same spot. Where Frank got shot would be the least of the clues though, like the fact that Frank shot himself with his own gun instead of swiping one of Jim's. What does make the Court of Owls look stupid is them actually believing a cop like Jim Gordon who is well known to be a complete boy scout would want to work with them for 5 seconds without trying to bring them down, or that actually kill his uncle if he didn't have to and especially in the manner of an execution. It's like they know absolutely nothing about the guy they're scouting. Oh, and their masks look ridiculous, not the least bit intimidating whatsoever. Still, if their plan actually is to raze Gotham to the ground that's a more sensible approach than trying to actually redeem the completely hopeless city.

As long as Bruce's story leads to him taking several levels in badass I'm okay with it, but if he just gets brainwashed or something it'll be a complete waste.

If Ivy wants Oswald to be nice to her, her perfume could have made him do it, there's no reason for her to put up with his crap if she actually cares that he is nice to her. I guess she doesn't have any of those long range mind control perfumes yet, I'm sure she's working on it.

[Dame sans merci]

5 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

If Ivy wants Oswald to be nice to her, her perfume could have made him do it, there's no reason for her to put up with his crap if she actually cares that he is nice to her. I guess she doesn't have any of those long range mind control perfumes yet, I'm sure she's working on it.

I got the impression she just wanted him to genuinely be her friend, rather than resort to manipulation. Which is kinda...unexpected for Gotham. Oswald is used to people working with agendas, or for money, rather than because they want to hang out with him.

I laughed out loud when he gave him that little bop on the nose. Happy for Maggie Geha she's finally getting some decent material.

[luna1122]

Yeah, I thought Arlo Givens was Ras al'Ghul, tho he seems too old to be that character, but Wikipedia says Alexander Siddig will be Ra's al Ghul, so I don't know who Arlo is. Sensei, Ra's al Ghul's dad? At any rate, I never trust him either.

Love Ivy and Oswald.

Lee is annoying AF.

[Dobian]

Yay, Bruce is getting the monk training that will get him on his way to becoming Batman.

Ivy and Penguin really play well off each other, and I always love it when they get Babs in on the action.

Still far and away the most fun show in this genre.  It has so many colorful and well-acted characters they have to leave some out each week with no drop in quality.

[Biggie B]

Quote

Wikipedia says Alexander Siddig will be Ra's al Ghul,

The actor from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine? Too lazy to look it up.

Such a violent episode - the guy who was beheaded, Penguin killing Gabe with a gardening tool, and then Jim's uncle killing himself - yeesh! So much blood!

Amazing to see how extremely small and young Bruce was when shown with his parents.

I was hoping to see interaction between Fake Bruce and Alfred - is Alfred suspicious of him? Last week, it seemed that way, when Fake Bruce said he'd eat whatever it was Alfred was making at that moment (chicken pot pie?). Alfred got a weird look on his face, which made me think Real Bruce doesn't like that particular dish, so that response raised a red flag. I hope Alfred figures it out ASAP, which I think he will, if he hasn't already.

[Dobian]

10 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

The actor from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine? Too lazy to look it up.

Yes, Bashir.  And more recently on Game of Thrones.

[Biggie B]

Thanks, Dobian. I don't watch GOT, but that's nice to know he is/was on that as well! He was unrecognizable (at least, to me) here on Gotham.

[paigow]

12 hours ago, Pyralis said:

I looked him up. It's Raylen Givens' horrible dad - already  I don't trust him.

He is obviously Ras Ar-Lo

[Winter Rose]

I haven't liked the new Ivy so far but I guess it was the material because the Ivy/Oswald scenes were my favorite this week. Nice to see Oswald getting back on form.

I feel like Jim/his uncle/the Court of Owls back-and-forth would be interesting if I had any interest in Jim as a character. I also think the writers have no idea what to do with Lee anymore.

I was wondering if the Shaman was Ra's al Ghul too but nevertheless, if it leads to Bruce getting closer to becoming Batman, and not just a means to manipulate him, then I'm good.

Babs was a delight.

[Kostgard]

3 hours ago, Blackcanary said:

I got the impression she just wanted him to genuinely be her friend, rather than resort to manipulation. Which is kinda...unexpected for Gotham. Oswald is used to people working with agendas, or for money, rather than because they want to hang out with him.

