S06.E07: Heartless

[Rumsy4]

5 minutes ago, Randomosity said:

I thought the same. It could certainly be read as hinting at that sort of thing. One of the only ways that scene makes sense to me.

ETA: Wait! Ha. You know how sometimes parents will arrange to have a genetically engineered child so that the cord blood or organs or whatever are a perfect match to a preexisting sibling with a terminal disease? What if the answer to all this season's nonsense is something like the product of a product of true love's true love. Heh. It would be a way to force the shmoopy 'fall in love, have a kid, and live happily ever after' on Emma without it being quite as cliche.

haha. That would be funny (and cute).

[MedievalGirl]

Oh. I once wondered if Rumble had somehow detected or arranged true love for Snow's parents and David's parents in order to distill even more love into Emma. He certainly had the time for such a long game even as he was working on other solutions. 

[Shanna Marie]

Just now, MedievalGirl said:

I once wondered if Rumble had somehow detected or arranged true love for Snow's parents and David's parents in order to distill even more love into Emma. He certainly had the time for such a long game even as he was working on other solutions. 

He didn't seem to know it would be Snow and David from the start. In the time travel, he was surprised when Emma mentioned that, as he'd arranged the marriage between "James" and Abigail, so I doubt he worked on their parents. But I've always had the sense that he was trying to "goose" Snow and David to amp up their love. He did keep getting them into situations where they had to overcome obstacles or make sacrifices for each other, like he was trying to intensify their love. I have to admit, I'm not crazy about the idea of the magic baby love tree from their first meeting, when they hadn't even seen each other. I do know of cases of love at first sight (my dad for my mom, though I think it took her getting to know him), but magical true love needs a little more to it, I would hope. Then again, since they've shown magical true love coming from a single bicycle ride (and happening while one person was actually conning the other), from one walk in the woods, and with one person having been unconscious the entire time, I guess they needed to retcon the one case of True Love that actually seems earned to at least equal the others we've seen. It wouldn't be fair if the Charmings had to go through all that to get True Love while everyone else just has it happen instantly.

[Rumsy4]

And with this episode, Zelena is on the death-watch. There's no point to her in the story, as both versions of her sister are only using her. And Rumple's out to ger her. 

[Camera One]

On paper, this was retread territory, but I enjoyed watching tonight's episode.  I think it's the first one this season where the conversations were consistently well written.  The usual quibbles apply, like we can't have a Snowing/Emma-only scene longer than 20 seconds, but at least we got to hear them talking about each other, which is the only crumbs we'll get from these Writers.  The CS scene in the vault was one of their best scenes this season.

I think I liked tonight's flashbacks because they included some familiar supporting characters.  Charming felt more "real" talking to his mother in this scene than the horrible Anna episode from a few seasons back.  Snow's conversation with Blue was pretty funny... Blue was full of hope with comments like "You only got 3 coppers for it?!" and "How do you know [the noble] won't [sell you out] anyway?"  "Danger can look harmless at first!  And even though I can go with you, I have other things to do... ta ta!"  

I didn't mind the retcon since it gave a chance for the two characters to be more themselves than they have for years.  It was nice that Snow was inspired to be Bandit Snow by David instead of by some guest star of the week.

At the end of the day, there was no point to the whole Magic Sapling, was there?  It didn't help them at all.  If you spend an entire hour on it, there should be at least some effect.  I don't understand how Charming can find the exact spot in the forest where the coffin was, when that was in the Enchanted Forest.  That made zero sense to me.  And how did The Evil Queen put Snow under a Sleeping Curse without pricking her or getting her to eat an apple or anything?  

Behind the scenes of this episode:

WRITER 1: Zzzzzz... I don't want to write for BOTH Snow and Charming.  

WRITER 2: How about a Sleeping Curse where only one of them is awake at any one time?

Why did The Evil Queen have to make a deal with Gold for that vial of underworld water?  Couldn't she just threaten to kill everyone in town pretty easily?  

I am glad Belle is still rejecting Rumple, but some of the lines they gave her were atrocious.  "He's not acting like the man he could be."  I'm sure everyone in the room rolled their eyes from within.  New moral lesson from this show - "fear of failing is worse than being evil."  "If you were pure evil, maybe I would forgive you."  LOL!  The Writers should really put out a calendar with all their lines to live by.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

It was beyond stupid for Regina to just stand there and let her EQ half take the sapling. What was the point? Couldn't she at least put up a fight?

According to Jane on Twitter...

Paola Rivera ‏@singsthesoul  5h5 hours ago
WHY COULDN'T REGINA POOF THE STICK BACK FROM THE EQ???? #OnceUponATime

Jane Espenson Verified account ‏@JaneEspenson
@singsthesoul The EQ's magic would have exerted a pull back, equal to the poof-force. You gotta get a jump on the other person.

---

She also confirmed to several people that the vial was just a sample of the Underworld Water, and The Evil Queen had more of it.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Camera One

[PixiePaws1]

Ye gods....there were so many anvils dropping all about me while I was watching this...but as most are spoilery I will pop my comments in the Spoiler thread.

