S04.E17: The Great Army

[Shermie]

I continue to be impressed by the casting. When Bjorn was sailing back home, the way he sat on the ship all hunched over staring into the distance with his big fur cape - just like Ragnar. And Ubbe and Ivar have both used facial expressions and mannerisms that were exactly like Ragnar, sometimes it's as subtle as a shift of their eyes. Well done, fellas.

Whats not well done is Astrid and anything about her. The character is a fail, and I'm sick of the showrunners trying to make Fetch-strid happen. I like the emphasis on shieldmaidens, but we have Helga and Torvi already. Pairing Astrid with Bjorn? Ugh, just no. Unless it's a long con, and he's trying to show her as a betrayer or something.

That said, Bjorn cheating on Torvi? Like Ragnar, he seems to get itchy feet - always looking for something new. Even though Ragnar admitted in hindsight that his simple days on the farm with his family were his happiest, he wasn't satisfied at the time. 

[Silverglitter]

23 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

This show has had some missed opportunities.  Like Aethelwulf and Kwentrith being thier own conspiracy. That was one diversion from history that the fan base seemed to love.

TPTB realized that they accidentally let Aethelwulf have something resembling happiness for 2 seconds and so they corrected that posthaste.

[Evagirl]

The Seer said a son of Ragnar would kill Legartha.  It's going to be Bjorn, probably accidentally or something - maybe thinking she's someone else.  When he realizes that it's it mother, he'll run to her, take her in his arms, and they'll lock eyes.  Tears will slowly flow down Bjorn's face and his mother will gently wipe them away with a smile, letting him know that it really wasn't his fault.  How do I know all of this?  I'm a seer too! I seer what's coming.  LOL  Okay, I'm my biggest fan.

[thuganomics85]

Pretty sure this was the first episode with Travis Fimmel's name not in the credits.  Ragnar is truly gone now!

That Bjorn/Astrid ending came completely out of nowhere.  I barely remember any interactions between them, or anything that would hint there would be a big enough attraction to do that.  I figured Bjorn was going to cheat last week, but with that prisoner he was eyeing.  Not sure what is going on here.  I guess he's more like Ragnar then he wants to admit, when it comes to staying with a woman?

Figured Bjorn and the army would miraculously save the day, but I still loved the Lagertha and Ivar/Ubbe showdown.  The tension between all three of the characters is great.  Plus, Ivar just being a scary bastard in general.  Interesting though that Hvitserk is sort of like Sigurd in that he really isn't too upset over Lagertha killing Aslaug.  It's interesting seeing how everyone's reaction is so different.  Ivar is understandably upset because he loved her, while I don't get sense Ubbe really does, but he just think it is a son's duty to get revenge.  Sigurd resents her for not getting attention, while Hvitserk doesn't seem to resent her, but simply just understands why Lagertha did what she did.

Also, I'm totally going to double-down on Bjorn being the "son of Ragnar" who kills Lagertha, by accident somehow.  I just can't see Michael Hirst resisting that twist and irony.

I'm guessing this Egil character is suppose to be significant is now part of Harald and Halfdan's plan to take over.

I get you would no longer be welcomed with the Vikings, but you sure you want to stay home, Rollo?  After that reception?!

Floki and Ivar was the best part.  I especially loved how Floki couldn't even look at Ivar, when Helga started talking about how the girl she "saved" is now their daughter.

Judith's warnings to Aelle and the rest of the family fell onto death's ears.  Never thought I would say this before, but y'all really should listen to Judith.

Ah, lessons from Ecbert on how to be a king, which includes the importance of reading and, naturally, getting drunk under the table as a way to teach a lesson on how not to trust someone.  Especially someone like himself!  Classic Ecbert!

Next week?  WAR!!!!

[Ohwell]

Rollo is henpecked.  I love it!

[Silverglitter]

Alfred's actor isn't very good. In fact, he's dull and drippy. I know he's young, but then I think about how much I enjoyed young Bjorn and even Gyda and I stop considering age as an excuse.

[magdalene]

Is anybody else getting worried for Helga? The girl she is so determined to have as her child is extremely traumatized and I fear she may lash out at Helga and do her harm.

[BitterApple]

39 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Is anybody else getting worried for Helga? The girl she is so determined to have as her child is extremely traumatized and I fear she may lash out at Helga and do her harm.

I might actually co-sign that. I feel like Helga's character has run its' course.

2 hours ago, Evagirl said:

The Seer said a son of Ragnar would kill Legartha.  It's going to be Bjorn, probably accidentally or something - maybe thinking she's someone else.  When he realizes that it's it mother, he'll run to her, take her in his arms, and they'll lock eyes.  Tears will slowly flow down Bjorn's face and his mother will gently wipe them away with a smile, letting him know that it really wasn't his fault.  How do I know all of this?  I'm a seer too! I seer what's coming.  LOL  Okay, I'm my biggest fan.

We all need to remember this post so when it happens we can give you proper credit for calling it.

[wlk68]

The dinner scene between Torvi and Bjorn is really bugging me. Partly because Bjorn's behavior was way out of character but also because they made the baby cry. Not gonna lie, that ripped me right out of the scene. Sure, lets use a violent outburst (sweeping stuff off the table) to traumatize a baby for the sake of the show. You can't tell me they didn't know that could happen.

[Ohwell]

Eh.  Folks see babies crying on tv shows and in movies all the time.  I don't know much of anything about how they do it, but I'm guessing that what we see is nothing like how the scene was actually shot.  So, in the case of Bjorn and that baby it could have been use of CGI or something, so that the baby could have just been crying because it was hungry or needed a diaper change and was nowhere near Bjorn.

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

Is anybody else getting worried for Helga? The girl she is so determined to have as her child is extremely traumatized and I fear she may lash out at Helga and do her harm.

