S01.E05: Contrapasso

[snowwhyte]

I'm leaning toward the two timeline theory but with Logan as the MIB. He's dressed all in black, he has history with Delores, he's high up in a company looking to invest in Westworld hence future MIB being allowed free rein. There seem to be a lot of clues pointing toward it but obviously it could be too obvious and therefore a misdirect.

[Gobi]

I don't think the presence of Lawrence in Pariah proves there are two timelines. When W/D/L arrived in Pariah, they were told they had to wait until the next day to see El Lazo. Why? Well, if he was undergoing repairs after his blood donation, that would be a good reason. And if TMIB had not cut him loose, so to speak, W/D/L probably would have been given a story that he was out of town and they would have dealt with one of  his lieutenants.

Similarly, I don't think TMIB's threat to cut Ford open proves that Ford is a host. It could have just been a threat, idle or real, such as his earlier "Say another word and I'll slit your throat" at the campfire scene. TMIB knows what's inside a host, and he knows he won't get the answer he needs from cutting one open. The only time he did something like that was when he scalpped Kissy, and he seemed to know what he would find that time.

[Arnella]

Old Bob (?) who Ford was talking to in the basement seemed so familiar to me. I finally looked at the credits and it's Michael Wincott!  They can't be planning to waste him a part that could be played by an actual animatronic.   I am excited to see where that is going and I generally don't care where things are going (more interested in just seeing it unfold).

[Cerulean]

I think Delores's timeline is messed up if the MiB and William are the same person. How can she go from this awakening she's experiencing with William to being to someone like the first episode when the MiB was raiding her house. The MiB DID recognize her (and Teddy) but they would have had to scrub everything from her to get her back to that point. It would kill her journey. 

[Ottis]

8 hours ago, CofCinci said:

The further you are from the entrance, the more personal harm one can experience

Yes, but at what point does the violence against humans stop? Because that scene seemed to have no clear fail safe. That's my point. Someone else answered it is part of the past timeline, and so there were fewer safe guards. Still getting my head around that.

[themadman]

You know it's gratuitous nudity in #Westworld when as a straight man, you find yourself going, "OK, enough with the tits display!" 

[mrspidey]

I think it's perfectly possible for Lawrence to be both Lawrence and El Laszo. The character simply has a secret family in some remote village and he makes regular solo trips there to see them. On these trips there's a chance the authorities catch and attempt to hang him, which is where MiB found him. 

[Maximum Taco]

2 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

I think it's perfectly possible for Lawrence to be both Lawrence and El Laszo. The character simply has a secret family in some remote village and he makes regular solo trips there to see them. On these trips there's a chance the authorities catch and attempt to hang him, which is where MiB found him. 

Lawrence is El Lazo, when Lawrence and the MIB go to the prison in episode 4, the sheriff (warden?) says the deputy has in his custody "the most wanted man in 3 territories" a normal bandit would never be so wanted, Lawrence is the crime boss El Lazo when he's with the MIB the same as he is when he's with William. 

Lawrence being El Lazo doesn't do anything to confirm or deny the multiple timelines theory, IMO.

[mrspidey]

Yes, that's also a good point.

BTW...what was that strings piece that was playing during the orgy scene? It sounded familiar but I can't put my finger on it. 

[ACW]

39 minutes ago, Cerulean said:

I think Delores's timeline is messed up if the MiB and William are the same person. How can she go from this awakening she's experiencing with William to being to someone like the first episode when the MiB was raiding her house. The MiB DID recognize her (and Teddy) but they would have had to scrub everything from her to get her back to that point. It would kill her journey. 

I think it just put her journey on hold for 30 years.  It's plausible that when we see her without William, we're seeing present-Dolores retrace her journey.

[Maximum Taco]

4 hours ago, Izeinwinter said:

The two time-line theory is that Dolores goes off-script with William and Logan at t-30. This all ends in tears, and either Logan or William dies, the other becoming the man in black as a result. This is the incident. 