LOVED the CS vault scene, only drawback will be the rabid SQ faction who will inevitably yell about how controlling and abusive Killian is for telling Emma to shush...

The unilateral 'ick' face about THAT scene and, seeing Snow back was wonderful.

I thought the slow-mo Sleeping Curse switch off was beautifully done....and Yay, took forever but finally some major payoff for the heart split....

[KAOS Agent]

I did get more of a Season 1 feel from this episode. Jane seems to be the one writer who is able to bring that feeling since she also wrote "The Other Shoe". My standards for this show have fallen pretty low, and on that scale, this one rates decently.

Some notes:

- What do we need to do to get shirtless David? At least he wasn't wearing Scrooge's nightshirt this time, but was it necessary to be wearing a tank top in bed? Points for the deep vee on his Enchanted Forest shirt though. Yes, I'm shallow.

- The Blue Fairy really is worthless. She couldn't magic the Woodcutter's axes away? Or poof Snow somewhere else? Or give her some cash for her jewelry? 

- I spent the entire episode worried about the dog. I am still worried about the dog. Did he die before the curse? Where is the adorable dog?

- I like the sleeping curse twist, but if Snow & David must be kissed at the same time, can't Snowflake kiss one while Emma kisses the other? Fetus!Damien kissed Belle awake, so Snowflake ought to work. I still highly question Emma's ability to wake her parents though. 

- Again I ask why is Zelena there? What does she do with Pistachio when she's off crashing the Evil Queen and Rumpel's afternoon delight?

- I'm still bored with the Evil Queen's revenge quest on Snow. What's the point? Is she actually going to get anything from this? Is she already bored with it by the next episode, so she decides to make us watch another Swan Queen adventure?

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

According to Jane on Twitter...

Paola Rivera ‏@singsthesoul  5h5 hours ago
WHY COULDN'T REGINA POOF THE STICK BACK FROM THE EQ???? #OnceUponATime

Jane Espenson Verified account ‏@JaneEspenson
@singsthesoul The EQ's magic would have exerted a pull back, equal to the poof-force. You gotta get a jump on the other person.

Ugh. Yet another Twitter explanation for something that ought to have been shown on-screen. At least this one's not as bad as the Titan's heart explanation. haha

[ElectricBoogaloo]

First of all, what in the holy fuck was Blue wearing? That costume seemed way more cheap tacky Halloween costume than I remember it being back in S1.

I just can't with all of this retconning. I'm really supposed to believe that the magic baby tree of true love grew because Snow and Charming touched hands? No, show.

At least we got to see Hook and Emma's stankfaces when Regina said that she and Gold always had chemistry. I just threw up in my mouth a little bit typing that.

David is lucky that all the woodcutter did was drug him and borrow his dog. When he opened the back of his wagon and I saw the torture dungeon, I was afraid he was going to make David his sex slave.

7 hours ago, Mari said:

I don't see how Rumple/Belle could believably reconcile after that.  I don't care if they were on a break.  Usually, I agree with the concept that "on a break" means you aren't cheating.  However, if it's "True Love," instead of just regular love-love, you should be able to keep your tongue in your own mouth even on a break.

"WE WERE ON A BREAK!"

Edited November 7, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[PixiePaws1]

There was an axe.....and Charming goes for the metal lock...on the WOODEN door....!

[Serena]

8 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

As much as I like seeing Belle stand up to Rumple, what she was saying was kind of ridiculous. if you're just plain evil, you can be forgiven, but being afraid makes you weak and that cannot be forgiven? What kind of morality lesson is that? I understand what she was getting at, it just came off as strange logic to me. I still don't understand why Rumple is with the evil queen. I'm guessing he's just playing along because he'll need her for something in the future.

I thought what she was saying was basically that the Evil Queen is Pure Evil, and she's magically created to be so - she can't really 'help' it or become better. Rumple, however, has the choice to be better, and he's choosing to still be evil because he's so afraid of failure.

[Arnella]

I could be wrong but do they like to feature Snow when Gennifer is in her 3rd trimester?

[Tiger]

22 minutes ago, Arnella said:

I could be wrong but do they like to feature Snow when Gennifer is in her 3rd trimester?

Is this the same pregnancy that was going on during 5B, or is this another/third baby? 

[Curio]

What was the point of chasing after the baby tree if it just got crushed anyways? This show always has the heroes wasting time chasing after meaningless MacGuffins. Couldn't we have shown Evil Regina using the dust from the crushed tree at the graveyard and had her sprinkle it over Snow and Charming's hearts to make that whole plot not entirely pointless? That also would have been a good way of explaining how Regina was able to randomly change the sleeping curse's rules—she could just say the crushed baby tree was the final ingredient. 

I would have enjoyed this episode more (and this entire season) if they addressed the elephant in the room: Regina and the Evil Queen are the same person. Stop addressing them like two different people. Regina comes across as kind of pathetic for not being able to control her other half, and all episode, Regina just stood there with a pained expression and barely lifted a finger as she watched herself chew the scenery and torment the Charmings. Did she ever apologize to Snow and Charming for what her other half was saying? Why isn't Regina trying to do more to stop herself? Why is it that the Charmings were willing to sacrifice their hearts for the good of the town, but it was never suggested that Regina should consider sacrificing herself for the good of the town? 

