S01.E10: Gloriana

[staveDarsky]

deleted and moved to history discussion.

 

Edited November 22, 2016 by staveDarsky

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Queen Puts Duty Before Family As The The Crown's First Season Closes

Elizabeth has to make some tough calls in the tense season finale.

[jhlipton]

On 11/5/2016 at 11:31 AM, Arynm said:

I believe she does marry, but it didn't go well and she eventually divorced.

I can't help feeling that a major part of the attraction was the forbidden aspect of it.  Margaret loved Townsend as long as she couldn't have him/

On 11/5/2016 at 5:30 PM, millk said:

The current tabloid declared love of Harry's life is divorced and it is still eyebrow raising in royal watching circles in 2016.

She is divorced, not royal (I think) and bi-racial.  Any one of those would get the tabloids racing.  The trifecta has them ecstatic.

[Humbugged]

On 11/24/2016 at 4:08 AM, jhlipton said:

I can't help feeling that a major part of the attraction was the forbidden aspect of it.  Margaret loved Townsend as long as she couldn't have him/

She is divorced, not royal (I think) and bi-racial.  Any one of those would get the tabloids racing.  The trifecta has them ecstatic.

And a Catholic .And an actress who has got semi naked on screen which the papers have been really ,really keen to show stills of

[dubbel zout]

58 minutes ago, Humbugged said:

an actress who has got semi naked on screen

Pfft. Koo Stark broke that barrier decades ago when she dated Prince Andrew.

Edited November 25, 2016 by dubbel zout

[jhlipton]

On 11/25/2016 at 1:18 PM, dubbel zout said:

Pfft. Koo Stark broke that barrier decades ago when she dated Prince Andrew.

Yes, but they're British and will always be astir at any show of flesh.

[formerlyfreedom]

Folks a reminder - this is to discuss the episode, and not the love lives of various other royals. That happens elsewhere in the forum. Thanks.

[Paws]

When Peter left the party early to go to bed I thought it would be Margaret realizing how old he was. we were making jokes about it, how when she comes in the room he'd be like, "no really, I'm tired! I have a 7 am meeting!"

 

anyhow, I can't help but think that Claire Foy will play DIana in the later parts of the series. She's probably not tall enough but.... those huge blue eyes!

[ciprus]

I get that it might not have been that easy for Philip in those days, but he's being such an utter asshole about everything - all the time. His wounded male pride is agony to watch, what a whiner! I keep dreaming QE will kick him to the curb, but alas... He takes everything as an affront like a spoiled teenager. I didn't get the impression that QE wanted him to go to Australia to be rid of him - more like giving him a purpose and be the centre of attention but he is just never satisfied. I liked what the QM said to him, I wish she had been even harder on him although it wouldn't have done much good. His only good quality is that he seems to be an engaged father, at least for his time and class.

This season was amazing, so well written and well cast, but I feel kind of bad that many of the people on the show are still alive and that it will move closer to our time, too. But who am I kidding, I'll be watching. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by ciprus

[VCRTracking]

This commercial parody from last night's SNL, "Fisher Price's Wells for Sensitive Little Boys" made me think of little Charles in the series. Emma Stone's mom character is like the Queen Mother.

Edited December 4, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Crs97]

Good God, woman, stop making promises you aren't sure you can keep!!

[Cirien]

21 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Good God, woman, stop making promises you aren't sure you can keep!!

(I'm guessing this is about Elizabeth and the whole Peter/Margaret situation?)

The things is she was going to keep them. The Cabinet and PM were literally drawing up a way to allow Margaret to marry Peter ( and keep all the perks) It was Margaret who was having second thoughts about the whole thing, (and Townsend later said that even if they had married, he wasn't sure the marriage would survive- and in the end Peter himself would become a source of resentment to Margaret. ) I don't know why they changed it for the show

[Crs97]

My comment was a little tongue-in-cheek, especially knowing how the writers changed history for drama's sake (or kept the prevailing opinion of the time, even though evidence shows now that Margaret changed her mind but threw Elizabeth under the bus to remain sympathetic to the public).

 This series has been driving me crazy, as much as I love it, because they keep showing Elizabeth promise to take care of something only later to find she can't.  Now, as soon as she says absolutely, hubby and I groan!

[dubbel zout]

23 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

they keep showing Elizabeth promise to take care of something only later to find she can't.

That's by design, I'm sure, to show how for better or worse, nearly everything in Elizabeth's life is wrapped up in the Crown.

[CeeBeeGee]

On 11/14/2016 at 8:59 AM, dubbel zout said:

Royal tangent: Catherine Oxenberg (erstwhile Dynasty actress) is Elizabeth of Yugoslavia's daughter. She also played Lady Di in one of those delectably horrible movies that came out soon after Charles and Diana were married. 