I laughed out loud when he gave him that little bop on the nose. Happy for Maggie Geha she's finally getting some decent material.

That's what I thought too - or at the very least Ivy isn't yet sophisticated enough to start long-game manipulating people. But she seemed pretty clearly lonely and was delighted to have someone else around to make soup for and to boop on the nose. No doubt she wants to move up in the world and sees Oswald as a way to do that, but I think at least for now she approaches the relationship the way she does her relationship with Selina - just "Hey! Let's hang out and help each other!" That is pretty darn refreshing for Gotham, and no doubt for Oswald, he was mostly confused that all she wanted was for him to be nice to her and he didn't have to beg and plead and promise her things in order to get her cooperation.

I am a bit confused, though, about how she managed to drag his half-dead waterlogged body all the way back to that house that doesn't look like it is anywhere near the river when she doesn't appear to have a car.

1 hour ago, Biggie B said:

Thanks, Dobian. I don't watch GOT, but that's nice to know he is/was on that as well! He was unrecognizable (at least, to me) here on Gotham.

The actor playing the monk was actually Raymond J. Barry, not Bashir (probably why you didn't recognize him). I'm guessing the monk is either someone else on Team Ra's and Ra's will reveal himself later, or he's somehow Ra's in disguise. 

[cali1981]

Gotham keeps getting darker and darker.  Gotta love it.  Erin Richards continues to kill it as bat shit crazy Barbara.  She knows how to take her performance right to edge of being loony and funny without becoming too ridiculous.  This episode was Ben McKenzie's directorial debut and, all in all, he did a fine job.

[Kathemy]

2 hours ago, Biggie B said:

Thanks, Dobian. I don't watch GOT, but that's nice to know he is/was on that as well! He was unrecognizable (at least, to me) here on Gotham.

That's because he hasn't appeared yet.

[HoodlumSheep]

10 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

What's so hard to believe about that? Jim puts his gun to Frank's temple, BOOM! dead. Just because the temple is a frequent place for self inflicted gunshots doesn't mean somebody else can't shoot the exact same spot. Where Frank got shot would be the least of the clues though, like the fact that Frank shot himself with his own gun instead of swiping one of Jim's. What does make the Court of Owls look stupid is them actually believing a cop like Jim Gordon who is well known to be a complete boy scout would want to work with them for 5 seconds without trying to bring them down, or that actually kill his uncle if he didn't have to and especially in the manner of an execution. It's like they know absolutely nothing about the guy they're scouting. Oh, and their masks look ridiculous, not the least bit intimidating whatsoever. 

But that's what I mean (and should have written i guess) i'm not trying to say that kind of headshot doesn't happen, but in the case that this involves Jim Gordon and his uncle? The fact that they should know that Jim isn't the kind of person to just slay his uncle (or go for that kind of shot) pretty much points straight to a self-inflicted wound imo. So either the Owls have a trap waiting or their IQs have tanked. Hopefully it's the former.

 Also, i still think the actor playing Uncle Frank was horrible. He read his lines. Even when he gave his last speech to Jim it basically lacked all emotion. I'm not gonna miss him.

This was also the first Jim/Falcone scene that I didn't really care for. Their scenes together are becoming more and more copy and paste. Jim busts into Falcone's house and accuses him of or about something, Falcone grumpily clues him in or Jim figures something out, then Jim hauls it outta there. I also thought the scene wasn't well shot. I knew whay they were going for with those closeups, but it came off as awkward. I giggled when they shot to a closeup of Jim's face. He was trting to look tough staring down Falcone, but it didn't work.

[immortalfrieza]

5 minutes ago, HoodlumSheep said:

But that's what I mean (and should have written i guess) i'm not trying to say that kind of headshot doesn't happen, but in the case that this involves Jim Gordon and his uncle? The fact that they should know that Jim isn't the kind of person to just slay his uncle (or go for that kind of shot) pretty much points straight to a self-inflicted wound imo. So either the Owls have a trap waiting or their IQs have tanked. Hopefully it's the former.