Belle told Rumple that the Evil Queen is pure evil who can't love, so she can't help what she's doing with Rumple, but the Evil Queen does love Henry. So, according to Belle's logic, the Evil Queen is just as bad as Rumple because she does have the capacity to love and chooses not to. And if the Evil Queen loves Henry, that means she has some of Regina's current memories, so why is it that she's still wanting Snow's heart when that should have been resolved seasons ago?

Let's replace the word "Evil Queen" with "Regina" in this episode's dialogue to show how far everyone is willing to go to separate the two people in their minds:

• "The Evil Queen's Regina is trying to kill my parents."
• "I don't know that we'll ever get back to normal. The Evil Queen's Regina's finally got us."
• "So we either let the whole town die, or the Evil Queen Regina gets exactly what she's always wanted."
• "But there is a bit of magic that just might be powerful enough to imprison the Evil Queen Regina."
• "The Evil Queen and Gold's Our alliance, there, um, may be more to it than business. Rumple and I... there was always a certain amount of chemistry."
• "We just need to figure out where we're gonna put the Evil Queen Regina once we've got her."
• "They're gonna find that magic little baby tree thing and defeat the Evil Queen Regina." 
• "What if the Evil Queen Regina gets there first and I'm not ready for a fight?"
• "Once upon a time, the Evil Queen Regina vowed to kill Snow White and separate these two."

The tone changes entirely. I understand that part of this is a writing technique to not confuse the audience, but when you don't call the Evil Queen by her real name, it makes her come across as a cartoon character instead of a real person, and it also absolves Regina of any of her own actions. The one line that comes close to acknowledging they're the same person is when Regina refers to herself and Rumple having chemistry, but everything else is as if the town has blindly accepted that Regina's alter ego is an entirely different person and Regina has no culpability over her own actions. We've already had Rumple tell Jekyll, "That man out there? He's not some monster from the deep. It's you. Except stronger and smarter." So why can't the writers use the same logic with Regina? It's almost as if the writers plucked the Evil Queen's personality from Season 1's timeline and dropped her into the present day, but that version of Regina shouldn't have any strong feelings towards Henry. Regina blamed Zelena for Robin's death much like she blamed Snow for Daniel's death, so wouldn't this new Evil Queen focus more on putting Zelena under a sleeping curse? Why is she backtracking to Season 1 drama with Snow? Why wouldn't Regina blame Emma for Robin's death and try to put her under a sleeping curse as well?

Complaining aside, I really enjoyed watching a Snow and Charming adventure for once, and the twist at the end actually has good potential for drama as long as they extend it out for a good chunk of episodes. Ginnifer seemed to enjoy acting in the flashback material, and I appreciated Jane throwing us a bone with the line about Regina rejecting Snow's father's love and trashing the brooch. (So often, we only get Regina's side of the story and Snow is silenced.) Belle has been entertaining as hell this season when she gets to yell at Rumple, and Hook giving Emma a story time was perfection. And I agree with everyone else about Zelena, unfortunately. She's extra baggage at this point and I wouldn't mind if Rumple killed her. Bex is a fun actress to watch, but the writers can't seem to figure out what they want to do with her character. 

[MarilynTC]

As a collie owner, I got too excited at seeing the herding dog in the opening, and was trying to figure out how much of an untold story the collie in 101 Dalmations could possibly  have, seeing as how he was only in the movie for about 2 minutes during the dogs' escape from Jasper & Horace's watch at the old abandoned mansion. 

[Rumsy4]

I kept hoping the doggie was a girl-dog and its name was Mary. Mary the sheep-dog looking for lost lambs. :-p

[Daisy]

2 hours ago, Arnella said:

I could be wrong but do they like to feature Snow when Gennifer is in her 3rd trimester?

 

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

Is this the same pregnancy that was going on during 5B, or is this another/third baby? 

that's what i'm trying to figure out. Ginnifer had her second baby already (according to wiki, another boy) but that doesn't mean she wasn't still filming whilst she was pregnant. She does look rather pregnant puffy (or post baby puffy), and strangely enough... shorter. It's like either she was wearing boots with heels or something in the earlier seasons because now she just looks shorter - that really came about during the flashbacks! lol But I think if she were pregnant, Snow would be the sleeping one for the most part, not David right now, so I think she's post partum.

Everytime I hear Baby Do Over's name, I see rage. 

[Writing Wrongs]

11 hours ago, Randomosity said:

Captain Hook storytime seemed like yet another foreshadowing for a CS baby.

God, no more plot device babies please.

[Serena]

As far as we know, Ginnifer gave birth this summer (spring?) and is not pregnant again. Women usually take about two years to get back to their pre-baby weight, and she had two pregnancies rather close, so it's perfectly normal that she wouldn't be back to her S1/S2 body. Also, the wardrobe people gave her absolutely awful clothes.

