S07.E01: The Day Will Come When You Won't Be

[millennium]

I spent the last half hour reading some really perceptive, funny posts here.   I've come to the conclusion that we're too smart for this shit show.

[watch2much]

11 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I have to be honest and say I don't really quite understand the visceral hate and anger directed at this episode (& now Show, overall). 

I thought we all knew this show was more about the horrific levels that humanity has sunk to - by this stage of the game - and the walkers (zombies) are just there for the horror!gore fanatics.  I get that people hate Negan and want him dead ASAP, and that's fine, I feel the same way... but isn't this what we signed up for?  Watching just how depraved, sick, and vicious some humans devolve to in the midst of an apocalypse, whilst watching and wondering how the protagonists will survive and ultimately fight back??

Just stating an opinion, but the general sentiment seems overly extreme currently.   <YMMV>

I agree.  I was horrified by the episode.  But just as Rick and his crew have sunk to levels they never thought they were capable of, a psycopath like Neegan sunk even lower.  Why should his army revolt.  He has other groups bringing him stuff every week and they benefit from it.  I wondered why Abraham didn't go for his throat.  He knew the bat was going to be swung....

[AngelaHunter]

5 hours ago, kj4ever said:

So I'm not a doctor but Riddle Me This PTV...If someone gets hit hard enough to knock their eyeball out IRL wouldn't they be like unconscious? 

 

I give them a pass on this. I'm certainly no doctor either, but even a real doctor might not be able to predict accurately the immediate results of a sudden and traumatic brain injury. I would expect someone to be instantly unconscious too, but there are records of people with spikes and knives embedded in their skulls and brains who have walked into an ER and still talking. So who knows?

[lezlers]

Yeesh, I wasn't expecting so much hate on here.  You guys know this show is based on a comic, right?  The show can't veer too far away from the comic so they're fairly constrained with respect to plot lines.  It's not like the show runners just randomly decided to kill him off just to piss off viewers. 

I felt this episode served a specific purpose and served it well.  It's important to understand how and why Rick has turned from the hero we've always known him as to something completely different.  Was Neegan excessively talky talky?  Yeah.  But he's hardly the first villain with a penchant for monologues.  I thought the actor's ability to easily shift from happy, toothy "nice guy" to angry sinister villain was fantastic. 

This wasn't the whole season.  It was one episode setting up the season.  I think it's a bit dramatic to "wash your hands" of the show for.....following the comics it's based on. 

[Timetoread]

2 hours ago, Boofish said:

Yep. Because at that point they had nothing to lose and it was totally in character. These people are never quiet and docile. Same with Terminus - tied up, no advantage - still talks trash. 

Also Rick is an alpha male.  He is not capable of being submissive by nature.  If you take a litter of puppies and grab the alpha and try to hold him on his back (stomach exposed for a kill bite) he won't let you keep him like this.  He is a baby, newly born and far from the physical strength he will have as an adult but he cannot submit.  People need to forgive Rick's inability to do so.

[mandolin]

6 hours ago, Scribbles said:

 

Another note:

My problem with this episode the source material is not better than what they can do with a film adaptation and they chose too much of the source material.  Thus Negan was a blabber mouth and we got gore for gore's sake.  Usually the book is better than the movie/film.  With the surplus of comic book to film we have these days, we see the exceptions to that general rule of thumb more often.   The more the show follows Kirkman's follies and discards the opportunities it has, the less compelling it is for me.

I often have thought that when the show strays from the comic too much it suffers. See Beth and Grady Hospital. However, things that look a certain way in a black-and-white comic book panel do not always translate well to a TV screen nor should they.  The show got to this point differently enough than the comic that I do not think it worked as well storytelling wise. And I do not think they needed to show Glenn as they did. Torture porn is right.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.  

I do not have the connection with the show that I did in seasons 1, 2, and even 3. The last five or so minutes of the show grabbed me because that is what I care about. The rest of it… Seeing them all broken and beaten after that being about all we have seen for the last episode after episode. It's exhausting and not fun. I miss those days.

 Also, random, and my phone lost the other quote. It was Abraham and Isaac, not Solomon, in the Bible who was going to sacrifice his son. 

And, Timetoread, still loving your posts. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by mandolin

[Iguessnot]

5 minutes ago, lezlers said:

Yeesh, I wasn't expecting so much hate on here.  You guys know this show is based on a comic, right?  The show can't veer too far away from the comic so they're fairly constrained with respect to plot lines.  It's not like the show runners just randomly decided to kill him off just to piss off viewers. 

I felt this episode served a specific purpose and served it well.  It's important to understand how and why Rick has turned from the hero we've always known him as to something completely different.  Was Neegan excessively talky talky?  Yeah.  But he's hardly the first villain with a penchant for monologues.  I thought the actor's ability to easily shift from happy, toothy "nice guy" to angry sinister villain was fantastic. 

This wasn't the whole season.  It was one episode setting up the season.  I think it's a bit dramatic to "wash your hands" of the show for.....following the comics it's based on. 

My problem with the show was last season's Neegan build up over many episode for him to appear at the last minute. I asked the question here and was told that Neegan was not introduced that way in the comics. While comic readers were excited, non-readers felt continuous anvils.

Why couldn't Abe be bashed at the end of last season? I liked the guy and would have mourned his loss in between seasons. The clip of Rick saying I'm going to kill you could have been the cliffhanger. You think fans wouldn't want to see what Rick had up his sleeve? How Abe's death effects the group? The breaking of Rick would have been just as poignant and the bashing of Glenn would have been even more so.  The unnecessary way the story was split was not about storytelling. It was playing games and I think it backfired.

[Scribbles]

The show has had mega success when it veered off comic lines....Carol is alive and a hugely popular draw for the show......Daryl and Merle were never in the comics (have to wonder where this show would be at all without NR and MM.

. 

[Bad Example]

6 hours ago, valandsend said:

I felt the same way too, then remembered that they usually document their kills like this, as seen by the Polaroids tacked on the wall during the raid last season.

I remembered that, but it felt different that they're doing it to "us".  And put a perspective on the other pictures, it no longer felt like anonymous violence, those pictures could have been people as good as Glenn.  

