S01.E09: The Villain That's Become

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

As the Wizard arrives in the Kingdom of Ev, an intense negotiation may lead to a standoff with Langwidere. Dorothy and Lucas find themselves on opposite sides. Meanwhile, Jack makes a decision that may have deadly consequences. Elsewhere, Tip and West solidify their bond and mount a battle of their own.

 

[Primetimer]

Events come to a head, as everyone follows the Yellow Brick Road to the finale.

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[rollacoaster]

When Dorothy showed up, my reaction was "Oh, yeah..........she is still in this." I was so caught up in the other characters' stories that I had totally forgotten about her. 

I feel that Toto rescued Dorothy from Roan because she is his way home.

Also: Skinless Warren!

[Morrigan2575]

Was the dude in the tree the Beast Forever?

This was unexpected. I guess I'm supposed to be rooting for Dorothy but, I kind of don't like her anymore. She's surprisingly more selfish than Tip. Plus kind of cold blooded, putting Lucas back up on a cross...yikes!

Lady Ev being a robot was surprising but, I think it was irrelevant at the point. The best shock was Lady Ev getting killed in the first place.

I'm glad Toto is OK, I actually worried Lucas might have killed him and that would have killed the show for me.

I liked that the Wizard used a Trojan Horse sneak attack to get his people into Ev. I also enjoyed seeing the Jane/Frank confrontation. Frank really is an egotistical coward. 

The scenes with the witches in the woods was interesting. Looking forward to seeing how it all ends.

[TroopinFairy]

15 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Was the dude in the tree the Beast Forever?

This was unexpected. I guess I'm supposed to be rooting for Dorothy but, I kind of don't like her anymore. She's surprisingly more selfish than Tip. Plus kind of cold blooded, putting Lucas back up on a cross...yikes!

Lady Ev being a robot was surprising but, I think it was irrelevant at the point. The best shock was Lady Ev getting killed in the first place.

I'm glad Toto is OK, I actually worried Lucas might have killed him and that would have killed the show for me.

I liked that the Wizard used a Trojan Horse sneak attack to get his people into Ev. I also enjoyed seeing the Jane/Frank confrontation. Frank really is an egotistical coward. 

The scenes with the witches in the woods was interesting. Looking forward to seeing how it all ends.

I thought that Lucas wanted to be put back on the cross. Afterwards Dorothy said said something along the lines like "Now you got your wish, I never helped you."

[netlyon2]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

This was unexpected. I guess I'm supposed to be rooting for Dorothy but, I kind of don't like her anymore. She's surprisingly more selfish than Tip. Plus kind of cold blooded, putting Lucas back up on a cross...yikes

Oh, I'm with you there.  I have long felt that Dorothy is the absolute second-worst (Frank still holds the ultimate dishonor).  She's been pretty selfish for a while now, even taking her circumstances into account.  This is the same woman who was totally planning to walk out on Lucas and Sylvie after building their little family and agreed to assassinate Glinda--who hadn't done anything to her--in exchange for that trip home.  For me, she's the exact type of protagonist that I can never brook:  self-righteous, reckless, and self-absorbed.  (See also Stark, Arya and Fraser, Claire)

Whew, apparently I needed to get that off of my chest!

In other news, wow.  I was really worried that they were fridging Langwidere so that Jack-as-Tin-Man would lose his heart metaphorically as well as physically.  Yeesh, I'm not sure if the Westworld reveal was less yucky.  I'm hoping against hope that Jane will put her back together again, but I think the actress was billed as a guest star, so . . .

At this point, I'm pretty firmly Team Tip/West.  I hope that they can reconcile with Glinda and take down ole Frankie in Season 2.  I'm also hoping, of course, that there will be a Season 2.  

[SimoneS]

So Langwidere is an android. I wonder if she knows this. I hope that Jack does not give up on her. I don't think that this means that she does not have feelings or that she cannot one day since there is magic in Oz. I loved that Langwidere's soldiers were loyal to her to the end. Of course, Dorothy had to show up and ruin the Wizard's execution.

I can accept a lot of things, but abandoning your dog to the bad guy is not one of them. I couldn't believe she just left Toto in there with Roan. Dorothy must make up it up as she goes along. Now that everyone she needs help from is on the side of Glinda and Magic, Dorothy is now talking about taking the Wizard with her. RME. She even got the guy helping killed her by releasing the red painted guy. She is a walking disaster to all she encounters.

Edited February 25, 2017 by SimoneS

[Morrigan2575]

9 minutes ago, TroopinFairy said:

I thought that Lucas wanted to be put back on the cross. Afterwards Dorothy said said something along the lines like "Now you got your wish, I never helped you."

Her comment was in relation to something he said in the House, something about how she shouldn't have been there and essentially wishing he'd never met her because then she wouldn't be in his head/heart. 

It probably wasn't supposed to be that cold of a comment but, it really came across as a FU. I'm sure some will cheer her on but, I can't help but think most of that was her fault. Dorothy made the deal with the Wizard, use Sylvie to kill Glinda and go home. She made the decision to leave Sylvie and Lucas in the dust just so she could go home. Then she kind of acts like the betrayed woman when she finds out Lucas/Roan was aligned/married to Glinda and to top it off, Dorothy tried to kill Glinda in her sleep (very cold blooded). Then she acts all why are you doing this Lucas? 

