S06.E06: Full Disclosure

[tennisgurl]

This one wasn't quite as good as some past episodes we`ve gotten this season, but I still enjoyed it, even if it did seem to be rushing things to get to the finish line.

It was nice seeing Elijah be supportive of Hannah and them making up after that brutal fight last week, but it just happened so fast. It went from the fight to Elijah apologizing without seeing how he got from one place to the next. It would have been nice to have them still tense with each other, and see Elijah come around by the end of the episode. Oh well, it was still a nice scene (although what is up with people in this show and their aversion to wearing pants?!) and I liked seeing Elijah at his day job. He really is a good actor, better than his friend who is apparently an actor already.

5 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

I wonder if Andrew Rannells asked Lena Dunham to give him a scene where he could show that he has a lot more range than just the vain, queeny gay stereotype, so he doesn't get typecast.

Heh, I thought the same thing. "Lena, can I PLEASE have one scene where I show people I can play characters other then Sassy Gay BFFs?!?!" . Just confirms to me that more Elijah is always a good idea.

Is Shoshana even in New York anymore, or did she run off to Japan again and not tell anyone? I know we saw her for one scene last week, but she could have been a hologram! I also laughed at Marnie and Hannah talking about Ray, with Marnie being like "How could Ray have dumped me?!" and Hannah was like "Maybe because you were awful to him constantly?" However, this did lead to Marnie actually making a good point, followed by Adam and her dads BF. Its hardly patriarchal to not even tell water sports guy that he is having a kid. No ones saying she has to marry him or anything, she should just let the guy know what's going on, and give him a chance to be involved with the kid if he wants to. Other than that, I think Hannah is actually coming off pretty well here, at least as far as Hannah is.

I think Jessa and Adams movie looks pretty crappy, but maybe its just not my taste. It comes off as rather "Mumblecore", the nebulously defined cinematic movement that birthed Lena and friends. I don't think its supposed to be bad, I think its just that particular style, which, to me, is very hit or miss. I would be interested if this ends with Adam realizing through the movie that he still loves Hannah, but Hannah realizing she doesn't want to be with him anymore. I'm not sure if Adam/Hannah with be endgame, but I can see it going either way. As long as Adam doesn't run across the city to rescue Hannah from anything, I'm good.

[Mindthinkr]

I am with the people that stated that they miss Shoshanna. I had hoped that she would open a Cat Café a la her experience working in one while in Japan. 

[Pallas]

6 hours ago, cardigirl said:

So we have no way of knowing if that is really what happened when they met, or if that is filtered through Adam's need to tell the story of a 'love so great, it couldn't last.'   Again I say, hmmmm.

I'm guessing that the circumstances of the movie, the who-what-when-where, are as Adam remembers them. That's a little bit of what he wants Hannah to confirm. Most of all he's at least pretending to pursue that chimera, "resolution." There's no such thing. There's only the way each of us remembers it, and that changes too.

Of course what Adam really seems to want now isn't resolution but renewal. Or maybe a resolution to renew. His tactics for engaging Hannah -- "Let's agree to disagree about the past, on purpose and a lot!" -- may work. Through every phase of their affair, Hannah and Adam questioned each other, from morning to night. Which is a different thing from histrionic fighting, Jessa; a different thing from bitter feuding, Marnie. It's already worked: conflicted, with one eye closed, Hannah opened her laptop to him.

Now it's up to Hannah to decide how to resolve, for herself, the truth of this: "If it hurts, you'll always remember."  Yes you will. Then what.

[SlackerInc]

2 hours ago, TomGirl said:

In case you haven't seen Andrew Rannells' show-stopping performance in Book of Mormon, here's a sample:

I hadn't seen that, but it's much more in line with the kind of musical-theatre type acting I would more stereotypically expect from someone like Elijah/Rannells.  The dramatic reading he did with his coworker was unexpected and impressive.

[kieyra]

5 hours ago, Lunula said:

This has been bugging me to no-end the past couple of episodes...I thought that Hannah went to the Hamptons and the guy she met/slept with, Paul-Louis, was a surfing instructor, no? Why do they keep calling him a water-ski instructor? 

Not sure how I feel about the Adam/Hannah stuff. Their relationship was always so incredibly unhealthy, but it's obvious he still cares about her opinion and watching the movie definitely brought up feelings for her, as well.

Why is the show making both Marnie & Jessa look like such horrible people? Granted, Marnie has never been very self-actualized, and Jessa has always been a narcissist - but this season seems to be going overboard to paint them as wholly unlikable and shitty. 

I vaguely remember that the surfing thing was just a short gig for the father, and I thought he told Hannah about his main job at a resort as a ski instructor. (Bahamas? Something like that?) And isn't that where the girlfriend is?

[RedDelicious]

I totally agree Allison Williams = not sexy.  She's a pretty skeleton with a flat bum.  Also in the scene outside of the New Jersey club, when Desi was on the ground, you could see her feet in the background in flesh colored flip flops and she became noticeably shorter later in the scene because she wasn't wearing the tall heels she was shown in earlier when they were outside.

Re: Adam in the movie, I felt like there was a degree of emotion in his eyes that we did not see when he and Hannah were actually dating.  Maybe he's romanticizing their relationship on film now that it is gone, more so than he ever did when it was happening.  And it's driving Jessa crazy.

I never liked Jessa and I never liked Jemima Kirke.  To me, smug is one of the worst personality characteristics.  I was cheering for Hannah in that scene.  Jessa just needs to be off my screen.

I really like Ray and Shoshana as friends.  I'm looking forward to her happy ending and I want it to be Shosh from here on out, even though it probably won't.  I really enjoy Zosia Mamet.  I don't need to see anymore Jessa and I'm so tired of Marnie.  I actually don't mind the Desi scenes because he's so good in his role.  That's all I have for now.

[stagmania]

18 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

This! Adam and Hannah aren't a love story. There was a brief moment in season 3 where he was sweet and nice to her but then he realized it was unhealthy for him to only exist to take care of her, he couldn't do his acting and worry about her needs constantly and Hannah had to realize she was incredibly codependent on him to always be there to help her. So their romance was never all that healthy, season 3 was probably the only time it looked a little remotely healthy but once we got a closeup on it, it wasn't.

I really disagree with this. Adam and Hannah absolutely were a love story, and a pretty serious one at that. Rewatching the early seasons is a very good reminder of how deep their relationship actually was. And I think it's too simplistic to paint it with the broad brush of "unhealthy". No relationship on Girls is meant to be a model to aspire to. As @Slovenly Muse so eloquently laid out, in a lot of ways Hannah and Adam were very well-suited for each other. 

11 hours ago, luna1122 said:

I liked the Hannah/Jessa scene. Jessa mostly deserves Hannah shutting her down, tho I'm unclear, still, on just how bad Jessa's friend-crime was. Hannah dumped Adam, Jessa didn't steal him. I'm not into snatching up your friends' past boyfriends, just in general, but nobody seems to care that Marnie did it to Shoshonna, and this is an ethically challenged group of friends anyway.

IMO it was about as bad a friend crime as one can commit, and I don't really get why people keep trying to lessen it by comparing it to Shoshannah/Marnie. Hannah was in love with Adam. He broke her heart. She broke up with him because he moved another women into her apartment while she was away- not because she got bored or fell out of love after a couple months (hello, Shoshannah/Ray). For one of her best friends to date him is a huge betrayal on its own, and then Jessa made it so much worse with all the hiding and lying and trying to make it Hannah's fault. If Jessa expressed some real remorse and truly came to Hannah to make amends, I'd be interested in seeing that. But that is not what she did here, and as things stand I hope Hannah was being sincere about not caring anymore.

9 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Personally, I view the movie as a rewrite of their relationship from Adam. Hannah wanted Adam to be her boyfriend long before he actually acquiesed to it, and he was pretty boorish to her (and we were shown that behavior with another girl that certainly was viewed by her as abuse).  He's made this movie about how deep his feelings were for her, but what we were shown for a lot of that was that he didn't communicate that to Hannah. It just feels weird to see this sweetness between them that didn't actually show up til he moved in and then "rescued" her when she perforated her eardrum.

