S04.E18: No Regrets

[Cranberry]

The truth behind Fitz’s turn could bring down all of S.H.I.E.L.D.

[ixixan]

All I want is a Philinda reunion already. I'm hoping it will happen in 418 since Phil is with Mace and Mace and Melinda fight at one point.

That aside, I've really been enjoying the Framework arc so far.

[ohjoy]

TTTRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But dang, we lost Mace.

Then that last scene -- this is officially the Best. Episode. Ever!!!

[xqueenfrostine]

Tripppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  So happy to have him back even if it is temporary.

So was Mace an Inhuman for real in this frame work?  I don't think he was "juicing" like he was in the real world, as he asked May when they were fighting if she was juicing or if she'd become one of us/them.

Mack and his kid are breaking my heart.  

[Jediknight]

Oh my god, this arc is just excellent.

Trip being back is awesome, losing Mace isn't though.

May is back, she and Daisy are going to have no mercy on Hydra and Aida

[Lady Calypso]

Oh, come on show! Not Jeff Mace! Not him! Can Jason O'Mara ever have more than a year long contract with a show? Whether his shows get cancelled or now his characters die, I just want him to last longer than a year on something! That being said, I knew if they wanted to kill someone off in the Framework, he was the most expendable. I just didn't expect it to be episode 18. I'm glad he went out a hero, but goddamnit, show. 

I do appreciate that they took the risk, but I fear that they did it for a potential fifth season so LMD Ward can take his place.

Tripp! You're back! Hello, Framework Tripp! I was so giddy when I saw him. I'd love nothing more than to see more of him. I hope he can stick around for the rest of the season.

So, May takes the serum (and I guess Mace wasn't Inhuman here, but just a better hero than he was), couldn't beat Mace on her own, and then she let him go. Also, maybe Coulson helped jog something in her? I guess we'll see.

Oh, so we finally meet Fitz's dad. I mean, he's bad, but I honestly pictured a lot worse. There is plenty of time to see Asshole Fitz in action, especially with him encouraging his son to not show sympathy. 

Radcliffe and Daisy get talking. I'd be afraid of cameras being there to listen to their conversation, but I imagine the show MIGHT let that little detail slide so they can all escape.

I predict the season cliffhanger is LMD Ward. Also, speaking of Ward, they really went out of their way to show a completely good side to him here. I actually am remembering that way back when, I didn't ship Ward/Skye, but I shipped Ward/Simmons. So their scenes were a nice reminder of the good old days, before Ward revealed his true HYDRA colours. 

Mack is going to be devastated when he has to lose Hope. And all I can see is her sacrificing herself so her dad can go back to the real world. 

[SnoGirl]

Be still my funky heart.  TRIP.  TRIP! Forget Ward being an LMD, please bring back Trip full time. Even in the Framework, he's still causing trouble with his Grandfather's tricks. I've been thinking we'd see other Agents, but Trip never crossed my mind. I was shocked. I didn't even catch the line where they were talking about catching someone with an "old school camera." That right there should have given it away, but I missed it.

I'm super sad about Mace. He was given a hero's death, and for that, I appreciate.

The last scene with May and Quake, I could not stop smiling. I literally said out loud "Go give them Hell Ladies!" And Daisy knows the backdoor, they have a way out.

[xqueenfrostine]

4 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

(and I guess Mace wasn't Inhuman here, but just a better hero than he was)

What would "better hero" entail though?  His comment to May makes no sense unless he's more than human.  He asked her if she was "one of us now?"  I assume the "us" doesn't mean the resistance, since being a member of the resistance doesn't give you increased strength.  

[Lady Calypso]

Just now, xqueenfrostine said:

What would "better hero" entail though?  His comment to May makes no sense unless he's more than human.  He asked her if she was "one of us now?"  I assume the "us" doesn't mean the resistance, since being a member of the resistance doesn't give you increased strength.  

I don't know. Maybe you're right. He could have been Inhuman and I misinterpreted. Actually, I probably misinterpreted. We didn't see him take any serum, even with his super suit, so it's probably my mistake in how I read the situation. The "one of us" comment got me super confused.

[SnoGirl]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

I don't know. Maybe you're right. He could have been Inhuman and I misinterpreted. Actually, I probably misinterpreted. We didn't see him take any serum, even with his super suit, so it's probably my mistake in how I read the situation. The "one of us" comment got me super confused.

If it makes you feel better, I was trying to figure out if Trip was Inhuman because he was in quarantine. I think he was just a subversive agent, but this fangirl was rewinding and rewatching scenes with hopes that he "might" make a real Inhuman appearance out of the Framework. Because anyone can return in the comic books right?

[Tiger]

When I saw BJ Britt's name in the credits, I was jumping around like Tom Cruise on Oprah's couch.  Then when he actually showed up on screen I yelled "TRIP!!!!!!!!!!!!" so loudly I'm pretty sure my entire neighborhood heard me.  I really hope we get more Framework!Tripp.

I hated Mace when he first showed up, but damn his death suddenly caused my house to get really dusty or something.

Simmons watching Mack with his Framework!daughter was heartbreaking.  I also really liked Simmons' interactions with Framework!Ward, particularly that she still cant even look at him.

I didnt like how theyre continuing to play coy as to what May is aware of and when she was aware of it.  I think maybe her terrigining Daisy to take down Hydra at the end was possibly because of what theyre doing to kids and not because she woke up.