Dolores gets wiped and returned to her loop for 30 years. After those thirty years, Dolores gets jolted by the update, and starts a solo run of the questline she did with William and Logan, retracing her steps. Hence digging up the gun, and also  why we sometimes cut to her alone in scenes where there should be far more people. They're glimpses of "present" day Dolores.

The thing with Bill.. Well, Ford says that the hosts started passing the turing test in months. There is *no* way Bill would ever pass, so he must have been deeply obsolete far before the park ever opened at all. A first prototype which never saw any action, as it were.  

The problem I have with this theory is there is no way the park would let Dolores get so far off her loop without a guest. We've seen before that if a host gets too far from where they should be without a guest they are designated a "stray" and someone is sent to collect them. We've seen this with Dolores too, in episode 4, a host tells her she's "missing" and will return her home, but relents when William tells the host she's with him.

This is why something is telling Dolores she "needs" William. Without him the park will flag her as a stray and return her home. I'm not sure what that says about her feelings for him.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[dmc]

I have really tried to give this show a chance but I don't think I like it. This episode was no exception. The first few episodes kept my hooked looking for answers because I don't find any of these people or their stories compelling but now...ehhh...

I still would like to know what is going on but that is my only interest in it.

[DarkRaichu]

25 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

The problem I have with this theory is there is no way the park would let Dolores get so far off her loop without a guest. We've seen before that if a host gets too far from where they should be without a guest they are designated a "stray" and someone is sent to collect them. We've seen this with Dolores too, in episode 4, a host tells her she's "missing" and will return her home, but relents when William tells the host she's with him.

Well, the new narrative Ford just inserted messed up the "regular" storylines so Control did not necessarily know if a behavior was abnormal or part of the new story.  So it could be the analyst at Control saw Dolores riding away from bandits from her home, reported the deviation to Ashley Stubbs (ep 3), but then let play out to see if that was part of Dolores' new storyline.  Dolores escaping the bandits was new deviation, as she usually ended up dead at the end of the night.

[Maximum Taco]

10 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Well, the new narrative Ford just inserted messed up the "regular" storylines so Control did not necessarily know if a behavior was abnormal or part of the new story.  So it could be the analyst at Control saw Dolores riding away from bandits from her home, reported the deviation to Ashley Stubbs (ep 3), but then let play out to see if that was part of Dolores' new storyline.  Dolores escaping the bandits was new deviation, as she usually ended up dead at the end of the night.

I still don't buy that they would just let it play out.

With the other stray Bernard sends Elsie to investigate with Ashley, he doesn't just say "Oh it's probably just Ford fucking with the narrative cycles. Ignore it."

Add into the fact that the other stray very nearly killed Elsie, and odd behaviour is going to be VERY closely monitored.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Izeinwinter]

Hmm. Bernard might be running interference. Or she picked up another guest. We haven't seen much of "present" Dolores. Could be running with Marti.

Or alternatively, they fail to stop her because of the mayhem Maeve is clearly about to bring about.

[DarkRaichu]

6 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I still don't buy that they would just let it play out.

With the other stray Bernard sends Elsie to investigate with Ashley, he doesn't just say "Oh it's probably just Ford fucking with the narrative cycles. Ignore it."

Add into the fact that the other stray very nearly killed Elsie, and odd behaviour is going to be VERY closely monitored.

That woodcutter stray was missing for 2 days before Bernard sent Elsie (ie. the cowboy camp was in a loop for 2 days because the woodcutter was missing and none of them was authorized to handle an ax).  Dolores was missing for less than 1 day as she escaped the bandit on the same night MiB was camping with snake-tatooed woman.

[Maximum Taco]

7 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

That woodcutter stray was missing for 2 days before Bernard sent Elsie (ie. the cowboy camp was in a loop for 2 days because the woodcutter was missing and none of them was authorized to handle an ax).  Dolores was missing for less than 1 day as she escaped the bandit on the same night MiB was camping with snake-tatooed woman.