Yes, I'm worried that Helga is losing it.  That poor girl looked so traumatized when Helga was stroking her face.  Plus, it's kind of stupid of Helga not to realize just how traumatized the kid is, and the fact that the kid might actually hate Helga because it was her people--the Vikings--who murdered her family and others.  I wouldn't be surprised if she killed Helga. 

[Haleth]

Or kills herself which would be the last straw for Helga's sanity. 

[Euphony]

18 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I feel like this episode was one big wtf? moment for me. Bjorn and Astrid?! Why, Hirst, why? This is the love affair that literally no one was begging to see. I'm guessing that means slave girl is out, but Bjorn is definitely taking on a lot of Ragnar's dickish traits. Actually, I take that back because Ragnar was at least fond of his first set of kids, plus Ivar. 

I've been rewatching earlier seasons, and Ragnar is very loving with all his young children. He only became standoffish with them when they became adults, probably because the seerer told him they would eclipse him. But he clearly loved all his young children. He also tried to love Aslaug, he just couldn't and it became very toxic from there. But I think Bjorn's dickishness is all his own. He definitely has more gravitas then his brothers when he walks in the room, but he is also very cold and is kind of... charmless...

I think I only like Ivar, the charismatic ball of rage. He needs a little more of Fimmel's restraint with dialogue, but he continues to be magnetic. Ubbe is way too soft, and he always has a bit of a dopey look to him. Bjorn is too cold and flat. Sigur is too petty and weasely. Hvitsek is ...not memorable at all. Though I did kind of like his reaction to his mother's death, and Sigur being like "that's what I'm sayin'!"

[Son of the Norse]

I could the joy and the wind in my braids as Ivar galloped with his legs of Steel and horse flesh....loved it! :)

[BitterApple]

2 hours ago, Ohwell said:

 Plus, it's kind of stupid of Helga not to realize just how traumatized the kid is, and the fact that the kid might actually hate Helga 

I know, right? This poor child watched her mother get murdered, she was taken against her will, transported to a foreign land and thrust into a strange culture with a language she doesn't speak. She doesn't know if she's going to be beaten, raped, sold into slavery or killed. Sorry Helga, but feeding the girl soup isn't going to make it better. You messed up big time on this one, girlfriend.

[TaurusRose]

What is the point of Judith?  She bugs the crap out of me.  To make matters worse they just had to add a side of Princess Mush Mouth.    I didn't find this episode particularly engaging; the only scene that grabbed me was Lagertha vs Ubbe and Ivar.  Personally, I feel confident she would have taken Ubbe out without even trying. 

[Silverglitter]

2 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

What is the point of Judith?  She bugs the crap out of me.  To make matters worse they just had to add a side of Princess Mush Mouth.    I didn't find this episode particularly engaging; the only scene that grabbed me was Lagertha vs Ubbe and Ivar.  Personally, I feel confident she would have taken Ubbe out without even trying. 

I think she's been given special snowflake status because of bearing Athelstan's child. So, we're probably stuck with her till the end. It's not even the characterization that really bugs me. I just think the actor is horrible and she sucks the air out of every scene she's in. A better actress probably could've made the character bearable if not likeable.

[gwhh]

Who was Bjorn kissing at the end of the show??

[Paradigm14]

9 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I believe you added the "RE: Judith and Athelstan" part, but I was referring to Judith and Ecbert.

Anyway, I realize his options are limited, but he just looks so.....ok with it.  I guess he's gotten used to his father banging his wife.  

I think the King trumps everything. I'd guess it had been going on so long at that point, and Athelwulf had been with Crazypants himself, and I guess he's seen others if he liked them since, it was just something he was better of accepting. It's not like there's much he could do as you said.  Judith had tried at one point to get back with her husband to no avail.

1 hour ago, gwhh said:

Who was Bjorn kissing at the end of the show??

Bjorn was kissing Astrid, his Mom's Shield Maiden and bedmate. Maybe Torvi isn't enough of a shield maiden for him?

Edited January 13, 2017 by Paradigm14

[slf]

Damn, Lagertha's been building up Kattegat. She really has plans for the place and she was down in the ditches with a shovel, too. She's not too proud to work. I loved when Ivar was advancing on her and she was just relaxed on her throne, her owl next to her. So regal. 

That's twice now Ivar has publicly gone up against Lagertha and had to back down. Dude, you either need to do it or swallow your issues. All these false starts don't do much for you in the eyes of your fellow Vikings. Lagertha looks like a saint, as patient as she's being. (Which is messed up, I appreciate that. She did kill their mother, of course they want revenge. But they are Vikings. Plenty of people in that city must be thinking she should just kill them already. How many times is she expected to deflect a threat to her life while showing leniency?)

Bjorn. I mean...Bjorn reestablishing contact with his father and his half-brothers wasn't all positive. He's changed a lot from the adult Bjorn we were introduced to in Hedeby. That guy was awesome. This guy is a bag of dicks. But it makes sense given we just saw him almost mechanically slaughter a merchant village, probably rape a lot of women, and enslave people. Him cheating on his 'companion' is not super shocking to me, even if it is disappointing. I do hope there's a con happening here. In previous seasons, whenever Ragnar's behavior became really frustrating it usually turned out to be a ruse or something.

I laughed when Ubbe suggested he could take on Bjorn. We've seen nothing to suggest it's remotely possible. It's not like dealing with Sigurd and Ivar squabbling on the floor, ffs. When Bjorn, big as a bear, interrupted his brothers' attempt at revenge they looked scared. As part of Bjorn's redemption I want to see him fighting back to back with his mama.

Astrid has backstabber written all over her. 

