Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[Lantern7]

1 minute ago, Frost said:

I'm wondering if he could get a Best Supporting Actor nod.  He's a main character, but not THE main character.  I'd say that is Rey.

Has anybody gotten an Oscar nomination, but not one from the Golden Globes? I reckon he'd have the same chance as Hugh Jackman an Gal Gadot.

BTW, what is Hamil's most-known character, if you take away Luke, Joker, and various incarnations of Trickster? I mean, playing the hero of a generation is cool, but there must have been times where he felt forced into performing "Luke Be A Jedi Tonight" over and over.

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, ulkis said:

the characters from the original trilogy failed at pretty much everything they wanted to do."

I'm curious what you mean here...?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Does anyone know how the sequel trilogy is written? is there a general outline the writers for each episode have to follow or does the writer for each episode choose the way it goes? I was just wondering because I saw a lot of posts talking about dropped threads from TFA.

I'm not sure about the writing process for the trilogy, but as per IMDB, the next Star Wars-related film is the Han Solo movie, which is scheduled for release in May of next year. Since that's a time leap backwards, maybe they haven't even started the next script for the trilogy.

[dkb]

2 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

He definitely feels like the product of nepotism. 

 

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

 

Yeah, that's how I feel. Ben could've just run off to Snoke, he didn't have to kill all those little kids. So no sympathy from me. When he dies, I'll just be all, "Bye Felicia."

You guys are killing me... too funny! I especially love your calling him Bitch Boy @Spartan Girl, it cracks me up every time I read it.

[SNeaker]

34 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

I'm curious what you mean here...?

Han and Leia -- failed to build a Republic that could last more than 5 minutes, failed their child, had a failed marriage. Han failed to save his son and was murdered by him instead.

Luke -- failed to teach his nephew, failed to build a new Jedi Order, failed to redeem the Skywalker name and legacy.

Edited December 18, 2017 by SNeaker

[ulkis]

22 minutes ago, SNeaker said:

Luke -- failed to teach his nephew, failed to build a new Jedi Order, failed to redeem the Skywalker legacy.

Someone did point that Luke left behind a legacy of hope with his projection, that the story was going around and giving hope to people, and I thought that was true, but it still feels like a bit of a sop.

And it still seems weird to me that they had all three of the original actors and their characters didn't have a scene together. Yes, they might appear in the next movie a la Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan in RotJ, but it still feels like a wasted opportunity.

I don't think my being bummed for the characters  means these were bad movies in and of themselves, though. But I think they could have come up with ways too, to have a new generation be the focus and not have made everything go completely to shit for the previous characters.

Anyway, since I haven't seen it being mentioned a lot here, what do people here think of the Luke milking moment? As in what was the point? Just a shout-out to blue milk? Shout-out to milk moofer? Just trying to slide in a grounding moment of practicality?

Edited December 18, 2017 by ulkis

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, SNeaker said:

Han and Leia -- failed to build a Republic that could last more than 5 minutes, failed their child, had a failed marriage. Han failed to save his son and was murdered by him instead.

Luke -- failed to teach his nephew, failed to build a new Jedi Order, failed to redeem the Skywalker legacy.

Thanks, I appreciate the reply.

A lot of that has to do with Ben/Kylo Ren, which is complicated to say the least, but he's also his own person and responsible for his own choices.  

As for the Republic, since the resistance is still alive, I'd term that as still an on-going concern.... not a failure yet, so long as the spark still lives.   

And as for Luke's Jedi order... the old way needed to burn, and I think Luke knew that even as he started the school, and I suspect that may even be partly why he chose to exile himself after.  But Rey has the texts now, so maybe she can build something from what Luke taught her, from what the texts will teach her, and from her own strength and ingenuity.  To me, the Skywalker legacy is how everyone Luke, Leia & Han have touched carries the fight forward and I very definitely don't see that as a failure.   

3 minutes ago, ulkis said:

And don't appreciate critics condescending that just because some fans don't like what was done with the characters, it means that all those fans simply want each SW movie to be the same thing each time. I'm sure some do, but that certainly doesn't apply to all.

No, that's definitely not cool and I very much agree with you on that.  

[johntfs]

57 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

BTW, what is Hamil's most-known character, if you take away Luke, Joker, and various incarnations of Trickster? I mean, playing the hero of a generation is cool, but there must have been times where he felt forced into performing "Luke Be A Jedi Tonight" over and over.

Perhaps Skips from Regular Show or Arnim Zola from various Marvel animated shows.  Hamill's done a ton of voice work over the years.  If you're talking about live-action appearances outside of Star Wars, one of his better known previous ones was as Professor Arnold in Kingsman: The Secret Service.

[SnoGirl]

Did Luke leave any footprints on the Salt Planet? With everything turning red, he would have left no footprints correct?

After pondering more, I really like Poe’s story. He really messes up in this movie and he really learned the lesson. If it wasnt for Poe, we would have more resistance fighters left. After not falling in line and listening to Leia and Holdo, he tells the plan to Finn who is with the double-crossing Code Breaker. If Poe had listened and not told, more of the fighters probably would have lived. It was a good story to give to Poe because he’s so damn likable. Im sure Holdo is going to catch heat for just not telling Poe earlier, but I get it. It was need to know and Poe had been demoted by Leia. Holdo was Leia’s friend, and was taking her lead. I just wish Holdo had gone after the Empire’s ships eariler. During the movie, my Father turned to me and said “You know, she could at least attempt to block the shots with her ship” and then a loud “finally” when he realized she was going to use her ship as a giant bomb.