ETA: this arc continues to be fucking amazing.  I very rarely ever re-watch anything, but I'll definitely be doing a 'movie' marathon of this arc at some point this summer.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Tiger

[ohjoy]

I realized the final scene doesn't completely make sense with May just standing there in the middle of a burst terrigen crystal while Daisy transforms (original terrigen crystals were lethal to humans, which is how we lost Tripp in the first place), but I don't care because the scene was cool and both women knew it.

 

Also, from two months ago --

On 2/22/2017 at 0:14 AM, RandomMe said:

SHOW!!! Did I not say Fitz and Simmons have been through enough?!!!

I like Brett Dalton, but I do not need Ward back with Daisy in any version of reality. However, I will forgive everything if Tripp is somehow alive again.

The rest of this is BONKERS and hopefully I will be emotionally prepared for Marvel's "The Matrix" by the beginning of April.

I'm a girl of my word. *Resumes Happy Dance*

[mac123x]

21 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, maybe Coulson helped jog something in her? I guess we'll see.

Her turning point was seeing kids in that Quarantine building.  I'm guessing that has something to do with the little girl she saved in Bahrain and all that psychobabble stuff.

 

I can't look at Fitz Sr. and not see the horrible overacting that the actor did as the Earl of Surrey in Tudors S4.  Fitz's "one regret" is definitely a cautionary tale.  "My one regret is that my father wasn't in my life growning up"  Aida:  "Okay, now he is."  Framework: "Did we mention that he was physically and psychologically abusive and would turn you into a soulless mirror of himself?"

 

I'm enjoying Jemma's struggle with reality vs not-really-reality-but-looks-goddamn-like-it.  Once they get out she might be an advocate for leaving the program running.  It reminds me of a novel I read a few years ago (The Hydrogen Sonata) which had a lengthy discussion on the  morality of creating simulations that so closely mirrored real individuals, and how that was basically creating life.  Is it moral to turn off a simulation when the simulated characters have basically achieved sentience?  Tough question.

 

5 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

I realized the final scene doesn't completely make sense with May just standing there in the middle of a burst terrigen crystal while Daisy transforms (original terrigen crystals were lethal to humans, which is how we lost Tripp in the first place), but I don't care because the scene was cool and both women knew it.

Tripp died because the terragen crystals were mixed with the Diviner metal.  The Diviner killed any non-Inhuman who touched it.

[Enigma X]

I really liked Mace and was sad to see him go. But Tripp! Honestly, he was a callback I never knew I wanted, but my cheshire grin is telling me it is awesome.

Mack and Hope are just perfect for me. I love their scenes and both actors are selling the father/daughter closeness.

Since we have been in the framework, I keep starting and erasing the following unpopular opinion. May/Ming Na really bugs me with her "bad ass" glare. I am not sure why it irritates me so much, but it does. A lot.

[xqueenfrostine]

16 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

If it makes you feel better, I was trying to figure out if Trip was Inhuman because he was in quarantine. I think he was just a subversive agent, but this fangirl was rewinding and rewatching scenes with hopes that he "might" make a real Inhuman appearance out of the Framework. Because anyone can return in the comic books right?

Wasn't he the person that Fitz was talking about to his father about getting sent to the reenlightenment centers for being caught with a camera?  I assumed that was the case because Fitz said the camera the guy was caught with didn't have film, and then Tripp was looking for his film-containing boots as they were evacuating.

 

5 minutes ago, Tiger said:

 

I didnt like how theyre continuing to play coy as to what May is aware of and when she was aware of it.  I think maybe her terrigining Daisy to take down Hydra at the end was possibly because of what theyre doing to kids and not because she woke up.

Though I thought I saw a twinge of recognition when May and Coulson interacted, I do think it was the kids in quarrantine that led May to decide to betray Hydra and power up Daisy.

 

4 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

I realized the final scene doesn't completely make sense with May just standing there in the middle of a burst terrigen crystal while Daisy transforms (original terrigen crystals were lethal to humans, which is how we lost Tripp in the first place), but I don't care because the scene was cool and both women knew it.

Terrigen crystals themselves are not lethal to humans, terrigen crystals that were grown from melting down Diviners were.  We don't know the origin of the Terrigen in Hydra's possession, but if they managed to either get a different source than what the clan at Afterlife had or they managed to separate the terrigen from the diviner fragments (something we know is possible since it happened when the crystals dissolved into the ocean at the end of season two), then the terrigen itself wouldn't be deadly to May.

[MisterGlass]

Wait, the super strength serum has peppermint in it?  Isn't that Crazy Cal's formula?  Maybe Fitz tweaked it to be a bit more predictable.

Darn it, Mace really grew on me.  I'm going to miss him.  That's two deaths in two episodes.  This is going to be an intense final ride.

I was waiting for the the terrigen crystal show up, and good for May for bringing it into being.  I think it was a combination of seeing the kids, Coulson asking her to help, and Mace sacrificing himself.

Iain De Caestecker is doing really well at this.  Not a bad choice for his father.

[Lantern7]

This was one of my initial thoughts from "Meet The New Boss":

Quote

I'm rooting for the new Director to die in a humiliating manner. It's not the Inhuman thing that bugs, but rather the whole gladhanding attitude. I know Phil has baggage, but at least he's human. I mean, relatable.

