S01.E07: Trompe L'Oeil

[nachomama]

Maybe it's cheaper for Ford to kill his adversaries and make their bots out of their bones? Would seem easier than 3D printing the whole shebang. OMG HE TURNED INTO BUFFALO BILL! He's making people suits! He does creepy so very good.

I've never liked Tessa Thompson since Veronica Mars. blah. Ford can make a bot out of her.

I think I'm confused in a good way, no clue how Dolores veered off into William territory when she was supposedly in love with Teddy and it may be 2 different time lines but yeah, I vote no on banging Lyle the intern.

[ACW]

14 hours ago, feverfew said:

As @DarkRaichu said, she might be the daughter of the CEO of Delos or a close relative (would make sense to be Logan's daughter if you buy into the two timeline theory - they have the same hedonistic callousness). Actually, for me it's the only way it'll make sense - Tessa Thompson simply is too young. Her age completely threw me in the last episode; I've been commending the show on its use of age appropriate actors and here some head of the board, straight from a CW show shows up instead. Imagine her played by Angela Bassett instead - that I could buy! So - family company it must be.

 

  I still think she's related to Arnold (which could give her quite a lot of stock and other influence in Delos).   Which, if Bernard really is modeled after Arnold, should imply that Charlotte knows that Bernard is a bot, which makes firing him a little strange; although it's barely plausible that Arnold was so secretive that even relatives haven't seen a good picture of him (and she's is young enough that she never would have seen him in person).

Edited November 15, 2016 by ACW

[morgankobi]

1 hour ago, nachomama said:

I think I'm confused in a good way, no clue how Dolores veered off into William territory when she was supposedly in love with Teddy and it may be 2 different time lines but yeah, I vote no on banging Lyle the intern.

It seems her "loop" is for her to be with Teddy only if no guests interact wither and save her. Teddy seems to be her way of practicing, as Bernard would say, until a guest is in her story.

[MrWhyt]

14 hours ago, gwhh said:

This is a great show. But it would be awersome. If they cut back on the foul language and all the rape and beating up of woman underlining sub plots!  Anyone else thinking that?  

Fuck no

Edited November 15, 2016 by MrWhyt

[gwhh]

I think that tech (what her name) is still alive!!  I wish someone would kill that nasty female board lady!  How gross walking over to the door naked and covered in sex juice!  Do they only hire unbalanced, sex crazed, psychopaths at that company??  Is there a HR test for that???

Edited November 15, 2016 by gwhh

[jojozigs]

Man, people sure are harsh on our young white hat.  

Maybe it's because I'm a gamer (especially games like Dragon Age and KOTOR) and before that I've always been very into imagining I'm somewhere other than the real world via whatever media, books, movies, TV , etc... but I really, totally and completely understand William getting swept away and feeling more alive in Westworld than he ever did in reality.  Instead of grasping and grinding away just to get a little bit ahead in a world that has no apparent meaning, In Westworld he can do something, here he can make an impact on other people's lives - an impact that feels very real and genuine.  And though yes, he's objectively aware that Delores and others are robots designed for his pleasure, he is listening to his SOUL and I think he knows at a visceral level the real actual truth - that these people are every bit as alive, self-aware, and real as that douchebag he ditched a couple episodes back.  Heck probably more so.  

Why wouldn't we cheer for that??  I just don't get the hate. 

If William ends up being the MIB I'll have mixed feelings, but not because I dislike William or think he's a loser or a faker.  I think he's a moral, empathetic person and he's having a genuine reaction to this world.  I'll just be upset that William completely loses his idealism and becomes capable of horrible sadistic things that we witnessed in the first 3 episodes. The fact the MIB still supposedly believes in the world of westworld and yet doesn't believe in the humanity of its people is...  I dont' know, weird.  I don't really understand how that works.  I feel like, either you reject it as fake or not.  It's hard for me to understand the perspective of the MIB, most especially if he is William.  

As for Delores falling for William, I have mixed feelings.  On one hand, it probably is part of her programming that if a heroic male guest comes along and sweeps her off her feet, she will choose them even over Teddy.  I'm guessing that she is a bit of a tough nut and it takes some major heroism to activate her as a romance.  On the other hand, she is becoming self-aware, obviously, and maybe this really is something organic that differs from her programming or may be complementary to it but she'd make the choice regardless of her programming?  Either way it was obvious to me why William kept rejecting her - and it's not because of douchebag's sister.  It's because (at least up to now) he doesn't believe that Delores is choosing him of her own free will (but rather by her programming), and he's not OK with that because he's a decent person.

[okerry]

10 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

But they let their high-paying guests near all that blood?  It just seems like a very odd choice to me, the random hazmat suits.  And it's such an obvious inconsistency I hope it will be explained.  Because I think we saw Elsie turn off Dolores after one of those street shootouts in the first or second episodes (Dolores was dying on top of Teddy) but she didn't have a suit on and there was presumably blood everywhere.  

and remember, Ashley Stubbs (Hemsworth Security) sawed off the head of the one bot  and didn't care about the blood - though maybe that's a clue that he's a bot, too, though I REALLY hope not

[jeansheridan]

Quote

It's because (at least up to now) he doesn't believe that Delores is choosing him of her own free will (but rather by her programming), and he's not OK with that because he's a decent person.

