S01.E03: Living The Dream

[tennisgurl]

Oh yeah, Avenue Q is a great show! I worked the lights in my college theater departments production of it, and I never got sick of it. However, if the theater has only done child friendly shows before, I can kind of see why they would be upset about this. As Nara said, there's lots of very sexual content, including some pretty graphic Puppet Sex, songs about racism and sex, and lots of very crude humor that would be pretty awkward to watch with young kids. I'm not a fan of censorship and pearl clutching, but I can see why some parents wouldn't be thrilled by this play, especially if their community theater is a big family event.

Edited March 6, 2017 by tennisgurl

[nara]

1 hour ago, Kbilly said:

You would think Renata would try to keep it down a little in that office...my goodness!

Interestingly,  one of the songs in Avenue Q is "You can be as loud as the hell you want when you're making love"

[mochamajesty]

Perry is about control.  He expects Celeste to ask for his permission to take the kids on a   trip when he is thousands of miles away.  I could see that conversation now. "Can't you make a simple decision without consulting me?".

Let me ask you something. When has Perry spent time with the kids?  And why couldn't he spend time with them when they got back?  They were, per Madeline, going to be back by 3. Perry is acting like they were going on that Disney weekend Renata was going on about.

 

If it wasn't the trip, it would be something else.

Edited March 7, 2017 by mochamajesty

[mochamajesty]

1 hour ago, CleoCaesar said:

. Perry has zero remorse, and I can't believe that some think he genuinely believes the shit he was spouting.

I agree and am alarmed at the number of people giving Perry the benefit of the doubt. 

[tennisgurl]

Also, Nathan really came across as a huge loser in this episode. I mean, the guy complains to his teenage daughter about how he thinks Ed is going to beat him up, after going to Ed to complain about his ex wife, and THEN goes to the aforementioned ex wife to complain about how scared he is of Ed? Does he think he's in the third grade?  Dude, you were the one who confronted Ed! And in that confrontation, you implied that you were some traditional "alpha" guy and Ed was a more modern "sensitive" guy, but now your all afraid he's gonna kick you ass? What a wimp.

Edited March 6, 2017 by tennisgurl

[WhosThatGirl]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, Nathan really came across as a huge loser in this episode. I mean, the guy complains to his teenage daughter about how he thinks Ed is going to beat him up, after going to Ed to complain about his ex wife, and THEN goes to the aforementioned ex wife to complain about how scared he is if Ed? Dies he think he's in the third grade?  Dude, you were the one who confronted Ed! And in that confrontation, you implied that you were some traditional "alpha" guy and Ed was a more modern "sensitive" guy, but now your all afraid he's gonna kick you ass? What a wimp.

I totally agree. He is a child. If I were Maddy, I'd be perfectly happy to be rid of that loser and no longer carry any sort of feelings. I get that she's a jerk for now participating in all the school events he chose not to in years past but he isn't worth even feeling angry towards. 

I think though that he goes to things now because Bonnie probably doesn't make him/nag him like Madealine used to. Not that I'm saying she didbut men often claim that's how women approach things. Bonnie probably phrases it like a "well if you choose to come" thing. 

[mojoween]

47 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

Perry is about control.  He expects Celeste to ask for his permission to take the kids on a   trip when he is thousands of miles away.  And posters here expect her to do it. I could see that conversation now. "Can't you make a simple decision without consulting me?".

Let me ask you something. When has Perry spent time with the kids?  And why couldn't he spend time with them when they got back?  They were, per Madeline, going to be back by 3. Perry is acting like they were going on that Disney weekend Renata was going on about.

 

If it wasn't the trip, it would be something else.

Celeste knew he would be back during Disney on Ice and he wanted to know why she didn't ask him if he wanted to go.  

Not saying it's right or wrong, just how I saw it.

Is there any reason why the theater can't put on "Avenue Q" and the parents just not take the kids to see a play this one time?

Edited March 6, 2017 by mojoween

[scrb]

Seems like those mothers, if they're around the same age of the actresses playing them, would be too young to be into Fleetwood Mac.  Except maybe for Celeste.

If Renata is such a big career woman, would she be so preoccupied with school/moms politics?

It's disappointing that Celeste was bribed so easily by a piece of jewelry after their fight.  She says she's hopeful about their marriage after their one counseling session but the previews make it appear there's trouble in paradise again.  She has to know Perry's volatile anger won't be cured by one session of talking it out.  She didn't admit to violence or fights getting physical.  It was Perry who admitted it.  Despite her threat to leave him, it seems she's not ready to follow through.

As vindictive as she can be against Renata, it looked like she had a genuine moment of empathy for Jane.  But the previews show she's going to hunt down the date rapist?  Talk about overbearing and nosy.