I don't think I'm going to miss Mace that much, but he grew on me. He got to be a hero in the Framework, and he died for it. Bright side: he beat May and showed her the light. Not at the same time, mind you, but still impressive. Rest In Peace, you magnificent gladhanding bastard.

Like the idea of one conversion per episode. Would not have put money on May turning, though. I figured she'd be a tougher nut to crack. But she gave Daisy the power-up. It might suck if she came out of the cocoon still 75 percent dead from the constant beatings.

Hi, Tripp! Miss your old-school spy gear!

Shit, Fitz is gonna kill himself once he gets loose. Also, I'm disappointed that Peter Capaldi didn't play his father. But if that had happened, there would have been disappointment that he didn't say a certain four-letter word twice in every sentence.

ETA: “I get this itch . . . like hives.” Oh, AoS. Never change.

[DeLurker]

Nice call out to A Clockwork Orange in the quarantine. And nice call out to current events with "nevertheless she persisted".

I may have hurt my dog's ears when I squealed Triiiiippppp!

[xqueenfrostine]

5 minutes ago, DeLurker said:

And nice call out to current events with "nevertheless she persisted".

That made me smile too.  And yes, the Quarantine is a call out to A  Clockwork Orange, but it also seems to be a mass version of what we saw happen to Agent 33 in season 2 (which was also obviously inspired by ACO).  

Edited April 19, 2017 by xqueenfrostine

[UNOSEZ]

Ill admit that I didn't totally pay ATTN to parts of the episode because I saw bj britt's name in the credits so I kept waiting for Tripp to show up... I was scared he was gonna die before jemma *who had a lil crush on him* or daisy saw him... Can't wait to see her reaction... I already know Mack may not wanna come back... And I think I heard Aida say something about them crossing over to the real world... I'm saying all this to say... Dear marvel... Bring Tripp back... Y'all made a mistake killing him and keeping the bland Brit who ended uo leaving anyway.  

[DeLurker]

5 minutes ago, xqueenfrostine said:

but it also seems to be a mass version of what we saw happen to Agent 33 in season 2 (which was also obviously inspired by ACO

Forgot all about that!

[ohjoy]

44 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Tripp died because the terragen crystals were mixed with the Diviner metal.  The Diviner killed any non-Inhuman who touched it.

That's right -- so no danger to May anyway. You know, I should remember that -- I think it's been explained to me before. The memory of Tripp dying just sort of blurs all the details. 

[thuganomics85]

Trip!!  That was a fun return.  Glad a version of him is hanging around the Framework, and assisting the rebellion.  Still crazy that he hasn't been here since season two, but I still remember him fondly.  Hopefully he'll stick around for a few more episodes.

Damn, at least Mace went out like a champ, by saving everyone else from from a collapsing building, was a brutal way to go.  Going back into the real world and seeing Aida disengage him while he was flatlining was chilling.  She really does not give a damn about human life.  Scary.

Speaking of chilling, Framework Fitz continues to be one of the best villains in quite some time.  And we even get to meet his father played by David O'Hara, so really, it's no surprise he would become this with no Simmons and that guy in his life!  Still not sure how Simmons or anyone else will be able to break him out of this spell and how this will effect him going forward.  Ian De Caestecker continues to be a highlight.

Got a kick out of the Simmons/Ward duo, since Simmons will never not hate his ass, and this Ward doesn't understand why.

Surprised over how Melinda ended up seeing the light.  Seemed like it really started when she was that "Hydra" was doing some kind of experiments with children, and being told to bomb that building I'm sure contributed as well.  Plus, seeing Mace sacrifice himself seem to also effect her.  I dont' think she has completely snapped out of her funk, but it seems like she is against Hydra now, and is totally unleashing Daisy on them!  That final exchange between the two was great.

Poor Radcliffe.  He still did some horrible things, but John Hannah is doing a great job at showing his regrets over his action.  He really never should have played with things he couldn't control.

Glad Mack and Hope are chilling with the rebellion.  Hope nothing bad happens to either of them.

I'm actually kind of enjoying Framework Coulson more then normal Coulson.  He's just a geek!

This is shaping up to be one of the best arcs since the post-Winter Solder one from the first season.

[hello]

Liking this arc but it's dragging out way too much. Next, AIDA's gonna trick them into thinking they've really left the Framework BUT THEY"RE STILL IN IT!!!1! OH NOES!!!1!

Learn when to let a story go, writers.  I "needed" about three episodes of this one, tops. Back to reality.

But I have to say, although the length of the arc is tiresome, each episode is really nailing it of its own accord. No wasted space, no needless parts, very lean and feisty storytelling, enjoyable and jaw-dropping by turns. Couldn't find a flaw in a single performance.

I just wish that same, succinctly aggressive storytelling we're seeing per episode could be applied to the overall story arc - nothing wasted, story gets told before it gets old, and we're moving on, moving on. No story loitering, writers! A rolling stone gathers no moss and your story's looking a little green...

[navelgazer]

I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who is enjoying the stuffing out of the Framework arc.  I'm totally squeeing all over the place, it's just that good.  I love that the same actors are getting to fantastically play unknown facets of their alternative universe counterparts.  I'm in awe of Aida/Madame Hydra/Agnes.  Mallory Jansen is bringing this.  And Framework really should somehow turn out to be an alternate universe rather than just some virtual-reality/AI-induced nightmare.  