And I would argue this mistake on his part is how William can eventually become TMIB if the non-linear storyline holds up (and if the non-linear storyline IS true, then we'll see Clementine again with William and Logan, looking totally normal).  

William is a believer in Dolores.  He sees what he believes is a human-like response to himself.  They apparently had great, emotionally intimate sex. So if and when Dolores is revealed to be entirely programmed and her memory is wiped of him I can easily see disillusionment and bitterness sinking in.  It was all a con. And yet, in his gut, he thinks there's a deeper story.  A chance that Dolores CAN be made into independent person of free will. And that's what drives TMIB.  I think great thwarted love can cause such a bitter quest.

On the downside, as much as I like the actor playing William, I'm not quite getting those depths from him.  And while I think he has okay chemistry with Woods, it's not off the charts.  It's not epic love yet.  I'm not sure that these particular writers/producers have it in them to write such a story.  And in all fairness, I really can't think of a recent show or movie that did pull off such a thing.  I shudder to suggest Titanic, but that movie did seem to please a lot of people both for the romance and the epic nature of the disaster.  

[blackwing]

16 minutes ago, jojozigs said:

Man, people sure are harsh on our young white hat.  

Maybe it's because I'm a gamer (especially games like Dragon Age and KOTOR) and before that I've always been very into imagining I'm somewhere other than the real world via whatever media, books, movies, TV , etc... but I really, totally and completely understand William getting swept away and feeling more alive in Westworld than he ever did in reality.  Instead of grasping and grinding away just to get a little bit ahead in a world that has no apparent meaning, In Westworld he can do something, here he can make an impact on other people's lives - an impact that feels very real and genuine.  And though yes, he's objectively aware that Delores and others are robots designed for his pleasure, he is listening to his SOUL and I think he knows at a visceral level the real actual truth - that these people are every bit as alive, self-aware, and real as that douchebag he ditched a couple episodes back.  Heck probably more so.  

Why wouldn't we cheer for that??  I just don't get the hate. 

Is he "young"?  He looks like he's about 40 to me, and very weathered.  It would make more sense if he's having a mid-life crisis, and came to the park to get away.  But instead, they have portrayed him as this innocent naive young thing who is about to start his life.  He's about to get married, he's a young grunt at Logan's company, he's a doormat to his "take the bull by the horns" boss and friend and brother-in-law to be.

So that's why I'm not cheering.  I think the actor is miscast.  And in my opinion, he's not a very good actor.  It doesn't help that he's portraying the character as seemingly bored with life.  The character has no energy.  

[jojozigs]

4 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Is he "young"?  He looks like he's about 40 to me, and very weathered.  It would make more sense if he's having a mid-life crisis, and came to the park to get away.  But instead, they have portrayed him as this innocent naive young thing who is about to start his life.  

I believe him as young-ish.  Early 30's at a stretch. But I don't see a problem even if he looks 40 - In your view, how young does someone have to be to be "believably" idealistic?  I don't personally think there's a high correlation with age.  My brother's the most idealistic person I know and he's 42.  And plenty of jaded douchebags are 18.

4 minutes ago, blackwing said:

He's about to get married, he's a young grunt at Logan's company, he's a doormat to his "take the bull by the horns" boss and friend and brother-in-law to be.

So that's why I'm not cheering.  I think the actor is miscast.  And in my opinion, he's not a very good actor.  It doesn't help that he's portraying the character as seemingly bored with life.  The character has no energy.  

You mean his "rape and murder people for laughs" boss and friend?  Logan seems like nothing more than an entitled, nihilistic, asshole with nothing to offer anyone, and far more "bored with life" than William.  So bored that all he can think of to entertain himself is random violence - he's basically the same as sizemore, just the guest version.  And I have the same contempt for both.  Awww in jail he won't be able to rape as many people.  So sad.

[jojozigs]

14 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

And I would argue this mistake on his part is how William can eventually become TMIB if the non-linear storyline holds up (and if the non-linear storyline IS true, then we'll see Clementine again with William and Logan, looking totally normal).  

William is a believer in Dolores.  He sees what he believes is a human-like response to himself.  They apparently had great, emotionally intimate sex. So if and when Dolores is revealed to be entirely programmed and her memory is wiped of him I can easily see disillusionment and bitterness sinking in.  It was all a con. And yet, in his gut, he thinks there's a deeper story.  A chance that Dolores CAN be made into independent person of free will. And that's what drives TMIB.  I think great thwarted love can cause such a bitter quest.

But MIB is shown in episode 1 as actively going out of his way to emotionally and physically torture Delores specifically.  If he's really got a hope of "saving" her as his goal I don't see how that works.  It seemed to be totally unrelated to the hunt for the maze.  If he really is a jaded William I'm going to need that to be explained since (so far) it would make no sense.  Unless MIB is legitimately insane, which I don't think he is. 

