S07.E11: Hostiles and Calamities

[Dodginblue]

I wonder what was up with that long haired kid who picked something up off the table and caught Eugene's attention.   That was about the only thing that interested me in this episode.  I don't care about Dwight, feel no connection to him or his wife --and how pathetic is it that the writers try to create empathy for them by having Dwight read some letter she wrote.  Dwight killed Denise and acted fairly happy doing it.  Now he's a troubled soul on some kind of redemption arc?  I don't know, I don't care.

Eugene did what Eugene does.  That isn't shocking.  I get that there's probably some big reason coming up where him being inside the Saviors compound will matter so the show had to get him there but, again, pathetic that they couldn't come up with some kind of story line that didn't just repeat what they've already done with this character.  The actor who plays Eugene is fun to watch and I think he did his best to create a bit of nuance in how he presented the character in this episode.

I don't know if those girls were trying to set Eugene up or not.  I suspect not because we're supposed to believe that there's all this quiet resistance to Negan.  Because he's such a evil monster.    I don't exactly know how the show could have done this all differently but it just doesn't sell, Negan as the devil incarnate.  Is it the actor?  Maybe.  I think it's more the writing.   

I am Negan.  We are Negan.  I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.  It just sounds stupid to me.

[Dodginblue]

57 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I am sooooo happy I watched the Oscars instead of this episode; the Oscars had more suspense and the ending was way more thrilling!  I caught a repeat after the Oscars and it was heartbreaking to see so many people with so little invested in their jobs; everyone's just going through the motions.  I think the doctor was actually screaming for joy that he was free of all of the bullshit.

JDM is committing career suicide.  I think a lot of the actors careers are basically over thanks to this show.  Andrew Lincoln is lucky he has that Jethro Tull money coming in because he's ALWAYS going to be Rick Grimes.  MMB didn't have much of a career before so I don't think it will matter either way.  Lennie had a pretty good resume before so he won't have to worry too much.  Norman Reedus also worked a lot before TWD; Daryl is just one of the many greasy, redneck characters he's played.  Danai's fortunate because she's got her theatrical career going and some high-profile films coming up, which is great since Michonne is turning out to be less than the career-making gig it SHOULD have been.  I can't think of the last time that Michonne actually spoke about what SHE wanted or what SHE was feeling.  Michonne is there to prop Rick and an amazing actor is being wasted.

I don't think JDM is committing career suicide.    He's delivering an okay performance given what he has to work with.    And I think Andrew Lincoln will be just fine.   He can go back to the UK and I think he'll find plenty of roles, kind of like Idris Elba, the actor who played Stringer Bell in The Wire.

[Nashville]

21 minutes ago, Dodginblue said:

I wonder what was up with that long haired kid who picked something up off the table and caught Eugene's attention.   That was about the only thing that interested me in this episode.  

Symbolic rebellion.  The blonde Savior had just finished explaining the points system to Eugene, and the first thing Eugene sees immediately after is someone taking something without signing for it.  No better illustration in the world that Negan's stranglehold isn't as tight as Negan would have Eugene think.

[Dodginblue]

1 minute ago, Nashville said:

Symbolic rebellion.  The blonde Savior had just finished explaining the points system to Eugene, and the first thing Eugene sees immediately after is someone taking something without signing for it.  No better illustration in the world that Negan's stranglehold isn't as tight as Negan would have Eugene think.

Yes, it's probably something dull like that.  I was hoping for something more.  Like Eugene recognized him as the little brother he thought was an early ZA casualty and didn't know was still alive.   Seriously, though, what I thought watching it was that Eugene was thinking about ratting him out, a way to show dedication to his new group.  

[MVFrostsMyPie]

1 hour ago, BetyBee said:

Ha ha, like the zipper on his zipped up to his neck pleather jacket!  Or better yet, what if Lucille got dragged in there and King Negan started crying like a baby man?

OMG, that would be hilarious!

[Boofish]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

 

Uhhh... I seem to recall an enraged Abraham dribbling Eugene's braincase off the asphalt by the fire engine when Eugene's Big Lie was revealed.  

Guess karma bit Abraham back hard on the head trauma, 

But that's not everyone at Alexandria treating him like crap and calling him a coward. Abraham was angry and got past it. I guess my point is he has no reason to hate anyone except Rosita. 

[Dodginblue]

1 minute ago, Boofish said:

But that's not everyone at Alexandria treating him like crap and calling him a coward. Abraham was angry and got past it. I guess my point is he has no reason to hate anyone except Rosita. 

I don't think Eugene is a hating kind of guy.     He has a lot of guile but no malice.   Of all the characters on this show he's the only one I've devoted any time to thinking about what that character would have been like pre-ZA.   

[SnarkyTart]

duplicate

Edited February 28, 2017 by SnarkyTart

[ByTor]

13 hours ago, diebartdie said:

OK, couple things......Negan decided to go on and murder the on-site physician because, due to Eugene's babbling, he believes Eugene to also be a physician. Now the babbling Im referring to annoyed me to no end and here's why (I freely admit, this is the nit pickiest of nits) ... Eugene babbled that he had a PhD in something and another PhD in something else and that he had "completed doctoral work and was also a medical doctor" or something to that effect. I suppose the average person might not be aware that a person holding a PhD in ANY field has completed doctoral work and that "D" indicates that they are indeed a doctor. A physician may OR MAY NOT have a DOCTORAL degree. Not ALL physicians are doctors but EVERYONE who has completed their doctoral course work and successfully defended their thesis is a doctor. I guess its a small thing but it gets right up my damn nose!