This is inching into speculation territory but, I'm pretty sure the Court is trying to manipulate Jim, they're probably going for "infiltrates the bad guys but discovers that he likes it and/or does something that makes him think he's irredeemable" or something like that. Frank and that one woman were talking about trying to get him on their side since Frank first appeared, which they wouldn't even be considering if they actually knew anything about Jim unless they thought they could actually turn him.

Though, that's smarter writing than I expect out of this show, so...

[Traveller519]

The Bruce stuff really dragged down this episode in my opinion. The whole Court of Owls stuff is tedious to begin with, and now we're treading into the whole plot of Batman Begins. Give me more Gotham Zany-ness, and less Brooding Bat Bruce. Though I loved Bullock's reaction to Jim educating him on the Court of Owls. "They control everything in Gotham? Real Bang-up Job they're doing" (paraphrasing)

Everything Ivy/Penguin was great though. I loved Gabe's coldness when under the spell of the perfume. Loyal out of fear not respect. That's tough for Penguin to hear. While he publicly courts the fear, I think deep down he wants the respect. Ivy was a delight, and I'm glad we don't have to worry about any sort of sexual tension between them, as I think Penguin still really loves Ed, even if that passion is his motivation to kill him.

I would happily be a pawn in Bab's underworld. She is so entertaining, even in her abuse.

[thuganomics85]

Oswald and Ivy!  Now, there is a duo I'm surprisingly enjoying.  Enjoying the banter and interactions between the two.  Maggie Geha is finally giving something significant to do, and, as always, no one can nail down a frustrated reaction like Robin Lord Taylor.  But I like how there alliance has come down to them almost against the world, since they don't have any other allies other themselves.  Well, and except the freaks from Indian Hill that Ivy is apparently going to introduce him to.  That should be fun!

Barbara seems to thriving in her new role and is a blast to watch.  I just hope she is prepared for the shit to hit the fan, with both the Court of Owls and Oswald all getting ready to jump in the game.

I'm guessing Raymond J. Berry's character is a part of the League of Assassins, but now Ra's, since that is apparently suppose to be Alexander Siddig.  But I have to imagine his role will be significant somehow, since he's the first one to "train" Bruce.

Christ, Lee.  Even Carmen is more civil to Jim (barely), and he knew Marlo way more then you did.

Basically, the Court of Owls has a weapon that will "cleanse" Gotham, so Frank kills himself, and Jim will know go undercover to try and find out.  Seems like a very ill-thought plan, but whatever.  And with Frank being played by James Remar, I just wonder if he's going to pop up in Jim's head every now and then, like he use to do on Dexter.

Bullock got some good lines at least.

[Kostgard]

2 hours ago, Traveller519 said:

 

Everything Ivy/Penguin was great though. I loved Gabe's coldness when under the spell of the perfume. Loyal out of fear not respect. That's tough for Penguin to hear. While he publicly courts the fear, I think deep down he wants the respect. Ivy was a delight, and I'm glad we don't have to worry about any sort of sexual tension between them, as I think Penguin still really loves Ed, even if that passion is his motivation to kill him.

 

Oswald is absolutely looking for the respect. Despite the "Love Stinks" mantra he and Ed (and really, most of the others) have, they are all looking for love and acceptance. It's what humanizes these insane people who will kill someone at the drop of a hat. We even saw that with Ivy, who was hurt when she discovered that Oswald didn't exactly consider her a friend.

And yes, thank goodness for the lack of complications/sexual tension between those two. Aside from the creepiness of it being a grown man with someone who is still mentally a child, Oswald doesn't need another relationship on this show with those emotional entanglements (especially, as pointed out, things with Ed are probably far from resolved) and it's just kinda nice to see a relationship where you don't have to wonder when/if one of them is going to stab the other in the back. I'm sure Ivy will eventually move on and join up with the Sirens, but that at least probably won't happen this season.

But on the "less than great side" - I was thinking about the whole Court of Owls things and the fact that I don't find them all that scary, when it occurred to me that when they decided to pin Jim's dad's death on a drunk driver, they managed to pick a patsy who is unable to drink. That is...really sloppy. And makes them less threatening. Makes me wish that instead Lee somehow found out that the toxicology results were faked and the driver wasn't actually drunk rather than discovered that he physically couldn't have been drunk and still been alive enough to drive the car.