[formerlyfreedom]

Please remember to respect the differing opinions of other posters; it is fine to disagree, as long as you remain respectful. If you feel the site's 'Be Civil' rule is being broken, report the post, and then ignore it.

Failure to follow the rules may result in warnings/suspensions.

[Mabinogia]

5 minutes ago, mojoween said:

Celeste knew he would be back during Disney on Ice and he wanted to know why she didn't ask him if he wanted to go.  

It didn't look like any of the other fathers/husbands were going so Celeste probably didn't think Perry would want to be the only man there. It seemed like it was a mommy and me kind of outing, not a family outing so Perry wasn't really invited by the person hosting the event.

I really like Renata a lot more after this episode. Her feeling of isolation was palpable. It was tough watching her swallow her pride and call Madeline in an attempt to make Amabella's party perfect, and yet Madeline didn't budge, even after her own daughter told her she would rather go to the party. I thought that was interesting.

That charity event sounds stupid. Everyone is dressing like Audrey Hepburn or Elvis? Did I understand that right? Oh, and while I'm on that, one thing that seemed odd to me. When Renata who had rushed in late, turned and waved at Ed, he waved back, then Madeline asked if he knew her. He asked "do I?" What was that about? Is Ed actually not supposed to know Renata? Or was Madeline making some kind of dig at him for I don't know what reason? I didn't get that scene at all. Is it supposed to be setting up some kind of Madeline is jealous or what she thinks could be going on between Renata and her husband?

Other than that weirdness, great ep.

I feel bad for Jane in that she was raped and how do you explain that to your child when he's that young, but I feel so bad for Ziggy not having any idea at all about his father. That's got to be hard on a kid. I knew who my father was, but rarely saw him, and it was hard on me, especially as I was the poor kid in a more affluent school (not nearly like this one, middle class at best, but I wasn't even middle class at the time) so I really feel for him. I wish I was more into Jane's character because it is an interesting story, trying to make a better life for your kid, but by putting your kid in a better school you are making them the outcast really. I would not be surprised at all if Ziggy didn't attack Amabella but she selected him because he's the new kid, with no friends and a not powerful mom who can fuck things up for everyone. I'm sure she didn't count on Madeline taking over that role. lol

[Auntie Anxiety]

Quote

But you can manipulate someone and also express some truth about how you feel.

I think you can. Perry might believe that Celeste will leave him but then he manipulates her into taking responsibility for his feelings. "If you loved me, you would be able to read my mind and it's your job to know what I want. If you go against what I am thinking (even though I haven't told you what I am thinking), that means that you don't love me and you are going to find someone else." It's a Catch 22. It didn't sound like Celeste left her career because she wanted to,  but because Perry wanted her to (probably he didn't like her giving the attention to anything but him.

Quote

Celeste knew he would be back during Disney on Ice and he wanted to know why she didn't ask him if he wanted to go.  

I can't recall, but did ANY of the fathers attend?

Quote

If Renata is such a big career woman, would she be so preoccupied with school/moms politics?

I think Renata sees her daughter as an accessory. She's into school/mom politics because she needs to elbow everyone else out of the way so Amabella succeeds, which will make Renata look good. The whole "gifted, sensitive, mature, etc." speech that Renata gave in her husband's office has little to do with Amabella and a lot to do with how Renata sees herself.

[mochamajesty]

I do not remember seeing any of the other fathers on the trip.

[chocolatine]

51 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I really like Renata a lot more after this episode. Her feeling of isolation was palpable. It was tough watching her swallow her pride and call Madeline in an attempt to make Amabella's party perfect, and yet Madeline didn't budge, even after her own daughter told her she would rather go to the party. I thought that was interesting.

I agree. If Madeline's only problem was the exclusion of Ziggy, when Renata offered to rectify that, Madeline should have accepted and let all the kids have a good time. But she made into a personal vendetta against Renata, so it's not really about Ziggy anymore.

51 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

When Renata who had rushed in late, turned and waved at Ed, he waved back, then Madeline asked if he knew her. He asked "do I?" What was that about? Is Ed actually not supposed to know Renata? Or was Madeline making some kind of dig at him for I don't know what reason? I didn't get that scene at all. Is it supposed to be setting up some kind of Madeline is jealous or what she thinks could be going on between Renata and her husband?

I thought he was just trying to be nice to the other school parents without letting on that he doesn't know/remember them. I've done that myself before, waved back or said hello back to someone I didn't remember meeting. Much less awkward than "do I know you?"

Edited March 7, 2017 by chocolatine

[mochamajesty]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I was curious if any of the media recappers saw it that way (zero remorse), since I didn't and the first two recaps I read didn't.  The only one I found that fell more on that side with that scene was Bustle.  

https://www.bustle.com/p/the-big-little-lies-domestic-violence-scenes-show-how-leaving-your-abuser-isnt-that-simple-42060

 

 

I read several recaps and there is a debate about this in all of the comments sections.  People are split over this.