LOL actually, your description is the rewrite. Hannah pretty much realized she wanted Adam to be her boyfriend in the same episode that it happened (you may recall him shouting something along the lines of "What do you want? Do you want me to be your boyfriend?"). He expressed sincere feelings for her starting in the latter end of season 1, more than a full season before the big rescue. He was the one who was ready to be all in as soon as she said she wanted a relationship, and Hannah is the one who started to lose interest initially when he did. Adam was definitely aggressively weird in season 1, but he was also aggressively into Hannah.

Echoing everyone who misses Shoshannah. I hope she gets some real story time before the end.

Edited March 20, 2017 by stagmania

[ichbin]

Wait....what?  Hannah isn't aware that the withdrawal method of birth control is pretty much just another way of getting pregnant?   

[kieyra]

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

 

Marnie's storyline is really boring. I actually like Allison Williams and I do like how unlikeable they have made Marnie over the seasons, but she's kind of stuck in this awful musician/Desi-storyline. I thought they'd take Marnie into a new direction after the wonderful bottle episode with Charlie that they had last season, but they've failed to take her character forward or have her draw any consequences for herself from the bad relationship she has had with Desi. 

Preach. I recognize that some people think the actor is some sort of comedic genius in this role, but at this point it's just like "Oh, here's this douchebag again, where's my FF button?"

Lately that means a lot of episodes are only about ten minutes long for me. 

[DianeDobbler]

I did like this episode and have a little more faith in Hannah's ability to pull this mommy thing off. She seems to be supporting herself as a writer - she's not making a fortune, but she's steadily producing articles and doing interviews, and getting a good set of clippings (Esquire and The NY TImes are good).  All of a sudden what we see of her life is more reality-based - she's pulled together and out the door on time to do her interview; she's prepped for it, she's working on it late at night.  I like the lower-key, drama free Hannah. I really really REALLY do not want her to get back with Adam. I just don't see him fitting in with who she appears to be becoming. She has a reasonable support system - Elijah is on board, her father and his partner are in town. As long as Hannah is paying her rent and pretty much works at home, this could be achievable. I also enjoyed some of the snark on her and Elijah's potential as parents - how Hannah thinks her kid better be a girl or a super gay boy, or the ways in which she's bound to screw up her kid.

I just don't get Jessa. The Jessa I really liked was the one who assisted Louise Lasser's older artist, AND the one who was cautious about getting involved with Adam. This Jessa is going back to being a cartoon.

But not as much a cartoon as Marni. Allison Williams is just the worst actress. All this time on Girls and she still comes across as a glorified amateur, particularly next to Rita Wilson. Wilson isn't even a world beater as an actress, but she IS an actress, Williams still comes off as high school play level. When she snapped her fingers at Desi I rolled my eyes.

That looked like a Desi farewell - after many false farewells - he even got some music on his exit. So maybe he's done. If he is, though, I think that Marni's career is done. The truth is that Desi, even though he describes himself as a fraud, is the one with talent. He had acting talent (was cast on Broadway), he had more musical talent than she does.

When her character's hair was blown out for the party and dressed up, Rita Wilson looked distractingly like Jennifer Aniston.

I really miss Shoshanna. I totally know that Zosia Mamet was not originally meant to be one of the main girls, but that was six years ago, and Lena Dunham is a writer who is perfectly capable of writing Shoshanna, but doesn't. Shoshanna fits into the fabric of the world Dunham created.There is nothing in the arcs of Marnie and Hannah that need to have the entire table cleared to the exclusion of the others. Marnie's is just the same thing over and over and over. At least Hannah is changing. There are countless characters who were "never meant to be" one thing or another, but because of what the performer brought to it, that changed. Girls should write towards what changed, or they should never have kept her.

I do not see Adam / Hannah as a love story. I never bought their second act - the one where they were living together and then she left him to go to the writers program in Idaho. I bought their dysfunctional / weird initial sexual relationship - but was never all that convinced by Adam's development, even though Driver is a good actor. In general I've always had problems buying into the Adam character, although intermittent phases he went through were sometimes entertaining.

PS - Great to see Jasmine Cephus-Jones as Elijah's co-worker. I love her singing voice, and I got to watch her Hamilton performance when someone on youtube uploaded nearly every single number from a live performance of the Broadway cast. She was delightful, witty and expressive as Peggy with very few lines, and compelling as the woman who "brought Hamilton down" in a way - Maria Reynolds. We first see Maria walking, and there's so much history and backstory evident in the decided yet contained way Cephus-Jones walked, you can't help imagining what happened to set her walking down the street to Hamilton's house. Definitely more than the damsel in distress routine she put on when he sees her. All that in a walk.

Edited March 21, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[AmandaPanda]

7 hours ago, LaJefaza said:

I'm really, really behind on this show. Have they revealed who Hannah's baby's father is?

Paul-Louis, the surfing/water ski instructor Hannah slept with in the first episode this season.

[luna1122]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

 

IMO it was about as bad a friend crime as one can commit, and I don't really get why people keep trying to lessen it by comparing it to Shoshannah/Marnie. Hannah was in love with Adam. He broke her heart. She broke up with him because he moved another women into her apartment while she was away- not because she got bored or fell out of love after a couple months (hello, Shoshannah/Ray)

 

That's not really my recollection of how things went down with them, and I might be wrong, or at least, it might have been open to debate, cuz it's not clear. Hannah left for the writer's retreat, and they seemed to have a weird 'on a break' situation, where they didn't have any contact with each other and maybe agreed to see other people, tho that also was not clear( there was just some line from Hannah at a party that indicated to me that she figured she might as well sleep with other people cuz he was, or something). It seemed really clear to me that Adam believed Hannah had broken up with him. Now, his breaking down walls and more or less moving Mimi Rose in was weird and wrong and too fast and stupid, but I think he believed he wasn't doing anything wrong. And he and Jessa taking up with each other was very hurtful, would be for anyone. But all of these girls are essentially such kind of terrible people in so many ways that I just don't pile it onto Jessa. They all suck. I still like watching them tho. And I thought Shosh and Ray WERE a serious couple.

 

I just realized that Marnie's mom's ska-band blonde floozy friend Sharva was Azura Skye (best/worst mostly fake name ever). I loved her in '28 Days', I thought she was so touching, and I really thought she'd become a star. she's worked since then but did not have the career trajectory I'd thought she might. And it's funny that she's nearly half Rita Wilson's age (and only a few years older than Allison Williams)--of course Marnie's mom would be besties with someone young enuf to be her daughter.

Hannah using the pull out method is so disturbing. It's a wonder UTIs are all she's gotten infected with. And her judgey-ness over Paul Louis' less than stable job and 'weird' days off of Thursday and Tuesday was annoying, as she and none of her friends have ever, as far as I can tell, had a steady job.

[stagmania]

8 hours ago, luna1122 said:

And I thought Shosh and Ray WERE a serious couple.

I actually thought so, too. They definitely were in my memory, but I think I blew it up a little because I liked the pairing so much. Upon rewatching, they actually only dated for a few months, and Shosh started losing interest in him and then cheating on him a few episodes after they had their big vow of love moment. They were nowhere near the level of Adam/Hannah, and Marnie and Shosh aren't close friends like Jessa and Hannah were. It's probably why Ray and Shosh were able to be friends with relative ease-they had a lot of mutual affection, but they weren't some big dramatic love affair.

You're definitely right that Hannah and Adam weren't in a great place when he lost his mind and started up with Mimi Rose, but they weren't broken up and Hannah was absolutely hurt beyond belief at what he did. The specific details elude me, and I haven't gotten there in my rewatch yet. Regardless, I don't think that really changes the nature of Jessa's betrayal.

Edited March 21, 2017 by stagmania

[DianeDobbler]

Well, I think Hannah mentioning Paul Louis's days off was meant to tell us that her life had a lot more structure than it used to have. It's kind of a small thing - her spending so much of this episode not having time for other people's bullshit because she was busy working, but I guess that's the new thing we're supposed to understand about Hannah. She's seeking and getting assignments, and she's showing up for them - not only was she rushing away from Adam, but I could see that for Hannah, she was pulled together. Her hair was in a style, her outfit required thought. I also like that her work life is not some fantasy. She doesn't have a book contract, she's not appearing on TV, she's not doing anything television-glamorous or super lucrative, but she's earning a living with writing and building up her credits. 