[Perfect Xero]

They've just ruined Lee at this point, I enjoyed her last season, but I let out an audible groan when she showed up in the graveyard at the grave of the husband she didn't even seem to like all that much.

[Danielg342]

4 hours ago, Traveller519 said:

Though I loved Bullock's reaction to Jim educating him on the Court of Owls. "They control everything in Gotham? Real Bang-up Job they're doing" (paraphrasing)

I loved that line.

Made me think- the Court of Owls referred to Gotham very ominously, as if it was the only important place in the world. Now, I don't doubt that Gotham is a significant city, if not one on a global scale, but, in this show at least, Gotham City never felt anything more than your rudimentary U.S. metropolis. It's certainly not the American capital, and doesn't even seem to be a capital of its own state or province.

So why the Court cares so much about controlling Gotham, I will never know. It feels like a criminal organization that is so obsessed with controlling Pittsburgh- why do it?

[Gobi]

Am I the only one to think that the weapon that will destroy Gotham is Batman?

[jhlipton]

19 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

if their plan actually is to raze Gotham to the ground that's a more sensible approach than trying to actually redeem the completely hopeless city.

Gotham is filled with crime and violence!  What should we do????

Invest in streetlights so it's not dark every damn place you go?  Get a real police force and train them to both walk the blocks and deal with the craziness that is Gotham?  Stop letting the city that you supposedly "rule" be run by the Mafia or lunatics?

Nah, let's destroy it instead!!! 

Gee, I wonder why we keep having the same problems!!!
 

BTW, the Court of Owls didn't decide to destroy the city, just a few "high-ranking members".  So, what, the "high-ranking members" are going to be impeached at the next board meeting?  If not, then the whole Court of Owls decided, even if by proxy.

[Danielg342]

4 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Gotham is filled with crime and violence!  What should we do????

They could do nothing. Gotham is doing a great job of destroying itself.

[jhlipton]

6 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

They could do nothing. Gotham is doing a great job of destroying itself.

Because they do nothing.  They don't take the steps that are proven to reduce crime and violence; they sit back and let the city rot; then like God and the Flood, they say "OK, that's enough. Time to start over." without fixing any of the problems!

 

This whole "they rule the city, you just don't know it" is patently absurd when we saw Falcone and Penguin do any damn thing they wanted without the slightest hoot from the Court of Owls.  Where were these "rulers" when Jerome was having his Carnival of Murder?  It may be part of the comics, but that doesn't mean it makes sense.

[Cigale]

Didn't like the Ivy actress. Looked liked she was channeling/copying Barbara.  Hope she can make her character her own.  

[Kathemy]

Doux Reviews: These Delicate And Dark Obsessions

Done.

[immortalfrieza]

9 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Because they do nothing.  They don't take the steps that are proven to reduce crime and violence; they sit back and let the city rot; then like God and the Flood, they say "OK, that's enough. Time to start over." without fixing any of the problems!

You mistake "do nothing" for "can do nothing," Gotham City is already dead beyond any hope of redemption at this point. If the writers care to be realistic about the hole they have dug it into, Gotham is far beyond the point where ANYTHING anyone could possibly do to "fix" it would work. All officials and law enforcement on every level are utterly corrupt and/or incompetent, the mob runs the city, criminals and other threats are at a level of crazy and ruthlessness way beyond even a completely clean and competent police force's ability to do anything about. Not even a guy in a Bat suit running around could possibly turn things around at this point, destroying Gotham and starting over is the only remotely realistic option left to take, but not the one that the protagonists will allow to happen.

Edited May 3, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[Ailianna]

12 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I loved that line.

Made me think- the Court of Owls referred to Gotham very ominously, as if it was the only important place in the world. Now, I don't doubt that Gotham is a significant city, if not one on a global scale, but, in this show at least, Gotham City never felt anything more than your rudimentary U.S. metropolis. It's certainly not the American capital, and doesn't even seem to be a capital of its own state or province.

So why the Court cares so much about controlling Gotham, I will never know. It feels like a criminal organization that is so obsessed with controlling Pittsburgh- why do it?