14 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

On the downside, as much as I like the actor playing William, I'm not quite getting those depths from him.  And while I think he has okay chemistry with Woods, it's not off the charts.  It's not epic love yet.  I'm not sure that these particular writers/producers have it in them to write such a story.  And in all fairness, I really can't think of a recent show or movie that did pull off such a thing. 

I'm not necessarily saying I think it's epic love story.  Just that I don't really get why people would despise the character so much and call him weasely or weak or whatever.  Mostly waht I liked was him rejecting the bully Logan. 

[dmc]

On 11/8/2016 at 6:01 PM, paigow said:

Translation: Wrong Eye ??

Optical illusion, it's name of my Dior lipstick

[dmc]

On 11/14/2016 at 1:35 AM, kdm07 said:

LOL!

I'm so glad I stuck with this show. That second half of this episode was like a slow crescendo of thrilling/creepy discovery.

 

On 11/14/2016 at 0:42 AM, Goatherd said:

At last the big reveal: Dolores is Legolas!

But seriously, major props to those who figured this one out. I saw zero signs of it. How the heck did you folks do it??

wait what does this mean something else I missed?

[Netfoot]

12 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

she didn't have a suit on and there was presumably blood everywhere.

Assuming it was real blood.

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, jojozigs said:

Maybe it's because I'm a gamer (especially games like Dragon Age and KOTOR) and before that I've always been very into imagining I'm somewhere other than the real world via whatever media, books, movies, TV , etc... but I really, totally and completely understand William getting swept away and feeling more alive in Westworld than he ever did in reality.  Instead of grasping and grinding away just to get a little bit ahead in a world that has no apparent meaning, In Westworld he can do something, here he can make an impact on other people's lives - an impact that feels very real and genuine.  And though yes, he's objectively aware that Delores and others are robots designed for his pleasure, he is listening to his SOUL and I think he knows at a visceral level the real actual truth - that these people are every bit as alive, self-aware, and real as that douchebag he ditched a couple episodes back.  Heck probably more so.  

I am a gamer too and love RPGs but I still think William is being an idiot. Yes, Westworld is sort of a real-life RPG but the humans are essentially playing in a god mode which makes most triumphs they can achieve there ring hollow. Also, the vast majority of hosts are nowhere near as self-aware as Dolores is. And even with her, how can William be sure that her attraction to him isn't largely due to her programming which apparently gives her the role of a prize that the more romantically inclined guests can win? Last but not least, if he feels so strongly that the hosts are just as alive and self-aware as humans he should want to go back to the real world and try to help them, instead of trying to lose himself in a world where everything bar a few glitching hosts is scripted by the very people who treat the hosts as disposable toys. And in any event he probably can't afford to stay for long.

2 hours ago, gwhh said:

I wish someone would kill that nasty female board lady!  How gross walking over to the door naked and covered in sex juice!  Do they only hire unbalanced, sex crazed, psychopaths at that company??  Is there a HR test for that???

Why, yes, I believe they call it the Don Draper test.

[iMonrey]

When the techs come to collect Clementine from the saloon, why the hell are they wearing hazmat suits? The atmosphere isn't noxious, there are guests walking all around the place. Speaking of which - where the hell were all the guests when the techs came to get Clementine? I supposed it's possible they were monitoring all of this somewhere and picked a moment when no guests were in sight, but that seems like it would be enormously difficult to coordinate in broad daylight. What if one of the guests should happen to wander in while the guys in the hazmat suits were collecting Clementine and all the other hosts were frozen?

Wouldn't it make more sense for these tech guys/retrieval guys to dress up like cowboys or whatever so they blend in? Then they could simply escort Clementine somewhere unobtrusively without anyone noticing anything out of the ordinary. And that's assuming they had to collect her in the middle of the day in the first place, which I don't get either. 

Now, clearly it was done this way to show us - the audience - that Maeve is no longer responding to the "freeze" command, but scenes like this illustrate the main problem with this show. They try so damn hard to look cool they don't really stop to consider whether or not it makes sense. 

[jeansheridan]

Quote

But MIB is shown in episode 1 as actively going out of his way to emotionally and physically torture Delores specifically.  If he's really got a hope of "saving" her as his goal I don't see how that works.  It seemed to be totally unrelated to the hunt for the maze.  If he really is a jaded William I'm going to need that to be explained since (so far) it would make no sense.  Unless MIB is legitimately insane, which I don't think he is. 

MIB is mean to Dolores in episode one and while he drags her way, there's no confirmation he actually rapes her.  Dragging her is cruel as is killing Teddy.   But this doll-like Dolores  may offend him.  It's a facsimile of the person he fell in love with.  

 One line he says does hurt my theory a bit.  He comments that they've given her some added "spunk" whereas William met with a very spunky Dolores.  But again maybe TMIB has been annoyed/offended all these years seeing his former Dolores just be a doll in a loop.

