S03.E09: Mad City: The Executioner

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Gordon and Bullock become suspicious of Barnes, and comb through evidence of the murder at Lee and Mario’s engagement party. Nygma goes to Penguin when he hasn’t heard from Isabella. Meanwhile, Ivy reveals her identity to Selina and Bruce, but quickly leads them to trouble.

 

[Chaos Theory]

So endeth the Barnes.

That was fun though watching Barnes completely self destruct.  I am going to miss him.  He was fun as a nutso vigilante killer.   I thought his scenes with Gordon were pretty well done.   I really did like the last scene with Barnes in Arkham.  GUILTY.  I hope he escapes at least once.

Grown up Ivy is all sorts of fun especially since she is being written as someone whose body has been grown but who still has the mind of a child.  Instant gratification.   Bedroom, nah.   Vault yes.   

I have gotten tired of the Nygma/Penguin stuff.  It had the potential to be an interesting storyline but honestly it just seems kinda sad now.  Penguin in love with Nygma who is chasing is dead murdered girlfriend who was killed by Penguin.  Boring.   

I want more crazy Barnes.

[Danielg342]

I'm calling Edward blaming Butch as the ultimate fakeout to give the Penguin a false sense of security. After all, Ed knows he can't exact his revenge on Oswald if Oswald suspects he's on to him. It's also something that the Riddler would totally do.

Can't say I'm too pleased with Chelsea Spack deciding to come back only for her character to be killed again. Maybe she lives in a fridge?

Aged-up Ivy isn't doing anything for me. She's got zero chemistry with Cat and Bruce and her stupidity is wearing thin. Correct me if I'm wrong but the original Ivy wasn't this dumb, was she?

Of course, the star of this episode was Barnes, and Michael Chiklis largely delivered on a script that left quite a bit to be desired. "The Executioner" isn't really a novel idea on the concept, but Chiklis sold the deranged, egotistical character to great ability. Barnes said that the virus "made him free"- well, it looks like The Executioner really allowed Chiklis to be free, and it showed.

I'm also glad that Lee actually had a chance to affect the plot tonight. Too often she's the one the story comes to, but this time she made a decision that drove it. It's not much for her character, but at least it's a start.

The Bullock Meter- 5

Harvey was there...he did quite a bit at the beginning and was key in convincing Lee to fabricate a blood test to ensure that Jim wasn't thrown in the clink. Still, he was absent for the middle part of the episode, and didn't get too much beyond the rudimentary bulldog barking at others Bullock seems only designed to do. The good news is, at least Bullock is getting a bit more screen time this season.

Episode Grade: B. Solid, if somewhat uninspired.

[Spartan Girl]

Ivy has more boobs than brains. Even the Uma Thurman Poison Ivy was smarter.

[Danielg342]

2 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Even the Uma Thurman Poison Ivy was smarter.

...and more talented.

[Chaos Theory]

In Ivy's defense I think the show is playing it as her body being aged but she is still acting like a kid would.  Hey look stupid boys give me money when I smile.    It will be interesting to see how she learned as she goes.  

[Danielg342]

16 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

In Ivy's defense I think the show is playing it as her body being aged but she is still acting like a kid would.  Hey look stupid boys give me money when I smile.    It will be interesting to see how she learned as she goes.  

Which, frankly, is the show admitting it's sexualizing a 15-year-old girl.

When the show, I believe, said they wouldn't do that- her maturity was supposed to rise too.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Danielg342

[opus]

I enjoyed the Ivy, Cat, Bruce combination.

[immortalfrieza]

When I end up agreeing with the psychotic vigilante villain more than I do the utterly ineffectual hero is when a setting has crossed the line into total darkness beyond any redemption. Barnes may be crazy but he was right, the law has been completely unable to do anything about the crime wave affecting this city and killing them is the only remotely sensible thing that could be done to fix Gotham, but of course like every comic book story when this kind of thing is brought up the "hero" is somehow justified in stopping them because it's "not the law" or whatever. I wish Barnes didn't go off and try to kill Gordon too, at least then he could have been seen as someone just doing what needed to be done, instead of a psycho trying to kill an innocent man just for getting in his way.

