S06.E12: Murder Most Foul

[asabovesobelow]

6 minutes ago, Mathius said:

"Everything they've been through together" being Regina persecuting Snow, trying to kill her and her loved ones, and ruining her life.  And more importantly, showing little to no regret for any of that and barely doing anything to atone for it while Snow does all the apologizing and heavy-lifting in their "friendship".  THAT is why you're in the minority on this subject.

Fair enough - BUT there have been apologies and conversations about trying to move forward. I'm not sure that seeing Regina apologize and trying to atone for her past on a constant loop would be all that interesting to watch. Their friendship feels genuine to me.

And hey - I'm ok being in the minority. I like it, you don't, all good.

Regarding your addition of the 'disingenuous kitchen table moments' - I don't find them disingenuous at all. Regardless of who is doing the 'heavy lifting', they've been through a lot and their relationship has changed because of it.

Edited March 13, 2017 by asabovesobelow

[Rumsy4]

23 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I just remembered David knows George was responsible for his mother dying and he hasn't felt the need to murder him until now.  

No words for this. 

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

IMO, Regina has forfeited any say over Pistachio, since she has neglected to show any care for her at all. Zelena has been the one at the farmhouse changing diapers, feeding her, etc. 

Exactly. Regina stopped caring about Roland and Pistachio the moment Robin died. And at one point, she was claiming that Roland was part of her happy ending, and that she would bring up Pistachio. So much for Soul Mates...

[Curio]

Quote

I'm not sure that seeing Regina apologize and trying to atone for her past on a constant loop would be all that interesting to watch. 

Apologizing and atoning for past sins is all they've been doing with Hook over and over, and based on the reaction to the ending this episode, I think people are sick of that constant loop as well.

7 minutes ago, asabovesobelow said:

And hey - I'm ok being in the minority. I like it, you don't, all good.

We need a minority opinion around here. It keeps us from becoming an echo chamber.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Curio

[tennisgurl]

Really, there were lots of great things in this episode. Until the very end, it actually felt like classic Once. We had the return of some old characters, we had some cool locations, and Charming and Hook were both funny and emotional. Josh really is a good actor when they actually give him something to do, and he and Colin have great chemistry. But that ending...focusing on other stuff now.

I laughed really hard at the transition from Hook calling Pleasure Island a "Dark Place", then cut to...a low rent carnival! The horror! Actually, I thought that set was really cool, and I liked seeing sassy little Pinocchio. This episode also made me feel retroactively sad for James. He seemed like a nice kid, not the violent asshole we met before. King George is such an asshole.

The Robin/Regina stuff was alright. It was funny seeing Notingham just chilling in Storybrooke drinking a mocha latte with his plaid shirt and hipster haircut. His whole existence is still pretty pointless to me, and raises a ton of questions (whats with all this destiny crap? so Regina really did murder snow and charming right?), but I'm glad Sean gets something to do now. He`s a good actor, and it sucks that he signed on to play one of the great characters of Western Literature, and ended up just being a semi reformed villains prize for good behavior.

[Olivia Y]

Wait, what's the big deal? So Hook killed David's father? So what? Regina killed Snow's father and Emma's boyfriend and look how they fall all over themselves with love for her! Surely this will only make Hook and David's relationship even stronger!

Sigh. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Olivia Y

[Mathius]

14 minutes ago, Curio said:

Apologizing and atoning for past sins is all they've been doing with Hook over and over, and based on the reaction to the ending this episode, I think people are sick of that constant loop as well.

My big issue is that Regina already has a laundry list of particularly heinous sins against the Charming family that she has not apologized for...not "over and over", not even once.  And yet at the same time, the writers are fine with inventing new sins for Hook whole-cloth so that he can apologize for them, agonize over them, and work to atone for them.  It's a blatant double standard.  It's why the REC (Regina Exception Clause) is a thing.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Mathius

[asabovesobelow]

12 minutes ago, Mathius said:

My big issue is that Regina already has a laundry list of particularly heinous sins against the Charming family that she has not apologized for...not "over and over", not even once.  And yet at the same time, the writers are fine with inventing new sins for Hook whole-cloth so that he can apologize for them, agonize over them, and work to atone for them.  It's a blatant double standard.  It's why the REC (Regina Exception Clause) is a thing.

But Regina isn't trying to marry Emma. (Though I, of course, heartily wish that she were. But I digress.) It's a very different thing to be friends with someone than it is to be marrying them, or into their family. Regina has apologized for the horrible things she did to the Charming family, even if she didn't go item by item. She was a bad person, a very bad person, and I don't think that's been swept under the rug.  I am all for atonement but I don't want every interaction to revolve around it.

[OnceUponAJen]

This episode hit all the right notes for me in terms of emotional interactions between the characters.  I thought Charming was a little over the top.....stealing from his own daughter. That just seemed too OOC.  And I seriously couldn't believe he got into a knife fight with King George.  