Edited April 20, 2017 by navelgazer

[Minneapple]

Trip! I missed him! Can we get a Daisy/Trip scene pleeease?

I know there's all this speculation about Ward coming back to the real world, but eff that. I want Hope in the real world. And Trip.

I enjoy Jemma rolling her eyes at everything FrameWard says. 

[diadochokinesis]

Oh, I'm loving this arc.  It is like my Christmas wish list!  I had just recently started rewatching AOS from the beginning on Netflix and was remembering how much I loved Trip.  Hell, I even loved Ward in the very beginning. I see this almost as a redemption arc for his character.  Like, we see how Fitz is if his father was in his life and he went bad. So, is Framework Ward the one that we would have known without his crappy upbringing and Garrett?

I love Jason O'Mara as an actor but I'm not heartbroken over his death. I appreciate how he went out and felt like it served a purpose to the storyline. 

I kind of don't want the framework arc to end because that means no more walk down memory lane with all these characters that we've lost through the years. 

[Jediknight]

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Damn, at least Mace went out like a champ, by saving everyone else from from a collapsing building, was a brutal way to go.

 He was thought to be a hero in Vienna, when it was just a picture taken at the right time, but in this episode he got to be the hero saving a bunch of people from a bombed building.

[Vyk]

So many callbacks in this episode.

The enhancement serum with gorilla metabolic enzymes and a hint of peppermint, like Crazy Cal's serum.  Bakshi's voice as those kids were getting indoctrinated, saying familiar Hydra sayings.  Tripp's camera and the mention of his grandfather.

Speaking of that last one . . . TRIPP!  Oh, wow!  When I saw B.J. Britt's name in the credits, I was so excited to see him!  I hope he sticks around for a while in this arc!

Simmons's interactions with Ward are my everything.  Sure, he's not the same Ward, but all she remembers is the one she knew, and she treats him accordingly.  And yes, while it's good to be reminded that he was on their side for a time, I still don't need the real one back.  His story is complete, so no need for him.

Daisy and Radcliffe's scene was nice, and while the latter is regretful and remorseful about all of this, it's still good to see that the former has no sympathy for him since this whole mess is his fault.  And there is another way out!  Awesome!  Hope they can find it!

Really sad to lose Mace, and even sadder still that he died before finding out that this isn't the real world.  But he went out like the hero he couldn't be in his actual life, so that's something.

The final scene with May and Daisy . . . wow.  Can't wait to see how it kicks off next week!

Sad to lose Mace, and I hate that he went out before finding out that their current world wasn't real.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Ward's ultimate redemption would've been if he'd taken Mace's place and died instead. 

I vsmf help it. I was loving to hate May during her fight with Mace. She is vicious.

Welcome back agent May. I am glad that it was the endangered mids that brought her back. It ties in nicely with her one regret. 

[Sandman]

9 hours ago, Tiger said:

When I saw BJ Britt's name in the credits, I was jumping around like Tom Cruise on Oprah's couch.  Then when he actually showed up on screen I yelled "TRIP!!!!!!!!!!!!" so loudly I'm pretty sure my entire neighborhood heard me.  I really hope we get more Framework!Tripp.

I know exactly what you mean.

Quote

I hated Mace when he first showed up, but damn his death suddenly caused my house to get really dusty or something.

Yep -- mine, too. I hate AIDA more than ever. I hope someone / everyone takes her down HARD.

I wondered if the Framework version of Mace was still "juicing," even if we never saw it happen. He seemed to recognize it in May. It's possible that referring to her as "one of us" was just a lie to maintain his cover story.

But why would AIDA allow the Framework to restore Daisy's powers? I don't think she'd be that interested in consistency, or what we might call "game balance." Too much like playing by the rules.

Can someone remind me of something (er, yet again)? I was sure Fitz has said that his father was cruel and abusive -- not just that he was absent. It doesn't make sense to me that Fitz's regret is that didn't have his father in his life. But I'm still not buying that AIDA's explanation of what she did can be taken at face value. She changed one regret, fine; but I'm certainly that's not all she did.

Framework!May reminds me as much as LMayD or more of the Mirror Universe version of Spock -- she is coming to understand that her system is corrupt and she has the means to upend the whole thing, because there are some things even she won't do.

[shrewd.buddha]

10 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Radcliffe and Daisy get talking. I'd be afraid of cameras being there to listen to their conversation, but I imagine the show MIGHT let that little detail slide so they can all escape.

Yes, you would expect that there would be no secret conversations in a prison - plus Daisy knows this is all happening in a computer program so *everything* should be recorded and easily reviewed by AIDA back in the 'real world'. 

It was a bit sad when Simmons could not name anything at all about Mace's real life when trying to convince him everything wasn't real. It's as if her brain has only one repeating thought : Fitz! Fitz! Fitz! 

We finally got a look back at what's happening in the real world when AIDA saw that Mace's vitals had flat-lined. Being a robot, I am not sure why AIDA cares about keeping any of the Agents alive - it makes no difference to their lives in the Framework  (see Radcliffe).  ...Which makes it odd that dying in the Framework does affect the bodies back in the real world. 

It would be amusing, when everyone gets back to the real world, that they discover the LMD versions of themselves have been doing a better job running SHIELD than they did. And they will still have LMD  Mace. What will they do with him/it? 

Edited April 19, 2017 by shrewd.buddha

[Sandman]

5 hours ago, Vyk said:

Sad to lose Mace, and I hate that he went out before finding out that their current world wasn't real.