[djinn]

Lady Ev being an android was a really surprising turn for me. That of course means she's not dead. Also, that makes the old King very, very interesting. He knew all along that his daughter was not alive. However, Langwidere showed emotions, seemed to fall in love, craved friendship. That raises all sorts of questions about androids. Also, what exactly is Jack? Is he still human? or should be classified a s a robot too?

The Tip/Ozma and witches stuff was quite interesting. West has a lot to be blamed for, but she is finally trying to make amends. East probably also sold out Oz for the Wizard.

I was pretty happy that Lucas was strung back up. He is useless. Dorothy has become the second Beast Forever, the first of course, being dear, old Wizard. I hope they are both kicked out of Oz soon. The Nahara, prison of the abject, and strange "red" man stuff was quite confusing. Who was the red guy? Why was he imprisoned? 

[NorthstarATL]

The last minute save for the Wizard was better than he deserved, and I agree that Dorothy is pretty selfish, and perhaps the least interesting character. Cool reveal about Langwidere being a robot/android and wearing masks over a mask. Poor Jack is just so earnest.

  I wish they'd gone the route of actually having a boy/man play Tip/Ozma when in that gender so as to make those scenes make more sense. I know the witches had just "woken up", but they could not sell me that they were seeing Tip as a "boy in a dress", rather than a "girl with a bad haircut". But, either way, Tip/Ozma made the sort of selfless sacrifice that a hero/heroine ought to to bring the witches together and to save West. I hope West realizes this. Plus, Ozma/Tip got a nice hairstyle and some expensive jewelry in the process!

  Looking forward to next week. I have really enjoyed this more than I thought I would.

Edited February 25, 2017 by NorthstarATL
I didn't remember that Ev is the city, not the Queen.

[Morrigan2575]

9 minutes ago, NorthstarATL said:

But, either way, Tip/Ozma made the sort of selfless sacrifice that a hero/heroine ought to to bring the witches together and to save West. I hope West realizes this. Plus, Ozma/Tip got a nice hairstyle and some expensive jewelry in the process!

What I liked about Tip/West was that they both made sacrifices for each other. West wanted Ozma to lead and demanded they do things her way. However, in the end she listened to Ozma/Tip and realized that what she was demanding would destroy Tip. So she gave in out of love/respect/caring and tried it Tip's way.  The hug Tip gave her when West accepted him for who he was, was really sweet.

Later we have Tip making the ultimate sacrifice, giving up what she wanted most/her true self in order to Save West.  I'm assuming it will last forever at this point but, Ozma/Tip chose the selfless path, duty/honor/loyalty. 

[AzureOwl]

42 minutes ago, djinn said:

The Nahara, prison of the abject, and strange "red" man stuff was quite confusing. Who was the red guy? Why was he imprisoned? 

According to Nahara, he has been in the Prison of the Abject longer than any of the witches. I'm inclined to believe that the Prison was built to keep him prisoner and that Mistress East simply re-purposed the place to hold all the other witches in it. Unlike all the other prisoners who were trapped in stone and mud, he was trapped inside a tree at the very heart of the prison. Also, there's the fact that West freed all the witches, even the dead and dying that she had no intention of taking along with her, but still left him bound inside the tree.

We have been assuming that the Abject in the prison's name was plural and referred to the witches. Now I am certain that the world is singular and the skinless man it The Abject the prison was meant to hold. 

I think he is meant to be the Big Bad of a hypothetical season 2 and the reason he is skinless is so they can cast whoever they want for season 2. They'll just have him regenerate his skin into looking like the new actor. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by AzureOwl

[Fireball]

I was all ready to come on here and complain about Lady/Queen Ev and her flawless face, and then they go and show that she's an android! I did not see that coming.

I liked that the Wizard used a Trojan Horse to get into Ev; maybe he's not totally stupid. I also liked the confrontation between Frank and Jane; it really shows what a fragile ego the Wizard has.

Dorothy is annoying me.  At least Toto didn't die saving her; I was really worried there.

I don't really care about Roan, or his conflicting emotions regarding Dorothy & Glinda.

At the moment, I'm routing for Tip & West.

One complaint where did Dorothy get the saddle? Last week she takes the wagon horse who only has a bridle and maybe a harness, but this week the horse magically has a saddle and fancy bridle. Maybe I'm misremembering, but I do not remember the horse having a saddle.

[thuganomics85]

So, The Wizard actually was prepared for a betrayal, and had a whole Trojan Horse-like scenario prepared, if/when Queen Ev turned on him.  I guess I shouldn't have underestimated him!  Although, he still almost got his ass shot up, but Dorothy just happened to pick the right time to show up with her new stone giants!

Did not see Queen Ev being a robot coming.  And explains the reasons for those masks, despite being gorgeous.  She had to hide from everyone that she isn't aging.  But that's just really pissed Jack off now, so he's off to try and kill The Wizard himself.

I get her life was on the line, but Dorothy just bailing and leaving Toto behind with Lucas/Roan just felt like a dick move.  I would like to think he wouldn't have truly hurt him, but you never know.  Not cool, Dorothy!  Not cool at all!  And damn!  She just left Lucas hanging! (sorry, I'll show myself out.)

Tip and West have rounded up a bunch of witches and are preparing for war!  This should be fun! 

