S01.E03: Chapter Three: Body Double

[Affogato]

11 hours ago, ZoloftBlob said:

At last check, it's been acknowledged that Polly is a real person who was dating Frank and who is currently at some sort of rehab or mental facility. People at the school like Cheryl and Archie have acknowledged that Polly was a real person and not a figment of Betty's insanity.

Thanks, I wasn't sure. Still, the mother controlling her daughter's duo personas with shades of lipstick is intriguing, too bad....

[starri]

More Ethel please. Shannon Purser is every bit as lovable here as she was on Stranger Things, and the show would be wise to capitalize on that. 

I'm not sure how I feel about Dilton the militia member. 

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, ZoloftBlob said:

OK. I cut it because I honestly felt I was revealing way too much of what life is really like in a small mostly white rural town. Here goes.

And I will admit to a twinge of racism - the black football player at a *small* rural school is openly allowed to have a fuck book and publicly humiliate a coven of white girls? Forgive me but unless he's the quarterback - and he isn't because his daddy made sophomore theoretically sixteen white boy Archie the team starting QB - in a predominately white town where the black town mayor got racist hatemail to where her daughter is openly chiding the white students, no I really don't believe the townies are all "well boys will be boys!" over this. Not over a kid who won't be going to the NFL. Kids in small schools like this is supposed to be don't get scouted and don't get scholarships to schools that propel athletes into the NFL. So no, I don't believe Chuck as a black student at that school would be allowed to fuck all the white girls and merrily spread around pictures of them as he publically slut shames them. The school athletic program isn't advanced enough to justify allowing him to wave his dong and buy off the parents, and small towns full of white people don't like black kids screwing their daughters.

This show would be better if it didn't present the non white characters in a weirdly whitewashed fashion. If Chuck was white, I could buy all the white townfolks winking and smirking at all the silly white sluts who spread for a jock, but Chuck isn't white. Hell, all any of these girls have to do in most small American towns is say it wasn't consensual and Chuck would be in jail.

Not to mention there is no way that the black principal would let that go on since even a hint of that would look bad on him and likely cost him his job.

On another note, Chuck wakes up handcuffed and he's not pissed, trying to break out, threatening them and pretty much calling them all kinds of names for this? At least then you could justify dark Betty and that weird waterboarding thing she did.  

[rho]

11 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I was into the idea of Betty/Jughead before they even had a scene together simply because they're my two faves. And now that they have had scenes I can say that I am firmly Team Betty/Jughead. Love them together. Jughead has better chem with Archie though, but they aren't going to go there.

I loved all of your post but I'm SO on board with Juggy/Betty. I squealed every time she called him Juggy, they already have nicknames!!! It's 100 times better than Archie with anyone and as much as I like Betty with Veronica, I don't think it's worth investing in on this show. The kiss in the pilot was supposed to be mocking salacious girl kisses but it kind of incepted itself since they keep using it in the ads to bring in viewers. Doesn't look like they're gonna go there in a serious way.

Maybe this is because I was watching this at work and occasionally interrupted with actual important stuff, but I don't understand the maple syrup instagram filter thing or the sex book. As I understood it, the football team was rating girls they slept with which is undeniably shitty (and also wholly unrealistic - it's 2017, where did they even find a composition book, this should be an email thread or Google doc, and are they really sitting around and tallying everything up? Sounds like a great drunk idea that they'd give up on once the math kicks in, I just have so many questions about the burn book...) but probably not worth boiling someone alive. I got the impression Jason and Polly were an actual couple, not someone he slept with just for points. Is this just Chuck's random pastime when the other guys share their sex life with him? How come Archie doesn't know about the book, given he's such a hot commodity for the varsity team?

And I hate to say this but I loathe Josie. She could have been a really cool character but I think she's just a bad actress. I know her role is important and could easily elevate the show but the delivery is like a bad monologue assignment. The whole charade feels really forced and condescending.

Archie continues to be the worst. It's like they gave him every annoying trope: tortured artist, misunderstood jock, teacher's secret lover, abs. It's a shame because the actor is super charming but then he goes in with that "you don't understand my music" bullshit when he literally picked up a pawn shop guitar like last week.

My point is, does Riverdale want to be edgy or campy? Right now it's giving me a Veronica Mars Lite vibe. It's a little quirky with Jughead's VO and the vintage/hipster aesthetic and it's trying desperately to be edgy but mostly it's only brushing the surface of actual issues like racism and misogyny, almost like a bad after-school special with a dash of nostalgia. I don't get what all the critics are RAVING about....

[ZoloftBlob]

Are the critics raving?

I've mostly been telling people its like watching fanfiction come to life :)

[laschifosavita]

1 hour ago, ZoloftBlob said:

OK. I cut it because I honestly felt I was revealing way too much of what life is really like in a small mostly white rural town. Here goes.