But he'd already learned about our world from Simmons. I think he chose to believe that the deaths of those he cared about mattered enough to sacrifice himself for.

[Raja]

8 minutes ago, Sandman said:

But he'd already learned about our world from Simmons. I think he chose to believe that the deaths of those he cared about mattered enough to sacrifice himself for.

He heard, but unlike Leopold having intimate knowledge that an other side exist from Madame Hydra, the Patriot and Ward are treating Ms. Simmons as if she is suffering from some sort of mental break as a result of living under Hydra's boot.

 

From everything I saw Mace was indeed an Inhuman in the Framework. "Are you juicing or one of us now?" Madame Hydra seems to be more hands off in the actual operation, curing the greatest regret and then letting the world go as it wills naturally. In the robot wants a soul way she does not want a slave Leopold but rather real emotions. After bringing daddy back into his life everything else about their relationship is organic. She is just withholding information from him much like a real life partner often does.

[mac123x]

9 hours ago, hello said:

Back to reality

I keep expecting that we'll get some scenes from our world, even if it's just Yo-Yo and the Redshirts sitting on the Zephyr playing canasta.

 

One thing I found weird was that May specifically turned on her body camera before she went into the collapsing building- so doesn't Hydra have a record of her not shooting Mace and all the others, and letting everyone escape?  I know Fitz and Ophelia were on a speaker-phone, but surely someone was watching her video feed.  Maybe they're too scared to rat out May.

35 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

It would be amusing, when everyone gets back to the real world, that they discover the LMD versions of themselves have been doing a better job running SHIELD than they did. And they will still have LMD  Mace. What will they do with him/it?

I'm having a hard time remembering - were there LMD survivors of the bomb that LMD-May used to blow up the base right after Simmons / Daisy / Yo-Yo / Redshirts escaped?

 

I'm also confused / intrigued by Project [Something I can't remember], which Madam Hydra says will allow them to attack the Other World in a "destroy them before they destroy us" thing.  That can't be what her intention is - the Framework is a distributed program running on the web.  If she intends to destroy our world, or even just kill off humanity because we're a threat to the Framework, eventually the system will shut down due to lack of power and maintenance on the hardware.

[CaptainTightpants]

I don't understand how Mace's physical body would have died. Getting killed in the framework is something like dying in a very vivid dream, I would assume. 

But your brain activity doesn't simply stop because you think you get killed. It is a physical process, he should still be alive in the real world because his real body wasn't injured in any way. His brain should be working just fine. 

I have to say that this development took me right out of the story. 

If Aida had been monitoring the situation and turned him off when he dies in the framework that would make more sense. But it showed his brainwave activity flat line before that. 

[DeLurker]

4 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

I vsmf help it. I was loving to hate May during her fight with Mace. She is vicious.

I thought the fight scene was well done.  And since Ming-Na Wen has completely sold me on the May is the ultimate bad ass, I never think about the logistics of this 5'4" / 120? lb woman kicking the asses of almost anyone.

9 hours ago, Minneapple said:

I know there's all this speculation about Ward coming back to the real world, but eff that. I want Hope in the real world. And Trip.

I'll trade Ward and Radcliffe, and I love John Hannah very much, for Hope and Trip.  But I would live in constant fear they would knock off Hope to justify enraged and heart breakingly sad Mack - I'm not sure I would survive that.

1 hour ago, shrewd.buddha said:

We finally got a look back at what's happening in the real world when AIDA saw that Mace's vitals had flat-lined. Being a robot, I am not sure why AIDA cares about keeping any of the Agents alive - it makes no difference to their lives in the Framework  (see Radcliffe).

Mace flat-lining and Aida flicking it off was chilling.

[rmontro]

12 hours ago, xqueenfrostine said:

So was Mace an Inhuman for real in this frame work?

It does appear that way.  In the real world, Mace's "juicing" was a secret, so was Aida or Radcliffe aware of it?  If not, it makes sense that they would build the Framework with his powers built in.  

So we lose the Patriot but gain Quake.  I hope Mace's death isn't permanent, even though it sure looks like it is.

May manages to shake off the brainwashing, so that shows that it isn't just Coulson being special that allowed him to see past the facade.

Finally, we see that Fitz' sociopathic tendencies aren't because Jemma wasn't in his life.  It's because his mother wasn't there and he was raised by his apparent jackass of a dad.  Makes a lot more sense.

[vibeology]

11 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

Wait, the super strength serum has peppermint in it?  Isn't that Crazy Cal's formula?  Maybe Fitz tweaked it to be a bit more predictable.

 

11 hours ago, xqueenfrostine said:

 it also seems to be a mass version of what we saw happen to Agent 33 in season 2 (which was also obviously inspired by ACO).  

Both of these moments just made me so happy. This show has spent years building up a rich mythology and the writers are really paying it off with all these callbacks. You don't need to get them to enjoy the plot but it really is a treat for fans who've been here since the beginning seeing all these little things come back because they'd be in our guys heads ready for Aida to steal when she scanned their brains.

11 hours ago, DeLurker said:

Nice call out to A Clockwork Orange in the quarantine. And nice call out to current events with "nevertheless she persisted".