Sure they are, a physician is either an MD or a DO...that is a doctor.  Unless what you mean is not all physicians have PhDs which yeah, MD-PhDs aren't particularly common.  I don't recall Eugene claiming to be an MD-PhD, but I could have missed it.

21 hours ago, Dobian said:

So Eugene has three chicks in the room and he'd rather play Yar's Revenge than get a massage. 

Negan said "No sex," Eugene was just trying to avoid temptation and Negan's wrath.

Speaking of the wives, when brunette wife called Eugene a coward, I SO wanted him to say something like "You tried to trick someone else into doing dirty work that you're too afraid to do for yourself, what does that make you?"  I still like Eugene, and now I fear that the death pill is going to end up being used on him. 

[ganesh]

I don't think JDM is committing career suicide. He has been working steady in a variety of roles for a long time. He'll continue to after this. I'd be surprised if this is anything but a job for him. 

[Yemayah]

sorry-duplicate

Edited March 1, 2017 by Yemayah
duplicate post

[Yemayah]

sorry-duplicate post

Edited March 1, 2017 by Yemayah
dupicate post

[Yemayah]

15 hours ago, diebartdie said:

....the average person might not be aware that a person holding a PhD in ANY field has completed doctoral work and that "D" indicates that they are indeed a doctor. A physician may OR MAY NOT have a DOCTORAL degree. Not ALL physicians are doctors but EVERYONE who has completed their doctoral course work and successfully defended their thesis is a doctor. I guess its a small thing but it gets right up my damn nose!

 

I agree with your thought that the show might be setting up Eugene to be a hero- among other heros- in the survival of CDB, but coming through with something only he can do.

Let me pick a nit a bit a wee bit more.  I don’t mean to define your meaning or put words in your mouth, but perhaps you meant to say that not all people with a doctoral degree or who are called ‘Doctor’ are physicians, all physicians are doctors who have a doctoral degree  (Doctor of Medicine or MD), but not all physicians have PhDs.    MD, PhD, JD, DPH, SciD, DVM, DSW, DO, etc, are all doctoral degrees and the degree-holder may be introduced as Doctor (usually not lawyers). Somewhere along the way, doctor became synonymous with physician, therefore clarification is usually required in some situations.  In a certain situation, a PhD might clarify and add: I am not a medical doctor. Agent Dana Scully in The X-Files famously would clarify, when in a medical setting and getting the stink-eye from a medical person because she initially identified herself as an FBI agent but started spouting medical jargon:  I’m Dr. Scully…I’m a medical doctor. 

[Vyk]

13 hours ago, Timetoread said:

But do we care?  Let me answer that...

No, let me.

I do.  We've only seen a little bit of Sherry, but I like her and care about her.  In a post-apocalyptic world, she seems to be one of the very few people to maintain her compassion and humanity.  That alone makes me care about her and actually want to see her get out of her situation.  And it looks like she has.

I don't know if she'll just travel alone for a long while or end up at one of the communities (Alexandria, Hilltop, Kingdom, Oceanside, Junkyard, or some new, heretofore-unseen community), but I do hope to see her again soon.

So yeah.  Someone cares.  I do.

[ByTor]

6 hours ago, Vyk said:

We've only seen a little bit of Sherry, but I like her and care about her.  In a post-apocalyptic world, she seems to be one of the very few people to maintain her compassion and humanity. 

I thought she said in that letter to Dwight that he was a good person, unlike her.  Maybe I misinterpreted, but I thought she was acknowledging that while Dwight became an asshole due to the ZA, she was always one.

I forgot to mention, food is scarce.  Why would someone waste a perfectly good bag of pretzels and a 6 pack of beer just to be a drama queen?  I rolled my eyes so hard at that scene I think they're still up up up my eyelids.

Edited February 28, 2017 by ByTor

[RainOnToosdays]

18 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Eugene taught them how to get drinkable water.  He knew which components were needed to fix the power grid back when the show was still pretending that any of this was about building and maintaining a stable community.  He knew which seeds and plants they should be looking for.  He risked himself for Tara and later the entire group.  He did know how to make bullets and later stepped up and admitted his responsibility for it when he had every reason to think that probably wouldn't end well for him.  And he was smart enough to trick the supposedly superior badasses into protecting him when he couldn't protect himself.  That last one alone makes him more interesting than half the personality-free members of Rick's crew.

17 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

So much this.  He has knowledge and skills that have been shown to be valuable:  he helped feed them, get clean water, maintain their energy grid, and give them ammo so they could defend themselves - skills that are all vital in a post-apocalyptic world.  Eugene's Big Lie actually saved Abraham's life.  He was about to put a bullet in his own head when Eugene have him a reason to live.  Yet they call him useless and coward because he's nervous and can't aim a gun very well.  Fuck CDB.  I hope Eugene becomes king of the Sanctuary.

