S06.E10: Latching

[lucindabelle]

I enjoyed the episode. Small group of us I know.

Hannah was grumpy because she was feeling rejected and inadequate. Her mom's visit and the teen's selfish melt-down woke her up. I liked it.

I also don't hate Marnie. In fact I like her. And saying "I'm here" is the freaking TRUTH. Real friends are the ones who show up for you. The motiviations are in the end irrelevant. Are they there or are they not?

I think law school is a great idea for Marnie and she'd be good at it. Lawyers do know the rules--  it's the only way to know if the rules have space in them. Marnie would make money and have a stable life, which deep down she wants. I was 28 when I went to grad school.

Still think Hannah's job ex machina is ridiculous but I enjoyed the episode (even though yes, "failure to latch" has been done a gazillion times.)

[Snowball II]

Just wanted to add, I liked the fact that Hannah actually named the baby Grover because it sounds like the type of name a millennial hipster living in NYC would name her baby.  I know it was Paul-Louis's suggestion, but I thought that was a nice touch.  And "Grovey" was a cute nickname.

6 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

I also don't hate Marnie. In fact I like her. And saying "I'm here" is the freaking TRUTH. Real friends are the ones who show up for you. The motiviations are in the end irrelevant. Are they there or are they not?

I disagree that motivation is irrelevant, especially in Marnie's case.  She was good with Grover and she clearly cared about Hannah, but part of the reason she was doing this- maybe a BIG part- was so she could keep putting her own life on hold, and not have to take stock of where she's at and the choices she's made.  I really liked the conversation Marnie had with Loreen, because I think it made Marnie realize that she still needs to walk her own path.  She can't stay with Hannah forever; hell, Hannah got pissed when Marnie wanted to go to a wine-tasting party for one night.  It was almost like Hannah was Marnie's mom, forbidding her to go out with her friends.  Cringe-y.

I will say, though, that getting out of the city seemed to really work for Marnie and calm her down some.  I still think she was playing the part of the chill, new-age chick, but the act wasn't as forced as it was in NYC.  I actually liked her and rooted for her the last episode, when I couldn't stand her, before.  So, if she does go to law school and becomes a lawyer, I hope she does it somewhere else.  Not being in NYC seems to really work for her. 

[Dutchgirl]

omg. This series ending sucks so bad. So f'ing bad. Latching? Seriously? 

Hannah is "latching" onto her new life and so is Marnie *nudge nudge* And in the end, the baby latches. "Get it? *exaggerated wink* Latching."

Ya, we get it. *slow clap*

This series is about Girls, not verbally abusive, spoilt, newb moms. Remembing Hannah as this temperamental asshat who constantly insults her friend (who is more nurturing to her kid than she is), or as some whack job who gives whiny teenagers her PANTS on the sidewalk is not the ending I was hoping for.

All expectations aside, any friend who gave up their life to hide away in some podunk town and help you raise your kid deserves just a wee bit more respect. No way would even our closest friend stick around after being verbally attacked like that. The only reasonable takeaway from this shit ending is that Hannah is an asshole and her kid will be emotionally scarred due to growing up with a neurotic trainwreck. 

[lucindabelle]

As someone who seriously needed friends when my dad died, in the end, I've come to see that second-guessing why people do things in the end isn't very useful.

A friend is in a situation where someone she loves is not there for her. I suspect he's more weak than uncaring but in the end the behavior looks exactly the same.

This is a BIG lesson Hannah learned and kind of the point of the whole episode. She lectures the bratty teen about how her mother probably doesn't feel like being there for her-- but IS.

Friendship is about showing up. Not about showing up "for the right reason." But showing up, period. If it's a right reason, terrif. But in the end it doesn't matter.

Hannah needed help and Marnie provided it, and if Marnie gets something out of it, that doesn't make the gesture less appreciated or worthwhile. And I do agree that Marnie's decision had a certain amount of self-service in it, and I think Hannah knows that too, and it doesn't matter.

Oh and. I've had friends yell at me like that and vice versa. People who are as close as sisters sometimes snap like sisters. I think it's the mark  of a really solid friendship that people can lose their temper and sometimes be gruff and snappish and it doesn't end the friendship. Just as children mouth off to their moms. Yes, Hannah was rude and Marnie was, in fact, annoyed.

Agree that Marnie would be better off going to a small city like Philadelphia or even Pittsburgh for Law School where she won't be tempted and distracted by entertainment glitz.

[Dutchgirl]

1 hour ago, Hrairoo said:

I didn't blame Shosh at all for cutting ties with the girls, but the way she went about it at the party came off as condescending and smug.  I know she was annoyed that Hannah showed up unexpectedly, but if she were really mature, she would have handled it better.  Instead, she just went off on this, "Here are the reasons I'm better than the rest of you" rant.  So, to me, it's still a question mark on whether she is truly happy, or if she is running this imaginary race against everyone.

 

Totally agree. I have to side with Hannah on this. Hannah took the subway across town to visit Shosh when Shosh was unreachable by phone.  Not the worst thing a friend could do. Shosh just wanted to be done with the girls and pretended not being told first-hand about Hannah's pregnancy was the reason. Nope. Shosh wants pretty friends with "purses and jobs". She continues to prove her naiveté by being so grossly superficial. My guess is that if there's a reunion, she'll come back to the group and have a sob story about how her new fabulous friends evaporated when she got sick/lost her job/got a divorce. 