I'd get into Judith a bit more if it didn't bother me how nonchalant she is about being lovers with the man who had her tied to a pole and mutilated. And if she seemed remotely concerned about what happens to her when Ecbert dies. Unless there's a plan in place to kill Aethelwulf? One can only hope, he's a bore.

I do think there's a chance Bjorn is the one to kill Lagertha, but likely indirectly. I mean, I would still put my money on one of the other sons being responsible, and perhaps indirectly as well since directly isn't working out for them. At this point, though, I don't care about the who so much as the how. I want it to be something worthy of her.

[patchwork]

Bjorn having an affair isn't all that surprising Torvi was actually married when they first got together, I have harder time believing he'd do that to his mother.

Helga has always been the sane one but now Floki is side eyeing her crazy. I really like the Floki/Ivor friendship, a chariot doesn't seem suited to the Vikings style of combat but I'm glad they're trying to figure something out. 

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, slf said:

Damn, Lagertha's been building up Kattegat. She really has plans for the place and she was down in the ditches with a shovel, too. She's not too proud to work. I loved when Ivar was advancing on her and she was just relaxed on her throne, her owl next to her. So regal. 

That's twice now Ivar has publicly gone up against Lagertha and had to back down. Dude, you either need to do it or swallow your issues. All these false starts don't do much for you in the eyes of your fellow Vikings. Lagertha looks like a saint, as patient as she's being. (Which is messed up, I appreciate that. She did kill their mother, of course they want revenge. But they are Vikings. Plenty of people in that city must be thinking she should just kill them already. How many times is she expected to deflect a threat to her life while showing leniency?)

Bjorn. I mean...Bjorn reestablishing contact with his father and his half-brothers wasn't all positive. He's changed a lot from the adult Bjorn we were introduced to in Hedeby. That guy was awesome. This guy is a bag of dicks. But it makes sense given we just saw him almost mechanically slaughter a merchant village, probably rape a lot of women, and enslave people. Him cheating on his 'companion' is not super shocking to me, even if it is disappointing. I do hope there's a con happening here. In previous seasons, whenever Ragnar's behavior became really frustrating it usually turned out to be a ruse or something.

I laughed when Ubbe suggested he could take on Bjorn. We've seen nothing to suggest it's remotely possible. It's not like dealing with Sigurd and Ivar squabbling on the floor, ffs. When Bjorn, big as a bear, interrupted his brothers' attempt at revenge they looked scared. As part of Bjorn's redemption I want to see him fighting back to back with his mama.

Astrid has backstabber written all over her. 

I'd get into Judith a bit more if it didn't bother me how nonchalant she is about being lovers with the man who had her tied to a pole and mutilated. And if she seemed remotely concerned about what happens to her when Ecbert dies. Unless there's a plan in place to kill Aethelwulf? One can only hope, he's a bore.

I do think there's a chance Bjorn is the one to kill Lagertha, but likely indirectly. I mean, I would still put my money on one of the other sons being responsible, and perhaps indirectly as well since directly isn't working out for them. At this point, though, I don't care about the who so much as the how. I want it to be something worthy of her.

I don't know...the actress playing Judith just sucks ass.  She can't carry a scene so giving her more than 1-2 lines of dialogue is just being mean to the viewers.  I'm with you as far as Ubbe vs Bjorn...Bjorn would just annihilate Ubbe.  And damn!  Don't I wish I had come up with the "bag of dicks" comment. I'm still laughing at that.

[green]

I like both the character of Judith and the actress that plays her.  Just have to stand up for her here a bit since she seems to get dumped on all the time here.

I like when she told her sister she should learn to read.  That was a bit pointed too in the sense that I didn't even know she had a sister.  Wonder if her sister is going to figure into the story at all.  If so she better leave Northumbria asap or at least instead of reading learn to speak Norse pretty quickly.

[Evagirl]

Who was watching Ivar and Floki in the woods at the end of the show?  The person behind the tree?  Anybody get a good look?

[benteen]

Quote

Judith's warnings to Aelle and the rest of the family fell onto death's ears.

Ironic term considering that Judith has only one ear.

Bjorn wanting to touch the girl makes me worried we might get a "Lenny" situation from Of Mice and Men.

[Babalooie]

Evagirl,  it was Bjorn behind the tree watching from behind as Ragnar always did.

[Evagirl]

46 minutes ago, Babalooie said:

Evagirl,  it was Bjorn behind the tree watching from behind as Ragnar always did.

Thanks Babalooie!  Sometimes the scenes are so dark I can't make out everything going on, especially if I have a light on.  My grandmother ingrained me that watching TV in the dark will make me blind, so I never did but I still can't see - go figure - LOL!

[tennisgurl]

Its just weird not seeing Travis's name in the opening credits. Ragnar is gone for real.

So... Bjorn/Astrid? Why are they trying to make Astrid a thing? She is not going to be a thing! I think having Lagatha have a relationship with an aspiring shield maiden is an alright idea, but not with useless Astrid, who comes accross as the lamest time traveloer ever. She reminds me of Betsy Ross from Sleepy Hallow, where there is one character who so obviously does not fit the period, but the show does not seem to realize this. And now she has to drag Bjorn into this too. I love Bjorn, but his behavior in this episode was pretty crap. Yeah, I know last week we saw him doing worse things, but I can at least accept "Well, he is a Viking" as some kind of understanding of character. His cheating on Torvi with his moms girlfriend while not caring much about his kids is just being an asshole.

Helga is losing her damn mind. I feel like Helga would be smart enough to at least realize this poor girl is going to have some issues right about now. Of course, Helga has stuck with Floki throughout all his bullshit, so maybe she just is generally bad at reading people.

I did like the Ivar and Floki stuff, and there was good in this episode, but it felt...off.  

I am so impressed by how much all of Ragnars kids are all clearly taking after him. Despite all their differences, they have all picked up a lot of his mannerisms and traits. I totally buy them as his sons. 

