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S06.E12: Murder Most Foul


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I can only echo others, that this episode seemed unusually enjoyable until those last few moments.  Sigh.  I was feeling some hope for the rest of the season, but it's been extinguished.  A&E just can't seem to resist the stupidest path.

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15 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

And we had yet another moment where Emma mentions something domestic she and Hook will be doing off-screen (was it popcorn?), but we'll never get to witness. This ship is running on empty now.

I feel like the show going on right off screen is a really good show. Much better than what we see every week.

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What a way to ruin a perfectly good episode.

I was never as crazy about Captain Charming as most people, but this episode made me a fan. 

Such an entertaining, poignant episode focused on main characters and they had wrapped it up perfectly. I usually enjoy the show's twists, but this is so cheap. And Killian and Emma and Charming were all so happy too :( 

I really enjoyed Wish!Robin calling Regina out though. 

Edited by MaiLuna
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14 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Had we ever seen Hook kill random innocents before? I thought him killing Daddy Charming was dark, even for him.

Not really. And yes, it was dark, even for him. The only people we had seen Hook kill on screen before this was Claude and Merlin. And Claude was a random redshirt guard and Merlin was technically Nimue's doing. (Fun fact: when Emma killed Cruella on screen in Season 4, at that time, she had the same onscreen kill count as Hook.) Hook has apparently done killings offscreen and he told Emma about the stories behind the rings, but he's never been shown as being this random in his killings. He's usually a bit more resourceful like the flashback where he and Smee used the fire arrows to scare the men into giving up their gold.

Edit: And Brennan...

Edit Again: Oh, and Dr. Jekyll...but he wasn't exactly innocent.

Edited by Curio
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This is the first time we've seen him kill someone when it was completely unnecessary for his revenge, IIRC. I'm not saying all the other killings were justified but there was at least some reason given for the previous killings (except for the poor ring guy he killed for drinking his wine and the other one who he killed for insulting him, but we were told about those not shown them). Not only that, but Papa Charming professed to dislike the King, something Hook would normally like. For some reason, Hook was worried about George going after him for killing the guards, which also doesn't make sense because Hook presumably was only there on a short trip from Neverland and has also never been afraid of despotic monarchs. So it seems like Hook killed him simply for a bag of gold. Not even to use in Pleasure Island because he also said he'd never been there even though he was hanging out on the road to it. 

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6 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

This is the first time we've seen him kill someone when it was completely unnecessary for his revenge, IIRC. I'm not saying all the other killings were justified but there was at least some reason given for the previous killings (except for the poor ring guy he killed for drinking his wine and the other one who he killed for insulting him, but we were told about those not shown them). Not only that, but Papa Charming professed to dislike the King, something Hook would normally like. For some reason, Hook was worried about George going after him for killing the guards, which also doesn't make sense because Hook presumably was only there on a short trip from Neverland and has also never been afraid of despotic monarchs. So it seems like Hook killed him simply for a bag of gold. Not even to use in Pleasure Island because he also said he'd never been there even though he was hanging out on the road to it. 

Yeah... this. I also thought Hook would have a soft spot for Daddy Charming, because he wouldn't want to leave children orphaned like he was. Even Rumple had that much going for himself. But, you know, #HookIsWorse

Fans who hate CS are going to have a field day with this.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Skimming through the spoilers thread, the Hook killing David's dad twist was so shocking that we started predicting something along those lines in July, after the ComicCon interview with Josh and Colin, in which they mentioned the bromance growing closer before something about Hook's past coming up. At that time, we weren't quite predicting that Hook killed David's father, but we figured it was along those lines. I wonder if this storyline was originally supposed to be earlier in the season and got bumped and rewritten to fit the plot at this time, because it's the only thing this season that fits the way they talked in that interview, and I doubt the writers would have told them in that kind of detail a planned plot for the second half of the season.