[AngelaHunter]

24 minutes ago, mandolin said:

I often have thought that when the show strays from the comic too much it suffers. See Beth and Grady Hospital. However, things that look a certain way in a black-and-white comic book panel do not always translate well to a TV screen nor should they.  The show got to this point differently enough then the comic that I do not think it worked as well storytelling wise. And I do not think they needed to show Glenn as they did. Torture porn is right.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.  

 

I never read the comics, but from what I've heard, the show has no problem straying from them when it's what they want. (e.g. I was told in the comics that Rick hooked up with Andrea and that certainly was ignored in the show) I agree with you and have often said that comic books - unless about super heroes - don't always translate well to live action.

Glenn's death: Sponsors seem to frown on sex and the dreaded, taboo F-word, but heartily approve of torture porn and gore, so that's what we get. And BTW, considering this show's insane popularity, I have a problem thinking that TPTB have to totally bow to sponsors' every demand.

[lezlers]

5 minutes ago, Bad Example said:

I remembered that, but it felt different that they're doing it to "us".  And put a perspective on the other pictures, it no longer felt like anonymous violence, those pictures could have been people as good as Glenn.  

I assume these Saviors are forced to have the pictures above their beds to warn them of what would happen to their loved ones (or themselves) if they fall out of line.  I think it's a big reason why no one has tried to off Negan yet.  It's one thing to think that YOU might come to harm by trying something, it's quite another to know a loved one might come to harm.

[Scribbles]

I will post to decompress and I will see how I feel at the end of the week  It would not be the first time I felt toyed with by a show and found something else to give a chance. I will also say, I hope I don't have little kids dressed as Negan coming to my door Halloween night.  That alone will push me to say I can't be part of something like this.

[lezlers]

23 minutes ago, Scribbles said:

The show has had mega success when it veered off comic lines....Carol is alive and a hugely popular draw for the show......Daryl and Merle were never in the comics (have to wonder where this show would be at all without NR and MM.

. 

Oh, I totally get that.  But I think if you're going to get incensed at the show runners over something that happens on the show, it shouldn't be over something that actually happens in the comics.  Apparently these deaths and this episode were important to set up where this season is going to go.  I don't think the show runners are just randomly picking and choosing what parts of the comics to leave in and what to ignore, I think they're including the things they need to include to keep the storyline going in the direction the comics went. I think a lot of people are missing the forest for the trees here, is all.

Edited October 24, 2016 by lezlers

[Jordan27]

20 hours ago, Boofish said:

I guess I'm in the small minority that feels gutted by this episode and thinks JDM did an outstanding job (second best villian would go to Gareth for me). I think the Governor would have been more effective had more of his people knew what he was. But most of those idiots were in the dark which just made him more of a joke than a villian.

I want to see them get the best of the Saviors and I'm hoping when the people of Alexandria find out what happened the change in the dynamic will make for good TV. They already hate Rick and this is certainly not going to get him voted homecoming king.

I'm with you.  I thought it was an outstanding episode.   Very graphic and dark,  but very Walking Dead.

Negan and Rick were great and the part with Carl's arm was gut wrenching.

Have you ever seen a group of people like ours at the end of episode look so beaten?

I think we are in for a very good season and I expect the ratings to be really good.

[ParadoxLost]

Quote

I guess the issue for me is, I don't see it as a cliffhanger. To me, a true cliffhanger is where both the audience and characters are in suspense. But in the finale for last season, we HEARD someone getting killed, but they just didn't show us. So CDB already knew who was dead, but we didn't. It just felt really cheap. The end of season 4 was a true cliffhanger - CDB trapped in the train car. They don't know what the fuck they're going to do, and neither do we. 

They just handled this all wrong, IMO. And the Glenn fakeout just made it worse, because that made me really suspect he die at the end of the season and it lost a lot of the impact when it was finally revealed.  

I have said it before but I think they purposefully did the Glenn fakeout to blunt the impact of his actual death.  The show has a history of making the audience ready for someone to go by either making them frustratingly annoying or moving them to a dead-end characterization where it makes sense to end them (Andrea, Lori, Shane, Tyreese).  The deaths of the mains are carefully orchestrated and telegraphed to the audience to minimize the fallout. (Although this is backfiring because everyone is just getting annoyed with the OOC writing and direction).

- By faking his death they cleared up that Maggie wouldn't commit suicide.  CDB wouldn't fall apart.  The audience got over Glenn's death.  There is no loud wailing over Glenn being gone.  The complaining is because they executed it badly...twice.

- By having Glenn kill Negan's crew in their sleep they removed his main purpose amongst the Atlanta 5.  He was the only person that could really approach Rick with the perspective of hope or alternatives to killing and have that POV considered.  So drawing a comparison between Rick and Negan might not have been the only reason that CDB killed Neegan's people in their sleep.  It dirtied Glenn's hand and removed one of his main roles within the group.  I'm halfway to Morgan being a pacifist so someone else besides Glenn voiced the "lets talk to Neegan" option so it didn't seem so weird that Glenn didn't.  Because really although I didn't notice it at the time its kind of odd that Glenn got on board with partaking in the killing without having a private conversation with Rick first.  I guess because they needed the OBGYN access for Maggie?

I'm not saying smoothing over Glenn's death was the only reason they did these things but I bet it came up.

I also would not be surprised if the fakeout was a test of the audience and if reaction had been different that they would have gone a different way.

I think they did the cliffhanger for hype but I'm sure they weren't unhappy to have the summer to make sure that who they picked is really how they wanted to go. 

Quote

I feel like they used Abe. They wanted to give us a sense of safety, and be surprised when another person was killed. 

Definitely.  That was one reason.  But in the scenario they set up, two had to die.

Whoever was first, the lesson was.  If you come at us and kill a bunch of my people then I'll kill one of you and the rest get to live because Negan chose to let them. 

That doesn't really work because Hilltop made it clear that they always kill one person.  They killed a fifteen year old to cow Hilltop.  It CDB hadn't hit first, then Neegan would have still rolled up and just killed Enid, Carl, or Judith.

They needed someone to act out after being warned to teach the lesson that if you go against him then someone "innocent" will pay the price.  Otherwise, Daryl, Rick, or Carol wuld just infiltrate and kill Negan on a suicide mission.