[orza]

Ginny gave birth last spring. What we are seeing now is the excess weight gained during both pregnancies. Not every woman gains excess weight during pregnancy. Look at Emilie. She lost a bit of weight beforehand and didn't gain any excess weight during her pregnancy. She looks great.

[kili]

What kind of contortionist is Snow that she could get out of that locked wagon? Charming gives her the key, but she has to get her arm through a small hole, twist it back and under to get at the lock. Charming was struggling with it and he has two hands, is outside and can see the thing.

That dog was adorable.

Maybe Snow should have taken her jewelry to the pirates. They would probably have given  her more than a few pennies. See, Leo did try to love Regina giving her the gift of love, but she treated it like garbage.

Regina whining about the horse that Leo gave his daughter...I'm beginning to think that Regina hates Snow more because her dad loved her and less because Snow told a secret. She's constantly complaining about the great relationship Snow and Leo had. Granted Regina's parents were both horrible (yes, her dad too. He was such an enabler for both his wife and his daughter. Dude has blood all over his hands) and never even taught her how to dance.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm gonna complain about how arrogant Snowing are. What they did in this episode, how they decided to be self-sacrificial reminded me of when Snow decided that she wouldn't execute Regina because reasons and hope for the best. 

There was a damn plan in place where the vault was emptied out of its contents and Emma and Regina were going to give it a go and lock EQ in the vault where she would stay if they were successful. But nope, let's give her the hearts instead. They have a daughter who is facing some serious challenges, a baby they kept whining about last season because they weren't with him, but their solution is to give their heart to the Evil Queen even though there was ANOTHER PLAN. 

These 2 are idiots. It's probably a good thing one of them will be asleep, that way they'll stop sharing a brain on top of sharing a heart. 

The Regina they have on screen right now is one I can definitely get on board with. I liked the scene with the TLK and the "how about that". 

At least the writers are very aware of the ewwiness of Rumple/EQ. Those facial expressions were on point.

I really liked the vault scene with Hook and Emma. They don't have tons of scenes this season, but so far they've been meaningful.

This Belle needs to stay.

[RadioGirl27]

I have liked this one, even with the new retcon in Snowing's meeting. The reactions to GoldenQueen were priceless (poor Henry, having to hear that. At least, he didn't have to witness it) and the CS scene was lovely.

[Mathius]

3 hours ago, Curio said:

Why is it that the Charmings were willing to sacrifice their hearts for the good of the town, but it was never suggested that Regina should consider sacrificing herself for the good of the town? 

Holy shit, I forgot all about that.  The entire town's lives and/or the Charmings' lives are on the line...THIS would be the kind of situation where Regina should step up and say "Hey Emma, time to make good on your promise".  But no, nothing about that ever comes up in the episode.  WTF?

Edited November 7, 2016 by Mathius

[Primetimer]

Evil Queens, sleeping curses, and true love's kiss...you'd be forgiven for not being sure what season it is.

View the full article

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Curio said:

I would have enjoyed this episode more (and this entire season) if they addressed the elephant in the room: Regina and the Evil Queen are the same person. Stop addressing them like two different people.

Yeah, they're talking like it's their old nemesis from back in the day, or maybe Regina's evil twin. No one seems to remember that this is the same person, that everything they're seeing in the Evil Queen now has been a part of Regina all along, up to the split. No one's turning to her and saying, "Seriously, Regina? Is this how you've felt about us all along?" She's not cringing at seeing her worst inner self played out and apologizing or explaining, no, "I'm sorry, I'd really pushed those feelings down deep, but I didn't realize how strong they still were" or "That's not really the way I felt about you. I don't know where this is coming from."

1 hour ago, kili said:

Regina whining about the horse that Leo gave his daughter...I'm beginning to think that Regina hates Snow more because her dad loved her and less because Snow told a secret.

That was kind of my theory in the Regina thread, that it's not entirely about Daniel, that Daniel was more an excuse. Regina's a raging narcissist, and as awful as her parents were, they did dote on her. She was 100 percent their focus. Cora might have been overbearing and abusive, but the entire focus of her existence was making Regina into a queen. Henry Sr. didn't seem to love Cora, so his focus was all on Regina. Then suddenly, Regina's married to Leo, and she's no longer the center of the universe. Leo loved her, but he also loved Snow, and then the courtiers and the kingdom also loved Snow, and Regina couldn't deal.

46 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I'm gonna complain about how arrogant Snowing are. What they did in this episode, how they decided to be self-sacrificial reminded me of when Snow decided that she wouldn't execute Regina because reasons and hope for the best. 

It's interesting how when Regina, a mass murderer who killed Snow's father, is tried and convicted, Snow can't get her hero hands dirty by going through with the execution, letting Regina go as long as Regina couldn't hurt them, and never mind what she could do to everyone else, but then no one blinks an eye when David kills the bounty hunter, who was nasty, but it seems like what he was doing was actually legal. I may have shouted at the TV, "This wouldn't be happening if you'd executed her when she was tried and convicted" a few times.