[Senna]

Like others, I'm finding that I don't really care that much about Dorothy (and certainly not about Roan/Lucas) any more.  (Though I didn't think Dorothy was actually planning on killing Glinda in the first place?  I thought she was just going to try to talk her out of fighting the Wizard.  Of course, she did attack Glinda later, but that was after she was locked up and witnessed all the messed up things going on in Glinda's little world).  In that plotline, I am firmly Team Toto.

I have disliked Langwidere from the start, so my reaction upon her "death" was basically "What(Ev)er."  The robot reveal was pretty good though (or at least, cool to look at).  I don't really care about Jack trying to avenge her, either.

Now we come to the only people I still like in this show: Tip and Mistress West.  The scene where West agreed to do things Tip's way was very sweet (even though it didn't end up that way) ... and Tip looked awesome at the end.  So Dorothy can go back to Kansas, but Tip and West better be the ones to rule Oz.

ETA: As an aside, did the skinless man make anyone else think of Attack on Titan?  Just me then?

Edited February 25, 2017 by Senna

[djinn]

7 minutes ago, AzureOwl said:

We have been assuming that the Abject in the prison's name was plural and referred to the witches. Now I am certain that the world is singular and the skinless man it The Abject the prison was meant to hold. 

What you say makes a huge amount of sense. I hope the show gets a second season; it's fun. Then they can deal with Mr. Abject, who was freed by...... Dorothy, of course. By the way, I didn't get why West didn't free Nahara when she freed the other witches.

[Kuther2000]

2 minutes ago, djinn said:

What you say makes a huge amount of sense. I hope the show gets a second season; it's fun. Then they can deal with Mr. Abject, who was freed by...... Dorothy, of course. By the way, I didn't get why West didn't free Nahara when she freed the other witches.

Nahara was dying. Therefore not useful to her.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Kuther2000
Addition

[djinn]

Just now, Kuther2000 said:

Nahara was dying.

OK, that makes sense. But she must have freed the giants before she died.

[AzureOwl]

21 minutes ago, djinn said:

By the way, I didn't get why West didn't free Nahara when she freed the other witches.

19 minutes ago, Kuther2000 said:

Nahara was dying. Therefore not useful to her.

I get the impression that West did free her in the sense that she broke the spell keeping her in the prison and preventing her from doing magic. But Nahara was too far gone to more on her own so West just left her there to die.

[LittleIggy]

I don't like West probably because I don't like the actress. Her odd mouth distracts me!

[KingOfHearts]

I pretty much just hate Tip. She demands her own way, but at the same time she doesn't know what she wants. From what we saw of her time as a boy, she was being held captive by a crazy lady. She was desperate to escape. She doesn't seem to care about anyone but herself, yet she constantly accuses West of taking advantage of her. It was her in the first place who asked West to give her magic, and in this episode she blamed her for doing what what she asked for. Her change of heart at the end was abrupt and didn't make sense. Suddenly she cared? Okay? I feel like we're meant to be sympathetic to Tip just because it's a gender identity issue, regardless of how likable or unlikable her character is. When multitudes of innocent lives are at stake, her whining really isn't that valid.

Dorothy is equally selfish. I don't get her motivations. Her wanting to go home is not far-fetched, but she didn't mention Auntie Em or Uncle Henry once until seven episodes in. First, she wanted answers about her mother. After meeting the Wizard, she dropped that completely. She doesn't have Lucas or Sylvie any more, either, so what does she have? What's so important back home? I get that Oz is a terrible place and everything wants to kill her, but that's never verbalized. Other than with the Lucas angst, she's been a trooper. She was willing kill Glinda in cold blood, without questioning the Wizard's motives, just to meet her own needs. Now with the giants, she's igniting the very war she told Nahara she wanted to avoid. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[alaynestone]

This episode was great; Dorothy parts continue to be my least favorite however, which is sad because she's the supposed main character.  I'm not sure if we're necessarily supposed to root for her, but it's kinda hard when I could care less about her relationship problems with Lucas/Roan.  Plus, it seems like she only cares to help Oz if it'll benefit her getting home.

Langwidere being killed and then turning out to be a robot was... a surprise.  So, she's been an adult for the past 20 years?  How did that work?  Unless Jane created new bodies for her from the time she was supposed to be alive and a child to now..

I didn't really care much for her, but I felt really bad for Jack.  He's one of my favorite characters and is very likable. 

I like Jane - it's good to see more of her and her interaction with the Wizard was good.

Tip/Ozma and West stuff was my favorite part of the episode.  Ozma is my favorite character from the books, and Tip/Ozma's part of this show has held my interest the most since it's a part of the Oz series that's almost never shown in any media.  I loved the part when Tip revealed herself as the true Ozma to save West - I thought that was really good character development (even if it was a tad bit sudden).  Tip/Ozma does seem to be the uniting figure that Oz is going to need going forward.  Sidenote - She looked very good as the regal image of Ozma.

I was interested in what one of the witches said when Tip used magic and transformed as Ozma - something about "natural magic"?  Is that to mean that Tip didn't tap into East' powers, but her own?  

Spoiler

This would make sense since in the books Ozma inherently has magic.

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm glad Toto is OK, I actually worried Lucas might have killed him and that would have killed the show for me.

Yes!  I kept watching for him, hoping Lucas hadn't killed him.  Dorothy has lost me since she didn't even go back to check how Toto  was or if he had given his life to save her.

The part I liked best was the reveal that Langwidere is an android and that is why she always wears a mask.  So much potential for an interesting storyline for her, Jack and Jane.