Edited January 13, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Evagirl]

I'm glad that Ivar has someone else who him loves unconditionally since his mother is gone.  It was to Floki that Aslaugd took him to as a child and asked Floki to raise him as a viking in spite of his physical limitations.  

Unfortunately Ragnar didn't understand that he needed Ivar until he looked around and saw that Ivar was all he had.  Only THEN did Ragnar begin to treat him as equally as he did his other sons.  Ivar would have died with his old man if Ragnar would have allowed it.  The kid loved his father that much.  When they first introduced the adult sons of Aslaugd, Ivar was the only one who stood up for his father even though he knew Ragnar wanted to leave him in the woods to die when he was an infant.

Hirst will probably create a very cruel Ivar but Ragnar was cruel also, extremely so, and I still cared about him.  Ivar is the only son I really care anything about.  Bjorn is turning out to be not likable to me.  Ubbe showed some of Ragnar vigor when he ran into the hall to kill Lagertha, but it's obvious that he is not the alpha brother of the three - it's Ivar.  Hiv-whatever is just there taking up space.  Sigurd is an idiot.  Ivar almost killed him in this episode.  All three of the brothers are terrified of Ivar because of his strength and his unpredictability.

The chariot that Floki made for Ivar?  It really did give him not only legs, but wings also.   

Edited January 13, 2017 by Evagirl
typo

[Paradigm14]

I am hoping they fix the Bjorn thing fast. As the legacy of Ragnar and Lagertha, I'm expecting a lot, I know, but he should have both the cunning of his father and the strength of his mother.  And no, I don't think Ubbe could handle him. The adult Bjorn as written has a much meaner side.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Paradigm14

[MaggieG]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I am so impressed by how much all of Ragnars kids are all clearly taking after him. Despite all their differences, they have all picked up a lot of his mannerisms and traits. I totally buy them as his sons. 

I agree and I think it's a credit to the actors, they really seem to have studied Travis Fimmel's mannerisms and facial expressions.

I'm starting to really like Ubbe.

What in Odin's name is going on with Bjorn and Astrid? What the heck is he thinking? Sleeping with the woman who is also sleeping with his mother?

Crazy as he is, I really like Ivar. I feel like he just crawls around and murders people while they sleep. I loved his reaction to Helga and her new "daughter".

[jnymph]

Ugh.

All I came away with from this episode was how much I miss Seasons 1-3.  : (         
 

[slf]

It's cool that the actors playing Ragnar's sons have all worked a bit of Fimmel's mannerisms into their performances, and historically, yes, Bjorn and the others were known for being the sons of Ragnar. But the show's emphasis on that all the time is starting to grate. Either Ubbe, Ivar, Sigurd, or Hvirtsik (?) mentions it at least once an episode. At least two or three of them would become famous and respected in their own right. The show needs to let each boy breathe a bit more, and be more than just Ragnar's son. Outside of whether or not to avenge their mother, you wouldn't know any of them was Aslaug's son. There's no interest in showing her influence which is weird because she's the only parent they were consistently around. In fact, Ivar's personality makes a lot more sense when you consider that Floki would've been his primary male influence.

The same for Bjorn. Of all the actors playing a son of Ragnar, I think he's done the best at working in Fimmel's mannerisms (during the invasion of Paris he sort of flicked his hands to signal an attack and it was pitch perfect) while still making Bjorn his own person. But you don't see much of Lagertha's influence anymore. Which I don't like given she raised him more than Ragnar.

I don't want to see these actors aping Fimmel all the time. In small doses it works and makes sense, Ragnar was their father and a major influence, but they are their mother's sons and also different from either of their parents. I feel like the writing hasn't embraced that.

Edited January 13, 2017 by slf

[Evagirl]

Just had a thought...

When Ragnar was trying to recruit Bjorn, Floki, Ubbe etc. to go to England, I wonder if he knew then it would be a one-way ticket for him?  If so, then he would have jeopardized all of his sons (except Ivar whom he did not even ask to go), and everybody on this suicide mission.  Sounds selfish to me, but Ragnar wasn't known for his generosity anyway.

One more thought...remember the show when Floki gave little Ubbe the mushroom that would make the guy (can't remember his) appear dead?  And he frightened little Ubbe with a story about what would happen to him if he told?  It was a story about being strung up in a cave with venomous snakes hanging over your head and the venom would slowly drip onto your body and burn you or something like that.  Anyway, isn't that's exactly how Ragnar punished Floki for killing his bestie Althestan?

[wlk68]

48 minutes ago, Evagirl said:

Just had a thought...

When Ragnar was trying to recruit Bjorn, Floki, Ubbe etc. to go to England, I wonder if he knew then it would be a one-way ticket for him?  If so, then he would have jeopardized all of his sons (except Ivar whom he did not even ask to go), and everybody on this suicide mission.  Sounds selfish to me, but Ragnar wasn't known for his generosity anyway.

One more thought...remember the show when Floki gave little Ubbe the mushroom that would make the guy (can't remember his) appear dead?  And he frightened little Ubbe with a story about what would happen to him if he told?  It was a story about being strung up in a cave with venomous snakes hanging over your head and the venom would slowly drip onto your body and burn you or something like that.  Anyway, isn't that's exactly how Ragnar punished Floki for killing his bestie Althestan?

Ragnar confessed as much to Ivar when they were in England. He had no intention of ever returning. One way or another, he planned to die on that raid.

As for the actors playing Ragnar's sons, I agree they're doing a marvelous job of including some of his mannerisms. There was one point where Ubbe did the little lip twitch/grimace thing that Ragnar always did and I nearly squealed.    