29 minutes ago, Mathius said:

he entire town's lives and/or the Charmings' lives are on the line...THIS would be the kind of situation where Regina should step up and say "Hey Emma, time to make good on your promise".  But no, nothing about that ever comes up in the episode.

And then there's that. Easy solution, even if they ended up disagreeing and refusing to go through with it.

[iMonrey]

Quote

 It's almost as if the writers plucked the Evil Queen's personality from Season 1's timeline and dropped her into the present day, but that version of Regina shouldn't have any strong feelings towards Henry. Regina blamed Zelena for Robin's death much like she blamed Snow for Daniel's death, so wouldn't this new Evil Queen focus more on putting Zelena under a sleeping curse? Why is she backtracking to Season 1 drama with Snow? Why wouldn't Regina blame Emma for Robin's death and try to put her under a sleeping curse as well?

Yeah, I just can't buy into this whole idea of The Evil Queen being a different person than Regina, so I'm having a hard time investing in this season. It's not making any sense - it probably would have worked better if they'd just used time travel to pluck Season 1 Evil Queen out of the past and plopped her down into present day StoryBrooke.

I get that the writers are in love with the fun, campy Evil Queen character from the flashbacks. But they've spent the last four seasons bending over backwards to "redeem" Regina to the point where they now expect us to accept the idea that there are literally two different Reginas. But, there aren't. This "Evil Queen" entity is the exact same person Regina was pre-curse. She may have physically separated herself from her worst impulses but that doesn't absolve her of anything she did. It wasn't another person responsible for all those deaths - including Graham's. It was her.

Quote

It was beyond stupid for Regina to just stand there and let her EQ half take the sapling. What was the point? Couldn't she at least put up a fight?

The EQ's magic would have exerted a pull back, equal to the poof-force. You gotta get a jump on the other person.

That's a lot of baloney. If Evil Queen had some way of preventing Regina from magicking the sapling back, then they should have given Regina the sapling to begin with, since they knew Evil Queen and Rumple would have been after it too. Protecting it should have been their first priority. That's the problem with magic on this show - you spend half the time wondering why they don't use it. Anything the Evil Queen can do, Regina should be able to do as well.

[Arnella]

Why can't Jane Espenson always be the writer?  Then she could take this story where it needs to be without having the deal with the crap A&E put in.   Excellent curse!

I actually liked Belle and Gold's interaction (!?) - It was because it seemed like Belle finally GETS it.  Gold was true to character - never occurs to him to just be a good father to change his fate with his son.

So does the characters getting squeeked out by EQ/Gold "chemistry" mean that A&E understand how gross it is and they are just building up to some pay off with it?  Or is Jane just trying to clean up another of their plot messes?

[OnceUponAJen]

1 hour ago, Mathius said:

Holy shit, I forgot all about that.  The entire town's lives and/or the Charmings' lives are on the line...THIS would be the kind of situation where Regina should step up and say "Hey Emma, time to make good on your promise".  But no, nothing about that ever comes up in the episode.  WTF?

The only thing I can think of is that it would be difficult to do that with Henry standing right there.  it's an impossible situation,  but I agree Regina making the sacrifice would have been the most sensible route at that point. I kept wondering why Henry doesn't start acting like his Dad and tell the EQ off. I think it might have some effect since she does love Henry.

[tennisgurl]

Why cant we always have Jane Espenson as the writer? She`s not perfect, but her episodes are about a million times better than we get from a lot of the other writers. At least Jane's episodes are fun, and she seems to have some understanding of character. 

At last a decent Snowing story! Yeah they're still plagued by the issues they have always had the last few years (stupid choices, moral iffiness), but at least they seemed like themselves, and Josh and Ginny sold the hell out of their romantic lines. The new sleeping curse is at least a nice new twist on them, and at least the Evil Queen is actually doing something evil, instead of just screwing around with Zelena and Rumple. 

My favorite scene was probably everyone's reactions to Regina's "chemistry" with Rumple. Everyone was so grossed out. Poor Henry has to hear about his adopted moms creepy sexual chemistry with his grandpa? What a life. 

We haven't gotten a lot of Hook/Emma, but the stuff we have gotten has been good this season. I will take less focus and less drama any day of the week. 

That dog was so unbelievably cute. He looked so cuddly, I want to pet him! Can he be in the Storybrooke pet shelter, and we can have him as our adorable team pet?

[Shanna Marie]

53 minutes ago, OnceUponAJen said:

The only thing I can think of is that it would be difficult to do that with Henry standing right there.  it's an impossible situation,  but I agree Regina making the sacrifice would have been the most sensible route at that point.

But surely they had some opportunity for Regina to pull Emma aside and mention it. Or Regina and Snow could have talked about it when they went after the magic baby tree.

And why didn't Henry say anything at all to the Evil Queen in the cemetery confrontation? He's given Emma far more grief over not talking about things that were bothering her than he has the Evil Queen for wanting to destroy the whole town and/or kill his grandparents. No outburst of "Why are you doing this?" or "You don't have to do this!"?