And he wasn't noticed because he's part of an extended storyline that doesn't have them arrive in town every day.

This is unlike Dolores who is supposed to arrive in Sweetwater every single day.

[numbnut]

Quote

So did Felix accidentally turn Maeve back on when he was experimenting with the bird, or was Maeve "dying" as often as she was (which Felix himself noted) so that she could somehow do recon while lying in "sleep mode"?

She can still feel pain and would have felt the tech digging out a bullet. Maybe she woke up after that?

19 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Did anyone else catch that it was a masked Ford in the Day of the Dead festival who spoke the "dreamless sleep" phrase that made Delores pass out? It seemed rather random that he would be there, unless the town of Pariah is part of the new narrative that he is developing.

I think he was tracking Dolores after she went off-loop. I can also buy that he was tracking Teddy and the MiB to meet with them in the saloon, but I'm puzzled about why he can't find Wyatt. Maybe Ford knows where Wyatt is?

12 hours ago, mrspidey said:

BTW...what was that strings piece that was playing during the orgy scene? It sounded familiar but I can't put my finger on it. 

That was Nine Inch Nails' "Something I Can Never Have." The show is doing covers of all my faves.

Edited November 1, 2016 by numbnut
I pasted the wrong quote

[DarkRaichu]

13 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

This is unlike Dolores who is supposed to arrive in Sweetwater every single day.

How did anyone know that for sure after Ford added the new narrative?  Dolores escaping the bandits was a new deviation.  It seemed like when Dolores spent the day with Teddy, her ranch ended up attacked at night.  Since Teddy was taken out of her story progression thanks to the new Wyatt story, Dolores had nobody to defend her and should have ended up dead on her ranch.   

[SoothingDave]

I've suspected Dolores of being capable of deceit since her conversations with Bernard.  On at least 2 occasions, he asks "Have you told anyone about our conversations?" and she answers:

"You told me not to."

If you parse that, like a politician, that's not a "no," but it's an answer designed to make the listener think that you said "no."

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Westworld Forces Us To Ask, 'How Naked Is Too Naked?'

Maybe when the bits and bobs distract from the story?

[DarkRaichu]

Maybe I was reading too much into this, but when Ford said he and Dolores were not friends, I thought Ford purposely left Dolores in her ranch daughter role for 30+ years as punishment for her involvement in accident 30 years ago.  Her main purpose in the park was to be violated (emotionally and bodily) by the black hats at the end of the day, almost every day.

Other hosts had multiple roles throughout their years, ex: Abernathy was a sheriff and Meave was a rancher with a daughter.  Also, other older hosts were retired to the basement at the slightest hint of malfunctions.

Edited October 31, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[morgankobi]

6 hours ago, BooBear said:

 

• Something seems to be up with Ford but I can't see what it is. The start where Ford was down talking to the old bot about the gray hound had to mean something but I will be darned if I know what it is.  I don't see Ford as "bot" in the scene with MIB because Teddy jumped in to save Ford. We had previously been told the bots were programmed to do that for guests.  Even if Teddy jumped up after the scene like he was fine... I don't know how he could have been healed by Ford. That takes people / crew. 

They only need a crew to make Teddy look fine. He doesn't need blood to work and doesn't feel pain unless that feature is turned on. Unless some of his underlying structure has been damaged, all flesh-wounds (and pain and anguish) are cosmetic only. It seems Ford over-rode those so Teddy could help the MiB.

[arc]

3 hours ago, Cerulean said:

I think Delores's timeline is messed up if the MiB and William are the same person. How can she go from this awakening she's experiencing with William to being to someone like the first episode when the MiB was raiding her house. The MiB DID recognize her (and Teddy) but they would have had to scrub everything from her to get her back to that point. It would kill her journey. 

I saw your point elsewhere too, maybe in AV Club comments: the two timelines theory centers the show on William/TMIB. The one timeline theory centers the show on Dolores, Maeve, and the other hosts.