[lucindabelle]

I doubt Shosh's friends would abandon her. It's one of life's great injustices really, shallow people get just as rewarded as deep ones.

I'm perfectly willing to believe Shosh's friends are nice and sweet. What's likelier I think is Shosh will get bored.

She's superficial-- but only up to a point. Her Japanese arc was fascinating and her sympathy for Ray was sweet.

[Snowball II]

31 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

As someone who seriously needed friends when my dad died, in the end, I've come to see that second-guessing why people do things in the end isn't very useful.

A friend is in a situation where someone she loves is not there for her. I suspect he's more weak than uncaring but in the end the behavior looks exactly the same.

This is a BIG lesson Hannah learned and kind of the point of the whole episode. She lectures the bratty teen about how her mother probably doesn't feel like being there for her-- but IS.

Friendship is about showing up. Not about showing up "for the right reason." But showing up, period. If it's a right reason, terrif. But in the end it doesn't matter.

Hannah needed help and Marnie provided it, and if Marnie gets something out of it, that doesn't make the gesture less appreciated or worthwhile. And I do agree that Marnie's decision had a certain amount of self-service in it, and I think Hannah knows that too, and it doesn't matter.

Oh and. I've had friends yell at me like that and vice versa. People who are as close as sisters sometimes snap like sisters. I think it's the mark  of a really solid friendship that people can lose their temper and sometimes be gruff and snappish and it doesn't end the friendship. Just as children mouth off to their moms. Yes, Hannah was rude and Marnie was, in fact, annoyed.

Agree that Marnie would be better off going to a small city like Philadelphia or even Pittsburgh for Law School where she won't be tempted and distracted by entertainment glitz.

I haven't lost one of my parents yet, but I can see how that would influence your point of view on these types of things.  I'm sorry about your father. :(

Also agree that Shosh is more likely to get bored with The Pretty Purses.  What would she do, then?  Look for "interesting" friends, again?

Edited April 18, 2017 by Hrairoo

[lucindabelle]

Thanks Hraioo. It changes your whole world view. You've never lived in a world where they weren't. I'd lost grandparents, but since I hadn't lived with them the grief was not as profound.

My father died almost 10 years ago now and the pain has lessened but never really goes away. The friend who was there for me most lost her father when she was in her early 20s. She just got it. (In her case, I think it was the right reason.)

Also, going from something deep to something less so, I wasted far too much time making excuses for this or that guy and trying to understand why he did this or that. Who cares, really. I'm a girlfriend, not a therapist. If he isn't treating me with respect and kindness, in the end it doesn't matter whether it's because he's self-centered or his mom abandoned him or (insert reason here). It matters what he does.

This does NOT apply to infants of course LOL. Where babies are concerned, it's all about the why.

[kieyra]

2 hours ago, lidarose9 said:

I have watched way too many episodes of "Teen Mom" to believe that for a minute. 

And I've survived parents who both handily disproved it. Maybe that's another reason the whole message annoys me. And in the bigger picture, it just didn't fit with the overall arc of the series. It was a show about young, somewhat damaged people trying to find themselves and stop being assholes, and it was doing things nothing else on television had ever done before. It would have been just as underwhelming if the end game was Hannah and Adam realizing they were the One True Pairing and getting married, even though that is also a thing that happens to people in real life.  

Maybe if they'd at least put some different, more original spin on it ... I've already seen the latching/baby-bonding/maternal doubt storylines almost beat for beat on everything from The Office to Jane The Virgin to (ugh) This Is Us. (Having seen the latter two so recently probably didn't do the episode any favors for me.)

Gilmore Girls spoiler:

Spoiler

If they get another Netflix series and continue Rory's pregnancy storyline, say what you will about the Palladinos, but you can bet your ass they'll come up with some kind of original take on baby shenanigans while still being somewhat touching.

(Disclaimer: I liked the revival, and I'm liking it more on the second watch. I know I'm sitting at the loser table on that one.)

As far as the rest of the cast getting their weak-ass send-offs in the penultimate episode, that would have been fine if the show had been called "Hannah". 

[Winston Wolfe]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

My father died almost 10 years ago now and the pain has lessened but never really goes away. The friend who was there for me most lost her father when she was in her early 20s. She just got it. (In her case, I think it was the right reason.)

I lost my parents fairly early in life - my mom passed when I was 19 and I lost my father at age 23.  Being an only child like Hannah, my high school and college friends (none of whom I'm in regular contact with now) helped me through those rough times.  Thinking about that makes me sad that in the end, all Hannah really had left was Marnie.  I see Elijah visiting Hannah maybe her once or twice a month, initially, before the two of them inevitably drift apart.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Winston Wolfe

[Snowball II]

11 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

I lost my parents fairly early in life - my mom passed when I was 19 and I lost my father at age 23.  Being an only child like Hannah, my high school and college friends (none of whom I'm in regular contact with now) helped me through those rough times.  Thinking about that makes me sad that in the end, all Hannah really had left was Marnie.  I see Elijah visiting Hannah maybe her once or twice a month, initially, before the two of them inevitably drift apart.