I thought the Princess Alexandra that Philip was supposed to have had an affair with was Alexandra of Kent, the queen's cousin? (Through her father's brother George of Kent, who died in a plane crash during the war.)

He was also rumored to have had an affair with Penelope Romsey, who was married to one of Mountbatten's grandsons. 

I wouldn't be surprised to learn Philip had dallied, but I doubt he could be too active. His calendar became increasingly full as the years went on.

I fondly remember Catherine Oxenberg in Charles and Diana: A Royal Romance (a highly edited and romanticized version of how things actually went) which is on YouTube. Ah, back in the day when we failed to realize the significance of Charles's caddish "whatever in love means..." She/they also made a sequel called (I think) Unhappily Ever After.

Yes, I too have heard the rumors of Philip and Prince Alexandra of Kent. If you want other rumors read Kitty Kelley's The Royals, which is incredibly salacious and frankly rather mean-spirited.

On 11/18/2016 at 2:47 AM, Bec said:

I was kind of hoping the show would make use of this letter: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/6520837/Princess-Margaret-recently-unearthed-letter-sheds-new-light-on-decision-not-to-marry.html

That puts the whole thing in a different light. She decided for herself she didn't want to marry him and used the duty of the crown as an excuse to avoid looking like a fickle fool.

I believe that Margaret and Townsend really did love each other--and continued to do so, even after they had renounced each other.

Spoiler

Margaret accepted the proposal of Antony Armstrong-Jones a day after learning that Townsend had married again. And if you google pictures of Townsend with his new wife, she was a dead ringer for Margaret. I find their whole story very sad.. 

[hippielamb]

On 12/2/2016 at 0:26 PM, ciprus said:

I get that it might not have been that easy for Philip in those days, but he's being such an utter asshole about everything - all the time. His wounded male pride is agony to watch, what a whiner! I keep dreaming QE will kick him to the curb, but alas... He takes everything as an affront like a spoiled teenager. I didn't get the impression that QE wanted him to go to Australia to be rid of him - more like giving him a purpose and be the centre of attention but he is just never satisfied. I liked what the QM said to him, I wish she had been even harder on him although it wouldn't have done much good. His only good quality is that he seems to be an engaged father, at least for his time and class.

I did too, though I've always been partial to the Queen Mum. I loved that she gave him a piece of her mind without losing a step in the dance. 

Maybe it's easier to judge Phillip on his wounded male ego now, versus if this show aired in the fifties. Being upset that his children and Elizabeth don't have his name seems outdated in our time. I'm very annoyed with him but I have to remember he (and the whole drama of Margaret marrying a divorcee) are a product of their time. 

Great final scene of the Queen looking straight into the camera. I am tempted to rewatch the series to appreciate the journey she has taken from the first episode. 

[blackwing]

Late to the party, but I just finished watching the series.  It was fantastic.  A little slow at times and lacking in action, but the performances and the development of character were great.

At the start of the series, I found myself truly disliking Philip.  I thought he was an ungrateful ass.  It's not like he didn't know his wife was going to be the future Queen of England one day when he married her.  I thought he already should have been aware of his position and not complained so much.  But by the end of the series, I was surprised at how much I felt bad for him.  It must have been frustrating for him to not have any say at all in his life, and then here he was getting shipped off to Australia for months.

Re Margaret and Peter.  I don't think the show even attempted to explain why Margaret fell for Peter.  What was it about him that she liked?  The way the show acted, he was like a rock star.  Cameras following him everywhere and everyone hooting and hollering at him.  From my vantage point, he was old, dull, stuffy and plain.  Maybe the show should have cast a better looking and more appealing actor.  The show could at least have depicted (or made up for TV sake) Margaret meeting suitable matches and finding them lacking and telling us why she liked Peter.

On the one hand, I felt bad for her at being told what she couldn't do.  On the other hand, I felt like she didn't even try to advance her own case.  In those two years she could have done some research, talked to the right people, etc.  She didn't do anything.  I also thought that she should at least have tried to understand why her sister was being forced to do what she did.  I'm curious to see what kind of role Margaret plays in the next season.  The actress is stunning, reminds me of a young Elizabeth Taylor.

I'm curious about the depictions of other historical figures in this season.  1) Was Winston Churchill really that much of an ass?  2)  Was Anthony Eden really that much of a bumbling fool?  3) Was the Duke of Windsor really such a grade A jerk?  I loathed this character, and I hope he doesn't show up in season 2.  "I'm half a king and I need my money wah wah wah."  How about.... WORK?  Or get some of those adoring French fans to donate money to him so he can keep on throwing his lavish parties and be bitter?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, blackwing said:

But by the end of the series, I was surprised at how much I felt bad for him.  It must have been frustrating for him to not have any say at all in his life, and then here he was getting shipped off to Australia for months.

I was kind of jealous of Phillip's life.  I would love to travel the world first class like they did, being treated like royalty in all those sunny, exotic locales. 