Then, from October:

On 10/17/2016 at 5:33 PM, Shanna Marie said:

Next week's the Nemo one that's a Hook-centric, right? So probably the one where we find out that Hook is to blame for David's father's death, which means there will be probably one scene of Hook and David bonding in this next episode. Otherwise, I'm not really seeing the "bromance" Colin and Josh were talking about in the ComicCon interviews that would be torn apart by a secret coming out. All they've done so far is arrest Hyde together. Then we had David griping about Emma and Hook yet again. Not really a bromance that's going to be torn up when a horrible truth about Hook's past comes out.

I was wrong about it coming up in that episode, but called Hook killing David's father. Shocking twist isn't shocking.

On 10/19/2016 at 3:17 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I came up with this in the episode thread for "The Other Shoe," but have there been any rumors of George coming back? Because that's about the only explanation for a cover-up of a murder of a random peasant I could think of. Yeah, it's probably going to be Hook who killed David's father, for maximum emotional and relationship impact, but really, why would that be hidden? Why fake the cart accident or hide the stabbing if it was some pirate who killed him? Why wouldn't the family have been told that their husband/father got into a fight with a one-handed pirate, and he had stab wounds in his body? Or why wouldn't they have been told that he had stab wounds and wasn't just killed in the wreck? Someone had to know for Rumple to have it in his records, so it's not just that their kingdom's CSI team sucks and didn't notice the stab wounds or just saw the wreckage and assumed it was the wreck and didn't bother looking at any other evidence. About the only reason for hiding something like that would be if it was to cover up the involvement of someone higher up who wanted it kept quiet, and that brings us to George. Did Daddy Shepherd say something about the son he gave up or did he approach George while on that errand and demand that his son be given back, so that George felt the need to keep him quiet? Though I guess that wouldn't have a big emotional impact and tear the family apart or ruin the (still non-existent, unless we get 30 seconds of it this week) bromance with Hook, the way they've been talking about it, since David already hates George. I guess if he went on a vengeance tear with him that might cause family conflict.

I suppose George could have hired Hook as his assassin. There may be some gizmo or device or bit of info Hook needed to be able to take down Rumple that George had (or said he had), and so while on one of his cake runs for Pan, Hook got hired as an assassin to kill some random peasant, and he didn't ask questions because his revenge was his priority then (this is sounding strangely familiar ...), and only now does he realize it was David's father. Selling a kid might have been enough to set Hook off so he'd kill someone in a flash of fury, but that wouldn't have been covered up. An assassination ordered by the king would have been covered up, especially since any suspicion around that death might have led back to the truth about James. Though, unless the town where Daddy Shepherd went for supplies was a port town, I'm not sure how/why Hook would have been the one hired by George, unless maybe it was Rumple who pointed George in his direction with the fake lure of a surefire way to kill Rumple, but then if Rumple had known Hook was in the same world, would he have been getting him hired as an assassin instead of just killing him?

So, the only thing I didn't predict was that there was actually no connection between George and Hook. Hook was carrying out a normal theft, not carrying out an assassination for George.

On another note, what happened to Emma wanting to cut out Hook's desserts? Now she wants to give him popcorn and Milk Duds.

Oh, and they did sort of retcon and fix the thing about James knowing about David. So there is a reason David never knew about James, but James learned about David and that he was given away/sold.

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27 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I feel like the show going on right off screen is a really good show. Much better than what we see every week.

Why do you think there are so many Once fanfic writers? :)

11 minutes ago, Curio said:

Not really. And yes, it was dark, even for him. The only people we had seen Hook kill on screen before this was Claude and Merlin. And Claude was a random redshirt guard and Merlin was technically Nimue's doing. (Fun fact: when Emma killed Cruella on screen in Season 4, at that time, she had the same onscreen kill count as Hook.) 

 

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Yeah... this. I also thought Hook would have a soft spot for Daddy Charming, because he wouldn't want to leave children orphaned like he was. Even Rumple had that much going for himself. But, you know, #HookIsWorse

Actually, we saw Hook kill his father on screen and leave Liam 2.0 orphaned. I know some of us have tried to forget that already. Again, TS, TW.