Why am I not surprised that Arkham is still open and that Barnes was sent there despite the fact that it has proven to both be hopelessly corrupt and totally unable to actually rehabilitate patients? Oh, right, because that place stays open no matter what since if it didn't we wouldn't have a place for the Joker to escape from every other day a few years down the line.

Ivy always was bizarre and spacey, but she showed at least a microscopic amount of sense and street smarts. This new Ivy is as dumb as a sack of bricks and has the survival skills of a lemming. At least the writers have toned down her out of nowhere obsession with plants this episode.

[SimoneS]

I cannot believe that the show wrapped up Barnes' story so quickly. Did Michael Chiklis want to leave? They could have keep the cat and mouse game going between Jim and Barnes for the whole season. It would have been entertaining as hell because they are both good actors. I will miss Barnes.

Bruce, Selena, and Ivy are good together. I have always liked the young actors playing Bruce and Selena and they are developing into stronger actors as the seasons progress.  I am looking forward to them becoming involved in this Owl story. I hope we see more of Alfred.

9 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I'm calling Edward blaming Butch as the ultimate fakeout to give the Penguin a false sense of security. After all, Ed knows he can't exact his revenge on Oswald if Oswald suspects he's on to him. It's also something that the Riddler would totally do. 

This was my thought when Ed blurted out that Butch killed Isabella. 

[Dame sans merci]

Not really a fan of this one.

The writing for the Barnes storyline was very by-the-numbers and predictable, new Ivy seems so dense it's a surprise she's survived this long and developments in the Nygma/Oswald/Isabella plot made me roll my eyes so hard I think I may have strained something. Something that seemed like it may initially be going somewhere brave and unexpected has now given us :

a) a female character being created solely to function as a plot device

b) who is then fridged to create manpain and drama

c) with an added side dish of 'villainous gay'.

Damn it show.

And the GCPD seems to only have one M.E. Wouldn't Lee have recognised that Isabella had the same face as her dead friend?

However, props for:

• the Ivy/Selina hug. Awww.
• 'You do look nice'. Oh Bruce.
• 'I was only gone for an hour'.
• Oswald basically creating his own fan art with that painting.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Blackcanary

[SimoneS]

15 minutes ago, Blackcanary said:

Nygma/Oswald/Isabella plot made me roll my eyes so hard I think I may have strained something. Something that seemed like it may initially be going somewhere brave and unexpected has now given us :

a) a female character being created solely to function as a plot device

b) who is then fridged to create manpain and drama

c) with an added side dish of 'villainous gay'.

Damn it show.

I noticed how Isabella was used a plot device. The show treats its female characters like shit. One of the reasons that I stopped watching last season. I am back, but am not thrilled that the misogyny is still front and center.

[darkestboy]

Is that it for Barnes? I kind of wished the show had done one better and killed him off. He's one of those characters the show can afford to lose.

The scenes with him and Gordon just felt strained and predictable and Arkham is ineffective as well. 

I did like Ivy's return but she's not really that bright though. She played off Selina and Bruce pretty well though and I like that she's using plants for her own purposes too.

Edward figured out Isabella was murdered quickly but he'll soon realise that Butch didn't kill her. Oswald should watch himself.

The painting was interesting, 7/10

[Sakura12]

Why is Ivy suddenly stupid, she didn't seem that stupid the other times we saw her. They should've just gone with a new character, if they wanted a connection they could've just said she's Ivy's cousin Pamela. The 11 year old in a 20 year old body is just gross. 

Then they had to fridge Riddler's girlfriend again, why? For what purpose? 