I was wondering about Sharva. I kept thinking she was remarkably young looking to be the age of Marnie's mom, but she's not that age, and that explains it.

Shoshanna and Ray were serious. They were in love. There was ultimately, at the time, too much of an age and experience gap, but the connection was genuine. I believe he was her first sexual experience (at least to completion). There was also the conversation the two of them had in bed while Marnie was in the room, talking to Marnie about what jobs might be available to her because of her looks. "Not MODEL, but something." I think if you've stood in a bedroom where your friend and her boyfriend are in bed together talking to you, it adds another layer of "Don't sleep with that guy after your friend breaks up with him."

Hannah and Adam were always an undefined mess. When they were first together, the highest she rose in status was "favorite hang." I can't even remember all of the other permutations the relationship took. When she moved to Idaho, that's it, come on. Each of them had several layers of other relationships by the time Jessa / Adam happened. I think it had more to do with who Jessa is and what she represents to Hannah than the fact that a friend was banging Adam. It went to Jessa being the girl who was conventionally beautiful and got away with everything, and how Hannah felt that might have reflected on her. If a significant ex moves on from you to a "just" a friend of yours, it might be one thing, but to move onto the girl who always had a power over men you lacked is another deal entirely. But in the world Dunham has created, I understand that schtupping friends' exes is bad.

Edited March 21, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

On 3/19/2017 at 11:02 PM, OriginalChaos said:

I didn't realize just how much I wanted Hannah & Adam to be endgame until that last scene. It's like I was right there with Hannah falling for him all over again (before he lost his gd mind & got together with Mimi Rose & knocked out a wall). Adam's such a messy ass mess but so is Hannah (in an interesting, engaging way, not like the WTFery that is Marnie & Dez).

I'm feeling much better about a possible Hannah & Adam end game....but that's only because I'm buying whatever Adam Driver is selling. He played the scene where he found out Hannah is pregnant & the scene detailing how they met in a way that made me want to root for Hannah & Adam in a way I haven't in a while. If they do end up together & I end up happy about it, it will only be because Adam Driver has really become a great actor over the past seasons & has sold me on (another) Adam/Hannah reunion.

I'm still 'shipping Shosh & Ray more though. I'm gonna pretend they weren't in the episode because they were hanging out together somewhere alone, laughing about many of the other characer's immaturity and reminiscing about Herbie.

Did anyone else think that Desi was gonna ride off on his bike high out of his mind and crash and die? Cause I was a little worried about that with his foreboding whisper of "Bye, Marn." I'm going to need to see him again before the series ends just to make sure he didn't end up jumping or falling off of a bridge after he walked away. I used to loathe Desi but now I think the ridiculousness of the character is amazing & the actor is soooo good.

It's obvious that's Rita Wilson had a blast playing Marnie's mom in this episode. I love when you can tell how much fun an actor is having when it's a ridiculous character they're playing. The actor playing Desi is likewise having fun. And both characters seem to be in on it that Marnie.Is.The.Worst. It's fun enough to hate-watch Marnie at home, but to get to hate-act with her character has to be fun (not implying they dislike Allison Williams, just Marnie the character). 

Edited March 21, 2017 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[WhosThatGirl]

I'm not into Adam and Hannah reuniting and once again I feel alone in that. I'm just so ambivalent on this season actually. Nothing really makes me excited or anything. There are brief funny moments or things I like but I enjoyed last season so much more these this lukewarm feeling I have. I just feel very disconnected from it. I mean I dislike the pregnancy storyline for various reasons I have said but I mean.. the whole season is just more of a big meh for me. 

[LilaFowler]

I've also noticed that Hannah's apartment has been clean and straightened up since she found out that she was pregnant.  In this episode, her bed was neatly made and everything.  Her place used to be completely disgusting.

[TVbitch]

Adam spent forever following Jessa around like a lovesick puppy to the point of stalking her to AA meetings. So now that he's won her over and they appear to be living together, it's a great time to start stalking Hannah and making inappropriate protestations that she is not over him. Dude, fucking sort yourself out! Go on walkabout or find your spirit animal or something.   

[luna1122]

9 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Well, I think Hannah mentioning Paul Louis's days off was meant to tell us that her life had a lot more structure than it used to have. It's kind of a small thing - her spending so much of this episode not having time for other people's bullshit because she was busy working, but I guess that's the new thing we're supposed to understand about Hannah.

I get that, and that's nice, that she's finally growing up a little...but her judgement of Paul Louis' hours and job are not yet earned. Her being responsible for approximately only ten minutes, and not one of her friends having remotely matured doesn't mean she gets to feel morally superior to him, which is how it came off to me.

7 hours ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I'm feeling much better about a possible Hannah & Adam end game....but that's only because I'm buying whatever Adam Driver is selling. He played the scene where he found out Hannah is pregnant & the scene detailing how they met in a way that made me want to root for Hannah & Adam in a way I haven't in a while. If they do end up together & I end up happy about it, it will only be because Adam Driver has really become a great actor over the past seasons & has sold me on (another) Adam/Hannah reunion.

 

He is so good. On another level good. Which is why I wonder if we're supposed to think aspiring-actor-Adam is actually on level with the real Adam, is really THAT good. One of my fave scenes between he and Jessa was when she was watching him on that L&O type show and seemed shocked and pleased with how talented he was. Anyway, I already mentioned this once, but if you can see Driver in 'Paterson', do it. He's amazing.

 

7 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I'm not into Adam and Hannah reuniting and once again I feel alone in that.

Not remotely alone. I think for every person who has posted they'd like to see them as endgame, another has mentioned they do not. I don't.

[Pallas]

We Remember Hannah and Adam, or, "What the Fuck is Wrong with You."  

1) Season 1: Hannah pursues Adam as a rough-fantasy partner, or something, throughout the season; he alternately evades, torments and indulges her. In the finale, at Jessa's wedding, Hannah and Adam have it out about where they stand. Hannah shrugs that she never imagined their being an actual couple, because "I didn't think you were into it." Adam, volatile and deadpan: "You didn't think I was into what -- love?" Adam's exit in high dudgeon is interrupted by a bus. As he's loaded into an ambulance, he yells at the EMT's, "Keep her away from me! She's a monster!" Hannah carries on: after falling asleep on the subway and waking up without her purse at Coney Island, she makes do alone with a few bites of wedding cake, on the beach.

2) Season 2: Hannah and Adam are apart throughout. In the finale, Hannah, collapsed into OCD, calls Adam by mistake as she circles the drain. After getting an answer to his brusque but not rhetorical, "What the fuck is wrong with you," Adam takes off across Brooklyn by foot and subway, shirtlessly facetiming with Hannah throughout, and breaks into her apartment. Hannah: "You're here." Adam: "I always was." 

3) Season 3: Hannah and Adam live together until they don't, when Adam lands a role on Broadway and moves back to his old apartment for the duration of rehearsals (he says), to focus on the role and escape Hannah's insecurities. In the finale, shortly before curtain on Adam's opening night, Hannah lets him know that she applied to and has been accepted by the Iowa Writers' Workshop, the top creative writing MFA program. Adam loses it, and afterwards blames Hannah for what he thinks was his terrible performance, stalking off up stage door alley. Hannah carries on: she returns home and spends the night with her Iowa acceptance letter.

4) Season 4: Hannah and Adam leave it open as she heads off to Iowa City, with Adam staying in her apartment. During Hannah's brief tenure sojourn, Jessa introduces Adam to Mimi-Rose, in the hope that Mimi-Rose will ditch her boyfriend Ace for Adam, and Jessa will land Ace, because he's played by Zachary Quinto. Hannah returns to Brooklyn after a month to find Mimi-Rose living with Adam in her apartment. In the finale, Hannah, Adam and Jessa -- each single again -- help deliver Adam's sister and her baby from a not-well-thought-out home birth. Over the baby's incubator in the NICU, Adam asks Hannah to reunite. She says, simply, "I can't." Hannah carries on: in a flash forward, she's seen hand-in-hand with her teaching colleague, Jan Fran. 