I hope Hollywood was watching this. We had heroes who were old, young, female, male, and all sorts of races. Everytime another female was in a fighter, commanding the deck, or as Jin Erso would say “rebelling” my heart attempted to bust out of my chest. Its about damn time Star Wars.

[Morrigan2575]

7 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Did Luke leave any footprints on the Salt Planet? With everything turning red, he would have left no footprints correct?

 

He didn't leave prints. Its actually one of the clues (that I totally missed). Jeremy Jahns mentioned it in his spoiler review this weekend. On his 2nd viewing he noticed that the camera actually highlights the lack of foot prints.

Also, another thing that I caught which Jahns didn't, they foreshadowed Luke's death in one of the Rey/Kylo scenes. He asks her how she was connecting them, then says no, there's no way you could do it without destroying yourself (something to that effect). So later when we see Luke is astro-projecting from his planet we know it took everything out of him.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[MrsR]

2 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

letting go of the past and moving forward into the future

I'm pretty sure that that was Rian Johnson's message to the audience concerning the direction and plot.  Along with "It's not going to go the way you think"  it's an obvious author's message. 

 

I saw Mark Hamill on Broadway in The Nerd and when he was touring in Amadeus. I dearly wish he had gotten the film Amadeus but Milos Forman rejected him specifically because he had been Luke Skywalker.

Edited December 18, 2017 by MrsR

[SnoGirl]

36 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

He didn't leave prints. Its actually one of the clues (that I totally missed). Jeremy Jahns mentioned it in his spoiler review this weekend. On his 2nd viewing he noticed that the camera actually highlights the lack of foot prints.

Also, another thing that I caught which Jahns didn't, they foreshadowed Luke's death in one of the Rey/Kylo scenes. He asks her how she was connecting them, then says no, there's no way you could do it without destroying yourself (something to that effect). So later when we see Luke is astro-projecting from his planet we know it took everything out of him.

Well, I thought it was funny that Luke had time to cut his hair. I was literally sitting there going “did the aliens on his planet trim his locks before he left?” That should have been a HUGE clue that he wasnt really there. And I really like Mark with long hair, he should grow his out. Lol!

 

As an avid hater of Ren/Kylo, I did love the two of them fighting together. The hand-to-hand fighting is my favorite, and I wish we had more jedi in the series. Im just getting into the Clone Wars tv show (thanks Netflix) and the jedi fights are my favorite. I was disappointed no hiding Jedi answered the pleas of help by the Resistence. I hated the scene of the child at the end, I wish we had seen something else like old Jedi who had been trainning Force-sensitive children hearing the call. More world building, more help for the rebellion. The galaxy is a huge place. Luke couldnt have been the only one who survived. (Im also only one season two of Clone Wars, dont spoil me ?)

[QTBlueMoon]

On 12/16/2017 at 5:06 PM, Silver Raven said:

Dammit, Luke annoyed the hell out of me for most of this movie.  He was such a whiny bitch. 

Luke has been a whiny bitch through the whole series. He's done some bad ass things, but pretty much whined through all of it.

[Wynterwolf]

Just now, QTBlueMoon said:

Luke has been a whiny bitch through the whole series. He's done some bad ass things, but pretty much whined through all of it.

"Uncle Oweeeeeeen, I wanna go play with my frieeeeeends"

I still love him though.  :-D

[The Kings Foot]

22 hours ago, pivot said:

I loved every single minute of this movie. Just so much fun. I think they did a good job keeping with the spirit of the other movies. And I love that so many women and so many minorities played big parts in the movie.  Peter Jackson and the folks at Marvel need to take a hard look at this movie and realize you can tell a story with minorities  and women as heroes. 

 Just as an aside here. Jackson was limited by the novels in having mostly white men. 

[The Kings Foot]

3 hours ago, ulkis said:

I think there's a difference between "letting go of the past" and "oh by the way, the characters from the original trilogy failed at pretty much everything they wanted to do."

Does anyone know how the sequel trilogy is written? is there a general outline the writers for each episode have to follow or does the writer for each episode choose the way it goes? I was just wondering because I saw a lot of posts talking about dropped threads from TFA.

 Don't know but apparantly the plot of Episode 9 was only pitched to Disney two days ago. December 15th. 

[SnoGirl]

1 minute ago, The Kings Foot said:

 Don't know but apparantly the plot of Episode 9 was only pitched to Disney two days ago. December 15th. 

HUH-WHAT? You mean they didnt plot out these three movies...in advance? Unless this was the revised pitch because of Carrie dying. They had to have some end in mind right?

[VCRTracking]

19 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

HUH-WHAT? You mean they didnt plot out these three movies...in advance? Unless this was the revised pitch because of Carrie dying. They had to have some end in mind right?

People are so shocked at this. This is how most film series are done. Lord of the Rings is the exception because it was based on a book. I know Lucas had said he had the OT outlined but that's bullshit. Every early draft of each movie was wildly different from the finished film.

Rian Johnson had complete carte blanch to make his movie. He just took what Abrams left him and did his thing.

 

57 minutes ago, QTBlueMoon said:

On 12/16/2017 at 5:06 PM, Silver Raven said:

Dammit, Luke annoyed the hell out of me for most of this movie.  He was such a whiny bitch. 

Luke has been a whiny bitch through the whole series. He's done some bad ass things, but pretty much whined through all of it.

I didn't find Luke whiny. I found him grumpy and pissed off much like many an retiree.