Barnes story was rushed, but expected. It was well acted though. And I just loved them having Jim take the high road when he spent 2 1/2 seasons acting almost exactly the same way. Now all of sudden he wants to follow the law. I guess only he can break it when he feels like it. Sorry Gotham writers. I'll never buy this version of Jim Gordon as the hero of this story. You destroyed him too much. 

[Dame sans merci]

22 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I noticed how Isabella was used a plot device. The show treats its female characters like shit. One of the reasons that I stopped watching last season. I am back, but am not thrilled that the misogyny is still front and center.

Yeah, I think that's probably my main issue with the show. Selina seems to have thus far been spared from the worst treatment, but all of the others? Yikes. Nu Ivy is probably the most egregious example because that's just gross, Gotham, so gross, but it is a general trend.

I know they can do compelling, entertaining arcs. I've seen them do it for the men. They need to do better by their females.

Even my boyfriend turned to me, after seeing Isabella's body, and said, in a bewildered tone "so...they created her as a literal cockblock and then just killed her? Why would they think that's okay?'

[Danielg342]

21 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Sorry Gotham writers. I'll never buy this version of Jim Gordon as the hero of this story. You destroyed him too much. 

One of the reasons why Bullock should be the central character. You get the sense that, despite the fact he "does what he has to do", he regrets needing to do it. That kind of conflict is precisely the one that Gotham should be milking.

[Jediknight]

2 hours ago, Blackcanary said:

However, props for:

• 'You do look nice'. Oh Bruce.

And Selina's reaction.  Great facial expression on her part.  Ivy, Bruce, and Selina were really a fun grouping.

[Shenanigan]

I just hope Barnes being in Arkham means Harvey gets to be interim chief again. His press conferences were gold.

[Winter Rose]

Aww too bad we're done with this Barnes already. I'm sure he'll be back later of course but this is the most fun he's ever been. My favorite scene was the car ride with Jim and they were verbally toying with each other.

Well at least Chelsea Spack would've had any easy payday. I'm so disappointed Isabella's dead for real, I'd hoped she'd either miraculously survived or that it meant something that she was a doppleganger at the same time as when there was a character doing face transplants. I'm glad Ed quickly figured out her brake lines had been cut but while I'm glad we'll see Butch again, I hope it doesn't take him too long to figure out it was really Penguin. I'm ready for that storyline to be over, I'm not even moved by Ed being included in the portrait.

If nothing else with Bruce/Selina/Ivy, I'm interested to see what plays out with the Court of Owls.

[Timetoread]

17 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

In Ivy's defense I think the show is playing it as her body being aged but she is still acting like a kid would.  Hey look stupid boys give me money when I smile.    It will be interesting to see how she learned as she goes.  

 

6 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Why is Ivy suddenly stupid, she didn't seem that stupid the other times we saw her. They should've just gone with a new character, if they wanted a connection they could've just said she's Ivy's cousin Pamela. The 11 year old in a 20 year old body is just gross. 

Then they had to fridge Riddler's girlfriend again, why? For what purpose? 

Barnes story was rushed, but expected. It was well acted though. And I just loved them having Jim take the high road when he spent 2 1/2 seasons acting almost exactly the same way. Now all of sudden he wants to follow the law. I guess only he can break it when he feels like it. Sorry Gotham writers. I'll never buy this version of Jim Gordon as the hero of this story. You destroyed him too much. 

I thought the original Ivy was pretty stupid, how she basically goaded Fish into killing her.  That said, I found her believable.  She didn't grow into her power over men.  And frankly it said a lot about the men who, talking to a woman with the mentality of a tween they still a) wanted to have sex with her and b) would give her expensive gifts.  That she figured out this con that fast speaks a lot for her intellect.  And the way she acted around Selina is about right how people act with their childhood friends.  Even now in my *cough* maturity, my friend and I (friends since high school) can act pretty immature when with each other, but in real life we are both professionals.