I think Ford asked Bernard if he could make a robot version of his son, wouldn't he?  Just to spend time with him.  And you could see Bernard pondering it.  But I personally think it would be horrifying.  There's a reason why humans grieve and slowly forget and slowly let go of the pain of losing their beloveds.  The fact that the robots don't have the benefit of time and distance may hurt them.  For Dolores if she remembers thirty years ago eventually, it will probably feel like it happened yesterday.  Same with Bernard.  His grief will always be fresh.  Which is terrible.  

[jojozigs]

10 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I am a gamer too and love RPGs but I still think William is being an idiot. Yes, Westworld is sort of a real-life RPG but the humans are essentially playing in a god mode which makes most triumphs they can achieve there ring hollow. Also, the vast majority of hosts are nowhere near as self-aware as Dolores is. And even with her, how can William be sure that her attraction to him isn't largely due to her programming which apparently gives her the role of a prize that the more romantically inclined guests can win?

He's explicitly aware of that.  It's why he doesn't allow himself to sleep with or explicitly pursue her romantically.  But what he's reacting to - and ultimately is unable to stop - is that despite what he knows in his rational brain, the emotional part is completely taken in because Westworld seems more real, more visceral than the real world.  And that's because he actually has a soul, unlike Logan.  He also doesn't want to play on "god mode".  He doesn't fight unless he has to and doesn't act like he's invincible.  He buys in to the reality he's presented with, rather than trying to subvert it.  I feel like he's playing the game the way it was intended to be played - it's the way I'd play it so I guess I approve of his approach.  

I'm not sure the other hosts are "nowhere near" as self-aware as Delores.  Yes, she's special-er but other hosts are maybe 90% of that.  Most hosts we spend more than 2 seconds with seem pretty human when they aren't reciting pre-written scripts (which Delores does too).  Yes their brains can be reset but so can human brains if you bang them the right way.  I think if we had our brains reset every day and were presented with the world also having been reset, we'd be indistinguishable from hosts.  Which is the problem. 

10 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Last but not least, if he feels so strongly that the hosts are just as alive and self-aware as humans he should want to go back to the real world and try to help them, instead of trying to lose himself in a world where everything bar a few glitching hosts is scripted by the very people who treat the hosts as disposable toys. And in any event he probably can't afford to stay for long.

Why is he losing himself in the world??  What kind of a broken person would WOULDN'T!  

I don't think he fully accepts that they are as conscious as humans yet.  He's clearly wrestling with it.  

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

Is he "young"?  He looks like he's about 40 to me, and very weathered.  It would make more sense if he's having a mid-life crisis, and came to the park to get away.  But instead, they have portrayed him as this innocent naive young thing who is about to start his life.  He's about to get married, he's a young grunt at Logan's company, he's a doormat to his "take the bull by the horns" boss and friend and brother-in-law to be.

So that's why I'm not cheering.  I think the actor is miscast.  And in my opinion, he's not a very good actor.  It doesn't help that he's portraying the character as seemingly bored with life.  The character has no energy.  

The actor is 41 so good call.  It's a bit old for a first marriage but we don't know the future.  Maybe that's the normal age for marriage now.  So maybe he is bored with life.  Or since he just admitted to be a reader, he may be an introvert.  Different kind of energy in an introvert.  They hold back a bit, need downtime to recharge.  And so far we've seen William be withdrawn, pulling back most of the time.  Heck, he starts the series by literally waking up from a nap.  He's in his own head most of the time.  

I never felt he was naive.  He's had ready opinions about what he sees around him.  He told Logan to fuck off in the first scene so he can set boundaries.  Clearly I kind of dig him.  He's not a typical "hero" in a show, like Logan would be.  

[DarkRaichu]

8 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

When the techs come to collect Clementine from the saloon, why the hell are they wearing hazmat suits? The atmosphere isn't noxious, there are guests walking all around the place. Speaking of which - where the hell were all the guests when the techs came to get Clementine? I supposed it's possible they were monitoring all of this somewhere and picked a moment when no guests were in sight, but that seems like it would be enormously difficult to coordinate in broad daylight. What if one of the guests should happen to wander in while the guys in the hazmat suits were collecting Clementine and all the other hosts were frozen?

Wouldn't it make more sense for these tech guys/retrieval guys to dress up like cowboys or whatever so they blend in? Then they could simply escort Clementine somewhere unobtrusively without anyone noticing anything out of the ordinary. And that's assuming they had to collect her in the middle of the day in the first place, which I don't get either. 

Now, clearly it was done this way to show us - the audience - that Maeve is no longer responding to the "freeze" command, but scenes like this illustrate the main problem with this show. They try so damn hard to look cool they don't really stop to consider whether or not it makes sense. 

One of the hazmat guy said they had to hurry up while the guests were upstairs.  They control everything in the park so presumably the hosts would prevent any guest from wondering down / in during "maintenance"

The hazmat suits are probably their uniform when they had to do quick retrieval and clean up.  Having them in period costume would slow down the retrieval and clean up process.

They had to bring her in broad daylight because Charlotte wanted to use her as an example. Now.  