[DarkRaichu]

6 minutes ago, arc said:

I saw your point elsewhere too, maybe in AV Club comments: the two timelines theory centers the show on William/TMIB. The one timeline theory centers the show on Dolores, Maeve, and the other hosts.

Some people are intermingling the 2 timelines theory with William = MiB.   While the 2 timelines theory is most probable, MiB is almost definitely not William.  Heck, MiB could be someone we have not seen in the past / flashback yet.

[mrspidey]

1 hour ago, numbnut said:

That was Nine Inch Nails' "Something I Can Never Have." The show is doing covers of all my faves.

Thanks. I still don't know that song, though. But I do know the tune. Was it by any chance covered by anyone famous or used in a popular movie or tv show trailer?

Edit: Nevermind. Doing some research on the song revealed that it was used in Natural Born Killers. I guess that's where I know it from. 

Edited October 31, 2016 by mrspidey

[arjumand]

15 hours ago, PreviouslyTV said:

Maybe when the bits and bobs distract from the story?

View the full article

Quote

For me, this is the first time Westworld has felt cheap. The show's previous uses of nudity have been sparing enough that they often felt meaningful -- like when Maeve was naked while she tried to run away from the repairmen, thus underscoring her vulnerability and fear. This time, though, it seemed like an ocean of body parts was being poured out my screen. The show needs to dam that mess up, lest it become ludicrous.

100% this, for me. There was so much nudity, it actually detracted from the point of Dolores being naked again in her interview with Ford, when we're used to her being fully dressed when she talks to Bernard. To me, it showed how, as these 'interviews' are taking place in her head / some sort of Matrix space, she knows she has to be naked with Ford, so that he doesn't catch on that she knows something's up.

But it was lost in all the moaning, and writhing and boobies and dongs, bouncing and whimpers - I was actually getting second hand embarrassment from those scenes. And feeling bad for the actors.

14 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Yeah, I don't think he's been "altered" like Delores.

I don't know if that's what you meant, but I got kind of frustrated that Dolores didn't give him the trigger phrase "these violent delights have violent ends", like she did for Maeve. That's what woke Dolores and Maeve up. Maybe there's a plot related reason that Teddy needs to remain typical host for now.

Edited October 31, 2016 by arjumand

[Uncle JUICE]

I'm a big fan of this show, but this wasn't my favorite episode. One of the things I love about HBO shows, when they're good, is character depth. Cersei, for example, tremendous villain with complicated motives and great intellect. Contrast that to Ramsay Bolton, who's basically a cartoon character. This show's got one or two characters that fall into the latter category. Of course there's Logan, who I don't get at all at this point. He's like a douchebro Ramsay Bolton: he wants to be an asshole just because he can be an asshole. He's not on some adventure, he's literally looking at this like "I want to be the dickiest player in here, I want this to eb the Wild West version of running over pedestrians in GTA just because I can." As such, I don't understand his obsession / enjoyment (nor do I understand the fun factor of knowing there aren't any real stakes...why not 'reset' the guests if they get shot and killed, start them over at the beginning or various 'save points' for the duration of their stay? probably too complicated to manage the hosts like this now that I say it out loud, sorry). I like the idea that the game gets more difficult, that you're in more bodily danger but never MORTAL danger, the further out you go, but I'd appreciate a little more stakes.

The other character(s) are the techs, namely Felix, the Mythbuster tech, and Ricki Lake. The first guy, I need more explanation of that bird, but he's acting awful weird the whole time, but I'll give him a break. The Mythbuster tech is Loganesque: I could have guessed he's some VR banging ambitionless creep, why couldn't he just be a normal guy? Why not make him more identifiable by having him say "Listen, I'm going on lunch break, but if you get caught with that shit, don't bring me into it?" Why does he have to be all "know your place, I'm out, I gotta go fuck a hologram WOOT!" And don't get me started on how poorly and immaturely written Elsie's scene with Bart the black bartender was. This character is ten times more interesting if she's just whip smart and sarcastic and relentless...would this person really be talking about a robot's fake dick size at this point? How immune to features like this would she be by now? This character would be far more concerned with her inability to resolve his actual bartending programming than she would about his (ugh) "talents" going to waste. She shouldn't even notice it, it's a better comment on male nudity on screen that way.