 

2 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

To me, the Skywalker legacy is how everyone Luke, Leia & Han have touched carries the fight forward and I very definitely don't see that as a failure.

I think one of the reasons so many people want Rey to be a Skywalker or Solo is they don't want Kylo to be their only legacy and I understand that but I think Rey, Poe, Finn, Rose are the true heirs to the original three in spirit if not by blood. Han got to influence Rey and Finn, Luke on Rey, Leia on everybody.

Edited December 18, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Silver Raven]

7 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I didn't find Luke whiny. I found him grumpy and pissed off much like many an retiree.

[Luckylyn]

This movie made me think about the scene in Return of the Jedi when Luke insists that Leia is the strong one.  He’s right.  This is a woman who has experienced tremendous losses (her parents and entire planet destroyed in front of her, not being able to stay with the love of her life, finding out her biological father is the monster who murdered her family, losing her son to his evil choices, being abandoned by her brother).  Yet Leia has never wavered or walked away from the fight.   The loss of Carrie Fisher is such a blow because Leia more than anyone has represented perservence and hope despite difficult odds.    

What was Luke’s bigger error?  Seriously considering killing Ben or hesitating and utilmately changing his mind?  I can completely understand Ben lashing out at his uncle after waking up to find him standing over him with a light saber but that doesn’t excuse the innocents Kylo has killed.   The harm he’s done is on Kylo’s shoulders.   Luke talking about Kylo killing some students but taking the others with him seems like a loose thread to be picked up later.   I still need more back story info to find out how Snoke got access to Kylo to turn him before Luke could complete Ben’s training.  Luke trolling Kylo was pure joy for me.  

I got teary eyed when Leia and Luke reunited but totally lost it when Luke died watching the horizon like in A New Hope.

Luke tossing the light saber was hysterical.   Some of cranky Luke was fun, but I feel like it lasted to long.  I feel like Rey’s training was shortchanged.   In Empire Strikes Back the bits of Luke training showed his learning curve.  We saw Yoda challenge Luke physically, mentally, and emotionally.   I understand that Rey is supposed to possess an unusally strong ability with the force, but still I would have like more scenes of Luke training her.   I like that she stole the Jedi texts and that Rey absolutely refuses to give up.  She is like Leia in that way.

I’m on the fence about Poe’s mutiny, on the one hand Holdo was so close lipped about her plan that it seemed the situation was hopeless from Poe’s point of view.  On the other hand when you have a command structure there are going to be times when the head doesn’t keep other people informed and soliders have to trust and follow orders without knowing all the details.  I think the story would have benefited by establishing that there were concerns about a  spy within the alliance which would help explain Holdo’s refusal to share the plan and appear so ineffectual.    It was odd that she didn’t speak up once the mutiny started to stop it before it went so far.   Her brief scene with Leia talking about loss.  Such a small scene but both actresses were able to convey a great friendship.  Holdo’s lightspeed into the enemy was stunning.

Finn, Rose, and Poe’s actions ended up getting people killed because Finn and Rose inadvertantly are the reason the First Order were able to find out about the cloaked transports plan.   That’s a huge mistake to have the characters make and a risky narrative to go with.  In the end, I like that the heroes are fallible and errors happen as long as they learn from them.   Poe needed to be humbled a bit.  Finn needed to committ not just to wanting to protect Rey but also to becoming  a true member of the resistance.    

I’m uncertain what’s going on romantically.   Elements (ex:shirtless scene) of the Rey and Kylo scenes could be interpreted romantic but then they had him go from saving Rey to committing to being fully evil.  I loved her shutting the door on him and letting go of the idea he could be saved.   The camera made a point of lingering on Rey watching Finn with Rose which is open to interpretation.  There was no Finn/Poe fliration that I was hoping for but then there was a spark of something when Poe introduced himself to Rey.  Poe is a chemistry machine and could probably be paired with almost anyone and make it work.  Rose kissing Finn was a bit of a surprise.  After thinking about it, it didn’t totally come out of no where.  It was established in their first scene together that Rose had some hero worship happening which dimmed when she realized Finn was attempting to flee.  Working with Finn and all the danger they faced allowed her crush to reassert itself.  

Overall I really enjoyed this and am excited for the next installment.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, QTBlueMoon said:

Luke has been a whiny bitch through the whole series. He's done some bad ass things, but pretty much whined through all of it.

Well, he went into the franchise like a bitch, but he went out like a boss.

[Wynterwolf]

14 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Poe is a chemistry machine

Truth.

[SNeaker]

48 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I think one of the reasons so many people want Rey to be a Skywalker or Solo is they don't want Kylo to be their only legacy and I understand that but I think Rey, Poe, Finn, Rose are the true heirs to the original three in spirit if not by blood. Han got to influence Rey and Finn, Luke on Rey, Leia on everybody.