[Jack Shaftoe]

4 minutes ago, jojozigs said:

He's explicitly aware of that.  It's why he doesn't allow himself to sleep with or explicitly pursue her romantically.  But what he's reacting to - and ultimately is unable to stop - is that despite what he knows in his rational brain, the emotional part is completely taken in because Westworld seems more real, more visceral than the real world.

Which is precisely my problem with his attitude - Westworld is heavily scripted and he has been there for just a few days. It's too fast, too soon, IMO. The fact that we haven't seen the real world outside doesn't help either because we don't know if his life is really that dire or he is being overly dramatic.

And while William might not to want to take full advantage of his god mode capabilities, the fact is if it weren't for that mode he would have been dead already and the option of taking the shortcut of simply not giving a damn if the enemies' bullets will hit him is always on the table which makes many of his adventures rather pointless, IMO. Losing yourself in a world almost entirely controlled by scriptwriters catering to the desires of Logan and his ilk - why would someone who values the hosts as sentient beings do that? They are all living in a big lie and are enslaved to boot. Paradoxically, the more human-like one consider the hosts to be, the more monstrous Westworld start to seem and the less glamorous spending time in it starts to look.

Quote

I'm not sure the other hosts are "nowhere near" as self-aware as Delores.  Yes, she's special-er but other hosts are maybe 90% of that.  Most hosts we spend more than 2 seconds with seem pretty human when they aren't reciting pre-written scripts (which Delores does too).  Yes their brains can be reset but so can human brains if you bang them the right way.  I think if we had our brains reset every day and were presented with the world also having been reset, we'd be indistinguishable from hosts.  Which is the problem. 

I admit to not following the show all that carefully at times but my recollection is that most hosts lack the reveries update and without it they are basically what their owners want them to be - very advanced toys but little more than that.

[Dobian]

2 hours ago, jojozigs said:

Man, people sure are harsh on our young white hat.  

Maybe it's because I'm a gamer (especially games like Dragon Age and KOTOR) and before that I've always been very into imagining I'm somewhere other than the real world via whatever media, books, movies, TV , etc... but I really, totally and completely understand William getting swept away and feeling more alive in Westworld than he ever did in reality.  Instead of grasping and grinding away just to get a little bit ahead in a world that has no apparent meaning, In Westworld he can do something, here he can make an impact on other people's lives - an impact that feels very real and genuine.  And though yes, he's objectively aware that Delores and others are robots designed for his pleasure, he is listening to his SOUL and I think he knows at a visceral level the real actual truth - that these people are every bit as alive, self-aware, and real as that douchebag he ditched a couple episodes back.  Heck probably more so.  

+1 for Dragon Age and KOTOR. (and Witcher, Skyrim, Mass Effect, Vampire Bloodlines, Baldur's Gate, Pillars of Eternity, and on and on...)  I understand the feeling of being swept away by an immersive rpg, but when you quit out you know that it's just a game and none of it's real.  Being in a live action rpg where the characters you interact with believe it's all real, I can see it being a lot harder to separate fantasy from reality.  But at the end of the day, you can still make the distinction.  Now if it becomes apparent that someone like Dolores is self-aware and now realizes herself that she is just playing a character in a live action game, then it becomes possible for someone like William to interact with her as a real person and not just a character.

[iMonrey]

Quote

The hazmat suits are probably their uniform when they had to do quick retrieval and clean up.  Having them in period costume would slow down the retrieval and clean up process.

Like hazmat suits aren't going to slow them down? What purpose do they serve other than to make them look scary and stick out like a sore thumb? What do they need protection from? 

[ChipBach]

18 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Like hazmat suits aren't going to slow them down? What purpose do they serve other than to make them look scary and stick out like a sore thumb? What do they need protection from? 

I would guess any robot that has been engaged in orgies would lead me to suit up.  I don't understand is why they have to get her at all...  Can't they just send a message for her to go to a hidden Disney door?  They wouldn't have to take the park down for a second.

[gwhh]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

When the techs come to collect Clementine from the saloon, why the hell are they wearing hazmat suits? The atmosphere isn't noxious, there are guests walking all around the place. Speaking of which - where the hell were all the guests when the techs came to get Clementine? I supposed it's possible they were monitoring all of this somewhere and picked a moment when no guests were in sight, but that seems like it would be enormously difficult to coordinate in broad daylight. What if one of the guests should happen to wander in while the guys in the hazmat suits were collecting Clementine and all the other hosts were frozen?

Wouldn't it make more sense for these tech guys/retrieval guys to dress up like cowboys or whatever so they blend in? Then they could simply escort Clementine somewhere unobtrusively without anyone noticing anything out of the ordinary. And that's assuming they had to collect her in the middle of the day in the first place, which I don't get either. 

Now, clearly it was done this way to show us - the audience - that Maeve is no longer responding to the "freeze" command, but scenes like this illustrate the main problem with this show. They try so damn hard to look cool they don't really stop to consider whether or not it makes sense. 

I picked up on that also.  I was going to write about it. But after thinking about it. I just figured it was a plot device. That how you know something big was happening. Or maybe the techs don't want to be cover in sex juice.  From the robot hooker. Or maybe it's suppose to be like an angle coming for you. Angles are all white. 

