OK...What's Next?

[Chicken Wing]

Quote

 

To the trumpers who are so naive that they still believe he's bringing back their coal mining jobs, please, turn off FOX or wherever you get your news.

Today on CNN the story was from Western PA to talk to a retired coal miner with black lung disease and two widows whose husbands died from the disease.

They voted for trump because he said he'd bring back the coal jobs and are now worried about loosing the benefits they now receive, about $640/month, to black lung victims and their survivors, through Obamacare.

Well sorry but on January 3rd the republicans have already said they will begin dismantling Obamacare.  Happy New Year trumpers and I hope you get what you voted for.

 

Which just highlights the fact that far, far too many people in this country are far, far too ignorant and don't even understand the choices they make half the time, knowingly or unknowingly voting against their own interests because they don't bother to learn the facts or look deeper than the sound bites and the one or two "good" promises they hear. And I too wish I could feel sorry for these people, these Trump voters who happen to be in the demographic most likely to be affected negatively by the things Trump intends to do, but they dug their own grave and made a choice that will drag the rest of us down with them.

Isn't it funny how this country is so abhorrent to the idea of socialism, but is it not a socialist idea to force everyone to pay for your stupidity?

So no, I don't feel sorry for these people either. If the Obamacare repeal goes through, now or in a couple of years or whatever their nonexistent strategy is right now, we all lose out, whether you're even dependent on Obamacare or not. We'll all be affected, and many of the demographics and specific groups who supported Trump are the ones who will lose the most, and they voted for him anyway, so, to hell with them. They did this to themselves. And for what? Because they believed Trump would bring their coal jobs back? Yeah, he's not doing that either. Coal jobs aren't coming back, and if they bothered to learn the facts or educate themselves on the issues affecting their own lives they would understand the real reasons why those jobs have been and will continue to be on the decline and why there is nothing Trump or any president can do to stop that. But hey, he put on a coal mining hat that one time. He must have a plan.

Why, why, why are people so stupid? My head hurts now.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Chicken Wing

[aradia22]

Not new information and obviously an oversimplification given the short run time of the video but I think it's useful in keeping some issues in perspective. And brushing up on history and facts is never a bad thing. I know it's accused of liberal bias but I picked up Zinn's A People's History of the United States (it accompanied my textbooks one year in high school) and I'll be dipping into it when I can find the time (I have some real world things to take care of). 

[aradia22]

Quote

There is no point in trying to discuss anything with people like this.  It is like trying to have a discussion with a brick.

I disagree. At least there's no solid proof that the brick isn't listening to you. Seriously, though, I'm sorry it's your dad and not someone you could cut out of your life. Feel free to come here and commiserate. 

Quote

I agree the Democratic leadership is ineffectual, moribund, and inexplicably passive. There are people trying to change this, but I don't know if they will succeed. It's sickening. WHY are they so weak?? The Republicans are highly organized, and whatever I think of their ideas, they are not passive and they get things done. It's maddening that the Dems don't even now have it together to respond to ANYTHING or capitalize on OPPORTUNITIES being handed to them SEVERAL TIMES A DAY. Morons.

I think in a lot of ways modern day politics is a war of influence fought with dollars. But I'm not sure if an influx of big Democratic donors (in league with their Republican counterparts) would be enough to provoke major changes. Instead of a conflict between the idealistic and dissatisfied branch and the more moderate and practical establishment, I wish there was more cooperation. Social change has been inspired by the angry and oppressed who were provoked enough to start demanding their basic rights. Positive change has also been effected by policy work and government systems. Somehow we ended up fighting and being sad and unenthused... when not too long ago during the primaries, it was the Republicans who had too many candidates that no one was really excited about. 

If there really is a liberal media, I'm waiting for the fight. Where are the articles? Where are the songs? Where are the movies and tv shows? Where is the news coverage? Now is the time to flood the networks and movie theaters and internet and whatever else with truth and positive propaganda. It's time to set a liberal agenda and start putting it into action. I'm not sure if any of the groups or institutions they belittle have real power but what can it hurt to start testing it? There must be at least the smallest bit of a threat if they bother calling them out in their fearmongering or trying to mock them into irrelevance. 

[Padma]

He looked so stupid wearing that miner's hat (or hard hat) and miming mining coal on stage. I mean, really, really stupid.  I thought surely Trump would be mocked relentlessly for it like Michael Dukakis was for putting on a helmet and riding in a tank.

Wrong. Instead, Trump got all the coal country votes.   Now what, though?  They think he's bringing back coal jobs and he can't.  (Also, they shouldn't come back.)  Or is his deregulation plan and environmental "plan" to get businesses back to W. Virginia to mine? Is that really a possibility?

I wish I felt sorry for people who voted in their own self-interest and thought that was "Trump". But they're going to ruin the country for the rest of us--and don't seem to give a damn about that--so I can't feel sorry for them--just angry--maybe one day, but not today. 

[Spartan Girl]

14 minutes ago, Padma said:

He looked so stupid wearing that miner's hat (or hard hat) and miming mining coal on stage. I mean, really, really stupid.  I thought surely Trump would be mocked relentlessly for it like Michael Dukakis was for putting on a helmet and riding in a tank. 