Except Gotham isn't Pittsburgh--it's NYC. Which isn't a capital of anything, but is still one of the most important cities in the world.

[darkestboy]

I really enjoyed this one.

Whoever came up with the idea of having Oswald and Ivy as best friends deserves a raise to be honest. Seeing the two of them play off each, it totally works.

Shame Gabe was another person that didn't respect Oswald but at least Ivy is going to help him get an army of freaks though.

Barbara as the underworld queen suits her to the ground but it might be a short lived thing for her too.

The Gordon/Frank scenes and Bruce's visions stuff weren't as interesting compared to everything else though.

Give Leslie something interesting to do already, 8/10

[Danielg342]

2 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Except Gotham isn't Pittsburgh--it's NYC. Which isn't a capital of anything, but is still one of the most important cities in the world.

NYC may be nicknamed "Gotham" but in this universe, it has yet to be established that Gotham and NYC are truly one in the same.

In fact, in the comics, Gotham is primarily in New Jersey, near Delaware across from Delaware Bay. I'm not sure if this show is using that geography for sure.

In any case, my point is that I have yet to see any evidence that Gotham is at all deserving of special importance, aside from the fact it's the setting of this show. It could be NYC, but it could also be Pittsburgh. Or Cleveland or Milwaukee or Edmonton, etc.

[paigow]

10 hours ago, sisterspoon said:

Didn't like the Ivy actress. Looked liked she was channeling/copying Barbara.  Hope she can make her character her own.  

Their characters were roommates for awhile - Babs is the only adult female role model that Ivy knows- so a lot of mimicry is unsurprising. 

[Perfect Xero]

5 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

NYC may be nicknamed "Gotham" but in this universe, it has yet to be established that Gotham and NYC are truly one in the same.

In fact, in the comics, Gotham is primarily in New Jersey, near Delaware across from Delaware Bay. I'm not sure if this show is using that geography for sure.

In any case, my point is that I have yet to see any evidence that Gotham is at all deserving of special importance, aside from the fact it's the setting of this show. It could be NYC, but it could also be Pittsburgh. Or Cleveland or Milwaukee or Edmonton, etc.

Gotham isn't literally New York, but it's usually supposed to be on the level of a NYC or Chicago, in terms of being a major center of world trade and transportation.

Even if it's 'just' a large US city, there's probably a lot of money to be made in running a city into the ground to profit. Destroying it, getting federal and international aid and charity money for your business to be the ones to rebuild it and starting the process all over again.

[paigow]

Gotham is a magical transportation hub....only hours from Not!Tibet or Not!MiddleEasternDesertPrison

[Danielg342]

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

Gotham isn't literally New York, but it's usually supposed to be on the level of a NYC or Chicago, in terms of being a major center of world trade and transportation.

Even if it's 'just' a large US city, there's probably a lot of money to be made in running a city into the ground to profit. Destroying it, getting federal and international aid and charity money for your business to be the ones to rebuild it and starting the process all over again.

That does make sense, although I would have liked it if the Court mentioned it as the method to their madness. It seemed like the show thought ominously declaring "Gotham must fall!" would be shocking enough, when all I've seen in this show is a cesspool that I'm not sure there would be many who'd want to live in, let alone control.

As for the geography, Chicago (in "Penguin's Umbrella") and a vague reference to "the South" (done twice, I think) are the only geographical points mentioned in the show. There may have been another reference early in S1 as when Penguin was walking towards the house he'd eventually stay at, he passed a signpost that said he was eight miles outside of Gotham. I'm not sure if that signpost mentioned any other places. It's probably likely that Gotham is a major centre- Bruce Wayne and Wayne Enterprises are famed in-show, and the city never seems to be at a loss for rich people- but, if so, I wonder why the American military (if Gotham is American, though I suspect that's the case) hasn't bothered to come in and reestablish order at all.

[jhlipton]

11 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

You mistake "do nothing" for "can do nothing," Gotham City is already dead beyond any hope of redemption at this point.