I also credit Eugene with saving Glenn and Tara's lives.  Back when Abe was sleeping in the back seat and Eugene purposefully mis-navigated Rosita so they'd end up at the end of the tunnel Glenn and Tara were going through. If they hadn't been there there would have been no cavalry w/ guns blazing to save Glenn and Tara from their predicament. And Maggie might have passed right on by - she couldn't have known Glenn was in there -  had there not been a car there with three people in it to get her attention.  If I recall correctly, Rosita was mad and asked Eugene why he led them back there and he said something to the effect of "because we still have to live with ourselves when this is all over".

Anyone who has survived this long must have some sort of skill. Eugene's happens to be subterfuge. I like Eugene. I like the funny way he talks and his awkwardness and his ability to admit he's no fearless hero. False bravado will get you killed in this world.

[Timetoread]

7 hours ago, Vyk said:

No, let me.

I do.  We've only seen a little bit of Sherry, but I like her and care about her.  In a post-apocalyptic world, she seems to be one of the very few people to maintain her compassion and humanity.  That alone makes me care about her and actually want to see her get out of her situation.  And it looks like she has.

I don't know if she'll just travel alone for a long while or end up at one of the communities (Alexandria, Hilltop, Kingdom, Oceanside, Junkyard, or some new, heretofore-unseen community), but I do hope to see her again soon.

So yeah.  Someone cares.  I do.

Well God bless you!  I don't find her interesting at all.  Nor do I see anything compassionate or caring about her.  She was complicit in what she and Dwight did to Daryl long before they ended up at the Savior's compound.  She volunteered to become Negan's whore just so that she can turn her husband into one as well.  So she's crushing on Daryl now, because she reminds her of when her husband had balls (before she and Eugene removed them).  And she supposedly frees Daryl and leaves the compound knowing full and GD well that Negan is going to kill somebody innocent for that.  And he did.  First he tortured the husband she supposedly loves and then he killed the doctor that liked her.  She's another Lori.  If she ends up in Alexandria, I hope Michonne puts the katana straight through her before Rick starts looking her way.  We know he likes those types.

[Vyk]

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 7:12 AM, Timetoread said:

And she supposedly frees Daryl and leaves the compound knowing full and GD well that Negan is going to kill somebody innocent for that.  And he did.

If that's what she thought, I don't think she would have left.  I don't for a minute believe that's what she thought.  She had to have known Negan would be out for her blood, not Dwight's or Dr. Carson's.  That is why she left.  She had absolutely zero way of knowing that Dwight would frame Dr. Carson.

And made herself one of his whores just so her husband would be one?  Nope. Don't believe that, either.  It was made more than clear that she did that to keep him from facing his full wrath.

Still interested in her.  Not budging.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Vyk

[AngelaHunter]

40 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

She's another Lori.  If she ends up in Alexandria, I hope Michonne puts the katana straight through her before Rick starts looking her way.  We know he likes those types.

LOL! He does, doesn't he? He likes women who act like helpless damsels in distress looking to him for rescue, but are really quite sly and manipulative.

[JackONeill]

Poor Rick just can't get a break!!!

[nodorothyparker]

I can't remember now who it was, but some reviewer said the entire problem with the Dwight-Sherry story is that it's being framed through mopey dopey Dwight's perspective.  He made the argument that if it was shown as Sherry's story instead of being told through letters and lipstick stained cigarettes, it'd be apparent that she's the real driver and hero of this story and it would have made for much more compelling viewing than the drippy uninteresting mess of Dwight feels really bad but then does something terrible and then feels bad some more that we're getting.  I hadn't thought of it in those terms at all, but I could see what he was getting at.   

Their introductory escape was about Sherry wanting to keep her sister safe and get them away from the Saviors, which most of us can probably agree was a solid course of action.  After that goes sideways, she grits her teeth and signs up for the Robert Palmer inspired rape harem to keep herself and dopey Dwight alive.   She realizes the innocent bystander they screwed over in their escape is being tortured and tries to right it by helping him get away.  Seeing that that action is likely to rebound on her and Dwight is going to continue to mope but do little else, she gets the hell out of Dodge entirely on her own steam.  

I don't care about either of these characters as presented, but I might have had this been the focus instead of more and more Ironface feeling bad and then doing bad things anyway.  

[SillyOldClothCat]

  19 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Eugene taught them how to get drinkable water.  He knew which components were needed to fix the power grid back when the show was still pretending that any of this was about building and maintaining a stable community.  He knew which seeds and plants they should be looking for.  He risked himself for Tara and later the entire group.  He did know how to make bullets and later stepped up and admitted his responsibility for it when he had every reason to think that probably wouldn't end well for him.  And he was smart enough to trick the supposedly superior badasses into protecting him when he couldn't protect himself.  That last one alone makes him more interesting than half the personality-free members of Rick's crew.