Seriously, it was like Martin Sheen's evil politician character in The Dead Zone, and we all know what future Christopher Walken saw...

[MulletorHater]

1 hour ago, Chicken Wing said:

Which just highlights the fact that far, far too many people in this country are far, far too ignorant and don't even understand the choices they make half the time, knowingly or unknowingly voting against their own interests because they don't bother to learn the facts or look deeper than the sound bites and the one or two "good" promises they hear. And I too wish I could feel sorry for these people, these Trump voters who happen to be in the demographic most likely to be affected negatively by the things Trump intends to do, but they dug their own grave and made a choice that will drag the rest of us down with them.

Isn't it funny how this country is so abhorrent to the idea of socialism, but is it not a socialist idea to force everyone to pay for your stupidity?

So no, I don't feel sorry for these people either. If the Obamacare repeal goes through, now or in a couple of years or whatever their nonexistent strategy is right now, we all lose out, whether you're even dependent on Obamacare or not. We'll all be affected, and many of the demographics and specific groups who supported Trump are the ones who will lose the most, and they voted for him anyway, so, to hell with them. They did this to themselves. And for what? Because they believed Trump would bring their coal jobs back? Yeah, he's not doing that either. Coal jobs aren't coming back, and if they bothered to learn the facts or educate themselves on the issues affecting their own lives they would understand the real reasons why those jobs have been and will continue to be on the decline and why there is nothing Trump or any president can do to stop that. But hey, he put on a coal mining hat that one time. He must have a plan.

Why, why, why are people so stupid? My head hurts now.

Le sighhhhh....I remember for a few years The Washington Post Magazine published very poignant articles about the lack of healthcare in Appalachia.  Every year, numerous healthcare providers, including dentists and other specialists, organized a mobile health clinic in either Tennessee, Kentucky or West Virginia.  People traveled from several states and sometimes camped for several nights to stand in long lines so they and their children could be examined by a doctor or dentist either--sometimes for the first and only times in their lives.  After physical exams were given in the several trailers set up, people were diagnosed with a myriad of chronic health issues, including hypertension, diabetes, vitamin deficiencies that led to other ailments, etc.  Because dental care was virtually nonexistent for some of the patients, teeth sometimes had to be pulled right then and there because they were so decayed.  The thing that concerned many of the doctors were the chronic conditions that require constant monitoring and medication, which a lot of the patients simply couldn't afford.  So they had to worry about what would happen to those patients after they left and hopefully returned a year later.  And, what about the healthy food that would provide the nutrients that so many were lacking?  What happened to the patients who were diagnosed with more serious diseases such as cancer?  Often there were no physicians within the patients' hometowns to refer them to for follow-up care, which was why the annual mobile health clinic was so popular in the first place.

Admittedly, my eyes would well up with tears by the time I finished the articles, and my cold cynical hard grown several sizes too big for my chest.  That is another casualty of this election for me--my sense of compassion for people who voted against their own interests because--reasons!  There was a time when I would have despaired but now I feel nothing.  Maybe that will change over time, but I don't see it happening anytime soon and that saddens me.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Chicken Wing said:

Isn't it funny how this country is so abhorrent to the idea of socialism, but is it not a socialist idea to force everyone to pay for your stupidity?

It's like the attitude about healthcare. They don't want coverage for people they haven't personally approved of, so they want to tell those people to go to the ER, which they can't pay for, so that eventually gets passed on to everybody. Insurance is cheaper in the longrun, but then they'd have to give up that sweet judgmentalness.

Meanwhile they're still telling themselves that the reason they can't afford healthcare is some darker-skinned person in an inner city somewhere who smokes and does drugs (and therefore deserves to be sick!) is getting free healthcare from Obama!

[Duke Silver]

Predictably (and understandably, IMHO) there has been media-critic pushback on reporting of #RussianHack (e.g. Glenn Greenwald of Edward Snowden fame, most notably), however:

[needschocolate]

10 hours ago, backformore said:

And @needschocolate  - are we related?  because you described my dad.   He hasn't heard of ANY of the stuff I tell him, but he knows for a fact that "crooked Hillary was up to no good with those emails."  He also thinks I'm gullible in thinking that Trump is corrupt, he'll only listen to my Trump supporting brother, because, you know, penis!

Well, it is possible.  My father,who hated Clinton because he lied about having an affair, had numerous affairs (which he lied about, of course) throughout his marriage to my mother.  We may be half-siblings.

Of course, the hating Clinton for lying was merely an excuse.  Clinton is a Democrat, so he was going to find a reason to hate him, even if Clinton never had an affair or had them and didn't lie.   