Edited March 7, 2017 by mochamajesty

[Morbs]

I wear a Fleetwood Mac t-shirt I made to the gym that says "But Never Have I Been, A Blue Calm Sea, I Have Always Been A Storm" and all ages seem to get the reference and it's not even one of their more famous songs!  Stevie Forever!  Ok, maybe not first graders.  The ones I know are too busy pretending to be dogs.

Quote

I can't get over how much Zoe Kravitz looks like her mom. Growing up Lisa Bonet represented all that was sexy and cool--I find Bonnie sexy as hell but also, these people do blow everything up out of proportion so a simple dance is turned into some kind of strip tease.

And what is crazy is Lisa Bonet still could have been cast in the role of Bonnie and it would have been believable all the guys are into her.  What a family!

[riverheightsnancy]

This is an out there thought, (I have not read the book), I am wondering if the rape isn't a red herring and the real reason that someone is killed is due to something we don't know yet. I think Jane will be initially accused because maybe it is her gun, but it won't be her. 

[mojoween]

Now that I think of it, have we been told what exactly the issue is with "Avenue Q?"

If it's at a community theater, it can't be all about the children because there have to be families without kids in that town, yes?

And I can't imagine anyone thinking "Avenue Q" is a good idea for an elementary school so she wouldn't be trying to put it on in there could she?

[Armchair Critic]

I laughed at Renata's husband pushing his sunglasses down his nose to leer at Bonnie dancing, what a creep. I assume he was one of the husbands who had an erection. ;)

I am a crafter and it was cool to see Ed using a BigShot diecut machine, maybe he was cutting out stuff for his daughter's family tree project.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

Seems like those mothers, if they're around the same age of the actresses playing them, would be too young to be into Fleetwood Mac.  Except maybe for Celeste.

"Dreams" by Fleetwood Mac is a classic.  I'm 34 and I love the song very much.  This will sound silly but shows like American Idol and Glee reintroduce my generation and younger to classic artists regularly.  With iTunes, Spotify, and downloading there really isn't "old music" anymore.  I listen to my parents' music and my mom asked me to download Rihanna for her.  That was one of my favourite things that ever happened.

Bonnie is a mother!  People are talking like she isn't.  Bonnie and Jane are mothers, they're just very young.  

Maddie is not over Nathan because he's flaunting being a Super Dad with Bonnie when with Madeleine/Abigail he wasn't a good father at all.  (The book makes this a lot more crystal clear).  I get why she's constantly hurt.  Out of sight would be out of mind.

To be clear, I love Reese as Madeleine here for the most part but sometimes her dialogue - like whenever she's in the kitchen with the whole family - sounds really hacky and unreal.  Hard for me to explain.  It's so like, "I'm putting on a show right now!" But then again, she does work in theatre.

I hate the Greek chorus.  All the stuff they're saying is such nonsense.  A real cop wouldn't be listening to this stupid gossip (Ok - I'm hoping).  I'm much more of a show, don't tell kind of viewer.  I hate narration too.

Laura Dern might look a little 'hard' these days but remember Jurassic Park in 1993?  I remember thinking she was so..... pretty and vulnerable and sweet-looking.  Bonnie's outfit for a child's birthday was kind of risque, or maybe it's that her body is so yoga-tight.  No wonder the men were ogling.

Madeleine is insecure with the full-time working mothers and Renata is insecure with the mothers who don't work full-time..... 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[chocolatine]

27 minutes ago, Morbs said:

I wear a Fleetwood Mac t-shirt I made to the gym that says "But Never Have I Been, A Blue Calm Sea, I Have Always Been A Storm" and all ages seem to get the reference and it's not even one of their more famous songs!  Stevie Forever!

One of my favorite Fleetwood Mac songs, though I usually tend to favor Christine's stuff. I'm younger than the moms on the show (except Jane and Bonnie), and I'm super into Fleetwood Mac and have been for a long time.

I can totally see a six-year-old listening to "adult" music that her parents listen to, but Chloe being the family DJ is a bit much. She must have access to iTunes or Spotify or some other service, and she must know quite a bit about genres and artists. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems very "mature" for a six-year-old.

[mochamajesty]

1 hour ago, mojoween said:

Celeste knew he would be back during Disney on Ice and he wanted to know why she didn't ask him if he wanted to go.  

Not saying it's right or wrong, just how I saw it.

Is there any reason why the theater can't put on "Avenue Q" and the parents just not take the kids to see a play this one time?

 

I just rewatched.