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1 hour ago, mjgchick said:

Yeah the way he looked at Hook in the first scene and then he goes and gives Hook the pages and not David? That bitch is shady.

Perhaps there are other pages. Who is to say those are real?

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7 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

On another note, what happened to Emma wanting to cut out Hook's desserts? Now she wants to give him popcorn and Milk Duds.

 

The Wish Realm has already been forgotten and is totally useless. Emma is off canoeing with Henry, Snow is having coffee dates with Regina (but doesn't bother seeing Emma), Regina already doesn't like Robin (which, bringing him back was the entire freaking point of the Wish Realm and was the reason why she made Emma miss the portal home), and Emma is fattening Hook up. TS;TW.

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20 minutes ago, sharky said:

Actually, we saw Hook kill his father on screen and leave Liam 2.0 orphaned. I know some of us have tried to forget that already. Again, TS, TW.

 

Oh wow, I completely blocked that from my memory apparently.

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Quote

Actually, we saw Hook kill his father on screen and leave Liam 2.0 orphaned. I know some of us have tried to forget that already. Again, TS, TW.

Well, Hook was full of rage because it was the father who abandoned him.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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I count Papa Hook as a "revenge" killing because Regina was "testing his mettle" or whatever even though Hook almost went against her and saved him. Still don't like it but it's not as bad as this. At least papa Hook had done something awful to Killian, and more importantly (to Killian), to Liam. 

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7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Well, Hook was full of rage because it was the father who abandoned him.

Yeah, it was more understandable.  This was just flat-out WTF nonsense.

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2 minutes ago, Mathius said:

Yeah, it was more understandable.  This was just flat-out WTF nonsense.

If I did not know better, I would almost say it was to create unnecessary drama in a way that is not necessarily consistent with the characters and their histories.

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Just now, CCTC said:

If I did not know better, I would almost say it was to create unnecessary drama in a way that is not necessarily consistent with the characters and their histories.

 

Also known as this show's mission statement.

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52 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Had we ever seen Hook kill random innocents before? I thought him killing Daddy Charming was dark, even for him.

This is part of what is really bugging me. Previously most of his evil deeds were related to him getting his vengeance against Rumple (even killing his father fit into this mold). Now he's just killing innocent men in cold blood? I can't even explain how much I hate everything about it. And no, positivity police, Emma & Charming forgiving him is not going to make this okay in my opinion. I think it taints his entire relationship with Emma and David forever.

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4 minutes ago, Mathius said:

This was just flat-out WTF nonsense.

So, we have pirates on a cake run for Pan, who happen to wander inland, come across George's assassins, kill them to steal their payoff, then kill the witness, lest he be able to tell anyone what they did -- before they head back to Neverland for another decade or two. Yeah, that makes total sense!

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"According to the spell, it should show us where the coin was the day your father died." Okay, so why did the coin roll to Pleasure Island instead of the location of the cart where Hook killed him? 

Also, August was typing about Pleasure Island last episode when Emma went to visit him in his garage. Has he known about Hook's dark past for a while? Is he going to spill this information to Emma with the hopes of having her dump Hook and start dating him instead?

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That was disappointing. I was hoping that David's  father was actually still alive and that Hook had set him free and he ran away to protect his family. 

Line of the night was when Robin was complaining about the alarm clock beeping at him. 

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And I can't believe I'm saying this, but wouldn't he have taken the lucky coin, since they established last year that he took tokens of his kills? 

So what, he was so far gone that this wasn't even worth remembering? Gross. He's almost Regina now. At least he remembered when he was confronted with the victim's face. 

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I have nothing to add to that ridiculous plot twist.

But I'm sorry, can we talk about Regina STILL having hearts in her vault?!?  Why hasnt she returned them (off screen)? I get her raping Graham not being revealed to Emma, but what possible plot reason would she still have those hearts?

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Just now, Stacey1014 said:

I was hoping that David's father was actually still alive and that Hook had set him free and he ran away to protect his family. 