4 hours ago, Chicken Wing said:

So no, I don't feel sorry for these people either. If the Obamacare repeal goes through, now or in a couple of years or whatever their nonexistent strategy is right now, we all lose out, whether you're even dependent on Obamacare or not. We'll all be affected, and many of the demographics and specific groups who supported Trump are the ones who will lose the most, and they voted for him anyway, so, to hell with them. They did this to themselves. And for what? Because they believed Trump would bring their coal jobs back? Yeah, he's not doing that either. Coal jobs aren't coming back, and if they bothered to learn the facts or educate themselves on the issues affecting their own lives they would understand the real reasons why those jobs have been and will continue to be on the decline and why there is nothing Trump or any president can do to stop that. But hey, he put on a coal mining hat that one time. He must have a plan.

I try to be an optimist - power of positive thinking and all that - so, when it gets overwhelming, I like to imagine (yeah, I know it is purely fiction)  Trump is actually a liberal genius (I said it was fiction) whose plan is it get all these people, who used to be Democrats but now think the republican/tea party represents them, to vote for him and then he will screw them over so badly that they will re-align with the Democrats and in 2018 the republicans will no longer have control of Congress.  

I heard an interesting description of how the parties have evolved over the past few decades.  The republicans used to be the party of the rich and upper middle class - the people who ran companies, owned small businesses, the ones with professional degrees. They wanted less government involvement and lower taxes/spending, and were anti-union. The Democrats were the party of the less educated, the lower middle class and the poor, the young and idealistic, the union members. Then, in the 1990's, the democrats started becoming the party of the young intellectuals.  The poor and the newly poor (those who had lost their jobs or whose jobs, which once were enough to have a middle class life, now earned them too little) felt left out.  They had grown up in a country where almost everyone was Christian and those who didn't share their morals were chastised.  Now the country seemed to be headed toward the proverbial gutter (more sex on TV, abortions, homosexuals), was being over-run with foreigners and they were being told that they had to accept that the foreigners had different beliefs and holidays.  People started saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas and they felt that their America was ending and the democrats didn't represent them anymore. The republican party became more pro-christianity and the democrats who felt their world was ending latched on.  And whatever the republicans tell them must be true because God is on their side.

I know my dream of Trump being a secret genius is ridiculous, but I do have hope that the plans that Trump carry out will cause these people to lose faith in the republican party and allow the democrats the opportunity to gain them back.   

3 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I disagree. At least there's no solid proof that the brick isn't listening to you. Seriously, though, I'm sorry it's your dad and not someone you could cut out of your life. Feel free to come here and commiserate. 

The brick may be listening, but the brick is also twisting around what it hears.

[backformore]

4 hours ago, Padma said:

He looked so stupid wearing that miner's hat (or hard hat) and miming mining coal on stage. I mean, really, really stupid.  I thought surely Trump would be mocked relentlessly for it like Michael Dukakis was for putting on a helmet and riding in a tank.

you mean this one?  (Sorry , I have to give you Colbert's take on it because it's so hilarious)

[aradia22]

Quote

The brick may be listening, but the brick is also twisting around what it hears.

You don't know that. Basically, I think I'm advocating for pet rocks. 

[Duke Silver]

From Masha Gessen:

The Most Powerful Men in the World

Quote

Putin made it clear that he views the outcome of the American election as the end of a struggle for world domination—hence the reference to his September 2015 speech at the United Nations General Assembly. Back then he traveled to New York for his first address to the UN in a decade. He offered the United States a deal: Russia would help in Syria if the US government would withdraw its criticism of Russia’s actions in Ukraine. President Obama snubbed the offer, and Russia responded by entering the Syrian conflict on the side of Bashar al-Assad. Putin framed Russia’s actions in Syria as a battle against the American-dominated world order. It is this battle that he sees himself as having won on November 8.

 

Quote

 

Does this mean that we are entering a new Cold War? No—it’s worse. The Cold War was fought by men who had different visions of the future—the ideologies of the two sides were battling for the right to define societies to come. This made the prospect of mutually assured destruction an effective deterrent. We now know that on several occasions one or the other side took a crucial step back from the brink.

Trump and Putin, on the other hand, lack a concept of the future. In Putin’s version of the clash of civilizations, we have only a threatening Western present versus an imaginary Eurasian past. In Trump’s case, the threatening present is global while the alluring past is American. Both men traffic in appeals to the local and the familiar from the past against the frighteningly strange future. They are also both short-tempered, thin-skinned, not very bright, and disinclined to listen to advisers—all major risk factors for escalation. But it is their shared inability to look ahead that poses the greatest danger to the world.

 

[Duke Silver]

Ohhh, this old chestnut...not tolerating intolerance is bad!!!  Demanding inclusion of those of different races, creeds, etc. means one must also welcome bigotry & racism!!  Refusing to accept intolerance invalidates demands for equal rights!!! /sarcasm

These fucking bigoted, illogical clowns.  Unreal.

[sistermagpie]

Whenever they say Democrats are losing because of this I just remember that Democratic positions are actually more popular.

I saw a clip from some show recently where a host was making that argument, that the Trump win was a lot about people not liking pc culture where they felt like they couldn't say whatever, that they were sick of being condescended to or shunned for what they said and I wanted the woman to say, "Well, the thing is, that's not something the government decides." I mean, the same people who thought you were racist yesterday feel that way today. If you felt condescended to because you're anti-gay marriage you're still going to feel that way. It's like the Merry Christmas thing. The president wasn't keeping you from saying it before and he's not allowing you to say it now. And as ever, everyone notices when the only form of tolerance you champion is how bigots should be praised.