He kept asking Celeste "Why didn't you discuss this with me?".  Celeste even replied, "I have to make these decisions while you are thousands of miles away."  Yes, he claimed he wanted to go, but I think we know that's not true -  Celeste said he hated 'those things'. He wanted her to ask him - at least that's how I saw it.

[Ms Blue Jay]

"Bootylicious" by Destiny's Child also introduced a new generation to "Edge of Seventeen" by Stevie Nicks :)  Same with "School of Rock" one of my favourite movies.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[chocolatine]

6 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

He kept asking Celeste "Why didn't you discuss this with me?".  Celeste even replied, "I have to make these decisions while you are thousands of miles away."  Yes, he claimed he wanted to go, but I think we know that's not true -  Celeste said he hated 'those things'. He wanted her to ask him - at least that's how I saw it.

I think he was just looking to pick a fight with her. If she had signed him up for Frozen, he would have complained that she's dragging him to a group event when he'd much rather have had quiet family time after his long business trip.

Edited March 7, 2017 by chocolatine

[mochamajesty]

1 minute ago, chocolatine said:

I think he was just looking to pick a fight with her. If she had signed him up for Frozen, he would have complained that she's dragging him to a group event when he'd much rather have had quiet family time after his long business trip.

 

Good point.

[humbleopinion]

Wait when Perry finds out he paid for the Party bus to San Jose...

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I can believe Amabella is gifted, sensitive and mature and Renata knows it.  Intelligence can be both hereditary and common in the rich, due to the improved opportunities the kids have from birth onward. 

Aside from all the well-documented issues with standardized testing supposedly identifying "giftedness" systematically disadvantaging children from underprivileged backgrounds and the treatment of a child's "giftedness" as a status symbol, let me tell you a little story. 

I lived in a city where there seemed to be a disproportionately high number of "gifted" children given the size of the population, to the point where this was investigated by local journalists. One of the explanations proffered was that because there were so many civil servants living in the city, a high number of gifted children could be expected. Intelligence is hereditary, after all, right? Sounds reasonable enough...except that it turned out that when kids failed to meet the gifted standard under the usual standardized testing, parents were permitted to have their children "reevaluated" by private psychologists to determine their giftedness, at the parents' expense of course. Yeah. 

Amabella could be gifted, sure. What's more likely, however, is that she has a pushy, wealthy, status-obsessed mother who refuses to accept that her child is anything other than special and different, like many other pushy, wealthy, status-obsessed parents do. As for Amabella being "sensitive"...she's a kid who wanted her friend to come to her birthday party and is sad that she isn't. There is nothing special about that. That's just...being a kid and having normal feelings of disappointment. As everyone has, sometimes, regardless of how completely ordinary and unspecial they are.

I agree with the poster upthread that Renata seems to view Amabella as an extension of herself. Amabella would probably be a lot happier if Renata stopped obsessing about her exquisitely refined specialness and uniqueness and just let her be a normal kid. 

...Purely anecdotally, Amabella seems way too kind and sweet to be gifted. The gifted kids I knew growing up were all spectacular little shits who took particular delight in tormenting teachers who showed insufficient backbone in standing up to them, not surprisingly given that they knew they were smarter than most of the adults they met but still had to do as they said. They also gave their parents allll kinds of trouble, which is funny given how so many parents are obsessed with the idea of having a gifted child.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Eyes High

[Mabinogia]

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I agree with the poster upthread that Renata seems to view Amabella as an extension of herself. Amabella would probably be a lot happier if Renata stopped obsessing about her exquisitely refined specialness and uniqueness--therapy, really?--and just let her be a normal kid.

That's probably true of all these poor kids. I don't see anything special about Amabella, though we really haven't seen that much of her to judge. She just seems like a nice kid, which is enough as far as I'm concerned. But I think all these mothers put way too much of themselves onto their children.  

I find it interesting that Amabella and Chloe seem to actually be friends despite their mothers' blood feud. Their parents could learn a lot from them I think.

[Lemons]

4 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I thought it was me. I had the a/c on. But some of the convos were really soft, then it would get louder.  

You had an AC on?  Lucky. 

[Giesela]

3 hours ago, nara said:

Avenue Q is AWESOME! However, it has graphic sexual situations ("full puppet nudity" is how it was described on the sign), references to porn (one song is called "the internet is for porn"), masturbation, one night stands, etc.

I don't see why a community theater can't but on a for adults play just because they have done childrens plays.  And clearly this is a sophisticated relatively young with it town. Its Monterey California for fucks sake.   This isn't the bible belt, or even Iowa:)  Some F words and even nudity shouldn't faze them.  I would think that this would be right up their alley other than the poking fun at child rearing.  

The way its been portrayed is this is a battle between Madeline and Renata who is using other conservative rich community active types as proxies to ruin something of Madelines by putting pressure on the Mayor.  At least that  is the way Madeline sees it.  . 

