S01.E05: Once Bitten

[Bitsy]

I was scared when Perry canceled his tennis game and came home by surprise.  I thought he'd come home to catch Celeste in the act of going someplace he found objectionable - i.e., going anywhere.  I think Celeste thought that too.  But it was particularly scary knowing that Celeste had been going to see their therapist on her own and that would particularly enrage him if he found out.

No scarf on Celeste at the therapist's office this week, even though there was noticeable redness all around her neck.  She wanted the therapist to see that and coax the truth out of her.

It's kind of sickening how throughout the show you see bigass bruises on Celeste - some old, some new - and they aren't even bruises that she got from the incidents we saw.

[Frisson]

I need everyone in a serous emotional situation to STOP driving when they are upset. They showed so many scenes of these characters getting in the car while highly upset/distracted, which is so dangerous for everyone on the road, which was suggested in the Maddie/theater guy accident, except they kept blaming their distraction on a young, possible texter.

[lmsweb]

On re-watch, I just realized something. Jane showed up as "Celeste Wright" and then something happened with Saxon at his office. So if Perry somehow finds out about "Celeste" going to see an interior designer for some new place she's getting (which I think was the reason for the appointment in the first place) that's going to open a whole new can of worms into an already full puddle.

Also, Ed and Tara (? - the directors wife) both know about the affair. The looks and dialogue between each married couple was heavy on it.

[scrb]

All 3 women harbor secrets and despite their best intentions, they can't keep them from getting out.

They montaged the women stressing out with the murder or the victim being rolled out, as if one of them might have done it.

Crafty editing too with Perry picking up the stuff.  Initially you don't think it escalated but in flashbacks during therapy, he pummeled her, which is why she had to do so much to cover up the bruises, yet her instinct was still to go to the therapist.  But ultimately, she goes to the airport to pick him up, not run away.

Meanwhile, do you smoke out in anticipation of a possibly violent confrontation?  With what, the only straight male interior decorator in the world?

[Armchair Critic]

I was hoping that Celeste was running away with the boys (although that's not realistic) when they first walked into the airport.

[kokapetl]

For a David E Kelley dramedy, how come Laura Dern is the only one doing anything entertaining? Madeline's nightmare in which Renata pushed her off the cliff with the Avenue Q Muppets was great. Beats whatsherface's endless jogging. 

[Auntie Anxiety]

We finally see Celeste talking back to Perry when he made a big deal about the toys being all over the floor. Guess she needed to prove to herself that she isn't afraid of talking to him after the therapist (Robin Weigert, you are fabulous!) asked her why she WAS afraid. Yeah, that went well. He collected the toys, turned the box over on her head and then went on to almost strangle her. Even before he came into the room, she had to close up her computer do he wouldn't see her working (or whatever she was doing) because she knew it would set him off. Walking on eggshells is not a part of a happy marriage. 

No way Jane shot the interior decorator. Maddie's ex is an idiot.

[nara]

49 minutes ago, lmsweb said:

On re-watch, I just realized something. Jane showed up as "Celeste Wright" and then something happened with Saxon at his office. So if Perry somehow finds out about "Celeste" going to see an interior designer for some new place she's getting (which I think was the reason for the appointment in the first place) that's going to open a whole new can of worms into an already full puddle.

Also, Ed and Tara (? - the directors wife) both know about the affair. The looks and dialogue between each married couple was heavy on it.

I didn't consider what Perry might think. Yikes! And it fits with "it wouldn't have happened if Madeline and Jane hadn't become friends".

I think it's Tori. Btw, I felt really sad for Madeline that she has been kicked out of the show. It seemed like the part-time job really mattered to her. Perhaps she will take over as director now that Joseph is hospitalized? 

Also, the way that Ed ran to the hospital room looked like genuine love and concern to me. I am on team "not creeping on Abby". 

Leave it to Renata to make Amabella's bullying about herself. I was on her husband's side on this one.

Was I the only one annoyed at Nathan and Bonnie for not caring about the Facebook thing? I am not a fan of spying on kids, but most of the parents I know are open with their kids that they will periodically check on them in social media. 

Jane pissed me off for driving while high. What would happen to Ziggy if she got in an accident?  I did laugh when she sniffed Saxon Baker.

At the fundraiser scene at the end, did we see evidence that Jane is not the victim? If so, is she the only one of the main characters who's been ruled out. That part went by quickly.

Edited March 20, 2017 by nara

[riverheightsnancy]

So is the interior designer the rapist or not? I was not certain. 

[lmsweb]

9 minutes ago, nara said:

Was I the only one annoyed at Nathan and Bonnie for not caring about the Facebook thing? I am not a fan of spying on kids, but most of the parents I know are open with their kids that they will periodically check on them in social media.