This is going back an episode, but I love how Elijah sneered at Hannah "living in a house, writing and teaching" like it was a bad life because it wasn't in NYC.  Elijah would fit right in with Carrie Bradshaw and her ilk; the city is his life.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Hrairoo

[ktwo]

I'm sorry, I know the experience I had as a new mom years ago is coloring my judgment, but I can't get past my initial HATRED that of course breastfeeding finally worked and saved the day just in the nick of time, when they were about to have to use - dunh dunh DUNH - FORMULA!!! And then of course magical success at magical breastfeeding functions as a metaphor for success at parenting. Both of those things can go fuck right off.

Also, lots of comments about the bath but I don't think anyone pointed out that you're not supposed to be bathing if you're still bleeding. Nor would you go out for a long walk at all, much less wearing that regular, non giant underwear. Did they ever say how old the baby was?

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, ktwo said:

I'm sorry, I know the experience I had as a new mom years ago is coloring my judgment, but I can't get past my initial HATRED that of course breastfeeding finally worked and saved the day just in the nick of time, when they were about to have to use - dunh dunh DUNH - FORMULA!!! And then of course magical success at magical breastfeeding functions as a metaphor for success at parenting. Both of those things can go fuck right off.

They did use formula. Hannah's walkabout lasted all day and she hadn't left enough pumped breastmilk, so Marnie and Loreen gave Grover formula. Marnie told Hannah that he'd liked it.

[scrb]

Marnie latched onto Hannah as her best friend in her time of need.

Grover wouldn't latch onto his mother's teat until maybe the end when she got fed up with that whiny teen who stole her jeans.

Hannah finally latched onto parental and adult responsibility in the end?  Though she might want to fuck one of her students.

Once aunt Marnie is no longer around, Grover might grow up to be a latchkey kid.

In the end, Hannah was the whiny voice of her generation.

[wendyg]

5 hours ago, Hrairoo said:

This is going back an episode, but I love how Elijah sneered at Hannah "living in a house, writing and teaching" like it was a bad life because it wasn't in NYC.  Elijah would fit right in with Carrie Bradshaw and her ilk; the city is his life.

Which reminds me that the thing I bought *least* in the entire series was that Elijah would leave NYC to go hang with Hannah in *Iowa*. I never understood at all what he was doing there.

[jeansheridan]

On 4/17/2017 at 7:09 AM, CofCinci said:

While I was disappointed in the finale, I did like how the finale represented three of the phases of a woman's life. Single young woman pre-baby, mother, and grandmother.

Very generous analysis.  Maiden, mother, crone. And the crone won.  Mostly. 

It is hard to remember Jenni Konner deserves credit/blame too.  She tends to keep her head down. 

I feel like all my favorite eps this season were written by men. Which bums me out.  I want to support young women writers and creators but between Girls and Insecure, I am at a loss. And a bit depressed. This finale depressed me. I just hope Hannah's mother is ruthless enough to let her flounder but I don't want Grover to suffer needlessly.  Crap, Grover has a hard life ahead of him.  

On 4/17/2017 at 0:54 PM, nosleepforme said:

don't get the negative response to the episode at all, I thought the finale was a pretty good episode in its own right and I don't think this episode was a filler episode, since it was an episode that showed Hannah struggling with early motherhood and slowly adjusting to the idea of what it means to be a mother, which is a pretty major development for her.

When you put it this way, it isn't horrendous. You are being very fair.

 I just hate Marnie so much.  And Hannah and Marnie together is usually the worst (Hostage being a notable exception). So ending the series on a show when I have to hear Marnie sing, see her have sad video sex, watch her be irritatingly good at swaddling, and basically just be on screen for an extended amount of time without Ray to roll his eyes, was just depressing. I realize she is a comic character, but I like Shosh better for humor.  Marnie makes me violent.  

[marys1000]

I agree on being disappointed in the whole girl mother grandmother thing.  Just like Sex and the City became how to get a man to be happy.  Can women really ever escape this?  That plus what, having a baby fixes your life?  Getting a baby to latch fixes your life?  What?  Hanna was horrible to Marnie and her Mom.  There are way more serious issues btw my mother, sister and myself than this and we've never said anything to each other remotely like this. And as Marnie I would have walked if I got lit into like that.  Seemed very unrealistic to me.   Hanna looked as predicted to be not the greatest or mature mother and I don't think yelling at a teen and finally latching is really going to change that long term.  Marnie was competent as she tends to be.  She should be a high end executive assistant or planner.  

Watched the after talk, still don't understand why last episode wasn't the finale. 

So they pull up to the house which looked to be way out in the country which I thought was weird.   But then Hanna walks to town.  Not good continuity.  

[DianeDobbler]

4 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Very generous analysis.  Maiden, mother, crone. And the crone won.  Mostly. 

It is hard to remember Jenni Konner deserves credit/blame too.  She tends to keep her head down. 

I feel like all my favorite eps this season were written by men. Which bums me out.  I want to support young women writers and creators but between Girls and Insecure, I am at a loss. And a bit depressed. This finale depressed me. I just hope Hannah's mother is ruthless enough to let her flounder but I don't want Grover to suffer needlessly.  Crap, Grover has a hard life ahead of him.  