[Duke Silver]

[galaxygirl76]

21 hours ago, stormy said:

To the trumpers who are so naive that they still believe he's bringing back their coal mining jobs, please, turn off FOX or wherever you get your news.

Today on CNN the story was from Western PA to talk to a retired coal miner with black lung disease and two widows whose husbands died from the disease.

They voted for trump because he said he'd bring back the coal jobs and are now worried about loosing the benefits they now receive, about $640/month, to black lung victims and their survivors, through Obamacare.

Well sorry but on January 3rd the republicans have already said they will begin dismantling Obamacare.  Happy New Year trumpers and I hope you get what you voted for.

I'm confused about why they want the very same jobs back that killed their husbands.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, galaxygirl76 said:

I'm confused about why they want the very same jobs back that killed their husbands.

Because it's the job they had before and the ones their grandparents had. This is the argument I have literally heard made on TV. There's no dignity in working on a computer.

[annzeepark914]

10 hours ago, MulletorHater said:

Le sighhhhh....I remember for a few years The Washington Post Magazine published very poignant articles about the lack of healthcare in Appalachia.  Every year, numerous healthcare providers, including dentists and other specialists, organized a mobile health clinic in either Tennessee, Kentucky or West Virginia.  

They also go every year, in late summer, to a fairground in southwestern Virginia (another section of Appalachia) and the people were standing in line for hours, sometimes all night.  One family, this past year, walked for 4 hours to the fairgrounds.  I saw a program on PBS that interviewed some of these people and most of them voted Republican (federal and even for the VA state legislature where the GOP has refused to let the Governor increase Medicaid coverage). And yes, almost all of them need to have a tooth pulled.  I used to feel sorry for them until that program where so many of them said they supported smaller government, didn't like those folks who got govt. handouts (really?), admired folks who pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, and all that malarkey that they're fed by Faux Newz, Rush, etc.  Except for the kids.  My heart breaks for them.  So, this year is an election year in Virginia.  We elect a governor and our state delegates and senators.  It will be interesting to see how Trump as commander in chief influences this election.

[Duke Silver]

[possibilities]

This radio program has three stories. The first two help to explain why I am so worked up about trying to engage with people who are irrational and dangerous and not receptive (the third story is interesting but not related to this subject).

http://www.npr.org/programs/invisibilia/485603559/flip-the-script?showDate=2016-07-15

I don't want to be a pain in the ass about it, but I do hope some will give it a listen (I'm begging you, all tha tother annoying undignified stuff, rolling out my soapbox, etc). I think it's a fairly enjoyable listen, but also I just feel so deeply that it's one of the more effective ways to begin to change things, even though it does seem futile and like a giant waste a lot of the time.

I think what these stories show is what would help with people who vote against their own interests as well as with those who are campaigning against others.

In my personal life, I've had a few times when I've adopted what I think of as "Santa for the Naughty" and been friendly to people who were unpleasant in a number of ways, some of whom scared me, and it's turned them into allies when I didn't expect it. Maybe this is why I keep beating this drum.

Again, I totally get it why it's not always viable or appealing, and I don't do it all the time either. So no pressure-- I figure we each can suss out and decide in specific situations what we are best positioned to do. But I just had to say this one more thing about it, fwiw.

Thanks for letting me vent about it. I'm off to watch stupid tv (Scorpion-- a truly stupid show that I can't seem to quit) and be emotionally manipulated and intellectually apathetic for an hour.

[Duke Silver]

[possibilities]

It really is amazing how blatantly they are eviscerating everything that could even possibly be considered reasonable.

I thought the new congress hasn't even been sworn in yet, but I guess when you're making a naked power grab, you like to get an early start.

[possibilities]

THIS

[BetyBee]

8 hours ago, possibilities said:

THIS

Wow!  This makes a lot of sense.  

[Pixel]

15 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

Wow!  This makes a lot of sense.  

Well, yeah. It's kind of hard to be smug and self-righteous when someone lays it out for you like that, isn't it?  I felt a little guilty reading that.  

[random chance]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Because it's the job they had before and the ones their grandparents had. This is the argument I have literally heard made on TV. There's no dignity in working on a computer.

That doesn't even make any logical sense. Suppose their grandfather repaired rotary phones, or typewriters, or VCRs -- would we have to keep those things around just so they'd be employed?

As for the link above - I always come back to this: white college-educated women put Trump in office. Unless that statistic was a lie. For some reason everyone zeroes in on the poor and uneducated element, but all the blame is not on their heads.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, BetyBee said:

Wow!  This makes a lot of sense.  

Does it?  Dems are blamed for not being there to help so how can they expect people to vote for them, BUT Republicans were there often - except they clearly also didn't do anything to help since the people received no help except from the likes of volunteers like the writer,, so I thought the article didn't make sense. 