 

You mean run away to a place like the Land of Untold Stories? Or are we completely done with that plot already...

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1 minute ago, Curio said:

"According to the spell, it should show us where the coin was the day your father died." Okay, so why did the coin roll to Pleasure Island instead of the location of the cart where Hook killed him? 

Well, they already knew generally where he was when he was died regardless. I think this was Detective Dave trying to solve a murder mystery by retracing his father's footsteps.

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8 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

This is part of what is really bugging me. Previously most of his evil deeds were related to him getting his vengeance against Rumple (even killing his father fit into this mold). Now he's just killing innocent men in cold blood? I can't even explain how much I hate everything about it. And no, positivity police, Emma & Charming forgiving him is not going to make this okay in my opinion. I think it taints his entire relationship with Emma and David forever.

It taints Captain Swan for me, and I don't think the writers fully realized what they did. Rumple killed Belle's fiance, Regina killed Robin's wife, and now Hook has killed Emma's grandfather. 

Quote

You mean run away to a place like the Land of Untold Stories? Or are we completely done with that plot already...

I thought maybe Hook was going to ask him to join his crew.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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2 minutes ago, Curio said:

You mean run away to a place like the Land of Untold Stories? Or are we completely done with that plot already...

Sigh. That was my spec. It would have been so awesome! Emma could have finally met a grandparent and it would have explained why Papa Charming wasn't in Underbrooke last year. 

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1 minute ago, Tiger said:

But I'm sorry, can we talk about Regina STILL having hearts in her vault?!?  Why hasnt she returned them (off screen)? I get her raping Graham not being revealed to Emma, but what possible plot reason would she still have those hearts?

 

Yeah, this bothered me too. It's something we've complained about a lot here so it's nice that they finally acknowledged it, but then they do nothing about it. And our "heroes" see these hearts every time they go down into the vault, yet not a single one of them has suggested that Regina should return the hearts? They're just as complicit.

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

It taints Captain Swan for me, and I don't think the writers fully realized what they did. Rumple killed Belle's fiance, Regina killed Robin's wife, and now Hook has killed Emma's grandfather. 

 

Well, the one big difference is that Emma never even met the guy, so it's hard to get super emotional about a person you don't even know. (Which is why it would also seem odd for Emma to get upset about Regina killing her other grandfather; Snow should be the one pissed about that.) David absolutely has a right to be pissed, but for Emma, it shouldn't really impact her that much. I'm not saying Emma shouldn't be upset, but it would be weird if she had a more visceral reaction to it than David. Many people don't even get the chance to meet their grandparents due to natural aging.

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42 minutes ago, Souris said:

Hook, since he was there.

There still isn't a lot of context.

But it is a way to keep him and Emma apart and not have a happily ever after, just yet. He'd grown - until the pesky little detail that he killed his soon-to-be perhaps father in law's parent. In cold blood.

Too bad this show doesn't have an expected lifespan - a limited run of X episodes. Then we don't get many versions of characters - like a recycled dark Robin Hood.

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14 minutes ago, Tiger said:

But I'm sorry, can we talk about Regina STILL having hearts in her vault?!?  Why hasnt she returned them (off screen)? I get her raping Graham not being revealed to Emma, but what possible plot reason would she still have those hearts?

And she referred to them as the hearts of her "enemies".  She's still having trouble saying the word "victims".

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This is the first episode this season that actually lives up to the showrunners' promise of feeling season 1-ish. It was a self-contained mystery in which Prince Charming and Captain Hook try to find a missing person and discover he ended up on Pleasure Island with Pinocchio -- that's the kind of wackadoodle fairy-tale stupidness I signed on for. 

I'm not saying it was as good as season 1 -- it was Emma-light (on the plus-side, also Henry-light); Hook is still so boring and morose; and I couldn't care about that creepy Robin/Regina storyline -- but it did remind me of it. 

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I'm ignoring that ending for now...