Something about Nathan running telling everyone Ed wants to fight him makes me think that Nathan is going to sucker punch Ed first chance he gets and claim self-defense.  So this is sort of seeding the event.  

Put myself in que for the book at the library.  2 holds ahead of me. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Giesela

[mojoween]

21 minutes ago, Giesela said:

Put myself in que for the book at the library.  2 holds ahead of me.

I have a stack of books on my bookcase in the "to read" pile but I am warring with myself to not re-read this one.

Since I don't remember so many of the details (including who is dead and who did it FFS) I want to watch the series organically.

Also it helps with the "ugh the book did that better and/or different" internal narrative which I could not turn off for "Bitten."

[Mabinogia]

11 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I can see her being hurt to some extent but she has a minor child with him so I don't think she should prefer him to move away.  Abby having a present dad today should take precedence over Maddy's hurt feelings over him growing up.

As someone who had a dad one town over whom I never saw, I agree, Maddie's first priority should be what is best for Abby, and Abby should have her dad in her life. Yes, it is going to suck running into him all the time, but how much more would it suck for Abby to never get to see her father? Trust me, even if he is a lazy shit, it would hurt, a lot. Like it or not, kids need their parents. No matter how great her step-dad might be, and IDK, that look he was giving her when she was taking pictures makes me think he's not exactly "dad" to her, it is pretty awesome that she gets to have her father around. And even if he was shitty when she was little, at least he's trying now. I don't like Nathan, but I think it is great that Abby gets to have him in her life. (That could totally be my own bitterness at not having my father in my life speaking though.)

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, scrb said:

Seems like those mothers, if they're around the same age of the actresses playing them, would be too young to be into Fleetwood Mac.  Except maybe for Celeste.

Adding to the chorus of people younger than the mothers who love Fleetwood Mac. :)

Interesting to read people's ideas about Perry, and I have to say: I think it can all be true. He's an abusive manipulator, and also has deep seated insecurities. He wants to control Celeste, and also feels that he loves her desperately. He is probably irredeemable, but also genuinely wants to try to be a better husband. The show seems to want us to view him and his relationship with Celeste with all it's complexities and contradictions, and it tracks for me. It also makes me think he's going to be a big part of whatever ends up going down, otherwise why bother to dimensionalize him this much?

[Ms Blue Jay]

Another Fleetwood Mac connection to the show/book ;)

[stillshimpy]

Just now, Blakeston said:

Over and over again, Perry's anger has been set off by what he sees as attempts to cut him out of the family. I don't doubt for a second that he's afraid of losing his significant other - most possessive, violent creeps are afraid of exactly that. That's why they go to such great lengths to scare their partner into staying.

Do I think he was being 100% pure of heart at the therapy session? No, I'm sure there was some manipulation there. But you can manipulate someone and also express some truth about how you feel.

 

I tend to agree.  I think that the reason this story has been praised for the way it approaches the complexity of domestic violence is that it isn't as simple as "monsters do and say this, follow that pattern, push this button....and they do it all knowingly!"  I think Perry is actually afraid that Celeste will leave him because she has so many options in life.  She mentions leaving her family and friends to move there to be with him (giant red flag), Madeline says Celeste used to be a high-powered lawyer. 

So I think it's a multilayered thing:  Perry is absolutely making that therapy about his fears and he definitely wants reassurance that Celeste won't leave him.  But he is the one that brought it up.  Even though he's sick and an abuser, that doesn't preclude his wanting to be better.  Everyone probably does leave that guy, he fucking chokes and hits people he loves.  He probably has a long line of women who beat it the fuck away from him.  Celeste is co-combative.  She said it herself, she fights back.   There's a part of her that associates that violence with passion with evidence that he really loves her.  

It's a really well told tale because they are both very unhealthy people, it's just that his form of being wildly unhealthy will land her in the hospital if she's lucky and in the morgue if she isn't.   In all of this though, that doesn't eliminate the possibility that Perry would like to be a better man but they feed off each other with this stuff.   Also, my god, Nicole Kidman looks great.  She really just looks so delicately beautiful in this.  I've never really thought that she was beautiful before, certainly, very pretty but I would have stopped short of calling her beautiful.  Here she really is, at least in my eyes.  

Also, more evidence that Renata views most of her interactions, whether she chooses to or not, as business dealings that must be aggressively negotiated.   Laura Dern is fantastic in all of this and clearly, she is projecting her own insecurities onto Amabella.  However, it's not as if Madeline is wrong about her either...it's the trappings of success Renata seems to crave.  She wanted everyone to WANT to come to that party and was willing to invited Ziggy to save face.   Poor Amabelle.  I do have to give it up for Dern though, she interacted so easily and well with the little girl playing Amabella that for a second, I completely lost track of the fact that she wasn't interacting with her own child.  That's a serious acting achievement, when the emotions seem so grounded and real, a viewer can just forget "Oh wait, those are actors, she's not really that little girl's mom..." because Dern just looked at her with that mix of adulation and fear that you're somehow failing your kid.