The only thing that made sense to me was that government services were not available in their immediate communities, and it was a hardship to go to the nearest county - that is a huge problem.  But then there was also the assertion made these people didn't want "handouts from the government" so that also didn't quite make sense.

I'm just saying, it was emotional and compelling and troubling, but not necessarily logical, and so was less powerful for me as an opinion to learn from.

[aradia22]

Quote

Why do we expect people growing up in this kind of environment would somehow become emotionally and psychologically healthy, rational, critically thinking, outside news trusting voters?  

Wouldn't Hillary Clinton be more like Grandma then and Trump more like the bullying abusers? I think there are some salient points made in the rant but if you aren't capable of critical thinking and rational decisions, maybe you shouldn't vote. It's not that I think people should be barred from voting but clearly plenty of people sit elections out. 

Quote

 So, even if they DID have time and energy, exactly how and where do you think they would get OUR liberal messages from afar?  They listen to the folks who show up to help them.  And, we ain’t there.

I think this ignores the fact that there are major problems even in liberal coastal cities like NY, San Francisco, LA, etc. There are people who have to be helped here too. But putting that aside, I think a large part of her argument seems to be that there are religious (and to a lesser extent political) groups out there helping people and spreading a message that is in line with the Republican establishment. I can see where this would be tempting but what I struggle with is where things take a turn from loving thy neighbor and charity and doing good works to no birth control or abortions. Surely, living in rural communities where there is little access to the resources she mentions, there would also be little access to birth control so this has to be an issue that comes up. And while I understand her attempt to humanize the people in these communities, this is another article that sidesteps any mention of racism, sexism, or xenophobia. Is that something that's not relevant for these people or is it just something the writer thinks will vanish if these people get the help that they need?

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, random chance said:

That doesn't even make any logical sense. Suppose their grandfather repaired rotary phones, or typewriters, or VCRs -- would we have to keep those things around just so they'd be employed?

 

I always wonder if we're going to see government subsidized blacksmiths for the same reason--and wonder why they don't care about the reporters at print newspapers!

1 hour ago, random chance said:

As for the link above - I always come back to this: white college-educated women put Trump in office. Unless that statistic was a lie. For some reason everyone zeroes in on the poor and uneducated element, but all the blame is not on their heads.

Also didn't statistics show that people who are really really poor went for Hillary? I think some people who are very poor actually are aware of which politician wants to take away the one thing they're surviving on. Sure there's plenty of people who think they can vote to end help for "those other people" but I'm not sure the statistics bore out the idea that everyone did that. Like you said, college-educated white women. Who are also voting against their own interests.

1 hour ago, izabella said:

Does it?  Dems are blamed for not being there to help so how can they expect people to vote for them, BUT Republicans were there often - except they clearly also didn't do anything to help since the people received no help except from the likes of volunteers like the writer,, so I thought the article didn't make sense. 

I do think that the thing she was saying was a good idea regardless, though. I mean, people should help just to help--this is exactly the type of thing Democrats are better at in terms of their policies. As you say, the right is just making things worse. But there does also seem to be that odd thing where they don't want government handouts but are okay with charity handouts.

[possibilities]

If you read the comments below the article, she addresses the statistics. (Briefly: poor POC voted for Clinton, poor whites voted for Trump, at least in her experience. Poor whites with more education also voted for Clinton-- more details if you read the website comments.)

We have to decide whether we prefer to criticize people or whether we prefer to win their votes. I think that being illogical is a problem, but winning people over is more important than focusing on how we wish they were different. Wishing will get you nowhere, morally or electorally. Action will achieve goals, which for me includes both helping people and winning elections, so it's a win-win.

I also think that if you want to change white middle class women or wealthy people in general, you can focus on that, and it may require a different approach than winning votes from white people in poverty, but if we win the votes of poor people, that won't matter as much. There are far more poor people than rich, and we don't need self-destructive moneyed bigots to win. Also wealthy and middle class whites don't need the help as much, so if they vote against their own interests, whatever. It's their problem. But by all means, if anyone has a strategy or explanation for changing their minds as well, I'm interested.

The Dems have given up on the South, and they shouldn't. If the Dems weren't so happy to be white gloved governors, and actually did what the article suggests, they could be more successful. BILL Clinton did it. He was trailer park "trash" himself and everyone knew it. His policies were terrible for poor people, but if we actually had people who could appeal AND have good policy, that would be great. People would have voted for Bill a third time if he hadn't been term limited; I think there's hope if we run candidates that actually have the policy and the persona. Why don't we try that? It's not like we're proving a point by running and losing with people who don't.

I disagree that people should just not vote. I wish people were informed and rational and made what I consider to be good choices. But we've had things like literacy tests and poll taxes and other crap that kept people from voting, and it sure didn't make for a better government. We need to do something other than writing people off. I think the Dems would be a better party if they did what the writer is suggesting, and didn't just clutch their pearls and act shocked every time they lose. They need to stop being white glove ivory tower dwellers and get into the communities they supposedly want to represent, and figure out what is needed. Remember RFK doing his tour and being horrified about poverty? It's not enough to sort of intellectually know something is out there. You have to feel it.