[Kathemy]

Ivy lost all brains in the exact episode she was aged up. Her threatening Fish was embarrassingly stupid by the show.

The problem is that Selina and Bruce are brilliant, but Maggie Geha plain can't act. I don't like saying it and she seems like a nice girl. Her scripts are really awkward too.

It's a weird thing watching a show you love when part of it has jumped the shark.

Oh, and Isabella will be back. I'm counting on it.

[frogzapper]

8 hours ago, Blackcanary said:

• 'You do look nice'. Oh Bruce.

5 hours ago, Jediknight said:

And Selina's reaction.  Great facial expression on her part.  Ivy, Bruce, and Selina were really a fun grouping.

I also loved the exchange that followed when it dawned on Ivy that Bruce and Selina were a thing. I thought Bruce's and Selina's reactions and comedic timing were perfect!

Edited November 15, 2016 by frogzapper

[blackwing]

Surprised that the Barnes storyline wrapped up so quickly.  I was expecting him to go completely insane and go to live in the sewers and give the GCPD the slip for much of the second half of the season.  The awful Mad Hatter got to stick around for way too many episodes, yet the minute Barnes is discovered, he's captured in the very next episode?  Booooooo.

I agree that Oswald's obsession over Nygma is just plain boring.  Disappointed that Isabella is actually dead.  Even more disappointed that we didn't see another Kringle Klone stepping out of a freezer at the end of the episode.  Makes zero sense to bring back the actress only to kill her off so quickly again.

Have TPTB given an overall preview of this season?  Since the season's subtitle is "Mad City" I thought that meant we were going to get one insane Big Bad for the season.  Instead, we've had a sequence of villains come and go.  Fish, Mad Hatter, Barnes.  Who's next?  Is there going to be a new baddie?  Maybe the return of Joker?  Or maybe Oswald fully devolves into Penguin mode or Nygma goes insane and becomes Riddler?  Is Fish Mooney coming back?  Again, odd that they would bring back Jada Pinkett Smith only for a few episodes and then she's gone again.

[paigow]

35 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

Oh, and Isabella will be back. I'm counting on it.

Indian Hill is deactivated, Strange is on the run...Who else can raise the dead??

The crossbow guys cannot be the Court of Owls...For people that "oversee" everything in Gotham, leaving that douchebag in charge of the "key" does not indicate omnipotence....

[Kathemy]

1 minute ago, paigow said:

Indian Hill is deactivated, Strange is on the run...Who else can raise the dead??

I'm not even sure Isabella is dead. We don't know who she was in the first place. Never underestimate the show's capacity for contrivance. The stiff might've been a fake.

[paigow]

25 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

I'm not even sure Isabella is dead. We don't know who she was in the first place. Never underestimate the show's capacity for contrivance. The stiff might've been a fake.

Isabella knew that Oswald was going to kill her...so she had a decoy corpse in the car??? Is she Red John??? Let's hope that this does not devolve into Blacklist depths of inane fake deaths...

[Lebanna]

Perhaps they're going the 'Vertigo' route with Isabella. There'll be another lookalike along shortly, gazing at dead secoyas going - 'Here I was born, and here I died...'

[Lebanna]

Perhaps they're going the 'Vertigo' route with Isabella. There'll be another lookalike along shortly, gazing at dead secoyas going - 'Here I was born, and here I died...'

[Camera One]

I thought this episode was one of the better ones.  I found myself agreeing with Barnes... there is so much corruption and rot in this city which cannot be solved using lawful means.  Even Jim should realize this by now.  

I thought Barnes had superhuman strength an episode or two back.  But now he's so easily captured?  

I thought the Penguin/Riddler pairing could have potential, but now it's just another waiting game before Ed figures out the truth, which just isn't very interesting.