No one has ever tried!  Real Life example:  Los Angeles 25 years ago and Los Angeles now.  A reformed police department made a huge difference.  Implementing Campaign Zero would make even more.  Let the citizens take back their city. It might take a while and a lot of bucks but if you destroy Gotham but leave the underlying problems... well, you know the definition of insanity, right?

[Perfect Xero]

44 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

No one has ever tried!  Real Life example:  Los Angeles 25 years ago and Los Angeles now.  A reformed police department made a huge difference.  Implementing Campaign Zero would make even more.  Let the citizens take back their city. It might take a while and a lot of bucks but if you destroy Gotham but leave the underlying problems... well, you know the definition of insanity, right?

I alluded to this in my other post, but the existence of the Court actually explains why something like that hasn't been done. The most simple answer is that they don't want Gotham to be better or safer for average people. They want it to be a corrupt cesspool that they can exploit for profits and vices as long as they have their rich enclaves and suburbs where the worst of the city doesn't effect them.

[NorthstarATL]

I was thinking that the reason why Ivy/Oswald works so well is that she IS a child, and he is emotionally still a child. They're pretty much on the same level, though I don't think he quite "gets" what's up with her yet. I actually would be interested in seeing her interact with Barbara, who has had her own transformation since last they met. It still amazes me that I once hated the character's scenes!

  So that's Ras, huh? I still recall when he and Bruce met in the Batcave when he had orchestrated the kidnappings of Robin and Talia to test the Detective as a suitable heir. This Ancient One works too, I guess.

 Don't give a hoot about the Court. They were cool for a minute.

[immortalfrieza]

5 hours ago, jhlipton said:

No one has ever tried!  Real Life example:  Los Angeles 25 years ago and Los Angeles now.  A reformed police department made a huge difference.  Implementing Campaign Zero would make even more.  Let the citizens take back their city.

Gotham City in most depictions is a irredeemable hell hole that makes any real world city outside of a constant war zone look like a crime free utopia in comparison. Gordon and anybody else he could rally behind him has been trying to fix Gotham for 3 years now and it's got him nowhere, and everybody else is either too scared, too apathetic, too incompetent, or benefiting off of Gotham staying the way it is too much to even want to do anything about it even if they could for anyone's efforts to fix Gotham to matter. Even if they did, it would be like putting a band-aid over a limb amputation, everything they could try to do is not going to accomplish anything. You're assuming that anyone besides Gordon and a select few other nobodies like him even WANT to try to fix Gotham, but that's not the case. You mentioned the definition of insanity, well, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is actually better than what you think should be done, it's trying get have different things get down which probably won't and even if they did it's not going to get anywhere if not make things worse. Any measures they could possibly take to fix Gotham City either can't even be implemented in the first place or would be utterly ineffective because of the very same problems that plague Gotham in the first place. Gotham is in a self perpetuating cycle of corruption, crime, and chaos which have perfectly arranged itself through a chain of events both guided by human hands and random long before this series ever began to ensure that any and all methods to actually change that are completely futile and it will only keep getting worse.

Quote

It might take a while and a lot of bucks but if you destroy Gotham but leave the underlying problems... well, you know the definition of insanity, right?

You're right that it's pointless if the Court of Owls doesn't actually deal with the problems whatever the Court of Owl's plan is, but the underlying problems won't exist anymore if they destroy Gotham City. If it's not complete destruction of Gotham and building the whole city up again from scratch, it's the elimination of most of the mob, politicians, elite, and police force in one fell swoop and let the city pick up the pieces after the main sources of Gotham's problems are all gone. Regardless, the only remotely realistic way to turn Gotham around now would be to carpet bomb the whole city and start over.

Edited May 4, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[Miss Dee]

Batman as a metaphorical carpet bomb. I can accept that.

[jhlipton]

YMMV

[Perfect Xero]

56 minutes ago, iheartET said:

Question:

Why didn't Ivy's perfume work on Gabe ?

I'm pretty sure that it did. That's why he told Penguin the truth instead of lying.

[srpturtle80]

These last two episodes have bored me to tears. Not sure why but I am just not feeling it since the hiatus. Also, there was a lot of flying gore and blood this episode. I learned my lesson to not eat while watching this show a long time ago, but it was still a bit much! 

Edited May 6, 2017 by srpturtle80