Edited January 13, 2017 by wlk68
Because proper spelling is important

[Ohwell]

A few episodes ago, the Vikings were having one of their house parties, and I remember Bjorn looking at Astrid.  Looking back on it, it might have been a look of lust, but I had commented that to me it looked like he was side-eyeing her and didn't trust her.  I hope that's the case because I like Bjorn (well, as much as one can "like" a murdering, pillaging, raping Viking) and it would definitely change my opinion of him if he slept with Joan Jett...err....whatshername.  

[TaurusRose]

13 hours ago, green said:

I like both the character of Judith and the actress that plays her.  Just have to stand up for her here a bit since she seems to get dumped on all the time here.

I like when she told her sister she should learn to read.  That was a bit pointed too in the sense that I didn't even know she had a sister.  Wonder if her sister is going to figure into the story at all.  If so she better leave Northumbria asap or at least instead of reading learn to speak Norse pretty quickly.

I'm glad she works for some people.  Whenever she's on screen I find myself wondering who is protecting her job BTS because again...she sucks.  The character of Judith is little more than a sketchy outline and the actress portraying her is bland beyond belief.  I didn't much like the Hirst sisters in the beginning either, but at least they breathed life into their characters and became women of action.  As far as Judith telling her sister to read, this is a perfect example of why I have total disregard for the character.  She reads.  And?  Has she done anything with her knowledge?  Is she trying to make any changes or help anyone except herself?  Nope.  She's perfectly content to do nothing more than sleep with Ecbert (who friggin' disfigured her), throw smug shade at Aethelwulf and Aelle, and walk around like she's the second coming of Mary (which she most certainly is not).   IMO, Judith showing up in her father's kingdom and telling him that the place where Ragnar died was sacred was ridiculous.  All of a sudden she's aware?  Whatever.  Still don't like her.

Edited January 13, 2017 by taurusrose

[Ravenya003]

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

I'm glad she works for some people.  Whenever she's on screen I find myself wondering who is protecting her job BTS because again...she sucks.  The character of Judith is little more than a sketchy outline and the actress portraying her is bland beyond belief.  I didn't much like the Hirst sisters in the beginning either, but at least they breathed life into their characters and became women of action.  As far as Judith telling her sister to read, this is a perfect example of why I have total disregard for the character.  She reads.  And?  Has she done anything with her knowledge?  Is she trying to make any changes or help anyone except herself?  Nope.  She's perfectly content to do nothing more than sleep with Ecbert (who friggin' disfigured her), throw smug shade at Aethelwulf and Aelle, and walk around like she's the second coming of Mary (which she most certainly is not).   IMO, Judith showing up in her father's kingdom and telling him that the place where Ragnar died was sacred was ridiculous.  All of a sudden she's aware?  Whatever.  Still don't like her.

I don't mind Judith, though I can't say I'm particularly interested in her either. In case people have forgotten, the character was actually portrayed by a different actress (Sarah Greene) back in season two, though she ended up leaving for Penny Dreadful. She didn't have much time to put any sort of stamp on the character, but it would have been interesting to see how Judith would have changed in the hands of another actress. 

I think the problem is that I can't really get inside her head. How does she feel about her children? Ecbert? Athelstan? What's she going to do when Ecbert dies and she no longer lives under his protection? How does she plan to protect Alfred when the Vikings arrive? Is she still painting? Does she know that Ecbert was almost certainly the puppet-master who had her ear chopped off? I just don't know anything about how she thinks, and I'm pretty sure she was just conceived as a character in order to make Athelstan the father of Alfred ... which isn't a particularly promising basis for any character.

[raven]

18 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

I just don't know anything about how she thinks, and I'm pretty sure she was just conceived as a character in order to make Athelstan the father of Alfred ... which isn't a particularly promising basis for any character.

This pretty much sums up the Judith character for me also.  I suppose she's trying to survive but we don't really know anything about her, she's just there.

Even though we see don't see Gisla often, I feel like I know more about her, though I rolled my eyes at the rom-com homecoming with Rollo.  I'm surprised they didn't show the angry reunion sex.

I know it's awful, but I laughed at Ivar's expression when Helga said they were adopting the girl.   Helga has shown to be caring and compassionate; she must be mentally off to not admit what's been done to the girl.  She can't possibly rationally believe the girl is better off with them; it's a sad situation, and I think the girl will commit suicide, or try to run off and be killed, and then Helga will kill herself (or die trying to save her somehow).  I hope I'm wrong.  I would like something better for Helga, who's not a shield maiden but is tough in her own way.

I really enjoyed the Floki/Ivar scene - you just knew they were joking and I loved what Floki did for him.  It doesn't bode well for the rest of civilization though. 

I'm liking Ubbe more - he's not impetuous like Ivar; he's thoughtful in his own way; I can see him being a long range planner.  I wish he had left Margrethe alone, she was better off as Lagertha's slave, if his brothers still think she has to have sex with them. 

I think Bjorn got harder and colder as he got older.   He's proved himself, he's leading raids and was raised by two hard-core Vikings.  His "you got your revenge" to Lagertha meant, to me, that Lagertha wasn't THAT concerned with how Kattegut was being ruled, she just wanted Aslaug dead and getting Kattegut back was a bonus. 

4 hours ago, wlk68 said:

As for the actors playing Ragnar's sons, I agree they're doing a marvelous job of including some of his mannerisms.

ITA.  For me, there's just enough with them - I see the most with Bjorn which makes sense.  Ragnar's presence is still being felt and I like that we see it in his sons.  I imagine that (if the actors are any good) they will move away from these mannerism a bit as the characters age; for now I'm enjoying it.

For a setting-things-in-motion type of ep, I thought it was a good one.

[green]

Magdalene posted a link in "Vikings Sightings in the Media" to the latest interview with Michael Hirst.  Go to that thread for the link to it.  (And apparently Hirst will be interviewing about the remaining episodes of this season the day after they are shown as well).