The writers have not been shy about using real world parallels in the Framework and I love it. But they're doing it well. It's not some explicit parallel between our current political system and the show; it's taking stuff people do talk about (the Inhuman "registry" being connected to various registries that have existed in the past and have been proposed in the present) and putting it into a sci-fi context, stretching it to a logical end and seeing how that would change the world as we know it. Publically the claim in the Framework is that you just have to report who you are and it's okay, but we see that people get taken away and forced into some creepy government reprogramming class. I honestly think this is some of the best writing on TV right now because they're taking a classic sci-fi trope of "mirror universe" and using it to give us more insight on our characters and comment on our world.

9 hours ago, Minneapple said:

I know there's all this speculation about Ward coming back to the real world, but eff that. I want Hope in the real world. And Trip.

I enjoy Jemma rolling her eyes at everything FrameWard says. 

Jemma is me when it comes to Ward. I know it's not really him, but I don't want to feel like I have to give Ward credit for the good things he's doing. He doesn't deserve that credit because this isn't Ward. This computer program is a double agent because that's who Ward is to the people Aida scanned. I don't want to see him come back because the real Ward was never a good guy and doesn't deserve this second chance. Hope does. Hope never got a first chance and if anyone comes out of the Framework, I want it to be her, not just for Mack's sake (though I can't imagine how hard it would be to lose her again) but because she's a little badass who is smart enough to ask questions, learn and build cool things and has demonstrated love and compassion for others. (Not to say I don't love Trip, I just think if someone is coming out of the framework somehow, it'll just be one and Hope get my vote.)

2 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

It was a bit sad when Simmons could not name anything at all about Mace's real life when trying to convince him everything wasn't real. It's as if her brain has only one repeating thought : Fitz! Fitz! Fitz! 

The worst thing about it was that Simmons was the person who worked closest with Mace. She was right up there with her high clearance working by his side every day and not once in the real world did she bother to learn anything about him. To not know if he was married or had kids? She spent so long being suspicious and trying to work the system that she forgot that Mace was a real person who she could have connected with and now he's gone and no one will ever really get that chance. Someone had to die in the Framework to up the stakes and to pay off the warning that dying there meant dying for real and Mace was probably the right choice, but damn it's a very brutal thing because no one will every really get to know him. Aida turning him off was cold, but it works because his entire experience in Shield was cold and detached it its own way.

Edited April 19, 2017 by vibeology

[tessaray]

1 hour ago, CaptainTightpants said:

I don't understand how Mace's physical body would have died. Getting killed in the framework is something like dying in a very vivid dream, I would assume. 

But your brain activity doesn't simply stop because you think you get killed. It is a physical process, he should still be alive in the real world because his real body wasn't injured in any way. His brain should be working just fine. 

I have to say that this development took me right out of the story. 

If Aida had been monitoring the situation and turned him off when he dies in the framework that would make more sense. But it showed his brainwave activity flat line before that. 

I rationalized it as the way the Framework hooks into the brain.  And then tried not to think about it too much.  

I liked so many parts of this episode but it wasn't quite as riveting as the last one. I forgot to breathe in some scenes last week.  Fitz's dad was kind of a letdown. And I'm a little confused about Aida. Does real world Aida communicate with Madame Hydra?  Is she monitoring the multiple realities of the Frameworkers in her head like a server with dozens of VMs running on it?  

[Sandman]

5 hours ago, Raja said:

He heard, but unlike Leopold having intimate knowledge that an other side exist from Madame Hydra, the Patriot and Ward are treating Ms. Simmons as if she is suffering from some sort of mental break as a result of living under Hydra's boot.

Ward certainly is; as skeptical as Mace was, it seemed like he was beginning to wonder if Simmons might be right.

3 hours ago, vibeology said:

It's not some explicit parallel between our current political system and the show;

I disagree; the erasing of the past, disinformation, changing history books to reflect the ruling regime is very much in line with the "fake news"/"alternative facts" fight over what's true, and how truth is communicated, in the current American political climate. (In fact, altering school history texts for political reasons has already happened: a major manufacturer of school history texts in the US has bowed to pressure to minimize the role of the "irreligious" Thomas Jefferson.) And Fitz's "Nevertheless, she persisted" was neither random nor coincidence.

5 hours ago, Raja said:

From everything I saw Mace was indeed an Inhuman in the Framework. "Are you juicing or one of us now?" Madame Hydra seems to be more hands off in the actual operation, curing the greatest regret and then letting the world go as it wills naturally. In the robot wants a soul way she does not want a slave Leopold but rather real emotions. After bringing daddy back into his life everything else about their relationship is organic. She is just withholding information from him much like a real life partner often does.

But Madame Hydra is only the face that AIDA wears in the Framework; she's a character played by AIDA. I have no reason to think that AIDA is letting things play out as they will without a nudge here or there. Does she want a Leopold bent to her will completely? Maybe she does. What about their interaction suggests that she cares whether Leopold's devotion to her is authentic? She tells Daisy she wants what everyone else has: a choice. But she's actively compromising others' choices. There is nothing about AIDA that's organic -- pun intended. What she tells Daisy or Radcliffe about what she's doing isn't necessarily accurate.

And as for the idea that dying in the Framework means you die in the world, this is a variation on the trope of a dreamscape having real-world effects, including the death of the dreamer.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Sandman
I suppose I'm assuming that AIDA communicates more or less constantly with Madame Hydra and controls that character's actions directly.

[xqueenfrostine]

5 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Ward's ultimate redemption would've been if he'd taken Mace's place and died instead. 