Putting in a plug for "Chewing Gum" currently on Netflix. 2 seasons. I think each season has only six episodes, so you can burn through them fast, but every word is apparently written by the star, Michaela Coel (she does have a script editor to help her break down the pacing to include commercial breaks). I didn't know what to make of the poster art, showing a twentysomething woman in pigtails and overgrown child's clothing. Anything whimsical like that and sort of magical realism / twee just makes me barf, so I gave it a miss, until one evening I was hard up for a distraction and gave it a try. While there isn't nudity, the show's "no boundaries" sensibility makes both Lena Dunham and Rachel Bloom seem shy, but absolutely none of it is in the realm of exhibitionism, narcissism, or anything close. The heroine is poor, genuinely poor, and the show is hilarious.

ETA I don't find Rachel Bloom either narcissistic or exhibitionistic, but her character does lack boundaries, and exists in the realm of TMI. Chewing Gum makes her look like an amateur, but it's completely believable within the show. Except when it is clearly being farcical for character / comic effect, IMO it is far more recognizable than some of the stuff on Girls. One of the things that is strongest on Chewing Gum is story. There's a lot of sensibility there, and humor, but you can count on a strong narrative through line that pays off.

Edited April 18, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, marys1000 said:

I agree on being disappointed in the whole girl mother grandmother thing.  Just like Sex and the City became how to get a man to be happy.  Can women really ever escape this?  That plus what, having a baby fixes your life?  Getting a baby to latch fixes your life?  What?  Hanna was horrible to Marnie and her Mom.  There are way more serious issues btw my mother, sister and myself than this and we've never said anything to each other remotely like this. And as Marnie I would have walked if I got lit into like that.  Seemed very unrealistic to me.   Hanna looked as predicted to be not the greatest or mature mother and I don't think yelling at a teen and finally latching is really going to change that long term.  Marnie was competent as she tends to be.  She should be a high end executive assistant or planner.  

What bothered me was the idea that middle class white women will be taken care of, regardless of their decisions in life.  Can you imagine of a man of color was walking around the neighborhood without any pants?  It is also not true.  Lena and many of the writers and actors are not middle class.  They come from a world of wealthy privilege and have made the characters in the show middle class to make them more palatable to the average viewer.   Real middle class women of this age bracket are usually struggling financially and unlike these characters are, truly worried about it. They worry about paying off student loans and getting footholds in careers, when opportunity is waning.  They worry about not being paid as much as their male counterparts and how they will provide child care.  The pilot seemed to be about exploring some of these issues, but fantasy finances always makes life easier for the writers.  Poof, Hannah has a magical job, charming house, and steady round the clock child care.  I hate that the AV club gave this episode an A minus.  I feel like the critics have held Lena up as such a darling that they are too afraid to say the empress literally has no clothes.

[IvySpice]

I haven't hated a series finale this much since Seinfeld.

That's largely because I have never bought Allison Williams. She's a terrible actress and has an impossible skinny WASP beauty perfection that makes no sense in this post-Oberlin world. (Jemima Kirke's beauty, now -- different story. I totally buy that.) So triple-dosing the Marnie for me just didn't work. Word to the poster upthread who found the teenage street encounter WAY too on-the-nose and over-acted. My suspension of disbelief shattered.

This episode won't impact the five seasons of truth through farce that I've really enjoyed and admired. There was so much sad reality with Hannah and Adam, with Jessa's path of chaos, etc. Loved it. But this one sucked.

[MelsW]

I hated the finale and hated this season. For a show called GIRLS, the girls were missing this season. It was the season of Hannah and Elijah. How much screen time did Shosh get this season? 5 minutes? I also hate that they went the pregnancy/baby route this season. I thought GIRLS was different and wouldn't fall back to the ol' baby fixes broken person trope, but here we are. I'm not sure who greenlit a series finale that centered around struggling with breastfeeding, but it was a terrible idea.

[Dutchgirl]

1 minute ago, MelsW said:

I'm not sure who greenlit a series finale that centered around struggling with breastfeeding, but it was a terrible idea.

 

The worst. They definitely just phoned it in for the last season. 

[jeansheridan]

38 minutes ago, MelsW said:

I'm not sure who greenlit a series finale that centered around struggling with breastfeeding, but it was a terrible idea.

Kronner did.  She said she had friends with that issue and she thought it was a good hook.  And yeah if this had just been a mod season ep, no problem.  

But hey, they are just two voices.  I think I will rewatch Freaks and Geeks.  

[DianeDobbler]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

What bothered me was the idea that middle class white women will be taken care of, regardless of their decisions in life.  Can you imagine of a man of color was walking around the neighborhood without any pants?  It is also not true.  Lena and many of the writers and actors are not middle class.  They come from a world of wealthy privilege and have made the characters in the show middle class to make them more palatable to the average viewer.   Real middle class women of this age bracket are usually struggling financially and unlike these characters are, truly worried about it. They worry about paying off student loans and getting footholds in careers, when opportunity is waning.  They worry about not being paid as much as their male counterparts and how they will provide child care.  The pilot seemed to be about exploring some of these issues, but fantasy finances always makes life easier for the writers.  Poof, Hannah has a magical job, charming house, and steady round the clock child care.  I hate that the AV club gave this episode an A minus.  I feel like the critics have held Lena up as such a darling that they are too afraid to say the empress literally has no clothes.