West is growing on me but Tip still seems like a selfish child.

[Camera One]

I'm pretty much done with this show.  What a convoluted contrived mess.  It seems designed to shock and awe, through surprise or gore or violence.  Everyone is stupid through their lack of communication, and almost all the characters are so unlikeable.  Glinda is an idiot for not seeing the significance of Dorothy and for not trying to get her on side.  I liked Dorothy before but she keeps operating on limited information, doesn't seem interested in finding out more, and now she's causing a war instead of stopping one.  After treating each other like crap, I don't care for Dorothy/Lucas anymore.  Tip's petulance was annoying to watch, but I did like how she transformed into the Great Ozma.  

So much for being a "cardinal witch" when the other random witches can overpower you.  And why would Jane be pleading for the life of a robot?  When did West have time to free everyone from the Prison of the Abject?  And who exactly is controlling the Stone Giants now, Dorothy?  Uh, they're causing deaths as we speak by causing falling glass all over Ev.  

One episode for the war, for the various characters to meet in one place, for us to find out how Dorothy's mom got back to Kansas, for Dorothy to find a way home, for a flashback to how Tip ended up with Mombi, for an explanation of how Frank actually took over and why Glinda/East made a deal with him, etc.  Great pacing.  

On a positive note, this series does look amazing.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Camera One

[maczero]

Tip must have really missed "little Tip".  The look of joy on his/her face at being able to pee while standing had me cracking up.

I was a bit disappointed that Dorothy looked like she was about to abandon Toto after he risked his life to save hers.  At least she looked badass leading the stone giant.

[cooksdelight]

I got really mad at Dorothy leaving ToTo behind, and making him run to keep up with the horse. Poor dog, all he's ever done is protect and help her, and that's the thanks he gets?

I thought Oz/Frank was a goner there for a while.... Jane is really at his mercy, isn't she? Glad that big stone dude showed up when he did.

I laughed when West said "I've been called the wicked witch of the west"... HA!! Finally!! But she's not nearly as evil as her sister up north, who's supposed to be all sweetness and light.

This is going to sound weird, but West looks just like my oldest nephew. Same mouth, same expressions. Put a small beard on her, wipe off the makeup and cut her hair, she'd look just like him.

And the Scarecrow is back up in the field. I think Dorothy thought she'd turned back time by stabbing him in the same place, stringing him up and saying that he got his wish... he's never met her or she'd never helped him, etc.

The special effects are still amazing to me, and I imagine this is an expensive show to make. I hope it survives the cut.

Edited February 25, 2017 by cooksdelight

[NorthstarATL]

1 hour ago, maczero said:

Tip must have really missed "little Tip".  The look of joy on his/her face at being able to pee while standing had me cracking up.

LOL! being able to bring forth life may be all well and good, but nothing beats having the world as your toilet!

[sjohnson]

Not being a magical person, it's really hard to invest in the crusade for magic. The unfettered rule of the magical people may be a wonderful thing for them, of course. The show of course only invests in the magical people. The non-magical people must suffer justice. Jack loses his humanity for his attack on Ozma. And he must justly at least risk what life he has left (?) to atone for his attack on Langwidere. Lucas must be crucified. Most likely the Cowardly Lion Eamonn will get his in the finale.  

When Jane excuses her open contempt for Frank back in Kansas on the grounds that she was paying him, she was a typical boss. The problem with that is, she's not paid him a dime the whole time she's been in Oz. By her own standards of behavior, Frank doesn't owe her a damn thing, not even common decency. The show of course insists Jane is owed loyalty, and thus the Wizard is a low-life on that count too. Maybe they think of her as a fellow producer?

The eagerness of the witches to kill the woman who released them was to my eyes rather ugly. The spokeswitch was reaching for a reason to kill her and I thought really ended up meaning West deserved to die for being a junkie and a whore, even if that wasn't the literal wording. The show of course is entirely in favor of the restoration of the natural hierarchy in Oz, i.e., magic on top.

Tip/Ozma has no interest in how she, a helpless infant  survived nor in what kind of person Mombi really was, in what Mombi was doing. She does have a great interest in loving West, not just protecting her, and taking a throne she is unprepared for in a city she knows nothing about. All this seems more robotic than Jack to me, but the show of course believes it is liberatory. The re-transformation into Ozma and the awed declaration that this is truth, ostensibly about the identity of Tip with Ozma, didn't require that Tip go back to Ozma (complete with hideous hairstyle, sorry, my gut reaction!) Tip the boy could have put the flashback into the witches' heads. The objection that shapeshifting and sound waves are "base" magic (if I heard correctly) smelled of a contrived obstacle. The reappearance of Ozma at the moment of triumph says, visually, the Ozma is the real thing. The "truth" as the witch said. Of course that directly contradicts the pissing scene. But then, Ozma's dialogue with Jack also contradicted the show's claim Tip is the real thing. 

I'm going to have to rewatch, I've forgotten for the moment was Glinda, Dorothy and West (Ozma) want with all this marching about. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by sjohnson

[phoenics]

I love Toto - but damn - he's a POLICE DOG.  So if he has to die to protect Dorothy, so be it.  It's his job.  He dies in the line of duty.  If I was Dorothy I would have done the same.  Toto jumping in was her way to escape - what good would it be for her to stay there?    Toto is a great dog, but a dog nonetheless.  The part where the stupid heroine runs back into danger over a dog/pet is always the place in the horror movie where I am yelling at the screen.  Dorothy got the hell out - good for her.