And I will admit to a twinge of racism - the black football player at a *small* rural school is openly allowed to have a fuck book and publicly humiliate a coven of white girls? Forgive me but unless he's the quarterback - and he isn't because his daddy made sophomore theoretically sixteen white boy Archie the team starting QB - in a predominately white town where the black town mayor got racist hatemail to where her daughter is openly chiding the white students, no I really don't believe the townies are all "well boys will be boys!" over this. Not over a kid who won't be going to the NFL. Kids in small schools like this is supposed to be don't get scouted and don't get scholarships to schools that propel athletes into the NFL. So no, I don't believe Chuck as a black student at that school would be allowed to fuck all the white girls and merrily spread around pictures of them as he publically slut shames them. The school athletic program isn't advanced enough to justify allowing him to wave his dong and buy off the parents, and small towns full of white people don't like black kids screwing their daughters.

This show would be better if it didn't present the non white characters in a weirdly whitewashed fashion. If Chuck was white, I could buy all the white townfolks winking and smirking at all the silly white sluts who spread for a jock, but Chuck isn't white. Hell, all any of these girls have to do in most small American towns is say it wasn't consensual and Chuck would be in jail.

I think this depends somewhat on the region.  Plop Riverdale in Ohio or PA and the plot would play decently.  Football schools in the northern and Appalachian states have their own weird cultures.  If they play the right position, even if it seems like a completely unimportant one, they can get away with murder at a school that has a reputation for having players go on to the NFL.

I totally agree that this is something that the show should have spelled out for us, though.

[callie lee 29]

21 hours ago, laschifosavita said:

I think this depends somewhat on the region.  Plop Riverdale in Ohio or PA and the plot would play decently.  Football schools in the northern and Appalachian states have their own weird cultures.  If they play the right position, even if it seems like a completely unimportant one, they can get away with murder at a school that has a reputation for having players go on to the NFL.

I totally agree that this is something that the show should have spelled out for us, though.

Yeah, I can see this flying, to some degree, where I'm  at. A great football player + well respected coaches son + white boys doing the same thing = yeah, boys will be boys. Maybe they need to be told that's not what you should do, but it'll  probably be okay as long as you keep winning. Also, I think that its telling we only saw a part of the book. With books like that, I think typically the untouchable girls aren't  listed/approached. Right now, the only untouchable girl we've  seen is Cheryl. Betty is cute but not a-list. Veronica is to new. Josie isn't really a fleshed out character. Nothing  thus  far tells us that Polly was a-list.

 

That being said, I'm pissed they made Chuck a jerk. He was my favorite in the comics!!!!

Edited February 12, 2017 by callie lee 29

[abhi]

I really don't get the hate that Archie is getting. He hasn't been given any substantial story line like the other characters have been give yet. And the actor, in my opinion, has been doing quite good with whatever the material he has been given. And no, he doesn't look 30 and has good chemistry with the rest of the casts. Is it because he is supposedly at the center of a love triangle?

I like the show but i think the character development for all the male members have taken a backseat in the initial episodes. I hope it is corrected later on because it doesn't do the show any good. The worst thing about the show is Jughead's narration. Man, can be it more jarring.

[ZoloftBlob]

Quote

I think this depends somewhat on the region.  Plop Riverdale in Ohio or PA and the plot would play decently.  Football schools in the northern and Appalachian states have their own weird cultures.  If they play the right position, even if it seems like a completely unimportant one, they can get away with murder at a school that has a reputation for having players go on to the NFL.

I understand where you're going but *that* sort of set up is at odds with the setting. No one in Riverdale looks blue collar at all. All the kids look polished and everyone is so open minded and spot on with their trend setting. Why of course guys on the football team are pretty openly consorting with the openly gay walking stereotype and even wanting to do bisexual stuff and of course no one on the football mutters faggot or beats the shit out of anyone. So everyone has cell phones and the internet and is socially conscious and Veronica of New York City really should be losing her mind  from boredom and ...

I know they are doing certain things because of the comic allure - the wearing of letter jackets, the intentional old style cheerleading - at such a progressively minded school, why aren't there boys in the squad and why isn't there more acrobatic tumbling? Oh right, because we're also pretending the 1950s never ended. If they were playing Riverdale as a backward cow town, it would sorta work, but everyone is just so hipster... Its jarring and it doesn't make sense.

Quote

Still, the mother controlling her daughter's duo personas with shades of lipstick is intriguing, too bad....

Oh I totally agree but while I could see Cheryl taking great delight in Betty being utterly batshit not realizing she is also Polly - and they have alluded to Polly being somewhat not real by how Betty is never allowed to see Polly by her crazy mom but the whole town/school would need to be on how they were all to play along with Betty's delusion about "Polly". All the girls in the "we were maple syrup shamed" circle, Jughead, Archie, especially Archie, would have to be playing along with Betty's delusion.

[dirtypop90]

i...don't...like....betty...so it is very weird for me to see all the praise she is getting. lol I just feel like she's being forced on me and didn't find the actress convincing as Bad betty. I literally started laughing as she was walking out to chuck by the pool, and then was furious because I thought betty took it way way too far. Crazy as it may be I find myself really interested in Cheryl and I like that for w/e reason she is friends with Josie and kind of also archie. Give me more cheryl and josie show.

[starri]

5 hours ago, ZoloftBlob said:

I understand where you're going but *that* sort of set up is at odds with the setting. No one in Riverdale looks blue collar at all.

It doesn't need to be Friday Night Lights.  Look at what happened with Brock Turner.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Every time Archie talks about "my music" it reminds me of Ross from 'Friends' and his shitty "music".