[Jordan27]

52 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

My problem with the show was last season's Neegan build up over many episode for him to appear at the last minute. I asked the question here and was told that Neegan was not introduced that way in the comics. While comic readers were excited, non-readers felt continuous anvils.

Why couldn't Abe be bashed at the end of last season? I liked the guy and would have mourned his loss in between seasons. The clip of Rick saying I'm going to kill you could have been the cliffhanger. You think fans wouldn't want to see what Rick had up his sleeve? How Abe's death effects the group? The breaking of Rick would have been just as poignant and the bashing of Glenn would have been even more so.  The unnecessary way the story was split was not about storytelling. It was playing games and I think it backfired.

I disagree.  I think it was about creating a cliffhanger.   Either way, it wouldn't have changed that much, certainly not in any great way.  It was all everyone talked about during the offseason, so it worked.

[Glaze Crazy]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

I spent the last half hour reading some really perceptive, funny posts here.   I've come to the conclusion that we're too smart for this shit show.

Agreed. (well, except I don't think its shit, so much as just a controversial show) I saw several insightful posts that I wish I could have "liked" more than once.

Whether it's because of writing, directing, acting, episode structure, amounts of gore or other things, I like to read others' folks thoughts about it, good or bad. Sometimes the conversations are better than what triggered it in the first place.

I'm still not watching this episode again for a while. I woke up still thinking about it, so I guess TPTB achieved one of their goals.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Glaze Crazy
Clairfy POV

[ParadoxLost]

56 minutes ago, lezlers said:

Oh, I totally get that.  But I think if you're going to get incensed at the show runners over something that happens on the show, it shouldn't be over something that actually happens in the comics.  Apparently these deaths and this episode were important to set up where this season is going to go.  I don't think the show runners are just randomly picking and choosing what parts of the comics to leave in and what to ignore, I think they're including the things they need to include to keep the storyline going in the direction the comics went. I think a lot of people are missing the forest for the trees here, is all.

My thing with the comics specifically is that there are certain elements that are clearly iconic comic moments and I understand why they should be part of the show but they aren't grounded enough and it takes me out of the show.  Somehow they have created comic book characters and zombies that seem "real" and then all of the sudden its "OMG, the Joker just showed up, WTF?  Where is Batman?"

I had this problem with Abraham, Rosita, and Eugene.  Their introduction was a literal lift from a comic cover and although I've never read the comics, I could tell.  It took me a really long time to connect with the characters as a result.  I got there eventually. 

But now I'm having the same reaction to Negan.  He is such an over the top cartoon character.  There is nothing real or menacing about him.  I kept thinking about Austin Powers (not even Bond, the Bond spoof) where they would joke about how the villain would monologue ad nauseam and that is how he was defeated.

And its not helping that they keep showing trailers with a tiger.  I'm trying to think of a reason they need a tiger on this show but all I can come up with is that its probably popular in the comics and the show is having problems finding a balance between the goofy part of the comics and bringing realism to the comic story in a different media.

Edited October 24, 2016 by ParadoxLost

[ParadoxLost]

12 minutes ago, Jordan27 said:

I disagree.  I think it was about creating a cliffhanger.   Either way, it wouldn't have changed that much, certainly not in any great way.  It was all everyone talked about during the offseason, so it worked.

Actually, given that they killed off two characters they could have killed off Abe at the end of season 6 (ending either with Daryl lashing out and a cliffhanger on what happens next or with Abe getting the last word in) and then surprised the audience with Glenn at the start of season 7.

I wonder how that would have gone over.

[ByTor]

Are we going to hear anybody else's voice for the rest of the season?  There is NOTHING more intolerable to me than a villain who pontificates and rambles and then chuckles....blah blah blah blah blah.  20 minutes in & I wanted to bash myself in the head with Lucille just so I wouldn't have to hear that windbag anymore.

[J----av]

13 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Actually, given that they killed off two characters they could have killed off Abe at the end of season 6 (ending either with Daryl lashing out and a cliffhanger on what happens next or with Abe getting the last word in) and then surprised the audience with Glenn at the start of season 7.

I wonder how that would have gone over.

 They would probably get much, much more negative backlash then they did

[ganesh]

I was bored with Neegan by about 7 minutes in. The actor is great though. Like everyone else on the show I'm just not seeing much strategic thinking. I don't know why I'm surprised though. I get the point about killing someone in the group, but I would think you'd want more able bodies to do your work. So he offed two really valuable people. I could see chopping off a few fingers would still prove the point. At this point though, I feel like we're seeing the same character types over and over. 

Overly talking isn't that bad, but the whole putting on his little show just dragged. It would be interesting if this season someone grew a brain and they plotted to him out. 

I think AL also really brought it in this episode.

It's not fair to the show either, but all the ridiculous, incredulous hype leading up to the season turns me off. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by ganesh

[Enigma X]

And the price of cable has decided it for me. This was my last live viewing of TWD for now. I will miss my CDB family (those characters whom I love) but not tptb's attempt to shock me at absurd costs.

[Mu Shu]

3 hours ago, Dobian said:

They went for an actor who could project menace and bravado more than simply someone who is 6-4 and 250.  And remember, maybe Daryl could have kicked his ass one-on-one, or Rick, or Abe, or you.  But Negan's power comes from the fact that he has a whole army behind him and he gets to swing his bat with no repercussions.

Yeah, but he physically dragged Rick around, which was not believable.  Dude doesn't look any more athletic than Gareth did.   I think one of the Negan characteristics is supposed to be physical strength, but I may be mistaken about that.  

[jaigurudeva]

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I give them a pass on this. I'm certainly no doctor either, but even a real doctor might not be able to predict accurately the immediate results of a sudden and traumatic brain injury. I would expect someone to be instantly unconscious too, but there are records of people with spikes and knives embedded in their skulls and brains who have walked into an ER and still talking. So who knows?

You can bet you'd be knocked out - if not with the first blow to the head with a bat, then certainly the second.  Significant blunt force trauma to the skull causes axonal injury, which disrupts neural transmission and causes traumatic loss of consciousness.  This is different from sharp force trauma; the mechanisms for consciousness are spread through reciprocal connections within the cortices, so someone can remain conscious with a railroad spike through the skull (if it avoids key areas) for this reason.  Blunt force trauma, especially in an open head injury (when the skull structure is compromised, not the skin) to the frontal and pareital lobes (which, among other things, are principal in movement and speech), would be much more devastating.  Even if he were still "conscious," he'd have minimal awareness and focus.  He wouldn't be upright and giving a last goodbye to his wife.  He'd be on the ground going, "Hurbleburble."