On the theme of "this is Regina, and this was in her up to the point of the split," I found myself thinking about how Joss Whedon would handle this plot. I don't think he's quite at god level, but one thing he is good at is wringing every last drop of character drama out of every situation, and I'm sure that's what he'd be doing with this. The Evil Queen's actions would be seen as revealing what was really going on with Regina all along, and then everyone else would be feeling betrayed because they busted themselves working to get Regina a happy ending, while all along she secretly wanted to destroy them, was holding herself back, and hated every minute of holding back. This revelation would create a huge rift in the group and would affect their relationship with Regina going forward after she inevitably reabsorbed her evil side. And after I thought this, I remembered that Jane Espenson has worked with Joss, so you'd think she'd know how to handle this, though I guess she's hampered by her current bosses and the REC.

It would have made far more sense if Emma and Hook and Zelena had been the Evil Queen's targets, since even "good" Regina blames Zelena for Robin's death and Regina admitted to wanting to rip out Hook's throat because she was upset that he came back to life when Robin was dead. If it had been Emma and Hook who were being kept apart, it would have fit what we know was going on with Regina that she was still working through, since those feelings were pretty raw at the time of the split. Her going back to Snow and David makes it look like she's been harboring secret hatred all this time and shows that she never forgave Snow and never thought she was in the wrong for targeting Snow.

34 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

That dog was so unbelievably cute. He looked so cuddly, I want to pet him! Can he be in the Storybrooke pet shelter, and we can have him as our adorable team pet?

When Jane tweeted something about how cute the dog was, I replied asking if we could keep him. Someone on this show needs a pet.

[justmythoughts]

Great plot with the heart sleeping curse! 

But the whole time I was thinking: well, A&E keep saying this is Regina eagger to be a hero without her evil side, so step up sister and say out loud "there is another solution, I die, the EQ dies, let me go as a hero as I have put all of us in this situation". 

Sure it would not have happened, everyone would say "nooo Ginaaaa!" but it would really show her new moto, her evil free new persona. 

The thing that bothers me the most is the lack of dialogues. It make people seem selfish, taking decisions without considering others, not even caring to explain... It happens basically ebery episode (the getting rid of the shears/ decided to hide the shears/ i'm dying, but no need for further conversation stuff/ Hook is back from the dead but let's not mention it... And so on...).

Love my little CS moment. It was great to see them together supporting each other (well, Killian supporting Emma, but I do believe when you let someone who loves you show their affection it is a equal important moment for them). And Snowing was great, great acting and I kept thinking "they're real, real life love!". So sweet.

[Slakkie]

The part I don't get is why the heroes thought by giving the Snowing heart the EQ would just put the water to the side.  It's not like they traded it.  It's not like they pinky swore.  She still has it, she can still use it.

Seriously - she is not Gold who makes trades.  How stupid were they?

[KingOfHearts]

The half-and-half Sleeping Curse feels like a retread of 2A to me. The twist that they'll be alone has been done before, but the difference is in what's separating them. In S1, it was Regina imprisoning David in her castle and then in the Infinite Forest. In 2A, they were in completely separate realms. Now it's this split-heart mechanic that doesn't make total sense. I would be so much more invested if I believed there would be any consequences at all.

Edited November 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Michel]

"Regina, oh, my God."  That reaction from Emma, plus Hook looking like he wanted to puke, was my everything.  Also, in case everyone missed it, Snow, David, and Henry didn't look too pleased, either.

Belle is totally, definitely done with Rumple romantically, and I love it!

Nice twist on the curse, as many have said.  I wonder how they can crack this one?

[Chaos Theory]

I'm enjoying this season more than I thought I would.  I don't care about retconning.  I thought The Snow/Charming stuff was cute and made sense for them as characters and I kinda like the idea of them circling around each other even before they officially met.

i kinda chuckled when Regina had to explain about The Evil Queen and Rumple's relationship and everyone's face when she did..ewwwww!

i have never been a fan of Hook and Emma but since they are a thing and almost certainly endgame I have learned to live with it and found Hook almost....uh charming this episode...ouch that hurt.  

I actually am liking Belle this season and her response to Rumple.  Don't care who you screw but when you screw with our unborn son you cross a line.  

[Michel]

8 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

i have never been a fan of Hook and Emma but since they are a thing and almost certainly endgame I have learned to live with it and found Hook almost....uh charming this episode...ouch that hurt.

Interesting.  I've never known anyone not to like Hook.  Is there some reason you don't, @Chaos Theory?

[Chaos Theory]

35 minutes ago, Michel said:

Interesting.  I've never known anyone not to like Hook.  Is there some reason you don't, @Chaos Theory?

I like being contrary and since everyone on the board seams to hate My favorite character Regina I found myself hating Hook.  It made no sense so I got over it.  

[Michel]

1 hour ago, Slakkie said:

The part I don't get is why the heroes thought by giving the Snowing heart the EQ would just put the water to the side.  It's not like they traded it.  It's not like they pinky swore.  She still has it, she can still use it.

Still, she didn't use it, so that's a start.