5) Season 5: Hannah is living with Fran, while Adam pursues Jessa at AA until they ignite; not long after Hannah discovers they're a couple, she breaks up with Fran: he of the not-well-thought-out idea about a summer-long road trip, just the two of them. In the finale, Adam and Jessa throw down about their guilt and Jessa's declaration that she will always have Hannah in her life, while Hannah carries on: at The Moth, she performs her first finished piece in more than a year, about the three of them.

[Eucrid]

I'm glad Marnie is still awful. I really don't want to see redemptive arcs for everyone, thats just not realistic. Hannah I can accept because I always think she was trying to be better than she was. People like Marnie stay like Marnie though. Same goes for Jessa.

I hope the ending wasn't supposed to show that Adam has made an amazing film. That would be another seriously annoying finish to his story.

I really like the Hannah is going to have a baby story. Its at least unexpected. I'd like to see the show end with her having the baby and being happy with that. She doesn't need a man yet, she certainly doesn't need to get back with Adam.

There are so many potentially terrible endings for Girls, I really hope they manage to avoid them. I love the show, I don't think theres been a bad season and I'd like to see it go out on a high note.

[Lily247]

IMO, the character who has grown up the most in this show of the 4 girls is Shoshanna. If you compare season 1 with now, it really is striking. Her entrie demeanor is a little more chilled out and relaxed and her own professional failures and experiences has made her less uptight. I am not sure if she and Ray should end up together - I liked her with that soup salesman way better, and I think Ray needs a more grownup type of woman than any of these 'girls".

I have never really liked Hannah's charachter at all. I just see someone who is borderline mentally ill. Also, despite her seeming to "have her shit together" for 10 minutes or so, she wrote down in her list that she will make less than $24k this year. So, her writing gigs may be a job for her but it barely pays anyways. I would say that Paul Louis has his shit together just as much as Hannah if not more so, as he has a steady job and is content with his free-spirit life. Also, I get that Hannah is super-liberal and believes that every woman has a right to her own body, but thinking she has the right to not inform the father of her child that he is a father is down right low. It also shows exactly what kind of mother she will be. The way I see the ending going, it'll be like this:
Hannah will end up moving back to Michigan so her mother can help her raise the baby and basically be a boomerang millenial
Paul Louis will be a part of her child's life (I dont think it is an accident that he is also from Michigan)

[qtpye]

I really hope we have seen the last of Desi.  I never liked the character and the pairing has made Marnie into a cartoon.

In the next episode preview we see

Spoiler

Marnie is broke.  So those two hour massages and exercise classes were things she really can not afford.

Edited March 21, 2017 by qtpye

[hoodooznoodooz]

6 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I really hope we have seen the last of Desi.  I never liked the character and the pairing has made Marnie into a cartoon.

In the next episode preview we see Marnie is broke.  So those two hour massages and exercise classes were things she really can not afford.

I never liked the Desi character either. He's all over the place, and none of it seems logical or  organic.

Ugh. I have NO patience for people who spend beyond their means.  

3 hours ago, Pallas said:

We Remember Hannah and Adam, or, "What the Fuck is Wrong with You."  

1) Season 1: Hannah pursues Adam as a rough-fantasy partner, or something, throughout the season; he alternately evades, torments and indulges her. In the finale, at Jessa's wedding, Hannah and Adam have it out about where they stand. Hannah shrugs that she never imagined their being an actual couple, because "I didn't think you were into it." Adam, volatile and deadpan: "You didn't think I was into what -- love?" Adam's exit in high dudgeon is interrupted by a bus. As he's loaded into an ambulance, he yells at the EMT's, "Keep her away from me! She's a monster!" Hannah carries on: after falling asleep on the subway and waking up without her purse at Coney Island, she makes do alone with a few bites of wedding cake, on the beach.

2) Season 2: Hannah and Adam are apart throughout. In the finale, Hannah, collapsed into OCD, calls Adam by mistake as she circles the drain. After getting an answer to his brusque but not rhetorical, "What the fuck is wrong with you," Adam takes off across Brooklyn by foot and subway, shirtlessly facetiming with Hannah throughout, and breaks into her apartment. Hannah: "You're here." Adam: "I always was." 

3) Season 3: Hannah and Adam live together until they don't, when Adam lands a role on Broadway and moves back to his old apartment for the duration of rehearsals (he says), to focus on the role and escape Hannah's insecurities. In the finale, shortly before curtain on Adam's opening night, Hannah lets him know that she applied to and has been accepted by the Iowa Writers' Workshop, the top creative writing MFA program. Adam loses it, and afterwards blames Hannah for what he thinks was his terrible performance, stalking off up stage door alley. Hannah carries on: she returns home and spends the night with her Iowa acceptance letter.

4) Season 4: Hannah and Adam leave it open as she heads off to Iowa City, with Adam staying in her apartment. During Hannah's brief tenure sojourn, Jessa introduces Adam to Mimi-Rose, in the hope that Mimi-Rose will ditch her boyfriend Ace for Adam, and Jessa will land Ace, because he's played by Zachary Quinto. Hannah returns to Brooklyn after a month to find Mimi-Rose living with Adam in her apartment. In the finale, Hannah, Adam and Jessa -- each single again -- help deliver Adam's sister and her baby from a not-well-thought-out home birth. Over the baby's incubator in the NICU, Adam asks Hannah to reunite. She says, simply, "I can't." Hannah carries on: in a flash forward, she's seen hand-in-hand with her teaching colleague, Jan Fran. 

5) Season 5: Hannah is living with Fran, while Adam pursues Jessa at AA until they ignite; not long after Hannah discovers they're a couple, she breaks up with Fran: he of the not-well-thought-out idea about a summer-long road trip, just the two of them. In the finale, Adam and Jessa throw down about their guilt and Jessa's declaration that she will always have Hannah in her life, while Hannah carries on: at The Moth, she performs her first finished piece in more than a year, about the three of them.

Thank you very much for summarizing this!

[SlackerInc]

16 hours ago, ichbin said:

Wait....what?  Hannah isn't aware that the withdrawal method of birth control is pretty much just another way of getting pregnant?   

This expert disputes that trope.

1 hour ago, Matias130 said:

I have never really liked Hannah's charachter at all. I just see someone who is borderline mentally ill.

Are you saying being mentally ill is a prima facie reason to dislike someone?

13 minutes ago, qtpye said:

In the next episode preview

Please use spoiler tags if you discuss the previews.  I don't watch them (for this or any show) because I like to wait and find out what's going to happen when it happens.

[Maccagirl]

17 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

I totally agree Allison Williams = not sexy.  She's a pretty skeleton with a flat bum.  Also in the scene outside of the New Jersey club, when Desi was on the ground, you could see her feet in the background in flesh colored flip flops and she became noticeably shorter later in the scene because she wasn't wearing the tall heels she was shown in earlier when they were outside.

Re: Adam in the movie, I felt like there was a degree of emotion in his eyes that we did not see when he and Hannah were actually dating.  Maybe he's romanticizing their relationship on film now that it is gone, more so than he ever did when it was happening.  And it's driving Jessa crazy.

I never liked Jessa and I never liked Jemima Kirke.  To me, smug is one of the worst personality characteristics.  I was cheering for Hannah in that scene.  Jessa just needs to be off my screen.

I really like Ray and Shoshana as friends.  I'm looking forward to her happy ending and I want it to be Shosh from here on out, even though it probably won't.  I really enjoy Zosia Mamet.  I don't need to see anymore Jessa and I'm so tired of Marnie.  I actually don't mind the Desi scenes because he's so good in his role.  That's all I have for now.

I never enjoyed Jessa, but hoped the actress was that good of an actress that she was totally different from Jessa.  Unfortunately for me, I watched the cast on "Inside the Actor's Studio" and now dislike Jemima even more than Jessa.  Your adjective of "smug" is spot on in describing her, at least with the way she presented herself on that platform. 