[Mabinogia]

7 hours ago, ZoloftBlob said:

I know they are doing certain things because of the comic allure - the wearing of letter jackets, the intentional old style cheerleading - at such a progressively minded school, why aren't there boys in the squad and why isn't there more acrobatic tumbling? Oh right, because we're also pretending the 1950s never ended. If they were playing Riverdale as a backward cow town, it would sorta work, but everyone is just so hipster... Its jarring and it doesn't make sense.

I'm having a really hard time trying to understand what vibe the show is trying to give. If you turn off the volume and look at it, it's very 50s, the high pony, the letterman jackets, etc, but with the volume on they talk like they are from Gossip Girl and the plots are...well CW plots I guess. The whole thing is really disjointed. I like the visual because it's pretty. I don't like teenagers in 2017 referencing Capote and old movies and all this other stuff that even their parents, who grew up in the 70s wouldn't have referenced. If just one of them, say Juggy or the token gay kid, were like that, okay, that's someone trying to stand out, but to have everyone else immediately get the references makes me roll my eyes. These kids grew up on reality TV and the Kardashians.

I grew up out of my era. I was in school through the 80s and I listened to Big Band music. But if I started talking about Glenn Miller my peers would look at me like I was nuts, so it doesn't ring true to me that every kid in this backward 1950s town gets all these old, random references. Unless they are going for some kind of Pleasantville thing where, although they are from the present they choose to live like they are in the past? IDK

[ZoloftBlob]

Quote

I grew up out of my era. I was in school through the 80s and I listened to Big Band music.

I actually wonder if this was a 1980s thing, as I also remember big band music and Glenn Miller being a sorta geeky affectation.

*Note - my parents were mostly pleased to discuss Glenn Miller but I get your point. I suspect we're about the same age and my same age and younger coworkers didn't catch the Capote references. But then, some of them had no idea Archie comics existed either so...

[peachmangosteen]

13 hours ago, ZoloftBlob said:

And I will admit to a twinge of racism - the black football player at a *small* rural school is openly allowed to have a fuck book and publicly humiliate a coven of white girls? Forgive me but unless he's the quarterback - and he isn't because his daddy made sophomore theoretically sixteen white boy Archie the team starting QB - in a predominately white town where the black town mayor got racist hatemail to where her daughter is openly chiding the white students, no I really don't believe the townies are all "well boys will be boys!" over this. Not over a kid who won't be going to the NFL. Kids in small schools like this is supposed to be don't get scouted and don't get scholarships to schools that propel athletes into the NFL. So no, I don't believe Chuck as a black student at that school would be allowed to fuck all the white girls and merrily spread around pictures of them as he publically slut shames them. The school athletic program isn't advanced enough to justify allowing him to wave his dong and buy off the parents, and small towns full of white people don't like black kids screwing their daughters.

I agree with this but at the same time, and some others have already mentioned this, I can actually see this happening in my kinda racist, small rural-ish town. In fact, one of the black football players was harassing my neighbor and the school didn't do shit. 

11 hours ago, rho said:

My point is, does Riverdale want to be edgy or campy? Right now it's giving me a Veronica Mars Lite vibe.

It is so Veronica Mars Lite. And I agree that the tone in general is really disjointed. I mean the show is a hot mess, it really is, but for me it's a very enjoyable and fun and interesting hot mess.

10 hours ago, abhi said:

I really don't get the hate that Archie is getting. He hasn't been given any substantial story line like the other characters have been give yet. And the actor, in my opinion, has been doing quite good with whatever the material he has been given. And no, he doesn't look 30 and has good chemistry with the rest of the casts. Is it because he is supposedly at the center of a love triangle?

I think it's just because some others don't agree and think he looks old/has no chem with anyone/isn't a good actor, etc. I don't hate him, but I find him by far the least interesting of almost every character, including most of the adults and recurring characters.

[Tiger]

21 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I agree with this but at the same time, and some others have already mentioned this, I can actually see this happening in my kinda racist, small rural-ish town. In fact, one of the black football players was harassing my neighbor and the school didn't do shit. 

It is so Veronica Mars Lite. And I agree that the tone in general is really disjointed. I mean the show is a hot mess, it really is, but for me it's a very enjoyable and fun and interesting hot mess.

I think it's just because some others don't agree and think he looks old/has no chem with anyone/isn't a good actor, etc. I don't hate him, but I find him by far the least interesting of almost every character, including most of the adults and recurring characters.

The sad reality is that star athletes actors, musicians, and politicans, regardless of race and/or gender, can literally get away with murder because our society idolizes these folks.

[Dobian]

So this Betty is MPD, huh?  This should be interesting.  Maybe in future episodes she can become Jughead or Moose.

Sexed-up Betty and Veronica seducing the football player in the hot tub, another example of this show making it impossible for you to suspend disbelief that these are supposed to be 15 year olds.

Cheryl is for me easily the most interesting character to watch so far.

I agree that Archie turns into a way better character when he's hanging out with the Pussycats and enjoying his love for music instead of being mopey soap opera boy.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Dobian

[WhosThatGirl]

Well.. I don't know why we are surprised Archie looks like he's 30 instead of the 15 year old he is. His dad is Dylan McKay. The oldest high schooler ever. 