  19 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

So much this.  He has knowledge and skills that have been shown to be valuable:  he helped feed them, get clean water, maintain their energy grid, and give them ammo so they could defend themselves - skills that are all vital in a post-apocalyptic world.  Eugene's Big Lie actually saved Abraham's life.  He was about to put a bullet in his own head when Eugene have him a reason to live.  Yet they call him useless and coward because he's nervous and can't aim a gun very well.  Fuck CDB.  I hope Eugene becomes king of the Sanctuary.

I also credit Eugene with saving Glenn and Tara's lives.  Back when Abe was sleeping in the back seat and Eugene purposefully mis-navigated Rosita so they'd end up at the end of the tunnel Glenn and Tara were going through. If they hadn't been there there would have been no cavalry w/ guns blazing to save Glenn and Tara from their predicament. And Maggie might have passed right on by - she couldn't have known Glenn was in there -  had there not been a car there with three people in it to get her attention.  If I recall correctly, Rosita was mad and asked Eugene why he led them back there and he said something to the effect of "because we still have to live with ourselves when this is all over".

Anyone who has survived this long must have some sort of skill. Eugene's happens to be subterfuge. I like Eugene. I like the funny way he talks and his awkwardness and his ability to admit he's no fearless hero. False bravado will get you killed in this world.

A resounding "YES!" to this post and the others it quoted. This was my favorite episode of TWD in a long time.

[Save Yourself]

On 28/02/2017 at 0:31 AM, ghoulina said:

Yea, do they have another doctor just sitting around in some apartment, twiddling his thumbs and waiting for his chance? Doctors sure as hell aren't replaceable. CDB has struggled to keep one. They've had a vet and a psychiatrist. Was Dr. Ben a true medical MD? Dr. Carson was, but into the fire with you. I like the character of Dwight, but from Negan's standpoint, I'm not sure what makes him so special. Unless he keeps him around just to torment him, and death would be too easy. 

Every time anyone with medical training has died on the show I want to cry! So far Hershel; Denise; Bob (medic); Dr S (from the prison); the doctor from Slabtown (who the other dr killed); Porchdick (ok, I wasn't too upset when he died) and now Dr Carson. And no one has even thought to grab a first aid book on a run ?. 

Maybe that's why he wanted to keep Dirty Daryl around, so that he'd have a replacement for Dwight ?.

[Timetoread]

1 hour ago, Vyk said:

If that's what she thought, I don't think she would have left.  I don't for a minute believe that's what she thought.  She had to have known Negan would be out for her blood, not Dwight's or Dr. Carson's.  That is why she left.  She had absolutely zero way of knowing that Dwight would frame Dr. Carson.

And made herself one of his whores just so her husband would be one?  Nope. Don't believe that, either. It was made more than clear that she did that to keep him from facing his full wrath.

Still interested in her. Not budging.

LOL!  I'm not trying to get you to budge.  I think I answered myself though.  She reminds me of Lori and Supercuts.  Their deaths kept me loyal to the show and restored my faith in humanity all that is good and holy.  I don't think she could anticipate exactly who would suffer Negan's wrath but she knew that SOMEONE would.  Selfish useless Lori cow!  Did I mention that I hated Lori?

53 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

Poor Rick just can't get a break!!!

He's on a break now.  Her name is Michonne.  Let's just hope he is smart enough to know what he's got and not slide back to destructive behaviors (Lori/Supercuts type women).

[Nashville]

45 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

LOL!  I'm not trying to get you to budge.  I think I answered myself though.  She reminds me of Lori and Supercuts.  Their deaths kept me loyal to the show and restored my faith in humanity all that is good and holy.  I don't think she could anticipate exactly who would suffer Negan's wrath but she knew that SOMEONE would.  Selfish useless Lori cow!  Did I mention that I hated Lori?

I LOVE to hate Lori.  Hating on Lori is one of my favorite things since hating on Kate in Lost.

Had I mentioned I hate Kate?  :D

[Madding crowd]

I thought it was a good episode although I don't exactly like Eugene. To me he still seems like a comic book character rather than a human being. A flashback into his past might have helped but I don't know if we will see that now. I don't blame him for the I'm Negan stuff though; what else can he do? Daryl got away with  resisting and just being put in a cell, but Negan could easily kill anyone. 

I still find Negan and his insane bending really, really annoying. I also will never understand why these people are just waiting around for their turn with the iron. And I have seen nothing to indicate Negan is intelligent. He killed their only  doctor for Pete's sake. What happens if someone gets appendicitis?  Eugene is going to cut them open? He would run away crying. I agree the poison pill thing was a test instigated by Negan. As far as Dwight I appreciate him trying to protect Sherry, but not at the expense of someone else. Why didn't he just grab some supplies and take off? I know we are supposed to think  Negan is alll seeing and knowing, but surely there is somewhere one person could hide?

I thought Sherry's letter was referring to them joining Negan so her sister could get medicine. Am I  remembering wrong? In that case, she wasn't being selfish-she probably didn't know she would end up in Negan's harem.  I am curious as to Negan's rules on sex. He said no sex to Eugene, but didn't he offer up  sex to Dwight at one point? 