[WhosThatGirl]

46 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I really hope we have seen the last of Desi.  I never liked the character and the pairing has made Marnie into a cartoon.

In the next episode preview we see Marnie is broke.  So those two hour massages and exercise classes were things she really can not afford.

This. Desi was okay and funny for a bit but now.. he's just grating.

[Lily247]

20 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

This expert disputes that trope.

Are you saying being mentally ill is a prima facie reason to dislike someone?

Please use spoiler tags if you discuss the previews.  I don't watch them (for this or any show) because I like to wait and find out what's going to happen when it happens.

 

Not exactly. It's the fact that she believes that she can get away with doing crazy things, like flashing her boss, or walking around naked with a "bush" in front of her boyfriend's roommate (season 5, Fran) or that she can make out with her ex bf in front of her current one. Or even walk into a grocery store wearing just a skimpy bikini. Maybe she thinks she is some cute pixie that can get away with this kind of crap, even if she was cute, in shape, and charming it still wouldnt be normal. I do not think that she is actually mentally ill, just severely lacks any kind of self awareness or self discipline to the point that you wonder if she was just incredibly spoiled as a child by her parents. By the way, her love interests on this show have never been a flabby, unattractive guy, they have all been in shape, conventionally attractive - even Adam, despite his wierdness, is tall and built - which makes this show feel more and more unrealistic. I have never seen those types of guys with a girl that looks like Hannah, usually those types date girls like Natalia. 

I also feel that the end of Girls will be that Adam's movie somehow ends up being successful and it becomes a television series called "Girls." 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Girls Debate Whether The Baby Daddy Should Be In The Picture

If Hannah thought being a mom would mean being in charge, she's sadly disappointed.

[cardigirl]

39 minutes ago, Matias130 said:

Not exactly. It's the fact that she believes that she can get away with doing crazy things, like flashing her boss, or walking around naked with a "bush" in front of her boyfriend's roommate (season 5, Fran) or that she can make out with her ex bf in front of her current one. Or even walk into a grocery store wearing just a skimpy bikini. Maybe she thinks she is some cute pixie that can get away with this kind of crap, even if she was cute, in shape, and charming it still wouldnt be normal. I do not think that she is actually mentally ill, just severely lacks any kind of self awareness or self discipline to the point that you wonder if she was just incredibly spoiled as a child by her parents. By the way, her love interests on this show have never been a flabby, unattractive guy, they have all been in shape, conventionally attractive - even Adam, despite his wierdness, is tall and built - which makes this show feel more and more unrealistic. I have never seen those types of guys with a girl that looks like Hannah, usually those types date girls like Natalia. 

I also feel that the end of Girls will be that Adam's movie somehow ends up being successful and it becomes a television series called "Girls." 

The bold emphasis is mine, I thought the show had established that Hannah has OCD issues and requires medication to remain on an even keel. Not that she did any of those things you mention while off of her meds, at least, we were not shown that.  

And I agree about the realism of Hannah as she is/was being able to attract multiple attractive partners when her personality hasn't always been shown as winning.  The woman who is playing the Hannah role in the movie has more of that pixish quality that I think would attract men.  That portrayal reveals more tenderness, depth, je ne sais quoi that would attract people to her.  

[Lily247]

Just now, cardigirl said:

The bold emphasis is mine, I thought the show had established that Hannah has OCD issues and requires medication to remain on an even keel. Not that she did any of those things you mention while off of her meds, at least, we were not shown that.  

And I agree about the realism of Hannah as she is/was being able to attract multiple attractive partners when her personality hasn't always been shown as winning.  The woman who is playing the Hannah role in the movie has more of that pixish quality that I think would attract men.  That portrayal reveals more tenderness, depth, je ne sais quoi that would attract people to her.  

 

Totally agree with everything there. While her OCD is definitely a  mental issue that requires medication, it is her other behaviors that make me scratch my head about her, like the ones I mentioned previously. And you are right, the actress portraying Hannah definitely has more of the pixieness that makes her more endearing than actual Hannah. 

[Lunula]

18 hours ago, ichbin said:

Wait....what?  Hannah isn't aware that the withdrawal method of birth control is pretty much just another way of getting pregnant?   

I have to believe that Hannah knows the pull-out method is hit or miss and an idiotic way to control one's reproductive health (in many ways), but I get the feeling she's still in denial about being a full-fledged adult with adult problems. She's no longer a girl, she's a woman. I think this has been a main theme for the entire show - when we're young, we're kind of idiots (at least, I was) and every so often, you have to pay the piper for your idiotic decisions. Personally, I was a wild-child throughout my 20s and literally cringe when I think back to all the insane risks I took - way above & beyond what most of my friends did (or at least admitted to). Luckily, I escaped relatively unscathed - but Hannah is not. 

[DianeDobbler]

Well, I'm definitely not rooting for Adam/Hannah in the end - I didn't buy the period of time they were supposedly in love. I  think it's unfair to the Jessa character to have Adam's character stalk and pursue her, do his best to undermine her reservations (which were about Hannah) - dismissing and undermining Hannah - and now Jessa is being positioned as the insecure girlfriend afraid of her boyfriend's feelings for his ex. It's plot driven, and makes the character of Adam look like the only part of a relationship he likes is the pursuit, or when his object is withholding from him.

Spoiler

From the "Inside the Episode" I saw, we are meant to believe that Hannah is recognizing that what she felt for Adam she may never find again, while Adam is for the first time realizing maybe he should be with Hannah. Whether they're right is something Dunham left unanswered.

I do think Jessa should suck it up about Hannah and their dead friendship. That's another thing I never bought - that Jessa would insist on maintaining her friendship with Hannah. There was never much to it - Dunham never wrote it. There was just that one episode where they visited Jessa's father.  That scene between Hannah and Jessa did play that Jessa had violated a friendship rule, and Hannah was just being real about it, but the reality is Adam was the pursuer, and if he's going to be viewed as the lost love, that leaves Jessa unfairly holding the bag for the Adam / Jessa thing all by herself.

I would probably be tired of Desi if his story was with anyone but Marnie but if there's one thing I can't stand in Girls, it's Marnie winning - at anything.  So I just get a big kick out of Desi, and Marnie being in the snares of that story for so long. I did think the story was revealing about her - she wants this music "career" come hell or high water, and she doesn't have the chops to get it on her own. She couldn't sing solo at the party! Desi is really the act - she's the visual interest, although she looked more like a drag queen in her rocker get up. Also, as bonkers as Desi was in the therapy session with Marnie, I think he was right when he said that to her he was a dick and a voice - and I also think he was a means to an end (which I guess is where the "voice" part comes in).

I am curious how Marnie ended up so entitled when she doesn't appear to have had a spoiled upbringing. I can see her being one of the hot girls in high school but she's not so hot that there wouldn't have been others just as hot. Now Jessa's spoiledness - and Jessa is spoiled - I understand better. She's much more conventionally beautiful in that timeless bohemian way, she's a mess, she's a character people in her real life would have seen portrayed in media, so she fits a certain stereotype that goes through life getting away with things because of their looks, and I also think she has to have family money somewhere. She's never been completely idle, but she's certainly gone stretches without a guy or a means of support.

A neighbor and I were talking about a neighbor who is a bit of a name as a writer (not huge, but a name). She's got an artist husband. My neighbor said, "I don't know why she didn't marry a finance guy or hedge fund manager - she's the type." But I said, "No, in her utmost fantasy she'd have wanted to marry Ben Affleck, but be the only woman he's ever known who is smart enough, smarter than him, and can keep him interested, who has access to the world he moves in, but is also above it, but admired in it, and is just as sexy as the actresses he works with." Very juvenile fantasy, but pretty sure it's true, and I think that's Marnie's fantasy of herself too, she wants that glamour and validation that's up a notch from just marrying a bro w/money. It's not about "the music" for her, or really having creative talent. The guy playing Desi has actually convinced me he is talented, and his arc sort of confirms it, so I didn't fully buy him calling himself out at the end of the episode.