What I want to talk about is just how old is freaking August?! As old as Charming? Older? Is this why he always tries to sound wise beyond his years? Do I get to hold him MORE accountable for the whole Emma situation (all the times) now that we can add 20 years to his Age? Does he consider himself that old? I'm a little bit miffed at the whole situation as he was really the only character that was supposed to be a contemporary of Emma and now it's hard to think of him that way.

And I generally dislike August, but this is how hard I'm pretending the episode ended 5 minutes early.

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4 minutes ago, Mathius said:

And she referred to them as the hearts of her "enemies".  She's still having trouble saying the word "victims".

Well, its a hard word to use to when you still don't think you did anything wrong.

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8 minutes ago, retrograde said:

This is the first episode this season that actually lives up to the showrunners' promise of feeling season 1-ish. It was a self-contained mystery in which Prince Charming and Captain Hook try to find a missing person and discover he ended up on Pleasure Island with Pinocchio -- that's the kind of wackadoodle fairy-tale stupidness I signed on for. 

Second.  Remember "The Other Shoe"? (written by Jane Espenson and Jerome Schwartz too.)

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I also didn't really like the part where Hook asked Charming for his blessing. Since when is Hook old-fashioned? Neither that aspect, nor the casual killing of Robert in the past made sense for Hook as a character. But the writers have clearly given up on consistency this season.

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8 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I also didn't really like the part where Hook asked Charming for his blessing. Since when is Hook old-fashioned? Neither that aspect, nor the casual killing of Robert in the past made sense for Hook as a character. But the writers have clearly given up on consistency this season.

Honestly, can we re-create Zelena's time-travel spell and erase this season? I don't care who we inadvertently bring back with us.

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3 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I also didn't really like the part where Hook asked Charming for his blessing. Since when is Hook old-fashioned? 

 

I consider myself a feminist and I'm all for women's rights and girl power and all that jazz, but I don't really see the problem in asking for David's blessing. Yes, it's traditional, but we have also seen Hook carrying over some older traditions. He still cooks mackerel which he probably picked up from his pirate days, he still uses doubloons, pulled Emma's chair out for her before she sat down on their first date, he respectfully backed off when Milah said she had a husband the first time they met, he knows how to do ballroom dance, apparently has fantastic calligraphic penmanship, uses vocabulary words like "malfeasance"...so I'd say he's old-fashioned still in some areas. I viewed it more as Killian making sure he would be accepted into Emma's family. It's one thing for Emma to say yes, but with how close Emma is to her family, Killian is kind of marrying her family as well. He's not just impacting Emma's life, he's impacting Henry's life, David's life, Snow's life... So knowing one or more of those people doesn't approve of you is going to cause problems for the relationship in the future. He already had his Henry adventure in 6A to see if he approved, now it's David's turn. (And I doubt we'll ever get Snow's opinion because Hook and Snow will never get a one-on-one scene before this show is cancelled.) Of course, it's Emma's ultimate say, but going into the proposal knowing that the people who are most important in Emma's life think you're a good fit is reassuring.

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I found the casual killing OOC (or at least of what we've seen of him on screen, though one has to assume there was a fair bit of indiscriminate killing in his pirating days) but asking for Charming's blessing didn't seem so weird to me. He was an uptight, by-the-book naval officer once. 

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At this point I would've been more surprised if Hook hadn't killed Charming's dad. As has been pointed out, we were speculating about that for months. A & E are such total hacks. At least Reggie didn't actually bust out crying this ep. Of course Robin with a backbone turns out to be evil. No surprise there either.

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After living-in with two women, I'm finding it hard to buy that Hook is old-fashioned about relationships. 

Just now, Dianthus said:

Of course Robin with a backbone turns out to be evil. 

Duh.

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3 minutes ago, retrograde said:

I found the casual killing OOC (or at least of what we've seen of him on screen, though one has to assume there was a fair bit of indiscriminate killing in his pirating days) but asking for Charming's blessing didn't seem so weird to me. He was an uptight, by-the-book naval officer once.

