S33.E12: Slayed the Survivor Dragon

[303420]

I remain a FANNAH. I just dig the heck out of her as a person and I would like to party with her. She's done a fine job of keeping herself in the game despite what isn't necessarily a naturally socially successful personality.

Re: Adam - there are infinite ways he and his family could have discussed the matter and concluded that the best decision for their family was for Adam to go on Survivor and do his best. Maybe he won and Probst went out of his way to tell the mother on the condition she tell no one else. Regardless, I bet she died proud of and excited for her son.

Edited December 9, 2016 by 303420

[LanceM]

32 minutes ago, Sarnia said:

Yes, I really don't get that either. Hannah, Adam sacrificed his Immunity Idol for you! Be a little thankful!

I was surprised also at Probst during the first tribal making blatant reference to the fact that Will made his "big move" in voting out Zeke. 2 votes were not read at the previous council, and if by any chance Will was trying to hide his vote from the others, this would have gone up in flame right there. I thought it was a very obstrusive move from Probst, one that could have changed the game. It so happened that Will was not hiding this (but Probst is not supposed to know) and was voted out anyway, but I thought Probst overstepped his role there.

For all we know Will brought up this fact during  tribal council but didn't make the final cut that was aired. Remember these tribal councils can last a couple of hours.

[Jobiska]

As far as I recall, they have never rehidden at a merge camp an idol that was found at a pre-merge camp, so I do not believe they will rehide Jay's.  All of the idols found and played so far have been pre-merge-camp idols.  If there was a post-merge new idol, nobody has found it.  No clue was found or hinted at during the merge feast or similar.  I believe, without recalling a specific instance, that they have, or would, re-hide a merge camp idol once played, if still within the time that it is useful, but there's been no sign that they had a post-merge idol at all.

[green]

1 hour ago, Jobiska said:

As far as I recall, they have never rehidden at a merge camp an idol that was found at a pre-merge camp, so I do not believe they will rehide Jay's.  All of the idols found and played so far have been pre-merge-camp idols.  If there was a post-merge new idol, nobody has found it.  No clue was found or hinted at during the merge feast or similar.  I believe, without recalling a specific instance, that they have, or would, re-hide a merge camp idol once played, if still within the time that it is useful, but there's been no sign that they had a post-merge idol at all.

They have to wait until ALL idols are played after a merge before they re-hide the one, lone "merged camp" idol.

Spoiler

Preview showed everyone scurrying around looking for said idol next week and David even making a fake one.

[Nashville]

On 12/8/2016 at 2:09 PM, MissEwa said:

I guess 'trust cluster' didn't take off?

Any term containing the word "cluster" might be considered potentially problematic.  ;>

Edited December 10, 2016 by Nashville

[RedheadZombie]

Why doesn't any one ever tell Hannah she has dirt all over her face?  Help a girl out.  I hope she looks like a goddess at the finale.  You know Jeff is going to humiliate her with the clip where she dreams Ken may be interested.

Jay's confessional about his "yinyang" pal Adam is so endearing.  It's made me root for him (after David).  But I think Jay's game just turned emotional, which is never a good thing.  

[Porkchop]

I think it's very likely that Adam's brother told him that the weekly Survivor episode was the highlight of their mother's days ... something she looked forward to with joy. In my family, we are going through the imminent death of a young man, stricken with cancer, and not responding to any treatment. We are desperate for something/anything to brighten his last days. Although I think Adam must've been heartbroken not to get home in time, I hope he is comforted by the Survivor adventure they shared.

[Al Herkimer]

^ But Adam's mother would have died months before the first episode of this season aired, right?

Edited December 10, 2016 by Al Herkimer

[Al Herkimer]

16 hours ago, hatchetgirl said:

I have no problem with Will or Jay crying.  It's such a big thing!  I'm just trying to figure out how he didn't get home if the show filmed the finale 2 days before she passed.  He wouldn't have been in Ponderosa, would he?  The finale is live, I thought, so I'd imagine, if the finale happened, and I was in his position, I'd book myself home ASAP!  But it really is neither here nor there.  I agree it's his family and his choice.  It's just heartbreaking seeing him crying so hard for his mom (completely reasonable) and not getting to her in time.  