It does kill me that a show which purports to have a bit of a veneer of reality, does, like every other show, paper over what is central to every non-financially privileged person entering the world of adulthood. MONEY. People's worlds are organized around that if they don't have a safety net.

It absolutely kills me that Hannah's entire baby arc didn't deal with the issue of child care at all, and it was just handled via magic. That is absolutely the central concern for a single working mother, as Lena Dunham well knows.

Marnie showing up was also magic. Even if she's basically living there free of expenses, she was broke on her ass last we saw her, so how did she get her butt to Hannah's town, who is paying for her mobile phone, how is she paying for her clothing, and where does her walking around money come from? Pfffft! It's magic.

[kieyra]

Just now, jeansheridan said:

Kronner did.  She said she had friends with that issue and she thought it was a good hook.  And yeah if this had just been a mod season ep, no problem.  

But hey, they are just two voices.  I think I will rewatch Freaks and Geeks.  

Pivoting over to rewatch You're The Worst is my brain bleach. :)

It's also probably about time for me to re-binge Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.

5 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I didn't see Hannah smile in the camera coyly, proclaiming "I'm a mother now! My life finally has meaning!".

Maybe I misread the final shot of the series and the expression on Hannah's face. Because this ^ is pretty much what I took away from it. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Goodbye Girls

Does Hannah's breastfeeding agita make this the mother of all series finales, or does it just suck?

[jeansheridan]

26 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

It absolutely kills me that Hannah's entire baby arc didn't deal with the issue of child care at all, and it was just handled via magic. That is absolutely the central concern for a single working mother, as Lena Dunham well knows

Other than that show on Shotime about the big family in Chicago, American shows avoid money issues.  And even on that show things magically work out.  But there is a nod to the working class.  Money issues just aren't funny I guess?   

Shosh commenting last week that she likes her new friends who have jobs and purses was such a perfect summation of her.  She wants friends with drive and goals and an air of success.  She knows herself.  I like that about her.  

[stagmania]

8 hours ago, scrb said:

Hannah finally latched onto parental and adult responsibility in the end?  

I read a review that pointed out that the series basically began by Hannah "unlatching" from her parents, making this a kind of full circle ending. That hadn't occurred to me, but it's an interesting observation.

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

I feel like the critics have held Lena up as such a darling that they are too afraid to say the empress literally has no clothes.

Or they just like the show and think it's well made and has an interesting POV. Again, it's not all about Lena Dunham. A lot of people work on this show.

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

Other than that show on Shotime about the big family in Chicago, American shows avoid money issues.  And even on that show things magically work out.  But there is a nod to the working class.  Money issues just aren't funny I guess?   

Yeah, Shameless is supposed to be about living in poverty, and even they gave up on being realistic about money years ago; probably because it makes the plotting a lot more challenging. The only show I can think of that actually took the depiction of working class financial realities seriously was Roseanne (until that god awful final fantasy season where the family won the lotto).

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

Shosh commenting last week that she likes her new friends who have jobs and purses was such a perfect summation of her.  She wants friends with drive and goals and an air of success.

Well, not really. Success isn't enough for Shosh in the friends department. She wants her friends to be "pretty" and dressed fashionably, with expensive accessories like nice purses. It's all about appearances with Shosh.

Sure, Shosh claims that she wants friends with "nice personalities," but that item comes last when she's describing the desirable attributes of her new squad, after beauty, "nice purses" and "great jobs." In 6x02, Shosh raged at Jessa that had she remained friends with the Jamba Jeans girls, "I could have gone on fancy trips and had friends who cared about me!" In that order. 

Quote

She knows herself. I like that about her.

If you freely acknowledge that you're an asshole, it doesn't make you any less of an asshole. Being self-aware about how superficial she is--and given her "ugly building, gorgeous view" response to Ray and Abigail, I'm not convinced that Shosh is actually self-aware about how shallow she is--doesn't make her any less superficial. Also, it's not as if Shosh is taking any action to remedy her shallow personality; in fact, she brags about how successful she has been in getting her life to align with her own shitty principles and implies that acquiring pretty, successful friends means that she's now better than Hannah and company. There's nothing to admire there.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Eyes High

[wendyg]

Even the 2 BROKE GIRLS had a horse in the series opening episodes. I sat there going, "A horse. In Brooklyn. Where there is no space for manure. And how do they afford hay and stuff for the horse to eat and..." And then I dumped the show.

[Snowball II]

21 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Well, not really. Success isn't enough for Shosh in the friends department. She wants her friends to be "pretty" and dressed fashionably, with expensive accessories like nice purses. It's all about appearances with Shosh.

Sure, Shosh claims that she wants friends with "nice personalities," but that item comes last when she's describing the desirable attributes of her new squad, after beauty, "nice purses" and "great jobs." In 6x02, Shosh raged at Jessa that had she remained friends with the Jamba Jeans girls, "I could have gone on fancy trips and had friends who cared about me!" In that order. 

If you freely acknowledge that you're an asshole, it doesn't make you any less of an asshole. Being self-aware about how superficial she is--and given her "ugly building, gorgeous view" response to Ray and Abigail, I'm not convinced that Shosh is actually self-aware about how shallow she is--doesn't make her any less superficial. Also, it's not as if Shosh is taking any action to remedy her shallow personality; in fact, she brags about how successful she has been in getting her life to align with her own shitty principles and implies that acquiring pretty, successful friends means that she's now better than Hannah and company. There's nothing to admire there.