And that orgy scene...sigh. Ok, I like watching hot people have sex as much as the next guy (full disclosure, married and hetero), but even I was like "wow, how did they avoid showing dicks at an orgy?" Some interesting stuff happened there, but did we need the orgy for any reason? I get that it sort of played a part in the double cross on the nitro glycerin, but I don't know, I think there's more effective ways to accomplish it. I could see needing the orgy, but at least make it realistic....every guest is either ab-sporting ripped or young beautiful woman? Or were they ALL hosts save Logan and William?

Ending was cool though with Maeve, and loved the Dolores stuff, and the scene between Ford and MiB. I still don't like William (Aiken / Slater), he's bland. And I hate, hate HATE when a douchey friend does that "soft talking while looking down at your shoulder when they're close to you" move. So tired.  

[Lemons]

15 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

 

So it's definitely two different timelines with MIB with Lawrence in one and Dolores, William and Lawrence/Alonzo in another.

I have a hard time understanding the two timelines.  What does that even mean?

[Uncle JUICE]

I think two timelines means that MiB and William / Dolores are not contemporaneous: one of them happens in the past, the other happens in the future. I hope this isn't the case, that's a little gimmicky and frankly, I like the idea that they repurpose Lawrence to play El Lazo for pragmatic purposes. 

Also, Dolores' purpose isn't JUST to get raped and abused by black hats. Her house provides basically level 1 adventure, the website says if you're trying to hunt up some bad guys, find Dolores and head out to Abernathy Ranch. Basically, it's the first hero mission. She's there to be rescued and indebted (the website is particularly gross about this aspect) to her hero. OR she's there to be raped. Not JUST there to be raped. I feel like a smiling icon here is out of place, I mean I said the word rape like five times in this post, I can't make a joke out of it. 

[DarkRaichu]

3 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Also, Dolores' purpose isn't JUST to get raped and abused by black hats. Her house provides basically level 1 adventure, the website says if you're trying to hunt up some bad guys, find Dolores and head out to Abernathy Ranch. Basically, it's the first hero mission. She's there to be rescued and indebted (the website is particularly gross about this aspect) to her hero. OR she's there to be raped. Not JUST there to be raped. I feel like a smiling icon here is out of place, I mean I said the word rape like five times in this post, I can't make a joke out of it. 

You are technically correct of course.  Although since the guests are more likely to return as black hats, it is most likely Dolores serves 1 purpose much more than the other.

[arc]

32 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I think two timelines means that MiB and William / Dolores are not contemporaneous: one of them happens in the past, the other happens in the future. I hope this isn't the case, that's a little gimmicky and frankly, I like the idea that they repurpose Lawrence to play El Lazo for pragmatic purposes.

He's not repurposed like that one host was pulled in to be the new Peter Abernathy, or how the old Peter Abernathy used to be "The Professor". Lawrence is El Lazo, and even re-introduces himself as Lawrence on the train after handing over his gun. It does make sense though, that either there's a duplicate in a far away part of the park, or that the same host was repaired and sent over to Pariah. He's a wanted man, makes sense that his criminal base is Pariah. And it makes sense that killing a host might be necessary for a narrative but if possible the park would fix him or her up and put them back in service so the park doesn't just get depopulated over the 28 days of narrative.

[Lamima]

some hosts, like Dolores, have a short continual loop where other hosts farther in the game have more complex lengthy loops, right? So Laurence isn't like Dolores. He has more of a longer story, over several days, maybe?????

[Uncle JUICE]

6 minutes ago, Lamima said:

some hosts, like Dolores, have a short continual loop where other hosts farther in the game have more complex lengthy loops, right? So Laurence isn't like Dolores. He has more of a longer story, over several days, maybe?????