[roamyn]

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:27 PM, blackwing said:

I'm curious about the depictions of other historical figures in this season.  1) Was Winston Churchill really that much of an ass?  2)  Was Anthony Eden really that much of a bumbling fool?  3) Was the Duke of Windsor really such a grade A jerk?  I loathed this character, and I hope he doesn't show up in season 2.  "I'm half a king and I need my money wah wah wah."  How about.... WORK?  Or get some of those adoring French fans to donate money to him so he can keep on throwing his lavish parties and be bitter?

1) He could be at times.  But he was a great friend & advisor, too.  He helped negotiate the separation and divorce of the Duchess of Marlbork, Consuelo Vanderbilt (a cousin by marriage.)  

He also would've handled Nassar 100x better.

2) Anthony Eden had a major medical issue, and became addicted to non-narcotic.

3) YES YES YES!

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 1:27 PM, blackwing said:

On the one hand, I felt bad for her at being told what she couldn't do.  On the other hand, I felt like she didn't even try to advance her own case.  In those two years she could have done some research, talked to the right people, etc.  She didn't do anything.  I also thought that she should at least have tried to understand why her sister was being forced to do what she did.  I'm curious to see what kind of role Margaret plays in the next season.  The actress is stunning, reminds me of a young Elizabeth Taylor.

 

I'm not sure why one would have expected Margaret to "do research."  Her sister, the Crown, told her that all Margaret needed to do was wait until her 25th birthday, then she could marry Townsend without any problems.  Margaret dutifully did this, a very difficult choice for a 23-year-old.  Then she had the rug pulled out from under her again. 

I really felt for Margaret.  She was a victim of her times.  Today her nephew, the heir to the throne, is married to a divorced woman, and it's no big deal.  Plus divorce is as common among the royals as it is in the general public.

[formerlyfreedom]

Episode discussion goes here. Off topic discussion has been and will be removed.

[OtterMommy]

The hubs and I finally reached the end of this season last night and I found this a heartbreaking episode.  I mean, I knew how things would end, but I still kept hoping that they would go WILDLY off-script.  My husband, who almost always sides with "the guy" in shows, was amazed at what a dick Philip was and kept asking if that was accurate (Yup).  I think the scene that really put him off Price Philip was the fishing scene, which I will admit hit me in the feels as well.

I never thought my action-loving hubs would get sucked into this show, but he has...and I think that is a testament to it!

[kwnyc]

Quote

I don't think the show even attempted to explain why Margaret fell for Peter.  What was it about him that she liked?  The way the show acted, he was like a rock star.

Well you know they didn't have rock stars in the early '50s. They had to make do with handsome, slightly tormented war heroes. ;-)

[dubbel zout]

^^This (hee), and I think Townsend was one of the first people to appreciate Margaret for herself rather than her position. 

[Milburn Stone]

On 11/6/2016 at 0:31 PM, rubyred said:

...talk about being on the back foot.

I love that expression.

On 11/7/2016 at 7:15 AM, MissLucas said:

It's been a while since I tried to establish what had really happened as usual with any major Windsor family crisis there's plenty of conjecture, little hard fact plus contradictory interpretations (here's an example). It seems the show took some dramatic license here to fill in the gaps.

Hmmm. That's substantially different from the narrative in the show.

Edited to add: I now realize this has already been noted. But I'm still fighting the tendency to be a little disappointed that the show strayed so far from the facts that have been known for 13 years now. I'm fighting it because I want my love for the show to remain pure and chaste.

[Roseanna]

On 11/19/2016 at 8:40 PM, Thalia said:

And why didn't Margaret check?  It was her life.  I don't know if she was truly as passive in real life as shown here, but why was it up to her sister to know all the details?  If I'd been Margaret and really wanted to marry Peter Townsend, I'd have made damn sure I knew every clause of the Royal Marriage Act forward and backward.  She had two years, and since she was no longer allowed to visit coal mines, she had plenty of time on her hands. 

People in love can live in illusions. Probably Margaret and Townsend did.

On 11/29/2016 at 9:32 AM, Paws said:

When Peter left the party early to go to bed I thought it would be Margaret realizing how old he was. we were making jokes about it, how when she comes in the room he'd be like, "no really, I'm tired! I have a 7 am meeting!"

I think this scene was for the audience: to make us think that it wasn't at all sure that they would have been happy if allowed to marry.

It wasn't just Townsend's age. Their cahracters were different.

[Fireball]

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 0:51 PM, Milburn Stone said:

Hmmm. That's substantially different from the narrative in the show.

Edited to add: I now realize this has already been noted. But I'm still fighting the tendency to be a little disappointed that the show strayed so far from the facts that have been known for 13 years now. I'm fighting it because I want my love for the show to remain pure and chaste.