I would never be friends with Shosh.  This is the same girl who said that a high school friend's death was "okay" because it whittled her group down to the desired number it should have been.  And she said this years later, as an adult who had time to reflect on it.  Despite her ditsy sweet moments, Shosh is really the biggest asshole of the bunch, IMO.

[lucindabelle]

26 minutes ago, wendyg said:

Even the 2 BROKE GIRLS had a horse in the series opening episodes. I sat there going, "A horse. In Brooklyn. Where there is no space for manure. And how do they afford hay and stuff for the horse to eat and..." And then I dumped the show.

That's when I dumped it too. It's honestly as if the writers don't remember what it's like to actually be broke or have money worries, and imagine the rest of America doesn't know.

Tangentially, I'm pissed as Hell with a long-time friend who's been poormouthing me for years... she earns very little money as an actress. I was under the impression that she and her filmmaker husband are scraping by. Just learned he makes $160k a year. All this time her "money woes" are self-esteem issues.

As a journalist with real money woes, I can't even.

I assume Marnie hasn't maxed out her credit cards, but I did find myself wondering about Hannah's furniture.

I resent the "job ex machina." There ARE stories to tell about talented young writers trying to make it. Marnie's plan to go to Law School is realistic. Hannah never has a plan, just insane luck. I buy Adam's arc. I buy Elijah's. I buy Shosh's.

Hannah, not so much. Maybe she should be teaching ESL in China or India (rather than havng a baby right now). But it's rather damaging to suggest this is what happens to good writers who are provocative.

[chocolatine]

53 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

and given her "ugly building, gorgeous view" response to Ray and Abigail

That question was complete bullshit and a person's response to it reveals nothing substantial about them.

[DianeDobbler]

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

That question was complete bullshit and a person's response to it reveals nothing substantial about them.

Amen.

[qtpye]

I feel like the critics have held Lena up as such a darling that they are too afraid to say the empress literally has no clothes.

Quote

Or they just like the show and think it's well made and has an interesting POV. Again, it's not all about Lena Dunh

Quote

am. A lot of people work on this show

In my post I acknowledge that it is a whole group that does not understand the dynamics of middle class millennial women, but she is the show runner and the face of the show.  Just like Vince Gilligan and Mathew Wiener (who did not star in their shows), she will get the lion share of the credit and/or criticism.

I thought this show would explore coming into yourself as a woman in your twenties.  This includes financial struggles. Truthfully, most of it focused on relationships and career goals were just as fantastical as Sex in the City.  The only person who experienced career anxiety was Shosh and her arc in Japan and failing at job interviews was on of my favorite plot lines. 

Hannah and Marnie's artistic career pursuits became jokes.  The Iowa Writer's program became about losing Adam.  If critics have a right to praise what they like, I have a right to disagree...that is sort of the purpose of these boards.

[WhosThatGirl]

Above post; I agree, people were so in love with this show. And I was at one point too. But not this season at all and yet almost every review of episodes praised this season and I wonder if it's because it was the last season.

[kieyra]

Just now, WhosThatGirl said:

Above post; I agree, people were so in love with this show. And I was at one point too. But not this season at all and yet almost every review of episodes praised this season and I wonder if it's because it was the last season.

I thought American Bitch was fantastic and I thought the show would go out with a bang. Then it became the Hannah/Elijah/Marnie/Baby show. 

(By which I just mean there was definitely positive buzz early in the season, and it felt earned. Then it all kind of went poof.)

The only other thing I can really remember liking much now was the Dil storyline, but it was written adorably and Corey Stoll has always been great in that role. 

[lidarose9]

33 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Above post; I agree, people were so in love with this show. And I was at one point too. But not this season at all and yet almost every review of episodes praised this season and I wonder if it's because it was the last season.

Praise for this season is definitely influenced by the end of the show's run. Parts of this series were truly groundbreaking. But there was very little of that going on this season. Much as I was let down by the final season as a whole, there were splendid moments. 

To the people who claim Marnie was showing signs of maturation in the final episode, let's list what we saw her doing. She pushed herself uninvited into Hannah's new life so she could live with her for free. She was taking porn-y selfies in the mirror (so Alison Williams could show us her extremely thin and muscular body ugh), doing phone sex with a guy she would not look at twice in real life, singing in the car (so Alison Williams could sing for us all again one last time yawn), telling Hannah what she was doing wrong, and helping with the baby she could walk away from at any moment. Marnie was running away from life by "helping" Hannah, and you KNOW she will ditch out at a moment's notice as soon as the right guy comes along dangling the right bait (another musician, for example). The comment about law school - Marnie's reasoning is about as deep as that -- "I like rules so I'd be a good lawyer." Marnie will probably find people willing to bail her out for the rest of her life, as long as her looks hold out. She's shallow and selfish. She's not a good friend; she's a leech. I never liked her, never found her remotely amusing or sympathetic in any way. To me all of her storylines were boring. I won't miss her. 

[Coltee Gal]

22 hours ago, Hrairoo said:

Just wanted to add, I liked the fact that Hannah actually named the baby Grover because it sounds like the type of name a millennial hipster living in NYC would name her baby. 