[Camera One]

There was a damn plan in place where the vault was emptied out of its contents and Emma and Regina were going to give it a go and lock EQ in the vault where she would stay if they were successful. But nope, let's give her the hearts instead. They have a daughter who is facing some serious challenges, a baby they kept whining about last season because they weren't with him, but their solution is to give their heart to the Evil Queen even though there was ANOTHER PLAN.

That plan went out the window when the Sapling of True Love was destroyed.  That was supposed to be the only thing with the magic to subdue The Evil Queen.

The better question is why Blue didn't mention it in the last couple of episodes.  And that sapling of love was pathetically weak.

[Shanna Marie]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

And that sapling of love was pathetically weak.

You'd think it would have grown more than that in the time between it being planted and the curse being cast, and then in the time since the time part of the curse was broken. It's probably had about five years. Or does the magic mean it remains a sapling forever?

On another note, we saw girls in school uniforms in town while Snow was looking around and seeing all the people who would die if she didn't hand over her heart (why didn't she do that when making the decision to let Regina go before the curse?). But we had no indication that either she or Henry were in school that day. I guess having the entire town held hostage if she didn't figure things out might count as an excused absence, and Jasmine must have been subbing for Snow, but what about Henry? He was hanging out with the family all day and clearly not in school.

[profdanglais]

Chiming in late to the discussion on Ginnifer Goodwin and her pregnancies... I think the main issue aside from the bizarrely unflattering wardrobe is her blunt haircut. In S1/2A her hair was adorable, with a little wispy pieces around her face, now it's just blunt across her forehead and that emphasises the roundness of her face. I'm a fan of GG from before Once and think she's lovely, but that hair is driving me mad. It's so unnecessarily bad. 

As far as the episode goes, meh, yeh, it was fine. The flashback was better than a lot of Charming's ones, but when he was fighting off the woodsman I couldn't help thinking "Oh, so this must be after Anna taught him how to courage," and eye rolling a little. 

[Rumsy4]

I agree about GG's haircut. It's been terribly unflattering for ages. I don't know why she styles it that way. 

I really didn't see the point of the Sapling. Unless it's going to be a future plot point for CS or something. 

Some twitter tidbits from Jane Espenson. Lol. She put a twist on the woodcutter from the original Red Riding Hood.

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[Camera One]

I saw that too, and I don't really think much of that crossover.  There was nothing about this "Wood Cutter" who had any ties to the Red Riding story.  He was so generic he might as well have been a lost Viking.  Hansel and Gretel's dad would have been a better fit as the Red Riding Hood Wood Cutter.

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I really didn't see the point of the Sapling.

Yes.  While I did enjoy this episode, I think it's a big problem when you create this entire "adventure" to find this sapling and there was zero point to it, both plot-wise and character-wise.  I mean, if The Evil Queen had planned to kill them, and the Sapling reduced that to a warped Sleeping Curse, then at least there would have been some purpose to it.  

Having said that, maybe Rumple will go vacuum up the powder next episode and use it to concoct a love potion to use on Belle or something.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Camera One

[Mathius]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

There was nothing about this "Wood Cutter" who had any ties to the Red Riding story.

Actually, there was a line saying that he was usually hired to hunt down werewolves, so there was a nod there.

[jhlipton]

10 hours ago, PreviouslyTV said:

Evil Queens, sleeping curses, and true love's kiss...you'd be forgiven for not being sure what season it is.

View the full article

That's why I almost didn't watch -- Season1 was fine but trying to recapture that magic just isn't happening.  Nice doggie, but otherwise meh.

[Euri]

New, and this is my first post. Big fan of the show. 

There were several lovely moments in this as well as some less than awesome ones.  A couple of continuity errors bothered me a bit.  The first was small and has already been mentioned before, but it was odd to see Shepherd David without long hair.  That took some adjusting.  I mean, we know the last wig was terrible, could he have at least gotten a better wig?? The other was about the sleeping curse.  While I love the twist on it (ingenious!) it seems to contradict what was already established during S4E17 that once someone is under a sleeping curse they can't go back under again.  Both Snow and Charming have been under a previous sleeping curse, so this shouldn't have worked.  Maybe that memo didn't get passed down, but I do wish there was a person whose job was just to make sure that kind of stuff doesn't happen. 

Um enough, of Gold and the EQ sucking face.  Really enough.  If Rumple meant what he said to Belle that it didn't mean anything then why is it going on?? Really, what is that whole relationship supposed to accomplish other than making us wish we hadn't seen that? However, Since Robert Carlyle and Lana Parilla are great friends in real life, I have to wonder how much giggling there was between them in filming that scene. LOL

So far we've seen Belle dump Rumple several times. I wonder when she will actually mean it and stop coming back for conversations.  That end conversation, by the way, was painful.  Belle, you knew what you were getting into long ago. It's like going to the pet store for a puppy and being upset that it's not a cat.  So when he told her that he was afraid that should have a) been no news and b) gotten a more sympathetic response since he was actually telling her the truth- just as she's always wanted.  Is it bad to say that at this point I really want them to be totally done with each other, Rumple to quietly spin in his shop, and Belle to start dating August- he's layered, wears leather, rides a motorbike, WANTS to be good, is a writer and has layers. Go find him, Belle! 