I am one of those who wanted her to be a Skywalker just so Ren wasn't the only one. To me the tragedy of this child -- the one child of Han and Leia, the nephew and pupil of Luke, the namesake of Obi Wan, the embodiment of all the hopes and dreams of the life and world the original characters wanted to build -- going evil is a huge thing. It's what the entire sequel series hinges on. And it's incredibly poorly developed and explained, leaving the emotional weight of it completely flat. I would have preferred no Skywalker children to this being the only one and it being told so poorly. In Return of the Jedi, Luke refuses to fight Vader instead insisting he can be saved. Vader, who killed scores of people, helped blow up a planet, tortured Leia, put Han in carbonite, cut off Luke's hand knowing it was his son -- was worth saving because Luke sensed the good in him. When it came to his own nephew -- a boy he'd known since birth and presumably loved his whole life, he's all "he hasn't done anything yet, but he feeeeeels evil, so I'mma maybe kill him in his sleep." Wha? Luke? Luke who sees the good in everyone? Who saw it in VADER? I don't buy it. Tell me that Luke *refused* to see it, that he was in denial, that he insisted on trying to save a boy who couldn't be saved because he loved him, and that caused the death of innocents which made him retreat into despair, and I'd believe it. That his strength was also his weakness I'd believe. But not this.

I could kind of get behind the idea that Rey -- the little abandoned scavenger orphan -- is their "true" child, if not by blood then by spirit (Han develops a fatherly relationship with her, Luke an uncle/teacher dyanmic), and that she is the one to carry on their legacy, but the problem is Leia, who will not get the chance to be her "mother." I know it's no fault of the filmmakers, but without Carrie there to finish out Leia's story and connect it to Rey's and Kylo's there is no redemption for the Skywalker/Solos, and no weight at all to the rest of Kylo's story. Mother and son didn't even get to have a single scene or exchange of dialogue. And now they never will. It's a problem.

Edited December 18, 2017 by SNeaker

[SnoGirl]

Im super happy they didnt kill Poe off in the first movie. He literally sparkles with everyone he meets. 

 

Still loved and shipped him and Finn. I loved that he ran to Finn at the beginning of the movie. Can thag be a thing, Poe running to Finn puppy level excitment at seeing his friend? I hope it happens now in Episode 9. If Poe ends up with someone, I wouldnt mind Poe with Rey either. I agree with the poster who said that he was repeatedly impressed with Rey, from her getting the Empire to follow her in the Falcon, and moving the stones he just seemed to love every moment of it. His fanily’s canon is that his parents met fighting together right? Both pilots? I could get behind that for him as well. I like that we saw their introduction, although I call foul on it. You think they would have met when Finn was injured sitting bedside with him. At least they talked this episode. Hopefully next episode we see all the next generations fight together.

Edited December 18, 2017 by SnoGirl

[Silver Raven]

The scenes between Finn and Holdo were so weird, not only because of the height difference, but because they were standing like six inches apart.

[ulkis]

39 minutes ago, SNeaker said:

I could kind of get behind the idea that Rey -- the little abandoned scavenger orphan -- is their "true" child, if not by blood then by spirit (Han develops a fatherly relationship with her, Luke an uncle/teacher dyanmic), and that she is the one to carry on their legacy, but the problem is Leia, who will not get the chance to be her "mother." I know it's no fault of the filmmakers, but without Carrie there to finish out Leia's story and connect it to Rey's and Kylo's there is no redemption for the Skywalker/Solos, and no weight at all to the rest of Kylo's story. Mother and son didn't even get to have a single scene or exchange of dialogue. And now they never will. It's a problem.

I'm gonna respond in the Star Wars Saga thread.

[MisterGlass]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

1 hour ago, SnoGirl said:

HUH-WHAT? You mean they didnt plot out these three movies...in advance? Unless this was the revised pitch because of Carrie dying. They had to have some end in mind right?

People are so shocked at this. This is how most film series are done. Lord of the Rings is the exception because it was based on a book. I know Lucas had said he had the OT outlined but that's bullshit. Every early draft of each movie was wildly different from the finished film.

Rian Johnson had complete carte blanch to make his movie. He just took what Abrams left him and did his thing.

It does appear that Rian Johnson was at liberty to do what he wanted.  However, there are certain expectations when a series of movies is announced as a trilogy.  One of those expectations is a connected story.  George Lucas's original plans did change, but he ended up with a cohesive trilogy that told the stories of the central characters well.  Other more ad hoc trilogies have managed something similar, like Back to the Future and Star Trek II-IV.

For all the investment that Disney has put into this movie it's very poor planning not to have an outline that says we begin at A in Episode VII and end at B in Episode VIII and at C in Episode IX, and the director can do whatever otherwise.  They need a Star Wars movie show runner. 

[ulkis]

On 12/17/2017 at 9:40 PM, The Kings Foot said:

 Don't know but apparantly the plot of Episode 9 was only pitched to Disney two days ago. December 15th. 

Thanks.

Edited December 19, 2017 by ulkis

[anna0852]

The more I picture Rey as a younger Solo child, the more Kylo's internal conflicts make sense. This is how my mind puts it together:

Ben is born (and in my head unplanned, he seems to be born within a year of the events of ROJ and I'd guess with the efforts to rebuild the Republic Leia was not looking to add parenthood at the same time. Which of course puts stress on her and her relationship with Han and Ben picks up on this as well), the symbol of a new era for the Republic and the Jedi. He's named for a famous Jedi master, child/nephew of a literal Galactic heroes, and despite the best efforts of his parents/uncle enormous expectations are placed on him from birth. He has power and potential and he's going the first of a new generation. But he's a difficult, moody and tempestous child, by turns a entiled princeling and overwhelmed kid and all around *hard* child to raise. His parents and his uncle love him of course but any parent can tell you that sometimes it is very hard to *like* your kids. And because of his Force sensitivity Kylo knows what the adults around him are thnking. And it becomes a spiralling cycle. The more he acts out, the more his parents struggle to deal with him and the more Han/Leia/Luke struggle with him, the more he acts out. 