As a Brooklynite- I 100% agree and had the same thought when I heard the baby's name.

[BalsoSnell]

On 4/17/2017 at 0:47 AM, lidarose9 said:

At one time or another all of us had found ourselves with a dick in our hand that we hadn't planned on.

I'm adding this to my book of wisdom, along with "We are all four or five decisions away from pooping in a bucket."

[27bored]

The thing that consistently surprised me is how out of touch Lena, Jenni, and Judd seemed to be with what we just saw. I remember thinking several times towards the end of last season that Hannah was displaying signs of having a personality disorder, but Lena was like, well you know, Hannah's just being her usual quirky, humorous self, and people don't really get it. Like when she showed the principal her cooch last season and Fran was justifiably upset. She was like, Fran just didn't get the humor in it at all. Be...cause...there...is...no...humor...in...showing...your...boss...your...hairy...twat. The fuck? They seemed so impressed and amused by Hannah that I have to wonder if the writers weren't semi-trolling them.

I think "American Bitch" was probably the best episode this season, but that's...not saying anything major. I thought it was obnoxious and predictable and a cop out to make a truly controversial point, which is that adult women shouldn't commiserate over their victim complexes and pretend it's compassion. Not, "oh wow, alleged creepy writer guy is actually a creep..." Phhbbbbt!

[qtpye]

12 hours ago, 27bored said:

The thing that consistently surprised me is how out of touch Lena, Jenni, and Judd seemed to be with what we just saw. I remember thinking several times towards the end of last season that Hannah was displaying signs of having a personality disorder, but Lena was like, well you know, Hannah's just being her usual quirky, humorous self, and people don't really get it. Like when she showed the principal her cooch last season and Fran was justifiably upset. She was like, Fran just didn't get the humor in it at all. Be...cause...there...is...no...humor...in...showing...your...boss...your...hairy...twat. The fuck?

Lena seems to have such a double standard about such things.  If a male employee flashed his penis to a female administrator, I would call it sexual harassment...not great humor.  She seems to think that she is fearless about not having boundaries, but sometimes it is just gross.

[sugarbaker design]

7 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Also, let's not forget that Riz Ahmed's character suggested the name.

When I heard the baby's name was Grover, I was hoping that was suggesting Riz Ahmed's character (totally forgot his name, I know it's a french name with two words like Jean-Luc, but I totally forget) was involved with the baby's upbringing, even in the most remote sense.  I'm glad it was left very vague, not everything needs to be spelled out.

[jeansheridan]

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 7:11 PM, Hrairoo said:

But showing up, period. If it's a right reason, terrif. But in the end it doesn't matter.

I used to believe this was true but after trying to support a friend with addiction I realized I was getting frustrated and judgmental. I was the best because I stuck it out the longest.  Much like what Marine said.  But my attitude was toxic for my friend and me.

 So I think Marnie could become toxic eventually.  Not yet.  I dislike her personality and how she is but she did seem competent and was trying to help.  

[Keepitmoving]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

Lena seems to have such a double standard about such things.  If a male employee flashed his penis to a female administrator, I would call it sexual harassment...not great humor.  She seems to think that she is fearless about not having boundaries, but sometimes it is just gross.

Yeah, I've posted a  couple of times that, that was sexual harassment and that I couldn't believe that after that incident that principal still allowed her in his office alone. Is it because she doesn't have the power because she isn't the boss that it's not sexual harassment?  I don't care, that put him in an awful position, it's not right. I thought he was an idiot to EVER be alone with her again in an office without another staff member, like his assistant principal, and leave the door open. How can you not legally cover yourself after an incident like that? But of course he wouldn't because Lena wrote that as Hannah just being her free, expressive self, yeah, NO.

34 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

When I heard the baby's name was Grover, I was hoping that was suggesting Riz Ahmed's character (totally forgot his name, I know it's a french name with two words like Jean-Luc, but I totally forget) was involved with the baby's upbringing, even in the most remote sense.  I'm glad it was left very vague, not everything needs to be spelled out.

When I heard the baby's name I thought that Hannah wanted to give the baby something from its father. That when she has to talk to Grover about his father, she can at least say that his father cared enough to give him a name. I picture Grover traveling around to beaches looking out into the waves for his father. Grover was precious and did Hannah not say at the doctor's office that he was born a ten pound baby? I think I heard that, and wow.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[DianeDobbler]

You know, Lena Dunham seems to follow the Matthew Weiner school of show runner-ing in that she'll tell you what you saw wasn't what you saw or didn't mean what you thought it did, or that something happened that you didn't see happen - she'll narrate what occurred in a scene and what it meant, and how it justified the next step, even though in conventional (or even skilled unconventional) narrative terms it was unearned. But the show was good at giving us characters and creating an environment and being outrageous, which also worked for Matthew Weiner.

But what I don't believe is that these people believe their own bullshit. They just think they can bullshit us. Here's another example, Michael Patrick King gives a lot of commentary on Sex and the City DVDs. I have a bunch of them from a few years ago. He comments on the Baryshnikov story as if it were a romance - the end scene of one tense episode that showed Carrie on a sleigh with him had King commenting that the scene showed it WAS a romance, it was legit, despite the doubts of her friends. Now to me, the entire episode said something else completely - the guy was toxic and Carrie was being escapist.