This bothered me but also rang true to what we know about Nathan. My 16 year old daughter has me on her FB and Instagram accounts, and in exchange I've promised not to embarrass her in social media in return. I also had a rule when she was 12-13 that I had to know her password to it. I never used it....but I had that access if I needed it. Her Dad on the other hand couldn't care less about what she posts on either account as long as it's not something bad about him...LOL

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, riverheightsnancy said:

So is the interior designer the rapist or not? I was not certain. 

It was left ambiguous, but I don't think so. The way Jane screamed in frustration on her way back from Saxon's office sounded to me like she got the wrong guy.

Kidman and Skarsgard are the MVPs of the show for me. Every time his expression changes right before he flies into a rage, I tense up. And her scene with the therapist was just amazing.

On the other hand, I find it really hard to relate to Jane. She's trying to build a normal life for Ziggy, but then she does stuff like keep a gun by her bedside when Ziggy is known to sleepwalk, and get high and drive recklessly to confront a man she suspects to be her rapist.

I think Ed suspects about Madeline's affair with Joseph. He pointedly asked her why she was in his car, and didn't seem convinced by her answer.

As some people have said, standing desks have been all the rage in the tech community for years, at least on the West Coast. Both my last and current job has adjustable desks. I don't stand for long periods of time, but it's nice to be able to stand for bit every now and then. Another thing that's really popular at tech company offices is, believe it or not, Nerf guns. The kind that Celeste's 6-year-old twins were shooting. That's why I didn't think much of it when the twins started shooting her at dinner, because I used to dodge them all the time at my last job. Only at my job it was 30-something men shooting them. I thought that dinner scene was actually to show how "fun" things are in the Wright household when Perry is not being violent.

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, riverheightsnancy said:

ETA: if memory serves, 2 of the most dangerous times for an abused woman are: 1) when pregnant 2) when they try to leave. If that is still true, there is a chance that the miscarriages could have been caused by abuse. 

Thank you for reiterating that.  Posters here keep saying "Why doesn't she just leave" as if that is a brilliant idea no one's ever thought of.

Jane makes me so angry, sleeping next to both a gun and her child at the same time.  How fucking stupid.  Just look up the statistics for how many people die by their own guns and through accidental death, my god, how fucking reckless.  And she knows how jumpy she is, not a calm person at all but rather a traumatized one.

I hate the cliche of violent car crashes in shows trying to be "edgy" and this one is one of the worst crimes of all because it's so gratuitous,

 

not based on the book whatsoever.

The whole thing makes me so upset I turn all the way around to just accepting it in a Zen manner, Bonnie-like.

A lot of studies have come out recently about how humans sitting at a desk for 8 hours (and then going home and basically doing the same) is extremely unhealthy and leads to heart problems, so standing desks is an innovation to combat that.  I did also read that pushing yourself to do that too fast can ALSO be bad for your heart, so maybe a good mix is best, not sure.  I would do the research before switching.  Although, I've had jobs where I was standing most of the time so I would think that those jobs would at least be better than the sitting.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Lemons]

2 hours ago, Gem 10 said:

Is it because Arabella is "gifted"  that she is so smart to keep a secret at 6 yrs old?  Are the twins making her keep the secret?   My 9 year old granddaughter, a very smart kid, tells me all the secrets.  She can't hold things in and is adorable.   Maybe Renata should try bribing her into telling the truth and get this all over with.  I know, I know .. I'm bad.

I think her mother called her "gifted" but she doesn't appear to be. If anyone is precocious it's maddie's kid. That little one is on the ball. 

The only reason I could think of why a six year old wouldn't talk is if the abuser threatened to kill her or her family. 

Again, an extremely painful wound and no one saw anything?  No cries of pain?  Unrealistic. I would insist on something being done before I let my child go back to that school. But Renata insisting it's the boy and not trying to look at all possibilities make her look stupid. 

1 minute ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Thank you for reiterating that.  Posters here keep saying "Why doesn't she just leave" as if that is a brilliant idea no one's ever thought of.

I guess it's hard to believe that her skin doesn't crawl at the sound of his voice. It's hard to believe anyone could love that pig. 

I could understand her fear of him hunting her to the ends of the earth. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Frisson said:

I need everyone in a serous emotional situation to STOP driving when they are upset. They showed so many scenes of these characters getting in the car while highly upset/distracted, which is so dangerous for everyone on the road, which was suggested in the Maddie/theater guy accident, except they kept blaming their distraction on a young, possible texter.

Something I hate about television shows and movies so much because there is nothing directors seem to love more than a fucking violent car crash so I am always ready for it to come.  It's often gratuitous because there are other ways to advance the plot.  And then of course they had to show a flashback to it right after.