I'm also disappointed with how the show handled the whole Margaret and Townsend not getting engaged/ married. I understand why they went the route they did; it makes for better drama Elizabeth having to decide between her word and the 'Crown'. It also sets up the drama for next season:

Spoiler

Will Margaret forgive Elizabeth for breaking her word? Will Margaret ever love again? Will Margaret have a nervous breakdown without Townsend? Will Phillip forgive Elizabeth for what he views as a betrayal to Margaret?

 While I understand why they did what they did, I didn't like that they basically

Spoiler

made Margaret out to be the victim in the whole thing. When in reality she could have married Townsend if she wanted.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Fireball

[Fireball]

On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 0:27 PM, blackwing said:

At the start of the series, I found myself truly disliking Philip.  I thought he was an ungrateful ass.  It's not like he didn't know his wife was going to be the future Queen of England one day when he married her.  I thought he already should have been aware of his position and not complained so much.  But by the end of the series, I was surprised at how much I felt bad for him.  It must have been frustrating for him to not have any say at all in his life, and then here he was getting shipped off to Australia for months.

See I was the opposite at the start of the series I was a little more empathetic towards him. It's one thing to know once your wife becomes Queen you have to do XYZ; it's quite another to actually be in the positon were you can only do XYZ. However, by the end of the series I thought he was a horrible ass. This episode 2 years have gone by and he's still a whinny ass. My thought was in two years he couldn't come to terms with his position? I found myself thinking "Yes, I do hope you drown on your sea voyage". 

[humbleopinion]

Binged the series and the cinematography, costuming were eye popping.

Enjoyed the cast tremendously, liked seeing the tried and true Brit actors we know from other ensembles doing what they do best...period pieces.

Actors portraying these characters were first rate with eyes welling with tears:

Winston Churchill

Queen Mary

Princess Maragret

Lady Churchill

Queen Elizabeth

Too bad every binge isn't as satisfying as The Crown.

[westwingnut]

On 2/23/2017 at 11:51 AM, Milburn Stone said:

But I'm still fighting the tendency to be a little disappointed that the show strayed so far from the facts that have been known for 13 years now. I'm fighting it because I want my love for the show to remain pure and chaste.

My first post for this show. I really enjoyed watching the first season and look forward to watching the next five.  

That said, I have come to realize that what we are watching is better thought of as historical fiction rather than docudrama.  If there is evidence out there that the dynamics between Elizabeth and Margaret depicted in this episode happened in real life, I am not aware of it.  In order to enjoy this show, I will have to lower my expectations of historical accuracy and just tell myself that that it's a TV show that is loosely based on real life people. 

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, westwingnut said:

I have come to realize that what we are watching is better thought of as historical fiction rather than docudrama.  If there is evidence out there that the dynamics between Elizabeth and Margaret depicted in this episode happened in real life, I am not aware of it.  In order to enjoy this show, I will have to lower my expectations of historical accuracy and just tell myself that that it's a TV show that is loosely based on real life people. 

Kind of like Feud. :)

[Spotlight]

Just finished binge watching all ten episodes in one day. When will season two be made available? I need more.

[humbleopinion]

You need to come down from that binge high of excellent TV....

I suggest The Durrells of Corfu...to bring you back slowly so you don't get the bends....

[TV Anonymous]

Did the Queen or the Royal Family not have in-house counsel? I find it amazing that the Queen did not care to fully understand the Royal Marriages Act before she made the promise to her sister. I would think that somebody in such high profile as her would have had retained an attorney for her legal affairs and to provide legal advice before she can say or do anything. And considering that the Government and her own Household may not be always forthcoming, she should have had somebody to represent her own interests.

I am not very clear why PM Eden refused to speak Arabic with Gamal Abdul Nasser? Eden spoke good Arabic as shown before. Speaking Arabic was the least he could have done to relax an already tense relationship.

[doodlebug]

6 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

Did the Queen or the Royal Family not have in-house counsel? I find it amazing that the Queen did not care to fully understand the Royal Marriages Act before she made the promise to her sister. I would think that somebody in such high profile as her would have had retained an attorney for her legal affairs and to provide legal advice before she can say or do anything. And considering that the Government and her own Household may not be always forthcoming, she should have had somebody to represent her own interests.

I am not very clear why PM Eden refused to speak Arabic with Gamal Abdul Nasser? Eden spoke good Arabic as shown before. Speaking Arabic was the least he could have done to relax an already tense relationship.

The show took dramatic license with the story of Princess Margaret.  In fact, Elizabeth, with the aid of her prime minister, did find a way for Margaret to marry Townsend.  However, Margaret's feelings for him had faded and she no longer wanted  marriage. The show used the 'star crossed lovers' trope because TPTB apparently thought it was a better story.

[jadecorleone]

On 8/16/2017 at 4:26 AM, doodlebug said:

The show took dramatic license with the story of Princess Margaret.  In fact, Elizabeth, with the aid of her prime minister, did find a way for Margaret to marry Townsend.  However, Margaret's feelings for him had faded and she no longer wanted  marriage. The show used the 'star crossed lovers' trope because TPTB apparently thought it was a better story.