[abhi]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think it's just because some others don't agree and think he looks old/has no chem with anyone/isn't a good actor, etc. I don't hate him, but I find him by far the least interesting of almost every character, including most of the adults and recurring characters.

I guess we can agree to disagree after all we are all biased towards characters depending on our own viewpoints and experiences.

[laschifosavita]

15 hours ago, ZoloftBlob said:

I understand where you're going but *that* sort of set up is at odds with the setting. No one in Riverdale looks blue collar at all. All the kids look polished and everyone is so open minded and spot on with their trend setting. Why of course guys on the football team are pretty openly consorting with the openly gay walking stereotype and even wanting to do bisexual stuff and of course no one on the football mutters faggot or beats the shit out of anyone. So everyone has cell phones and the internet and is socially conscious and Veronica of New York City really should be losing her mind  from boredom and ...

I know they are doing certain things because of the comic allure - the wearing of letter jackets, the intentional old style cheerleading - at such a progressively minded school, why aren't there boys in the squad and why isn't there more acrobatic tumbling? Oh right, because we're also pretending the 1950s never ended. If they were playing Riverdale as a backward cow town, it would sorta work, but everyone is just so hipster... Its jarring and it doesn't make sense.

I think we're picturing a different setting.  Rural doesn't necessarily mean backward cow town.  The big spread of progressiveness with some people being very socially conscious and others very regressive is pretty familiar to me.  Yeah, there would be some people in dirty flannels, but that isn't very CW unless it's Supernatural.  There can also be a pretty big variation in how much rural area there is surrounding the town and what the economic spread looks like.

I'm hoping that it is too disturbing post-Paterno for people to still be using this phrase, but Chucks were common enough that we used to say that he "was going to Penn State."

[Neurochick]

8 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I'm having a really hard time trying to understand what vibe the show is trying to give. If you turn off the volume and look at it, it's very 50s, the high pony, the letterman jackets, etc, but with the volume on they talk like they are from Gossip Girl and the plots are...well CW plots I guess. The whole thing is really disjointed. I like the visual because it's pretty. I don't like teenagers in 2017 referencing Capote and old movies and all this other stuff that even their parents, who grew up in the 70s wouldn't have referenced. If just one of them, say Juggy or the token gay kid, were like that, okay, that's someone trying to stand out, but to have everyone else immediately get the references makes me roll my eyes. These kids grew up on reality TV and the Kardashians.

I think the show is going for a David Lynch/Twin Peaks vibe.  However when Twin Peaks and even earlier, Blue Velvet, came out, the 1950-ish vibe worked because certain things that changed the world hadn't yet taken off (Internet/Social Media/Reality TV). But today, it seems so jarring to see a 1950's vibe with 2017 technology like smartphones, computers and social media.

[ElectricCityy]

I am really trying with this show but something is not clicking. I like many of the actors but this is just so dull. The grey, washed-out cinematography isn't helping matters either. Can we get some sunshine? I feel like the look should be more vibrant. It's based on a comic for crying out loud.

Count me in as not digging Josie and the Pussycats. They need a better songwriting staff.

[Bill1978]

I found this episode an improvement over the other 3, for me this series is getting better with each episode. Which means of course it's gonna disappoint me with who killed Jason. I've also decided that I'm going to pretend that these characters are 18 years old and jus stuck in high school forever. As a high school teacher the way the characters act, speak etc. is far too mature for 15 year olds, but I can accept it for 18 year olds. Just. Although I could believe Dilton was 15 years old, but maybe that is the scout uniform helping him to look young.

This episode seems to have moved away from its initial Dawson's Creek vibe and moved into Veronica Mars territory which isn't a bad thing. Hopefully by the end of the season it will have found it's own vibe.

I am sure that there is an interesting character somewhere in Archie, but my god the storylines they are giving his character are so mind numbing dull that it is hard to care about his need to do whatever it is that he is doing. And placing him into the Josie plotline, doesn't help because I find Josie so insufferable for some reason. The other Pussycats seem fine, but the personality of his show's Josie is not the Josie I know.

I had read the spoiler that Betty boils someone and I was worried about where this show may be heading, so when it came out it was just a hot tub I breathed a sigh of relief. Really not sure why I decided that if the spoiler was true it involved Betty putting someone tied to a stake and placed into a large black cauldron. Going to resist looking at any more spoilers mainly because I want to solve the mystery of Jason myself. I think the show wants us to think it was Betty's Mum after this episode, but she is far far too obvious. Unstable yes, killer no.

I may have cheered out loud when Dilton revealed that he saw Miss Grundy's car at the river on 4th of July. While I have began to love to hate Cheryl and enjoy seeing her, the same can't be said for the manipulative Miss Grundy. If she is so damn concerned about her career, she didn't have to stop to pick up Archie on that hot day. I really want her to get caught and suffer the consequences of her action.

Point of clarification needed: In the comics is Ethel Jughead's girlfriend? Or just someone who pines after Jughead?

[Mabinogia]

28 minutes ago, Bill1978 said:

Although I could believe Dilton was 15 years old, but maybe that is the scout uniform helping him to look young.