So for those of you wanting answers to some of the things he wrote into this episode and what they mean you will find them there.  He answers the question about the Bjorn/Astrid scene at the end of the episode, the comment about looking like Ragnar that Lagertha mentions to Ubbe and what part Hirst sees as Ubbe's inheritance from Ragnar.  Also, going back a couple of episodes, why Lagertha decided to kill Aslaug and not let her walk.  He also comments on Judith both this episode and as a character.  Also some comments about the Floki/Helga situation.

Very very interesting interview.  Thanks, Magdalene, for the link.  Please link us up next week too if you would.

[Kalliste]

from the article @green mentioned above:

Quote

Now, she’s got a female lover. He loves his mother, but part of him is saying: “I can take this woman away from you. You can’t dominate me. I’m as strong as you are.” He does that — I think, I may be wrong — he does that to prove a point.

If that was what they were trying to portray in Bjorn being a dick to Torvi and making out with Astrid they did it really poorly. There was nothing to suggest he was doing it to show that he can one up Lagertha. Anyone know if there were any scenes removed from this episode that might have explained it?

[whoknowswho]

On 1/12/2017 at 3:32 PM, Avalanche said:

While I enjoyed seeing Floki's gift of the chariot to Ivar, I'm a bit confused as to why nobody has ever thought to put him on a horse (à la Bran Stark) as opposed to the horsedrawn chariot.  Horseback would give him more freedom to navigate in wooded areas as well as other terrain.

As a life long horse woman, I thought of this immediately--that chariot is going to get trashed on that terrain, and besides--why not just ride? I worked with people with physical disabilities, and even if you are paralyzed below the waist, you can learn to ride. Even the Viking equivalent--tie his legs into place, and he's good as long as the horse stays alive/upright. But I guess a chariot is just cooler.  I think of all the tactical things that can go wrong--the chariot can flip, the horse can go in runaway mode, some of the harness could break, causing all types of severe problems... (I both ride, and drove--and 100% prefer riding to driving, far less things can go wrong even if I fall) But that's why I'm an armchair warrior.

I loved this show, past tense, and there are some redeeming qualities--but mostly I'm not invested in the younger generation. I hate Bjorn's character--always did--he's wooden and emotionless as an adult--he was churlish and bratty as a kid but at least he had some character then--I dislike him now. Then--they took my most hated character of the season (Astrid) and made them suck face--just stop it, Hirst--why are you ruining my favorite show? Confused totally, because it seemed to swing completely out of left field--I never noticed any chemistry really between them, but usually when he's onscreen I lose interest in the show entirely till something happens--I just don't care for him.  I hate how little he feels--about anything--pays no attention to his kids. Has one expression on his face--kind of a semi smirk, or angry face, that's about it.  Ragnar loved his children, Bjorn doesn't even notice if one has died. Ugh, Ragnar I miss you soooooo much! 

Add to that-- Helga's taken a long walk off a short pier, and departed without her sanity--and I'm saddened by that. It isn't going to make the story anymore interesting.  

There were some great scenes--I loved Floki and Ivar's banter, and I really like that young man's portrayal and the way he pulls off such a hard role. The rest of the Ragnarson's don't really interest me very much, though I think I sort of like Ubbe now--he does resemble his Dad. While Sigurd Snake in the eye is odd with the hair, I like his pragmatic approach--or maybe it was Hvitserk, who noted Mom was too busy with Harbard, paid no attention to anyone but Ivar, and they almost drowned as kids.

Second favorite scene--I laughed out loud at Gisla's french tirade on Rollo-- I caught putain (whore), batard,(bastard--like whoring bastard I believe) and something I think about a duck, (canard) or maybe she said marde (shit) --You get the jist--she was giving him holy hell and it totally cracked me up when she whopped him in the nose. Go, Princess Mushmouth, go!

The rest, was meh. Miss Ragnar, will miss Rollo, Ecbert isn't nearly as pretty as he used to be....just meh. Hopefully we'll have some good murder and mayhem at some point again. I don't want to see Lagertha die but I sense it is coming...and maybe it will be Bjorn--wouldn't that be a kick in the chops? 

[rozen]

Ok, there's the Gisla from the last season. That was great! Rollo wouldn't love a woman who didn't try to beat the shit out of him for going AWOL for year(s). Siggy would have tried to cut his balls off. It was funny how he took it, like 'yea, I earned this, get it all out.' He did the 869 version of buying a Ferrari when you hit 50. Spoiler's the rest bc it got too long >_<

Spoiler

 

Lagertha would have killed both of them, sorry not sorry. Imo, there are 3 good reasons to target Ivar immediately as she did 1) he's the driving rage behind the two's quest for vengeance. If she cuts him down (or even severely injures him), Ubbe would almost certainly drop everything to try to save him. 2) He has the most unconventional fighting style just because of the height differential, and thus deserves her full focus. 3) Even though he's dangerous, Ivar is not used to *others* respecting how dangerous he is. There was pure confusion and terror in his eyes as  he braced to defend himself against her, he was fully expecting her to go full tilt at Ubbe while he circled around like...well, a snake. 

Also love Lagertha's politicking with Ubbe. She's reminding him again and again that she was a part of Kattegat and was Ragnar's wife before he'd even dropped from Aslaug's ovary. His defensive reply that he grew up in Kattegat was childish and weak, and he knew it. I'm just waiting for her to drop that she buried her children here just to finish crushing him*. Ubbe is truly the softest, emotionally, of all of Ragnar's sons. I thinks Lagertha will have reasoned him out of his deathwish before they sail to England.