After finishing the series, I dug more into what could have really happened. After reading the articles and thinking it over, at the end of the day I think that Margaret loved her position more than she loved Townsend. And that despite any love between them, they were such opposites in many ways that Im not sure they would have worked out.  Sadly love and compatability are not the same.

[PinkRibbons]

What was the way Elizabeth found for Margaret to Have it All?

What bothers me in the show is how Elizabeth tells Margaret she has a choice between Peter or her position, but at the end it's treated like there was no choice at all, and that it was all somehow Elizabeth's fault. It's like they forgot about the part where Margaret could have married Peter at the expense of her title.

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, PinkRibbons said:

What was the way Elizabeth found for Margaret to Have it All?

What bothers me in the show is how Elizabeth tells Margaret she has a choice between Peter or her position, but at the end it's treated like there was no choice at all, and that it was all somehow Elizabeth's fault. It's like they forgot about the part where Margaret could have married Peter at the expense of her title.

Here is a letter Margaret wrote to the Prime Minister in which she expresses doubts about her relationship and makes it clear she will be making the decision.  As far as 'having it all', I don't think Margaret was willing to sacrifice ANYTHING at all to be with him; Princess Margaret was pretty well known to have thoroughly enjoyed all the perks of being a princess while avoiding many of the duties that the rest of the family took on in her stead.  It is also makes clear that the Prime Minister and Elizabeth worked out a way for her to keep her title as well as her income from the civil list and Margaret knew that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/6520837/Princess-Margaret-recently-unearthed-letter-sheds-new-light-on-decision-not-to-marry.html

[Clanstarling]

30 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Here is a letter Margaret wrote to the Prime Minister in which she expresses doubts about her relationship and makes it clear she will be making the decision.  As far as 'having it all', I don't think Margaret was willing to sacrifice ANYTHING at all to be with him; Princess Margaret was pretty well known to have thoroughly enjoyed all the perks of being a princess while avoiding many of the duties that the rest of the family took on in her stead.  It is also makes clear that the Prime Minister and Elizabeth worked out a way for her to keep her title as well as her income from the civil list and Margaret knew that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/6520837/Princess-Margaret-recently-unearthed-letter-sheds-new-light-on-decision-not-to-marry.html

Thanks for the link. That was very illuminating. What a win for her. She had an easy excuse to dump someone who had probably started to bore her, and the opportunity to brand herself as the tragic Princess who was forced to give up the love of her life. 

Edited August 26, 2017 by Clanstarling

[thuganomics85]

So, when it is all said in done, Elizabeth picks duty and being the queen over family and being a sister.  Can't say I'm surprise though, and as hard as it was to watch, I can't fully blame her since it really seemed impossible for her to do anything, when she's pretty much go everyone against her.  The Cabinet, the church, even the Queen Mother seemed to be getting in on it with her using Tommy to screw things up (damn you, Tommy!  You're such a slimy bastard, but I can't get enough of you!  May Pip Torrens and his badass moustache keep finding ways to show up in future season.)  Still, that scene was brutal, but great to watch.  Both actresses were on fire: Vanessa Kirby really made me feel for Margaret despite her obnoxiousness, while Claire Foy made Elizabeth look like her normal, regal self, but I can see in her eyes and brief facial movements that it was killing her to do this to her sister.  Well done to both of them.

That said, seriously, Elizabeth.  For now on, never give your word.  Any time someone asks you to promise something, just say "Give me a few days.  I want to say yes, but let me make sure there isn't some fancy, hidden rule that is suddenly going to magically appear and I have to do a 180.  It ain't easy being queen!" 

I understand the idea of sending Philip off to get his shit together, although considering what a putz he's been, I'd be kind of afraid to send him to a continent where almost every animal could kill you.  Wait a minute.....

Churchill was right: Anthony already seems to be regretting being PM.

I watch way too many dark shows, because every time someone brought up Pete's ex still being alive and how it was an issue, I kept waiting for someone to just say "Why not kill her?"  Frankly, I'm almost surprised Tommy didn't do that episodes ago, in order to save everyone from the grief and drama.  I wouldn't put anything past him!

Glad we got a final Bertie/George scene.  I enjoy most of the characters here and the upcoming stories, but I certainly wouldn't be against a prequel, that focuses on George and David, the advocation, and Jared Harris and Alex Jennings being awesome together.  And then they could just go ahead and flat-out remake The King's Speech with Jared Harris.  I'm just saying, you can't have too much Jared Harris!  He truly is spectacular in his few scenes.

Really enjoyed the show and I'm glad I gave it shot.  Can't wait till the next season and I'm curious to see how it will fare at the Emmys this summer.  I suspect Claire Foy and the show will have a hard time against Elizabeth Moss and The Handmaiden's Tale (or This is Us), but I wouldn't be surprised if John Lithgow nabs a trophy.

