Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[VCRTracking]

2 minutes ago, Cirien said:

3 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Ah, that's good context.... thank you.  But both Rey and Finn also had extremely difficult backgrounds with extremely negative influences in their lives, and very little good, but they made different choices when it mattered.  

Oh absolutely. As I said he had his mother and father ( I mean Han may be a scoundrel but he's a good man) and he also had his damn uncle there who helped bring down the emperor and bring a sith back to the light? For him to start idolising his grandfather as a sith and wanting to be like him, says he was always inclined towards sociopathy ( which maybe but he clearly has some fondness for his parents and Rey) but also, it's more likely he wanted to be special like his grandfather ( which given what Rey's now backstory  apparently is - and I still think there's more to that story since no matter how hard I try I can't make it mesh with what we saw in TFA- gives them another connection) I do think it should have been ,made explicit though, if it doesn't justify his actions

People are complaining about how Rian Johnson ruined "FinnRey" in favor of "Reylo" when in fact it's clear he effectively killed the latter and strengthened the former. Rey already went through her "Bad boy" phase and learns he'll never change and now she's ready for an actual "nice guy". Finn now knows there are other people interested in him and is less obsessed with Rey which is a better position for him to be in.

[ulkis]

5 hours ago, Cirien said:

And most importantly you have both Kylo and Snoke reacting very strongly to the news that "a girl" had helped the droid. ( doesn't Kylo in the novelisation say "It *is* you" when he sees her?- )

I went to check, he doesn't. In fact, it says: 

"His brows drew together and a reluctance to believe his own findings colored his comments. 

'Is it true, then? You're nothing special after all? You're just a - Jakku scavenger?'"

it also has this though (during Rey's vision of Cloud City):

"A boy appeared at the end of the hallway. She started towards him, and the world turned inside out, causing her to trip and fall."

Another part of her vision:

"Then behind her, another voice. That voice.

'Stay here. I'll come back for you.'

She whirled, glazed eyes desperately scanning the dark gaps between the slender trees, trying to penetrate the darkness.

'Where are you?' She started running towards the voice.

'I'll come back, sweetheart. I promise.'

'I'm here! I'm right here! Where are you?'" 

[Cirien]

34 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I went to check, he doesn't. In fact, it says: 

"His brows drew together and a reluctance to believe his own findings colored his comments. 

'Is it true, then? You're nothing special after all? You're just a - Jakku scavenger?'"

it also has this though (during Rey's vision of Cloud City):

"A boy appeared at the end of the hallway. She started towards him, and the world turned inside out, causing her to trip and fall."

Another part of her vision:

"Then behind her, another voice. That voice.

'Stay here. I'll come back for you.'

She whirled, glazed eyes desperately scanning the dark gaps between the slender trees, trying to penetrate the darkness.

'Where are you?' She started running towards the voice.

'I'll come back, sweetheart. I promise.'

'I'm here! I'm right here! Where are you?'" 

Well that's interesting..... maybe it's my reluctance to let of the Rey is Skywalker/Kenobi theory but couldn't that suggest that Kylo has been told something which isn't true? 

 

And I struggle to see how that line- fits in the idea that her parents sold her for beer money but hey 

[calliope1975]

13 hours ago, AshleyN said:

Hmm, this is clearly a case where mileage simply varies because I didn't find this to be cynical or nihilistic at all. On the contrary, despite how dark it got at times*, I found it to ultimately be an incredibly hopeful film.

I started crying walking to my car (because I am a super cool person) because it was the first time I've felt hopeful all year since the Women's March. 

[Ravenya003]

On 21/12/2017 at 8:23 AM, ulkis said:

I went to check, he doesn't. In fact, it says: 

"His brows drew together and a reluctance to believe his own findings colored his comments. 

'Is it true, then? You're nothing special after all? You're just a - Jakku scavenger?'"

it also has this though (during Rey's vision of Cloud City):

"A boy appeared at the end of the hallway. She started towards him, and the world turned inside out, causing her to trip and fall."

Another part of her vision:

"Then behind her, another voice. That voice.

'Stay here. I'll come back for you.'

She whirled, glazed eyes desperately scanning the dark gaps between the slender trees, trying to penetrate the darkness.

'Where are you?' She started running towards the voice.

'I'll come back, sweetheart. I promise.'

'I'm here! I'm right here! Where are you?'" 

Their final confrontation in Alan Foster's novelisation, just after Rey calls Luke's lightsabre to her hand, has Kylo whisper: "so it IS you," suggesting that he knows who she is. Of course, this line didn't make it into the final cut of the movie, and it now makes no sense whatsoever in the book itself. 

On 21/12/2017 at 6:21 AM, VCRTracking said:

People are complaining about how Rian Johnson ruined "FinnRey" in favor of "Reylo" when in fact it's clear he effectively killed the latter and strengthened the former. Rey already went through her "Bad boy" phase and learns he'll never change and now she's ready for an actual "nice guy". Finn now knows there are other people interested in him and is less obsessed with Rey which is a better position for him to be in.

I agree, and it's why I'm pretty baffled by some of the responses I've seen. Quick disclaimer: people should be able to ship whatever they want without being harassed for it, and I do objectively see the appeal of Kylo/Rey as a standard "Beauty and the Beast" narrative - but that Reylo fans are counting this movie as a win for their ship is utterly bewildering to me. EVERYTHING that happened between them was misdirection! The whole thing was trolling on a massive scale! Their psychic bond? A manipulation from Snoke. Their conversations about Kylo's backstory? Designed to lull the audience into believing the famous Luke/Vader/Emperor confrontation would play out to the same end between Rey/Kylo/Snoke. The reason Kylo kills Snoke? Not to save Rey's life, but to seize power for himself. Then he tries to bring Rey over to his side with a classic negging technique ("no one cares about you except me") before turning on her utterly (framing her for Snoke's death, opening fire on the Falcon, telling Luke he's going to destroy her). Finally Rey severs their connection once and for all, realizing there's nothing more she can (or wants to) do for him. 

I mean... that's the correct reading of the whole thing, right? It's not just me? NOTHING about their interactions was real - heck, it's part of the reason I didn't really like it. This plot forced Rey into the OOC role of wannabe saviour simply in service of pulling a fast one on the audience. All that setup only existed in order to subvert audience expectations and say "gotcha!" when we learn Kylo has no interest whatsoever in turning back to the Light, and never did (that ship sailed when he killed Han). 

I won't pretend to know what's going to happen in the last movie, but I seriously doubt that Abrams will go back to the "can Kylo be redeemed?" well for the THIRD time. Even though the way Rian made his point was a bit too cute (and stretched out), I personally think it's a powerful statement to say that sometimes you can't save people (especially if they don't want to be saved) and you can't just keep giving second chances to violent, deranged, petty mass-murderers. Kylo's soul is not more important than everyone else's lives. 

He's not the new Darth Vader, he's the new Emperor, and nothing remains now but to defeat him. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Ravenya003

[AshleyN]

Regarding the discussion of Snoke from earlier, I'd agree that the lack of context regarding the rise of the First Order is probably the biggest weakness in the revival thus far*. I get why Johnson made the decision to just off him though. Snoke was a really dull character basically dumped in his lap and rather than devoting time to exploring the past of a non-essential character he decided there was enough going on already and chose to cut out that piece of fat entirely. It didn't bother me, but I can see why it would others.