I also could have done without the last minutes with the big twist. I had such positive feelings about Hook and Charming's relationship,  and I thought that validation was something that Killian deserved after all this time. Having him be the one that coincidentally killed David's father was a stretch. I mean, if Killian wanted to stick it to King George,  it would have made more sense to let the poor guy go.  He merely made sure the job got done as ordered.  But was I surprised by it?  No.

When Snow told Regina "You deserve this," did anyone else shout out, "No she doesn't!" Just me?

Edited March 13, 2017 by OnceUponAJen

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

When Snow told Regina "You deserve this," did anyone else shout out, "No she doesn't!" Just me?

I've heard it so many times I'm numb now.

I'm glad to know Hook murdering Daddy Charming hasn't been received well anywhere.

Edited March 13, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[TheGreenKnight]

I couldn't help laughing at the ending of this episode. The twist is the CS equivalent to finding out that Regina murdered Marian in the S3 finale. But I never thought Hook was better than Regina, so not a surprising turn of events.

Edited March 13, 2017 by TheGreenKnight

[tennisgurl]

Also, someone brought this up and I agree, Hook was a pirate, not an assassin! Why wouldn't he want to leave a witness to tell everyone about Hooks pirate deeds? Haven't they seen Black Sails? John Silver or Jack Rackham would have given Charming Dad their business card and told him to tell his friends!

ALSO, why the hell does Regina still have the hearts of all her victims laying around? Do they belong to still living people who are going around without hearts that Regina can control, or are they just the trophies of her murder victims? Either way, that's all kinds of fucked up. Do redeemed villains often keep the organs of their victims in their sex crypts?

Edited March 14, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Shanna Marie]

I think what we're seeing here is the result of having no character bible. They're obviously making up the character backstories as they go, based on the needs of the current plot. So, when we first got the "useless drunk got wasted and drove the supplies off the cliff" backstory, I'm fairly certain that they thought that was it, the real story, and it was just an excuse for David to need to have Anna give him a pep talk. Then they came up with that shocking twist of making Hook responsible, and they had to contort things beyond all sense to create a way that David's father could have been murdered by Hook without anyone, including Hook himself, having been aware of it, all this time. So now we have George having engineered a murder and a cover up based on a story George couldn't possibly have known about, then Hook stepping in and killing out of fear of being named as the killer of the guards even though Hook was commuting to and from Neverland at the time, and then Ruth either apparently believing the story or letting David grow up thinking that his father died as a useless drunk.

As for the question of why the Evil Queen would have spilled any of that story to David if it wasn't Hook, we do have that belief that killing anyone, even if they had it coming, will forever turn someone to the dark side. It would have fit the Evil Queen's (temporary) scheme to turn the good guys dark -- get David to kill George, and then there's another dark spot on the heart he and Snow share.

About Robin ... there was the theory that Wish!Robin was created as part of David's wish that the Evil Queen would get what she deserved, and since Regina and the Evil Queen are the same person, getting a brand new Robin was Regina getting what she deserved, but that doesn't quite fit if Wish!Robin isn't Regina's soulmate (well, some of us might think that not being given a brand new Robin is what Regina deserves, but the show clearly doesn't see it that way). The other theory was that somehow the essence of Robin was what created the new Robin, and that was why he was real enough to come to this world and why he was out of sync age-wise with the rest of that world. Except if he was made of the essence of Real!Robin, you'd think he'd have been Regina's soulmate still. And none of this explains how Nottingham was on the same timeline with Robin and also not aged.

[janett snakehole]

4 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I couldn't help laughing at the ending of this episode. The twist is the CS equivalent to finding out that Regina murdered Marian in the S3 finale. But I never thought Hook was better than Regina, so not a surprising turn of events.

I guess the difference would be that not a single person cared that Regina killed Marian, least of all Robin (her husband), but they've clearly set up that this is going to be a big deal. It'll be fine in the end, but they wrote this so that they have angst to disrupt the relationships between Killian x Charming and Killian x Emma. Whereas with Regina, I don't quite know why they had her be Marian's killer, because it amounted to nothing, there was no angst or issue because of it. 

[Souris]

I may have missed this in the ep (I truthfully wasn't paying too much attention), but: How did David and Hook know to go see August when the spell told them the coin was on Pleasure Island when Robert died? As far as I know, they didn't know he had been to Pleasure Island. It was like, "The coin was here! Let's go ask August about it!"

[KAOS Agent]

Emma has zero emotional attachment to her grandparents. I don't know why this murder would be any different than any of Hook's other murders. If the reveal had been that Hook murdered Neal back when Swanfire was together and that's why Emma was left alone & pregnant, that would be the Regina killed Marian equivalent and I would expect Emma to have serious feelings about that. I would be done with Captain Swan and expect Emma to be as well. However, on this show, Emma wouldn't ever even bring it up again. That's how meaningless this whole thing is. All it will do is make Hook more angsty and brooding and I just want my fun adventure show back. You know, the one we got before the final few minutes of this episode. 