Even with the "educated selfish white bigots" -- on one level, I don't care, they annoy me and I just want them to go away. But on another level, what the hell is their problem? Unless we plan to just enact a death penalty for all shitty people, at some level it would be good to figure out what the hell the fix is, rather than just feeling frustrated and hoping they magically disappear or can be ignored without peril.

[Ms.Moon]

Called my aunt in Trinidad yesterday to wish her a Happy New Year, so many friends she had made here in the United States have up sticks and moved back home.  The crime rate in Trinidad is crazy (Americans love drugs and Trinidad unfortunately is pretty close to South America and drugs are moved through the country), prices for land is crazy expensive like New York expensive (a piece of land with no house on it in the now suburb where I grew up just a few blocks from where I actually grew up went for half a million US dollars).  People who have property back home are moving back, some were here illegally and did not want to get deported, others wanted to get while the getting was still good.  They sold their homes here in the States while they're worth something and they went back home to enjoy their lives.  These are retirement age people of course contemporaries of my aunt's but I hear so many people wanting to do just this just get out while they still can.  

[possibilities]

Repubs back off ethics office gutting: http://www.npr.org/2017/01/03/508043376/after-trump-tweets-criticism-house-gop-drops-weakening-of-house-ethics-office

...at least for now

[Pixel]

1 minute ago, possibilities said:

Repubs back off ethics office gutting: http://www.npr.org/2017/01/03/508043376/after-trump-tweets-criticism-house-gop-drops-weakening-of-house-ethics-office

...at least for now

I feel like this is a tiny pinprick of hope - at least ONE thing they've tried to do has bit them in the ass.  I was starting to think they were going to keep getting away with whatever the fuck they wanted without anyone raising so much as an eyebrow.

[Broderbits]

12 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Repubs back off ethics office gutting: http://www.npr.org/2017/01/03/508043376/after-trump-tweets-criticism-house-gop-drops-weakening-of-house-ethics-office

...at least for now

The key words being "for now". I saw lots of comments online that trump reminded them of priorities to make himself look good while also calling the ethics office "unfair". Purely a PR move on the part of someone who has no beliefs other than "I must WIN". Now the GOP can get busy on gutting Social Security & Medicare and the downward slog of America. January 20th should be a national day of mourning.

[aradia22]

The sad is creeping back up on me again. It's partially what I've been reading and watching this morning but also just the inexplicable sad that sometimes falls over me. So far it's not the heavy, oppressive sad yet. But I have something to do tonight and I'm definitely going to do that. But I would also like to leave the house before that. But I also don't know if I'm going to make that happen. I've planned to talk to a friend Thursday and I'm sure that will make me feel better but it's two days until Thursday and I can't sit around like a lump until then. 

[DollEyes]

On 12/31/2016 at 10:12 PM, galaxygirl76 said:

Maybe Obama can shrug his shoulders and claim he lost the keys to the White House. That should give us a week, minimum.

Or say that one of the dogs buried them. 

[backgroundnoise]

I wouldn't be surprised if Trump and the House make a deal:  Let us gut the ethics committee and we'll "relax" those pesky conflicts of business interest requirements for you.

[izabella]

Even Golf.com is more worried about Trumputin's conflicts of interest than the Trumpets in Congress:

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/trump-world-golf-club-dubai-shows-potential-pitfalls-presidency

Teen Vogue, Golf.com, who's next? 

Edited January 3, 2017 by izabella

[Pixel]

17 minutes ago, izabella said:

Even Golf.com is more worried about Trumputin's conflicts of interest than the Trumpets in Congress:

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/trump-world-golf-club-dubai-shows-potential-pitfalls-presidency

Teen Vogue, Golf.com, who's next? 

Entertainment Weekly.

[Chicken Wing]

Highlights, at this rate.

[Padma]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

Repubs back off ethics office gutting: http://www.npr.org/2017/01/03/508043376/after-trump-tweets-criticism-house-gop-drops-weakening-of-house-ethics-office

...at least for now

Trump criticized the timing of it, but not the "unfairness" of the watchdog.  My guess is they'll do it again in six months. But, still, with a day of Republicans high-fiving their "unity" and what they'll be doing--basically unchallenged--to America it was a nice start to the 115th Congress to see them forced to pull back on that. 

 Ryan got cheers for claiming"the American people have given us a mandate for our agenda".  Uh....no. Not a majority of votes for your president and not a majority of votes--nation-wide--for your Congress. And you lost 2 seats in the senate and 6 in the House. Just saying.

I should have known the Clintons and Bushes would show up for the inauguration, but the optics of them all sitting obediently behind Donald Trump is still going to be painful.

[MulletorHater]

1 hour ago, Pixel said:

I feel like this is a tiny pinprick of hope - at least ONE thing they've tried to do has bit them in the ass.  I was starting to think they were going to keep getting away with whatever the fuck they wanted without anyone raising so much as an eyebrow.