I love that -- again, Perry notwithstanding -- I get to like and dislike characters throughout this.  That no one is so completely defined by their presumed role in this that I am set against them.  When Renata was charging around, talking about how the stock would vest after three years, that she only wanted the committed people to benefit.   That's really gutsy stuff.   Then when she stopped at the top of the stairs to admire everything.  It was such a human thing and I weirdly like her relationship with her husband.  

I like Madeline too, though.  I like that once she decides she cares about someone, that's it.  She's riding to the family tree rescue for Jane and being an awesome friend to this person who is clearly complicated.   I liked that she heard Abigail and was an awesome mom about it, rather than be a guilt-wielding Mommazon.   She's a force of nature and the character she seems to have the most in common with is actually Renata in terms of personality types.  When Abigail said that Madeline was trying to live out all the things she never got to do through Abigail, I wondered if that's why Renata bothers her.  Madeline could have possibly have been a Renata if life had served up slightly different options.  

Man, I'm starting to worry that Ziggy is going to shoot someone while sleepwalking.  That's a terrible place to keep a gun on so many levels.  

We're sure just one person dies, right?  Because between that gun, Nathan wandering around being a complete twerp -- yes, Ed was looking at him with thinly veiled hostility, it's because he doesn't trust you, Nathan, and rightly so -- but by the same token, Ed was the person who observed that Madeline was drawn to damaged (was it damaged?) people.  That would presumably entail him, also? 

I swear I thought Nathan was going to tell Madeline some version of "this isn't a good time for us, I'm sure you understand, you'll explain it to Abigail, won't you?"  and instead, he wanted Abigail to come and live with them.   So even freaking Nathan seems to have humanizing qualities. 

I still have pretty much no idea who dies but I got really nervous when at least one of the Greek chorus referred to Madeline in the past tense.  But then I also think that no one would risk being all, "Yeah, she sucked..." about a recent murder victim unless they were awfully sure that they had an alibi with a note from God attached to it.  

But waiting to find out why Jane really moved to that area is killing me.   She moved to a place that would constantly remind her of her terrible morning-after-being-raped daily and there has to be a reason why.  There has to be a reason why she has yet to bring up leaving town, I'm assuming?  

[Ms Blue Jay]

If you're a fan of Laura Dern's you should watch "Enlightened" if you haven't already.  It was a very unique show, very smart I thought.

I forgot to mention Ziggy screaming "Tell me his name, for Chr*st's sake!"  That really made me laugh. (I don't mean to offend anyone's religious beliefs).

I also kind of wonder why Nathan and Madeleine have to live in the same city, but I guess, it's actually good for Abigail.  And I feel that even though Nathan is a "twerp" (LOL!!!! @stillshimpy) I'm finding the actor pretty hot.

Guess Adam Scott is good at playing a love interest to strong, blonde women as he did with Leslie Knope!

Laura Dern, not pretty?  Why I oughta...... ; )

Edited March 7, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[sasha206]

23 hours ago, Muffyn said:

The show is definitely drawing me in.  Guessing that Ziggy was the result of rape didn't lessen how horrible that scene felt.  That was almost more brutal by keeping it somewhat minimal.  And Madeline's reaction when Jane told her was excellent, so controlled, that made her subsequent breakdown feel that much more real. 

Celeste saying there hadn't been violence and then her husband owning (a teeny, tiny portion of) it was interesting.  She has admitted she likes when it leads to rough sex and she conflates that with passion.  His OMG-she-could-leave-me-because-every-man-ever-would-want-her felt strange coming from a wealthy, highly-successful, very attractive man.  They are a very attractive couple.  I'm not sure she has one up on him.  If he wasn't an abuser, he could do quite well.  But, he's a controlling abuser, so, okay, he shouldn't get anyone ever.    

I've noticed a strange pattern in shows/movies with Laura Dern.  Someone always has to tell us she's pretty. 

YES to all!  I'm struggling to see why a very sexy, wealthy guy would be that insecure about Nicole Kidman's character.  And the Laura Dern is pretty thing especially.  I love Laura Dern. Pretty she isn't.   

8 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Quote

 

I forgot to mention Ziggy screaming "Tell me his name, for Chr*st's sake!"  That really made me laugh. (I don't mean to offend anyone's religious beliefs).

 

That kid is such a good little actor!  And he's probably going to grow up to be one handsome kid too.

[chocolatine]

12 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

When Renata was charging around, talking about how the stock would vest after three years, that she only wanted the committed people to benefit.   That's really gutsy stuff.