Gore really doesn't affect me in the least, mostly because I can never suspend my disbelief high enough; I'm always too aware that it's fake. So I might've sort of laughed when Glenn was giving Maggie the Eeeeevil Eyyyye (American Tail II, anyone?).  Some things work better in the comics for a reason, I think.  I'll miss Glenn, though, he was one of my favorite characters, and Steve Yeun one of my favorite actors.  I hope he lands a good (or better) gig after this.  Glenn's unflappable optimism brought some necessary levity to CDB, where so many of the others are weighed down by their past.  Brace for even more moody and broody season, I guess.  Though if everything finally ended up alright for CDB, we'd be out of a show.

[Arnella]

Quote

And the price of cable has decided it for me. This was my last live viewing of TWD for now. I will miss my CDB family (those characters whom I love) but not tptb's attempt to shock me at absurd costs.

I have recently cut the cord and watch TWD in real time on Sling TV.  It's $20 a month so you will have to gauge if the channels they offer are worth it to you. Since most of what I watch is on HULU (except for TWD), I will probably discontinue Sling after this season is over.  Like I will only subscribe to HBO Now while Westworld and Game of Thrones are playing.

[ParadoxLost]

39 minutes ago, jaigurudeva said:

Gore really doesn't affect me in the least, mostly because I can never suspend my disbelief high enough; I'm always too aware that it's fake.

Rick's proximity to a hatchet all episode had me much more freaked out than Lucille.  I was sure Rick or Carl was going to lose a body part  I live in terror of the Grimes losing body parts because I always think that is much more likely than either of them getting killed.  The thought of Rick taking Carl's hand or his own to avoid taking Carl's is what finally made me flip the channel.

[Ohwell]

56 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

Yeah, but he physically dragged Rick around, which was not believable.  Dude doesn't look any more athletic than Gareth did.   I think one of the Negan characteristics is supposed to be physical strength, but I may be mistaken about that.  

Yeah, but Rick wasn't "himself" and he was probably in a state of shock, considering what he'd just witnessed.  I agree, though, that had Rick been Rick, Negan would have been missing a throat. 

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

 I kept thinking about Austin Powers (not even Bond, the Bond spoof) where they would joke about how the villain would monologue ad nauseam and that is how he was defeated.

That is such a weary old trope: Bad guy captures good guy and instead of just dispatching him and getting the hell out of there, spends so much time gloating and expounding on his cleverness that it gives Rescue Team enough time to sneak up and not only hear his bragging about his crimes, but to rescue good guy.

jaigurudeva - thank you for that lesson! Even I was all, "Hey, wait a minute!" when Abe rose back upright after the first blow. I didn't think that was possible, but I couldn't be sure. Your explanation makes that all the sillier. I didn't know Glenn was speaking. I thought he was just babbling. (actually, I found much of the dialogue difficult to hear last night)

[Dodginblue]

I haven't gone through the entire thread yet but I've read enough to know that probably everything I thought while watching the episode has already been described by someone else.  Torture porn, check.  Negan talks way too much, check.   Disappointing and strangely tedious episode, check.

I muted my TV when we got to the chopping off Carl's arm part.  I guess that was a take-off on Abraham - Isaac with Negan playing God.   I couldn't really watch, didn't want to hear what was being said.  And while my past line in the sand has been anything happening to Judith I've decided I have another point where I will go this far and no further and that's Carl losing any more body parts.  So I guess I'm glad they didn't actually go there.

The only scene that brought out any empathy in me at all was near the end when Maggie's talking and behind her we see Eugene still on his knees with his hands covering his face, just distraught.    

[AngelaHunter]

3 minutes ago, Dodginblue said:

 

The only scene that brought out any empathy in me at all was near the end when Maggie's talking and behind her we see Eugene still on his knees with his hands covering his face, just distraught.    

I mentioned that in my first post on this thread. It's funny that a character who annoyed me for so long that I was wishing he'd be eaten ended up being just about the only one whose reactions really upset me!

[Dodginblue]

3 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I mentioned that in my first post on this thread. It's funny that a character who annoyed me for so long that I was wishing he'd be eaten ended up being just about the only one whose reactions really upset me!

One of the things I've enjoyed about this show is seeing interaction between characters who probably would have never had much to do with each other in the world pre-ZA and I think Eugene and Abraham were a great example of that.   (Same thing with Carol and Daryl, Aaron and Daryl, heck probably Daryl and pretty much anyone.)   I'm going to miss the big lug Abraham and seeing him and Eugene yakking at each other.   And I felt Eugene's grief, I thought the actor did a great job with basically a few seconds of screen time (I think there was one or two other quick shots of him as well) to project that.

[Peanut]

15 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I have to be honest and say I don't really quite understand the visceral hate and anger directed at this episode (& now Show, overall). 

I thought we all knew this show was more about the horrific levels that humanity has sunk to - by this stage of the game - and the walkers (zombies) are just there for the horror!gore fanatics.  I get that people hate Negan and want him dead ASAP, and that's fine, I feel the same way... but isn't this what we signed up for?  Watching just how depraved, sick, and vicious some humans devolve to in the midst of an apocalypse, whilst watching and wondering how the protagonists will survive and ultimately fight back??

Just stating an opinion, but the general sentiment seems overly extreme currently.   <YMMV>

I did not sign up to watch people become sick and depraved. I signed up to see how people dealt with the zombie apocalypse.  And apparently, according to this show, it's that everyone becomes a raging asshole. 

 

The reason I am done (except to watch the Carol and Morgan episode) is that I have no desire to see where they go from here.  Because after they defeat Negan, what's next?  How do you do worse than what just happened to Glenn and Abe?  I have zero desire to see that.  

[Bad Example]

9 hours ago, kj4ever said:

So I'm not a doctor but Riddle Me This PTV...If someone gets hit hard enough to knock their eyeball out IRL wouldn't they be like unconscious? 