And I don't think she was wrong for stringing Roan up.  The man just tried to kill her for something that wasn't her fault.  I'd have left him strung up too.  Dorothy basically just left him in the exact same position he was in when she found him.  Let Glinda help him down this time.  Problem solved for Roan.  He can fall back in love with his wife and hopefully end this stupid soapish triangle.  I really liked Dorothy/Roan, but this mess and the stupid writing decision to make him Glinda's husband ruined that.  And the whole "kill the one you love to be free" plot has been done to death in magical/alien shows.  It's trite and makes the characters involved look stupid.

My main irritation with Dorothy is over the giants.  They showed up and the Wizard gets saved from being offed - though why?  Why didn't the guards just shoot him anyway?  Problem solved.  But still - Dorothy's meddling totally made things worse.  Although the giant walking was a cool effect.  But if Nahara dies - who will make the giants stop?  Is Dorothy controlling them now?

It's pretty sad how West left Nahara in there - didn't even try to help her.  Couldn't she and Ozma have tried to heal her?  West seems just as keen to use the witches as weapons as Glinda - and that's sad.  West seemed to have more heart than that.  Oh well.

Dorothy in the books

Spoiler

went to see the Wicked Witch of the West to kill her - the Wizard told her to get her broomstick and Dorothy knew that she'd have to kill her to get it.  You could argue that she meant to try to get the broomstick, but was she prepared to kill her to get it?  In The Wiz, that wizard told Dorothy bluntly to kill the WWotW - she went to her lair - but was she really going to kill her?  Same here - it's not clear that Dorothy really went to kill Glinda - she only snapped on her after she noticed all the crazy.  In both The WoOz and The Wiz, Dorothy is manipulated by The Wizard(Wiz) to do his dirty work.  Same here.  I'm still not sure Dorothy intended to kill Glinda before she got there - I think she hoped she could convince her to stop the war.  I think the reason we forgive or don't hate on the Dorothy from the books/Wiz is because we spend most of our time with Dorothy in the story - whereas here - we don't seem to spend enough time with her and getting her PoV.

 

I really did NOT see Languidere's death and robot reveal coming.  And now I call foul.  I can see how her being a robot explains some of her weird behavior with Jack and her lack of understanding how to be a good friend, but she's up to date on kissing, lovemaking and seduction?  WTF?

I did think though - after Languidere got shot - that the show was admitting to being a one season series show, but then she got revealed as a robot and that theory went poof.

I do love watching this show - but I wish they'd figure out what role they want Dorothy to have - I am empathetic that she wants to go home - I don't understand people's complaints about her being a trooper (meaning not a basket case), or selfish (for wanting to go home).  She's trapped in a world apart from her own.  It's almost like being sucked onto an alien planet.  Nothing is yours and it's hard to just settle in and accept that you'll never see your family again.  And I don't blame her for being curious about her mother - who wouldn't be?  Besides, she wanted answers (which she had been seeking in the beginning of the show in the pilot - that's what she'd been doing sitting in the truck looking in the rear view mirror at her mother's trailer.  Only in the pilot she wasn't brave enough to just go talk to her mother then - until the part right before she got sucked up into the tornado).  Then she loses the only two anchors she had.  I actually think that if Dorothy goes home, she won't stay there.  Just like her mother - who appeared to be searching for a way to go back in the pilot.    

I think she's better when she's integrated with the other Oz characters and not "alone".  That does make it easier for her to go home without much heartache, but what the heck is the point?  Dorothy as a character deserves better.  

Are we ever going to find out why Dorothy has those dots in a circle on her hand?

Edited February 25, 2017 by saoirse
Talk about books and other media needs to be spoiler tagged

[Fireball]

12 hours ago, SimoneS said:

So Langwidere is an android. I wonder if she knows this. I hope that Jack does not give up on her. I don't think that this means that she does not have feelings or that she cannot one day since there is magic in Oz. I loved that Langwidere's soldiers were loyal to her to the end. Of course, Dorothy had to show up and ruin the Wizard's execution.

She said something to Jake about both of them being freaks, so I'm assuming she does know.

[MarySNJ]

Quote

I do love watching this show - but I wish they'd figure out what role they want Dorothy to have - I am empathetic that she wants to go home - I don't understand people's complaints about her being a trooper (meaning not a basket case), or selfish (for wanting to go home).  She's trapped in a world apart from her own.  It's almost like being sucked onto an alien planet.  Nothing is yours and it's hard to just settle in and accept that you'll never see your family again.  And I don't blame her for being curious about her mother - who wouldn't be?  Besides, she wanted answers (which she had been seeking in the beginning of the show in the pilot - that's what she'd been doing sitting in the truck looking in the rear view mirror at her mother's trailer.  Only in the pilot she wasn't brave enough to just go talk to her mother then - until the part right before she got sucked up into the tornado).  Then she loses the only two anchors she had.  I actually think that if Dorothy goes home, she won't stay there.  Just like her mother - who appeared to be searching for a way to go back in the pilot.    

I agree with this - and pretty much your whole post, @phoenics. Dorothy is a stranger in a strange land, who arrived there due to circumstances that were beyond her control. Just like everyone else in Oz, she's trying to survive and she makes decisions that have consequences both positive and negative.