I find it impossible to believe that the rest of them are supposed to be the same age as Dilton. Dilton looks 15. The rest of them look about 25. They act far more like pretentious college kids than small town teenagers.

PS I hope Dilton brings Grundy DOWN! She needs to go away.

[Danny Franks]

11 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I'm having a really hard time trying to understand what vibe the show is trying to give. If you turn off the volume and look at it, it's very 50s, the high pony, the letterman jackets, etc, but with the volume on they talk like they are from Gossip Girl and the plots are...well CW plots I guess. The whole thing is really disjointed. I like the visual because it's pretty. I don't like teenagers in 2017 referencing Capote and old movies and all this other stuff that even their parents, who grew up in the 70s wouldn't have referenced. If just one of them, say Juggy or the token gay kid, were like that, okay, that's someone trying to stand out, but to have everyone else immediately get the references makes me roll my eyes. These kids grew up on reality TV and the Kardashians.

It seems like a pastiche of Americana. I get the vibe that Archie comics are forever set in the idyllic 1950s of Happy Days and Pleasantville, and so the show wants to hit that heavy, but also wants to include socially relevant issues like slut-shaming, LGBTQ and emo kids. So it's of all eras, and none. The same way the early 90s Batman cartoon had 1940s style cars, gangsters in zoot suits with tommy guns... and all of the hi-tech gadgets as well.

8 hours ago, Dobian said:

Sexed-up Betty and Veronica seducing the football player in the hot tub, another example of this show making it impossible for you to suspend disbelief that these are supposed to be 15 year olds.

Meanwhile, there's also the incredibly prudish/naive/innocent (and whichever of those words you choose, add 'offensive' to it) assertion that Veronica is 'used goods' or whatever the line was, because she played seven minutes in heaven with Archie. I mean... what did they think happened in that cupboard? I wasn't paying a massive amount of attention, but was it implied that Veronica, or the other girls, actually had sex with the football players? As I said above, it feels like the show is trying to be dark while also trying to present the image of a wholesome, American small town. It can't really manage either convincingly.

And it certainly can't manage convincing me that any of these kids is anywhere close to 15 years old. They'd have been much better off doubling down on the unreality of it and just not told us how old any of them were meant to be. The eternal high schoolers strike again.

[ruby24]

I'm into the idea of Betty/Jughead. I hope this is one of those shows where they're watching to see which actors might spark together, to decide which couples to go for. 

Seeing those two in scenes together is the first thing that made me think hmm, that could be good. I don't think there's going to be anything particularly interesting about Archie with Betty or Veronica.

[starri]

I honestly think Betty/Veronica and Archie/Jughead have more chemistry than any heterosexual pairing there, although I think Betty and Jughead did the best.

I would honestly be happier with Betty and Jughead being besties, because even if they'd decided not to keep Jughead asexual, it's still nice when you can be platonic friends with the opposite sex.

3 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

Point of clarification needed: In the comics is Ethel Jughead's girlfriend? Or just someone who pines after Jughead?

Mostly just pursues him.  Although in the current comics continuity, it's Sabrina who's been chasing after him.

[Anna Yolei]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

As I said above, it feels like the show is trying to be dark while also trying to present the image of a wholesome, American small town. It can't really manage either convincingly.

Part of me wonders whether if this show would've worked better as a dark comedy like Popular and the first ten episodes of Glee were. It would've opened up the door to have Sabrina Spellman in the Riverdale universe, at a minimum and Cheryl is basically WASP Santana Lopez with a filter and incestuous overtones anyway. 

4 hours ago, ElectricCityy said:

I am really trying with this show but something is not clicking. I like many of the actors but this is just so dull. The grey, washed-out cinematography isn't helping matters either. Can we get some sunshine? I feel like the look should be more vibrant. It's based on a comic for crying out loud.

Count me in as not digging Josie and the Pussycats. They need a better songwriting staff.

The one place that the lighting just does not work is Pop's Shoppe. You can barely see anything and it's  just way too grungy. I hope they find a better balance for this.

[Oscirus]

20 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

i...don't...like....betty...so it is very weird for me to see all the praise she is getting. lol I just feel like she's being forced on me and didn't find the actress convincing as Bad betty. I literally started laughing as she was walking out to chuck by the pool, and then was furious because I thought betty took it way way too far. Crazy as it may be I find myself really interested in Cheryl and I like that for w/e reason she is friends with Josie and kind of also archie. Give me more cheryl and josie show.

CW's had one break out character, and since Betty's blonde with a ponytail too, she gets the ridiculously positive edit which apparently seems to be working.

I'm actually going to continue just to see how blatant they can get with it.  I'm going to guess that the new triangle will be Jughead Betty Archie, because at this point, why not?

[wayne67]

I really wanted to like this show but in this episode alone it's done 3 things that really made me hate the show

1 They turned the novel character of Kevin who was a fun, clumsy guy with a large appetite who happened to be gay with a rich backstory and a friendly personality into a gay stereotype who's boring as hell. 

2 Had Josie be insufferably racist and condescending to Archie and put up with it for no real reason.

3 Had Betty and Veronica essentially torture a guy because of slanderous remarks he made with no apparent consequences in some delusional attempt at "Girl Power" .