 

While this has been explained and my reaction isn't scientific at all, it felt to me that Glenn's last words were his brain just regurgitating its most primal, deepest grooved thought:  Always Find Maggie.  It didn't even seem like he was really there as he said it.  

[Dodginblue]

1 minute ago, Peanut said:

I did not sign up to watch people become sick and depraved. I signed up to see how people dealt with the zombie apocalypse.  And apparently, according to this show, it's that everyone becomes a raging asshole. 

 

The reason I am done (except to watch the Carol and Morgan episode) is that I have no desire to see where they go from here.  Because after they defeat Negan, what's next?  How do you do worse than what just happened to Glenn and Abe?  I have zero desire to see that.  

I don't know if I'm out or not.  I do know that I sat on my couch last night watching, kind of watching at least, and at one point I thought to myself, what am I doing?  This isn't entertaining, it's not fun or enlightening or uplifting.    It's just dull and stupid.   This show needs new writers I think.

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

The reason I am done (except to watch the Carol and Morgan episode)

I really hope there's going to be something interesting in that episode besides those two (I saw no previews keep myself virginally unspoiled). Call me callous, but  I'm wholly sick of the angsty guilt trips, spiritual dilemmas and pouty faces of those two. I'm sick of seeing Rambo Carol and the Morally Superior Jedi Morgan.

[chlban]

5 hours ago, briochetwist said:

Glenn was in the middle of his head bashing and I did the same. I think I'm done too.

I am amazed that I ever got hooked on this show to begin with. It just isn't my kind of show and I am generally not a horror fan

  I dozed off watching some early morning reruns of Mad Men, which definitely is my kind of show, after which they started a Walking Dead marathon. I half dozed during the first episode and I ended up getting hooked by the story and relationships. I have gotten caught up during the endless marathons. I may be the monority, but I still think the first season was the best and it has pretty much gone downhill. Still must see for me, just not as good.                I was not surprised at all that it was Glen because  I had heard it was him on the comics. Thing is, I don't like comic books and that is what this show is now, IMO. I am also sick of our gang coming up against another whack job. Sorry, been there done that. In addition we all know that both Rick and Darryl will be brooding all season for their parts in getting Glen killed. Another series of episodes watching them brood. I just don't think I can. The show needed Glen. With Dale and Herschel gone, they need the guy that brings some light even at the worst of times. That was Glen. I also feel like now it is all about shocking us, not entertaining us.  I am sure I will check back in occasionally, but I swear if I have to watch the two macho men brooding through another season I will just let it go.

Edited October 25, 2016 by chlban

[AwesomO4000]

I apologize in advance. The site is not working well for me and posting is really difficult. I tried to quote everyone properly, but Ptv is having none of it lately, so I did the best I could to give everyone credit.

My first post(s) didn't take, so I had to copy paste stuff... so for those that this is too long: didn't read, I bolded what I think is the highlights...

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9 hours ago, @Anosmia said:

... [snip]

Re: folks wondering how Negan has found so many people to serve him…I wonder how many of his followers do it for lack of a better option. It seems like every Big Bad has established his own fiefdom, and on top of that there are roving bands of people who won’t hesitate to kill others to get their hands on their weapons/food. Plus there are zombies everywhere. Basically, safety and security are in short supply. I guess I can see why people would opt to follow Negan despite him being so sadistic. He feeds them, he keeps them safe. Eighteen months into the apocalypse, that would seem like a damn fine offer. Maybe many of his followers are sadists, too, or at least lacking a strong moral compass. Like often attracts life. Plus I don’t think we’ve seen him be cruel to his own people—only outsiders. Rick’s group might seem destructive and evil to outsiders, too. We don’t think they’re bad because we’ve been with them from the beginning. If we were following Negan’s group from the beginning, we might not think they’re bad, either. Maybe we wouldn’t think it was such a bad thing if we had seen Rick beat the Governor or Gareth to death with a barbed wire-wrapped baseball bat.

 

  But we do know that he is cruel to his people. As @LadyMustang65 said, he cut off that one woman's finger for wanting to look for her boyfriend. The people Daryl ran into were running away, because they wanted to find the medicine for the sister(?), and Negan wouldn't let them... then the guy who stole Daryl's crossbow got his face burned by Negan when he returned or got caught. If I read the situation correctly, Negan also expects his gang to come back with stuff or face the consequences, so he definitely mistreats them. I also think that if they run away, and Negan or one of his followers finds them... well they will wish they were dead. That's my impression anyway.

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7 hours ago, @Anosmia said:

This is how I see them, too. I think the majority of them are probably just ordinary folks who are trying to survive/protect their remaining loved ones. Just because they didn't bawl/freak out during last night's brutality doesn't mean that all of them were okay with it. I'm sure some of them are sadists who WERE okay with it, but some of them could have been too terrified to step out of line or even show revulsion/horror/fury at what was happening. Not to mention the fact that some of them may have thought it was somewhat justified simply because they see the CDB folks through a lens of "Well, they killed our people and attacked us. They're the bad guy."

Rick and his people have done some shady things, albeit usually in the name of survival. I really think that Negan and his folks are maybe not so different in the end...they've done what they've done for survival and to eradicate the "bad guys" out there. Maybe it's because I'm a Cold War kid, I don't know, but I'm fascinated by the dichotomy between how groups see themselves vs how they see others, in terms of who is the bad guy. We were of course raised to see the Soviet Union as the bad guy, the mortal enemy, the antithesis of liberty. They were raised to see us the same way. But at the end of the day, they--like us--were just ordinary people living their lives, loving their families, trying to survive, with our governments both doing some shitty and some positive things in the process.

 

But is what they are doing really for "survival?" For me, what they are doing is less for survival - which to my mind would be planning something more sustainable and at least halfway predictable - and more for "let's make this easy on ourselves at the expense of others in the short term." Because what happens when there are no new other camps to exploit, or when the salvageable resources finally run out? Another camp could get wiped out by a sickness - as almost happened at the prison - or killed by another camp. Then there is no more survival for Negan's gang, because the group is depending on others and potentially precarious situations for their survival rather than putting their energy into actually doing something productive and perhaps more stable. And the main reason to do that isn't survival, but for Negan's (and to a lesser extent his group's) own immediate gratification and ego. With all of that manpower, in my opinion, they could just as easily grow their own food and improve foraging methods rather than sitting on their asses and stealing it from others. That's how I feel about that anyway.