Jane always wears the same outfit while jogging.  LOL.  Somebody's going to come out and say they do the same but to me it's funny.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[fakeempress]

2 hours ago, kjwillis93 said:

Do any music savvy folks out there know the song that Jane was listening to in her car as she was driving and smoking a joint? 

It's this one. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e133XxO9iGo

I'm usually indifferent to Nicole Kidman but the therapy scene was worthy of In Treatment. Excellent work by both actresses.

Edited March 20, 2017 by fakeempress

[Artsda]

55 minutes ago, Lemons said:

Is it because Arabella is "gifted"  that she is so smart to keep a secret at 6 yrs old?  

For someone gifted she doesn't speak much. I don't think she's that gifted or smart, Renta just insists that she must be. If anyone is a bully it's Renta. 

I'm surprised nobody drove their car off a cliff tonight. All of them so emotional and driving. 

When Perry started picking up the toys I knew that was not going to end well. Celeste's scenes with the therapist plus the flashbacks was so well done. 

This show is so good! Captivating from start to finish.

[polyhymnia]

4 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Her name is Robin Weigert and I remember her as Calamity Jane in Deadwood.  And the first season of Life.  She's always excellent.

Oh wow, it is totally her. She was so wonderful in Deadwood.

[NutMeg]

This episode was intense, there were a few times when it made me jump, I felt really on edge. Sometimes kept me expecting something bad was about to happen.

I'm with all of you who were impressed by the therapy session. Great work by both actresses. Nicole Kidman killed it and I like the mix of compassion but also will to not be derailed that the therapist showed.

How sad was it that Celeste is so skilled at and equipped with what's needed to cover her multiple bruises? That scene in the car was so powerful. It showed that the horrific is just business as usual for her. 

Jane is a very troubled person, it's amazing that she manages to act normal around Ziggy when she's in such a turmoil inside. Her scenes alone are my least favorites though. 

[NeenerNeener]

I wonder if the twins know more about Mommy & Daddy's abusive relationship than anyone realizes and they're acting it out at school on Amabella. 

Edited March 25, 2017 by NeenerNeener

[Flodence]

Nicole Kidman. This episode - I couldn't actually watch some of it. She made me cry. Add me to the list of people that loves the therapist and wants a visit! Someone above mentioned the guy in the cafe having lots of face time tonight, and something must be going on with him. I didn't pick it up but my husband did and said the same. Great episode. I don't want it to end but need to know how it does.....

Edited March 20, 2017 by Flodence
Change

[mochamajesty]

I thought the therapist had a duty to break confidentiality and make a report to the authorities if she thought her patient was in danger and/or if a law was broken??

Perhaps she sensed that Celeste would just lie for Perry if she reported it? 

[Kell]

5 hours ago, riverheightsnancy said:

So is the interior designer the rapist or not? I was not certain. 

No, I don't think so at all - she envisions shooting every guy in her head and I think that's what the gunshot thing was about...

Agree, the cafe waiter has a big too much face time to not be involved somehow ... with something...  

I think you guys might be right about the twins knowing about the violence and hurting Amabelle -- omg I sure hope they don't start doing anything to her like Perry does to Celeste - sexually..   

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[CofCinci]

36 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

I thought the therapist had a duty to break confidentiality and make a report to the authorities if she thought her patient was in danger and/or if a law was broken??

Perhaps she sensed that Celeste would just lie for Perry if she reported it? 

For the majority of states you cannot break confidentiality for reports of IPV.  Some states don't even have Tarasoff laws -- but these laws exist to protect the clinician from liability.

In the state I'm licensed, I would need Perry in office and he would need to make it clear he has homicidal ideation, strong intent, a firm plan and the means to harm Celeste.

Developing a safety plan together is pretty much all the therapist can do with the information Celeste provided. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by CofCinci

[vixenbynight]

26 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

I thought the therapist had a duty to break confidentiality and make a report to the authorities if she thought her patient was in danger and/or if a law was broken??

Perhaps she sensed that Celeste would just lie for Perry if she reported it? 

The therapist knows that Celeste, at this point isn't mentally and emotionally ready to truly accept that her relationship with Perry is abusive and that it will eventually have a negative affect on their children. Did anyone else notice that Celeste was the one offering Perry comfort when he broke down in tears after he abused and had sex with her? That's one of the many reasons why she continues to believe that she's "not a victim". She sees her husband weeping, so in her mind, she must have done something to cause him to act this way towards her.

I noticed that for each time Celeste was ready to leave the doctor's office, she found herself staying to listen to the next question or comment from the doctor.

She desperately wants everything to stop, go back to how it might have been with her husband,  but she doesn't know how that can happen.