The live finale, at which the winner is revealed, hasn't happened yet.  The entire cast will get together this Wednesday for the only live portion of the season.

Unless they did it differently this season?

[cherrypj]

1 hour ago, Al Herkimer said:

^ But Adam's mother would have died months before the first episode of this season aired, right?

Correct. She never saw him play.

[himela]

On 8/12/2016 at 4:03 AM, riley702 said:

Hannah's an idiot and so is everyone that voted with her. For example, how did that help Adam?

Hannah made the right move for HER game. Sunday was a goat and Hannah wanted this goat position in the final tribal for herself. She also said that something like "convincing other players to make a move that doesn't benefit them much but it does benefit you is a winner's thing to do". Adam gained nothing with Sunday leaving so that shows that Hannah played it better than Adam convincing him to do something that was not good for his game.

[waving feather]

9 minutes ago, himela said:

Hannah made the right move for HER game. Sunday was a goat and Hannah wanted this goat position in the final tribal for herself. She also said that something like "convincing other players to make a move that doesn't benefit them much but it does benefit you is a winner's thing to do". Adam gained nothing with Sunday leaving so that shows that Hannah played it better than Adam convincing him to do something that was not good for his game.

True. But it is only good for her game if she just wants to sit in the FTC and has no intentions of winning. Because if she had any intention of actually winning, she would get David out asap and bring any combination of Sunday, Ken or Bret with her there. Alas, she has no shot now.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, himela said:

Adam gained nothing with Sunday leaving

He gained it not being himself leaving and possibly gained more trust from Hannah.  

[303420]

8 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

You know Jeff is going to humiliate her with the clip where she dreams Ken may be interested.

I've decided that she and Ken are  going to ride off into the sunset on a white horse after the reunion. 

1 minute ago, waving feather said:

True. But it is only good for her game if she just wants to sit in the FTC and has no intentions of winning. Because if she had any intention of actually winning, she would get David out asap and bring any combination of Sunday, Ken or Bret with her there. Alas, she has no shot now.

I don't know that it would have been so simple for her. Such a move would have involved stabbing her entire alliance in the back, and that doesn't necessarily bode well for her FTC prospects.

[himela]

20 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

He gained it not being himself leaving and possibly gained more trust from Hannah.  

Adam was in no danger of leaving this last tribal, he was in a four people alliance in a seven people tribe. Also he doesn't need any more trust from people anymore at this point, it's an individual game.

[ghoulina]

2 hours ago, himela said:

Adam was in no danger of leaving this last tribal, he was in a four people alliance in a seven people tribe. Also he doesn't need any more trust from people anymore at this point, it's an individual game.

But if he had pushed Hannah and Ken too hard to go his way, or was seen talking to Brett and Sunday about voting David, he COULD have put the target on his own back. Sometimes you have to throw your alliance members a bone.

[himela]

14 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

But if he had pushed Hannah and Ken too hard to go his way, or was seen talking to Brett and Sunday about voting David, he COULD have put the target on his own back. Sometimes you have to throw your alliance members a bone.

Adam will have to vote David out sooner or later. It would be better for him to do it now and keep as many goats in the game as possible, including Sunday.

[hatchetgirl]

Quote

The live finale, at which the winner is revealed, hasn't happened yet.  The entire cast will get together this Wednesday for the only live portion of the season.

Unless they did it differently this season?

OH

EM

GEEEEE

I feel like such an idiot!  And I even said "live finale!!!"  Color me dumb!  Sorry gang...

/shrinks back into the dunce corner...

[Guest]

6 hours ago, himela said:

Adam was in no danger of leaving this last tribal, he was in a four people alliance in a seven people tribe. Also he doesn't need any more trust from people anymore at this point, it's an individual game.