The new Ivy is so inconsistently written.  She's so suave and a total femme fatale whenever we see her with men, but with Bruce and Selina, she acts like a foolish child in an adult's body?  We haven't seen any of that characterization in previous episodes.  She's clearly smart enough to make "perfume".  When she was first aged up, she killed a man with no provocation.  And now she just leaves that rich guy alive?  How convenient that the archers found Selina's box of Bruce Wayne clippings.  How about just recognizing the most well known teenager in Gotham?  

[Kathemy]

Actually she didn't kill the guy. He reported the crime to the police.

[Chaos Theory]

The more I think about it the more I wish the Barnes stuff lasted longer.  Honestly it was the best part of the episode.  I wouldn't have minded if he gave the GCPD the slip and used his files to kill the odd Gothemite.  Season ending with Jim saving Barbara from Barnes putting Barbara back on the board.  

[Kathemy]

It's only a matter of time before Barnes is broken out, though.

[Lantern7]

Arkham might be the safest place to live. Y'know, because this is Gotham.

Maybe the writers thought Isabella-avenging-Kristen was too obvious, and they wanted us to expect that? Still lame. I mean, fun to see two damaged men play off each other, but yeah . . . it's a bit gross.

Ivy-as-criminal only does so much to offset the "chick Big" plot, which is also gross. Luckily, Selina is there to put her down. On the downside, Bruce seems okay with her skipping puberty altogether.

How close will Barnes and Jervis be at Arkham? That's gonna be fun. "Hello, dear sister!" "GUILTY! GUILTY!! GUILTY!!!"

[Perfect Xero]

I still think that Kristen is going to be this show's Kenny, there's a lab full of Kringle Klones that are going to show up to torment Oswald one by one.

Gordon actually played something close to the vest for an hour before he told the guy pointing a gun at him that he wouldn't work with him, I'm counting that as an improvement for Jim.

As for Ivy, I don't think she's ever been written as particularly bright. Didn't she sell Selina's location out for a candy bar at one point when Gordon and Bullock were looking for her?

[thuganomics85]

That is really it for Isabella, huh?  Kind of lame to bring the actress back only to kill her character off again, and it was only to beef up the drama between Oswald and Nygma.  So, now Nygma believes (or says he believes) that it was Butch who killed her in order to get revenge on Nygma, and Oswald is going along with it.  I'm sure things will get worse from either, but obviously neither Oswald or Nygma are going to suffer anything too fatal, because....  you know, comics.

Also bummed that Barnes has already been captured.  This arc seem to light a fire back into Michael Chiklis again, and there seemed to be a lot of interesting directions this could have gone in.  I wouldn't be surprised if he does break out of Arkham at one point, but they still should have given it a few more episode.  I wonder if Bullock is going to assume the captain's chair again, or if some other poor soul will get what is quickly becoming the Defense of the Dark Arts spot in the GCPD.

I remember Ivy always being a bit daft to say the least, but she does seem to be getting even dumber by the minute.  Maybe it's just because she is being played by an older actress.  But at the very least, she should have known that the necklace was worth way more then $1000.  Come on, now.  But whatever: I still think it is obvious that the only reason this whole storyline came about is because they think this show needs more eye-candy, and therefore, Older Sexy Ivy.

Barnes/Chiklis final "GUILTY!" and glare at the camera has got to be one of the best campy moments, not including anything involving Jada Pinkett Smith or James Frain.  No one can really top those two in the scenery chewing department!

I can only imagine what Alfred's reaction is going to be when he finds out that not only are a bunch of assassins after Bruce or that Selina is crashing at the place, but now an aged-up Ivy as well.

[Kathemy]

<Doux Reviews> <The Executioner>

[jhlipton]

17 hours ago, frogzapper said:

I also loved the exchange that followed when it dawned on Ivy that Bruce and Selina were a thing. I thought Bruce's and Selina's reactions and comedic timing were perfect!

The whole "Are you boyfriend and girlfriend?" "Yes." "No." "We're not?" "Can we talk about this when we're not being pursued by thugs with crossbows?" was the best part.  David Mazouz and Camren Bicondova really sold it -- and knowing they're still going to be having this argument as adults makes it funnier.