Just now, CofCinci said:

For the majority of states you cannot break confidentiality for reports of IPV.  Some states don't even have Tarasoff laws -- but these laws exist to protect the clinician from liability and not the client or intended victim.

In the state I'm licensed, I would need Perry in office and he would need to make it clear he has homicidal ideation, strong intent, a firm plan and the means to harm Celeste.

Developing a safety plan together is pretty much all the therapist can do with the information Celeste provided. 

It's also interesting that we haven't seen Perry talking to Celeste about attending another session with the therapist. I think he feels that one session was enough and that all thoughts of therapy have vanished from Celeste's mind.

The fact that she has to keep this from Perry, makes it even more evident in my mind that things will continue to get worse for her and those children.

[mochamajesty]

10 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

For the majority of states you cannot break confidentiality for reports of IPV.  Some states don't even have Tarasoff laws -- but these laws exist to protect the clinician from liability.

In the state I'm licensed, I would need Perry in office and he would need to make it clear he has homicidal ideation, strong intent, a firm plan and the means to harm Celeste.

Developing a safety plan together is pretty much all the therapist can do with the information Celeste provided. 

That seems horribly ineffective. Thanks for the information.

Edited March 20, 2017 by mochamajesty

[soylatte]

5 hours ago, Lemons said:

If anyone is precocious it's maddie's kid. That little one is on the ball. 

Seconded. The actress does her job well. I first saw her on The Leftovers, where she broke my heart. I really like seeing the friendship she had with Ziggy, especially tonight. He smiled!

[hoodooznoodooz]

Does anyone remember in the first episode one of the neighbors commenting that Celeste was (much?) older than Perry? If so, I wonder how that plays into all of this. 

So tired of watching Jane run, listening to music.

Celeste seemed rather cold to Jane when Jane  called to find out Madeline's condition.

[Ina123]

6 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Another thing that's really popular at tech company offices is, believe it or not, Nerf guns. The kind that Celeste's 6-year-old twins were shooting. That's why I didn't think much of it when the twins started shooting her at dinner, because I used to dodge them all the time at my last job. Only at my job it was 30-something men shooting them. I thought that dinner scene was actually to show how "fun" things are in the Wright household when Perry is not being violent.

Rubber bands. I've dodged many a rubber band in my career. If I ever needed one, I just looked on the floor between cubes.

[CofCinci]

13 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

That seems horribly ineffective. Thanks for the information.

You're welcome.  Laws vary from state to state but very little is done to protect in situations of IPV.  There are many therapists who will not work with couples.  Perry could state in session that he is going to go home and slap or punch Celeste - and there is nothing the therapist can do except to advise Perry to not do so and to created a safety plan with him and Celeste.  If he says he is going to cut off a portion of her pinky to punish her - is that homicidial ideation to warrant a report to police? No, not in my state.

But once children are involved -- these ethical gray areas become brighter and easier to understand.  Now, if Celeste were to state that the children observed Perry harming her or that he harmed the children, then the therapist would be obligated to contact child protective authorities -- in all states. 

Dr. Calamity Jane's client is the couple.  She was not practicing ethically by seeing Celeste alone - unless the session was discussed by the couple and clinician and was relevant to the treatment plan.  The clinician should inform Perry of deviations from the treatment plan (even though he is a creep). 

Exploring these ethical situations in classes and workshops is always fun but there is a sadness and heartbreak within the reality of these relationships.  The therapist is often as powerless as the victim. 

[stagmania]

6 hours ago, lmsweb said:

This bothered me but also rang true to what we know about Nathan. My 16 year old daughter has me on her FB and Instagram accounts, and in exchange I've promised not to embarrass her in social media in return. I also had a rule when she was 12-13 that I had to know her password to it. I never used it....but I had that access if I needed it. Her Dad on the other hand couldn't care less about what she posts on either account as long as it's not something bad about him...LOL

Yeah it's a safety thing-most parents track their kids' social media. I follow my younger sister's accounts and she knows full well that if she posts something alarming on there she's going to hear from me and our mom about it.

6 hours ago, chocolatine said:

On the other hand, I find it really hard to relate to Jane. She's trying to build a normal life for Ziggy, but then she does stuff like keep a gun by her bedside when Ziggy is known to sleepwalk, and get high and drive recklessly to confront a man she suspects to be her rapist.

I think we've seen that Jane is deeply ambivalent about her choice to keep Ziggy, and that seems to manifest in self-destructive behavior. Her story about him shaking so hard when he was born and apologizing for bringing him into the world was gutting. She should be seeing a therapist herself.

6 hours ago, Lemons said:

I guess it's hard to believe that her skin doesn't crawl at the sound of his voice. It's hard to believe anyone could love that pig. 