If Hannah's on the jury, it benefits Adam to have her goodwill.  And it's hard to remain secure in your majority alliance if you steamroll the others' ideas.  And those four, if they're solid, will usually have to turn on each other in the end.  There's no telling what effect Hannah could have on his game.  

[Lamb18]

I finally watched the episode last night and the thing that struck me the most is how much Brett looks like Jessica, now that he's lost weight. They could have been separated at birth. Even the same bug eyes.

I really noticed Hannah's dirtiness, too, after reading the posts about it. I compared her to the others and they are sparkling clean next to her. I wonder is she is sensitive to salt water or if she has a bunch of bug bites or sores that would make going into salt water really painful.

[Rachel RSL]

8 hours ago, waving feather said:

Because if she had any intention of actually winning, she would get David out asap and bring any combination of Sunday, Ken or Bret with her there.

Hannah also might be thinking about who will take her to the final TC. Sunday has no allegiance whatsoever to Hannah so, if she somehow ended up in a position of power towards the end, odds are that she isn't bringing Hannah with her to the end. David, on the other hand, most likely would bring her. (He would bring her because he can beat her, most likely, but he'd still probably bring her.)

[green]

6 hours ago, ghoulina said:

But if he had pushed Hannah and Ken too hard to go his way, or was seen talking to Brett and Sunday about voting David, he COULD have put the target on his own back. Sometimes you have to throw your alliance members a bone.

Count me in on this and other posts about the vote.  It is real important NOT to push an alliance member too much to do things your way or all of a sudden they will decide your are the biggest threat trying to run the whole show and you will get blind sided at the next tribal council.

Yes David is a threat if he is in the final three and Adam knows it.  But neither Ken nor Hannah wanted to make that move.  So the best thing Adam could do in that particular situation is not endlessly squawk about David and have it get back to him and Adam finds himself voted off instead.  You got to know that the second best option is better than sticking your foot in your mouth and trying to force your will down other people's throats and getting voted out as a result.

Edited December 11, 2016 by green

[SVNBob]

12 hours ago, waving feather said:

But it is only good for [Hannah's] game if she just wants to sit in the FTC and has no intentions of winning.

Not necessarily.

Typically at least one person on the jury asks a question along the lines of "What moves did you make to get to FTC?".  (Probably going to be Zeke this time.)  And now Hannah has an answer for that, beyond joining the right "trust cluster".  The Sunday vote was entirely her idea.  And she was able to convince Adam, who was gung-ho for eliminating David or Jay, to follow her lead. 

So her move was not just the elimination of a goat, but masterminding and controlling that vote.  That's a pretty big move.  And since this seems to be a jury of players, that might just sway votes her way.

[waving feather]

23 minutes ago, SVNBob said:

Not necessarily.

Typically at least one person on the jury asks a question along the lines of "What moves did you make to get to FTC?".  (Probably going to be Zeke this time.)  And now Hannah has an answer for that, beyond joining the right "trust cluster".  The Sunday vote was entirely her idea.  And she was able to convince Adam, who was gung-ho for eliminating David or Jay, to follow her lead. 

So her move was not just the elimination of a goat, but masterminding and controlling that vote.  That's a pretty big move.  And since this seems to be a jury of players, that might just sway votes her way.

She can put that in her resume but at the end of the day, I doubt jurors would reward her with the title of sole survivor over David. Any configuration of FTC with David in the mix is a loss for her IMO.

Making moves for the sake of making moves doesn't mean much to me, unless it gets the player the win or where they want to go. Taking out David is much more impressive than taking out Sunday.

ETA: If her intention is to get the final goat position then mission accomplished. But this move will not get her the win IMO.