The way I figure it is that all hosts have shorter 'daily' loops that might 'open' as they interact with guests. Like the guy who's selling a treasure hunt when William and Logan first arrive...I figure if they take him up on it, then his loop isn't available until they're done with it. Or maybe there's another similar character who takes that over the following day, something like that. And as it figures each guest is coded with some identifier (clothes, probably), each of the hosts knows that this is guest X, they are here for Y days, and therefore, we can go on THIS version of my adventure. 

[AlwaysWatching]

12 hours ago, phoenyx said:

You -definitely- must have been distracted by -something-, laugh :-). It was one of the more memorable scenes in the episode I think. The scene is about 52 minutes in. MiB pulls out his knife and brings it fairly close to Ford before saying:

MiB: "Well maybe, he left something behind. I wonder what I would find if I open you up..."

At which point, Teddy grabs MiB's hand holding the knife with one hand and the the knife itself with the other and buries it into the table.

And thanks to others who set me straight on this.  Wow, I don't usually miss that much when I'm watching a show.  I guess trying to watch a few minutes of Westworld then a few minutes of the World Series didn't work out all that well for me. Ha!  It really wasn''t the nudity, although I did find that a slight bit distracting.

I totally remember Teddy grabbing the knife at the table. I totally forgot exactly what MIB's threat was to Ford. I do remember now that I've been corrected and I realize I didn't think of Ford being a host because of that threat. I thought it was just MiB being MiB.

  I guess I was just remembering MiB's comments about opening up Teddy (in the past) and saying he was beautiful or perfect or something like that. He was complaining about them ruining what the Hosts used to be like before they made them more human like.  

So, I can honestly say that I don't have any idea of what's really going on in Westworld.  I had some crazy things in my head during the first few episodes, but they were really way out there.  I'll pay better attention from now on. Well, once I get past the World Series and this insane election.

[okerry]

3 hours ago, morgankobi said:

They only need a crew to make Teddy look fine. He doesn't need blood to work and doesn't feel pain unless that feature is turned on. Unless some of his underlying structure has been damaged, all flesh-wounds (and pain and anguish) are cosmetic only. It seems Ford over-rode those so Teddy could help the MiB.

Okay, somebody tell me if you noticed this too: At the end of the Ford/Teddy/MiB scene, Ford waves his finger and the player piano starts playing *very fast.* And Teddy abruptly stands up and seems to be moving very fast as well - as though Ford sped him up to get him moving, not necessarily "healing" him.

2 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Some people are intermingling the 2 timelines theory with William = MiB.   While the 2 timelines theory is most probable, MiB is almost definitely not William.  Heck, MiB could be someone we have not seen in the past / flashback yet.

I don't see two timelines *at all.* Never would have thought of it if I hadn't seen mention of it here. Logan & William are actually a lot more like the two dweebs who were the main characters in the original 1973 movie, and I think that's where they come from.

57 minutes ago, arc said:

He's not repurposed like that one host was pulled in to be the new Peter Abernathy, or how the old Peter Abernathy used to be "The Professor". Lawrence is El Lazo, and even re-introduces himself as Lawrence on the train after handing over his gun. It does make sense though, that either there's a duplicate in a far away part of the park, or that the same host was repaired and sent over to Pariah. He's a wanted man, makes sense that his criminal base is Pariah. And it makes sense that killing a host might be necessary for a narrative but if possible the park would fix him or her up and put them back in service so the park doesn't just get depopulated over the 28 days of narrative.

When MiB was cutting down the exsanguinated Lawrence and the little boy walked over, MiB told the boy to run along because "someone will be along for him soon" - meaning Lawrence, meaning he knew the techs would come up and collect him and patch him up and put him back in service as El Lazo - which is exactly what happened. 

I just think this thing is plenty complex without any need for double secret timelines - at least, I sure hope that's not what they're doing.

27 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

And as it figures each guest is coded with some identifier (clothes, probably), each of the hosts knows that this is guest X, they are here for Y days, and therefore, we can go on THIS version of my adventure. 