It's been said before, but anyone who has ever known a woman in an abusive relationship knows better than this. There's nothing simple about the emotions Perry brings out in Celeste, or the mental contortions she'll put herself through to justify staying.

6 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Jane always wears the same outfit while jogging.  LOL.  Somebody's going to come out and say they do the same but to me it's funny.

I have multiple iterations of the same workout outfit, so it's not weird to me. It does stand out on a TV show, though. I think a lot of it is actually intentional repetitive shots, especially since the sweat stains are always in the same place.

10 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Does anyone remember in the first episode one of the neighbors commenting that Celeste was (much?) older than Perry? If so, I wonder how that plays into all of this. 

It probably has a lot to do with their dynamic. Abusers tend to seek out women who are vulnerable. If Celeste really wanted kids and was struggling with that and needed a lot of emotional support, that would make her a more attractive target to Perry.

[vixenbynight]

17 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Celeste seemed rather cold to Jane when Jane called to find out Madeline's condition.

Jane called Celeste during the beginning of dinner with her children and Perry. I think that Celeste was conscious of trying to keep everything  (meaning Perry) calm, happy and at peace, so that dinner went smoothly. 

[Ina123]

The therapist is much more insightful than Tony Soprano's Melfi. I think she's doing some tremendous acting also. All of them are Emmy performances to me.

If you haven't seen Deadwood, it's worth a watch just for Calamity Jane.

[mochamajesty]

17 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

You're welcome.  Laws vary from state to state but very little is done to protect in situations of IPV.  There are many therapists who will not work with couples.  Perry could state in session that he is going to go home and slap or punch Celeste - and there is nothing the therapist can do except to advise Perry to not do so and to created a safety plan with him and Celeste.  If he says he is going to cut off a portion of her pinky to punish her - is that homicidial ideation to warrant a report to police? No, not in my state.

But once children are involved -- these ethical gray areas become brighter and easier to understand.  Now, if Celeste were to state that the children observed Perry harming her or that he harmed the children, then the therapist would be obligated to contact child protective authorities -- in all states. 

Dr. Calamity Jane's client is the couple.  She was not practicing ethically by seeing Celeste alone - unless the session was discussed by the couple and clinician and was relevant to the treatment plan.  The clinician should inform Perry of deviations from the treatment plan (even though he is a creep). 

Exploring these ethical situations in classes and workshops is always fun but there is a sadness and heartbreak within the reality of these relationships.  The therapist is often as powerless as the victim. 

Wow, thanks so much for this inside info. I didn't start therapy until after I left my abuser, so this is new to me.

I wonder if Perry knew this, and that is why he suggested couples therapy.  Or maybe I am giving him too much credit.

The therapist's approach makes a lot more sense now. I will have to re-watch those scenes.

12 minutes ago, vixenbynight said:

Jane called Celeste during the beginning of dinner with her children and Perry. I think that Celeste was conscious of trying to keep everything  (meaning Perry) calm, happy and at peace, so that dinner went smoothly. 

This is how I read it, too.  She wasn't cold - she was on edge.  Her mind was on Perry and his possible reaction to her taking a phone call at meal time.

Edited March 20, 2017 by mochamajesty

[mochamajesty]

1 hour ago, vixenbynight said:

The therapist knows that Celeste, at this point isn't mentally and emotionally ready to truly accept that her relationship with Perry is abusive and that it will eventually have a negative affect on their children. Did anyone else notice that Celeste was the one offering Perry comfort when he broke down in tears after he abused and had sex with her? That's one of the many reasons why she continues to believe that she's "not a victim". She sees her husband weeping, so in her mind, she must have done something to cause him to act this way towards her.

I noticed that for each time Celeste was ready to leave the doctor's office, she found herself staying to listen to the next question or comment from the doctor.

She desperately wants everything to stop, go back to how it might have been with her husband,  but she doesn't know how that can happen.

It's also interesting that we haven't seen Perry talking to Celeste about attending another session with the therapist. I think he feels that one session was enough and that all thoughts of therapy have vanished from Celeste's mind.

The fact that she has to keep this from Perry, makes it even more evident in my mind that things will continue to get worse for her and those children.

He accomplished what he set out to do.  By 'confessing' that he beat her due to his own insecurities over Celeste leaving, now Celeste has to reassure him that she isn't going anywhere.  Now the onus of repairing the relationship is on Celeste.  You notice that we haven't seen Celeste threaten to leave again, either.

[dmc]

The whole Ziggy thing is so puzzling to me...no one has seen him attack Anabelle, Anabelle hasn't said he did anything to her after the first time...no one seems conscious of how much damage it could be doing to him to be accused of something based on nothing...

[mochamajesty]

1 minute ago, dmc said:

The whole Ziggy thing is so puzzling to me...no one has seen him attack Anabelle, Anabelle hasn't said he did anything to her after the first time...no one seems conscious of how much damage it could be doing to him to be accused of something based on nothing...