Edited December 11, 2016 by waving feather

[himela]

There are so many things we are not shown that I'm sure there is a big chance we as viewers will be blindsided in the final tribal council whoever is there. Last year we saw Michelle winning over Aubry while we were under the impression Michelle had done nothing and Aubry had this in the bag. Who knows if the opposite happens this season, meaning we could think Hannah did nothing but in the end she presents all her moves and makes the jurors vote for her? Producers are very scared of the obvious winner's edit so they have exaggerated this season in my opinion giving more than 10 people the winner's edit so we can't predict who wins. All six remaining players (and almost the whole jury) have (and had) a good chance of winning in my opinion. It's not black or white like Tony's season where only him was the one who was actually playing the game.

[Sarnia]

On 10/12/2016 at 0:36 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

What makes you think Probst is not supposed to know?  I think he gets briefed by the camp crews on what's going in the game.  It helps them form the right questions to ask at TC.  

I'm pretty sure he does know, but I'm not sure he's supposed to show that he knows. I think I read an interview where he said he didn't know what's going on in camp (but I may be remembering wrong).

[ghoulina]

23 hours ago, himela said:

Adam will have to vote David out sooner or later. It would be better for him to do it now and keep as many goats in the game as possible, including Sunday.

I can see this point. But like I said, if he pushed too hard for that move, HE might have ended up getting voted out instead. I've seen it happen a million times. Someone is leading the charge against another player, really pushing for it, and all of a sudden everyone else is like - "Wait, what about HIM?" 

Also, I have to wonder, if he HAD got the others to agree with him and they sent David home, would Jay, Sunday, and Brett have teamed back up? Better have the numbers for sure than another possible deadlock.

[Blissfool]

Why did ken  write "sunday's" ?

Is the misuse if apostrophes also a symptom of not eating for 35 days?

[Rachel RSL]

Yes.   #inthebubble

[303420]

Maybe was answering the question "Whose torch shall be snuffed tonight?"

[ljenkins782]

18 hours ago, waving feather said:

She can put that in her resume but at the end of the day, I doubt jurors would reward her with the title of sole survivor over David. Any configuration of FTC with David in the mix is a loss for her IMO.

Making moves for the sake of making moves doesn't mean much to me, unless it gets the player the win or where they want to go. Taking out David is much more impressive than taking out Sunday.

ETA: If her intention is to get the final goat position then mission accomplished. But this move will not get her the win IMO.

Final 3 IS where she wants to go. Her options for winning the game are limited at this point and getting rid of David is not a move she could have claimed as her own. Adam, Jay and probably several others are eager to get David out before F3, so the credit for that move would have been split amongst the group.

Quote

 

Why did ken  write "sunday's" ?

Is the misuse if apostrophes also a symptom of not eating for 35 days?

Quote

Yes.   #inthebubble

 

LOL!

[vibeology]

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 5:33 PM, hatchetgirl said:

I have no problem with Will or Jay crying.  It's such a big thing!  I'm just trying to figure out how he didn't get home if the show filmed the finale 2 days before she passed.  He wouldn't have been in Ponderosa, would he?  The finale is live, I thought, so I'd imagine, if the finale happened, and I was in his position, I'd book myself home ASAP!  But it really is neither here nor there.  I agree it's his family and his choice.  It's just heartbreaking seeing him crying so hard for his mom (completely reasonable) and not getting to her in time.  

I'm going to assume production had a charter arranged for the day after the final tribal for everyone so Adam didn't have a big choice in the matter. They normally film FTC at night so they probably have to wait until the morning to leave. There are only so many flights to and from Fiji every day and they would have had to travel first from the Mamanuca Islands to Veti Levu where both of the international airports are located possibly cutting off the morning flight. To fly back to the US is 14+ hours. I just imagine that logistically it wasn't feasible even if Adam had wanted to get home in a day or so.