The other thing I like about getting rid of Snoke this early is that in a way it strips away Kylo's excuses. In a lot of ways Kylo feels like a very modern villain, who reflects aspects of our current society. I remember after The Force Awakens there was talk here about how he seemed to resemble modern school shooter, and with everything going on in America and the world right now I can't help but think of all those profiles of contemporary fascists and the alt-right and how many of them seem to come from very comfortable middle or upper class backgrounds, only to have somehow developed an incredible resentment toward a world that gave them so many advantages. And the fact is, no matter how many explanations you come up with for why he is the way he is, at his core Kylo Ren is a child of immense privilege, who was given every advantage in the world, and threw it all away to become a Space Nazi. Removing Snoke from the equation places the burden of responsibility for Kylo's actions squarely on Kylo himself, rather than the disfigured, alien "other" figure.

 

*I think Abrams is more to blame here though. There's something to be said for jumping right into the story, but I think he probably should have done more to bridge the gap between where Return of the Jedi ended and where we pick up in The Force Awakens. But this is really where the difference in his and Johnson's styles shows most clearly. That sort of slowly revealed mystery is Abrams' bread and butter, what he built his career on in large part: leaving a trail of breadcrumbs for the fans to tie themselves in knots trying to follow. Johnson clearly doesn't care too much about that stuff, and is much more interested in exploring broader themes and characterization. And while I don't really have anything against Abrams-style mysteries (I was a fan of both Alias and Lost), the way that "fan theory" culture seems to have taken over so much of the discourse surrounding film and television and pop culture in general is something that's come to bother me more and more, which is probably why I found Johnson's decision to throw all that out the window (or, you know, off a cliff) refreshing rather than frustrating.

Edited December 20, 2017 by AshleyN

[Silver Raven]

13 minutes ago, doram said:

If they wanted the new trilogy to focus on people outside the Skywalker family, couldn't they have just made Rey a non-Skywalker from the start? Finn crashes into Jakku, meets this random scavenger girl with her own unique history whose felt the pull of the Force all her life, and gone on adventures with her? 

Rian Johnson said he was given carte blanche to take the story in whatever direction he wanted to take it, so there was no overarching goal.

[VCRTracking]

24 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

I mean... that's the correct reading of the whole thing, right? It's not just me? NOTHING about their interactions was real - heck, it's part of the reason I didn't really like it. This plot forced Rey into the OOC role of wannabe saviour simply in service of pulling a fast one on the audience. All that setup only existed in order to subvert audience expectations and say "gotcha!" when we learn Kylo has no interest whatsoever in turning back to the Light, and never did (that ship sailed when he killed Han). 

They both had visions of each other standing together but interpreted it differently. Kylo believed she would join him after killing Snoke and together would bring order to the galaxy. Rey believed she would succeed just like Luke and turn Kylo back to the light. Both were wrong.

There's a great article describing the deleted scenes.

One of them shows Luke's third and final lesson. I like it because it proved a point that the old Jedi ways of not getting personally involved suck and should be discarded but I get why it was cut because it made Luke too much of an asshole, but reading about it I would understand Rey being fed up with him and concluding that the "legend" of Luke Skywalker really is just legend. Enough to think it was all his fault Ben is the way he is and that she can fix it.

There's also a deleted part where Rose calls out Finn's obsession with Rey on Canto Bight.

Edited December 20, 2017 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

6 minutes ago, doram said:

They probably cut it because it didn't make sense. Luke never agreed with the old Jedi ways of not getting personally involved. Basically, the movie turned Luke = Obi-Wan to push Kylo's story.

That was the point Luke was teaching was Rey. That her instinct to save people was right and the old Jedi way of doing nothing because you wouldn't be solving the problem in the long run is wrong. It's probably why slavery still existed outside the Republic even with Jedi around. It's the way Luke taught that lesson that was dickish.

Edited December 20, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Cirien]

20 minutes ago, Silver Raven said:

Rian Johnson said he was given carte blanche to take the story in whatever direction he wanted to take it, so there was no overarching goal.

Which.....his film is the middle of a *trilogy* like he has a duty to make sure that certain things make sense ( As does Disney) . 

[VCRTracking]

20 minutes ago, doram said:

24 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

That was the point Luke was teaching was Rey. That her instinct to save people was right and the Jedi way of doing nothing even though you wouldn't be solving the problem in the long run is wrong. It's probably why slavery existed outside the Republic even with Jedi around. The way Luke taught that lesson was what was dickish.

Why would he need to teach her something she already knew? 

The movie was trying to make Luke another Yoda and forget that there was a method to Yoda's madness.

He was trying to teach her the reasons the Jedi should end.

13 minutes ago, Cirien said:

Which.....his film is the middle of a *trilogy* like he has a duty to make sure that certain things make sense ( As does Disney) .

Did The Empire Strikes Back make sense at the time? It totally upended things in the first movie.

Edited December 20, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Browncoat]

Just got back from seeing it again, and it's even better the second time around. 

Things I missed the first time: 

Hux (or someone) saying that the Rebel ships are smaller and faster, so the larger First Order ships can't catch them.  They just have to keep them reasonably close and wait until their fuel runs out.  Which answers some of the comments above.

Luke, when he was on the verge of killing Ben, saying that Snoke already had too much of a hold on Ben, and that's why Luke was tempted to kill him.  So we know for sure, from the movie, that Snoke has been in mind-touch with Ben for a while, and thus Ben/Kylo is probably not redeemable.  Which answers some other comments above.

I paid more attention to Hux after Kylo took over -- unless Kylo is looking directly at him, Hux has a murderous gleam in his eye.  Kylo better sleep with one eye open.

Yoda saying that Rey already has everything she needs from the tree/temple/books.  He knew the books were on the Falcon, and that's why he didn't hesitate to burn the tree down like Luke did.  At that point, I don't think Luke knew the books were gone.  How they got to the Falcon, though, is a question that probably won't be answered.

And I paid more attention to Luke at the end -- of course all the clues were there that he was a projection!  I just didn't notice them the first time.  But knowing Luke was going to die didn't make it any easier to take.  I was less overly sad at all of Leia's scenes, though, than I was the first time I saw it.

I also don't think Holdo knew what she was going to do until she did it.  I have no issue with her not telling Poe the plan.  Not all information is for all people, although based on his past behaviour, she should have known he wouldn't take being left out well.

I think I'm ready to see it a third time to see what else I missed!

ETA one more thing -- I actually thought about this the first time, and I understand that the way it happened was just to get Finn and Rose together, but that still could have happened if Finn had set the speeder thing on a direct course for the battering cannon and then ejected out.  Or maybe the speeder didn't have an auto-pilot?  Still, he was close enough that it likely would have stayed on course after he got out.  Rose still could have rescued him, and  probably neither would be near death.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Browncoat

[ulkis]

More for the, "well if Rey was meant to be unrelated, no one told the author of the novelization" pile:

"Standing at the foot of the ramp, an uncertain and uneasy Leia found herself fiddling with the seals on the front of the jacket Rey was wearing. Foolish nonsense, she told herself even as she continued. Unworthy of her status and position. But it felt so right, and so natural, to be doing so."

Not that I would go by the novelization, I just find it amusing.

Edited December 20, 2017 by ulkis

[anna0852]

Between the hints dropped in TFA and the novelization of such (Alan Dean Foster wrote using a TFA script!) I think someone (Rian!) made the consious decision to drop the plotline. And I don't like it. Those hints weren't subtle AT ALL. Whether Rey is the child of Luke or Leia wasn't clear but there were BIG hints that she was Skywalker and I see TLJ as willfully ignoring a large part of their set up. And I liked the movie!