[paigow]

How is Bruce getting in and out of Gotham? Public transit? Is Alfred the invisible driver? 

Bruce: [to Ivy & Selina] We'll go back to my house...Hurry! The bus is coming!!! 

[Kathemy]

I'd assume he's got the money for a cab.

[JyDanzig]

I was just thinking how, not so long ago, when a promising gay-involved storyline was suddenly dropped or misdirected, you know the network had lost their nerve and swerved the showrunners away from where they really wanted to go.  Fortunately, we have now progressed to the point where the mishandling of the fascinating Nygma/Oswald/Isabella setup isn't necessarily the result of executive meddling... it could just be plain bad writing.

I thought this ep was OK, but there were more interesting directions to take every one of these stories.  This show needs to learn to not be in such a rush all the time!  Every story is underperforming it's potential because they're rocketing thru at this accelerated pace.  Take a minute to let some of these dramatic events breath!  Play a little more back-and-fourth before getting to the climax!

[Dame sans merci]

11 hours ago, JyDanzig said:

I was just thinking how, not so long ago, when a promising gay-involved storyline was suddenly dropped or misdirected, you know the network had lost their nerve and swerved the showrunners away from where they really wanted to go.  Fortunately, we have now progressed to the point where the mishandling of the fascinating Nygma/Oswald/Isabella setup isn't necessarily the result of executive meddling... it could just be plain bad writing.

I thought this ep was OK, but there were more interesting directions to take every one of these stories.  This show needs to learn to not be in such a rush all the time!  Every story is underperforming it's potential because they're rocketing thru at this accelerated pace.  Take a minute to let some of these dramatic events breath!  Play a little more back-and-fourth before getting to the climax!

It is quite odd just what they choose to focus on in depth: we had approximately one episode of the mayoral campaign before election day, and yet 5 episodes and counting dedicated to the Oswald/Ed/Isabella love triangle of doom. We also, of course, have the Jim/Lee/Mario stuff going on, because 'Gotham'  has a LOVE. TRIANGLE. ADDICTION. IT. JUST. CAN'T. QUIT. SEEK. HELP. GOTHAM. DAMMIT.

They rushed past Fish and Strange's escapees, when you could have had a lot more mileage from that, and the Mad Hatter's reign of terror also ended rather limply and abruptly. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Blackcanary

[Chaos Theory]

22 hours ago, Blackcanary said:

It is quite odd just what they choose to focus on in depth: we had approximately one episode of the mayoral campaign before election day, and yet 5 episodes and counting dedicated to the Oswald/Ed/Isabella love triangle of doom. We also, of course, have the Jim/Lee/Mario stuff going on, because 'Gotham'  has a LOVE. TRIANGLE. ADDICTION. IT. JUST. CAN'T. QUIT. SEEK. HELP. GOTHAM. DAMMIT.

They rushed past Fish and Strange's escapees, when you could have had a lot more mileage from that, and the Mad Hatter's reign of terror also ended rather limply and abruptly. 

I agree with this.   The show has a tendency to focus on the wrong thing at the wrong moment and rush through entertaining and promising storylines at a fever pace.  Barnes' spiral into madness could have been a compelling season long storyline.  Nygma and Penguin could have gone a little deeper into romance before throwing Isabella into the mix.  Hell I've  brought up more then once the fact that the show does not know how to use its female cast at all.  It has several female characters that are compelling and fun but it refuses to use them.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[paigow]

On 11/16/2016 at 2:11 PM, Kathemy said:

I'd assume he's got the money for a cab.

Bruce: That guy shot my phone with his crossbow...no Uber now...