Also read Bjorn's "so, you got your revenge" as pure pride. Dude keeps a full accounting for everyone, hence his quiet assessment that Rollo could never come back, because then Bjorn would have to kill him. I'm not that surprised he's a shit father. Ragnar loved his sons, yes, but Bjorn's childhood was right when Ragnar was hitting his ascent, I doubt he interacted with him much. Then he spent most of his adolescence watching his mother get smacked around by a drunk step-father. Ragnar had the time to dote on Aslaug's sons that Bjorn never got. I know talk about father figure's is cliche, but Bjorn never really had a good example to emulate. Even when he came back, Aslaug made sure he was very much on the outside looking in. I see Ubbe and Bjorn as the two extremes of Ragnar. His glory chasing is actually quiet reminiscent of Rollo, now that I think of it. Young Rollo would have been an equally useless father. 

I love how this show makes badass women making perfectly reasonable arguments on why their dumbass partners shouldn't drop everything and carouse with their would-be murderers look like hectoring fishwives. Gisla and Torvi were both telling nothing but the truth and Rollo and Bjorn are both throwing up their hands like "man's gotta do what a man's gotta do." Torvi helped orchestrate the murder of a woman with two really pissed off sons for you Bjorn, and she didn't have a secret service detail of useless shieldmaidens to protect her from them afterwards. Yes, she would like you to not waste it by going to die in the place The Greatest Warrior of All Time was just murdered. 

You know, they've had so many shots of people being held hostage while something awful happens that I wonder if it's not forshadowing? Maybe the rat-faced King of Norway will end up holding Lagertha hostage in exchange for Kattegat and one of the sons will murder her so Bjorn won't do it? Bittersweet vengeance seems like something right up Hirst's alley.

I am split over whether Judith was really trying to save Aella, or trying to make sure he sets himself up to fail. Because you know the minute his whore blasphemous daughter tells him Ragnar's deathplace is sacred, he's going to build a pig pen over it, or something. 

*Aw snap, what if the weak point of Kattegat's defense ends up being Lagertha and Ragnar's daughter's grave that she can't bring herself to build fortifications over?

 

Edited January 14, 2017 by rozen

[green]

3 hours ago, whoknowswho said:

As a life long horse woman, I thought of this immediately--that chariot is going to get trashed on that terrain, and besides--why not just ride? I worked with people with physical disabilities, and even if you are paralyzed below the waist, you can learn to ride. Even the Viking equivalent--tie his legs into place, and he's good as long as the horse stays alive/upright. But I guess a chariot is just cooler.  I think of all the tactical things that can go wrong--the chariot can flip, the horse can go in runaway mode, some of the harness could break, causing all types of severe problems... (I both ride, and drove--and 100% prefer riding to driving, far less things can go wrong even if I fall) But that's why I'm an armchair warrior.

 

The reason for this is ...

Spoiler

history!  Ivar actually was said to have used a chariot when leading The Great Heathen Army.  If you have an actual chariot cited in history you just can't NOT use it in the show.  Not just for  history's sake (and Hirst states in that interview that he loves to use all the concrete historic facts in the show as much as possible) but also for "how cool is this" on the screen.

[whoknowswho]

9 hours ago, green said:

The reason for this is ...

  Hide contents

history!  Ivar actually was said to have used a chariot when leading The Great Heathen Army.  If you have an actual chariot cited in history you just can't NOT use it in the show.  Not just for  history's sake (and Hirst states in that interview that he loves to use all the concrete historic facts in the show as much as possible) but also for "how cool is this" on the screen.

Ah, GREEN, I didn't know that. I thought I had read somewhere that he was carried, like on a litter, which didn't make sense and now I can't remember where I read it. Wikipedia isn't the end-all and be-all.  

I don't read the media thread--so once again, I defer to your knowledge. 

[Babalooie]

Regarding the chariot,  I figured that perhaps Floki had seen one on one of the raids to England.   Then I found this on Wikipedia, but the timeline doesn't match up.

" In earlier times, the Celts would employ the chariot.[18] Although chariots had fallen out of use in continental Europe from the end of the 3rd century BC, Caesar found that they remained significant in British warfare. If his descriptions are to be believed, he encountered in Britain an army in transition, possessing cavalry but still with an elite fighting from chariots. He describes how these warriors would throw javelins from their vehicles before abandoning them to fight on foot and returning to them in order to retreat or redeploy.[19] Cavalry proper is described as used for skirmishing. Gauls are said to have commented that they themselves had formerly used chariots but had abandoned them by this time."

[ghoulina]

16 hours ago, Kalliste said:

f that was what they were trying to portray in Bjorn being a dick to Torvi and making out with Astrid they did it really poorly. There was nothing to suggest he was doing it to show that he can one up Lagertha. Anyone know if there were any scenes removed from this episode that might have explained it?

It really did just come completely out of left field. I could actually see a young man doing that to his mother, if he was bitter that SHE took over his father's kingdom, when it should have been him. Maybe Bjorn thought he'd come back and they'd all beg him to be king? I mean, it COULD make sense...but there's been nothing I've seen leading up to that storyline. Nothing to show me he's into her either. Just nothing. It was so odd.

[Stratego]

18 hours ago, whoknowswho said:

As a life long horse woman, I thought of this immediately--that chariot is going to get trashed on that terrain, and besides--why not just ride? I worked with people with physical disabilities, and even if you are paralyzed below the waist, you can learn to ride. Even the Viking equivalent--tie his legs into place, and he's good as long as the horse stays alive/upright. But I guess a chariot is just cooler.  I think of all the tactical things that can go wrong--the chariot can flip, the horse can go in runaway mode, some of the harness could break, causing all types of severe problems... (I both ride, and drove--and 100% prefer riding to driving, far less things can go wrong even if I fall) But that's why I'm an armchair warrior.