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

So, when it is all said in done, Elizabeth picks duty and being the queen over family and being a sister.  Can't say I'm surprise though, and as hard as it was to watch, I can't fully blame her since it really seemed impossible for her to do anything, when she's pretty much go everyone against her.  The Cabinet, the church, even the Queen Mother seemed to be getting in on it with her using Tommy to screw things up (damn you, Tommy!  You're such a slimy bastard, but I can't get enough of you!  May Pip Torrens and his badass moustache keep finding ways to show up in future season.)  Still, that scene was brutal, but great to watch.  Both actresses were on fire: Vanessa Kirby really made me feel for Margaret despite her obnoxiousness, while Claire Foy made Elizabeth look like her normal, regal self, but I can see in her eyes and brief facial movements that it was killing her to do this to her sister.  Well done to both of them.

That said, seriously, Elizabeth.  For now on, never give your word.  Any time someone asks you to promise something, just say "Give me a few days.  I want to say yes, but let me make sure there isn't some fancy, hidden rule that is suddenly going to magically appear and I have to do a 180.  It ain't easy being queen!" 

I understand the idea of sending Philip off to get his shit together, although considering what a putz he's been, I'd be kind of afraid to send him to a continent where almost every animal could kill you.  Wait a minute.....

Churchill was right: Anthony already seems to be regretting being PM.

I watch way too many dark shows, because every time someone brought up Pete's ex still being alive and how it was an issue, I kept waiting for someone to just say "Why not kill her?"  Frankly, I'm almost surprised Tommy didn't do that episodes ago, in order to save everyone from the grief and drama.  I wouldn't put anything past him!

Glad we got a final Bertie/George scene.  I enjoy most of the characters here and the upcoming stories, but I certainly wouldn't be against a prequel, that focuses on George and David, the advocation, and Jared Harris and Alex Jennings being awesome together.  And then they could just go ahead and flat-out remake The King's Speech with Jared Harris.  I'm just saying, you can't have too much Jared Harris!  He truly is spectacular in his few scenes.

Really enjoyed the show and I'm glad I gave it shot.  Can't wait till the next season and I'm curious to see how it will fare at the Emmys this summer.  I suspect Claire Foy and the show will have a hard time against Elizabeth Moss and The Handmaiden's Tale (or This is Us), but I wouldn't be surprised if John Lithgow nabs a trophy.

Yes, Elizabeth really needs to stop giving her word. A simple I'll see or I'll get back to you in a few days. A prequel would be good to watch too. They have so much to work with Jared Harris and Alex Jennings did such an awesome job it would be a fun watch. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎6‎.‎11‎.‎2016 at 8:31 PM, rubyred said:

I've been waiting for more on Margaret, hoping that it would show a side of her that kind of redeems her in my eyes. To me she's always been a younger, brattier version of the Duke of Windsor, wanting her cake, but without any self-awareness of her value as a human being, not just her status because of an accident of birth. She claimed she could have lived without the money, title etc -- don't buy it, sweetheart. I believe she loved Peter Townsend but never really had anything denied her before and I think part of the whole thing was glorying in her self-created drama.

I think Margaret was shown very childish and egocentric. As her uncle had to give up the crown because he wanted to marry a divorcee, she should have known that if she wanted to do the same, she should also be ready to pay the prize.  

On ‎13‎.‎1‎.‎2017 at 9:27 PM, blackwing said:

Re Margaret and Peter.  I don't think the show even attempted to explain why Margaret fell for Peter.  What was it about him that she liked?  The way the show acted, he was like a rock star.  Cameras following him everywhere and everyone hooting and hollering at him.  From my vantage point, he was old, dull, stuffy and plain.  Maybe the show should have cast a better looking and more appealing actor.  The show could at least have depicted (or made up for TV sake) Margaret meeting suitable matches and finding them lacking and telling us why she liked Peter.

That was indeed a weak point, although Elizabeth spoke about Peter as a handsome war-hero and Margaret tells in this episode that Peter is the only one who can calm her nerves. But on the basis of what we are shown, their realationship is before all erotical (f.ex. his hand in her lap). 

Margaret's selfisness is clear from the beginning when she prevented him to spend even Christmas with his wife. Philip correctly is ironical when Peter is called "an innovent party in divorce".   

Irl they evidently became close after the king died and Margaret's life changed completely.  Townsend also tells in his memoirs that Margaret was interested in spiritual matters that she couldn't speak only with him. 
 

On ‎26‎.‎8‎.‎2017 at 6:02 PM, PinkRibbons said:

What was the way Elizabeth found for Margaret to Have it All?

What bothers me in the show is how Elizabeth tells Margaret she has a choice between Peter or her position, but at the end it's treated like there was no choice at all, and that it was all somehow Elizabeth's fault. It's like they forgot about the part where Margaret could have married Peter at the expense of her title.