Wouldn't have worked.  He doesn't have super strength, so he couldn't have stopped the building collapsing before everyone got out.  If he took over for Mace, the only person to make it out alive might have been Mace himself.

2 hours ago, Sandman said:

But why would AIDA allow the Framework to restore Daisy's powers? I don't think she'd be that interested in consistency, or what we might call "game balance." Too much like playing by the rules.

Maybe this is just proof that she's being honest when she says she's not micromanaging the framework?  Aida told Daisy that she didn't create this world to be this way, she said the only changes she made were to remove each person's greatest regret and that the framework algorithmically filled in how the world would have been different if X thing was changed.  I know you think she's lying, but I do think the fact that Daisy was able to go under terregenesus again strongly implies that she wasn't.  That's the only way that scene makes sense.

 

2 hours ago, Sandman said:

Can someone remind me of something (er, yet again)? I was sure Fitz has said that his father was cruel and abusive -- not just that he was absent. It doesn't make sense to me that Fitz's regret is that didn't have his father in his life. But I'm still not buying that AIDA's explanation of what she did can be taken at face value. She changed one regret, fine; but I'm certainly that's not all she did.

The show has said that Papa Fitz was verbally abusive and left Fitz and his mom when Fitz was ten.  Specifically, he used to tell Fitz than he was dumb and worthless.  Even though Papa Fitz was a cruel and miserable jerk, I think it's pretty realistic that Fitz still would have missed his presence.  It's not uncommon for abused children to internalize their abuse to the point where they believe that if they had been "better" children, their abusive parent might have given them the love they needed.  Maybe the wish Aida granted Fitz was that he get a second chance to earn his dad's love and/or to show him he wasn't worthless.  That could have set up a reality that left Fitz spending his teen and young adult years chasing his dad's approval and molding himself into someone his dad would be proud of.  Also, it's not clear that in this reality that Fitz's Mom is still around.  It's possible that in this new reality, Fitz's parents still split up but that his dad got custody of him.

2 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

It was a bit sad when Simmons could not name anything at all about Mace's real life when trying to convince him everything wasn't real. It's as if her brain has only one repeating thought : Fitz! Fitz! Fitz! 

It's a bit sad, but to be fair, Simmons hasn't known him that long and we've never seen any evidence that the two were are friendly on a personal level as they were close on a professional one.  Mace really really became a full member of the team that way.  

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

In the real world, Mace's "juicing" was a secret, so was Aida or Radcliffe aware of it?  If not, it makes sense that they would build the Framework with his powers built in.  

They definitely know about the juicing.  The point of mapping the brains of people they were putting into the framework and/or into LMD bodies was to get access to all of their memories, personality traits and behaviors.  So I would think that they'd know about his juicing, but I think they also knew that Mace wishes his superhero status wasn't fraudulent.   

Edited April 19, 2017 by xqueenfrostine

[Sandman]

1 minute ago, xqueenfrostine said:

Maybe this is just proof that she's being honest when she says she's not micromanaging the framework?  Aida told Daisy that she didn't create this world to be this way, she said the only changes she made were to remove each person's greatest regret and that the framework algorithmically filled in how the world would have been different if X thing was changed.

Hmm. Possibly. But I still think AIDA's a cheating cheater -- she's not bending the rules; she IS the rule.

[rmontro]

3 minutes ago, xqueenfrostine said:

They definitely know about the juicing.  The point of mapping the brains of people they were putting into the framework and/or into LMD bodies was to get access to all of their memories, personality traits and behaviors.  So I would think that they'd know about his juicing, but I think they also knew that Mace wishes his superhero status wasn't fraudulent.   

So his powers not be real would be his one regret.  Maybe so.  Funny how he was on the Inhumans side in the Framework.  That must have been intentional on Aida's part.  Why would she do that?

Edited April 19, 2017 by rmontro

[Sandman]

3 minutes ago, xqueenfrostine said:

Also, it's not clear that in this reality that Fitz's Mom is still around.  It's possible that in this new reality, Fitz's parents still split up but that his dad got custody of him.

It seemed to me like Fitz and his father were speaking of his mother in the past tense. Just my impression, but I don't think she's alive in the Framework.

[Dawn16]

2 hours ago, CaptainTightpants said:

I don't understand how Mace's physical body would have died. Getting killed in the framework is something like dying in a very vivid dream, I would assume. 

But your brain activity doesn't simply stop because you think you get killed. It is a physical process, he should still be alive in the real world because his real body wasn't injured in any way. His brain should be working just fine. 

I have to say that this development took me right out of the story. 

If Aida had been monitoring the situation and turned him off when he dies in the framework that would make more sense. But it showed his brainwave activity flat line before that. 

I view it as if a person's soul is uploaded into the framework.  Your soul can continue to exist without your body being alive, but once your soul is "killed" your body flatlines.  Apparently having no faith in an actual heaven, Radcliff wanted an Eden for Agnes' soul when her body failed her. 

 I don't know if AIDA cheats exactly.  I don't think she's taken complete control of everything that happens in the framework, but as Radcliff said, she exploits every loophole.  She fixed Fitz's one regret but did it in exactly the way that would likely end up benefiting her.   Fitz wanted his father's love.  Instead of changing his father, she got rid of his mother and made his father stay to shape Fitz into a man that his father could "love" in his father's twisted way, a man who would be with someone like Madame Hydra.   