Just OT - I saw a short interview with Lola Kirke, Jemima Kirke's actress sister. She's brunette, but there is a definite family resemblance. However her accent is much more American, and her energy is completely different. She played Greta in Gone Girl.

Edited March 21, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[Kbilly]

Quote

I thought that Hannah went to the Hamptons and the guy she met/slept with, Paul-Louis, was a surfing instructor, no? Why do they keep calling him a water-ski instructor?

 That has been bugging me soooo much--I guess I missed the exposition that his full time gig is water skiing.

So the Meet Cute in the movie had to have been made up because I thought I remembered in the Bushwick crackcident episode where she ran into him at that big party--didn't she say she had never seen him in a shirt? When she was explaining how she didn't know that he was an alcoholic? I also can't see Adam working in a place like that. "If it hurts then you'll remember" is one hell of a meet cute though.

I miss Shoshanna dearly.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

44 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

I would probably be tired of Desi if his story was with anyone but Marnie but if there's one thing I can't stand in Girls, it's Marnie winning - at anything.  So I just get a big kick out of Desi, and Marnie being in the snares of that story for so long.

This^^^. This is why I'm on board with & loving me some Desi this season. I only want to see him in scenes with Marnie, though. Those two ridiculous narcissists deserve each other.  I think the only person each doesn't think he/she is better than is the other (okay, maybe each of them thinks he/she is only slightly better than the other and they're much better than everyone else).   When they divorced, I was like "don't let the door hit you on the way out, Desi!" but now I'm like "you're an enteratining, crazy thorn in Marnie's side that she also can't stay away from? I'm all about that, Desi! Bring it (to Marnie) & entertain me while you're at it!"

44 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

Lola Kirke, Jemima Kirke's actress sister. She's brunette, but there is a definite family resemblance. However her accent is much more American, and her energy is completely different. She played Greta in Gone Girl.

I really liked that actress/character in that film (it's one of my favorites, sorrynotsorry). Now I can't see how I didn't see that she is Jemima Kirke's sister! 

Edited March 21, 2017 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[braziliangirl]

I felt bad for Jessa (even though I think Hannah had the right to talk to her that way). I do think she likes Hannah or, at least, as much as she can like someone. And I agree with her: I don't buy that Hannah is over her or dettached from her.

I think pseudoHannah is much sweeter than the real one (Adam is too). The real ones have an edge, a way of speaking (and also faster) that I can't see it in the fake ones. Maybe it's to show that Adam is romanticizing their relationship now that it's gone. Or a way of showing that Adam loved her, was hurt and hurted her but that his feelings were real.

[DianeDobbler]

I agree that pseudo Hannah is more interesting, and I can buy certain guys being attracted to her more than I could the original. It might be as shallow as her having a better body, but I also think she is just plain more interesting in that world. However, the real Hannah I have gotten used to. It's her quality of "you always miss 100% of the shots you don't take". I've learned something watching her, because the long game of her character I think shows something true about life that a lot of people think ISN'T true. Usually people who do the things she does, who are not full on crazy, have something that insulates them from consequences for awhile, but Hannah doesn't seem to. She shouldn't be able to do and get away with the things she does (such as having hot boyfriends). But I've come to believe in it because the character never stops herself, her character follows her own will. That's different enough to get her to places where her looks and even her personality might not.

 I compared some of Jessa's crazy/reckless stuff with some of Hannah's. I don't think anybody doubted that Jessa could hook up with a guy she met in a bar (early in the show's run, when the character was pregnant) and have sex in the john, but they'd doubt it about Hannah. With Hannah, because she has nothing to protect her or help her get away with what she does, I think the audience keeps thinking "You CAN'T do that" or "You can't get away with that!" I think Lena Dunham once remarked on some of the out there things that Hannah does, but also mentioned she thinks that might be how Hannah ends up getting somewhere in the end, and I agree. Hannah can be irresponsible and get sidetracked, but it's never out of "I can't" or "I don't measure up here." Even when every other person besides herself would probably think she can't and doesn't. Even when the actual experience she's having tells her she can't or isn't measuring up.

 Hannah is always playing out of her league, is undeterred and insensitive to any negating signals, and I think in the end she will wind up in a sort of "Shoot for the moon, you might land among the stars" situation. Pseudo Hannah has a charm that real Hannah doesn't, but real Hannah has a force of will about herself that I think is pretty rare, even though so many times, you think surely now she'll be humiliated. The thing is, she's not. That is what's special about her.

I can't see going to Michigan but I could see her mom coming to New York. Maybe. Hannah and Elijah's apartment could accomodate a kid for a few years, maybe until the kid is in pre-school - plenty of people live in smaller quarters. Hannah's making her contacts and getting her assignments in NY so it would be stupid to go to Michigan. The thing with writing is she can build her client base. She's only doing 25k but she can grow that.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I am not a fan of the baby development at all, but I must say it's interesting how everybody has opinions about every part of it and everybody feels really strongly that Hannah should pay attention to their opinions. It's a good look at how entitled everybody is with a pregnant woman. 

I don't know if it's entitlement so much as they are dealing with someone who is looking for their approval and validation of her choices. 

One thing I didn't like was I thought she resolved things with Elijah way too quickly and easily.  He said horrible things to her last week, and I would have liked to see it take a little more for Hannah to forgive him. 

[27bored]

I liked the Hannah/Jessa scene. Jessa mostly deserves Hannah shutting her down, tho I'm unclear, still, on just how bad Jessa's friend-crime was. Hannah dumped Adam, Jessa didn't steal him. I'm not into snatching up your friends' past boyfriends, just in general, but nobody seems to care that Marnie did it to Shoshonna, and this is an ethically challenged group of friends anyway.

I went from feeling sorry for Hannah -- a feeling I rarely have for her -- to kind of feeling sorry for Jessa. I think it was shitty what she said, especially when Adam was chasing Jessa hardcore last season. I'm just saying: I can kind of see why she might feel betrayed by her best friend sleeping with her ex, but Hannah? He was plenty over you. And I have the nagging feeling that if Hannah had serious feelings for some guy in her friends' lives she wouldn't hesitate to reciprocate an advance (partially evidenced by the ill-fated BJ she gave Ray last season). Plus, it seems like they're using this stupid movie to make Adam fall back in love with Hannah and that leaves Jessa to be the little trollop who sacrificed her friendship for Adam, and is now on the verge of losing him to the same friend.

Also, I can't believe that Adam and Jessa would be this conflicted about Hannah. I mean, Adam wants her to see his movie, Jessa wants them to be friends, ugh. I guess this is the show's way of turning Lena into Carrie Bradshaw, but IRL ain't nobody thinking about her like that. And it's interesting her and Elijah made up so quickly.

Marnie's storyline just gets more and more ridiculous. I find her way less annoying than some people, but that's not saying much. Desi isn't even trashy in a funny way anymore; he's just exhausting. And her MILFy mom is embarrassing. I kind of wish Marnie would find someone, you know, normal. Between Charlie, Ray, and Desi, she's had a bunch of clunkers.

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know if it's entitlement so much as they are dealing with someone who is looking for their approval and validation of her choices. 

I disagree. Look at the conversations that actually take place around her pregnancy. Her father's boyfriend, who really is in no position to be weighing in on Hannah's choices, and whose approval Hannah is not seeking, offers his take on what it felt like to be a (potential) sperm donor. Adam, who's had virtually no contact with Hannah for months, immediately offered his unsolicited opinion about whether she should tell the father, when the only reason she told him in the first place was to get him off her back. Nor was she seeking Elijah's approval when he threw a hissyfit last episode and told her unprompted that she'd be a terrible mother. When she told her mother, she said she was prepared for her mother's critiques.

Of course she's pleased when Marnie initially offers her support. People want the support of people they care about. That doesn't mean that they're "looking for their approval and validation of her choices." Nor is telling other people about her pregnancy an invitation for everyone and their boyfriend to offer completely unsolicited opinions about what she should do with her own pregnancy.

9 hours ago, 27bored said:

I went from feeling sorry for Hannah -- a feeling I rarely have for her -- to kind of feeling sorry for Jessa. I think it was shitty what she said, especially when Adam was chasing Jessa hardcore last season.