[TigerLynx]

I think it could go either way with Negan's wives.  Two of them seemed to know what they were doing, and the blond looks like she is about to have a nervous breakdown.  Negan knows a pretty girl, Rosita, talked Eugene into making the bullet so it could have been a test, and Negan's wives could still want him dead.  They are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

When Negan was talking to his henchmen, he said something along the lines of he was going to try to be nice first.  The blond girl that was showing Eugene around commented on Eugene being one of them now.  Negan's wives said something similar.  It's okay your with us, you are one of us now.

Whether Eugene has a plan, or has simply decided it's better to be with Negan than against him, Eugene's terror when he first got to the Saviors' compound was real.  If Daryl had immediately said, "I'm Negan," Negan wouldn't have believed him.  With Eugene it's much easier, because Eugene was afraid, and he never tried to pretend otherwise.  There was no need to "break" Eugene by putting him in solitary confinement or beating him up.

Call me crazy or sadistic or both, but I somewhat understand Negan's methods.  A dictator having a hierarchy, an inner circle, enforcers, using fear, etc., is very common.  However, Negan goes so excessively over the top, and takes things to such extremes.  Viciously killing the doctor that way was dumb for so many reasons.  There is a reason why some dictators despite the horrible things they do remain in power for decades versus dictators that are overthrown or killed in a few years.

[AngelaHunter]

6 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

He said no sex to Eugene, but didn't he offer up  sex to Dwight at one point? 

Yeah, I seem to recall Negan giving Dwight an "open house at the pussy bar" (something incredibly disgusting yet for some perverse reason hilarious to me) Maybe he figured it's the least he can do after snatching Dwight's woman and burning half his face off. Or maybe he offerered that as a put-down since he thinks Dwight can't get it up any more. Also incredibly disgusting. The last thing on this planet I want to be forced to think about is Dwight's penis. Ugh. Yuck. Bleeech!

[Ohwell]

In that photo of him and Sherry, I was surprised that Dwight didn't look so bad.  I know the ZA changes people's looks for the worse, but he was rather nice-looking.

[raven]

7 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I also will never understand why these people are just waiting around for their turn with the iron.

Haha, this made me laugh.  Good point too, one I've wondered about.

Since Negan isn't frightening or charismatic, he needs a group of trusted lieutenants to help keep everyone in line and he doesn't even have that - he takes their wives, insults them, etc.  I guess they get their pick of the good food so it's worth it, plus they get to bully people? Yay?  The show just hasn't proved to me why the Savior camp is functioning - the majority seem exhausted and dirty with no way to improve their position - hell, Eugene comes in and gets the best of everything for basically doing nothing.    Now their "brilliant" leader just threw their only doctor in the oven, which the show did so solely for shock value; the method to get there was so convoluted.  

Though Austin Amelio is doing a decent job, I'm not interested in the Dwight/Sherry drama.   I did like the Eugene stuff - he,s tried, but he's NOT brave, he's on his own, he's just seen this guy kill Spencer and have Denise killed, he was there for Abraham/Glenn and has been watching Rick capitulate.  Why, exactly, should Eugene do anything other than go along?  I don't think he has any plan with Dwight (the "We are Negan" at the end made me laugh too, so matter-of-fact).  I wouldn't rule one out in the future but I think Eugene would need a compelling reason to risk himself. 

[festivus]

On 2/27/2017 at 5:26 PM, Dobian said:

I'm pretty sure that this is my final season watching the show, so I am going to enjoy these last five episodes for what they're worth and reminisce about how cool this show used to be.  The writing for both Negan and the Saviors has been awful, and the wacky communities in this post-ZA world make no sense.

Yes, how far we have fallen since the first few seasons when we had a complex villain in Shane. I just don't understand why Negan is so evil and why everyone follows him. Makes you wonder what kind of community Shane would be running if he were still around. 

 

On 2/27/2017 at 3:39 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

Good point about the "stuff".  Food and energy would be very challenging to get.  But, top of the line electronics, appliances, furniture and automobiles would be plentiful. All sorts of boats, of all sizes and fishing and camping gear would also be available.  They could  be riding around in the most luxurious, but fuel efficient, cars,  wearing designer clothes, and more jewelry than Mr. T.  

I would be wearing yoga pants and t-shirts but I'd have my crib blinged out to hell. I'd have all the art project cats and owls a person could find. I'd have the Mona Lisa too if I could get my hands on it. Why not? I liked it when Aaron was looking for license plates from all 50 states. 

 

As far as Sherry and Dwight, I agree that I might care more if the story was being told through Sherry. Dwight's in the comics, right? Is Sherry? Dwight just bores me and we already have a Daryl. One is definitely enough.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, raven said:

I did like the Eugene stuff - he,s tried, but he's NOT brave, he's on his own, he's just seen this guy kill Spencer and have Denise killed, he was there for Abraham/Glenn and has been watching Rick capitulate.  Why, exactly, should Eugene do anything other than go along?

Exactly. How brave do you have to be to risk having your skull caved in or half your face burned off for principles? I don't particularly have a taste for torture (not anyone's, but especially not mine) or having my head bashed in and I admit I'd go along too. You want me to be a "wife"? Why, sure! Gimme a minute to dig up some heels to match this little black dress.