The rest of what you say about the cold war is interesting - and I grew up in that era as well, but for me, doesn't necessarily apply to Negan - who is more to me like Hitler (or some other more appropriate tyrannical dictator - I suck at history which is not my general interest) in terms of comparison. And since Negan's people sit around and support him while seeing the atrocities firsthand, well... they aren't innocent either in my mind.

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5 hours ago, @rab01 said:

Maybe he figured that If Rick couldn't survive, he wasn't much use. I'd say he wanted to get Rick used to following orders as the first step towards taming him. As for the other saviors on the road, that's not quite fair - they're told to take all the stuff and leave the people (or all but one of the people) alive.

It's true that Negan took the loss of his men weirdly unpersonally. Maybe his supply situation is a lot worse than his manpower situation. For me, the rational part of my brain is saying that Negan is being a LOT more merciful than Rick would have been in his place. Rick would have said "we can't take a chance" and knifed every last one of the group on the ground.  In other words, if Negan didn't monologue and smile when he swung his bat, we wouldn't be able to tell he's the villain. I'll root for CDB throughout this plotline but I'm always going to remember that they started this war with a sneak attack and slaughter of sleeping people.

 

Yes, Rick's group did kill those people in their sleep, but for me, I wouldn't say that Rick's group started it. I would say Negan's group started it by leaving Daryl with the first impression they did. Daryl was very willing to give them a chance - and even went out of his way to help them even after they took him hostage. He was even wiling to see if they might join CBD - I think that was pretty damn reasonable of him. And they repayed him by taking his weapon and his transportation. Then in the second altercation with Daryl and his group, the Saviors were going to kill everybody if I remember correctly. This is not giving anyone the impression who comes across them that these are people they should negotiate with or let go to cross our paths again. This is telling anyone who manages to survive that they better do something to make sure these people do not come across their paths ever again. You could get out of Dodge, but if you have a sedentary place, the only way to do that for sure - to keep these people from coming back to you - is to get rid of them first. But that would not have happened had the first Saviors that Darryl came across not turned out to be complete assholes and people who were going to kill him - Just my opinion on that I realize, though. First (and second) impressions are important, especially in a zombie apocalypse. And the Saviors make a terrible one.

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4 hours ago, @JackONeill said:

Unfortunately, this is very true. CDB are no saints, and they've murdered many people (most with just cause). But killing Negan' people in their sleep? Sure, like Rick, we sort of knew what would happen if we didn't act. still, we murdered people IN THEIR SLEEP. But, as Morgan suggested, we could have talked to Negan first. Alas, we didn't.

 

I think the above instances proved to CBD that these people were not reasonable - unless as the Hilltop found out: a "reasonable" negotiation means they are willing to let someone of the group - potentially a kid - be killed as part of that negotiation. I think it was pretty much established that "talking" is not the only thing that would be required from Negan's group, but that some sort of sacrifice would be expected. Also if the one-sided arrangement didn't go exactly as Negan's group wanted - i.e. there wasn't enough stuff - CBD could expect someone else to be taken as a hostage, potentially to be killed if they couldn't then produce. CBD knew this from Hilltop as well. I don't think that would be something CBD would have  been willing to do. Who would they be willing to give up... and would they have even had a choice? Talking would have been pointless and likely have just meant that Rick's group wouldn't have at least taken out the one outpost that they did manage to get rid of, leaving more people Rick's group would have to "supply."

Again, my opinion only on that, but I saw why Rick did what he did. Any "negotiation" with Negan would've gone very badly, and even in the weird off chance that it didn't, the first time Rick's group underproduced because they weren't willing to kill others to get everything Negan wanted... someone would've been taken hostage as "incentive." Based on the number of smashed head polaroids on that wall, it doesn't seem to take much for Negan to have to make an "example." It would've been a no win any way they looked at it. At least Rick's way, they took a few of them out first.

Edited October 25, 2016 by AwesomO4000
Because apparently Ptv decided I needed extra spaces in my quoted sections. I disagreed.

[AngelaHunter]

If we're going to have Negan around for a long time, he needs to be something in addition to evil, IMO. Pure evil is damned boring because it's so predictable. There's no conflict and no suspense. I felt somewhat the same way about Gareth.

At least the Governor had other facets and some humanity - he mourned his daughter, he seemed fond of Andrea, his people didn't fear him (at least not for a long time) and he showed remorse while throwing Martinez to the zombies - not that it stopped him, but he took no "Ha ha!" mustache-twirling, villainous pleasure it in - all things that made his outbursts of violence more shocking.

I never read the comics, but I'm hoping Negan can be something in addition to the epitome of evil.

[BananaRama]

13 hours ago, RustbeltWriter said:

I hated to see Abe and Glenn go but it's the ZA and people are going to die. My biggest problem with this episode is that it foreshadows an endless string of violence and subjugation for the group. How do they not go back to Alexandria after that and drink the poisoned kool-aid? Throughout the last six seasons they've overcome some truly awful situations and villains but to watch two of their own beaten to death and have some lunatic almost force Rick to maim his child seems like too much. At this point how do you keep hope alive? Negan mocked Rick with the sunrise of a new day and to be honest, how does Rick reconcile going on another day living under these conditions? After Atlanta, the farm, the prison, Woodbury, and Terminus, how does Rick wake up and not think that Jacqui and Jenner at the CDC made the better choice? There is no better world left. There is just an endless string of psycopathic bullies and memories of what civilization was.  

I wondered the same thing.  Their lives are just awful.  And how are the Alexandrians going to keep up with Negan's supply demands?  I keep watching this show because I think eventually the show will run out of bad guys and Rick's group will start a new civilization.  But I finally understand what everyone has been saying, "the people are the bad guys in the zombie apocalypse - not the zombies."   This show will always be about bad guys doing bad things to people and it is not about building  a new world that has been infested with zombies.

[Susie Derkins]

8 hours ago, ChipBach said:

I didn't hate the episode until I got caught up here...  Thanks guys...  ;-)

Actually, great points about the "Dale Memorial Winnebago Ride"...  Maybe the point was to see how adept Rick was in killing some Zombies with his bare hands?  Like a job interview?  At least someone FINALLY articulated that the camper was a piece of crap.  I still contend that there must be thousands of new bus-type campers (bigger and newer) than that piece of dung.  That was about all I appreciated from Negan.