She was talking about an acquisition deal, and a three-year vest for the executives of the acquired company is pretty standard in Silicon Valley (even four years is not unheard of). It sounded like one of the companies for which she's a director was acquiring another company, so it's her fiduciary responsibility to make sure the executives of the acquired company have an incentive to stay after the deal is closed. Renata obviously knows her stuff, but that was just a run of the mill conversation for someone like her, nothing particularly "gutsy" about it.

[stillshimpy]

Just now, chocolatine said:

She was talking about an acquisition deal, and a three-year vest for the executives of the acquired company is pretty standard in Silicon Valley (even four years is not unheard of). It sounded like one of the companies for which she's a director was acquiring another company, so it's her fiduciary responsibility to make sure the executives of the acquired company have an incentive to stay after the deal is closed. Renata obviously knows her stuff, but that was just a run of the mill conversation for someone like her, nothing particularly "gutsy" about it.

 

 

No, it actually is gutsy stuff, even if it isn't unusual.  The fact that it happens a lot doesn't make it anything less than really gutsy call, in the tech industry where you want to attract talent.  That's gutsy.    We're in SoCal and on a re-lo part of the deal was a bonus of stock that would vest after one year, that was something negotiated.   Now, he's in a different industry but three years is standard there too.   If you offer options that can be bested by other companies looking to poach talent in the wake of a merger?  

Sorry, sticking by gutsy.  That is not work for the meek. 

Edited to add:  And smart, by the way.  What she's doing will yield the result she was seeking.  She will only keep the people who are true believers and really invested in that company's purpose because the other executives who are worth a damn? Will get poached and offered, among other things, better vesting options.  

She's in the tech industry, isn't she?  Man, that is seriously brave.  

Edited March 7, 2017 by stillshimpy

[racked]

20 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

YES to all!  I'm struggling to see why a very sexy, wealthy guy would be that insecure about Nicole Kidman's character.  And the Laura Dern is pretty thing especially.  I love Laura Dern. Pretty she isn't.   

Insecurity is a universal trait - it makes complete sense to me that a manipulative abuser like Perry would have insecurity.  Attractive wealthy guys aren't immune. 

I think Laura Dern is gorgeous and has aged like a fine wine.

[chocolatine]

11 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

No, it actually is gutsy stuff, even if it isn't unusual.  The fact that it happens a lot doesn't make it anything less than really gutsy call, in the tech industry where you want to attract talent.  That's gutsy.    We're in SoCal and on a re-lo part of the deal was a bonus of stock that would vest after one year, that was something negotiated.   Now, he's in a different industry but three years is standard there too.   If you offer options that can be bested by other companies looking to poach talent in the wake of a merger?  

Sorry, sticking by gutsy.  That is not work for the meek. 

Acquisition deals are very different from job offers; the stakes are much higher and the executives wouldn't get nearly as much money anywhere else. It's called "golden handcuffs" for a reason. And like I said, fiduciary duty. Renata would be opening herself up to a lawsuit if she didn't push for the best deal for her company. It's not for the faint of heart, but Renata is not any more gutsy than any other high-ranking corporate executive.

Edited March 7, 2017 by chocolatine

[sasha206]

Just now, racked said:

Insecurity is a universal trait - it makes complete sense to me that a manipulative abuser like Perry would have insecurity.  Attractive wealthy guys aren't immune. 

I think Laura Dern is gorgeous and has aged like a fine wine.

Good first point; I'll still quibble on Dern as I don't think she's ever been gorgeous.  I never thought she was even that attractive. I think she has aged well though.

[stillshimpy]

Just now, chocolatine said:

Acquisition deals are very different from job offers; the stakes are much higher and the executives wouldn't get nearly as much money anywhere else. It's called "golden handcuffs" for a reason. And like I said, fiduciary duty. Renata would be opening herself up to a lawsuit if she didn't push for the best deal for her company. It's not for the faint of heart, but Renata is not any more gutsy than any other high-ranking corporate executive.

 

 

Right, but the part you're not factoring in is that news of the merger spreads...and so does interest in your talent.  She's in an industry that needs a particular type of talent that is in somewhat limited supply.  Competitors in the tech industry will then make job offers to the executives they want in the wake of a merger.    

You're right, she's offering something standard.  The reason it is brave is that mergers at that level (stock, publicly traded company) will be covered in the news...and anyone who wants your assets (again, in the tech industry...which is really competitive) will swoop in with opportunities and offers.  

Renata made a point of saying that was for everyone.  Not negotiable.  She's cutting off counter-offers.  In the tech industry, in California?  I get paler every time I type that.  That's not the mark of someone who hesitates or lacks nerve.  Gutsy. 