Other than that, I never dreamed I'd be nostalgic for Se02. I am now.  It bored me silly, but now I'd gladly watch human/interpersonal interaction and moral struggles vs. "who is the biggest, baddedst, evil-est of them all?" and "How many freaked-out groups can we invent?" Okay, season two without Dale. I'm there.

[Mu Shu]

10 hours ago, Nashville said:

I LOVE to hate Lori.  Hating on Lori is one of my favorite things since hating on Kate in Lost.

Had I mentioned I hate Kate?  :D

Lol.  I hated Lori, but I loved her too.  I can just imagine how much bitching we could do together.  She was probably a really big gossip too. 

[magpye29]

Quote

Who knows, maybe they did and he isn't the original Neagan, but one who took over after the first (or fifth) was killed by his own subjects.  

The dread pirate Negan!

[ganesh]

That makes Negan infinitely more interesting if that would be the case.

[spiderpig]

Here I am, finally, after Oscaring myself to death.

I judge episodes by how often my mind drifts to laundry/what to pack for lunch on Monday/when is this over so I can walk the dog?

I kept having to rewind the DVR since this ep simply didn't hold my attention.  And once I established some kind of continuity I just didn't care.  Eugene was fun with CDB, but not here.  Kentucky Fried Doctor I couldn't figure out.  Negan is...

I hope the writers have a big adrenalin shot ready for us next week because it's long overdue.

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Mu Shu said:

Lol.  I hated Lori, but I loved her too.  I can just imagine how much bitching we could do together.  She was probably a really big gossip too. 

Oh hell yeah.  I can remonstrate on my list of Kate&Lori parallels and complaints for 20+ minutes without having to take a break.  Might want to wait until the kids are in bed, though.  :D

[Utpe]

16 hours ago, Vyk said:

She had absolutely zero way of knowing that Dwight would frame Dr. Carson.

It's too bad Dr. Carson went out of the frying pan and right into the fire!  (Sorry, warped sense of humor I suppose.)

But, 'tis true; Sherry had no way of knowing that somebody else would pay the piper for letting Daryl go.  At most, she probably figured she'd be hunted for sport at this point.  She couldn't stand to see what Dwight became under Negan's reign.  I'd want to get the hell out of dodge myself if I were in a similar situation with a loved one.

I just hope I don't have to listen to Easy Street again for the umpteenth time.

[GreyBunny]

15 hours ago, Nashville said:

I LOVE to hate Lori.  Hating on Lori is one of my favorite things since hating on Kate in Lost.

Hehe, I hated Lori so much that I hate SWC's new character on Colony, Katie Bowman.  She's an annoying yap who shamelessly puts other people in danger, lies to her husband and sneaks around behind his back, can't keep track of her kids, and bugs her eyes out at inappropriate times (all the time, really).  Gee that sounds familiar...

14 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I still find Negan and his insane bending really, really annoying. I also will never understand why these people are just waiting around for their turn with the iron.

No kidding.  Is it really that hard to stick a knife in his neck?  Or feed him something with an overdose of sleeping pills and when he nods off then stick a knife in him?  Push him down the stairs?  Push him off a balcony?  Shoot him with an arrow?  Bash him in the head with something heavy?  The possibilities (and opportunities) are endless.  

4 minutes ago, GreyBunny said:

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by GreyBunny

[Save Yourself]

On 28/02/2017 at 5:11 AM, mrspidey said:

Because he's a coward. That was the point of the last scene. Two cowards on the balustrade. 

I think that scene is subjective, I saw it as two traitors on the balustrade. 

 

(They'll help in taking Negan down.)

Edited March 1, 2017 by Save Yourself
Clarification

[AngelaHunter]

5 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

Is it really that hard to stick a knife in his neck?  Or feed him something with an overdose of sleeping pills and when he nods off then stick a knife in him?  Push him down the stairs?  Push him off a balcony?  Shoot him with an arrow?  Bash him in the head with something heavy?

Haha! Now I'm picturing a lineup of Saviors waiting in line for their chance to do each of those things successively. Reminds me of this:

[Save Yourself]

What do people who feel that Eugene has acted in a cowardly fashion in The Sanctuary think he should have done? I just can't see any other way he could behave if he hopes to survive. He's gone in there after seeing the Lucille deaths, Spencer's intestines liberated and he's been caught assisting with an assassination attempt of Negan, I don't understand what his detractors would have had him do?

[Timetoread]

41 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Haha! Now I'm picturing a lineup of Saviors waiting in line for their chance to do each of those things successively. Reminds me of this:

That's how I felt about Lori.  I'm the old lady with a gun.

[Save Yourself]

On 28/02/2017 at 0:02 PM, mightysparrow said:

I am sooooo happy I watched the Oscars instead of this episode; the Oscars had more suspense and the ending was way more thrilling!  I caught a repeat after the Oscars and it was heartbreaking to see so many people with so little invested in their jobs; everyone's just going through the motions.  I think the doctor was actually screaming for joy that he was free of all of the bullshit.