Did anyone else laugh when Regina described kissing Not!Robin as kissing cardboard? She's been doing that for years and now that Robin actually has a non-cardboard personality and is interesting, he's suddenly cardboard. 

[Curio]

21 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I couldn't help laughing at the ending of this episode. The twist is the CS equivalent to finding out that Regina murdered Marian in the S3 finale. But I never thought Hook was better than Regina, so not a surprising turn of events.

Most of us called this way back in July. As much as A&E are always so nervous about the audience figuring out their plot twists (they've even admitted to wanting to alter scripts at the last second because the audience figured something out), they sure went all out with the most predictable "surprise" ever. The Josh/Colin Comic-Con interviews about this came out in July nearly 8 months ago—over half a year ago—so they had plenty of time to change the ending. They just didn't care.

And as @janett snakehole said, at least Hook will have to own up to killing Robert. If Hook was given the REC treatment, during the next episode, David would be screaming at Hook in front of everyone and calling him a monster, Hook would pout and walk away as the music in the background implies we should feel sorry for him, Emma would want to rush after him but Regina would stop her, and then at the end of the episode Emma would have a door-to-door conversation with Hook where she promises she'll give him a happy ending no matter what while he sits on the floor crying. This is why no one likes the REC—it's ridiculous if you put any other character into Regina's position. And even then, this situation wouldn't even happen if it was truly the REC because a true 1:1 comparison would mean that only Emma knows about Robert's death, and then for the rest of the series, David never finds out about what Hook did and it's never treated as an issue.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Curio

[snarkastic]

15 minutes ago, Souris said:

I may have missed this in the ep (I truthfully wasn't paying too much attention), but: How did David and Hook know to go see August when the spell told them the coin was on Pleasure Island when Robert died? As far as I know, they didn't know he had been to Pleasure Island. It was like, "The coin was here! Let's go ask August about it!"

I think it's part of the Pinocchio tale, so David just assumed. Or maybe Emma mentioned her conversation with August last episode to Hook offscreen. The real question is why would they assume Pinocchio was on the island during that time period. Have they always known he's that old?

Edited March 13, 2017 by snarkastic

[Shanna Marie]

3 minutes ago, snarkastic said:

The real question is why would they assume Pinocchio was on the island during that time period. Have they always known he's that old?

I think that was a happy coincidence, maybe? So Hook recognizes Pleasure Island, David digs into his fake Storybrooke memories and remembers seeing the Disney movie version of Pinocchio and says, hey, it's worth a shot to have a chat with August. Maybe he can tell us a little more about Pleasure Island that might give us some clue about what David's father might have been doing there, since that is a place associated with Pinocchio, and then due to a remarkable coincidence, it just so happens that Pinocchio not only was there, but had a chat with David's father that told them exactly what they needed to know.

What's funny is that they had to go through all that stuff about stealing spell supplies, doing a spell, and talking to August to come to the exact same conclusion that we came to as soon as we learned that David's father was murdered. You don't even have to be watching the show and knowing these writers' go-to tricks. All you have to do is ask why a peasant's murder would be covered up like that, when no one should care whether he was murdered or died in an accident, and when you consider that the peasant was the father of the king's secretly adopted son, it all leads straight to at least having a little chat with George -- months ago (or weeks, who knows on this show), back when David first learned that his father was murdered. It's pretty obvious and straightforward. Not to mention that Ruth should have told David long ago that there was a good chance his father didn't die in a drunk driving accident. As soon as David learned he had a twin, she could have let him know the truth, or at the very least she should have told him while he was at war with George. Wouldn't she have wanted him to know that his father tried to get James back, and he died along the way?

And wouldn't dying the way he did count as big-time Unfinished Business that would have sent him to the Underworld? He wasn't able to rescue his son, and his other son grew up thinking he was a useless drunk. He clearly didn't resolve things with James, so he shouldn't have been able to move on.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

But @Shanna Marie, if they'd spent time on Robert's unfinished business in the Underworld, then Regina wouldn't have been able to have closure with a horse! 

[Camera One]

45 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

As soon as David learned he had a twin, she could have let him know the truth, or at the very least she should have told him while he was at war with George. Wouldn't she have wanted him to know that his father tried to get James back, and he died along the way?

This is very true, and I hadn't thought about it until you said it.  There's no reason why Ruth wouldn't have told David this in "The Shepherd", or maybe when she was about to die in that 2A episode I don't remember the name of.

I just looked up the most boring, poorly written monologue that David had to give to Anna in "White Out": 

Quote

When I was 6 years old, one morning, I woke up hearing my father and mother go at it. They fought a lot... Usually over the same thing... His drinking. But this time, something was different, and I heard my father not yelling, but crying... And through the tears, he said to my mother words I would never forget... "I will beat this." He said to her, "I have to be better for the boy. I have to be different. I have to stop." And he promised he would. Every few months, we needed supplies. It was a two-week journey... Usually one that was a two-week bender. But he said he was leaving this time, and he wouldn't touch a drop, and in two weeks, he would be back home, himself again... Her husband, my father. We'd be a family. My mother kept this secret from me, but I knew. And every morning for two weeks, I woke with a smile on my face knowing my father would be back. So... On the 14th day, I arose, and I heard a knock at the door, and I ran to open it, ready to hug my father... And I was greeted by the local constable. Yeah, my father fought his battle... And for 13 days, he won. But on the 14th, he spent his last night in a tavern... And they found his body in the wreckage of our cart at the bottom of a ravine. Some battles can't be won. Some forces are too strong.