Yes, she's being manipulated by the Wizard who has offered her the one thing she wants most. When she went to Glinda, I think her original intention was not to kill but to find a resolution that would forestall a war. But she saw that Glinda was willing to keep her pregnant disciple in captivity where she would have died had Dorothy not stood her ground. And Glinda was breeding an army of child soldiers to be sacrificed for the Cause. I don't blame Glinda for wanting to defeat the despotic ruler/Wizard but she chose to manipulate and use children, including one (Sylvie/Leith) who was dear to Dorothy. Putting aside the Lucas/Roan dynamic which happened without their knowledge of his true status, I think the condition of the languishing young witches is the last straw for Dorothy and what caused her to believe that Glinda was the villain and that she would kill her after all. 

As for the episode, I agree that it would have been stupid for Dorothy to run back into the cabin to get Toto when her ex-lover was trying to kill her. Seriously? Toto is probably the only untarnished hero in this story but as you say, he is a police dog doing his duty. Dorothy could have killed Roan but didn't. She tried to give him what he wanted by leaving him where she originally found him. 

 What I love about his show is that every character is grey. There are no real heroes, save Toto, and even the worst villain's actions at least have a cause that can be understood. Every action, regardless of intention, has consequences. Even those trying to do what they think is right, end up hurting someone they care about or being hurt by their choices. Poor Jack. 

I despise (love to hate) Frank and hope he gets his comeuppance... probably the worst fate would for him to be forcibly returned to Kansas where he was a nobody and lose the power he acquired in Oz.  It would be icing if Jane could return too and resume being his boss. 

[formerlyfreedom]

A reminder to discuss the episode here - if you want to talk about the books or other versions of the story, please take it to the Emerald City vs The Original Books, Various Movies, Etc. Spoiler topic.

[JustS]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

I love Toto - but damn - he's a POLICE DOG.  So if he has to die to protect Dorothy, so be it.  It's his job.  He dies in the line of duty.  If I was Dorothy I would have done the same.  Toto jumping in was her way to escape - what good would it be for her to stay there?    Toto is a great dog, but a dog nonetheless.  The part where the stupid heroine runs back into danger over a dog/pet is always the place in the horror movie where I am yelling at the screen.  Dorothy got the hell out - good for her.

And I don't think she was wrong for stringing Roan up.  The man just tried to kill her for something that wasn't her fault.  I'd have left him strung up too.  Dorothy basically just left him in the exact same position he was in when she found him.  Let Glinda help him down this time.  Problem solved for Roan.  He can fall back in love with his wife and hopefully end this stupid soapish triangle.  I really liked Dorothy/Roan, but this mess and the stupid writing decision to make him Glinda's husband ruined that.  And the whole "kill the one you love to be free" plot has been done to death in magical/alien shows.  It's trite and makes the characters involved look stupid.

My main irritation with Dorothy is over the giants.  They showed up and the Wizard gets saved from being offed - though why?  Why didn't the guards just shoot him anyway?  Problem solved.  But still - Dorothy's meddling totally made things worse.  Although the giant walking was a cool effect.  But if Nahara dies - who will make the giants stop?  Is Dorothy controlling them now?

It's pretty sad how West left Nahara in there - didn't even try to help her.  Couldn't she and Ozma have tried to heal her?  West seems just as keen to use the witches as weapons as Glinda - and that's sad.  West seemed to have more heart than that.  Oh well.

Dorothy in the books

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went to see the Wicked Witch of the West to kill her - the Wizard told her to get her broomstick and Dorothy knew that she'd have to kill her to get it.  You could argue that she meant to try to get the broomstick, but was she prepared to kill her to get it?  In The Wiz, that wizard told Dorothy bluntly to kill the WWotW - she went to her lair - but was she really going to kill her?  Same here - it's not clear that Dorothy really went to kill Glinda - she only snapped on her after she noticed all the crazy.  In both The WoOz and The Wiz, Dorothy is manipulated by The Wizard(Wiz) to do his dirty work.  Same here.  I'm still not sure Dorothy intended to kill Glinda before she got there - I think she hoped she could convince her to stop the war.  I think the reason we forgive or don't hate on the Dorothy from the books/Wiz is because we spend most of our time with Dorothy in the story - whereas here - we don't seem to spend enough time with her and getting her PoV.

 

I really did NOT see Languidere's death and robot reveal coming.  And now I call foul.  I can see how her being a robot explains some of her weird behavior with Jack and her lack of understanding how to be a good friend, but she's up to date on kissing, lovemaking and seduction?  WTF?

I did think though - after Languidere got shot - that the show was admitting to being a one season series show, but then she got revealed as a robot and that theory went poof.

I do love watching this show - but I wish they'd figure out what role they want Dorothy to have - I am empathetic that she wants to go home - I don't understand people's complaints about her being a trooper (meaning not a basket case), or selfish (for wanting to go home).  She's trapped in a world apart from her own.  It's almost like being sucked onto an alien planet.  Nothing is yours and it's hard to just settle in and accept that you'll never see your family again.  And I don't blame her for being curious about her mother - who wouldn't be?  Besides, she wanted answers (which she had been seeking in the beginning of the show in the pilot - that's what she'd been doing sitting in the truck looking in the rear view mirror at her mother's trailer.  Only in the pilot she wasn't brave enough to just go talk to her mother then - until the part right before she got sucked up into the tornado).  Then she loses the only two anchors she had.  I actually think that if Dorothy goes home, she won't stay there.  Just like her mother - who appeared to be searching for a way to go back in the pilot.    