JDM is committing career suicide.  I think a lot of the actors careers are basically over thanks to this show.  Andrew Lincoln is lucky he has that Jethro Tull money coming in because he's ALWAYS going to be Rick Grimes.  MMB didn't have much of a career before so I don't think it will matter either way.  Lennie had a pretty good resume before so he won't have to worry too much.  Norman Reedus also worked a lot before TWD; Daryl is just one of the many greasy, redneck characters he's played.  Danai's fortunate because she's got her theatrical career going and some high-profile films coming up, which is great since Michonne is turning out to be less than the career-making gig it SHOULD have been.  I can't think of the last time that Michonne actually spoke about what SHE wanted or what SHE was feeling.  Michonne is there to prop Rick and an amazing actor is being wasted.

Andrew Lincoln was well known in the U.K. prior to TWD as he has been in popular, critically acclaimed TV series. I had a shock seeing Egg (This Life) and Simon (Teachers) being a badass! I'm the same age as AL and it feels like he's always been around - I looked him up on wiki and his first TV role was at 21 so a lot of Gen X-ers on the other side of the pond have grown up with him. From what I've read, he doesn't want to work when TWD is in hiatus so he can spend time with his family - although I think he did a play last year. I doubt he'll ever be short of work. 

The only one who I think is now typecast is NR because Daryl is such a cult figure (kind of like Henry Winkler forever being Fonzie). I wonder though if he could care less as to achieve such success at his late age (in Hollywood terms) is not very common.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Save Yourself
Clarity

[qtpye]

On 2/27/2017 at 9:18 AM, nodorothyparker said:

It's actually a pretty provocative statement on survival from a show that usually insists that Rick's way is the only right way to survive.    But then this entire season so far has been full of statements like that where we've watched Rick and crew be their usual self-righteous, sometimes belligerent and reactionary selves and get smacked down time and time again while people who are finding other avenues aren't locked in a box naked in their own filth eating Alpo or rolling around in trash possibly contracting tetanus fighting a garbage walker because no one else is willing to sign up for a likely red shirt mission.  We know of course that they'll win in the end but the show isn't exactly giving a ringing endorsement of Rick's methods by painting a flattering portrait at the moment.

My response is from the AV Club's review, which I thought was interesting:

Quote

Really, if this wasn’t the intended reaction, the writers have no one but themselves to blame. After spending season after season telling us over and over again that the only people who really matter in this brave new world, the only people we should be rooting for, are the people with the will and the guts to get things done, how can we not respect Negan on some level? Awful as he is, he’s also the ultimate expression of the show’s core values: he bent the end of the world to his will, and while we can pretend that we’re upset about the cruelty of his leadership, his greatest sin is opposing Rick. It’s hard to get that upset about Eugene abandoning friends when he’s doing so for a guy who seems to understand the core values of the story he’s living in far better than said story’s protagonist ever will.

Remember, this all started with Rick and his crew killing Saviors in their sleep.  CDB actually took the first shot.  Heck, Negan only bludgeoned two guys, CDB actually killed 30 people.

I hate Negan, but why are we rooting for Rick's crew anymore?  Why the heck should anyone follow them, when they do nothing but lead to death and destruction?  Other people have managed to build communities (Hilltop, Kingdom, etc), what have CDB done for anyone?

Also, I have not given a shit about Dwight since he stole Darryl's crossbow and motorcycle.  Those must have been Daryl's superpower, because he has sucked ever since.  Stealing Daryl's stuff was not something Negan made him do, it was something he did on his own.  I have a feeling Dwight has always been something of a weasel, but now he is a murdering weasel.

Also, is Negan an idiot.  "What motivation would Dwight have to set up the doctor, so he must be telling the truth."  Uh, maybe his motivation was to save his own ass?  The doctor was the only one with access to the women continuously, besides Negan, so he made the perfect scapegoat.

[kia112]

On 2/27/2017 at 3:38 AM, GreyBunny said:

CDB treated him like crap, calling him coward because he couldn't fight and was often afraid to try (not everyone can be a warrior). They never honestly appreciated the knowledge and skills he did have, which are considerable.  He gets to the sanctuary and from day one they know he has useful skills, he's given status, and treated with respect.  I don't blame him one bit if he decides to stick with the Sanctuary.

I don't think I can buy that. They treated him like a coward because he lied to them and put them in danger by trying to get them up to D.C. Because that's cowardly. And I don't even know that all of them treated him like a coward; it was mostly Abraham and Rosita that were super salty to him. Understandable, because they were with him the longest. For the most part, they just let him be, shaking their head at his Eugene-isms, living their lives and still protected him when need-be. When Eugene decided he wanted to step up, give advice, show them he could do stuff, they were always appreciative (if a little wary, because of the, you know, lying). Let me know if I'm misremembering. 

[HighMaintenance]

I get the feeling that Eugene is getting the lay of the land at the Sanctuary.  He's got to play along to survive - and he has to survive to be able to ever see his "family", CDB again.  Sure, he's socially awkward and nerdy, but I believe he thinks pretty quickly on his feet.  So far, the Negans haven't asked him to do anything detrimental to CDB or anyone else - however that will probably come as the top Negan constantly needs reassurance that his people are willing to do anything for him.

Now as far as the Saviors overall: why would anyone willingly want to be a part of this group?  The only ones eating well and having a good time are the upper 25, who seem to be the bullies, sadists and assholes.  Everyone else is paying points for pickles and looking like they live in a dumpster and attend face brandings on a regular basis.  Hell, even if you try to leave and make it on your own, you're hunted down and brought back and maimed or killed.