[Danny Franks]

I really enjoyed this movie. But it was a bit slow in parts, and in need of some editing. Particularly the pointless Benicio Del Toro and the half-baked plot with Finn and Rose going to the casino. They could have sped up the climax a little, without losing much impact. Finn and Rose seemed to spend an age waiting to be executed.

There have been reviews that talk about the unabashed anti-establishment nature of this movie, and I can totally see where they're coming from. While Star Wars has always been about the rebels fighting the rulers, it was hit particularly hard this time around. There was a very modern sensibility to it, and I really liked it. I need to hear and see people saying, 'we can stand up and fight. And we can win, because we're righteous'.

As I was watching, I found  myself uncomfortably aware that the movie was sure to adhere to the trope of being darker than the first.  And for a while I was definitely concerned that they were going to go in the ruinous direction of Dark Rey. It was well teased, and the stuff with her and Kylo Ren frustrated the fuck out of me right up to the end. Because if not Dark Rey, they were teasing Redeemed Ren,  and that was just not on.

That shithead killed his father. Has no regrets, almost killed his mother and showed no regret when he thought one of his wingmen had. And he tried his best to kill Luke, but ended up looking like the angry, twisted, pathetic little boy he still is. But I was pleased that something I predicted after the first movie, that he would kill Snoke and take his place as the big bad, happened. Because Snoke was underwhelming, and just seemed too much of a smug know-it-all to be the main villain. And now Kylo Ren is decidedly not redeemable (he never was, but some disagreed). He cemented his turn, absolutely.

Anyway, Rey is awesome, even if way too gullible in falling for the idea that she could turn Kylo Ren back to the light. Daisy Ridley has a wonderful presence, looks great doing the action scenes, brings all the right emotional beats, and has really nice comic timing and delivery too. She really is the heart of these movies.

I loved the nostalgic callbacks. Yoda showing up, and being his cantankerous self (and I cannot explain how much I loved that they animated him to look and move like Puppet Yoda and not CGI Yoda), Luke and Chewie reuniting. But I genuinely got choked up when R2 played that old message for Luke. Because Carrie passed away, and because that's the message that started it all, and because you just knew it would change Luke's mind.

That he was only a projection when facing Kylo Ren was a great twist. I was not expecting it, i was expecting an Obi Wan sacrifice.... which we got anyway, when Luke faded into nothing. But it was much nicer to do it this way, far more satisfying. As soon as the projection trick was revealed, I realised that they'd had Luke do nothing but taunt Kylo Ren and dodge him. But it immediately explained how he got in to the base, how he was immune to the gunfire, and how Kylo Ren didn't sense him.

And Mark Hamill was fantastic in this movie. Old, jaded, bitter Luke felt natural. Earned. I didn't need to know everything that had happened, to believe this version of him. He was very much the "crazy old wizard" that Uncle Owen labelled Obi Wan, and it fit like a glove.

I did not like Space Leia. That bit was just... wrong. It felt like something from an inferior franchise, and really took me out of the movie. I could pick a few more holes if I wanted. But I don't want to, because that was a really fun movie experience.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Danny Franks

[Browncoat]

28 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

oda showing up, and being his cantankerous self (and I cannot explain how much I loved that they animated him to look and move like Puppet Yoda and not CGI Yoda),

It was puppet Yoda!

[Danny Franks]

3 minutes ago, Browncoat said:

It was puppet Yoda!

They actually used a puppet? Well that's even better. CGI Yoda never felt as real as the puppet.

[Lantern7]

21 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

They actually used a puppet? Well that's even better. CGI Yoda never felt as real as the puppet.

Am I weird for liking Yoda fighting Christopher Lee at the end of Ep2? "Chew bubblegum and kick ass, I have come. Out of bubblegum, I am!" But yeah, sometimes less is more.

[raven]

I don't consider Rey thinking she could save Kylo to be OOC. 

She's an independent, caring individual - she didn't hesitate to help BB-8 in TFA when she didn't have to.   She's recently become aware that she can use the mythical force.  Her world has gotten bigger.  She has found a group to belong with and has had a great adventure.  She meets a legendary figure and he rejects her (what???)

Into all this comes this mind connection with the guy she considers a monster - yet he's quiet, sympathetic, also doesn't understand their connection and also alone.  Being an empathetic person who knows herself pretty well, she continues the discussions - this is a new part of the force, she is learning, she is confident in herself and Luke is not working with her.  Maybe she is overconfident, maybe she is somewhat relieved to have another force user who is listening to her, maybe she starts to think that Snoke is really the worst and she can save Kylo and together they can physically save everyone. 

The best part for me is when she realizes that he is beyond redemption, she literally closes that door and turns to her true friends.  I think her believing she could save him and the way she accepts that she cannot is more indicative of her strength really. 

8 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

People are complaining about how Rian Johnson ruined "FinnRey" in favor of "Reylo" when in fact it's clear he effectively killed the latter and strengthened the former. Rey already went through her "Bad boy" phase and learns he'll never change and now she's ready for an actual "nice guy". Finn now knows there are other people interested in him and is less obsessed with Rey which is a better position for him to be in.

I never saw a romantic connection with Rey and Kylo and until TLJ didn't really see a romantic connection with her and Finn either.  I do now see it now though.  I know TPTB can't help themselves with all these attractive people running around but sometimes just being friends is okay.

[dkb]

I just wanted to say how nice it is in these forums. People can disagree about this movie without all the stupid stuff that goes around on Twitter.

I like reading other opinions and seeing things a different way then I did.

 

Also thanks to the people who are adding stuff from the novels, that stuff is really interesting.

[VCRTracking]

51 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Am I weird for liking Yoda fighting Christopher Lee at the end of Ep2? "Chew bubblegum and kick ass, I have come. Out of bubblegum, I am!" But yeah, sometimes less is more.

I liked it too. The CGI version was at least better than the puppet they used in TPM(which is now replaced) It did not look right. The problem was they used silicone for the skin, which was what had been used in animatronics in the 90s instead of the foam latex in the original.

[MisterGlass]

20 hours ago, AshleyN said:

Hmm, this is clearly a case where mileage simply varies because I didn't find this to be cynical or nihilistic at all. On the contrary, despite how dark it got at times*, I found it to ultimately be an incredibly hopeful film.

I agree this film ends on a hopeful note, and that it makes sense for a middle film to introduce further conflict.  However, between TFA and TLJ they have dashed the achievements of the original trilogy characters and made most of their lives bitter, empty, and meaningless.  It is possible to be older and world weary and still have advanced a cause.  There was a middle ground out there for my beloved original trilogy friends.  Just having Kylo turn would have been conflict enough. 

13 hours ago, SNeaker said:

Rey became a junkie hooked on spices

Well he who controls the spice controls the universe. 

[Morrigan2575]

26 minutes ago, MisterGlass said:

Well he who controls the spice controls the universe. 

Excellent quote!

[galaxygirl76]

For what it's worth:

Quote

 

An angry fanboy told HuffPost he used bots to flood Rotten Tomatoes with negative reviews of the new “Star Wars” movie.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/rotten-tomatoes-last-jedi-ratings-bots_us_5a38cb78e4b0860bf4aab5b1

 

[SNeaker]

2 hours ago, dkb said:

I just wanted to say how nice it is in these forums. People can disagree about this movie without all the stupid stuff that goes around on Twitter.

I like reading other opinions and seeing things a different way then I did.

 

Also thanks to the people who are adding stuff from the novels, that stuff is really interesting.