[Neurochick]

Question.  Why do you think Josie was being racist to Archie?Wasn't she just telling him the truth?  That it's harder for a black woman than a white man?

Edited February 12, 2017 by Neurochick

[Chas411]

The episode was ok although a bit meh. While Jughead and voice overs feels like he belongs on a different show I find I'm preferring his storylines a lot more then Archie and emo music/inappropriate relationship issues. Bad Betty - I didn't read the comics although I am familiar with them - but I'm just not as enamoured as a lot of people are with the character so the bad girl trance just fell flat to me. It was random and I felt they took Veronica's storyline and made it all about Betty. Something I feel could that could happen a lot this season.

[ZoloftBlob]

Quote

 Why do you think Josie was being racist to Archie?Wasn't she just telling him the truth?  That it's harder for a black woman than a white man?

I'm not the original poster and I don't know that I'd call it racist but her objection to teaching Archie music was that he was white.

What I thought was racist was that Josie and the Pussycats were doing fine with their song writing but as soon as Archie is allowed to sit in on a jam session, the white boy is making the kitties purr with his oh so awesome song writing talent...

[Tiger]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

Question.  Why do you think Josie was being racist to Archie?Wasn't she just telling him the truth?  That it's harder for a black woman than a white man?

I don't want to speak for anyone other than myself, but I think this notion that white guys have it easy or at least easier than some other group is not only not true but racist on its face.  

I guess I have a very unqiue perspective on this because I'm technically a double minority that looks, acts, and is assumed to be a straight white male. And IMHO, and again My Opinion alone, while males actually have it extremely difficult, perhaps the most of any group in our society precisely because they're assumed to have advantages that previous generations had that they simply dont.  

They're constantly fighting baseless accusations of racisim, constantly being lectured by progressives about a privilege that doesnt exist, its almost impossible for them to get scholarship money for school, etc.  

Edited February 12, 2017 by Tiger

[starri]

1 hour ago, Tiger said:

I don't want to speak for anyone other than myself, but I think this notion that white guys have it easy or at least easier than some other group is not only not true but racist on its face.  

You're definitely not speaking for this white guy.

[Neurochick]

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

I don't want to speak for anyone other than myself, but I think this notion that white guys have it easy or at least easier than some other group is not only not true but racist on its face.  

Tell that to black men and women who have been killed by the police for doing nothing but just being black; or to black people who have been pulled over while driving for doing nothing but driving while black.  Let's not talk about employers/car dealers/ banks/apartment complexes.  I could go on but now I'm just going off topic.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Neurochick

[Neurochick]

When I was in high school and my friends and I used to read the Archie comics, we used to think that Riverdale was in...well, Riverdale, as in New York.  Technically, Riverdale is in the Bronx, but most people who live there will say, "I live in Riverdale," as opposed to, "I live in The Bronx." Riverdale is a pretty upscale community, at least it was when I was a teenager.

[Affogato]

3 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

When I was in high school and my friends and I used to read the Archie comics, we used to think that Riverdale was in...well, Riverdale, as in New York.  Technically, Riverdale is in the Bronx, but most people who live there will say, "I live in Riverdale," as opposed to, "I live in The Bronx." Riverdale is a pretty upscale community, at least it was when I was a teenager.

Works for me!

[Mabinogia]

It's actually pretty interesting to me. They never really said where Riverdale is did they? And yet I had the assumption it was the Midwest, Ohio or Indiana perhaps. I think it's the football and letterman jackets. I equate high school football "gods" with the Midwest for some reason. I also just assume that all TV towns that don't designate a state are somewhere in the Midwest or California is it looks perpetually warm out. lol

[jay741982]

14 hours ago, Oscirus said:

CW's had one break out character, and since Betty's blonde with a ponytail too, she gets the ridiculously positive edit which apparently seems to be working.

I'm actually going to continue just to see how blatant they can get with it.  I'm going to guess that the new triangle will be Jughead Betty Archie, because at this point, why not?

I will say Betty and Veronica both deserve to have the attention of multiple suitors 

[ZoloftBlob]

Quote

Tell that to black men and women who have been killed by the police for doing nothing but just being black; or to black people who have been pulled over while driving for doing nothing but driving while black.

Not denying that at all but I think that's what the OP was alluding to in calling Josie's reaction to Archie racist. She turned him down bluntly because he was white. Not because he wasn't talented or that he'd been rude to her. She didn't want to teach him about music because he was white. Now, I don't think she was being racist *because* she related her refusal to the long history of oppression but I can see how it can be misunderstood. I mean, she didn't have to make it about race at all, she's a student herself, Archie can ask for her help but she's under no obligation to say yes because... she may not want to. She may not have the time or patience for a student. She may not think Archie is serious about music. But she didn't say that, she said it was about his being white. If we reverse the situation, a black guy asking a white female musician to teach him and she said no *because he's black* there'd be no question that it's racist.

That said, the show is handling this all terribly because of the later scene I cited, where Josie's activist side is shown to be completely wrong as Archie really is super talented and instead of being a strong, smart black woman, she is shown to be wrong about a white man and in fact ends up deferring to him. I mean, do we really need more shows where the white man shows the black women how to best do what they are supposedly expert at? Who ends the special talented one? Oh right, Archie the white guy who never did music until three minutes ago. Who is the idiot who didn't want to be a part of Archie's shining glory to where she had to be forced to help him? Why Josie, that's who.