I stated this before in another thread. 

Most people on this forum blame the teacher for 'forcing' Amabella to lie about Ziggy and that Amabella should face no consequences for her lie.  That is not how I see it.  At the end of the day, Amabella lied and thus created a situation whereby Ziggy is bullied and ostracized.

I do think that Jane should be stronger, too.   In the meeting with Renata she seemed so passive.  It's almost as if Jane has doubts, too.

And I really thought that all of this was squashed by the therapist's report last week.

[dmc]

7 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

I stated this before in another thread. 

Most people on this forum blame the teacher for 'forcing' Amabella to lie about Ziggy and that Amabella should face no consequences for her lie.  That is not how I see it.  At the end of the day, Amabella lied and thus created a situation whereby Ziggy is bullied and ostracized.

I do think that Jane should be stronger, too.   In the meeting with Renata she seemed so passive.  It's almost as if Jane has doubts, too.

And I really thought that all of this was squashed by the therapist's report last week.

Right agreed Jane is way too passive.  Also, Renata needs to take Anabella to see someone professionally.  I mean she won't talk to her parents, she keeps coming home with marks on her...as a parent, I would take her to see someone to talk too.  It would be really concerning to me to have a child that is afraid to speak up when she needs help.  She seems like a little girl that has some issues that need to be worked out. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by dmc

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Renata and Gordon are officially the worst. They find a bite mark on their daughter and their reactions were to (1) scream at Amabella that she's being bullied and that this is upsetting her mommy and then (2) guilt trip her into telling them who it is because she so kind and she wouldn't want the perpetrator to hurt someone else who is innocent, implying that Amabella is somehow guilty.

Nitpick: I know that I didn't grow up in a neighborhood like Monterey with oceanfront views, but when I was in first grade, I didn't have a key to the house so there was no way I could have just walked into the house if someone dropped me off after school.

Perry's control freak ways rear their ugly head again. Of course it's Celeste's fault that she didn't make the kids clean up their toys so of course he thinks an appropriate reaction is to collect all the toys, dump them on her, punch her, and then fuck her.

And of course, Celeste keeps lying to herself and to her therapist. This is why it's so difficult to talk to someone who's in an abusive relationship. When confronted about the abuse, they often begin defending the other person, minimizing the abuse, blaming/accusing themselves. It's a defense mechanism that helps them rationalize that the relationship is NOT abusive and that other people just don't understand the abuser or their relationship (which is just another reason why the abuser NEEDS her - no one else gets him). To put it another way, it's like when someone says something negative about your mom/friend/boyfriend. Suddenly your instinct is to defend that person, even if you know it's true. The difference is that in an abusive relationship, the person already has so much shame about hiding the abuse that having someone confront them about it is really scary (sometimes scarier than the abuse itself) and it reinforces the abuser's attitude that no one will believe or understand.

Quote

I thought the therapist had a duty to break confidentiality and make a report to the authorities if she thought her patient was in danger and/or if a law was broken??

When Celeste brought up the therapist's ethical responsibility and duty of care, the therapist said, "I throw off the ethical chains when I sense a patient in danger."

 

Quote

Jane always wears the same outfit while jogging.  LOL.  Somebody's going to come out and say they do the same but to me it's funny.

I think it's also to illustrate that unlike the other characters on this show who have piles of money to spend on clothes (Celeste's clothing budget must be astronomical if Perry keeps ripping her outfits like we saw in this episode), Jane is The Poor One. But I think that her jogging outfits are plain and nondescript, a lot like Jane herself (as opposed to the clothes that we see the other female characters wearing which are often colorful or more fashionable or just somehow more distinctive).

Honestly, I haven't noticed her jogging outfits at all so I went back to see what she was wearing this week. I just assumed she was wearing something appropriate to sweat in. When the school called her in this episode, she was wearing black shorts, a black tank top, and a greenish/bluish/greyish zip up hoodie as she jogged at the beach. It's the same outfit she's wearing when we see her running with Celeste and Madeline and then at the cafe afterward.

In a later scene, she was wearing black leggings and a grey tank top when she got back to the house from running (right before she decided to drive to SLO).

When I took Bikram yoga classes, I had one hoodie that I reserved for coming/going to class because I didn't want to get every hoodie I had covered in sweat. As for the black shorts, I always have multiple items in black. When I found an awesome pair of black leggings, I went back and bought an extra pair so I could rotate them and make them last longer. I know everyone is into the crazy patterned leggings these days, but I still like my (multiple) black leggings because they go with everything!