So many lovely, lovely moments between Charming and Snow this episode.  They are the reason I fell for the show so having that was beautiful and much appreciated.  I couldn't see the point of the sapling though.  

The award for best line in the show goes to Hook, hands (and hooks) down.  When he mentioned that he didn't trust water and that Rum would never do that kind of thing, I was laughing so hard.  Perfect delivery on that, Colin. 

[Curio]

Welcome to the forum, @Euri! It's always fun to read new opinions around here.

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While I love the twist on it (ingenious!) it seems to contradict what was already established during S4E17 that once someone is under a sleeping curse they can't go back under again.

 

Thanks for reminding me about that episode. The whole point of that episode was to show how Snow and Charming were unaffected by Mal's sleeping curse because they'd already been put under before, so are the writers throwing out all continuity because of this shiny new idea? Henry was unaffected by Mal's sleeping curse as well in 4x17, so it's not like Mal was specifically targeting Snow and Charming because she wanted to punish them for what they did with the eggbaby. Or maybe that's what the writers will say on Twitter.

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Is it bad to say that at this point I really want them to be totally done with each other, Rumple to quietly spin in his shop, and Belle to start dating August

 

I'm still holding out hope Belle will get together with Milo Thatch.

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I have learned to live with it and found Hook almost....uh charming this episode...ouch that hurt.

Like Hook said, he tends to have that affect on people. ;) (Come and join the nautical side, @Chaos Theory. You know you want to lol.) 

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But the whole time I was thinking: well, A&E keep saying this is Regina eagger to be a hero without her evil side, so step up sister and say out loud "there is another solution, I die, the EQ dies, let me go as a hero as I have put all of us in this situation". Sure it would not have happened, everyone would say "nooo Ginaaaa!" but it would really show her new moto, her evil free new persona.

 

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Holy shit, I forgot all about that. The entire town's lives and/or the Charmings' lives are on the line...THIS would be the kind of situation where Regina should step up and say "Hey Emma, time to make good on your promise". But no, nothing about that ever comes up in the episode. WTF?

 

When Dark Hook (who was forced to become a monster against his free will) was about to send Storybrooke to the Underworld, it was all he needs to be destroyed! No other options! And then Good Hook took responsibility for Evil Hook's actions and he sacrificed himself for the good of the many. But when the Evil Queen threatens to kill the entire town, Good Regina doesn't even offer to sacrifice herself because of something Evil Regina was doing. Why even bother to have that scene with Regina and Emma at the docks if it wasn't going to be brought up again? It makes Regina look like all talk and no action. "If it comes down to it, you need to destroy me, Emma. Promise." (48 hours later...) "Actually, don't destroy me. Let your parents sacrifice their hearts to my id instead and see how it goes." 

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Yeah, they're talking like it's their old nemesis from back in the day, or maybe Regina's evil twin. No one seems to remember that this is the same person, that everything they're seeing in the Evil Queen now has been a part of Regina all along, up to the split. No one's turning to her and saying, "Seriously, Regina? Is this how you've felt about us all along?" She's not cringing at seeing her worst inner self played out and apologizing or explaining, no, "I'm sorry, I'd really pushed those feelings down deep, but I didn't realize how strong they still were" or "That's not really the way I felt about you. I don't know where this is coming from."

 

This is what I was hoping for when they introduced this duel Regina arc, but they're unfortunately putting all their marbles on two separate characters. Once again, it's the easy way out instead of actually having Regina face criticism from her closest friends. The writers claim the show is boring if the main characters aren't facing obstacles, so they make Hook lie about the shears or have Charming lie about his quest to find the person who killed his father, but they refuse to address the obvious drama they've naturally set up. Instead of Regina having to explain her complicated feelings about the Charmings and apologize for the id part of her who still wants to destroy them, it's summed up in one sarcastic line where Regina scoffs at the idea of telling the Charmings about every moment she wanted to kill them. Instead of having to apologize to the town for her id causing chaos, she doesn't take any responsibility for what her other half does. Sure, she'll help Team Hero create potions or whatever, but she hasn't yet had to apologize for what her inner id thinks and does. 

The whole point of the Jekyll/Hyde episode was to show how they were the same person and that the "good" Jekyll could still do evil and that "bad" Hyde wasn't entirely bad, but it's like the writers have completely forgotten that episode happened and Regina gets a free pass while the Evil Queen can do whatever evil she wants. 

Edited November 8, 2016 by Curio

[CCTC]

7 hours ago, Euri said:

So many lovely, lovely moments between Charming and Snow this episode.  They are the reason I fell for the show so having that was beautiful and much appreciated.  I couldn't see the point of the sapling though.  

Season 1 was the best season mainly because of better writing, balanced use of the cast, plotting etc., but they did luck out with Josh and Ginny have the right connection to drive the Snow and Charming relationship which was integral to that season and one of the reasons it worked as well as it did.  

One nice thing about the new curse, Snow and Charming will have to have individual scenes with different people and will not simply be trotted out as one unit - a conjoined couple who are treated as one person by the writers.