Coupled with Chuck's storyline, this show isn't exactly a shining light in the dark.

[ruby24]

I used to read lots of Archie comics, but I don't think they need to adhere too much to "canon," as far as couples go. These kinds of shows, with young actors playing teens, are always better when they write for the actors who are best (and the ones with the most chemistry together). Plus, everybody was always on/off in those silly comics anyway (except for like, Moose and Midge).

So far, I think the best actors on this show are the guy who plays Jughead for sure (which really surprised me, I was not expecting that), and Betty and Veronica of the girls. B+V are good together, and at this early point I think Betty and Jughead are too.

I'm guessing they might go for a triangle with Archie, Betty and Jughead- but if Betty and Jughead continue to have good chemistry I think they should go all in for them. Archie's not the strongest actor of this group.

And you know, in a funny way, as someone who knows the old comics, doing Betty and Jughead would be kinda fitting, imo. I always used to think Archie was mostly an ass who treated Betty like shit except for every once in a while. He always preferred Veronica, and Betty is always the butt of the joke, as the nice girl who can't get the guy (they were pretty sexist in that sense of course). But as for non-same sex friendships in the comics, Betty and Jughead were the ones portrayed as real friends who actually loved and treated each other well throughout the whole history of it. So I'd kind of like to see them be a couple on the show. It makes sense.

Edited February 12, 2017 by ruby24

[tennisgurl]

I have mixed feelings about this one, and I'm trying to figure out what rubbed me the wrong way about it. I think, its that the main plot to me felt off to me. Like, I felt like they were going for something that wasn't really working. I think its because, to me, it felt like the writers just wanted to write a Girl Power storyline where we all learn a lesson about the evils of misogyny and slut shaming, without really thinking about it or making in an interesting story. It just felt like a bunch of buzzwords someone read on Tumblr and decided to base an episode around. And, was it me, or was the punishment not exactly fitting for the crime? When the girls talked about Chuck and his friends, they acted like they were some kind of roving band of violent serial rapists, not just a bunch of teenaged asshole making up stories about scoring with chicks, and being dicks on Instagram. Seriously, I watched a few scenes again, to see if I missed a reference to Chuck sexually assaulting Ethel, or Jason attacking Polly, but...nope. Chuck just made some shit up, and, from what we saw, Jason slept with Polly and bragged to his friends about it. This is crappy behavior, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying what they were doing was alright, and Chuck and his buddies deserved a comeuppance, but was drugging the guy, chaining him in a hot tub, and screaming about him being a pig seem totally alright? I have no idea how we are supposed to feel about this. Should we be creeped out by Bonkers Betty, should we be cheering them on, or some mixture of the three? I think its the third. Seriously, I watched Sweet/Vicious a few weekends ago, which is a show about to college girls who start taking down rapists on their campus, and even they seemed less vengeful, and those guys were ACTUAL rapists! If they want to give us a Girl Power story, that's fine, I'm all for that, just give us something better, and less unintintially misandrist. Again, what they were doing was wrong, and I don't want to do a "boys will be boys" thing because that's bullshit, but still.  

And, yes, it does bother me a bit that both non white guys we have met have been assholes, and that they took Chuck, one of the few actual black people in the original Archie cannon, and turned him into a bad guy. At least Asian Reggie seems to be a lot like white guy Reggie (a jerk), and didn't become worse here. Kind of like how Josie has lost all her personality from the comics (not that she had a really well establisher personality, but she did have one) and has become an angry black women and music diva. I don't want all minority characters to be perfect angels (that's always come off as condescending) nor do I want only white people to be jerks, but I want them to be complex characters, just like non minority characters. At least Josie got a few more characteristics this week. I actually really liked her scenes writing music with Archie. I even saw some chemistry between the two of them. Maybe she ends up with him, and Betty and Veronica run off together! Archie is way more likable when he's with Jughead or talking about his music than when he's with awful Grundie or the love triangle.

Speaking of, Miss. Grundie is The Worst. I do appreciate that the show is showing a teacher sleeping with a student is gross and creepy, and not sexy or romantic. If they backtrack and try to make us sympathize with her, I will be really pissed off.

Edited February 13, 2017 by tennisgurl

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

So far, I think the best actors on this show are the guy who plays Jughead for sure (which really surprised me, I was not expecting that), and Betty and Veronica of the girls. B+V are good together, and at this early point I think Betty and Jughead are too.

I'm guessing they might go for a triangle with Archie, Betty and Jughead- but if Betty and Jughead continue to have good chemistry I think they should go all in for them. Archie's not the strongest actor of this group.

+1

I didn't even realize Josie didn't want to work with Archie because he was white because honestly when Josie's on screen I tune out everything she's saying because I find her deeply annoying. But I do find that sort of an interesting thing for them to do. I should rewatch that scene. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[loki567]

7 hours ago, ZoloftBlob said:

I'm not the original poster and I don't know that I'd call it racist but her objection to teaching Archie music was that he was white.

What I thought was racist was that Josie and the Pussycats were doing fine with their song writing but as soon as Archie is allowed to sit in on a jam session, the white boy is making the kitties purr with his oh so awesome song writing talent...