[Hanahope]

2 hours ago, vibeology said:

I'm going to assume production had a charter arranged for the day after the final tribal for everyone so Adam didn't have a big choice in the matter. They normally film FTC at night so they probably have to wait until the morning to leave. There are only so many flights to and from Fiji every day and they would have had to travel first from the Mamanuca Islands to Veti Levu where both of the international airports are located possibly cutting off the morning flight. To fly back to the US is 14+ hours. I just imagine that logistically it wasn't feasible even if Adam had wanted to get home in a day or so.

This is what must be so heart-breaking for Adam.  His mom died 2 days after filming wrapped, so its entirely possible he missed her by less than a day.  He may always wonder if he should have stayed.  I know one time before Survivor had a contestant bow out right before filming because of a death in the family (her son I think it was) and they allowed her to be a contestant the following season.  She ended up getting booted real early because she was still moody and spent most of her time alone, rather than getting to know her tribe-mates, so she was an easy boot for them.

[Lingo]

On 12/9/2016 at 10:16 AM, fishcakes said:

I think the primary goal was to save David and preserve their numbers and only secondarily to flush Jay's idol. They were thinking there were 3 votes against David, so if they voted 4/3 and Jay played his idol (which seemed likely), then David would go home. But if they voted 3/3/1, then on the revote, David would be safe regardless of whether Jay played his idol or not.

But as I was typing that, I realized we did not see a revote, so I looked at the last part of the episode again. David/Ken/Adam/Hannah did all vote for Sunday. Jay and Bret voted for David, and the one lone vote for Jay was from Sunday. So now I don't know what any of them were thinking, but to me splitting the vote is the smarter move because then you don't have to worry about what Jay might do. Maybe Adam will loudly explain it to us at the beginning of the next episode.

OK, am I the only one who understands the rules, or am I the only one who doesn't understand the rules?? This still doesn't make any sense to me.

Nevermind what they actually did. David wanted to play 3 votes on Bret and one on Jay.  Let's say they did that, and the other 3 players vote for David. If Jay doesn't play his idol, it's a tie and they revote (Bret vs. David), presumably David's alliance all votes for Bret on the revote, and he goes home (3-2). If Jay does play his idol for himself, it changes nothing. It's still 3 votes Bret and 3 votes David, and the revote plays out as before. If Jay plays his idol for Bret, David goes home 3-1. There's no revote!

If instead they all 4 vote for Bret on the first vote, pretty much the same options play out except without the revote. If Jay doesn't play his idol, Bret goes home. If Jay plays it for himself, Bret still goes home. And if Jay plays it for Bret, David goes home.

The only situation I can think of in which that single vote would have a consequence is if somehow someone played idols for both Bret and David, which I don't think David was actually counting on!

Actually, forcing a revote is a riskier situation in that it tempts your alliance members into voting you out on the revote.

[Rachel RSL]

Actually, never mind. I'm confused too.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Rachel RSL

[Lingo]

OK, brainstorm. Maybe they weren't sure how Bret and Sunday were going to vote and were hoping to convince them to vote for Jay too? Then the vote split would have been 1 for David (from Jay), 3 for Bret, and 3 for Jay. Then on the revote they vote out Jay, because that's the one they want out most. But if Jay plays his idol then they can safely vote out Bret. Or if Bret and Sunday vote David, then they can just vote out Bret on the revote.

OK, I think that makes sense! Actually that's pretty clever now that I think about it. I wonder why they didn't go through with it.

[NutMeg]

On 12/12/2016 at 4:36 AM, ghoulina said:

I can see this point. But like I said, if he pushed too hard for that move, HE might have ended up getting voted out instead. I've seen it happen a million times. Someone is leading the charge against another player, really pushing for it, and all of a sudden everyone else is like - "Wait, what about HIM?" 

Also, I have to wonder, if he HAD got the others to agree with him and they sent David home, would Jay, Sunday, and Brett have teamed back up? Better have the numbers for sure than another possible deadlock.