This.

Also, I find it rather odd that after abdication of his brother George V made his young daughters that they would never put anything before the other one, rather than that they would never put anything before the crown and their country.

In any case, even the promise made in the show seemed to bind only Elizabeth. Margaret always put her own happiness first, no matter what it would cost her sister.   

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One thing that struck me while watching this episode was Eden and Elizabeth talking about how the country and morality were changing (re: the possibility of Margaret marrying Townsend) and how much things HAVE changed. Elizabeth saw her uncle give up the crown so he could marry Wallis. She saw her sister faced with a similar dilemma for the exact same reason (wanting to marry someone who was divorced).

Fast forward a few decades and look at what happened with her four children: Charles divorced Diana and married Camilla (who was also divorced), Anne divorced Mark Phillips and married Timothy Laurence, and Andrew divorced Fergie. Edward was the only one who managed to avoid divorce at all. And now Elizabeth's grandson Harry is engaged to a divorced American actress! I wonder if when Elizabeth was dealing with Margaret and Townsend she ever imagined that later in her own lifetime, a royal marrying someone who had previously been divorced would be no big deal. It probably would have saved her a lot of headaches. I loved that on the show, Elizabeth pointed out to the prime minister that four members of cabinet (including the PM himself) were divorced. Apparently they had the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality. It's okay for the PM to be divorced, but a princess who, in all likelihood would not become queen? Heaven forbid!

Although the show chose not to use the letter Margaret wrote to Eden as part of the plot, I'm glad that they at least showed him going to bed while she was still dancing at the party to illustrate the growing gulf between them (although dude, he was only 41 so should he really be tired that early in the night?). I also thought there was a lot of truth when she admitted to Philip that it's easy to be in love with someone who isn't actually around.

It's still hard for me to feel sorry for Philip because duh, he CHOSE to marry Elizabeth knowing that short of her dying before her father, she would become queen and he would have all of these royal duties to perform. It seems she can't win with him. No matter what opportunities she offers to him, he's never happy. It's never good enough for him. He always has something to complain about. Meanwhile she's carrying on with a very full schedule of boring meetings and appearances without a word of complaint, which just makes him seem like an even bigger whiner in comparison.

I had to laugh at the fact that Tommy is retired yet he's still pulling the strings from behind the scenes. What would they do without his puppetmastering?

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

One thing that struck me while watching this episode was Eden and Elizabeth talking about how the country and morality were changing (re: the possibility of Margaret marrying Townsend) and how much things HAVE changed. Elizabeth saw her uncle give up the crown so he could marry Wallis. She saw her sister faced with a similar dilemma for the exact same reason (wanting to marry someone who was divorced).

Fast forward a few decades and look at what happened with her four children: Charles divorced Diana and married Camilla (who was also divorced), Anne divorced Mark Phillips and married Timothy Laurence, and Andrew divorced Fergie. Edward was the only one who managed to avoid divorce at all. And now Elizabeth's grandson Harry is engaged to a divorced American actress! I wonder if when Elizabeth was dealing with Margaret and Townsend she ever imagined that later in her own lifetime, a royal marrying someone who had previously been divorced would be no big deal. It probably would have saved her a lot of headaches. I loved that on the show, Elizabeth pointed out to the prime minister that four members of cabinet (including the PM himself) were divorced. Apparently they had the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality. It's okay for the PM to be divorced, but a princess who, in all likelihood would not become queen? Heaven forbid!

I have personally nothing against divorce and remarriage but I think that one can't understand history if one can't see that people who had a different values had reasons for them, f.ex. one must put the duty before all else, or royals should show other people an example.       

Before all, the drama needs to put the characters in the position where they have to make difficult choices, not between good and bad, but between good or good (or between bad or bad).

I haven't much sympathy towards Margaret as she is presented in the show. She was spoilt by her father and believed that she had a right to have all without giving up anything.

I refuse to see her a victim - a victim can't choose. She had two options and made her choice but will evidently blame for ever others for her own choice.             

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Fast forward a few decades and look at what happened with her four children: Charles divorced Diana and married Camilla (who was also divorced), Anne divorced Mark Phillips and married Timothy Laurence, and Andrew divorced Fergie. Edward was the only one who managed to avoid divorce at all. And now Elizabeth's grandson Harry is engaged to a divorced American actress! I wonder if when Elizabeth was dealing with Margaret and Townsend she ever imagined that later in her own lifetime, a royal marrying someone who had previously been divorced would be no big deal. It probably would have saved her a lot of headaches. I loved that on the show, Elizabeth pointed out to the prime minister that four members of cabinet (including the PM himself) were divorced. Apparently they had the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality. It's okay for the PM to be divorced, but a princess who, in all likelihood would not become queen? Heaven forbid!