I guess they could chalk it up to "unreliable narrator" and "flawed human memory" that David's father never actually said "I will beat this."  Did David just assume that he stayed sober for 13 days and then spend his last night in the tavern?  That seems awfully specific.  Or did Ruth make that up?  But then, in that monologue, David said "My mother kept this secret from me".  What secret?  

You could go to see Rumple, find Pleasure Island AND come back in 13 days and have the Constable find your body in time?  Efficient service in the Enchanted Forest indeed.

How would Hook know to fake David's father's death by having the cart go into a ravine?  How about the other two mens' bodies?

It's pretty sad that David's father was willing to stop drinking for James, but not for David.  

Edited March 13, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

24 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But @Shanna Marie, if they'd spent time on Robert's unfinished business in the Underworld, then Regina wouldn't have been able to have closure with a horse! 

True. Plus, they clearly had no inkling of this stuff when they were doing the Underworld plot. Otherwise, wouldn't James have said something to David about how their birth father had changed his mind and wanted James instead of David -- or something along those lines?

And in addition to David being a little dense in not going straight to George when he learned that his father was murdered and it was made to look like an accident, while I do believe they intended that Hook didn't put two and two together until he saw the picture and recognized Robert, how many men did Hook stab and then send over a cliff with a cart that he didn't realize they were talking about the same person? Or did David not tell him details about how his father died, just that they were looking for his killer?

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But then, in that monologue, David said "My mother kept this secret from me".  What secret?

The way the monologue sounds, David overheard this discussion and Ruth didn't know that David knew his father was going to change while on this trip, and Ruth didn't say anything. But that's not what they showed us happening. David overheard the discussion about going to find James, and his father told him directly that he was going to get supplies, and when he came back they'd be a family again.

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

How would Hook know to fake David's father's death by having the cart go into a ravine?  How about the other two mens' bodies?

Why would he have even bothered shoving the cart into the ravine? Or maybe he didn't? George started to wonder if the job was done properly when his men didn't come back, they found the bodies and the cart, so they finished the job of shoving the cart and Robert into the ravine and took the soldiers' bodies back home, with a story about dying in the line of duty. And that would explain why Hook didn't figure it out -- if he didn't shove the cart, then he wouldn't be going "Oh, that guy I killed and sent into a ravine with a cart."

And we have now officially put more thought into this plot than the writers did, when they obviously didn't so much as go back and read the script or watch the episode in which David described the circumstances of his father's death.

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

when they obviously didn't so much as go back and read the script or watch the episode in which David described the circumstances of his father's death.

That's just mindblowing to me.  I mean, WTF.  Is it that difficult to find a transcript of the old script?  Considering the writer was the same one?

But as I said, they could always just say David's memory is messed up, plus he was so young.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

But as I said, they could always just say David's memory is messed up, plus he was so young.

But Hook can remember a face he saw in the dark for 30 seconds decades ago, and associate it with a vague illustration.

Edited March 13, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But as I said, they could always just say David's memory is messed up, plus he was so young.

Wouldn't he remember the difference between overhearing it and going downstairs and having an actual conversation with his father with his mother present? It was the last time he saw his father, so you wouldn't think he'd forget the last conversation he had with him.

Plus, I have to side-eye Ruth here. Yeah, she was in a precarious situation, and I could see why she'd be worried that George would come after her and David if she crossed him, if she suspected he'd had a hand in Robert's death, but surely she could have done that without letting David grow up thinking that his father had failed him by falling back on his promise, so that David had serious issues with fatalism and self-esteem.

Oh, and was the local constable in on it? Because Robert didn't spend his last night in a tavern. He rejected the drink in Pleasure Island. The story the constable told was a lie and part of the cover up.

[Camera One]

Quote

Wouldn't he remember the difference between overhearing it and going downstairs and having an actual conversation with his father with his mother present? It was the last time he saw his father, so you wouldn't think he'd forget the last conversation he had with him.

Plus he explained it in such a specific and sequential way.  Not to mention Ruth saw David talking to his father... so why would he continue to believe his mother thought he didn't know about the father's promise?  

I can understand Ruth not telling Young David about his brother and the dad's real reason for leaving (since they would be in real danger if King George's big secret came out), but certainly not after Adult David found out.  Ruth probably truly thought David's father went drinking since the King's men poured alcohol all over him.  Strange the constable could smell the alcohol but not notice the sword wound.  I suppose that could have been a giant ravine.