I agree with your whole post but mostly with the second part. It would have been a good move, in theory, to vote David out, but then it's very likely that the block of Jay/Sunday/Brett will have kept voting together and Adam/Hannah/Ken would have soon followed David to loser lodge (LL). (I'm not sure they would be willing to go to purple rock - which is black, not purple !!!! :( - a second time with only three "eligible" players left.) It took me a while to understand why obvious threats who vote with a group of people are not sent to LL the first chance others have to send them there (a good example is Palau's Tom that one time he did not have immunity), but I get it now that for some it's less of a risk to keep the threat that will keep them to the end (and that they might have another chance of voting out later on) than it is to vote the threat out with the result that you're now in the minority and can quickly be voted out too.   

[fishcakes]

11 hours ago, Lingo said:

Nevermind what they actually did. David wanted to play 3 votes on Bret and one on Jay.  Let's say they did that, and the other 3 players vote for David. If Jay doesn't play his idol, it's a tie and they revote (Bret vs. David), presumably David's alliance all votes for Bret on the revote, and he goes home (3-2). If Jay does play his idol for himself, it changes nothing. It's still 3 votes Bret and 3 votes David, and the revote plays out as before. If Jay plays his idol for Bret, David goes home 3-1. There's no revote!

If instead they all 4 vote for Bret on the first vote, pretty much the same options play out except without the revote. If Jay doesn't play his idol, Bret goes home. If Jay plays it for himself, Bret still goes home. And if Jay plays it for Bret, David goes home.

Ohhh. Yes. You are correct. 

10 hours ago, Lingo said:

OK, brainstorm. Maybe they weren't sure how Bret and Sunday were going to vote and were hoping to convince them to vote for Jay too? Then the vote split would have been 1 for David (from Jay), 3 for Bret, and 3 for Jay. Then on the revote they vote out Jay, because that's the one they want out most. But if Jay plays his idol then they can safely vote out Bret. Or if Bret and Sunday vote David, then they can just vote out Bret on the revote.

That seems possible, but something about it bothers me. I just can't quite put my finger on it. David and Ken would have assumed that Bret and Sunday wouldn't flip on Jay for them, since their rivalry goes all the way back to David and Ken saving their inexplicably mortal enemy Jessica. However, they might think that they could use them to convince Jay to play his idol. Say that Adam "convinces" Bret and Sunday to flip and to vote with them 6-1 against Jay, but David knows that they'll go back to Jay and tell him to play his idol and send David home, so David's alliance decides to split the vote to guard against that. But Jay is not dumb, and he knows David and Adam aren't dumb, so he's going to figure this is a plot to get him to play his idol on himself while they vote out either Bret or Sunday on a split vote/revote. This increases the chances that Jay plays his idol for someone else, which is the only way that David goes home if Bret and Sunday are still with Jay, and David knows this. Meanwhile, here comes Adam who doesn't care if it's David or Jay who gets the boot so ...

And that's as far as I got along that line of reasoning before this started playing in my head:

I can't figure out what these guys are thinking/doing because there are still four good strategic players in David, Adam, Hannah, and Jay. In terms of gamesmanship, this is a better season than we've seen in ages.

Edited December 13, 2016 by fishcakes

[Jobiska]

Someone upthread asked who had the title quote and I, too, missed it and have been wondering.  Did anyone catch it?

[Rachel RSL]

I watched the episode a couple times and I didn't catch it. I wonder if maybe it was from the preview the week before or they just cut it out completely. 

[violet and green]

I thought it was ironic. The phrase "cut the head off the snake" was used by two different players - and then they booted Will and then Sunday (instead of David, who'd been referred to as one of the snake heads needing to be cut off). That's all I got!

[Dominii]

On 12/7/2016 at 9:58 PM, MattDuffysCat said:

Will looked like he walked off the set of The Brady Bunch at the second TC.

"When it's time to change, then it's time to chAaaAnge (voice breaking like Peter's). Now Will speaks only in basso profundo because he's THE MAN!

I've changed my mind. Because of some stupid moves on Ken's part, I'd like to see David take it. He's a great social player, and he deserves to win.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Dominii