Then there was Miranda's ex-boyfriend, who lived in her building, who she dumped for her final reunion with Steve. There was an episode when Steve and Miranda kept running into the guy and he acted like a douchebag. King said, on the dvd, that the guy was right, and he brought the guy back to have his say. That, also, seemed weird to me seeing as the guy came off completely unsympathetically.

FF to when the movie is coming out and King is in the NY Daily News walking us down memory lane about different episodes. WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY. He says they did the Baryshnikov story because some fans thought Chris Noth (Mr. Big) was too old for Carrie, so they wanted to give Carrie a love interest that made Mr. Big seem young and romantic for the finale.

He said he brought back Miranda's boyfriend to bury him, to let us see that he was such a dick they would never ever ever be getting back together. (I guess because until Miranda dumped him, he'd been portrayed as sort of a sweetheart, so King wanted to make sure we knew he was the wrong guy for her).

King was rattling off a series of narrative agendas that were completely, totally obvious for any audience member to grasp at the time the show aired, but at the time the show aired AND when it went to DVD, he was still pushing spin out there and gaslighting the audience. Only when sufficient years had passed did he cop to what the audience could see for themselves but he had denied. I've got a few twists and turns in Mad Men that I'm pretty sure happened for agenda reasons and I'm sure the same is for Girls. Television is always collaborative but the show runner is the show runner and a collaborative process has never stopped someone from being "first among equals" or for various members of the team to get their licks in. It's not always 100% professional (although King's own agendas were narrative ones, he wanted to deny the machinery to the audience, I guess).

[luna1122]

4 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

 

But what I don't believe is that these people believe their own bullshit. They just think they can bullshit us. Here's another example, Michael Patrick King gives a lot of commentary on Sex and the City DVDs. I have a bunch of them from a few years ago. He comments on the Baryshnikov story as if it were a romance - the end scene of one tense episode that showed Carrie on a sleigh with him had King commenting that the scene showed it WAS a romance, it was legit, despite the doubts of her friends. Now to me, the entire episode said something else completely - the guy was toxic and Carrie was being escapist.

Then there was Miranda's ex-boyfriend, who lived in her building, who she dumped for her final reunion with Steve. There was an episode when Steve and Miranda kept running into the guy and he acted like a douchebag. King said, on the dvd, that the guy was right, and he brought the guy back to have his say. That, also, seemed weird to me seeing as the guy came off completely unsympathetically.

FF to when the movie is coming out and King is in the NY Daily News walking us down memory lane about different episodes. WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY. He says they did the Baryshnikov story because some fans thought Chris Noth (Mr. Big) was too old for Carrie, so they wanted to give Carrie a love interest that made Mr. Big seem young and romantic for the finale.

He said he brought back Miranda's boyfriend to bury him, to let us see that he was such a dick they would never ever ever be getting back together. (I guess because until Miranda dumped him, he'd been portrayed as sort of a sweetheart, so King wanted to make sure we knew he was the wrong guy for her).

 

That's all so weird. I never thought Barishnikov was toxic--he and Carrie weren't a great match, but I thought she was more in error in the whole relationship than he ever was, and was indeed being escapist so she wouldn't wind up--quelle horreur!--single--and the whole 'he makes Chris Noth look young' thing is patently absurd, not to mention, the age differences between Noth and SJP is not that great, nor is the one between Noth and Barishnikov. I also didn't think Robert--Miranda's ex-- was a bad guy, even in that last episode, unless he really DID break the TV screen, which it was never shown he did. In both cases, I thought the women came off worse than the men.

Interesting tho about the complete bullshit the showrunners sometimes spout, just to justify, I suppose, or prevaricate, or blow smoke. I don't generally listen to DVD commentaries, probably for just this reason.

[sugarbaker design]

7 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

Interesting tho about the complete bullshit the showrunners sometimes spout, just to justify, I suppose, or prevaricate, or blow smoke. I don't generally listen to DVD commentaries, probably for just this reason.

Seriously, isn't watching the source material enough?  If they hadn't made their point in the narrative, who cares what they think?

[taanja]

On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 9:38 PM, woodscommaelle said:

Delvin.  Could there be a better name for someone Marnie is interested in?

Show, I'll miss you! This may have been one of my favorite episodes of the series.

Completely agree! I loved it. It was a perfect ending. Ambiguous is the word. I thought this episode fit with all the others before it. Life goes on -- oh blah dee oh blah da!

You see...no one ever really changes. They are the same all their life long. The same traits. The same method of solving or not solving life's problems. The same basic personality you started with is the same personality your going to end with! That is exactly what this was. Just another day in the life of Hannah Horvath. She is who she is even after having a child. Her mother said it best--  who told you /promised you life would be easy?

Haha! And Marnie! I love your self involved self! She was singing in the car to her own song--right? Haha! and Hannah tells her to stop and she says-- I feel like you don't mean that! (Not verbatim) I am going to miss that character.

Grover! Wow!

Good job show. Well done.

[chocolatine]

8 hours ago, taanja said:

Haha! And Marnie! I love your self involved self! She was singing in the car to her own song--right?

No! That song was Fast Car by Tracy Chapman - a Grammy-winning hit from the late 80s. Marnie should be so lucky.

Edited April 20, 2017 by chocolatine