Wouldn't the local people find it awfully suspicious that Shepherd David looked exactly like Prince James?  Though I suppose George said he was from a neighboring kingdom when he went into the tavern.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Camera One

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Once Upon A Time Finally Tells Us The Whole Truth About David's Father

You know, that loose end you've been losing sleep over since Season 2? Oh, you weren't? You'd forgotten all about it and didn't actually care at all? Oh well, here it is anyway!

[Shanna Marie]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Strange the constable could smell the alcohol but not notice the sword wound.  I suppose that could have been a giant ravine.

That's why I'm pretty sure the constable had to be in on it. He reported that Robert had been in a tavern, drinking, the night before the "accident" when we know that he wasn't, that he went from home to Rumple's castle to Pleasure Island -- where he rejected a drink -- to in the custody of George's soldiers. And he conveniently didn't mention the stab wound, which was known about because Rumple had records of it. So, yeah, George paid him off. And I've decided that until otherwise corrected, my headcanon is going to be that Hook just left the cart there, and it was George's people who pushed it over and hid the bodies of the soldiers.

8 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Not to mention Ruth saw David talking to his father... so why would he continue to believe his mother thought he didn't know about the father's promise?

Yeah, that part doesn't make sense, either. It's impossible to reconcile "I overheard this, and my mother didn't know I heard and didn't say anything about it" with overhearing something, coming down, and having a specific conversation (saying the same things that were in the earlier speech) with his mother present. It would have been an easy enough fix if Robert merely hadn't said anything to Ruth, if he'd just headed out, telling her that things were going to be different, and David overheard it. Same results, but it fits what was already established. Then Ruth has nothing that she should have told David and has more reason to believe the cover-up story.

I can kind of buy no one recognizing David as being James's twin. It was a neighboring kingdom, and this is in the days before mass media, so pictures of Prince James wouldn't have been plastered all over the place -- it's not like Americans being able to recognize Prince Harry. Meanwhile, David had that awful wig and didn't seem to get out much. If he stayed around the farm, then not too many people would have seen him (and Ruth would have had good reason to keep him close to home so he wouldn't be recognized). Then again, he somehow was friends with an ice merchant from Arendelle, so he wasn't entirely isolated. You do wonder how someone like Bo Peep hadn't ever run into James.

[cuppasun]

(from the article):
>>Everyone treats David like Emma's dad even though they're for all intents and purposes the same age and he didn't raise her! (Sorry, that one might just be me.)<<

Nope, not just you!

[oncebluethrone]

2 hours ago, OnceUponAJen said:

When Snow told Regina "You deserve this," did anyone else shout out, "No she doesn't!" Just me?

I did in my head.

[Camera One]

I was actually *waiting* for Snow to say something like that the entire conversation and the Writers didn't disappoint.  A drinking game with this show would be just so easy.

[Rumsy4]

22 minutes ago, oncebluethrone said:

2 hours ago, OnceUponAJen said:

When Snow told Regina "You deserve this," did anyone else shout out, "No she doesn't!" Just me?

I did in my head.

I mean it depends on how one looks at the situation. I think Regina deserved to be questioned by Not!Robin on her hypocrisy. If somehow Real!Robin was miraculously returned to her, I would consider it as her getting beyond what she deserved, but I wouldn't mind/care one way or the other.

[andromeda331]

14 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I mean it depends on how one looks at the situation. I think Regina deserved to be questioned by Not!Robin on her hypocrisy. If somehow Real!Robin was miraculously returned to her, I would consider it as her getting beyond what she deserved, but I wouldn't mind/care one way or the other.

That was when she knew it wouldn't work out. Not the kiss. But he questioned her about being hypocrite. Only bad people question Regina like that.

[Curio]

Couldn't Hook just borrow some of Regina's Jekyll Juice, separate himself into Captain Hook and Killian Jones, and then blame Robert's death on his alter ego?

No? Is that only reserved for REC members?

[thuganomics85]

Whelp, that happened.  A pretty good episode with Charming and Hook (I just get a kick out of how Josh Dallas and Colin O'Donoghue play off one another), David Cubitt was pretty good as Richard, a flashback I was actually kind of interested in, Archie actually being helpful, and a return of George and Alan Dale being his normal, awesome, sneering self.  I didn't even mind Hook wanting Charming's blessing to marry Emma, because while dated, I at least find blessing less possessive and weird then asking for permission, like some shows still do (looking at you, The Flash!)  Plus, yeah, for better or worse, Hook is an old-fashion guy.

But that ending had to come.  So, Hook killed Richard a.k.a. Charming's dad?  Yeah, there was a whole bunch of stuff that didn't work for me there.  First, I thought the whole pirate thing was wanting to be credited for their plunders, so it would have made way more sense for him to spare Richard, and have him go into the world and tell everyone that George just got his shit stolen by Hook, the most Awesome Pirate in the World!  Second, the Hook from the past never struck me as someone who would randomly kill, even if he was bad.  He could clearly see Richard was a prisoner and had no love for George, so I don't see Hook thinking it would have even been worth the effort.  Finally though, even if this was the path the writers really would have wanted to go down, they could have done it in so many ways, that wouldn't sabotaged the character.  They could have had him hired by George to track down James, he and Richard get into a fight, and then he kills him.  Sure, it would technically be self-defense, but the fight would only happen because he was helping a bad man, so it will still play into the "He was evil back then" plot.  