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Renata and Gordon are officially the worst. They find a bite mark on their daughter and their reactions were to (1) scream at Amabella that she's being bullied and that this is upsetting her mommy and then (2) guilt trip her into telling them who it is because she so kind and she wouldn't want the perpetrator to hurt someone else who is innocent, implying that Amabella is somehow guilty.

Nitpick: I know that I didn't grow up in a neighborhood like Monterey with oceanfront views, but when I was in first grade, I didn't have a key to the house so there was no way I could have just walked into the house if someone dropped me off after school.

Perry's control freak ways rear their ugly head again. Of course it's Celeste's fault that she didn't make the kids clean up their toys so of course he thinks an appropriate reaction is to collect all the toys, dump them on her, punch her, and then fuck her.

And of course, Celeste keeps lying to herself and to her therapist. This is why it's so difficult to talk to someone who's in an abusive relationship. When confronted about the abuse, they often begin defending the other person, minimizing the abuse, blaming/accusing themselves. It's a defense mechanism that helps them rationalize that the relationship is NOT abusive and that other people just don't understand the abuser or their relationship (which is just another reason why the abuser NEEDS her - no one else gets him). To put it another way, it's like when someone says something negative about your mom/friend/boyfriend. Suddenly your instinct is to defend that person, even if you know it's true. The difference is that in an abusive relationship, the person already has so much shame about hiding the abuse that having someone confront them about it is really scary (sometimes scarier than the abuse itself) and it reinforces the abuser's attitude that no one will believe or understand.

When Celeste brought up the therapist's ethical responsibility and duty of care, the therapist said, "I throw off the ethical chains when I sense a patient in danger."

 

I think it's also to illustrate that unlike the other characters on this show who have piles of money to spend on clothes (Celeste's clothing budget must be astronomical if Perry keeps ripping her outfits like we saw in this episode), Jane is The Poor One. But I think that her jogging outfits are plain and nondescript, a lot like Jane herself (as opposed to the clothes that we see the other female characters wearing which are often colorful or more fashionable or just somehow more distinctive).

Honestly, I haven't noticed her jogging outfits at all so I went back to see what she was wearing this week. I just assumed she was wearing something appropriate to sweat in. When the school called her in this episode, she was wearing black shorts, a black tank top, and a greenish/bluish/greyish zip up hoodie as she jogged at the beach. It's the same outfit she's wearing when we see her running with Celeste and Madeline and then at the cafe afterward.

In a later scene, she was wearing black leggings and a grey tank top when she got back to the house from running (right before she decided to drive to SLO).

When I took Bikram yoga classes, I had one hoodie that I reserved for coming/going to class because I didn't want to get every hoodie I had covered in sweat. As for the black shorts, I always have multiple items in black. When I found an awesome pair of black leggings, I went back and bought an extra pair so I could rotate them and make them last longer. I know everyone is into the crazy patterned leggings these days, but I still like my (multiple) black leggings because they go with everything!

love black leggings, hate the crazy one everyone wears now

[ElectricBoogaloo]

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The twins know more than Celeste realizes. It was very telling that Perry scared them at the dinner table, and they went for their (laser? water?) guns for defense...and attacked Celeste, who hadn't done anything to them. They're obviously picking up on the fact that it's okay to confront Mom or pick on her and she won't do anything about it.

I think it was also telling that at the beginning of that scene (before Perry did his monster voice and chased them), they weren't eating dinner and they weren't listening when Celeste told them to eat, but as soon as Perry told them, they shut up, put down their toys, sat in their chairs,and started eating.

[BusyOctober]

The volume of the music in this show needs to be dialed back.  Yes, music adds to the emotion/pacing of a show, but when it is blaring at "11" it takes me out of the story while I scramble for the remote to turn it down.

You know what else I'd like to see dialed back?  Laura Dern's acting.  Never a big fan, but all her arm flailing and "look at me! I'm emoting anger" isn't working for me.  The Renata character should be outraged and angry and concerned (I would be in same situation), but Dern's acting seems over the top IMO.

As for the school being concerned about Ziggy's behavior...if so concerned or suspicious, why wouldn't the teacher or principal be actively watching any interaction between Amabella/Ziggy or how Ziggy behaves with any other kid in class or on the playground?  If this school is truly the special snowflake incubator the staff and the parents believe it to be, I'd expect more proactive intervention from the staff.

Add me to the "stop with the running montages already" faction.  I get it, Maddy, Celeste & Jane are all running "from" something & "toward " another.

I read the book so hiding this...

Spoiler

A few episodes ago, Jane said the name of her rapist is "Saxon Banks", Celeste had no reaction.  In the book, Celeste knows who Saxon Banks is!  I can't remember in the book if Jane or Maddy ever says the name to Celeste before the Audrey/Elvis party, so I thought it was odd in this show they had Jane say his name in front of Celeste at this early stage.