I loved this show, past tense, and there are some redeeming qualities--but mostly I'm not invested in the younger generation. I hate Bjorn's character--always did--he's wooden and emotionless as an adult--he was churlish and bratty as a kid but at least he had some character then--I dislike him now. Then--they took my most hated character of the season (Astrid) and made them suck face--just stop it, Hirst--why are you ruining my favorite show? Confused totally, because it seemed to swing completely out of left field--I never noticed any chemistry really between them, but usually when he's onscreen I lose interest in the show entirely till something happens--I just don't care for him.  I hate how little he feels--about anything--pays no attention to his kids. Has one expression on his face--kind of a semi smirk, or angry face, that's about it.  Ragnar loved his children, Bjorn doesn't even notice if one has died. Ugh, Ragnar I miss you soooooo much! 

Add to that-- Helga's taken a long walk off a short pier, and departed without her sanity--and I'm saddened by that. It isn't going to make the story anymore interesting.  

There were some great scenes--I loved Floki and Ivar's banter, and I really like that young man's portrayal and the way he pulls off such a hard role. The rest of the Ragnarson's don't really interest me very much, though I think I sort of like Ubbe now--he does resemble his Dad. While Sigurd Snake in the eye is odd with the hair, I like his pragmatic approach--or maybe it was Hvitserk, who noted Mom was too busy with Harbard, paid no attention to anyone but Ivar, and they almost drowned as kids.

Second favorite scene--I laughed out loud at Gisla's french tirade on Rollo-- I caught putain (whore), batard,(bastard--like whoring bastard I believe) and something I think about a duck, (canard) or maybe she said marde (shit) --You get the jist--she was giving him holy hell and it totally cracked me up when she whopped him in the nose. Go, Princess Mushmouth, go!

The rest, was meh. Miss Ragnar, will miss Rollo, Ecbert isn't nearly as pretty as he used to be....just meh. Hopefully we'll have some good murder and mayhem at some point again. I don't want to see Lagertha die but I sense it is coming...and maybe it will be Bjorn--wouldn't that be a kick in the chops? 

I would think that a horse would get tired faster with a rider (especially one with some form of armor) and with weapons than simply pulling a chariot with said warrior in tow.  A chariot could also be pulled by men (presumably armed). Transporting a horse on a Viking ship might be problematic.

[nodorothyparker]

Not a great episode but a solid one with a lot of table setting for what we know comes next.

Sure it was cliche to have Bjorn show up magically at just the right time before his brothers got lucky and killed his mother or she had to kill them, but I'll take it just the same.  I've never been terribly invested in any romantic pairing on this show beyond thinking Ragnar and Lagertha had smoking chemistry, so I'm willing to take a wait and see where they're going with the WTF Bjorn and Astrid thing at the end.  It's fascinating watching all the sons sort out their identities and alliances as they each try to emerge as more than the collective "sons of Ragnar" in a post Ragnar world.

I'm apparently in a minority that I wasn't at all surprised to see Bjorn getting kind of short and assholey with everyone.  He just made a historic voyage further than their people have ever gone and had to cut it short to come the considerable distance home because Ragnar went off and committed suicide by Saxon instead of coming with him like he was asked.  No one is feasting or lauding him for making that voyage as he might have reasonably expected.  He walks in to find that his mother has killed his brothers' mother and now they're on the verge of very publicly killing each other.  And he still has to herd all these cats if he's going to properly avenge his father, so forget about whatever else he might have wanted to do.  Yeah, he doesn't seem much interested in his kids and he shouldn't have taken it out on Torvi, but it's also impossible not to notice that she very clearly backed his mother without any regard for how awkward that might make things between him and his brothers going forward.

I don't hate Judith but I also often find myself thinking that the show seems to consider her a much more substantial character than I do.  It's great that she's dabbled in art and learning.  It's great that she's trying to warn her family of what's coming and telling her sister to learn to read, but she never once acknowledges that all of that came about for her because of her longtime affair with the father-in-law who had her mutilated and because she happened to get lucky in bearing an Athelstan love child for him.

Helga, that poor traumatized girl does not want to be your replacement daughter.  She's not Athelstan, who was an adult who could at least speak the language and was genuinely curious about the world he was kidnapped into.

Edited January 15, 2017 by nodorothyparker

[Kalliste]

4 hours ago, ghoulina said:

It really did just come completely out of left field. I could actually see a young man doing that to his mother, if he was bitter that SHE took over his father's kingdom, when it should have been him. Maybe Bjorn thought he'd come back and they'd all beg him to be king? I mean, it COULD make sense...but there's been nothing I've seen leading up to that storyline. Nothing to show me he's into her either. Just nothing. It was so odd.

That could be a possibility, although @nodorothyparker does have a good theory.. perhaps he is pissed because he took this massive journey and still Lagertha's exploits overshadow them. Perhaps that is what Hirst intended?

In regards to him wanting to be king, he could have done that years ago. When Ragnar disappeared he could have made himself king (I assume he could have outranked Aslaug?) if he wanted.

[nodorothyparker]

When he still young maybe in a theoretical kind of way he wanted it, but I haven't really gotten the sense in recent seasons as Bjorn aged that he was particularly burning to be king.  It's been more been about wanting to be his own man with great deeds of his own beyond being the son of famous parents.  He may have assumed kingship would come eventually, but fair point that he apparently never showed any interest in pressing his claim during all the years Ragnar had wandered off to wherever.

Bjorn didn't seem especially happy to come home and find Lagertha on that throne.  His line reading of "So you have your revenge," could be taken any number of ways. but to me it read as "So the minute I and most of the fighting men and a couple of my brothers by Aslaug were gone and out of the way, you killed her and took everything back without any consideration for how strained this makes things for all of us until you have to kill them or they kill you and then I have to kill them." 

Edited January 15, 2017 by nodorothyparker