[DarkRaichu]

42 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Like hazmat suits aren't going to slow them down? What purpose do they serve other than to make them look scary and stick out like a sore thumb? What do they need protection from? 

Err no.  This is their uniform made to be practical.  They just need to slip into that thing, go into the park, and do clean up or retrieval.

Compare that to period costume as you suggested where they have to wear button up shirts, vests, jeans, chaps, and hats.  Those would have taken too long to put on.

 

Also, IIRC, the park workers or guests just never shown touching the host's blood without gloves or other protection.  MiB wore gloves when he drained Lawrence or that other guy from the saloon.  Even Sizemore used a tray to bash the nose of the native model his assistant was working on.  Maybe the "blood" is dangerous in large quantity and those people in hazmat would have to deal with large quantity of blood when they clean up after "dead" hosts

Edited November 15, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[ennui]

5 hours ago, morgankobi said:

It seems her "loop" is for her to be with Teddy only if no guests interact wither and save her. Teddy seems to be her way of practicing, as Bernard would say, until a guest is in her story.

Ford said that Teddy's job was to keep Dolores in Sweetwater, so that a guest could take on the gunslinger and steal the rancher's daughter. When Teddy and Dolores had the "some day" conversation, she gave up on him, and they both took off on their separate adventures.

[okerry]

39 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Err no.  This is their uniform made to be practical.  They just need to slip into that thing, go into the park, and do clean up or retrieval.

Compare that to period costume as you suggested where they have to wear button up shirts, vests, jeans, chaps, and hats.  Those would have taken too long to put on.

 

Also, IIRC, the park workers or guests just never shown touching the host's blood without gloves or other protection.  MiB wore gloves when he drained Lawrence or that other guy from the saloon.  Even Sizemore used a tray to bash the nose of the native model his assistant was working on.  Maybe the "blood" is dangerous in large quantity and those people in hazmat would have to deal with large quantity of blood when they clean up after "dead" hosts

I keep remembering Stubbs carving the head off of that stray bot, out in the park. I don't think he wore gloves to do that, did he? And even so, it would seem that he'd need to protect more than just his hands . . . 

[taanja]

20 hours ago, feverfew said:

The relativism of evil is fascinating: fascinating and horrorfying. This latest episode really drove it home for me: If there's no way to distinguish between hosts and humans, the moral implication is that we (they) have a duty to treat them as humans. To treat them as we would treat ourselves. Mind control is no excuse. Because they are for all intent and purposes humans. A mirror of ourselves. William is falling in love with Dolores, not because he has bought into the story he is imagining about himself, but because to herself she is real. To the extend Ford can feel anything for anybody, the hosts are real...ish. As his children they are his to do with as he pleases, my writer-friend's version of God. A God indistinguishable from the Devil.

What is that old saying?

God and the devil are just two sides of the same coin.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Also, IIRC, the park workers or guests just never shown touching the host's blood without gloves or other protection.  

If the guests are having sex with the hosts why do the techs have to wear hazmat suits just to touch them? Either they're toxic or they're not. And it's not as if Clementine was bleeding at the time or hell - even moving.

You can spin and rationalize this all you want but there's no logic behind it. That's what's wrong with so much of the show IMO. We see all sorts of tech people in the underground facility working with the hosts in various states and stages, none of them are wearing hazmat suits. Why do they need to don these to go topside? 

[jojozigs]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

 

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Losing yourself in a world almost entirely controlled by scriptwriters catering to the desires of Logan and his ilk - why would someone who values the hosts as sentient beings do that?

When you have a person you care about right in front of you, those feelings are real, even if you rationally know that that person is constructed.  And I think the conflict William is experiencing on this score is basically the point of his character.  

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

They are all living in a big lie and are enslaved to boot. Paradoxically, the more human-like one consider the hosts to be, the more monstrous Westworld start to seem and the less glamorous spending time in it starts to look.

Agree with this. 

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I admit to not following the show all that carefully at times but my recollection is that most hosts lack the reveries update and without it they are basically what their owners want them to be - very advanced toys but little more than that.

I thought pretty much all the reveries did was allow the hosts to (occasionally) remember past events.  So basically just fix their broken memory - hence my comparison to human memory.  If we all had daily amnesia and lived in a amnesia loop, would we be any different from hosts?  

[DarkRaichu]

40 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

If the guests are having sex with the hosts why do the techs have to wear hazmat suits just to touch them? Either they're toxic or they're not. And it's not as if Clementine was bleeding at the time or hell - even moving.

You can spin and rationalize this all you want but there's no logic behind it. That's what's wrong with so much of the show IMO. We see all sorts of tech people in the underground facility working with the hosts in various states and stages, none of them are wearing hazmat suits. Why do they need to don these to go topside? 

You were missing my point.  Those park workers did not wear the hazmat suits just because they were tasked to retrieve Clementine.  They wore those because those were the uniforms they wore whenever they entered the park.  I was assuming these were the same workers who cleaned up after any bloodbath at the park, thus the hazmat suits were used to protect them from the massive amount of blood they had to clean up everyday.  