[nara]

7 minutes ago, dmc said:

Right agreed Jane is way too passive.  Also, Renata needs to take Anabella to see someone professionally.  I mean she won't talk to her parents, she keeps coming home with marks on her...as a parent, I would take her to see someone to talk too.  It would be really concerning to me to have a child that is afraid to speak up when she needs help.  She seems like a little girl that has some issues that need to be worked out. 

I wonder if Amabella would open up to her dad if Renata could shut up for 10 minutes. In the absence of rational parents, I  hope they take her to Ziggy's psychiatrist so she can put the pieces together.

13 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

I stated this before in another thread. 

Most people on this forum blame the teacher for 'forcing' Amabella to lie about Ziggy and that Amabella should face no consequences for her lie.  That is not how I see it.  At the end of the day, Amabella lied and thus created a situation whereby Ziggy is bullied and ostracized.

I do think that Jane should be stronger, too.   In the meeting with Renata she seemed so passive.  It's almost as if Jane has doubts, too.

And I really thought that all of this was squashed by the therapist's report last week.

I don't think we know yet that Amabella lied or (assuming she did) why. Yes, there should be consequences if she lied or was just mistaken, but they should be appropriate for the situation. She didn't volunteer that Ziggy hurt her. She was forced to choose someone while everyone was staring at her. However, the impact on Ziggy was terrible and continued after the incident, so she should be taught that it's unacceptable. Once we know why she did it and whether or not it was deliberate, the appropriate punishment can be defined.

And I thought that Jane flat out said that she wasn't sure whether or not Ziggy did it.

[Lana X]

I dont understand how amabella keeps having issues with a classmates like biting and nobody else sees it. that is baffling to me!

[dmc]

2 minutes ago, nara said:

I wonder if Amabella would open up to her dad if Renata could shut up for 10 minutes. In the absence of rational parents, I  hope they take her to Ziggy's psychiatrist so she can put the pieces together.

I don't think we know yet that Amabella lied or (assuming she did) why. Yes, there should be consequences if she lied or was just mistaken, but they should be appropriate for the situation. She didn't volunteer that Ziggy hurt her. She was forced to choose someone while everyone was staring at her. However, the impact on Ziggy was terrible and continued after the incident, so she should be taught that it's unacceptable. Once we know why she did it and whether or not it was deliberate, the appropriate punishment can be defined.

And I thought that Jane flat out said that she wasn't sure whether or not Ziggy did it.

Maybe...her mother seems to make everything about her...you can tell that she really had to work out hard to make it career wise and that seems to be what drives her advice to her daughter...the problem is there is big difference between 7 and 40 and her daughter may not have the same personality...I think Renata is the reason she's lying...that and fear. 

[annlaw78]

23 minutes ago, dmc said:

love black leggings, hate the crazy one everyone wears now

I miss boot cut yoga pants.  Sigh.  

I think this show's doing a fantastic job of showing the complexity of an abusive relationship, and depicting the many reasons why a smart, professional woman "with options" like Celeste would stay (aging/self-worth, truly thinking he's a great father/keeping family intact, being the "it" couple in town, history/loyalty, sex/being desired, etc.).  She's doing some top-shelf rationalizing.  It's more nuanced than the usual drunk-dude-comes-busting-through-the-mobile-home-door concept we usually see.

Edited March 20, 2017 by annlaw78

[ElectricBoogaloo]

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[annlaw78]

20 minutes ago, Lana X said:

I dont understand how amabella keeps having issues with a classmates like biting and nobody else sees it. that is baffling to me!

Especially since the bite looked like it happened on bare skin, not through kiddie designer-wear.  Makes me wonder if there isn't some game going on with another girl.  Girls playing out their mothers' competitiveness, etc. v. an abusive boy.  I think either scenario is thematically in keeping with the show.  

[mochamajesty]

20 minutes ago, nara said:

I wonder if Amabella would open up to her dad if Renata could shut up for 10 minutes. In the absence of rational parents, I  hope they take her to Ziggy's psychiatrist so she can put the pieces together.

I don't think we know yet that Amabella lied or (assuming she did) why. Yes, there should be consequences if she lied or was just mistaken, but they should be appropriate for the situation. She didn't volunteer that Ziggy hurt her. She was forced to choose someone while everyone was staring at her. However, the impact on Ziggy was terrible and continued after the incident, so she should be taught that it's unacceptable. Once we know why she did it and whether or not it was deliberate, the appropriate punishment can be defined.

And I thought that Jane flat out said that she wasn't sure whether or not Ziggy did it.

Of course my opinion is predicated on Ziggy's innocence.   If he is guilty, none of what I said applies. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

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I miss boot cut yoga pants.  Sigh.

Me too!