Yes, I've wanted to hug this forum for a few days. Even the people I disagree with are disagreeing in thoughtful, respectful ways that recognize we all just have different interpretations and perspectives.

Edited December 21, 2017 by SNeaker

[tennisgurl]

I just got back from the movie (after desperately avoiding spoilers since Friday), and over all, I enjoyed it. I will need to read through more responses and think more on the movie, but I like what they did with this, and I really didn't see a lot of the plot coming, which I appreciated. Until I can think of a more articulate response, here are some random thoughts I had. 

Leia using the force to escape the vacuum of space was ridiculous, but rather awesome. I also liked seeing her relationship with Poe, and the kind of mentor/parental substitute thing they have going on. After her own messed up excuse for a son, she was probably happy to bond with a young man who isn't actually a piece of crap. 

I think its kind of annoying how much they built up the mystery of who Reys parents were, if they're just random losers who are dead now anyway. On the other hand, I like the fact that she is just a normal person, and that everything in this whole galaxy isn't focused around this one freaking family. I also thought the connection she had with Kylo Ren was interesting, but I didn't see anything super shippy happening. Ren seems like she is all kinds of over him. 

I love Laura Dern, so I was super happy to see her here, even if her whole plot could have been solved quite easily by just telling Poe her plan. She had no real reason not to tell him she knew what she was doing, even if she only gave him some slight idea of what she was planning of she felt it had to be a secret. On the other hand, I did like Poe getting more development, and Oscar Issac is just so freaking dashing. Like, my God. 

I liked Rose, and I liked that Finn had a more serious role in this one, but I thought his whole plot was clearly padding. It wasn't awful (I liked some of the world building and the idea of the rebellion as a beacon of hope with the kids) or anything, but I felt like it could easily have been trimmed. Also, the part where Rose kissed Finn seemed pretty out of nowhere, and seemed pointless. I did like that they kept up his connection with Rey, even if they only saw each other at the end. 

Puppet Yoda returns! As the grumpy but wise Muppet we all know and love! That, and the repeat of the original message from Leia, were probably my favorite nastalgia moments of the movie. 

I have yet to fully get my feelings about Luke in this movie straightened out, but Mark Hamill was amazing. He nailed every moment, and despite him being a VERY different guy from the kid from the first movies, I still bought that this was an older, jaded, Luke haunted by his mistakes and struggles. And that ending scene where he looks at the two suns setting, with the original music blasting, just like he did back in A New Hope, as a simple farm kid on a backwater planet, was amazing. 

I kind of admire them killing off the supposed big bad, but I also think its kind of a waste of a character. 

I want to take home those adorable ice foxes. And those adorable penguin things. And the adorable horse camels. I want them to come home with me. 

I thought the ending, while dark, still had a lot of hope to it. The whole series has taken on a general theme of finding hope in the darkness, and keeping up the fight no matter the odds. The ending had the rebellion decimated, but not beaten, and you see the kids spreading the word of the rebellion, and that even when things are going badly, you have to keep going and hope it means something. It reminded me a bit of the ending of Rouge One, which I really loved. It was bittersweet what happened to the characters, but I left the theater feeling hope that they sacrificed for a greater cause. and find meaning in their lives. I thought this was similar. 

[Zuleikha]

Into all this comes this mind connection with the guy she considers a monster - yet he's quiet, sympathetic, also doesn't understand their connection and also alone.  Being an empathetic person who knows herself pretty well, she continues the discussions - this is a new part of the force, she is learning, she is confident in herself and Luke is not working with her.  Maybe she is overconfident, maybe she is somewhat relieved to have another force user who is listening to her, maybe she starts to think that Snoke is really the worst and she can save Kylo and together they can physically save everyone.

If TFA hadn't happened--or at least hadn't happened so recently---I would buy that. But Kylo already tried to force a connection with Rey to be solidly literally and symbolically rejected by him. There was no grounds for any interest or wavering on her part. She had already ended her solitude and found friends through the Resistance. She had just seen Kylo murder Han Solo as Han was offering Kylo love and comfort. We know from the timeline with the Resistance storyline that this was all happening in a short span of time, very close to the end of TFA. 

So sure Snoke was forcing a connection, but Kylo had nothing to offer her and he didn't really do anything to give her reason to believe he would turn either. Her only reason for believing it was the vision (presumably of them fighting Snoke's guards) when their hands touched after the cave. But the movie portrayed her as feeling a bond--and I'd argue either sexual or romantic tension--before that. To me, that is simply not consistent with Rey's character OR her storyline as established in TFA.

It's also just silly to me as an audience member. With the exception perhaps of Reylo shippers, no one left TFA clamoring for Kylo Ren's redemption. The only question from TFA was exactly how Kylo Ren was going to become the big bad and what his goals are/what it would mean for him to be the big bad. Meanwhile, Rey was left fairly calm and confident in herself as a newly realized Force user. The main question for Rey was how would she use the Force going forward and what kind of relationship would she have with Luke (and would she get pulled to the Dark side of the Force through ignorance or some other means). TLJ essentially treaded water by redoing the end of TFA

[Cirien]

4 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

I agree this film ends on a hopeful note, and that it makes sense for a middle film to introduce further conflict.  However, between TFA and TLJ they have dashed the achievements of the original trilogy characters and made most of their lives bitter, empty, and meaningless.  It is possible to be older and world weary and still have advanced a cause.  There was a middle ground out there for my beloved original trilogy friends.  Just having Kylo turn would have been conflict enough. 

Well he who controls the spice controls the universe. 

Eeeeeee!!!!! fantastic quote there !!!!!

[Jediknight]

7 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Between the hints dropped in TFA and the novelization of such (Alan Dean Foster wrote using a TFA script!) I think someone (Rian!) made the consious decision to drop the plotline. And I don't like it. Those hints weren't subtle AT ALL. Whether Rey is the child of Luke or Leia wasn't clear but there were BIG hints that she was Skywalker and I see TLJ as willfully ignoring a large part of their set up. And I liked the movie!

I don't think it's dropped.  I think Kylo was lying.  Keep in mind there was one question asked by Luke in this movie, that never got a legit answer, why did Leia send Rey.  I don't think it's dropped, Disney wouldn't allow that build to go to nothing, it's Kylo lying.

[Joe]

41 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

I don't think it's dropped.  I think Kylo was lying.  Keep in mind there was one question asked by Luke in this movie, that never got a legit answer, why did Leia send Rey.

At least in part, because she can use the Force. Takes a thief/Jedi to catch/recruit a Jedi?

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Jediknight said:

8 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Between the hints dropped in TFA and the novelization of such (Alan Dean Foster wrote using a TFA script!) I think someone (Rian!) made the consious decision to drop the plotline. And I don't like it. Those hints weren't subtle AT ALL. Whether Rey is the child of Luke or Leia wasn't clear but there were BIG hints that she was Skywalker and I see TLJ as willfully ignoring a large part of their set up. And I liked the movie!

I don't think it's dropped.  I think Kylo was lying.  Keep in mind there was one question asked by Luke in this movie, that never got a legit answer, why did Leia send Rey.  I don't think it's dropped, Disney wouldn't allow that build to go to nothing, it's Kylo lying.

Rian Johnson on the subject:
 

Quote

 

So, can I just make the statement, that’s who her parents are? They came from nothing, they’re buried in the desert, is that for sure?