Yeah, but at the time Charles and Di's divorce was a pretty big deal. I don't pay that much attention to the current crop, it does seem like Harry's engagement is getting some blowback as well (though I don't know if it's because she's biracial or divorced). Though not from the royals themselves, so far as I can tell.

It's more a religious issue, specifically for the royals. 

Charles could not marry Camilla in church, because the Church of England forbids it when the divorced person's previous spouse is still alive (a nit picky point I find pretty amusing, but does have underpinnings that make sense within the context of the church). I haven't seen it stated clearly, but I think the assumption is that Charles gave up the throne to marry Camilla, just in a less dramatic fashion than his uncle. Prince William seems to the one tapped to take on the role. 

A royal in the line of succession is also in line to be Supreme Governor of the Church of England (previously Supreme Head). It would be inappropriate for the Head of the Church to be in a marriage that wasn't sanctified within the Church itself. Which would happen, as it did with Charles, if they are married outside of the Church. Even if there's an heir and a spare, unlikely to take the throne does not mean it could not happen. So the stricture applies to those in the line.

So a commoner getting a divorce really doesn't equate, at least by those rules. The rules may have lessened in some ways due to the abundance of Windsors in line for the throne. 

This is not to say I agree with the stance, but I'm neither religious nor royal. I do find it fascinating, though. Of course, the Windsors have a pretty deep bench these days, so they can afford to loosen up a little.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Rinaldo]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I loved that on the show, Elizabeth pointed out to the prime minister that four members of cabinet (including the PM himself) were divorced. Apparently they had the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality. It's okay for the PM to be divorced, but a princess who, in all likelihood would not become queen? Heaven forbid!

As @Clanstarling just pointed out so eloquently, the two situations would not have been seen as parallel at all. The PM and cabinet are not in line to represent the Church of England; a member of the royal family is.

[dubbel zout]

Princess Anne married Timothy Laurence in Scotland in a Church of Scotland (i.e., Presbyterian) church, so she skirted the rules a bit.

Edited December 3, 2017 by dubbel zout

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Princess Anne married Timothy Laurence in Scotland in a Church of Scotland (i.e., Presbyterian) church, so she skirted the rules a bit.

Which was the suggestion Elizabeth gives Margaret in the early stages, during the first push back, I think. 

[Roseanna]

Still one thing to which I paid attention when rewatching: the inactivity of Queen Mother.

Elizabeth notices early the looks between Margaret and Townsend and warns her sister: I understand why you like him, but he is married. Then after George VI has died, Lascelles tries Townsend not to accept a position in Queen Mother's household and warns him that relationships with royals and staff members (whose emergence he finds natural, because of intimacy) have no future. 

But Queen Mother doesn't do anything, although she plots with Lascalles even about smaller matters. And this matter would surely cause a great scandal. 

We are not even told whether she knows anything - although she must be blind not to know if the staff is gossiping and Lascelles normally told her all disturbing matters.  

Also in later stages, it's only Elizabeth and Philip Margaret tells her plans and asks for approval. Of course the matter van be decided only by the Queen  but simple courtesy would have demanded that Margaret would have informed also her mother and asked for her blessing. After that it's only Elizabeth who speaks with Margaret.

Irl Queen Mother of course knew, and I understand that in the show the focus is on Elizabeth.

Yet, also irl Queen Mother was inactive after the affair became public. Before that, she made a fateful decision to hire Townsend in her household where he and Margaret could easily meet.

Although I of course approve people's right to chose their spouse, I can't understand why Queen Mother didn't behave as her duty as a royal mother demanded at that time: to send Townsend away in the phase where the couple wasn't yet so close. or at least to speak earnestly to Margaret: "you remember Uncle David - do you really want to be like him?"

She probably thought that their relationship would flourish in its time and then die out in due course. And it's indeed true that if the romance is opposed, many couples only try harder to get together.

But it can also be that if Queen Mother had dared to cause her daughter little pain in the beginning, it would have spared Margaret of greater pain later.

[dubbel zout]

On 12/3/2017 at 5:16 PM, Clanstarling said:

On 12/3/2017 at 1:45 PM, dubbel zout said:

Princess Anne married Timothy Laurence in Scotland in a Church of Scotland (i.e., Presbyterian) church, so she skirted the rules a bit.

Which was the suggestion Elizabeth gives Margaret in the early stages, during the first push back, I think. 

I think you're right. I guess Margaret felt she wouldn't get the big flashy wedding she felt she deserved if she did that.

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

She probably thought that their relationship would flourish in its time and then die out in due course.

Isn't that what the Queen Mother said to someone? I know someone said that to someone, knowing full well the allure of forbidden fruit.

IMO, the biggest problem was Margaret wanted to have her cake and eat it too, and at that point in time, it simply wasn't going to happen. She had to make some sort of compromise, whether it be where she got married, her post-marriage title, etc., and she wouldn't.