This post really chafed me. I mean look at what happened in the scene. Josie and the Pussycats were struggling with a line (fairly common in music practice). Archie gave them a line. They like it. Archie and Josie share a smile. It's a nice scene that suggests Archie's not completely out of his depth, that he and Josie can have a workable relationship. But because Arche's a white guy, he's not allowed to offer any sort of contribution in a conversation with three black women? The scene is racist for that? He should only sit in a corner, silently thinking about all the ways his white male privilege hurts people. 

Sorry, I don't want to start a big brouhaha over race, but I think condescension and dismissiveness is a universal issue that is not solely the province of white guys. 

[Dee]

Josie's point to Archie, from the very beginning, was that he doesn't get to feel entitled to invade the Pussycats space. And she was right.

The Pussycats weren't keeping Archie, from making his own music, on his own terms. They have a finely tuned brand they worked hard to establish, and their lyrics are drawn from their personal experiences as Black women, which (as Josie reminds him) Archie can't begin to comprehend.

They're not obligated to disrupt their working arrangement just because he suddenly wants to collaborate with them. 

[loki567]

They let him into the practice. They had no problem using one of his lines. It's not a Josie and the Pussycats issue, so much as a poster stretching things in order to throw out the word, "racist." 

[ZoloftBlob]

I get your point Loki567 - I know plenty of talented white guys, they exist.

But there is white male privilege in this world and a lot of this show plays right into it. What comes between Betty and Veronica? Archie the school quarterback who kinda treats Betty like shit - there is clueless and then there is Archie. But is there any doubt that Archie will continue to be Betty's pined for love even as he nails Mrs. Grundy? Of course not - that's the Archie comic trope... and the Archie comic trope is all about white privilege.

Why can't Archie simply learn music on his own if he's that talented and Josie doesn't want to teach him? Because he's the hero of the story and he can't just be good looking and the varsity quarterback, he also has to be naturally gifted at music to where he startles and surprises the girl who refused to teach him, wasn't she stupid for not seeing it, stupid girl.

The high school football theme is classic male privilege - the boys are hero athletes, the town's pride. The girls are pretty and have pompoms and these cheerleaders aren't even the tumbling acrobatic sorts, they're straight up peppy and pretty and that's the best a girl can aspire to be in this world. Anyone who isn't cheering on a boy is dangerous. Betty, Veronica and Cheryl all look athletic but no one gives two shits if they're on the soccer team, the important thing is to be pretty and peppy enough to cheer on the boys because football, the sport of men, is what matters, and if you don't cheer the boys on, if you don't buy into how you have to be pretty and peppy and shake your tits and pompoms while the boys accomplish "real" things to your silly girly cheers (that's all you're good for) then well, you're a failure in the high school football zone. I mean, as a girl, you already get the shit role of "looking pretty for the boys" but if you're not chosen as a cheerleader, you're not *pretty enough* to matter and if you choose to disregard the school culture, then something must be wrong with you.

It's not just football - that's just the example on this show. Look at that douchebag rapist on the Stanford swimteam who saw a drunk unconscious girl and fucked her because she was there. I somehow doubt white male privilege wasn't a factor in both his actions and his ridiculously light sentence.

Quote

They let him into the practice.

They let him into the practice because Cheryl (a white girl on the cheerleading team) twisted Josie's arm to do her a favor.

[Chaos Theory]

4 minutes ago, loki567 said:

They let him into the practice. They had no problem using one of his lines. It's not a Josie and the Pussycats issue, so much as a poster stretching things in order to throw out the word, "racist." 

As much as I enjoyed the episode it did feel like one big after school special to me.   There was a bit about race in there with the Pussycats not wanting to deal with Archie and part of it was he was a white dude.  There was also Betty and Veronica vs boys. 

Maybe I am just getting old.  After school special episodes aren't really my thing and tend to annoy me unless the show is an after school special and that's what you signed up for.  

[Mabinogia]

I find it kind of interesting that the take away was Josie is racist for not wanting to work with a white person but not sexist for not wanting to work with a guy. She's friends with white girl Cheryl so maybe she just doesn't like men. My takeaway was that she felt that being both white and male, he didn't know what it was like to be black and female and therefore she thought he couldn't write for a black female singer. She didn't give him enough credit. Probably because he comes across as a bit of an idiot. lol

As for the "girl power" thing with Betty and Veronica, which is part of why I think half Josie's problem was that Archie has a penis, I do think they took it way too far, but I think that was the point, to show that Betty has a really dark side and the potential to take things way too far.

I think Veronica thought, they were going to tie him up, make him uncomfortably warm, but not try to boil him, then make him confess. But when Betty showed up in her Polly costume things took a really bad turn and Veronica wasn't exactly sure what to do about it. I don't think, at least I hope, we weren't expected to be cheering them on at that point. When they were talking to the other girls, and when they went to get the book, sure, but when they went hottub confession, no. And why didn't they just take the book and bring it to the principal? I am so happy I grew up before social media. Like some meme said, if I did something stupid or embarrassing it wasn't instantly broadcast to all my friends and millions of strangers. Ah, the good old days. Now, Get off my lawn you lousy kids! haha