RIAN JOHNSON: That’s what Kylo sees and that’s what he tells her and I think he’s not lying in that moment. That’s what he saw and she seems to believe it when she hears it. I don’t want to … I’m not writing the next film, we’ll see how they handle it going forward, and as we all know in these movies, there’s always a certain point of view that’s involved. But, for me, I’ll tell you that was the … I can understand why that answer doesn’t feel good. It’s not supposed to feel good. It’s supposed to be the hardest thing she could possibly hear in that moment.

The same way that if you think about … if you go back to Vader telling Luke, “I am your father.” That was effective, not because it was a surprise, because it was a twist, I think it was effective because that’s the hardest thing both Luke and the audience could hear in that moment. It turns it from the … it takes away the easy answer is basically. It takes it from, yes, Vader is just a bad guy we hate and we want to die, into, wait a minute, Vader is actually a part of our protagonist, he has a connection to him, and we have to think about him in a more complicated way, in a way that may involve redemption. That doesn’t feel great. That’s like, Mark’s amazing heartfelt, “No,” in reaction to that is the correct response.

In this movie, the easiest thing that, the wish fulfillment for Rey and for the audience, would be, “Yes, you are so and so’s daughter. Yes, here is your place in this movie. Here is how you fit in. Problem solved.” I can understand why Rey would desperately want that and why us, we as an audience, do too. But the hardest … but we’re not here to give Rey an easy time, we’re here to put her on the hard path so that she has to … because that’s the path of a hero. And the hardest thing she could hear is, “You’re not gonna get that easy answer. You’re going to [inaudible 00:02:41] not going to be defined by your lineage in this. You’re going to have to stand on your own two feet and to find yourself. And, not only that, Kylo is going to use the fact that you don’t have that to stand on to try and get you to lean on him in this moment. And you’re going to have to find the strength within yourself to define yourself in this world.” And that’s hard. It needs to be hard. It should be hard.”

 

There's enough wiggle room for JJ Abrams to reverse it and say "No wait you are actually _______" in Episode IX. Lucas left it completely open in The Empire Strikes Back to the possibility that Vader was lying to Luke about being his father and kids debated it in schoolyards for the next three years until it was confirmed as true Return of the Jedi. Abrams can still make Rey's parents whoever.

I'm of the belief that even though her parents might be just drunk junk dealers, she's still isn't "nobody". The Force awakened her in for a reason. She's a prodigy level Force user for a reason. Kylo's purpose in the grand scheme of things was to destroy Snoke just like his grandfather's was to destroy Palpatine. Rey's purpose is to destroy Kylo Ren.

Edited December 21, 2017 by VCRTracking

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

If TFA hadn't happened--or at least hadn't happened so recently---I would buy that. But Kylo already tried to force a connection with Rey to be solidly literally and symbolically rejected by him. There was no grounds for any interest or wavering on her part. She had already ended her solitude and found friends through the Resistance. She had just seen Kylo murder Han Solo as Han was offering Kylo love and comfort. We know from the timeline with the Resistance storyline that this was all happening in a short span of time, very close to the end of TFA. 

So sure Snoke was forcing a connection, but Kylo had nothing to offer her and he didn't really do anything to give her reason to believe he would turn either. Her only reason for believing it was the vision (presumably of them fighting Snoke's guards) when their hands touched after the cave. But the movie portrayed her as feeling a bond--and I'd argue either sexual or romantic tension--before that. To me, that is simply not consistent with Rey's character OR her storyline as established in TFA.

Sure Kylo tried to force a connection with Rey in the last movie and she rejected him.  He didn't try to force one in this movie aside from being desperately open to one.  Rey is strong in the Force.  So she could sense and even feel Kylo's pain, fear, grief and loneliness.  When you can literally feel that from someone, it becomes a lot harder to hate them.  He never betrayed her or lied to her either.  It's pretty clear that his idea was that he'd bring her to Snoke so that Snoke would train Rey as well and Kylo would get a sister/lover/partner in the Force.  Except that Snoke was a vile, manipulative bastard who cared more about finishing off Luke Skywalker than about what Kylo wanted and needed.  So Kylo killed his ass right there.  And then pleaded with Rey to stay with him. 

[Danny Franks]

13 hours ago, johntfs said:

Sure Kylo tried to force a connection with Rey in the last movie and she rejected him.  He didn't try to force one in this movie aside from being desperately open to one.  Rey is strong in the Force.  So she could sense and even feel Kylo's pain, fear, grief and loneliness.  When you can literally feel that from someone, it becomes a lot harder to hate them.  He never betrayed her or lied to her either.  It's pretty clear that his idea was that he'd bring her to Snoke so that Snoke would train Rey as well and Kylo would get a sister/lover/partner in the Force.  Except that Snoke was a vile, manipulative bastard who cared more about finishing off Luke Skywalker than about what Kylo wanted and needed.  So Kylo killed his ass right there.  And then pleaded with Rey to stay with him. 

... And to let the Resistance die, because he wasn't prepared to tell Hux to stop firing. To let everything die, except the two of them.

Kylo Ren wasnt looking for a partner in the Force to complete him, he was looking for a partner to help him burn the world down. He was J.D from Heathers, Mickey Knox from Natural Born Killers, Kit from Badlands. The twisted nutter who tries to convince the girl, 'we're all we need baby' so he can justify killing anyone else. He wasnt looking for an equal, he was looking for an enabler.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Danny Franks

[johntfs]

7 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

He wasnt looking for an equal, he was looking for an enabler.

In his mind they're the same thing.

One interesting theme in Star Wars is how in each successive trilogy the characters come off as lesser versions of the previous set.  They don't map perfectly, but you can see the parallels.  Kylo Ren is clearly a "wannabe" Vader.  Hux really wants to be Grand Moff Tarkin.  Snoke thinks he's the new Palpatine, but Palpatine was much smarter and smoother than Snoke.  He certainly wouldn't let his apprentice/servant one-shot him with a telekinetically moved lightsaber.  Poe really wants to be the pilot aspect of Luke Skywalker with a bit of Han Solo thrown in.  He grew up on stories of how Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star.  Finn is kind of Han Solo with a mix-in of Leia.  He's with the Resistance for the oddly selfish reason of caring for Rey, but he still has a nobility of spirit to be willing to crash into the battering cannon to save the others.  Rey has aspects of Luke and Leia.  She has Luke's affinity with the Force combined with Leia's passionate concern for others.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

... And to let the Resistance die, because he wasn't prepared to tell Hux to stop firing. To let everything die, except the two of them.

Kylo Ren wasnt looking for a partner in the Force to complete him, he was looking for a partner to help him burn the world down. He was J.D from Heathers, Mickey Knox from Natural Born Killers, Kit from Badlands. The twisted nutter who tries to convince the girl, 'we're all we need baby' so he can justify killing anyone else. He wasnt looking for an equal, he was looking for an enabler.

This.

I go on Tumblr and all the stuff I read from the Reylo shippers is just so stupid it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable that people would continue to ship them together after this movie showed that Kylo is getting redeemed any time soon. Did Han and Leia mean NOTHING to them?!

[ulkis]

On 12/21/2017 at 7:15 AM, Spartan Girl said:

This.

I go on Tumblr and all the stuff I read from the Reylo shippers is just so stupid it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable that people would continue to ship them together after this movie showed that Kylo is getting redeemed any time soon. Did Han and Leia mean NOTHING to them?!

Han and Leia could mean enough to them they want their son to be redeemable. I don't think he is but I get how people could still want that.

Edited December 25, 2017 by ulkis

[absnow54]

Quote

Kylo Ren wasnt looking for a partner in the Force to complete him, he was looking for a partner to help him burn the world down. He was J.D from Heathers, Mickey Knox from Natural Born Killers, Kit from Badlands. The twisted nutter who tries to convince the girl, 'we're all we need baby' so he can justify killing anyone else. He wasnt looking for an equal, he was looking for an enabler.