 . . . which would explain why the park provides guests with absolutely everything when they arrive, and guests bring nothing. The hostess who welcomed William showed him the clothes waiting for him and described it as "all bespoke," which I actually had to look up - "bespoke" means "something specially made to order for an individual, usually clothes." The hosts know the guests by their clothes - 

- which could be a problem at the orgy, lol. Dont' know how they handle that.

[bmoore4026]

We finally got some dick this episode!

https://goo.gl/images/VyyKAq

After overflowing with minge, we finally got some black sausage.

Also, Ed Harris better make out with James Marsden or I'm going to be very unhappy.

[DarkRaichu]

35 minutes ago, okerry said:

Okay, somebody tell me if you noticed this too: At the end of the Ford/Teddy/MiB scene, Ford waves his finger and the player piano starts playing *very fast.* And Teddy abruptly stands up and seems to be moving very fast as well - as though Ford sped him up to get him moving, not necessarily "healing" him.

Not very fast, he waved to turn on auto play mode. The music was slower when MiB entered because Ford was playing the piano and he played slower than auto play. 

Also, Ford tapped Teddy on the shoulder and Teddy revitalized

 

36 minutes ago, okerry said:

I don't see two timelines *at all.* Never would have thought of it if I hadn't seen mention of it here. Logan & William are actually a lot more like the two dweebs who were the main characters in the original 1973 movie, and I think that's where they come from.

Not trying to force my POV to anyone, if you did not see it then you did not see it ;)

Edited October 31, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[numbnut]

56 minutes ago, okerry said:

When MiB was cutting down the exsanguinated Lawrence and the little boy walked over, MiB told the boy to run along because "someone will be along for him soon" - meaning Lawrence, meaning he knew the techs would come up and collect him and patch him up and put him back in service as El Lazo - which is exactly what happened. 

I think the show is creating ambiguity -- it's a loophole so both Lawrence scenarios can be plausible (just like it can be more than a "coincidence" that Dolores would wander off and fall into William's arms).

If William marries into Logan's family and they invest to keep Westworld afloat, that fits the Wm=MiB scenario and the MiB's claim that he saved the company before Arnold could destroy it. It's unlikely that a business can be "hemorrhaging" money for 30 years.

[BooBear]

8 minutes ago, numbnut said:

I think the show is creating ambiguity -- it's a loophole so both Lawrence scenarios can be plausible (just like it can be more than a "coincidence" that Dolores would wander off and fall into William's arms).

One odd reason I think for believing the William is MIB is that Jimmi Simpson (sorry Jimmi) is not one of the better known actors and I was kind of surprised to hear him in such an A level work. So I thought something must have sold the casting and I presumed it was the believability of him being a young MIB.  Though I do think he has worked on previous Nolan shows. 

[Gobi]

33 minutes ago, numbnut said:

I think the show is creating ambiguity -- it's a loophole so both Lawrence scenarios can be plausible (just like it can be more than a "coincidence" that Dolores would wander off and fall into William's arms).

If William marries into Logan's family and they invest to keep Westworld afloat, that fits the Wm=MiB scenario and the MiB's claim that he saved the company before Arnold could destroy it. It's unlikely that a business can be "hemorrhaging" money for 30 years.

Since we don't know when the William/Logan story is taking place, we don't know how long the park has been hemorrhaging money.

[arc]

19 minutes ago, Gobi said:

Since we don't know when the William/Logan story is taking place, we don't know how long the park has been hemorrhaging money.

This trip is William's first trip to the park and TMIB has been coming here for over thirty years.

[Gobi]

15 minutes ago, arc said:

This trip is William's first trip to the park and TMIB has been coming here for over thirty years.

That seems to assume that William is TMIB. We don't know that yet. It hasn't been officially established yet that the William and TMIB's stories are not contemporaneous.

[arc]

True.

But ... what storytelling purpose would it serve to have two timelines if neither William or Logan is TMIB? Dolores awakened two or three times, once possibly with Arnold, the other two times years apart with William and TMIB?