Or, it might have been more interesting if the first two killed Richard, Hook then showed up and kills them, have one of his henchmen say "You know, had we attacked earlier, we probably could have saved that fellow.", and have Hook just brush it off all "Eh, wasn't worth the effort."  That say, he didn't flat-out kill Richard, but he let him die just because he didn't care.  That will still accomplish what I suspect the writers want, which is that Hook holds responsibility for Richard's fate, and will lead to conflict and friction with Charming and likely Emma, when it all comes out (and it is so going to come out, of course.)  Instead, we get this instead, and it is just a stupid twist to put a dent in Emma/Hook, and his Hook's relationship with the Charmings in general.  I don't even think it is out of malice from the writers when it comes to Hook: they just don't care, anymore, and are looking for any way to "shake things up."  Disappointing.

Meanwhile, Alt-Robin has somehow become my favorite character on this show.  I was cracking up over his adjustment to things (hey, I sometimes think my alarm clock is the "Devil's Box" too!), his slightly more impulsive and violent methods (I'm glad Regina stopped him, but I got a kick out of him going after poor Nottingham), and, of course, him pointing out how stupid it is for Regina to give him shit, considering she still has the hearts of all of her victims just hanging around in her lair.  Of course, he ends up stealing some kind of box, so naturally he will be evil, because anyone who is mean to Regina is clearly the bad one.  Sigh.  At least there doesn't seem to be a spark between them.  I would find it darkly hilarious if he ends up falling for Zelena instead!

I guess that moment where Rumple took Richard's hair as "payment", only to flick it away, was showing that he really didn't need it, and just wanted to help Richard?

At least Snow is woken back up for a scene or two.  Where she basically just hangs with Regina and listens to her issues.  Yes, poor Regina! I'm sure the woman who is currently unable to spend time with the love of her life thanks to a sleeping curse, totally wants to hear about how bad your love life is!

There really is something going on with August that is making me give him the side-eye.

So, overall, a good episode (no surprise, Jane Espenson wrote it), but that ending has really taken the wind out of my sails.

[CCTC]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

What's funny is that they had to go through all that stuff about stealing spell supplies, doing a spell, and talking to August to come to the exact same conclusion that we came to as soon as we learned that David's father was murdered.

I can ignore that lack of logic in the story, because the spell was worth it just to see David and Hook spinning around counter clockwise and Hook's attempted raccoon quip. 

[Shanna Marie]

You know, the scenes between Snow and Regina wouldn't have been so weird if Snow had been holding her baby. At least that way it would have looked like she was spending her waking hours with some of her family. Maybe Emma was off living her life, but you'd think that in the time she had available, she'd have been holding her baby. Who was watching the kid when she was at Regina's house having coffee and talking about Regina's love life? David isn't a viable babysitter, since he's physically incapable of waking up even if the baby is shrieking his lungs out. I guess the same applies to David's running around while Snow is sleeping. Who's watching the baby?

And you have to wonder what Snow thought when she found out she'd been kept asleep far longer than their arrangement, and why. Or did no one tell her?

One positive thing: I'm impressed with how Colin manages to give Hook a raw vulnerability while not showing any actual vulnerability. Like in that early scene in front of the house, when David lashes out at him about being a pirate. You can see the hurt in Hook's eyes even while he's not showing that David hurt him. Then there's the way in both the scene with Archie and the scene with Emma that he starts out very guarded, keeping things on a surface level where he's clearly hiding something, and then he drops the guard and goes deep. It's not a drastic change on his face, but there's something subtle that does change that makes him suddenly look so much more vulnerable and exposed.

I liked the scene with Archie, but I think an apology needed to be in there. Hook's apologized to Belle, both superficially and later sincerely, and he owes one to Archie. I've imagined a few scenes between Hook and Archie, mostly because you'd think Hook would be dealing with some serious PTSD now, and in my head, they always start with an awkward but sincere apology for the abduction and imprisonment. Archie's a bit wary at first, but then Pongo (who is always there in my mental versions because I love dogs) takes well to Hook, so Archie decides to forgive and trust him, and then the session can start.

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And you have to wonder what Snow thought when she found out she'd been kept asleep far longer than their arrangement, and why. Or did no one tell her?

It really tells you what/who the Writers care about and what/who they don't.

Snow missed a series of very important events including Emma being sent to and then returning from the Wish Realm, Emma's murderer coming to Storybrooke, Emma battling him, etc., plus as you said, David chose not to wake her up for two days, yet she got zero reaction.

Did David dismantle that "Crazy conspiracy theorist" board before waking up Snow?  

They might as well replace Snow with a potted plant and Regina can talk to that, since they value the character *that* much.

[maryle]

Watched and overall loved it!