I keep seeing comparisons to Pride and Prejudice (because Kylo told Rey that no one likes her, but he can tolerate her...) and Beauty and the Beast (because Kylo is cursed with evil? Even though we saw him consciously choose it multiple times...) and all I can think is "NO! They are obviously living the plot of Heathers!"

Quote

Hux (or someone) saying that the Rebel ships are smaller and faster, so the larger First Order ships can't catch them. They just have to keep them reasonably close and wait until their fuel runs out. Which answers some of the comments above.

I appreciate that this movie tried to explore different military strategies instead of the usual requisite dog fight that Lucas was so fond of, but there was a disconnect between real world limitations and technology that's available in the Star Wars universe. For example, yes, it makes tons of sense that a giant ship couldn't keep up with a smaller more agile one, but the Star Wars universe has light speed, and Hux could have called in support ships to move into positions that would cut the Resistance fleet off. It just feels like the First Order has limitless resources except for the instance where they could use a few more resources. I also want to know when the Star Wars universe is finally going to develop self guided missiles. Like that seems a lot easier than planet busters they've been whipping out every movie.

Edited December 21, 2017 by absnow54

[cambridgeguy]

16 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

There have been reviews that talk about the unabashed anti-establishment nature of this movie, and I can totally see where they're coming from. While Star Wars has always been about the rebels fighting the rulers, it was hit particularly hard this time around. There was a very modern sensibility to it, and I really liked it. I need to hear and see people saying, 'we can stand up and fight. And we can win, because we're righteous'.

The move also made it a point to show that the usual maverick actions we expect to see from rebels are a horrible idea.  Poe, Finn and Rose's entire mission would normally be the thing that would save the fleet from their idiot admiral.  Instead they pretty much got most of the Rebellion killed and the "idiot" admiral actually had the best plan possible given their situation.  In a typical movie Benicio Del Toro's character would have been moved by Finn and Rose - instead, he sold them out when it suited his bottom line.  Even the Gondor calls for aid moment at the end was subverted since not a single person answered the call.

Edited December 21, 2017 by cambridgeguy

[benteen]

On those deleted scenes, would have definitely liked to have seen the final Luke and Rey lesson.  Also the Phasma scene sounded pretty cool.  She was a complete waste in the movies but the book and comic series did a really great job fleshing out the characters, someone who is only concerned with their own survival and therefore has no true loyalty to anyone.

[VCRTracking]

48 minutes ago, benteen said:

On those deleted scenes, would have definitely liked to have seen the final Luke and Rey lesson.  Also the Phasma scene sounded pretty cool.  She was a complete waste in the movies but the book and comic series did a really great job fleshing out the characters, someone who is only concerned with their own survival and therefore has no true loyalty to anyone.

Oh god I would have loved that deleted Phasma scene! Not just for her being a badass with a blaster but Finn mentioning she totally gave up the defense shields of Starkiller base without that much provocation.

[Danny Franks]

Phasma is one of the big disappointments of the new trilogy, for me. She's just... all mouth and no trousers. Looks cool, doesn't do much. I wish they had reconsidered the character, and the scenes they had for her, before release of both movies.

For starters, it absolutely should have been Phasma that Finn fought in The Force Awakens, instead of that random Stormtrooper. And she should have kicked his arse, establishing herself as a worthy nemesis. And then they should not have had her be the one who gets bullied into giving them the Starkiller Base codes. Then, when she reappeared in this movie, it would have meant far more.

I don't know if she's dead, I hope not. But if she returns, she's a bit of a joke as a villain.

To return to Rey for a moment, I love that she got to reenact some of the best bits of both Han and Luke's original trilogy scenes. She faces the bad guy, in an attempt to turn his apprentice, but she also swoops in on the Millenium Falcon, saving Poe and Finn on their bombing run. She's undoubtedly the hero of this story, and in case anyone was still in doubt, she got the iconic moment of force moving all those boulders, just to cap it off. 

Another moment I loved, and one that was one of the most beautifully executed shots I can recall, was when Holdo jumps to lightspeed through Snoke's command ship. Just... stunning.

[Zuleikha]

Kylo Ren wasnt looking for a partner in the Force to complete him, he was looking for a partner to help him burn the world down. He was J.D from Heathers, Mickey Knox from Natural Born Killers, Kit from Badlands. The twisted nutter who tries to convince the girl, 'we're all we need baby' so he can justify killing anyone else. He wasnt looking for an equal, he was looking for an enabler.

Exactly. And this is clear! Kylo Ren's interest in Rey has been clear and consistent. But Rey has no reason to respond to this. She saw into him in TFA and nothing about that appealed to her. IMHO, TLJ didn't do anything to justify why Rey would change on that and certainly didn't communicate it to the audience. Johnson relied entirely on Driver's and Ridley's acting to sell the connection--which, the two of them are amazing talents and sold the heck out of it. Even though I think the Rey/Luke/Kylo Ren stuff was basically a retread of the end of TFA, it was beautifully acted. If that had been all TLJ consisted of (with expanded Luke/Rey training and discussion of Luke's philosophy of the Jedi and the Force), I probably would have enjoyed it simply because of the acting. But that doesn't change that Rey's storyline and character treaded water.

The move also made it a point to show that the usual maverick actions we expect to see from rebels are a horrible idea.  Poe, Finn and Rose's entire mission would normally be the thing that would save the fleet from their idiot admiral.

I've also seen people assert that the point of that storyline was to show the importance of never giving up and fighting through failure. I don't think Johnson really knew what his point was with that. I think he wanted to get to Poe being humbled and learning to listen to other people and establish Finn/Rose as a potential ship alternative to Finn/Rey. I don't think the storyline did establish that maverick actions are a bad idea. I think Finn/Rose were completely reasonable in their actions because Finn's whole character is his loss of trust in the military world in which he was raised and Rose isn't really military. Poe--who ends up leading a mutiny mostly because he doesn't like Holdo--gets rewarded at the end. And the actions that are shown as "right" actions are a bit last-ditch, too. 

Although writing this out, I realized that Finn would have made much more sense in the Poe role and Poe would have made more sense in the Finn role (although I think a better course would have been a different story that didn't involve ignoring the fact that TFA ended with the Resistance triumphant and the First Order in disarray). But at least Finn's character had established characterization to support him not trusting Holdo or wanting to blindly follow orders. Poe's character was exactly the type to do an adventure-based mission.

In a typical movie Benicio Del Toro's character would have been moved by Finn and Rose - instead, he sold them out when it suited his bottom line. 

When Lando betrayed Han, it worked even though Lando was a new character because Empire Strikes Back sold us on Han/Lando having a lengthy friendship. Lando's motivations for the betrayal were also clear as was his immediate guilt/regret.

Nothing about DJ made sense. Was he the real Master Codebreaker? Or just a strange coincidence that despite Maz's insistence that only one Master Codebreaker was available, there were actually two in the same planet. And conveniently the second one was just hanging out in jail, then offered to help for no real reason (money's not a great reason because it seems like he could steal more money than the Resistance could give him, especially to justify the risk). He has no loyalty to Finn/Rose nor they to him. I don't think he's really an a-hole or scummy for selling them out to save his life because again, there is nothing between him and Finn/Rose. So the betrayal is just yet another what's the point of all this? in the Finn/Rose plotline. 