So what? Jessa is not some passive victim of Adam's lust. Adam didn't hold Jessa down and rape her. She chose not only to act on her attraction to Adam but to lie to Hannah about it. Nor was Adam claiming at the time to be Hannah's friend.

As for what Hannah told Jessa, Jessa deserved it for showing up without an invitation at Hannah's place, trying to make her feel bad about not telling Jessa about her pregnancy, when Jessa had had no contact with Hannah for months except to beg her permission to make their shitty movie. Hannah rightly pointed out that she didn't tell Jessa for a reason, which Jessa should be smart enough to figure out for herself ("Why didn't you call me?"/"Do I really have to answer that question for you, Jessa?"), that Jessa's "dear friend" line is garbage, and that Jessa should have thought about why Hannah didn't tell her before coming over in the first place. "How are you going to be a therapist if you can't figure out what's going in your own life, which is that I didn't tell you for a reason, which is that I don't care about your feelings because I don't care about you anymore, Jessa?" 

Harsh? No. Jessa hadn't gotten the message that Hannah's lack of contact was sending, or was ignoring it, so Hannah was forced to spell it out for her. Jessa forced her to say things that Jessa didn't want to hear, but that's on Jessa, not Hannah. Jessa showing up at Hannah's apartment to whine about how she found out about the pregnancy was completely out of line. If Jessa had started out with a sincere apology, that would be one thing, but instead she just tried to guilt trip Hannah over not telling her about the pregnancy, and, when that manipulation didn't work, she went to the "dear friend" line, smoothly glossing over everything else with a "Despite everything that happened." Yes, Hannah shut her down with a quickness, but she had to or else endure Jessa's attempts to manipulate and bullshit her way into having Hannah apologize to her. Hannah wasn't having any of Jessa's bullshit, and it was glorious.

And then when Hannah makes these very reasonable points, Jessa makes this big show of sighing and rolling her eyes, like Hannah is being the unreasonable one for wanting nothing more to do with Jessa. It's an attempt again to put Hannah in the position of apologizing, but Hannah admirably refuses to take the bait. Nor does she get into a dramatic argument when Jessa starts shouting about "erasing" people, as Jessa was probably hoping to pick a fight; her "I don't care anymore" was the perfect way to deflate Jessa's narcissism, and it's no worse than Jessa deserved for showing up at Hannah's apartment unprompted to berate Hannah for not telling her about the pregnancy.

Quote

Also, I can't believe that Adam and Jessa would be this conflicted about Hannah. I mean, Adam wants her to see his movie, Jessa wants them to be friends, ugh.

While they are trying to worm their way back into Hannah's life, it's not really about her, though. Adam wants to submit his film to festivals and to demonstrate that he still has control over Hannah, by insisting that this movie will liberate her from all the baggage of their dramatic relationship. Jessa wants back into Hannah's life because her ego can't bear the idea that Hannah is "erasing" her or that Jessa is in the wrong (which is why she leads off their conversation by trying to guilt-trip Hannah about not telling her, trying to put Hannah in the position of having to apologize). It's all about them and their egos, not about their love for her.

If Adam and Jessa really cared for Hannah at all, they would stay away until and unless Hannah initiated contact. They've now shown total disrespect for her boundaries--showing up at her apartment unsolicited--on three separate occasions.

Quote

I guess this is the show's way of turning Lena into Carrie Bradshaw, but IRL ain't nobody thinking about her like that.

Yes, how dare a woman who looks like Lena Dunham portray a character written as loved or desired by others? The nerve of that woman. How dare she?

Speaking of Carrie, I also recall haters of Sex and the City bitching about Carrie getting all these hot men to vie for her affections, because Sarah Jessica Parker was supposedly so utterly repulsive that that would never ever happen. Plus ca change and all that.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Eyes High

[txhorns79]

Quote

Nor was she seeking Elijah's approval when he threw a hissyfit last episode and told her unprompted that she'd be a terrible mother.

I have to imagine she was very much seeking Elijah's approval given she had a whole idea of them raising the baby together.

Quote

Her father's boyfriend, who really is in no position to be weighing in on Hannah's choices, and whose approval Hannah is not seeking, offers his take on what it felt like to be a (potential) sperm donor. 

I thought his comments were in the context of a conversation about whether Hannah should tell or not tell the father.  

Quote

Nor is telling other people about her pregnancy an invitation for everyone and their boyfriend to offer completely unsolicited opinions about what she should do with her own pregnancy.

Why not?  It's not like Hannah has any experience with the issue.  If she doesn't like or agree with their ideas, she has the ability to end the conversation.       

[Eyes High]

38 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I have to imagine she was very much seeking Elijah's approval given she had a whole idea of them raising the baby together.  

She was pretty clear that she was doing it with or without him, and she was also clear in this episode that she never expected him to blow smoke up her ass about what an amazing mother she would be.

Quote

I thought his comments were in the context of a conversation about whether Hannah should tell or not tell the father.  

Not really. Tad was completely supportive of Hannah's decision and offered no disagreement. The only other "side" of the conversation was his boyfriend, who again offered his opinions and played devil's advocate unsolicited. Not his place, although Hannah, like many pregnant women before her, elected to pretend to entertain his bullshit for the sake of politeness.

Quote

Why not?  It's not like Hannah has any experience with the issue. 

So what? No first-time mom has any experience with the issue. And in this context, Elijah, Marnie, and Adam are not parents either, so they have no more "experience" than Hannah, much less any experience with having children conceived from a brief fling (and neither do Tad and Loreen have any experience with the latter subject).

Not having experience doesn't mean that everyone, even her (childless) ex-boyfriend, is entitled to weigh in with their thoughts and opinions about what she should do. It's rude to weigh in on someone's personal choices about her pregnancy unsolicited--although I give Elijah a pass for getting upset since her pregnancy would affect his living situation directly (even if the "terrible mother" thing was completely out of line)--and I agree with the poster upthread that it demonstrates an offensive spirit of entitlement regarding women's bodies. Adam is a good example; he has no right at all to offer an opinion, but he still does, saying "You can't" (not tell the father) almost reflexively. 

Speaking of internalized sexism and entitlement, I think it's pretty telling that various characters, in taking exception to Hannah's plan not to tell the father, are getting angry at Hannah, whom they supposedly care or cared about, on behalf of the potential hurt feelings of some dude they know nothing about and have never met.

Quote

If she doesn't like or agree with their ideas, she has the ability to end the conversation.     

I disagree. Unsolicited opinions about personal choices--and it doesn't get much more personal than pregnancy and childrearing--are offensive, and one's ability to end the conversation doesn't negate the offensiveness of the original unsolicited opinion. 

It's well established that people get all up in pregnant women's shit about what they should or shouldn't do with their pregnancies, and I think the fact that everyone has been weighing in on Hannah's pregnancy is a reflection of that. Doesn't make it right. Are you my doctor? Did I ask for your advice as to what to do? No? Then shut the fuck up.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Eyes High

[txhorns79]

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I disagree. Unsolicited opinions about personal choices--and it doesn't get much more personal than pregnancy and childrearing--are offensive, and one's ability to end the conversation doesn't negate the offensiveness of the original unsolicited opinion. 

It's well established that people get all up in pregnant women's shit about what they should or shouldn't do with their pregnancies, and I think the fact that everyone has been weighing in on Hannah's pregnancy is a reflection of that. Doesn't make it right. Are you my doctor? Did I ask for your advice as to what to do? No? Then shut the fuck up.

I don't think it's offensive, and certainly not to the point where I'd be yelling obscenities at people over it.  However, I guess people take offense at all kinds of things, so you could be right.  If someone was offering advice I didn't want, I'd just tell them I had the situation covered.  If they persisted, I'd end the conversation.  I don't recall Hannah indicating she found anything suggested to her to be particularly offensive, outside of Elijah's unmitigated cruelty during the last episode.     

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So what? No first-time mom has any experience with the issue. And in this context, Elijah, Marnie, and Adam are not parents either, so they have no more "experience" than Hannah, much less any experience with having children conceived from a brief fling (and neither do Tad and Loreen have any experience with the latter subject).