As far as the show overall:  an ever shrinking part of me hopes that something interesting or exciting will happen on this series.  I personally hate watch more than for enjoyment - because it's a one note show.  Glimmer of hope for the future, destruction of that glimmer of hope.  Lather, Rinse, Repeat...  Our favorite characters are no longer interesting, the walkers are no longer a viable threat, other groups are either the biggest evil that ever eviled, or are just ignorant/quirky due to their isolation from the rest of society.  CDBs arrival at Alexandria is when the story became tedious, for me.

[ganesh]

Quote

It’s hard to get that upset about Eugene abandoning friends when he’s doing so for a guy who seems to understand the core values of the story he’s living in far better than said story’s protagonist ever will.

Are these people watching the same show? It was very clear in the episode that Eugene played Negan like a fiddle and isn't abandoning anybody. I don't think coming up for a plan to weld the zombie to the fence really means he's totally "Negan" now. If anything, I think the episode underscores how ridiculous the whole Negan concept is. 

13 minutes ago, HighMaintenance said:

 So far, the Negans haven't asked him to do anything detrimental to CDB or anyone else - however that will probably come as the top Negan constantly needs reassurance that his people are willing to do anything for him.

And even then. If Eugene is the camp doctor now, how often is he going to be 'in the field' anyway? He can pass intel through Dwight to CDB. 

[mightysparrow]

It's true that CDB didn't take advantage of Eugene's abilities and that was very foolish of them.  On the other hand, Eugene didn't offer to use any of his abilities unless his life or comfort was on the line.  Eugene would make a suggestion about how he knew how to do something and the rest of CDB would usually shrug and turn away.  But why would they do anything else?  Eugene is a known LIAR, a man who got people killed to save his own hide, who preyed upon Abraham's mental state to save his flabby skin.  It was on Eugene to prove himself and he rarely did.  I'm not a Tara fan but she threw herself into showing that she was worthy of trust.  Rosita had to verbally tear a strip off Eugene's flesh to get one little bullet.

Eugene is a weak little mouse and the ZA must be hell for someone like that.  Someone who isn't a brave person or even a very good person, but someone who just wants to SURVIVE.  It shouldn't be a crime to just want to live.  But in the ZA, you have to do more than that.  You have to be about more than keeping your measly skin intact.  That's why I don't care about Eugene, certainly not enough for him to deserve his own episode.  There's enough comic relief on the show.   Negan should be followed around by a drummer to provide him with a rimshot every time she tosses off a quip.  Eugene is a weak little man.  There are more interesting characters on the show who haven't had an entire episode devoted to them.  Someone like, I don't, MICHONNE. 

I have to wonder just what are tptb so afraid of that they won't give Michonne a stand-alone episode.  Are they afraid that it will make it clear just how talented Danai is and how criminally she's been wasted?  Do they have so much invested in the status quo that they would ruin one of the most important characters in the Walking Dead world, to keep their leaky ship afloat?  Whatever it is, it's redefining stupid.  They must know how unpopular Lori was (we hear it all the time).  And how popular Jessie aka Lori 2.0 was.  So why would they turn one of the coolest female characters in graphic novels into Lori 3.0?

[ElleMo]

Quote

 

 ON 2/27/2017 AT 9:04 AM, DIEBARTDIE SAID:

OK, couple things......Negan decided to go on and murder the on-site physician because, due to Eugene's babbling, he believes Eugene to also be a physician. Now the babbling Im referring to annoyed me to no end and here's why (I freely admit, this is the nit pickiest of nits) ... Eugene babbled that he had a PhD in something and another PhD in something else and that he had "completed doctoral work and was also a medical doctor" or something to that effect. I suppose the average person might not be aware that a person holding a PhD in ANY field has completed doctoral work and that "D" indicates that they are indeed a doctor. A physician may OR MAY NOT have a DOCTORAL degree. Not ALL physicians are doctors but EVERYONE who has completed their doctoral course work and successfully defended their thesis is a doctor. I guess its a small thing but it gets right up my damn nose!

 

6

 

On 2/27/2017 at 10:59 PM, ByTor said:

Sure they are, a physician is either an MD or a DO...that is a doctor.  Unless what you mean is not all physicians have PhDs which yeah, MD-PhDs aren't particularly common.  I don't recall Eugene claiming to be an MD-PhD, but I could have missed it.

 

Except in the UK. If you are a surgeon, you are a physician but you are not referred to as  Doctor.  Dr. Strange would Mr. Strange in the UK.  That is because back in the Middle Ages Doctors were trained at the University but to become a surgeon, you have to be an apprentice to one.  Often the surgeon was also the barber and dentist (which back then meant tooth extractions). And that form of address was never changed even after surgeons were required to go to medical school.

Anyway, Eugene mentioned having several PhDs and being part of the Human Genome Project.  So that makes people think Medical doctor. (As opposed to, for example, saying you had a Ph.D. in astrophysics)

Someone refresh my memory - was the doctor an actual physician prior to the ZA?