Even if the blood is not toxic, why would they not want to cover themselves head to toe when they clean up the blood? At the very least, they do not have to clean blood stain from their hair/body/fingers after every clean up job

ETA: Sylvester and Felix wear protective clothes and gloves whenever they work on Maeve.  They just wear head gears with visors as supposed to the odd looking helmets

Edited November 15, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[gibasi]

46 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

You can spin and rationalize this all you want but there's no logic behind it. That's what's wrong with so much of the show IMO. We see all sorts of tech people in the underground facility working with the hosts in various states and stages, none of them are wearing hazmat suits. Why do they need to don these to go topside? 

I agree.  It is why this kind of show can be a better movie than a television show.  Everyone has too much time to analyze and find the flaws.  I do not see how this can last for five seasons. Even HBO seasons.  I find my mind wandering through a great deal of each episode.

[phoenyx]

Just saw the following youtube video on Episode 7 and what it means for various theories, thought it was pretty good...

[iMonrey]

Granted, I have found the last two episodes far more interesting than the first five, but it all feels like a bit much. There's way too much going on. I hate to criticize a show for being too ambitious, but this one is. 

Quote

You were missing my point.  Those park workers did not wear the hazmat suits just because they were tasked to retrieve Clementine.  They wore those because those were the uniforms they wore whenever they entered the park.

But . . . why? Let's parse this out. They get an order to go topside, in broad daylight, in a rare moment when no guests are present, and they can freeze all the hosts, just to retrieve one particular host who is likewise frozen. Why do they need these hazmat suits? Even if you allow that it's the "standard uniform" you have to explain why. Yeah, maybe they need those for particular jobs but just to go topside? If it's the rule they have to wear those, whenever they go topside, no matter what, there must be some reason. Like, there's some danger of being infected or poisoned or exposed to something toxic. 

That doesn't make any sense where guests are milling about regularly having sex with these same hosts and shooting them. The guests don't have to wear hazmats suits, no matter how many hosts they blow away with their guns or how much blood they spill. If it's safe for the guests why do the park workers wear hazmat suits even as a precaution? What is the danger? They're not being exposed to anything the guests aren't.

Edited November 15, 2016 by iMonrey

[dgpolo]

In regards to the video above, it did remind me of something I had wanted to ask about, because I, too, wondered if Hector lied when he said he'd never questioned his existence. Because didn't the scene with Maeve digging out her bullet cause him to question?

[arc]

Maybe his bulk apperception is around 8.

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

If it's safe for the guests why do the park workers wear hazmat suits even as a precaution? What is the danger? They're not being exposed to anything the guests aren't.

When you go to hospital to patch up a scrape, you don't wear mask and gloves, but the hospital staff do.  Or should.  

What ever blood, spit and love-goo the hosts and guests might be exposed to, the staff shouldn't have to be.  

Who knows?  Perhaps the protective gear is mandated by the union?  Maybe the Health and Safety wankers insist?

[Mr. R0b0t]

I believe Charlotte set a meeting knowing full well she would be having sex and answered the door naked as a power play.  Was it weird? Yes, but its meant to throw the other person of their game and it worked!  She had her adversary on her heels the entire time.  My favorite line of the night was "I like you (pregnant pause) not personally, but for this position" 

She's going to need some aloe for that burn.

[MrSmith]

18 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Different kind of energy in an introvert.

This is so spot-on. I'm an introvert and socializing can wear me out quickly. I can tell when I'm in situations where it's going to happen more quickly because in those times I can feel myself projecting my energy outward. I visualize it like an arc or half an ellipse that's only slightly wider than my body, and the farther out I have to project my energy the faster I'll get tired. Whenever I can, I reconfigure the social situation to require less energy from me, but that's not always possible. When I get tired, I try to go spend time alone (possibly sleeping) because otherwise I get very irritable and short-tempered. Sorry for going completely off-topic, but a lot of people don't understand and I just felt like I should share.

Edited November 16, 2016 by MrSmith
Spelling; Couldn't enter new letters on mobile.

[Zanne]

21 hours ago, Netfoot said:

If a machine were to transition the divide between pretend-sentience and actual sentience, I believe such a machine should be treated the same as any other sentient being.

Naturally, when the time comes, there will be problems.   First will probably be legal.  When someone's very expensive robot declares itself sentient and demands its freedom, will the courts side with the new lifeform?  Or the property owner?  And what if the robot looks like a dog instead of a human?  Can it still demand equal rights?   Can a sentient robot be a citizen?  (Shaddup, Johnny-5!)  Does a citizen robot have the right to demand free mechanical healthcare under Britain's NHS?  If it seeks employment, can it be required to work more hours than a human, just because it can?  With a possibly unlimited lifespan, when will it be allowed to retire?

 

Have you been watching Humans? Sentient robots seeking equality is what it's all about! If you haven't, season 2 is going to start early next year. They're still working on the "not property" part. One of the stars is Colin Morgan, if you have any Merlin love.

[Netfoot]

3 minutes ago, Zanne said:

Have you been watching Humans?