The asking for his blessing didn't bother me either, especially because he wasn't asking charming for Emma's hand, he was asking for an okay that the charming's would be supportive should he and Emma get married, which is sort of an important thing... especially in a town that is so intertwined and family is so important.

I did also like that they had Charming put in the line that it is of course Emma's decision... because it is.... They can offer all of the blessings in the world but Emma is the one who makes the choice to accept the proposal or not.

 

I agree with everyone else that the killing charming's dad is a stupid way to twist the plot again.

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I know we all guessed that Hook would be the one who killed David's father, but what was the point of doing that AFTER the events of this episode.  What pisses me off the most about the ending is there is nothing interesting to explore with that scenario.  We already had David acknowledging his acceptance and admiration for Hook at the end of this episode.  Is he supposed do it again after finding out Hook killed his father?  And how the hell can Emma get over this?  She knows Hook has killed in the past, but this brings it to a whole new personal level, especially if he keeps this from her.  The twist was completely unnecessary and solely for shock... it really annoys me since now I'm dreading the whole pending confrontation.

Having said that, I did enjoy most of this episode.  It made a world of difference not to have Gold and Belle.  Though it makes zero sense that Emma would be canoeing with Henry, when Gideon is still hanging about.  Why is everyone acting like Gideon is no longer a problem?  Why isn't anyone looking for him?  

This episode was better written in several ways.  Firstly, there was a mix of the dark and the light... the scene of David and Hook doing the spell was amusing.  Secondly, there were some nice, intimate conversations about deeper emotions.  Thirdly, they actually explored the world in the flashbacks and organically used fairy tales, with Pleasure Island and Wooden Pinocchio's cameo.  

But on the flip side, they don't know how to write a flawed hero without making them look stupid or hard-headed as hell.  They completely overplayed David's contempt for Hook throughout the entire episode to increase the "reward" of their reconciliation.  As usual, they made David look like a completely rash idiot, dishonest as hell in hiding it all from Emma/Snow and completely lacking in self-control in almost murdering George.  I know he was angry, and they could chalk all this up to sleep deprivation or whatever, but were they saying that David's core personality would have killed George?  He didn't have that inner goodness to stop him without Hook running in?  If they needed to make David act the way they did in this episode, they needed to sell it better.  It was extremely clunky how the scriptwriter just threw in that bit about being afraid of Gideon coming back for Emma and never waking up Snow as what motivated his behaviour in this episode.  

Josh Dallas can really act when given the chance, and I really enjoyed his performance in this episode.  Though sometimes, the direction was strange.  When David was saying something really emotional, the camera was on Hook instead.  I think Dallas did a good job, and this show could use him more if they knew how to write a complicated hero, which they don't.

Meanwhile, the Writers' Regina bias showed through yet again with Snow getting TWO scenes with Regina.  I can't believe they had Snow being so distrustful of Wish Robin.  So she woke up on the wrong side of the bed again and isn't the voice of hope?  Of course, the Writer had to have her say to Regina, "You deserve this."  I can't believe they seemed to acknowledge the hypocrisy of Regina by mentioning the cabinet of hearts, and yet STILL have Regina keep them.  Does that mean they're not that self-aware or what?  Did they expect us to be satisfied with Regina saying "I know I sound like a hypocrite?"

Regina's Vault has the worst security ever.  They don't even bother to explain how Robin got in, eh?  You know the twist I was expecting at the end?  For Robin to look into the mirror, and we'd see he was actually Wish Rumple.  But nope, they had to do that horrible, anger-inducing twist.

Edited by Camera One
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Such a great episode. I loved all the Captain Charming and Captain Swan scenes and Wish Robin is shaping up to be more interesting than Real Robin. However, all good things must eventually come to an end. I loved this episode, but during the reveal I was shaking my head and saying no no no no no no no. However, I think the amazing quality of the rest of the episode sort of cancels out my disappointment about the reveal. Maybe.

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