I think she's better when she's integrated with the other Oz characters and not "alone".  That does make it easier for her to go home without much heartache, but what the heck is the point?  Dorothy as a character deserves better.  

Are we ever going to find out why Dorothy has those dots in a circle on her hand?

Totally agree about Dorothy leaving Lucas/Roan tied up. He did try to kill her and previously threatened to. As for Toto, you are absolutely right. He's a police dog. I was glad to see him attack Lucas to protect Dorothy. I don't blame her for getting g out of there as quickly as possible. She knew Toto would keep up. 

[sjohnson]

To be clear, Dorothy could have ridden the horse out of there, leaving the wounded Rowan (isn't Roan one syllable?) safely behind. 

Crucifying him means a slow death. It's torture. She can't be planning on him being lucky enough to be rescued again. 

Personally I'm not sure he should be tortured to death if he had succeeded in killing her, much less failing. The show of course delights in his torment as Dorothy's life is worth vastly more than his, so much so even a mere *attempted* murder is an outrage against, well, the show's values at least.

[djinn]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

I think she's better when she's integrated with the other Oz characters and not "alone".  That does make it easier for her to go home without much heartache, but what the heck is the point?  Dorothy as a character deserves better.

I agree about Dorothy. I think the problem is that the first few episodes were quite Dorothy-heavy (Langwidere wasn't even introduced until well into the season) and we had her POV, but then the show started to explore other characters and their motivations. This show is very much an ensemble, it doesn't have Dorothy as the central character. That is one of the problems with this last episode. Having Dorothy alone results in her "voice" being lost, so we don't know, and haven't known for a while, what exactly she's thinking now or what her plan is. Personally, I am quite OK with Lucas being strung up, because he remembered everything, he knew who he was and what he wanted, he was a willing part of Glinda's war on the Wizard, but by extremely questionable methods. However I don't know how Dorothy came to know that Nahara controlled the giants and what she wanted to achieve by freeing them. At this point we are assuming that she is still helping the Wizard; but we'll only know for sure in the next episode.

[theatremouse]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

And why would Jane be pleading for the life of a robot?

I think because Frank doesn't know about the robotness, and Jane was hoping to prevent him finding that out? Although I'm not sure why it'd matter. But that's my best guess.

[Fireball]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

 And why would Jane be pleading for the life of a robot?  

8 minutes ago, theatremouse said:

I think because Frank doesn't know about the robotness, and Jane was hoping to prevent him finding that out? Although I'm not sure why it'd matter. But that's my best guess.

I think part of it's like Theatremouse said Jane wanted to keep Lady Ev being an android a secret, but I also think it's that Lady Ev is Jane's creation and Jane didn't want Lady Ev hurt/destroyed.

[peacheslatour]

Well I'm Team Toto. I don't care what happens to the rest of them.

[Terrafamilia]

6 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

I thought Oz/Frank was a goner there for a while

Oz/Frank...I just now got that. Deliberate or coincidence?

[cooksdelight]

2 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

Oz/Frank...I just now got that. Deliberate or coincidence?

Taking this to book/previous movie thread.

[phoenics]

3 hours ago, sjohnson said:

To be clear, Dorothy could have ridden the horse out of there, leaving the wounded Rowan (isn't Roan one syllable?) safely behind. 

Crucifying him means a slow death. It's torture. She can't be planning on him being lucky enough to be rescued again. 

Personally I'm not sure he should be tortured to death if he had succeeded in killing her, much less failing. The show of course delights in his torment as Dorothy's life is worth vastly more than his, so much so even a mere *attempted* murder is an outrage against, well, the show's values at least.

I'm not sure what option Dorothy had other than tying him up when he was hellbent on killing her.  It's not clear from the narrative whether he was still able to move around, etc..  

2 hours ago, djinn said:

I agree about Dorothy. I think the problem is that the first few episodes were quite Dorothy-heavy (Langwidere wasn't even introduced until well into the season) and we had her POV, but then the show started to explore other characters and their motivations. This show is very much an ensemble, it doesn't have Dorothy as the central character. That is one of the problems with this last episode. Having Dorothy alone results in her "voice" being lost, so we don't know, and haven't known for a while, what exactly she's thinking now or what her plan is. Personally, I am quite OK with Lucas being strung up, because he remembered everything, he knew who he was and what he wanted, he was a willing part of Glinda's war on the Wizard, but by extremely questionable methods. However I don't know how Dorothy came to know that Nahara controlled the giants and what she wanted to achieve by freeing them. At this point we are assuming that she is still helping the Wizard; but we'll only know for sure in the next episode.

Exactly - we've completely lost Dorothy's PoV - we only get to see her react to things - we never get to see her talk about what happened.  Hell - give us a voice over, lol.  Every other character gets someone to bounce things off of - but the moment Dorothy lost Lucas/Silvie she lost her voice.  Totally agree.

[attica]

4 hours ago, Fireball said:

So Langwidere is an android. I wonder if she knows this.

If, as Jane says, she wears masks to obscure a never-aging face, I'd say she does. Which may be a reason she was calling the Wizard's bluff and suggesting to her army they should resist even under threat of 'death.'

Dramatic compression is a fine thing, but couldn't they have spared a few minutes to feed and water the horse and Toto?