And when he's 9 years old his younger sister is born (I'm use the real age gap between the actors, Daisy is 25 and Adam is 34). She has just as much potential and power but a completely different personality. She's an easy kid. Good natured, even tempered, a hard worker and even at a young age a clear idea of right and wrong. Ben's opposite in almost every way and of course that's reflected in her relationship with her parents and uncle. Ben both loves her and resents her. The more he seems to struggle, the easier things seem to be for her.

And it all culminates with Luke igniting that lightsaber that night. Kylo snaps but can't bring himself to kill his little sister. So he tampers with her memories, lets everyone think she's dead and leaves her on Jakku.

Thats how it goes in my head at least.

[pivot]

4 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

 Just as an aside here. Jackson was limited by the novels in having mostly white men. 

No he wasn't. It was a fantasy novel. He could easily have cast a minority in any of those roles in LotR. 

[Zuleikha]

I finally saw this and was left unsatisfied. I'm glad reading through this thread to see that other people were also unsatisfied.

If it's true that the directors were given mostly carte blanche, I think that was a bad idea and it showed. There were emotional beats set in TFA that were left to dangle here, which is unsatisfying. I agree with the point made that Kylo Ren is simply too important a character--both because of his plot significance and his emotional significance--to have his turn to the dark side left so unexplained just because Rian Johnson didn't want to deal with figuring out Snoke. Killing Snoke was fine, and I really liked that scene. But there still needed to be some understanding of who Snoke was; what his goals were; and how he so successfully turned Kylo.

I don't understand the political background. The First Order was the rag tag underpowered remnants of the Empire per the first movie. They blew up one system. It was significant yes, but they were the ones on the run and in defeat at the end of the first movie, not the Resistance. How/why did that situation reverse in this one? And why wouldn't the New Republic be more effective in fighting back. They weren't fighting back in the first one because of the peace treaty. But now that the First Order broke the treaty and massacred many people, there is no reason for the New Republic not to lend its full resources to the Resistance.

I thought there were some beautiful character moments, but I didn't think any of the character beats made sense. I thought Finn pretty much got to caring about the Resistance in addition to Rey in TFA, so I didn't see meaningful growth from him here. And pretty much all he and Rose did was make things worse, which is frustrating for me as a Finn fan. I wanted him to do something truly important. Also, I just don't think it makes sense that with limited fuel and a huge time limit, he and Rose would be able to jet off the a non-Resistance affiliated planet to find this mysterious Codebreaker. I agree that Finn seeing the city as beautiful than having Rose talk him into ugliness makes doesn't work for the character we first met losing his faith in the First Order because of witnessing its cruelty.

I don't know who Rose is or why she's there as a character. Or why we saw her sister die. I like the idea of having a significant Asian-American character for personal representation reasons, but she's so disconnected from everything else. I disagreed with her decision to keep Finn from attacking the cannon. Star Wars is full of character sacrifices; heck, this movie is full of character sacrifices! Her motivations may have made sense on a personal level (she lost her sister; she couldn't bear to lose Finn), but they didn't work thematically. And to me, it's boring rather than clever to watch characters fail over and over and never succeed.

Poe had a character journey, which would have been great if he hadn't been a tertiary character who got a beefed up storyline due to Finn/Poe shippers. And if his story wasn't so frustrating. Why didn't he trust Holdo? I never understood it. What was he expecting that she wasn't? Why did he feel entitled to know her plans when he wasn't one of her advisers or on a command level that entitled him to be part of strategy discussions? Why did he believe she wouldn't be interested in and act on Finn/Rose's idea? Poe's basically an a-hole, indirectly responsible for a lot of Resistance deaths. As a commander, he should already know about chain of command. (and shouldn't Rose feel some resentment towards Poe? He disobeyed orders, which directly led to Paige's death. It's not like the Dreadnought's destruction accomplished anything!) 

The Kylo/Rey stuff was so well acted and nicely done and the fake out with Snoke was great... except for the problem that Kylo had already killed Han. We knew he wasn't coming back to the light side after that (or at least, no one really wanted him to or found it believable that he would). He and Rey basically took one or two steps further down the path TFA set them on, but gave us no new information on their connection to each other/why Rey seemed to have previous Force training.

I though the Luke stuff was great but ultimately incomplete (he never did his third lesson, right?). Again, there were too many fake outs. Why did it matter that Rey was drawn to the cave? Did we learn ANYTHING that we didn't already know other than that Luke thought about killing Kylo for a hot second but never actually tried. And that revelation is further watered down by confirming that Kylo was already really, really bad plus he massacred a bunch of innocent students, who had nothing to do with Luke's potential action. (and will we ever learn who the Knights of Ren are and what they have to do with Kylo?)

[The Kings Foot]

4 hours ago, pivot said:

No he wasn't. It was a fantasy novel. He could easily have cast a minority in any of those roles in LotR. 

This is the wrong thread for this. But have you actually  read Tolkien? 

[Ravenya003]

I've just come back from it, and I'll have more to say after I've processed it all, but for now - all I can think about is Arrested Development:

Reylos: We were right, we were right!

Narrator: They were not right.

Seriously, that was some next level trolling. 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ravenya003

[Jediknight]

8 hours ago, SNeaker said:

When it came to his own nephew -- a boy he'd known since birth and presumably loved his whole life, he's all "he hasn't done anything yet, but he feeeeeels evil, so I'mma maybe kill him in his sleep." Wha? Luke? Luke who sees the good in everyone? Who saw it in VADER? I don't buy it. Tell me that Luke *refused* to see it, that he was in denial, that he insisted on trying to save a boy who couldn't be saved because he loved him, and that caused the death of innocents which made him retreat into despair, and I'd believe it. That his strength was also his weakness I'd believe. But not this.