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

When Lando betrayed Han, it worked even though Lando was a new character because Empire Strikes Back sold us on Han/Lando having a lengthy friendship. Lando's motivations for the betrayal were also clear as was his immediate guilt/regret.

Nothing about DJ made sense. Was he the real Master Codebreaker? Or just a strange coincidence that despite Maz's insistence that only one Master Codebreaker was available, there were actually two in the same planet. And conveniently the second one was just hanging out in jail, then offered to help for no real reason (money's not a great reason because it seems like he could steal more money than the Resistance could give him, especially to justify the risk). He has no loyalty to Finn/Rose nor they to him. I don't think he's really an a-hole or scummy for selling them out to save his life because again, there is nothing between him and Finn/Rose. So the betrayal is just yet another what's the point of all this? in the Finn/Rose plotline. 

Maz didn't say her contact was the only master codebreaker out there. She said he was the only other one "she could trust" to do it. Maz herself said she could do it too but was busy with the Union dispute. It makes sense that most codebreakers by their nature would be untrustworthy.

 

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

Quote

Kylo Ren wasnt looking for a partner in the Force to complete him, he was looking for a partner to help him burn the world down. He was J.D from Heathers, Mickey Knox from Natural Born Killers, Kit from Badlands. The twisted nutter who tries to convince the girl, 'we're all we need baby' so he can justify killing anyone else. He wasnt looking for an equal, he was looking for an enabler.

 

Exactly. And this is clear! Kylo Ren's interest in Rey has been clear and consistent. But Rey has no reason to respond to this. She saw into him in TFA and nothing about that appealed to her. IMHO, TLJ didn't do anything to justify why Rey would change on that and certainly didn't communicate it to the audience. Johnson relied entirely on Driver's and Ridley's acting to sell the connection--which, the two of them are amazing talents and sold the heck out of it. Even though I think the Rey/Luke/Kylo Ren stuff was basically a retread of the end of TFA, it was beautifully acted. If that had been all TLJ consisted of (with expanded Luke/Rey training and discussion of Luke's philosophy of the Jedi and the Force), I probably would have enjoyed it simply because of the acting. But that doesn't change that Rey's storyline and character treaded water.

Rey's character is she was abandoned and in denial about it. That makes me understand her actions in TLJ. First she was all about staying on Jakku until her parents returned and eventually had to accept they were never going to. Then she developed Force powers and seemingly found a new purpose so she wants to become a Jedi and train with the great Luke Skywalker. When that doesn't work out the way she thought and discovers theirs more to the story of Kylo Ren and that he is a kindred spirit.

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

I've also seen people assert that the point of that storyline was to show the importance of never giving up and fighting through failure. I don't think Johnson really knew what his point was with that. I think he wanted to get to Poe being humbled and learning to listen to other people and establish Finn/Rose as a potential ship alternative to Finn/Rey. I don't think the storyline did establish that maverick actions are a bad idea. I think Finn/Rose were completely reasonable in their actions because Finn's whole character is his loss of trust in the military world in which he was raised and Rose isn't really military. Poe--who ends up leading a mutiny mostly because he doesn't like Holdo--gets rewarded at the end. And the actions that are shown as "right" actions are a bit last-ditch, too. 

Although writing this out, I realized that Finn would have made much more sense in the Poe role and Poe would have made more sense in the Finn role (although I think a better course would have been a different story that didn't involve ignoring the fact that TFA ended with the Resistance triumphant and the First Order in disarray). But at least Finn's character had established characterization to support him not trusting Holdo or wanting to blindly follow orders. Poe's character was exactly the type to do an adventure-based mission.

 

Quote

Poe had much more standing the Resistance and could lead a mutiny of other officers more than Finn. Poe was also being groomed by Leia to be the next leader of the Resistance and not just a pilot or soldier. The whole thing was about teaching him not to think like a maverick. Poe didn't go for the Resistance but was still more about protecting Rey. It wasn't until going on this adventure with Rose that he fully became part of it.

Edited December 21, 2017 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

9 minutes ago, doram said:

TLJ's revealed that she was sold into slavery, not abandoned.

Okay she was in denial about THAT.

Love this tweet:

[Danny Franks]

I'm not going to take what Kylo Ren said about Rey's parents as being true just yet. Even if Rian Johnson believes it was, the writer of the next movie might disagree. It wouldn't be hard to roll it back, because Kylo Ren is a liar and a manipulator,  who was trying to convince Rey to give up her friends and her hope, to join him in flailing in childish, uncontrolled rage.

But Rey ain't down for that shit. She grew up alone on a desert planet, and still has more fortitude, emotional intelligence, resolve and moral centre than the demon seed of two great people does. And even though I don't necessarily believe Kylo Ren,  it doesn't really matter. Because Rey coming from nothing, with no lineage and no destiny, reinforces the message of this movie, that we don't need to wait for some heroic intervention, we can save ourselves, just by being united and making the right choices when the time comes. Who is she? She's Rey from Nowhere. And she's going to fight the First Order.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Danny Franks

[VCRTracking]

Our Only Look at George Lucas’ Vision for the ‘Star Wars’ Sequel Trilogy

Quote

In the (Art of The Last Jedi) book, we learn that one of the first meetings to visualize The Force Awakens happened on January 16, 2013 at Skywalker Ranch with George Lucas himself. Among the pieces presented at the meeting were portraits of an older Luke Skywalker training a new disciple named Kira (who was later renamed Rey). The idea was that, 30 years after the fall of the Empire, Luke had gone to a dark place and secluded himself in a Jedi temple on a new planet. The paintings show Luke meditating, reassessing his whole life.

 

Although according to this Luke would have been reunited with Han and Leia in Lucas' version.

https://heroichollywood.com/george-lucas-star-wars-last-jedi-idea-luke-skywalker-exile/

Edited December 22, 2017 by VCRTracking

[stealinghome]

I just got back from seeing the movie and my initial reaction is that it was good, but didn't quite land for me emotionally, and I can understand why some people didn't like it. It's a very different type of Star Wars movie and I'll need a few days to process it. That said, it also did a good job of re-setting the board very effectively; you almost feel like they could have another trilogy devoted to bringing down Kylo Ren now.

Things I liked:

-Vice Admiral Holdo. What a badass, and that shot of her jumping to lightspeed through the dreadnought was beautiful. Visually stunning, and that it was done in silence made it so incredibly effective.

-Leia. I liked what this movie did with the character a lot more than TFA, and felt Fisher's performance was stronger (sob). Also, using the Force to save herself from outer space was BADASS. Amazing. It sucks so bad that we won't get to see her in Episode 9. Also, Fisher and Dern sold the hell out of the Leia & Holdo friendship in just a single scene. But I totally bought that those two had been friends for a long, long time.

-The way the movie TOTALLY subverted the "alpha male knows better and his maverick actions save the fleet!" trope. Instead, the alpha male doing his own thing pretty much got the entire fleet killed. At every turn, the movie reinforced the "teamwork is the key to winning" message. In fact, the movie did a great job of subverting or swerving away from expectations in general (like with the shot of Luke's submerged X-wing), which made it a very fun watch--unpredictable as these things go.

-Rose. Wasn't a huge fan of her kiss with Finn (it felt abrupt, I'd much rather see him with Rey, and I can't lie, it kind of feels like they introduced her to block the black man from getting with the white woman lead), but outside of that, I liked the character and enjoyed seeing a more "rank and file" person, continuing Rogue One's trend. On the other hand, I didn't think she was so amazing that I'd miss her if she disappeared from Episode 9.