But, once again, some pundits are crediting the Puerile Pervert for the turnaround, which is a bunch of bullshit.  Coral Caligula didn't say that the weakening of the the Office of Congressional Ethics shouldn't be done; he said that it could have waited a little bit.  But, once again the media have allowed him to place himself in the middle of the story.  And, like the lapdogs they are, they try to paint it as some kind of rebuke.  A "rebuke" in a 140-character Tweet, feigning horror and surprise.  And, this same media will turn around and bemoan being hoodwinked by Coral Caligula yet again.  Look, you nimrods, it was not his Tweet that caused this turnaround; it was the numerous phone calls from angry constituents that caused the GOP to back off.  

As for Drumpf--sorry, but you don't get to look honorable when you are basically telling your spineless enablers, "Look, guys--thanks for the leg up, but could you try not to look so obvious?"  Because this will not be the last time the GOP tries this.  And, to paraphrase Drumpf's girl, Leona Helmsley:  Ethics like taxes are for the little people!  At the end of the day, the Fanta Fuhrer's surrogates have already planted the seed in which the rules should be gutted so that he isn't held accountable for his numerous ethical lapses and conflicts of interest.  So, no--he should not be canonized especially while he is pressing forward with an agenda that will enrich himself and the rest of his Billionaire Boys Club--to which Newt the Aging Satyr is not a member.

I frankly found it fascinating that this same craven bunch, who were vowing to give us 4 years of Hillary Clinton investigations are so willing to roll over and play dead for the Fanta Fuhrer.  But, I also have to remember that this is the same bunch that hollered that Hillary should be denied security briefings in the wake of Comey's ambiguous letter while acting passive about their dear leader's playing footsie with Putin.  

They were stopped--this time.  That's why we can never sit passively by when our so-called leaders forget that they work for us.  Democracy is not a spectator sport.

[izabella]

It drives me crazy that the criticisms of the ACA are exactly the reasons we should never privatize Medicaid and Medicare.  But I'm sure Congress will change it's tune when it comes time for Ryan to implement his master privatization plans:
 

Quote

 

In a statement, Republican Senate Budget Committee chairman Mike Enzi said the GOP is set on fixing a "broken" national health care system.

"Americans face skyrocketing premiums and soaring deductibles," Enzi said. "Insurers are withdrawing from markets across the country, leaving many families with fewer choices and less access to care than they had before -- the opposite of what the law promised."

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/03/politics/senate-obamacare-resolution/

[ruby24]

Did anyone read the Marie Claire article about the Rockettes meeting behind the scenes. God, that manager Dolan sounds like an asshole! He admits he's asking them to be "tolerant of intolerance."

This is what these people want. They want their racism, bigotry and misogyny treated as just "another opinion." FUCK that. I will never, ever cower to being tolerant of intolerance. The abolitionists of the 19th century were considered radicals and loons because they were ahead of their time and openly crusading against the evils of slavery and slaveholders in an era where that was considered a minority view. But they were 100% right. Well, they're my kindred spirits.

I hope the Rockettes refuse to do this, but he's basically begging them. Comparing it to them dancing on the 4th of July, comparing people pressuring them to the ones being hateful of "other opinions." Must be nice to not be burdened with caring about other people, you jackass.

[Padma]

The ACA has a lot of problems--increasingly high premiums despite big govt subsidies (that you'd think pander to and would attract major insurers but apparently don't), decreasing numbers of providers and huge co-pays. 

But...I don't get the Republicans' obsession with repealing it when they have nothing to take its place.  That is taking insurance away from 20 million people--including some who are very ill and in the middle of expensive and complicated treatments.

And what's the itch to cut Medicaid, too?  Why pick on the poor and middle class?  And why aren't the media all over this as the embodiment of the "Republicans for the rich" mantra?  Ryan talked a lot about "our mandate to help average, working class Americans", but that's not what they are actually planning to DO with their agenda of:

*repealing ACA
*cutting Medicaid
*tax cuts for the richest Americans & corporations (including abolishing the estate tax--currently for over $5 million)
*deregulation of industry to weaken environmental quality and labor safety standards
*repeal Dodd-Frank so banks can have a repeat of the 2008 financial catastrophe
*abolish the Consumer Protection Agency, because why should we protect consumers? We're here for corporate America.

Those are their top priorities.  Where does "helping working and middle class Americans" fit in with that?

Oh, and I forgot this one:

* privatize the VA 

[Ms.Moon]

I'm tired of paying ungrateful children's bills New York gets back much less than we send to the feds and I am tired of paying for stuff in Alabama since they hate me.  I will be writing to Chuck Schumer and asking him to get back as much of that money here to New York and California should too we're paying the bills of "real America" and we shouldn't have to.  I hate being that parent paying the bills, and rent for ungrateful children they should pull up their own bootstraps West Virginia you are on your own.  

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

But...I don't get the Republicans' obsession with repealing it when they have nothing to take its place.  That is taking insurance away from 20 million people--including some who are very ill and in the middle of expensive and complicated treatments.

It's not hard for me to understand, this is about racism and hate toward Obama and his legacy. They care more about that kind of evil than they do the people that they are suppose to serve. 