That was them saying "Kylo's not going good, he's evil.  He ain't misunderstood, he's evil.  The love of Rey won't save him, because he's freaking evil!"  Luke, freaking Luke, sensed the growing evil in him and thought he was too much of a threat.  They were letting everybody know, that there is no Reylo, there's no saving him, and he's always going to be on the Dark Side.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Jediknight

[SNeaker]

5 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

That was them saying "Kylo's not going good, he's evil.  He ain't misunderstood, he's evil.  The love of Rey won't save him, because he's freaking evil!"  Luke, freaking Luke, sensed the growing evil in him and thought he was too much of a threat.  They were letting everybody know, that there is no Reylo, there's no saving him, and he's always going to be on the Dark Side.

They can *say* it, but it doesn't mean I'll believe it -- that before he ever did anything (so far as we know? again, this period of time is super vague and gives us no sense of what Ben was like as a child and what did that was so scary, it's all just about feeeeeeelings) he was already irredeemable. And, in fact, we're basically given the impression that Luke's aborted attempt was the final straw that sent Ben careening over into the dark side, and that's why Luke's a failure. That maybe if he'd approached it differently, he could have saved him before it was too late. Sent the kid to Jedi rehab and scrubbed the Snoke from his brain.

[absnow54]

I think one of the reasons so many people want Rey to be a Skywalker or Solo is they don't want Kylo to be their only legacy and I understand that but I think Rey, Poe, Finn, Rose are the true heirs to the original three in spirit if not by blood. Han got to influence Rey and Finn, Luke on Rey, Leia on everybody.

I really wanted Kylo to be redeemed after TFA for exactly this reason, but coming out of TLJ, I agree. Han, Leia, and Luke's legacy isn't going to be through their demon spawn, it'll be through Rey, Finn, and Poe who have learned from them and been inspired by them. That seemed to be a theme of this movie. That anyone can be a hero, even without a super special backstory. That said, I'd still be totally cool with Rey being a Skywalker/Solo because I've invested pretty much my entire life in that family, and it would be really nice if Kylo wasn't the last one.

[SNeaker]

18 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

That said, I'd still be totally cool with Rey being a Skywalker/Solo because I've invested pretty much my entire life in that family, and it would be really nice if Kylo wasn't the last one.

I would be fine with them just having had a kid who was an ordinary kid. Like a Jedi squib. I don't need all Jedi to be Skywalkers or all Skywalkers to be Jedi.

Edited December 18, 2017 by SNeaker

[Enero]

7 hours ago, pivot said:

No he wasn't. It was a fantasy novel. He could easily have cast a minority in any of those roles in LotR. 

If I’m not mistaken he did...as Orcs. ? SMH. But I know that is not what you’re saying. 

Back on topic, I haven’t seen this yet. I’m not a big Star Wars fan. The first series bored me to tears could not get through any of the movies.The series they did with NP and HC weren’t much better. 

I did enjoy The Clone Wars cartoon and The Force Awakens. I’ll have to go back and watch the latter to remember where they left off and thus how they’re moving forward. 

It’s interesting how fan response is a mixed bag. People either liked it or didn’t, not much in between out there. 

[Frost]

9 hours ago, anna0852 said:

And when he's 9 years old his younger sister is born

Somehow both Leia and Han forget they had a daughter?  And Luke forgets he had a niece?  I didn't get any sense from the Force Awakens that any of them were missing another child.  A child born from a relationship between Luke and an unknown love where she hid her pregnancy for some reason would be plausible.  I think it could be cool if Rey were an altered clone of Luke.  I too feel sorrowful that Kylo Ren is the last remnant of a family I've loved for 40 years!

I have never interpreted the idea of the Force being strong in the Skywalker family as meaning they are some kind of elitist dynastic royalty.  That seems like projection to me.  For one thing, Han Solo was just as big of a hero as Luke and he has as much sensitivity to the Force as a potato.   Plus, if Luke founded a school to train Jedi he must have found a number of children scattered around the galaxy with potential.   It just seems to me that Force sensitivity is like being good at sports.  It usually helps if you have an athletic parent or two but it's not strictly necessary.

[Wynterwolf]

3 minutes ago, Frost said:

Plus, if Luke founded a school to train Jedi he must have found a number of children scattered around the galaxy with potential.   It just seems to me that Force sensitivity is like being good at sports.  It usually helps if you have an athletic parent or two but it's not strictly necessary.

There was a storyline from Star Wars Rebels where the Empire was going around and rounding up all the children of any species they could find with Force potential, and stealing them away from their families (which is part of the reason I had hoped that Finn could be at lease Force sensitive), so I agree it's a fairly random trait, but also could be loosely linked through heredity, as many things like that are.  

[Wynterwolf]

This twitter thread is pretty much how I've come to feel about the movie (there's more than one tweet to this):

 

[anna0852]

I've always considered the Force sensitivity thing to be very similar to how magic was described in Harry Potter. It can absolutely be passed on through genetics, as demonstrated with the Skywalkers. But it can also appear as a random mutation in the gene pool. Some people are just born with it even though there is no family history. Because until now the Jedi maintained no relationships, you were only getting the genetic mutation Force-sensitives. To me that means that potentially there's going to be a lot more potential Jedi running around because you'll have both the random mutation folks and the ones who inherit from their parents.