I was hoping the writers would have done a better job of pointing out that Rick was willing to sell-sword his peeps for trade of goods.  This is a fairly slippery slope that may have been partly caused the braining of two of his people.

"Dale Memorial Winnebago Ride", I'd buy that t-shirt.

Also, was it just me who thought that hanging zombie's face turned into Carol's after Rick jumped onto it? I was watching with my shirt pulled up over my face for most of the show, but I swear it looked like her. I'm too chicken to Google image search "Carol Zombie Face" which , by the by, would be an excellent user name

 

Rick's Snot Bubble for KODTTM!!!!!!

Edited October 25, 2016 by Susie Derkins
Added more comments

[ganesh]

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This show will always be about bad guys doing bad things to people and it is not about building  a new world that has been infested with zombies.

 

That's what bothers me. Yes, I do agree that something like this would happen, but these wouldn't be the only people left. That's the show they want to show, fine. Give me a break though. It's derivative now, and there's so many more stories they could tell. I guess the Alexandrians were different, but they just made them idiots to justify their pov. 

[Dodginblue]

36 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

If we're going to have Negan around for a long time, he needs to be something in addition to evil, IMO. Pure evil is damned boring because it's so predictable. There's no conflict and no suspense. I felt somewhat the same way about Gareth.

At least the Governor had other facets and some humanity - he mourned his daughter, he seemed fond of Andrea, his people didn't fear him (at least not for a long time) and he showed remorse while throwing Martinez to the zombies - not that it stopped him, but he took no "Ha ha!" mustache-twirling, villainous pleasure it in - all things that made his outbursts of violence more shocking.

I never read the comics, but I'm hoping Negan can be something in addition to the epitome of evil.

I think we're supposed to find him charismatic and that's supposed to make him interesting or something.  The smiling killer, quick with a quip then a bash up side the head.   

Using violence to keep people in line isn't something unique to the ZA.  That's part of what makes this story line so dull.  It's pre -ZA behavior carried over into the ZA.     There's a breakdown in civil society, there's no rule of law, the people willing to kill pretty much on a whim oppress and brutalize the weak and powerless.   You don't need an extinction event to see that happen.  

[AngelaHunter]

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Using violence to keep people in line isn't something unique to the ZA.

That's for sure. It's the history of humanity. It's only in very recent times - historically speaking - that laws, peacekeepers and official bodies have tried to keep the mayhem to a manageable level and often fail. Humans are vicious, bloodthirsty beasts and it would take no time at all for us (I'm speaking of the species "us" - of course I don't mean any present company!;)) to revert to savagery.

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I think we're supposed to find him charismatic and that's supposed to make him interesting or something.

A sadistic bully who lives for the sound of his own voice. Doesn't do it for me.

[slf]

9 hours ago, LadyMustang65 said:

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think it does make sense.  Most people are not really brave - not in the "I can handle the zombie apocalypse" kind of way anyway.  These are people who are just trying to survive.  They lost family and friends in horrific ways.  They've probably all nearly been eaten alive more than once.  And now there's Negan.  We know he intimidates them through torture and punishes them for every infraction, real or imagined.  Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't he chop off that one girl's finger because she either wanted to or tried to find her boyfriend?  So most of them are terrified of him, and the ones who aren't are probably sadistic bullies as well and probably help him enforce 'the law.'  But at least with Negan they are protected from the zombies.  They have a place to sleep, food to eat, a doctor to take care of their ills. And what most of them don't have is the closeness of CDB.  So while they undoubtedly fantasize about killing Negan, the looming fear of what would happen then (or what would happen if I try and fail) stops them.  As long as they don't cross Negan, they're safe . . . or as safe as anyone can be in the ZA. 

Part of my problem with this is the numbers. Either Negan has somehow managed to collect more than two dozen psychopaths (which...okay) or the number of people who've been forced into working for him at least equals or surpasses the psychos. Which means you've got one big boss, his bonkers subordinates, and his less bonkers subordinates of equal or superior numbers and a fair chunk of them have been dismembered or mutilated by the guy. So they stay because it's safer with him than by themselves, but is it really? They all seem to be strong fighters and they kill walkers almost flippantly. They clearly don't fear the walkers that much. It doesn't seem like they're safer with him than they would be if they had gone to any of the local groups or stayed on their own. Negan will mutilate you on a dime or send you on a dangerous mission to steal food/ammo or to clear walkers from an area. Seems like with him you are just as likely to end up in life-or-death situations only you're following the orders of sadistic psycho to whom you must give everything. If bending the knee to this guy gets you dismembered, mutilated, or killed then what's your incentive to bend the knee really? Either everyone in his group is an amoral coward willing to participate in the slaughter of other groups and individuals for the illusion of safety and security or they're mostly sadists themselves. 

Another part of the problem for me is the situation in which this is occurring. In real life we have brutal guys like Negan who gain followers. But this happens in societies. There's structure of some kind. There's trade, an army or force of some kind, a government, etc. These guys hijack that structure, legitimately or otherwise. They get a whole lot of powerful/trained people at their backs and that makes it harder for weaker, less powerful people to fight back. They also work to maintain that structure, production, etc. But in TWD? There's no society, no structure to hijack. The Saviors aren't producing, which would be a huge incentive to go with the flow; rather they're stealing from the producers which is unsustainable in the long run. Why wouldn't you join the producers, then, offer to help protect their group? Why join the guy who's gonna starve if his people don't steal for him? (This is even weirder when you think about how at one point Negan was just one guy with a baseball bat. How the hell did he ever get this many people to join him?) Why not break away and haul ass? I know we saw one small group try and fail but come on. They can't be seriously trying to claim that Negan's group - which honest to God can't number more than a hundred - can cover so much area, in all directions, that no one can get away. Please. (And, now that I'm thinking about it, you do have the issue of territory. RL groups like this have borders working to protect them from outside forces 75-80% of the time. The Saviors are one group in a small area surrounded by survivors who could easily, eventually, ban together against them.)