I liked all the dynamic in the episode.

CS scene were good and believable.

Captain charming was really strong and I do believe it could has come off at too much ( regarding Killian need to have David approbation)

But, I understood it was a mix of self loathing, need to be welcome in the Charming clan...

And, Josh and Colin make their scene work like Jen and Colin elevate the cs scene too.

I liked even the OQ storyline even if I don't get the relevance of it. At least it does make me smile this time but it is really what they were going for?

I liked the tiny bit of Emma and Charming in the group scene at the beginning.

But, there the reveal came and leave me with a annoying feeling.

Because, it just so repetitive to have Hook killed the father for this show.

It lost real emotional impact a long time ago!! 

But, now we again will be dealing with secret that will be forgive before everyone sing and dance together in ep. 20.

Indeed, the marriage will definitely feel rush!

[LaChavalina]

Not too much to add, except that I find the show overall way too dark right now. Robin is an evil Robin. Snow and Charming are still cursed and apart. Gideon is a dangerous kook and is obvs going to try and kill Emma again. Hook killed Emma's grandpa. Baby Neal is left to his own devices. Everyone is miserable. It doesn't make for very rewarding viewing.

[Kktjones]

6 minutes ago, LaChavalina said:

It doesn't make for very rewarding viewing.

I just made a similar post in the Fandom thread. I don't think the writers realize how much they are turning people off. At this point they've managed to piss off pretty much every single fanbase. I did think last night's episode was a little bit of a respite from the darkness (esp. scenes like Hook & Charming playing with their chemistry set and Hook trying to distract Emma with a kiss), but then they pulled out those last couple scenes and it was all shot to hell.

[Camera One]

I think they could have picked a better reason for James to run away than he didn't want to become a knight.  Considering how hyper aggressive he became, it seems kind of unlikely.  It seems another case where they just make the younger version of the character the polar opposite of what they became later.

[Arnella]

7 hours ago, BoPeeps said:

(Rumple I miss you!!  And I miss the strong women, too)

YES!

7 hours ago, Mathius said:

"Everything they've been through together" being Regina persecuting Snow, trying to kill her and her loved ones, and ruining her life.  And more importantly, showing little to no regret for any of that and barely doing anything to atone for it while Snow does all the apologizing and heavy-lifting in their "friendship".  THAT is why you're in the minority on this subject. These "kitchen table" moments are completely unearned and disingenuous. 

Yes times 1000!

I gave up on the show but read the comments saying this was like the old (good) episodes so gave it another shot.  

I threw up in my mouth a little when Regina joined in the toast for "family".  

The aforementioned Snow/Regina coffee-clatch made me want to slap Snow as per usual - snap out of it!  Whenever you are feeling an urge to have a nice heart to heart with Regina, flick a rubber band on your wrist, then go spend quality time with your ACTUAL family.  Emma has 30 years of mom-time coming to her.  Your father's murderer, who ruined the lives of everyone you love including said daughter (plus trying to murder her as an infant), can take care of her own life.  Good on you for forgiving her I guess - now, walk AWAY.

Almost but not quite evil-fun then woe-is-me Rumple left me cold.

Then the gawd-awful "twist".  Just NO.

[tennisgurl]

I was kind of amused by how much work went into making Charming Dads murder look like an accident. Would people even know? They couldn't just chuck him in the ocean and tell some locals he was drunk? Your the king! Is CSI: Enchanted Forest that thorough?

I'm not bothered by Hook asking for Charmings blessing (unlike that super weird scene over on The Flash) because he was asking for a blessing, and not permission. I'm sure he would have asked Emma even if Charming told him to screw himself, but he wanted to be on good terms with Charming In Law. Plus, I think he just wanted to clarify where they stand, because Charming tends to run pretty hot and cold on Hook. One week, its all "Screw you Pirate Boy! You smell like cheap rum and poor life choices!" with glares and snark, and the next its all "Welcome back, come here bro!" with hugs and bro pats. Really, if this was a different kind of show, I would say Charming kind of acts like Hooks on/off love interest, in a Han/Leia kind of way. I mean, they are kind of the same age, despite being perspective father/son in law (discounting universe traveling and curses).

[Camera One]

Rumple could have told Charming more about what happened to his father, but in his case, I guess it makes sense that he wouldn't.

Heck, I want next episode to show how Charming's dad also met Granny, Grumpy, Blue, Ariel and Mulan on next week's episode of "How To Get Away With Murder In The Enchanted Forest".

Couldn't he have gotten Henry to write his father's story?

Edited March 14, 2017 by Camera One

[Noneofyourbusiness]

8 hours ago, kirkola said:

Personally I'd love to see Belle giving one of her sanctimonious speeches and have Rumple roll his eyes and say something like "really, you're not so innocent either, since you are the one that killed Gaston".

She had no idea the rose was a person, so that can't count against her.

19 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

Or it would be Rumple levels of cruel if Rumple wasn't suddenly giving free deals to a man he had previously been cruel to. I thought Rumple wanted a Prince in place for his future plans? How would it benefit him to reunite James with his family? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to him to make a deal with George to find his son? I don't buy this piece of kindness. 