 

I don't know if you need to be a parent to have experience with child rearing.  I certainly know people who spent a good deal of time caring for infant siblings, or other people's children, who offered good advice and suggestions when it was time for my first child.  I guess it all depends on your own comfort level.  If you start from the proposition that unsolicited advice is bad and offensive, then I can see why you would automatically reject it.   

[Eyes High]

47 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't think it's offensive, and certainly not to the point where I'd be yelling obscenities at people over it.  However, I guess people take offense at all kinds of things, so you could be right.  If someone was offering advice I didn't want, I'd just tell them I had the situation covered.  If they persisted, I'd end the conversation.  I don't recall Hannah indicating she found anything suggested to her to be particularly offensive, outside of Elijah's unmitigated cruelty during the last episode.     

Offering unsolicited advice--short of emergency situations, like where someone doesn't notice an oncoming car--is always bad manners. That's pretty elementary. It's particularly rude--and, yes, even offensive--when the unsolicited opinions are on highly personal subjects. It demonstrates some highly entitled assumptions: 1) that your opinion must be heard even though it hasn't been sought, 2) that the subject of your advice hasn't already considered other points of view, 3) that the subject is incapable of making their own decisions without your input, and 4) that your opinion is necessarily superior to the subject's judgment. The advice offerer is almost always wrong on all counts.

In addition to the obvious rudeness when it comes to unsolicited advice, which is gender-blind, unsolicited advice offered to women regarding pregnancy and childrearing is also fraught with sexist overtones for obvious reasons. Many a paper has been written about women's pregnant bodies being seen as public property, women's autonomy being seen to be erased once they become pregnant, etc. etc. The past two episodes have highlighted that important truth, I think.

As for Hannah's lack of reaction, just because she didn't react--for the sake of politeness--doesn't negate the offensiveness. We all put up with offensive shit we let slide for the sake of relationships. It doesn't mean it's okay. And you're also incorrect when you claim that the only thing Hannah found offensive was Elijah's comments: Hannah took great exception to Marnie telling her she should tell the father.

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I guess it all depends on your own comfort level.  If you start from the proposition that unsolicited advice is bad and offensive

Unsolicited advice is bad and offensive, particularly for pregnancies and childrearing, for the reasons I have said. None of these women are exactly Miss Manners, obviously, but let's not pretend that the barrage of unsolicited advice and opinions parade Hannah has received about her pregnancy and about telling the father is benign and inoffensive. It isn't.

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I certainly know people who spent a good deal of time caring for infant siblings, or other people's children, who offered good advice and suggestions when it was time for my first child.  I guess it all depends on your own comfort level.

It's not about comfort level, it's about the most basic of basic courtesies: people keeping their opinions to themselves unless asked, particularly on sensitive personal topics. I know we live in an age where manners are in decline, but come on: that's basic respect for another person. Also, if people behave rudely and one has a problem with it, it's not about one's supposedly problematic "comfort level"--which is a way of telling someone that they're overreacting (a time-honoured way of condoning or excusing bad behaviour)--it's about others behaving badly.

As for your other point, I personally would never want unsolicited advice or opinions about how to raise my children from actual parents, much less from someone who'd only ever "cared for infant siblings." I think that opinion is pretty common, too. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by Eyes High

[txhorns79]

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Offering unsolicited advice--short of emergency situations, like where someone doesn't notice an oncoming car--is always bad manners. That's pretty elementary. It's particularly rude--and, yes, even offensive--when the unsolicited opinions are on highly personal subjects. It demonstrates some highly entitled assumptions: 1) that your opinion must be heard even though it hasn't been sought, 2) that the subject of your advice hasn't already considered other points of view, 3) that the subject is incapable of making their own decisions without your input, and 4) that your opinion is necessarily superior to the subject's judgment. The advice offerer is almost always wrong on all counts.

I don't find it offensive, but if you do to the point where you consider all unsolicited advise outside an emergency to be rude and off putting, that's your right.  As I said, I didn't see in this episode that Hannah was responding to her dad and his boyfriend as though she was offended by what they were saying, or that she found Marnie to be particularly offensive in what she was saying.  Was there anything in the episode that suggested she found any of those peoples' advice to be really offensive, or that she thought the mere fact they were offering advice was offensive?    

[luna1122]

I despise unsolicited advice and also always think it's inappropriate and rude, even if it's correct. But I didn't see her dad's boyfriend as being really inappropriate. Hannah came into his home, and initiated the conversation with both her dad and the boyfriend, so it wasn't really unsolicited, in my opinion. She could have asked to speak to her father alone if she didn't want anyone else's input. Maybe he should have asked if she minded if he gave his opinion before he gave it; it ultimately doesn't really have anything to do with him. but she made him part of the conversation, so I didn't feel what he said or did was offensive.

[Eyes High]

19 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't find it offensive, but if you do to the point where you consider all unsolicited advise outside an emergency to be rude and off putting, that's your right.  As I said, I didn't see in this episode that Hannah was responding to her dad and his boyfriend as though she was offended by what they were saying, or that she found Marnie to be particularly offensive in what she was saying.  Was there anything in the episode that suggested she found any of those peoples' advice to be really offensive, or that she thought the mere fact they were offering advice was offensive?    

Hannah got so upset at Marnie telling her she should tell the father--and calling her "fucking insane" when she said she wouldn't--that she stormed off and holed up in the bathroom. She clearly thought that Marnie offering her unsolicited opinion was highly offensive.

6 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

I despise unsolicited advice and also always think it's inappropriate and rude, even if it's correct. But I didn't see her dad's boyfriend as being really inappropriate. Hannah came into his home, and initiated the conversation with both her dad and the boyfriend, so it wasn't really unsolicited, in my opinion. She could have asked to speak to her father alone if she didn't want anyone else's input. Maybe he should have asked if she minded if he gave his opinion before he gave it; it ultimately doesn't really have anything to do with him. but she made him part of the conversation, so I didn't feel what he said or did was offensive.

I rewatched the scene, and in context she did include Tad's boyfriend in the conversation and had apparently initiated a conversation where she raised the subject in the first place in a way that seemed like she was looking for Tad's advice, so upon rewatching I would agree. I think my point about everyone else's opinions over the past two episodes--and unsolicited advice in general--still stands.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Eyes High

[txhorns79]

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Hannah got so upset at Marnie telling her she should tell the father--and calling her "fucking insane" when she said she wouldn't--that she stormed off and holed up in the bathroom. She clearly thought that Marnie offering her unsolicited opinion was highly offensive.

I think that's just Hannah's typical immaturity, which goes back to what I said about Hannah having no experience in these situations and not understanding her responsibilities.  For example, if Hannah understood these situations, she'd know she can't just unilaterally cut the father out of his child's life without experiencing some serious legal repercussions down the line if he was to find out what she had done.        

[Eyes High]

16 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I think that's just Hannah's typical immaturity, which goes back to what I said about Hannah having no experience in these situations and not understanding her responsibilities.  For example, if Hannah understood these situations, she'd know she can't just unilaterally cut the father out of his child's life without experiencing some serious legal repercussions down the line if he was to find out what she had done.        

Serious legal repercussions? I have no idea what you mean. The obligation to notify the father of pregnancy/childbirth, if there is indeed any such obligation, is moral or ethical, not legal, as far as I'm aware. There are very good reasons for that, such as protecting women who are hiding their pregnancies from abusive exes.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Eyes High

[txhorns79]

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Serious legal repercussions? I have no idea what you mean. The obligation to notify the father of pregnancy/childbirth, if there is indeed any such obligation, is moral or ethical, not legal, as far as I'm aware. There are very good reasons for that, such as protecting women who are hiding their pregnancies from abusive exes.

This might be why it would be a good idea for Hannah to hear unsolicited advice on the issue.  A father has legal rights with regard to his child.  A mother who interferes with those rights can find herself losing custody, have restrictions put on her interactions with her child or even find herself barred from seeing her child should the situation be serious enough.  And obviously, Hannah is not hiding a pregnancy from an abusive ex.