-Luke's sassy sense of humor. Him brushing the dirt off his shoulder, his first lesson with Rey and the leaf, and his "Jakku? Yeah, that IS pretty close to nowhere" comments were all hilarious.  In fact, in general this movie had great humor. It picked and chose it spots, and so the lines all landed VERY well. The running gag of Rey bedeviling the caretakers and getting bopped in the head with her own lightsaber were personal faves, as was her "I've seen your daily routine! You're really not busy!" to Luke. Hee! And Chewie eating the porg as the other porgs watched in horror! And Yoda's snark. "Missed you I have, young Skywalker" with the vocal equivalent of a huge, fond eyeroll was just hilarious.

-Luke being a Force Projection on the ice planet. SO AWESOME. Also, his last moment with Leia, when they said goodbye. It was so incredibly poignant, especially in light of Carrie Fisher's passing. And Luke's death, finally at peace, in the shadow of the binary suns. That was a lovely, understated moment.

-The crystal foxes. I want one!

-R2's Leia projection from ANH. Again, so poignant.

-That they obviously made an effort to have the Resistance populated with various minority populations, and the two faces of the First Order are spoiled white guys whose emotional development stopped around 4.

Things I didn't:

-The movie was overstuffed and many of the major plotlines ended up feeling a bit underdeveloped. I don't think Rian Johnson knew what overarching story he wanted to tell or effectively prioritized the storylines, and some of the ending scenes lost emotional weight because the build-up wasn't there. This was particularly bad for Finn; it felt to me BOTH like this movie really struggled to find a place for him AND like it gave his storyline way too much screentime relative to Rey's. Like it compensated for not really having a story for him by giving him a ton of face time that never went anywhere. His and Rose's stuff on the gambling planet dragged badly (though I did like the message sent by the Force-sensitive kid with the ring at the end, and yeah, he grabbed the broom with the Force).

-I too felt the movie sacrified Rey's story/made her OOC/did her a disservice to tell Kylo Ren's story (and he is just not nearly as interesting as this movie wanted him to be). The Rey who had just seen Kylo Ren murder his father (who she cared about), maim her best friend, and try to kill her is now going to be the "oh, he's a monster, but I can save him!!!" woman who writes letters to serial killers in jail? Yeah, no. In a couple of different ways, this movie lost sight of the fact that Rey is the primary hero for the new trilogy, and she was left stagnant while both Finn and Poe got arcs (however well they were or were not executed). I also think both Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver struggled with the weak material for their characters at times.

-The showdown in Snoke's chambers. I was pretty underwhelmed. Maybe it's because it was fairly repetitive from TFA, but that should've been epic, and yet fell flat. Ditto for Yoda's appearance. Again, I think that was a function of the movie not being sure what its overarching story was, but while I got a kick out of seeing Yoda, that scene just seemed so random.

Quote

I think it was dumb Holdo told him nothing of her plan. Really, would she have said nothing? Leia sent Poe back out to fight before everything went to hell, she obviously still trusted him. It was a clunky plot point.

Holdo probably didn't tell Poe about her plan because she was fearful that, if his recent behavior was anything to go by, he would immediately go do the exact opposite of what she wanted him to do and burn a bunch of fuel doing something idiotic. (And, I mean...he did go do something massively idiotic, he just didn't burn a ton of fuel doing it.) I'm with those who don't understand why Holdo should be under any obligation to tell him. Poe had just been demoted because he wouldn't follow orders when he felt he had a better plan than the actual leaders. What newly-minted leader would confide their plan in that guy (especially when a plan is admittedly relying on a great deal of luck--which then makes it an even greater bet he'd decide he had a better plan)?

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At that point, I don't think Luke knew the books were gone.  How they got to the Falcon, though, is a question that probably won't be answered.

Yoda probably Force Ghost appeared to one of the caretakers, who snuck them onboard. Chewie obviously wasn't paying the closest of attention to who snuck onto the Falcon....

Edited December 22, 2017 by stealinghome

[Joe]

Right before Rey jumps in the lifepod, we see her closing the drawer with the books in there. So I think she decided to liberate them.

[calliope1975]

17 hours ago, johntfs said:

 And then pleaded with Rey to stay with him. 

I just got back from seeing it for the 2nd time. That sad, quiet "please" at the end of his negging of Rey showed me how torn and lonely Kylo is. He deserves it, because he sucks, but there is, or was, something inside him that, I think, wanted a genuine connection. Also, Adam Driver managed to sell me on that moment,.

11 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Another moment I loved, and one that was one of the most beautifully executed shots I can recall, was when Holdo jumps to lightspeed through Snoke's command ship. Just... stunning.

This time my theater was about 1/4 full, a far cry from the packed fan fest when I first saw it. The reaction to this scene was the same. Stunned quiet followed by a whispered "Holy shit" and "OMG." I teared up at Holdo's sacrifice this time. 

I liked it even more the second time around because I wasn't stressed about not knowing what was going to happen. The character arcs worked better for me and all made sense. Puppet Yoda spelled out the entire theme of needing to fail to learn, and Luke being a BAMF at the end was greater. 

I was also able to notice details like Rey being thrilled to experience rain and catching that Justin Theroux's lady was Lily Cole. 

My friend was wondering how those kids at the end heard about Luke and Kylo's fight. I've decided Hux sent out a bulletin to all corners of the galaxy that Kylo got his ass beat by a hologram. That last look from Hux was pure hatred. I look forward to their partnership. 

Overall, I'm happy and the wait for the Episode IX is going to be long. 

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, stealinghome said:

-I too felt the movie sacrified Rey's story/made her OOC/did her a disservice to tell Kylo Ren's story (and he is just not nearly as interesting as this movie wanted him to be). The Rey who had just seen Kylo Ren murder his father (who she cared about), maim her best friend, and try to kill her is now going to be the "oh, he's a monster, but I can save him!!!" woman who writes letters to serial killers in jail? Yeah, no.

You can make the same argument that Luke was OOC for believing he could save Darth Vader and that there was good in him when at that point there was no evidence for that. I think Rey began to blame Luke for Ben becoming Kylo and by that what happened to Finn and Han's death. Luke blames himself for Kylo too. "Did you create Kylo Ren?" His line "The last thing I saw was the frightened eyes of a boy whose master failed him." She also believed that turning Kylo would turn the tide of the war so it wasn't just "I'm going to save my new boyfriend!".

3 hours ago, stealinghome said:

this movie lost sight of the fact that Rey is the primary hero for the new trilogy, and she was left stagnant while both Finn and Poe got arcs (however well they were or were not executed). I also think both Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver struggled with the weak material for their characters at times.

She was a primary hero who had beaten the villain pretty soundly in the first movie.  She was more powerful by the end of one movie than Luke was at the end of three. It wouldn't have been believable if he was suddenly able to beat her in their second fight so I think she needed another way to fail in this one. She still got to be a hero in the end by moving the rocks and saving the resistance.

 

3 hours ago, stealinghome said:

The showdown in Snoke's chambers. I was pretty underwhelmed. Maybe it's because it was fairly repetitive from TFA, but that should've been epic, and yet fell flat. Ditto for Yoda's appearance. Again, I think that was a function of the movie not being sure what its overarching story was, but while I got a kick out of seeing Yoda, that scene just seemed so random.

Couldn't disagree with you more. I thought hat entire sequence in Snoke's chambers was epic and I also loved Yoda's appearance. His line "Luke we are what they grow beyond. That is the burden of all masters." was great.

Edited December 22, 2017 by VCRTracking