I don't think his True Love plan required David to be a prince.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Kktjones said:

At this point they've managed to piss off pretty much every single fanbase.

The SwanQueen gang might be somewhat hopeful, given that a huge monkey wrench was thrown in the relationship between Hook and Emma, and Regina decided she was meh on Wish!Robin. The more delusional will decide that this really does mean that the way is being paved for Emma and Regina to realize their true feelings for each other.

In all my gripes about this episode, here's one little thing that's been nagging at me: Archie in talking about how Hook had changed mentioned that Hook used to be a pirate, and Hook corrected him that technically, he still was.

How is Hook still a pirate? Has he done anything that would remotely qualify as piracy since early during the missing year? Hasn't he given up doing pirate-type things? And wouldn't that make him a former pirate rather than still being a pirate? Not long before that scene, he acted like David kicked him in the gut when he referred to him as a pirate, but he didn't tell Archie that David still thinks of him as a pirate. He said he still was one. Does he consider himself still a pirate as long as he has a stolen ship? Or are they going the route from the Pirates of the Caribbean movies where they act like pirates are some kind of oppressed ethnic/cultural group that the mean old British won't allow to live in peace and carry out their customs, rather than them being pirates because they engage in the act of piracy? And so even though he's not actually engaging in piracy, Hook still identifies as a pirate, but it's still an insult if someone who thinks piracy is bad calls him a pirate?

31 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I was kind of amused by how much work went into making Charming Dads murder look like an accident. Would people even know? They couldn't just chuck him in the ocean and tell some locals he was drunk?

That's what I was thinking. Pleasure Island was an island, so it would have been easy to dump him overboard from the boat on the way back to the mainland, then pay off the constable to come give the family the sad news that he got drunk at Pleasure Island and fell overboard and drowned.

And this, boys and girls, is why it's dangerous to retcon your retcons. When you throw in a random backstory to fit a plot without having a firm idea of your character's history, and then you build an additional plot on that backstory, twisting it to fit your current plot, and when you don't re-read or re-watch the episode in question before writing the new one, things get really, really messy.

[ParadoxLost]

11 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Rumple could have told Charming more about what happened to his father, but in his case, I guess it makes sense that he wouldn't.

I'm not sure I agree.

Charming knew a deal with Rumple is why his brother was given away.  Wouldn't it be in Rumple's self interest to tell Charming that he'd helped point his father towards finding his brother.  There isn't a reason to think that Rumple's desire to want Neal to forgive him wouldn't translate to sympathizing with Charming and his father.  so why is one motivation to help with a token payment (sending Charming's Dad to Pleasure Island) and the other isn't.  He got the payment re: Belle there was no reason he couldn't divulge more.

[Camera One]

Quote

How is Hook still a pirate?

Because he's dressed like one and his new career is branding.

Quote

Hook still identifies as a pirate, but it's still an insult if someone who thinks piracy is bad calls him a pirate?

As Archie said, "It sounds complicated".

Quote

Wouldn't it be in Rumple's self interest to tell Charming that he'd helped point his father towards finding his brother.

The Writers basically don't want it to be told until this episode, so Rumple didn't tell him.  Ditto for Ruth never telling him.  It's all for da plot.  Or we could be really cynical and say they had no idea Rumple knew when they wrote Episode 3 of this season.

Quote

Gideon is a dangerous kook and is obvs going to try and kill Emma again.

It's probably not obvious to our dimwit heroes who feel it's the perfect time to go canoeing/investigating cold cases/feeling out duplicate boyfriends.  Plus Gideon is pouting on a log right now so he's not dangerous.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Camera One

[scenicbyway]

So, in a million years did anyone ever think that  Killian would show Emma's engagement ring to Archie of all people first?  I just can't beleive it!

[jhlipton]

"Emma, you know I've done a lot of bad things -- I've killed people who didn't deserve it.  Last night I found out that a man I killed to get the treasure he was with (never mind about why, since I don't even know) was, in curious and insular way that everybody in StoryBrooke is somebody else's father or sister or whatever... well, he was David's dad.  It's not like I killed the guy to hurt David, and back then, I had no clue who David was, much less who he father was.  But while I'm not the man I was (and thank you for that), I am the man who killed him."
This week in "Scenes we'll never see".

 

15 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

why the hell does Regina still have the hearts of all her victims laying around? Do they belong to still living people who are going around without hearts that Regina can control, or are they just the trophies of her murder victims? Either way, that's all kinds of fucked up. Do redeemed villains often keep the organs of their victims in their sex crypts?

Let's say they're just trophies (because otherwise EWWWWWWWWW!).   Bear with me here...
David and Snow each have half of David's (I think) heart, right?  That means that any heart will work in any person.  That means that Regina can take one of those "trophies" and put it in Snow, then when David is awake, she gives him his heart back (and he thanks her whole-heartedly!)

Why not?