I think the evidence argues more against than for a "William (or Logan) is TMIB" theory. And I can't see a reason for two timelines if neither of those two are TMIB.

[Gobi]

11 minutes ago, arc said:

True.

But ... what storytelling purpose would it serve to have two timelines if neither William or Logan is TMIB? Dolores awakened two or three times, once possibly with Arnold, the other two times years apart with William and TMIB?

I think the evidence argues more against than for a "William (or Logan) is TMIB" theory. And I can't see a reason for two timelines if neither of those two are TMIB.

To take a more prosaic approach, the reason for the two storylines could be due to accommodating actors' schedules. At this point, I'm still open to both contemporaneous and not.

[AuntiePam]

8 hours ago, dmc said:

I still would like to know what is going on but that is my only interest in it.
 

I'm just the opposite.  It makes my brain hurt trying to figure it out.  I'm enjoying it for the character development and for the actors  -- ERW, Hopkins, Harris, Newton, even Shannon Woodward, who I only know from Raising Hope.  If the show had Tommy Lee Jones, I'd be in heaven.

The plot has become so complicated, I don't trust that the writers will be able to tie it all together without some gaping holes.  Watching it for what's on the screen means I won't be pissed off when the pieces don't come together.

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, BooBear said:

One odd reason I think for believing the William is MIB is that Jimmi Simpson (sorry Jimmi) is not one of the better known actors and I was kind of surprised to hear him in such an A level work. So I thought something must have sold the casting and I presumed it was the believability of him being a young MIB.  Though I do think he has worked on previous Nolan shows. 

He had minor recurring role in Person of Interest

[AnnaMayWong]

I'm not sure about 2 time lines, however, in the Pariah scenes, the maimed, slaughtered... hosts do not bleed copiously like those in the onset prime town. So, somethin' is up...

[candall]

17 hours ago, SlipperyPete said:

 

There was some extremely noticeable ADR during Ford and the Gunslinger's conversation. It was when he says something like, "I'd need a shovel since the man I want to ask has been dead for 35 years." I'd love to know what they changed it from.

 

I googled "ADR" so I could see what you saw. 

82 options.  Adverse Drug Reaction?  Alternative Dispute Resolution?  American Depositary Receipt?

 

5 hours ago, arjumand said:

100% this, for me. There was so much nudity, it actually detracted from the point of Dolores being naked again in her interview with Ford, when we're used to her being fully dressed when she talks to Bernard. To me, it showed how, as these 'interviews' are taking place in her head / some sort of Matrix space, she knows she has to be naked with Ford, so that he doesn't catch on that she knows something's up.

But it was lost in all the moaning, and writhing and boobies and dongs, bouncing and whimpers - I was actually getting second hand embarrassment from those scenes. And feeling bad for the actors.

 

I'm kind of surprised at the recapper and others who are tsk-tsk'ing about the nudity.  You know when nudity loses its prurience factor?  When there's a lot of it.  Nudist community members don't associate it with sexuality.  On nude beaches, even the biggest gigglers and pointers don't need (tooo) much time to settle down and stop behaving like they're sure everyone's shown up conveniently pre-packaged for fucking.

So I think there's a lot of nudity in WW for the dual purpose of showing the desensitization of the working staff, and also to desensitize the viewers.  It's an adult drama about an adult fantasy vacation world--naturally there will be countless breasts out and about, as well as some group sex and penises.  Why represent otherwise?

 

With Delores, I think it was smart to have Ford interrogate naked Delores when Bernard hadn't.  Interesting that they've provided insight into two men who are basically probing the same issues, except now it's the clothing that's significant for being the more incongruous state.

[grawlix]

7 minutes ago, candall said:

I googled "ADR" so I could see what you saw. 

82 options.  Adverse Drug Reaction?  Alternative Dispute Resolution?  American Depositary Receipt?

I'm think slipperypete refers to "Automated" or "Automatic" Dialog Replacement.  Otherwise known as looping.