If I were Dorothy, I'd certainly have the newly freed stone giant give me a lift to my destination. Even at the expense of looking badass by preceding it on foot.

[peacheslatour]

8 minutes ago, attica said:

If, as Jane says, she wears masks to obscure a never-aging face, I'd say she does. Which may be a reason she was calling the Wizard's bluff and suggesting to her army they should resist even under threat of 'death.'

Dramatic compression is a fine thing, but couldn't they have spared a few minutes to feed and water the horse and Toto?

If I were Dorothy, I'd certainly have the newly freed stone giant give me a lift to my destination. Even at the expense of looking badass by preceding it on foot.

When we first saw her without a mask I was like "Oh, there's nothing wrong with her face." Then when he took off her face I was like o_O.

[Mojeaux]

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

I love Toto - but damn - he's a POLICE DOG.  So if he has to die to protect Dorothy, so be it.  It's his job.  He dies in the line of duty.  If I was Dorothy I would have done the same.  Toto jumping in was her way to escape - what good would it be for her to stay there?    Toto is a great dog, but a dog nonetheless.  The part where the stupid heroine runs back into danger over a dog/pet is always the place in the horror movie where I am yelling at the screen.  Dorothy got the hell out - good for her.

Thank you!

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

And I don't think she was wrong for stringing Roan up.  The man just tried to kill her for something that wasn't her fault.  I'd have left him strung up too.  Dorothy basically just left him in the exact same position he was in when she found him.  Let Glinda help him down this time.  Problem solved for Roan.  He can fall back in love with his wife and hopefully end this stupid soapish triangle.  I really liked Dorothy/Roan, but this mess and the stupid writing decision to make him Glinda's husband ruined that.  And the whole "kill the one you love to be free" plot has been done to death in magical/alien shows.  It's trite and makes the characters involved look stupid.

That, too. I thought that was especially inventive and I liked it. No cliches on that protagonist.

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

I am empathetic that she wants to go home - I don't understand people's complaints about her being a trooper (meaning not a basket case), or selfish (for wanting to go home).  She's trapped in a world apart from her own.  It's almost like being sucked onto an alien planet.  Nothing is yours and it's hard to just settle in and accept that you'll never see your family again.  And I don't blame her for being curious about her mother - who wouldn't be?  Besides, she wanted answers (which she had been seeking in the beginning of the show in the pilot - that's what she'd been doing sitting in the truck looking in the rear view mirror at her mother's trailer.  Only in the pilot she wasn't brave enough to just go talk to her mother then - until the part right before she got sucked up into the tornado).  Then she loses the only two anchors she had.  I actually think that if Dorothy goes home, she won't stay there.  Just like her mother - who appeared to be searching for a way to go back in the pilot. 

Yeah. I empathize with her motivations. She's human. Selfish, selfless, stupid, clever, scared, brave, confused, clear-headed. Human.

4 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Yes, she's being manipulated by the Wizard who has offered her the one thing she wants most. When she went to Glinda, I think her original intention was not to kill but to find a resolution that would forestall a war. But she saw that Glinda was willing to keep her pregnant disciple in captivity where she would have died had Dorothy not stood her ground. And Glinda was breeding an army of child soldiers to be sacrificed for the Cause. I don't blame Glinda for wanting to defeat the despotic ruler/Wizard but she chose to manipulate and use children, including one (Sylvie/Leith) who was dear to Dorothy. Putting aside the Lucas/Roan dynamic which happened without their knowledge of his true status, I think the condition of the languishing young witches is the last straw for Dorothy and what caused her to believe that Glinda was the villain and that she would kill her after all. 

Totally agree. Cold and detached Glinda who wants to kill the Wizard is fine. Cold, detached, and child-witch-trafficking Glinda who wants to use children to kill the Wizard...not so much.

4 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

What I love about his show is that every character is grey.

YES YES YES!!!

So I had lots to say, but @Phoenics and @MarySNJ said it better than I could've.

The twists and turns all surprised me in pleasing ways. I like being surprised. And morally ambiguous characters.

[attica]

3 hours ago, sjohnson said:

isn't Roan one syllable?

When it's a descriptor of a horse's markings, yes. When it's a name of a person, nope.  (Think of Roanoke, VA. The 'Roan' part is pronounced with 2 syllables.)

[Raja]

34 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

When we first saw her without a mask I was like "Oh, there's nothing wrong with her face." Then when he took off her face I was like o_O.

I was thinking it had to be something cultural like in Arabia or Afghanistan perhaps just for the Crown Princess/Queen. At the same time telling myself  while a writer might no TV producer would go there 

[Writing Wrongs]

17 hours ago, Fireball said:

At least Toto didn't die saving her; I was really worried there.

That's all I could think of. I was like, "Did he kill Toto?" and then Toto ran after his ride home and I was so relieved. I kept help wondering what he thinks about being in this weird world.

I'm confused about Jack and Ev. Did they have sex? Can robots/androids have sex?

Edited February 25, 2017 by Writing Wrongs

[attica]

4 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

Can robots/androids have sex?

If they can't, they'd never be built. See: every robot movie/show ever.

[LittleIggy]

Something has been bugging me: Why does Tip have a broad, working class accent when she apparently was raised in seclusion by Mombi, who didn't have such an accent? 

[peacheslatour]

42 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

Something has been bugging me: Why does Tip have a broad, working class accent when she apparently was raised in seclusion by Mombi, who didn't have such an accent? 

Good question.