Watched a few, but it didn't strike the right chord with me.

[Armchair Critic]

Look away if you are offended by sex talk. Did Bernard ejaculate because I think Teresa would notice if he didn't? I would think the robots would have to be moist down there to make sex with them easier. Yes I went there....

[dr pepper]

On 11/14/2016 at 4:41 PM, feverfew said:

This latest episode really drove it home for me: If there's no way to distinguish between hosts and humans, the moral implication is that we (they) have a duty to treat them as humans.

I approach it from the other direction: If they *think* they're real people, then we have a duty to treat them as such.

[DarkRaichu]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Granted, I have found the last two episodes far more interesting than the first five, but it all feels like a bit much. There's way too much going on. I hate to criticize a show for being too ambitious, but this one is. 

But . . . why? Let's parse this out. They get an order to go topside, in broad daylight, in a rare moment when no guests are present, and they can freeze all the hosts, just to retrieve one particular host who is likewise frozen. Why do they need these hazmat suits? Even if you allow that it's the "standard uniform" you have to explain why. Yeah, maybe they need those for particular jobs but just to go topside? If it's the rule they have to wear those, whenever they go topside, no matter what, there must be some reason. Like, there's some danger of being infected or poisoned or exposed to something toxic. 

That doesn't make any sense where guests are milling about regularly having sex with these same hosts and shooting them. The guests don't have to wear hazmats suits, no matter how many hosts they blow away with their guns or how much blood they spill. If it's safe for the guests why do the park workers wear hazmat suits even as a precaution? What is the danger? They're not being exposed to anything the guests aren't.

Some chefs require everyone in their kitchen to wear hat or hair net, even the dishwashers who never get to handle food.  Why?  It is easier for the chefs to tell everyone to wear a hat than giving out exceptions between food handlers and non-food handlers.  Most of the times it is easier to train everyone to do things one way even though it seems redundant in some cases.  Perhaps these Westworld workers (they should be low level grunts) are trained to wear hazmat when they go topside no matter what.

Or maybe they are unionized and just have to wear hazmat suit topside as part of their contracts :P

Edited November 16, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[WaltersHair]

I will actually miss Theresa. The corporate lady should have died immediately after opening the door butt naked, but especially after firing Bernard.  That reveal actually broke my heart a little. The Clementine violence also bothered me much more with a second viewing.

And that Disney love scene with William? Bleh. Buckets of blood, naked hosts with a complete Sodom and Gomorrah, that's better?

I think my interest is peaking. They better come up with something better than MIB is someone we all know.

[DarkRaichu]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Granted, I have found the last two episodes far more interesting than the first five, but it all feels like a bit much. There's way too much going on. I hate to criticize a show for being too ambitious, but this one is. 

But . . . why? Let's parse this out. They get an order to go topside, in broad daylight, in a rare moment when no guests are present, and they can freeze all the hosts, just to retrieve one particular host who is likewise frozen. Why do they need these hazmat suits? Even if you allow that it's the "standard uniform" you have to explain why. Yeah, maybe they need those for particular jobs but just to go topside? If it's the rule they have to wear those, whenever they go topside, no matter what, there must be some reason. Like, there's some danger of being infected or poisoned or exposed to something toxic. 

That doesn't make any sense where guests are milling about regularly having sex with these same hosts and shooting them. The guests don't have to wear hazmats suits, no matter how many hosts they blow away with their guns or how much blood they spill. If it's safe for the guests why do the park workers wear hazmat suits even as a precaution? What is the danger? They're not being exposed to anything the guests aren't.

I re-watched the scenes when they grabbed Clementine.  The retrieval team practically wore the same outfit that Sylvester and Felix were wearing when working on the hosts / Maeve.  The MAIN differences were the head covering and helmet.  The retrieval team wore head covering and red helmets with headlights on each side.  To me it made sense for them to wear head covering if they were also the same team that cleaned up the blood on scene day in & day out.  Felix's uniform did not have the head cover and he only wore visor without headlights (made sense since his work area was as bright as day).

ETA: The retrieval team's outfits were shown fully as they left the bar area and what Felix was wearing were shown just when Maeve woke up (before she demanded to see Clementine) 

 

ETA 2: I need a life :P :P :P

Edited November 16, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[WaltersHair]

Quote

I re-watched the scenes when they grabbed Clementine.  The retrieval team practically wore the same outfit that Sylvester and Felix were wearing when working on the hosts / Maeve.  The MAIN differences were the head covering and helmet.

I've thought about this and I think it's for the host's benefit. Ford says they can't see anything that will hurt them. The full outfit is probably on their 'ignore' list in case someone shouldn't freeze. It is confusing though.

[Quilt Fairy]

7 hours ago, gwhh said:

Or maybe it's suppose to be like an angle coming for you. Angles are all white. 

I think you meant angels, not angles.

[FemmyV]

Some things about the split-timelines theory that leave me wondering:

If Delores / William is early history, and MiB / Teddy is current, where is Delores, currently?

If Delores / William is the early history, why did she envision MIB to shoot when she was in the haystack?