[VCRTracking]

Man, this story arc is wrecking me. I mean it's fun too, but it is also WRECKING me.

RIP Mace. You died a true hero.

Tripp is alive! Even if it's just in the Framework it's still great to see him again.

Coulson: "Every time I see him(Ward) I get hives."Heh.

"THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT YOU SADISTIC BITCH!!!" I love John Hannah.

"Nevertheless she persisted." I see what you did there.

It's been bugging me for hours since I watched the episode where I've seen the actor who plays Fitz' dad and someone on Tumblr posted it was Runcorn from Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part One!

Edited April 19, 2017 by VCRTracking

[xqueenfrostine]

7 hours ago, Sandman said:

It seemed to me like Fitz and his father were speaking of his mother in the past tense. Just my impression, but I don't think she's alive in the Framework.

I heard the past tense too, but decided past tense could also both work if Fitz's mother was dead or if she had just abandoned him in this version of reality. We don't know what happened, but I do think it's safe to say that she's been out of the picture for a while.  Though, now that I think about it, do we know if Fitz's mom is still living in the real world?  We've heard Simmons mention her parents on multiple occasions, but I don't remember Fitz talking about his mom as if she's a part of his present-day life.

7 hours ago, Sandman said:

she's not bending the rules; she IS the rule.

Is she really though?  We've been given evidence this episode that Aida is not all powerful within the framework and that she didn't build the software herself (at least not entirely).  Radcliffe said he built a backdoor into the framework and that Aida cannot get rid of it.  That establishes that Aida has at least one limitation within the framework, and if she has one she likely has others.  We have to remember that Aida is not a real person with complete agency, she's AI.  That means she's constrained by her programming.  She may be able to exploit loopholes to get around her prime directives, but she can't do so until that loophole appears (like when she killed Radcliffe).  So while she may like to cheat, she's probably limited in the ways that she can do so.

7 hours ago, rmontro said:

So his powers not be real would be his one regret.  Maybe so.  Funny how he was on the Inhumans side in the Framework.  That must have been intentional on Aida's part.  Why would she do that?

As I was alluding to above, I don't think we should assume that Aida is all powerful within the framework to the point where she creates reality exactly as she sees fit.  She told Daisy that the reality within framework (and therefore individual persons' roles within that reality) was created using computer algorithms, and I think she means that.  After all, if Aida was simply creating people's lives as she saw fit, what's the purpose of the Hydra reeducation camps?  No one in that camp was a "real" person.  They were all generated by the framework.  I don't think Aida would generate a bunch of AI rebels for funsies, I think they're there because the algorithm create has created a realistic picture (or at least what the show sdeems realistic) of what the world would look like if certain events or certain people were different.  Likewise, I don't think Aida just "let" Mace be an Inhuman/superhuman rebel, I think that's who the impartial algorithms running the framework determined Mace would be if he was the hero he always wished he was AND was living in a world where Hydra won the war against SHIELD.

Edited April 19, 2017 by xqueenfrostine
clarity

[Sandman]

12 minutes ago, xqueenfrostine said:

We have to remember that Aida is not a real person with complete agency, she's AI.  That means she's constrained by her programming.

She was constrained by her programming; honestly, I'm not sure what kind of limitations she has now. She's already been able to override the restriction against killing humans, among other things. I presume that some of this evolution beyond her original limitations is because of the influence of the Darkhold and her little "If I Only Had A Brain (Knitted Out Of Photons)" exercise. Some of it could be an exponential growth in her calculating power -- which I take from Simmons' astonishment at the level of detail within the Framework. (Maybe some of that was based on Radcliffe's skill, but I took as a reminder that AIDA is far and away more powerful than the S.H.I.E.L.D.lings have realized up 'til now.) It's another AI trope that self-awareness and person-hood come at a kind of tipping-point of computational power.

12 minutes ago, xqueenfrostine said:

I don't think Aida would generate a bunch of AI rebels for funsies, I think they're there because the algorithm create has created a realistic picture (or at least what the show seems realistic) of what the world would look like if certain events or certain people were different.  Likewise, I don't think Aida just "let" Mace be an Inhuman/superhuman rebel, I think that's who the impartial algorithms running the framework determined Mace would be if he was the hero he always wished he was AND living in a world where Hydra won the war against SHIELD.

You're probably right about her not needing or wanting to create rebels. But I can't help thinking the deck is stacked in "Madame Hydra"'s favour. If the only purpose of the Framework is to remove each person's greatest regret, why is Madame Hydra at the top of the structure? This is why I think AIDA's assertions can't be taken at face value: because the nature of a dictatorship is preserve the position of the dictator. She may say she wants the choice that is integral to being human. Her actions imply that what she really seeks is the power to enslave her enemies.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Sandman

[Jack Kerouac]

4 hours ago, CaptainTightpants said:

I don't understand how Mace's physical body would have died. Getting killed in the framework is something like dying in a very vivid dream, I would assume. 

But your brain activity doesn't simply stop because you think you get killed. It is a physical process, he should still be alive in the real world because his real body wasn't injured in any way. His brain should be working just fine. 

I have to say that this development took me right out of the story. 

If Aida had been monitoring the situation and turned him off when he dies in the framework that would make more sense. But it showed his brainwave activity flat line before that. 

It's the same idea behind 'die in a dream, die in real life.' It's nonsense, but it is a trope.