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Renata's written to sound like a tough Silicon Valley VC type by writers that know enough about it to sound believable to those with a passing acquaintance with the terms.  That's all.  What it sounds like to someone in the industry is what House probably sounds like to Doctors or CSI to cops.... a mishmosh of industry terms chosen with little thought, purely for verbal impact.  

It wasn't factually wrong, it was just generic acquisition talk. And she's not the VC, she's a board member/director of the acquiring company, since she was trying to make sure the executives of the acquired company don't just take the money and run - the three-year vest makes sure they have skin in the game. The VC wouldn't care about any of that as long as they liked the valuation.

[stillshimpy]

Well, and seriously, I don't want to be all dog with a bone about it either but I thought it was a significant character trait.  She clearly does have insecurities.  Her daughter's successful birthday party is not universally successful if six people are lured away from it.  That's not the mark of a secure person.   

Then we see her charging through her day, making a really gutsy call given that industry.  There are implications from what she was saying.  That's why that dialogue was in the final cut.  It illustrates something about Renata that is significant.  She doesn't hesitate.   If you dig a little deeper on it, it is actually an unblinking and really self-assured thing to state unequivocally, no exceptions, that's how it is.  

It feels like Renata has taken every natural fear and insecurity about her actions and projected it onto everything in her daughter's life.  It's the area she gets to be insecure in and second-guess herself and really kind of want to curry favor.   But then, as soon as she isn't getting the intended result from the communication, out comes the cut-throat.  

I am enjoying the hell out of Laura Dern's performance but it's partly because Renata's a character that actually has a lot of nuance.  

All of these characters have a lot of nuanced characteristics.  It's freaking delightful! 

[humbleopinion]

At least you can hear Renata when she speak...not unlike a foghorn.

Celeste's and Perry's voices are in low measured, angry tones or sexy talk.

[stillshimpy]

I have the closed-captioning on for this show because regardless of what I'm doing, it's necessary.   They aren't winning any sound-engineering emmys for this one.  Holy audio levels, hearing man.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

I'm a big fan of Nicole's but in this part I find her so muted and hidden!  I'm honestly a little befuddled about everyone's raves for her performance but it's probably the same issue I always have - I love the dynamic, flashy parts with a huge range of emotion instead of the more reserved, "internal" ones.

I'm a big fan of Adam Scott but I am really not sure how I feel about Ed.  I appreciate Adam's range though - he's always playing a different kind of character and I've certainly never seen him act in a part like this before.  (When he was coming up he'd play bit parts in comedies like Monster-in-Law and Step Brothers, and he is so funny.)

Edited March 7, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Lemons]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't see Renata obsessing about her daughter's exquisitely refined specialness.  I see a mother with unlimited resources who's afraid she's not doing enough for a daughter who's claiming to be bullied.

As a gifted person with a gifted child and working in education and having read a lot on giftedness, I don't see gifted kids as 'spectacular little shits', etc.  They come in all personalities.  A very common one is the quiet, sensitive, thoughtful type, kind of like Amabella.  I'm sorry you've had such negative experiences.  

How "gifted" is the kid that she could not definitely identify who strangled her?

[J-Man]

The best description I've heard of "Avenue Q:" It's "Sesame Street" for adults.

Quote

I wouldn't be able to drive over that bridge.

The Bixby Creek Bridge, as mentioned above, is very real and is part of California Highway 1. However, there would be very little reason for anyone living in the Monterey-Carmel area to be driving over it as often as it's shown in this series. The bridge is significantly SOUTH of that area, and there is nothing beyond it other than the remote, isolated Big Sur coast for many miles. Unless for some reason Celeste and Perry are going to a therapist in Big Sur, I can't imagine why they'd be driving over that bridge. Of course, this show is playing fast and loose with geography anyway, so I guess it's no big deal that they want to work in as many scenes as possible of one of the more photogenic bridges in the world.

[MaryWebGirl]

7 minutes ago, J-Man said:

The Bixby Creek Bridge, as mentioned above, is very real and is part of California Highway 1. However, there would be very little reason for anyone living in the Monterey-Carmel area to be driving over it as often as it's shown in this series. The bridge is significantly SOUTH of that area, and there is nothing beyond it other than the remote, isolated Big Sur coast for many miles. Unless for some reason Celeste and Perry are going to a therapist in Big Sur, I can't imagine why they'd be driving over that bridge. Of course, this show is playing fast and loose with geography anyway, so I guess it's no big deal that they want to work in as many scenes as possible of one of the more photogenic bridges in the world.

Thank you! I've only been to Monterey once and Big Sur once on different trips, but I remember the bridge like you said--way south and not really near much. Seeing everyone drive over it all the time made me think I wasn't remembering it correctly.

One scene I really liked was when Jane "saw" someone breaking the windows and getting in. That struck me as very realistic for a person with anxiety or PTSD.