[afterbite]

Some folks here have postulated that Hux will end up assisting the Resistance in some way in the third film, but I just don't see it. His rivalry is clearly with Kylo Ren, imo, but he's also heavily invested in being a big shot in the First Order. He's a true believer and, if anything, is tired of Ren's tantrums getting in the way of steam rolling the Resistance. So, I can see him undermining Ren or perhaps taking advantage of something the Resistance does that weakens Ren, but I can't see him turning coat. He's a kowtowing lackey who is resentful of having to be a kowtowing lackey. What I don't have any sense of is who is in charge of the First Order. Where does their funding come from? (Likely from old Imperial supporters, but still, what is their leadership structure?) Hux is the military commander in the field, but he doesn't have the feel of leadership. Snoke as a central coordinating committee? But how? He's so menacing yet oddly ineffectual? He's just there to make Ren and Hux grovel? I suppose you could say that OT Palpatine was the same, but there was more of a sense of him acting behind the scenes to orchestrate things. Snoke just yells at people and says he's made weird mind links and has a Praetorian guard with wildly inefficient helmets. Seriously - how did they see out of those things?

I neither hated nor loved the movie. I though it was great spectacle that was visually very pleasing with iffy storytelling. It kind of felt like it was ticking some boxes. "It's not enough that the tiny Resistance has a whole fleet chasing them. We need to add in some real urgency. Oh, I know! They only have X hours of fuel left!" etc., etc. "We'll send some characters off on a wacky adventure! We need at least one crowd scene with goofy Star Wars canteen music and gleeful aliens, right?" Or, "We need some tension inside the Rebel camp. Let's make Holdo seem shady/stoned, so that she's a character with unclear motivations until the very last minute where we shove all her characterization into 30 seconds and a truly badass sacrifice." (Note: That sacrifice was truly badass, but maybe she should have done that earlier? Maybe that was the plan all along once the cloaked ships were well on their way, but once things start going bad, perhaps she could have been a little less leisurely about it?)

Anyway, I'm not invested in Rey as a Skywalker (or Solo, but that's really just a Skywalker with a patriarchal name change). I'd be happier if she wasn't, honestly, because the machinations you'd have to put in to make it at all feasible in the 3rd movie of a trilogy where there's been no real foreshadowing would strain credibility. Maybe the Force created another Anakin in her to try and bring balance, and she doesn't know her parents because her mom got virgin birthed and ended up dying because she lived in the middle of the desert and had no support network to help her through it. Honestly, it would probably be a better explanation for her advanced Jedi techniques in absence of training, and I'd be okay with that.

I was kind of okay with Finn's journey because it brought him face to face with the thing he feared most - the First Order and his old commander - and he was able to face those fears and overcome them. Sure, he went on a wild goose chase for a MacGuffin to get there in a storyline that needed to be leaner to be a technically good storyline (imo), but good on him. I'm glad he was able to do that.

I have more thoughts, but this is already way too long. Let me finish with this: Everything about this movie points to Ep IX as Leia's movie, and it's so incredibly bittersweet that we'll never see what it could have been.

[absnow54]

Somehow both Leia and Han forget they had a daughter? And Luke forgets he had a niece? I didn't get any sense from the Force Awakens that any of them were missing another child.

This is the biggest hurdle for holding on to the Rey is Han and Leia's daughter. Leia can feel the presence of those she loves. Han isn't canonically Force sensitive, but Leia could still sense when he died (unless she was tapped into Kylo's energy) so I find it really suspect that she wouldn't recognize Rey's energy, unless she's keeping it a secret for no reason. I did find it interesting that they juxtaposed Rey and Kylo's force bond against Luke and Leia's though.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, QTBlueMoon said:

Luke has been a whiny bitch through the whole series. He's done some bad ass things, but pretty much whined through all of it.

 

13 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

"Uncle Oweeeeeeen, I wanna go play with my frieeeeeends"

I still love him though.  :-D

Co-sign to both of these posts.  I think we can see where Kylo got his emo nature from. ;)

12 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

This movie made me think about the scene in Return of the Jedi when Luke insists that Leia is the strong one.  He’s right.  This is a woman who has experienced tremendous losses (her parents and entire planet destroyed in front of her, not being able to stay with the love of her life, finding out her biological father is the monster who murdered her family, losing her son to his evil choices, being abandoned by her brother).  Yet Leia has never wavered or walked away from the fight.   The loss of Carrie Fisher is such a blow because Leia more than anyone has represented perservence and hope despite difficult odds.    

 

I was talking to my mom about this last night (she hasn't seen TLJ yet).  I was saying it was going to be so hard to do Episode 9, because if I had to pick ONE hero from Star Wars as "the hero" it would be Leia, hands-down.  

[Frost]

34 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

I've always considered the Force sensitivity thing to be very similar to how magic was described in Harry Potter. It can absolutely be passed on through genetics, as demonstrated with the Skywalkers. But it can also appear as a random mutation in the gene pool. Some people are just born with it even though there is no family history

The big difference to me is that the Harry Potter universe clearly shows an elitist streak, where Mudbloods (people with magical powers from non magical families) and Squibs (people born to magical families that don't have magical powers) are looked down upon by a LOT of the magical community.   I don't recall any Star Wars canon that promotes that same mind set.  

Sure, people with Force sensitivity are celebrated.  Why wouldn't they be?  They can levitate stuff!  How cool is that?  On the other hand, Rose hero worships Finn from the start and Force sensitivity has nothing to do with that.