They want to tear the ACA down as if it never existed, instead of like Obama said, building on it, fixing it. Obama had an hour interview with VICE news and talked about how all the social programs started out with problems, but that you are suppose to build on them and make them better. He's not delusional enough to act like it doesn't have huge problems. The republicans can make it better and take legitimate credit for making it better, but they don't care about the people at all. All they care about is being racist, period. They don't want Obama's name on anything that's good, they would love to erase him from history. Sorry, I can't afford to think otherwise until I see a different pattern of behavior from them and I haven't so it's pretty simple for me to understand their obsession.

We've reached true levels of insanity and their kind of hate equals insanity. When one reaches a certain level of hate it turns into insane behavior and that's where the republican part is...I see them as insane so their obsession is not confusing for me at all.

[navelgazer]

16 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

It's not hard for me to understand, this is about racism and hate toward Obama and his legacy. They care more about that kind of evil than they do the people that they are suppose to serve. 

They want to tear the ACA down as if it never existed, instead of like Obama said, building on it, fixing it. Obama had an hour interview with VICE news and talked about how all the social programs started out with problems, but that you are suppose to build on them and make them better. He's not delusional enough to act like it doesn't have huge problems. The republicans can make it better and take legitimate credit for making it better, but they don't care about the people at all. All they care about is being racist, period. They don't want Obama's name on anything that's good, they would love to erase him from history. Sorry, I can't afford to think otherwise until I see a different pattern of behavior from  them and I haven't so it's pretty simple for me to understand their obsession.

We've reached true levels of insanity and their kind of hate equals insanity. When one reaches a certain level of hate it turns into insane behavior and that's where the republican part is...I see them as insane so their obsession is not confusing for me at all.

Thank you so very much for answering that question and explaining so clearly and concisely.  It's not confusing for me at all either.  

My maternal grandfather was a n*****, w******, s***-spewing racist.  My mom, OTOH, was a McGovern Democrat, volunteered for McGovern in LA and then in the San Joaquin Valley.  Mom got tired of the racist language at family gatherings and politely asked clearly for them to stop.  Joining Grandpa in the pile-on was Mom's brother and her brother-in-law as the patriarchs of the family who just loved using that language just to upset Mom.  

Anyway, when enough was enough, Mom said I'm leaving if you don't stop.  They wouldn't stop, so she left (and thankfully brought me and my brother with her).  Then came the real power in the family, Grandma, who we always called the iron fist in the velvet glove.  If Grandma cried at you, you were sunk because you were going to do what Grandma wanted whether you realized it at the time or not.  We had at least verbally racism-free family gatherings after that.  Thanks Grandma.  

All of that is why my answer to that question is it's the racism, the deeply held, vicious racism.  

(The family migrated back and forth between California and Oklahoma many times.  We were in Oklahoma at this time.)  

[Moose135]

57 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

God, that manager Dolan sounds like an asshole!

Little Jimmy Dolan? Yeah, he really is.

[fastiller]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

Did anyone read the Marie Claire article about the Rockettes meeting behind the scenes. God, that manager Dolan sounds like an asshole! He admits he's asking them to be "tolerant of intolerance."

 

22 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

Little Jimmy Dolan? Yeah, he really is.

Better explanation: he's a crack-cocaine addled twerp.

1 hour ago, Padma said:

The ACA has a lot of problems--increasingly high premiums despite big govt subsidies (that you'd think pander to and would attract major insurers but apparently don't), decreasing numbers of providers and huge co-pays. 

But...I don't get the Republicans' obsession with repealing it when they have nothing to take its place.  That is taking insurance away from 20 million people--including some who are very ill and in the middle of expensive and complicated treatments.

 

56 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

It's not hard for me to understand, this is about racism and hate toward Obama and his legacy. They care more about that kind of evil than they do the people that they are suppose to serve. 

They want to tear the ACA down as if it never existed, instead of like Obama said, building on it, fixing it. Obama had an hour interview with VICE news and talked about how all the social programs started out with problems, but that you are suppose to build on them and make them better. He's not delusional enough to act like it doesn't have huge problems. The republicans can make it better and take legitimate credit for making it better, but they don't care about the people at all. All they care about is being racist, period. They don't want Obama's name on anything that's good, they would love to erase him from history. Sorry, I can't afford to think otherwise until I see a different pattern of behavior from them and I haven't so it's pretty simple for me to understand their obsession.

We've reached true levels of insanity and their kind of hate equals insanity. When one reaches a certain level of hate it turns into insane behavior and that's where the republican part is...I see them as insane so their obsession is not confusing for me at all.

Yes - it's erasing the black man's work.  It's the 2017 political equivalent to Presley, etc., co-opting the blues to make it palatable to white America.

59 minutes ago, Ms.Moon said:

I'm tired of paying ungrateful children's bills New York gets back much less than we send to the feds and I am tired of paying for stuff in Alabama since they hate me.  I will be writing to Chuck Schumer and asking him to get back as much of that money here to New York and California should too we're paying the bills of "real America" and we shouldn't have to.  I hate being that parent paying the bills, and rent for ungrateful children they should pull up their own bootstraps West Virginia you are on your own.  

Yep! Living in a donor city! Ain't it grand?!