[HoodlumSheep]

I've finally caught up:

• Okayish episode overall
• bye bye Barnes! I'm sure we'll see you again some point down the line
• still don't care for nu Ivy. I'm in the camp that believes she lost a few brain cells when she got aged up. Also, she now talks a lot more too. She completely lost  her creepy kid vibe that Clare foley (?spelling?) gave her character. I just don't care for this new actress. Sorry.
• Also agree with those who've mentioned the likeness between the cursed captain/commissioner/head-honcho and the cursed Def. Against the DA position in HP. :P
• Really hoping Ed knows that it was Penguin who axed Isabella and is secretly forming an evil plan for revenge. 
• Harvey continues to be great. Now that Jim is back with the GCPD, I'm glad that Harvey's getting back more of the screen time he used to have. Some of it. 

[Artsda]

"I was gone for like an hour!" LOL Harvey I laughed out loud.

Ed's really stupid if he really thinks it was Butch.

[Gobi]

On 11/15/2016 at 5:02 PM, icemiser69 said:

I hope you are right, but the writers have already dumbed down the Nygma character.  If it wasn't for the blind homeless individual Nygma talked to by the railroad tracks, the thought would have never entered his mind that his girlfriend was murdered.  I really do think that he thinks Butch is behind Isabella's death.  And if Butch dies, then Nygma will go on believing Butch was behind Isabella's death.  That is the type of shitty writing that happens on soap operas.  I hope the writers of Gotham are above that. 

Nygma's suspicions were aroused the moment he realized the accident scene was only four blocks away from Isabella's apartment. That's why he questioned the blind guy. 

[Kathemy]

I think the bottom line is that Ed is a bit "slow" emotionally, which sort of goes with the high-functioning autism spectre. He really doesn't get that Ozzie's into him, and he won't unless Ozzie screams it in his face. In fact he's a bit similar to Bruce in that regard; intellectualizing all his relationships. Only reason Bruce figured out "okay, Selina is totally in love with me" is he'd been obsessing over their relationship for three years. But Bruce has an interest in stuff like that and Eddie doesn't. "Evil Eddie" isn't someone who wants to get close to people. "Good Eddie" was - and that's who Izzie appealed to - but he failed miserably at it all the time.

So when it comes to Eddie he really can't figure out what motive Oswald could possibly have to murder Isabella, it makes no sense to him.

[Dame sans merci]

2 hours ago, Kathemy said:

I think the bottom line is that Ed is a bit "slow" emotionally, which sort of goes with the high-functioning autism spectre. He really doesn't get that Ozzie's into him, and he won't unless Ozzie screams it in his face. In fact he's a bit similar to Bruce in that regard; intellectualizing all his relationships. Only reason Bruce figured out "okay, Selina is totally in love with me" is he'd been obsessing over their relationship for three years. But Bruce has an interest in stuff like that and Eddie doesn't. "Evil Eddie" isn't someone who wants to get close to people. "Good Eddie" was - and that's who Izzie appealed to - but he failed miserably at it all the time.

So when it comes to Eddie he really can't figure out what motive Oswald could possibly have to murder Isabella, it makes no sense to him.

Definitely. We saw Ed proudly talking last season about how he could understand and interpret the needs of his fellow Arkham patients, but something that's not being very transparently broadcast - like Oswald's feelings - is another matter entirely. The nuance is beyond him.

Given that this storyline seems to have trundled along rather predictably thus far, I do wonder if that's the wildcard twist here: you'd have to suspect that, for a narcissist like Ed, particularly once he spirals a bit into his 'dark Ed' persona, learning somebody is obsessed enough with him to kill for him would rather...appeal to him. But we shall see.

[Gobi]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

  My memory isn't as good as it once was (not that it was ever that great to begin with).  

I know that feeling!

[Lazlo]

I guess this is a minority opinion but I found Ivy as comic relief airhead fairly amusing and certainly a lot less creepy than Ivy as femme fatale. I'm not sure she's that much dumber really; she always struck me as someone completely dependent on Selina's smarts (also Camren Bicondova does frustration really well).