[anna0852]

Oh I just meant that how some people end up with magic and some people don't, was similar to how we see the force being doled out as well. I certainly didn't mean to imply that there's any sort of discrimination against certain force-users.

[benteen]

I saw the film on Thursday night and I thought it was great.  It was not without its flaws to be sure but I had a lot of fun watching it. 

I thought the opening battle was great, very exciting.  Thought Mark Hamill was fantastic in it and his performance was particularly impressive as it was probably the most significant live-action stuff he's done in quite a while.  I thought they handled Luke very well in it.  I didn't like the idea of him trying to kill Ben because that is NOT Luke Skywalker.  Luke was the one who risked his life to save his father, who was far worse than Kylo.  But I could buy that for a moment, he considered a very idea and then instantly regretted it.  I like what they did with Luke in the end and I had no doubt he would end up becoming one with the Force.

While the Mary Poppins moment might have been a little too much (probably would have worked better if Leia had done that more quickly), I was just glad to see Leia actually USE the Force in this movie.  This was something GL apparently wanted to explore in his original sequel trilogy pitch.  Carrie Fisher was quite good and I thought her and Laura Dern sold their friendship in their only real scene together.  I'm also very happy that she and Hamill had a scene together.

The Last Jedi definitely did a much better job establishing its than The Force Awakens, where one planet was a rehash of Tatooine and the rest were forgettable.  The locales were at least memorable.

Props to Johnson for actually doing something with the Hux character and making him funny.  He turned out to be a highlight of the movie and I loved the bit where he considered shooting Kylo.  I think the feud with Kylo will still continue and he might help bring about his downfall but there's no way Hux would ever help The Resistance.  The new EU (which is canon) introduced his father, Brendol Hux, before the release of The Force Awakens.  Hux the elder was an Imperial commandant who proposed the idea of training stormtroopers from birth to be loyal to the Empire and after the fall of the Empire, he put the program into implementation with the First Order.  Hux the younger is very much a product of First Order training and would never consider something else.

Was thrilled to see Yoda back in this movie and his scene with Luke was great.  Though I wish to hell we could have seen Luke interact with Force Anakin.  That is something I very much want to see.

I was surprised that their was no real lightsaber duel in this movie though Rey and Kylo vs Snoke's guards was pretty awesome and brutal.

Issues with the movie...

-The Rey parents revelation.  I don't totally mind the idea of Rey coming from nowhere special in regards to her parents but after all this build-up, to say this was a letdown would be an understatement.  I blame this on JJ 100%.  He introduced this mystery in TFA and then decided not to answer it then, wanting to be cute with it.  If Rey's parents were supposed to be nobodies, then they should have decided to establish this in the first movie.  Now, things might change in Episode 9 but that leads to my next point...

-The Last Jedi felt more like a finale and less like the middle part of the trilogy.  I think they have an engaging cast and new characters but with the big three gone and the villain issue, I just don't see the anticipation being that strong for the third movie (although of course it will do massive business).

-Speaking of which, I have absolutely no faith that JJ will deliver with Episode 9.  He has his moments but he's not really that talented of a filmmaker.

-The Snoke situation...oh boy.  Again, the idea of the Darth Vader figure killing the Emperor and taking over is an intriguing one except when it's not.  Kylo had a good opening sequence and I liked his interaction with Rey.  But his character is a whiny little bitch and I can't take him leading the First Order seriously.  People in the audience started laughing when he was yelling at Luke at the end.  He's not a strong villain.  Snoke came across as a more interesting one before his death.  We never get the backstory of his character (and the whole Knights of Ren thing is completely annoyed) and I don't want to hear that we never got the backstory of the Emperor.  That might be true but times have changed now (and the Emperor was much better to begin with).  Replacing Snoke with whiny Kylo isn't a win for this story.

-It also bothers me greatly that the Skywalker/Solo lineage will end with Kylo Ren.  I wish Han and Leia would have had another kid at least so Kylo won't be their legacy.  Star Wars IS the story of the Skywalker family and when you decide to do a sequel trilogy, it's the Skywalker family you should be following.  Let Rian's future trilogy focus on something else.

On the subject of the story, what I would have went with is The First Order and The Resistance fighting for power after The Force Awakens.  The Resistance is small and the New Republic and most of the fleet have been wiped out.  But at the same time, The First Order lost a massive and expensive resource with Starkiller Base.  They shouldn't be in great shape either.  I would have both groups try to consolidate their forces.  I can see The First Order gaining support from disloyal and opportunistic Republic worlds or ones who were Imperial loyalists while I can see The Resistance gather the remnants of the New Republic fleet to mount a counterattack.  To me, this is what the military storyline should have been focused around.

The loss of Carrie Fisher and the Leia character is definitely going to hurt the next movie.

Edited December 18, 2017 by benteen

[Frost]

1 hour ago, anna0852 said:

I certainly didn't mean to imply that there's any sort of discrimination against certain force-users.

No worries!  I just thought it was a very interesting distinction that the Harry Potter universe has rude nicknames for these groups and Star Wars doesn't.

[anna0852]

That is an interesting observation. I think part of it was the Jedi were just held in such Universal respect that it wouldn't occur to people to say rude things. And because of the no relationship rule with the Jedi the idea of inherited power versus genetic mutation hasn't really come up yet either. But of course the funniest piece to this whole concept is that Bill Weasley is playing Hux.