IDK. The Governor, boring as I found him, made sense to me. Most of his people weren't fighters. They couldn't handle walkers much less trained, experienced killers so that they would tow the line makes sense to me, especially considering all he and his lackeys offered. The Governor was providing, Woodbury had production and structure that drew people in and kept them in line. The Governor was not scavenging and bashing people's brains out right in front of the townspeople.

[Dodginblue]

14 minutes ago, slf said:

Part of my problem with this is the numbers. Either Negan has somehow managed to collect more than two dozen psychopaths (which...okay) or the number of people who've been forced into working for him at least equals or surpasses the psychos. Which means you've got one big boss, his bonkers subordinates, and his less bonkers subordinates of equal or superior numbers and a fair chunk of them have been dismembered or mutilated by the guy. So they stay because it's safer with him than by themselves, but is it really? They all seem to be strong fighters and they kill walkers almost flippantly. They clearly don't fear the walkers that much. It doesn't seem like they're safer with him than they would be if they had gone to any of the local groups or stayed on their own. Negan will mutilate you on a dime or send you on a dangerous mission to steal food/ammo or to clear walkers from an area. Seems like with him you are just as likely to end up in life-or-death situations only you're following the orders of sadistic psycho to whom you must give everything. If bending the knee to this guy gets you dismembered, mutilated, or killed then what's your incentive to bend the knee really? Either everyone in his group is an amoral coward willing to participate in the slaughter of other groups and individuals for the illusion of safety and security or they're mostly sadists themselves. 

 

I think most people are followers, comfortable with being lead even if the leadership is sometimes brutal.   And we don't know how these people connect to each other, if they are all just random strangers or if there are pre-existing relationships for some of them and they're trying to stay together.

I also don't think it's that easy just to go off on your own.  This is the 21st century, I don't think the skill set for most people involves knowing how to survive  with various dangers around every corner and having to figure out to get food and drinkable water and some kind of durable shelter.   

[AngelaHunter]

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I think most people are followers, comfortable with being lead even if the leadership is sometimes brutal.

Agree. Small scale - Charles Manson. Huge scale - Adolf Hitler.

Anyway, I think CDB (what's left of it) should just keep driving until they are far away from Negan. The needs of the many and all that... They shouldn't all be enslaved, brutalized and murdered for the sake of one person who mightn't ever be back anyway.

[slf]

5 minutes ago, Dodginblue said:

I think most people are followers, comfortable with being lead even if the leadership is sometimes brutal.   And we don't know how these people connect to each other, if they are all just random strangers or if there are pre-existing relationships for some of them and they're trying to stay together.

I also don't think it's that easy just to go off on your own.  This is the 21st century, I don't think the skill set for most people involves knowing how to survive  with various dangers around every corner and having to figure out to get food and drinkable water and some kind of durable shelter.   

I agree with most people being followers but the Saviors are participants. It's easy to keep your head down and tell yourself your hands are clean because it's not you doing the killing but it is actually the Saviors doing the killing. It's certainly true that there may be connections, I was just going by what we've heard Saviors say. The girl who got her finger cut off, IIRC, said she didn't even particularly care for her boyfriend. The redheaded woman she was with didn't seem to have anyone alive she cared about either, neither did the old woman; in fact in almost every group of Saviors we've met (except for one) they all seemed to hate each other.

Oh I agree it's not easy to go off on your own. I just think - low opinion of humanity that I have - most people would find it harder to do what the Saviors do. The majority of humanity has been willing to go with the flow, provided there was some benefit to themselves (structure, society). Becoming actual butchers is something else.

This show has a history of making every group CDB comes into conflict with the Evil People and with the Saviors they've just gone a step too far for me. Psychopathy is not something the majority of people result to in desperate situations and history bears that out. Psychopathy is not the natural consequence of trauma, either. This many people going this far off the rails, finding each other, and working together? It boggles the mind. This show is about the ZA, yeah, so I'll suspend my disbelief but this is too much for me. The fantasy has to be grounded and the people, their conflicts, are supposed to provide that.

[Dodginblue]

8 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Agree. Small scale - Charles Manson. Huge scale - Adolf Hitler.

Anyway, I think CDB (what's left of it) should just keep driving until they are far away from Negan. The needs of the many and all that... They shouldn't all be enslaved, brutalized and murdered for the sake of one person who mightn't ever be back anyway.

So you're not into the whole "no man left behind" thing I take it?  

[Dodginblue]

2 minutes ago, slf said:

I agree with most people being followers but the Saviors are participants. It's easy to keep your head down and tell yourself your hands are clean because it's not you doing the killing but it is actually the Saviors doing the killing. It's certainly true that there may be connections, I was just going by what we've heard Saviors say. The girl who got her finger cut off, IIRC, said she didn't even particularly care for her boyfriend. The redheaded woman she was with didn't seem to have anyone alive she cared about either, neither did the old woman; in fact in almost every group of Saviors we've met (except for one) they all seemed to hate each other.

Oh I agree it's not easy to go off on your own. I just think - low opinion of humanity that I have - most people would find it harder to do what the Saviors do. The majority of humanity has been willing to go with the flow, provided there was some benefit to themselves (structure, society). Becoming actual butchers is something else.

This show has a history of making every group CDB comes into conflict with the Evil People and with the Saviors they've just gone a step too far for me. Psychopathy is not something the majority of people result to in desperate situations and history bears that out. Psychopathy is not the natural consequence of trauma, either. This many people going this far off the rails, finding each other, and working together? It boggles the mind. This show is about the ZA, yeah, so I'll suspend my disbelief but this is too much for me. The fantasy has to be grounded and the people, their conflicts, are supposed to provide that.

I think it's called the "I was just following orders" mentality, that's how brutal leaders get people to go along with doing stuff, because the followers aren't making the decisions, they're following and that means doing what you're told.  Someone who's just keeping his head down and not participating is a bystander, which I don't imagine Negan tolerates that.  It's part of how the control is maintained, getting your followers to do the bad things, it makes them complicit, it's the cost of following.   And the follower tells him or herself, I'm just doing what I'm told, I'm not actually deciding anything, I'm not the responsible one.   

I also think that the Negan group probably sees the Rick group as predators (which they kind of are) so it's not like they've come across a group of innocent schoolchildren and followed Negan's orders to wipe them all out or something.