S02.E02: The Justice Society of America

[Wishing Well]

The part that just KILLED me is when the fight started happening in the lounge, there was a German accent yelling "PROTECT MAX LORENZ"

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Legends Of Tomorrow Meet The Justice Society Of America

Fortunately, the first impression the Legends make isn't their last.

[Sakura12]

LoT beating Arrow in the ratings is surprising. I'm happy they adjusted up. 

This show is stupid, and I can't help but smile when I'm watching it. 

[Last Time Lord]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

This show is stupid, and I can't help but smile when I'm watching it. 

It is probably the single most Comic Book-y show currently on TV, and I think the world is a much better place because of it.

[CabotCove]

Quote

Does this mean LOT beat Arrow in the ratings this week?

Yes, Arrow got 0.6, LoT 0.7, total viewership about the same. 

LoT is #3 this week?. 

[blackwing]

I am aware that there were two black males on the JSA.  One was Dr Mid-Nite and the other was Obsidian.  But now I'm confused as to what their powers was.  One was in a cape and hood and I think he had darkforce powers.  I saw tendrils of dark force coming from his hands and he also did something to blot out the sky and turn everything dark.  He also didn't seem to speak.  Which one was that?   The other one that spoke, who was that and what were his powers?

[Lantern7]

Both Dr. Mid-Nite and Obsidian were white in the comics. Obsidian can manipulate darkness to a certain degree. He was the son of Alan Scott, the "original" Green Lantern, so World War II wouldn't be a place to find him. Dr. Mid-Nite lost his sight, but developed goggles that helped him see. This came in handy while in dark spaces. If you squint, he's kinda/sorta like Daredevil, which is probably why he was put into this show.

Anybody else feel the JSA were shortchanged? I'm not expecting full backstories, but they seemed like placeholders for the most part. We didn't see what made Rex an "Hourman."

[tarotx]

More with the JSA will come.  

[PhoneCop]

15 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Sara's pretty much is the Black Canary in everything but name. Giving her a leadership position is just icing on the cake. 

This tv I expect subpar CGI, they don't have the budget movies do. I just don't understand why they choose more CGI characters if they don't have the budget. They could've chosen more characters like Sara and Mick. Lady Blackhawk, Huntress, Zatana, The Question, or any others like them. 

Katana or Zatanna? Actually, I could see either work, if they keep Zee's magic levels in check and not overly flashy visually.

15 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Sara's pretty much is the Black Canary in everything but name. Giving her a leadership position is just icing on the cake. 

This tv I expect subpar CGI, they don't have the budget movies do. I just don't understand why they choose more CGI characters if they don't have the budget. They could've chosen more characters like Sara and Mick. Lady Blackhawk, Huntress, Zatana, The Question, or any others like them. 

I saw Goro from the original Mortal Kombat, just with two arms instead of four.

[Actionmage]

Quote

Both Dr. Mid-Nite and Obsidian were white in the comics.

While that is true, in a comic called Infinity Inc.- about heroes who were children, family or mentees of the JSA- there was a second Dr. Mid-Night who was a black woman. She had been mentored, medically, by the Golden Age Dr. Mid-Night. Both were blind, iirc, but either pills ( a Golden Age staple/trope) or something with the goggles let them see.

I think the show split the difference.

I enjoyed this episode and didn't expect to feel attached to any of the JSA, but I was hoping to find out more on all of them. I am excited at the prospect of Vixen adventuring with out group. ( I think that Amaya may have a relationship with Mick that's similar to Sara's, but because both ladies appreciate the skills and mind he brings to the table. Amaya may feel she can be bluntly honest with him as that's kind of his thing.)

As to CGI Nazi, was that potentially Baron Blitzkrieg?

I also kinda missed Damien Dark's mug. He and Thawne have eminently slappable / punchable faces, but they are fun to watch.

Also, congratulations for the show getting high marks for the week!

[jhlipton]

On 10/20/2016 at 9:26 PM, Jediknight said:

Ray punching the Nazi was great, and so was the fact he couldn't do the Nazi salute. 

I thought that was the dumbest part of the show.  If he thought for even half a second about, he would have realized that he would have to at least "Seig Heil" at some point.  (And "sieg heil" just means "Hail victory!", surely he could say that!)

[Jediknight]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

I thought that was the dumbest part of the show.  If he thought for even half a second about, he would have realized that he would have to at least "Seig Heil" at some point.  (And "sieg heil" just means "Hail victory!", surely he could say that!)

He was being told to do the salute and say "Hail Hitler."  He couldn't do it, even being undercover, not just because of his morals, but he'd also know what the Nazis would have no hesitation doing to all his friends.  He probably saw it as being a betrayal of his friends.  He's the team boy scout.

The others didn't do it either, but Ray was the one that was caught.

[squidprincess]

It might also be worth noting that in the comics at least, Ray Palmer is Jewish.  I haven't seen enough of Ray's appearances on Arrow to see whether the same is true of the television version.  But that would add another layer to Ray's inability to even fake a Nazi salute.

[Argenta]

1 hour ago, squidprincess said:

It might also be worth noting that in the comics at least, Ray Palmer is Jewish.  I haven't seen enough of Ray's appearances on Arrow to see whether the same is true of the television version.  But that would add another layer to Ray's inability to even fake a Nazi salute.

Interesting. I kept thinking "Why doesn't he just do it? It wouldn't do any practical harm, and it's the only thing that'll save him and his entire team from being exposed!" 

Victor Garber singing Eidelweiss was delightful, as was the Nazi guy's emotional reaction, and the little callback to Marty singing Johnny B. Goode in Back to the Future. 

It was also a treat to see Eobard Thawne up to his usual dirty tricks; even if he only got a minute or so of screentime. I hope his role increases as the season continues. I look forward to seeing him interact with Damien & co.

[Beamish]

Fun episode... but...

None of the JSA sounded like they were living in the 1940's, outside of the "what's a computer" stereotypical-type jokes. Steel, Dr. Mid-Nite and Hourman sounded authoritative, so I guess that's as close as it gets. The JSA dialogue had too much of a contemporary vibe, especially between Vixen and Ray. Hey writers, there are plenty of movies from the time period you can use as examples of how to write dialogue for a 1940's character. Having the JSA sound more period appropriate would have really set them apart more from the contemporary Legends, and could really be funny.

Vixen's and Stargirl's costumes - once again, too contemporary. I wish they would have done a re-design of the Stargirl costume to make it look more classic JSA than just replicate the more recent comic book look. Since neither Vixen or Stargirl are actual 1940's characters, they could have done really anything costume design-wise, keeping the original flair of the more modern character, but made them more time period looking. Vixen would probably wear a domino mask or something to disguise her face is she goes undercover a lot.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Beamish

[KirkB]

One thing I was wondering, about the scene in the club, would Jax have even been let in the door? Except for the music line they seemed pretty nonplussed about his presence. Vixen's skin tone probably would have been an issue too wouldn't it?

[DavidJSnyder]

4 hours ago, Beamish said:

Fun episode... but...

None of the JSA sounded like they were living in the 1940's, outside of the "what's a computer" stereotypical-type jokes. 

Also at that time the word computer was in use for a human being who's job was to do computations.

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, KirkB said:

One thing I was wondering, about the scene in the club, would Jax have even been let in the door? Except for the music line they seemed pretty nonplussed about his presence. Vixen's skin tone probably would have been an issue too wouldn't it?

France was much better for blacks than the USA -- one of the major reasons Josephine Baker moved to France in the 1920s. So, no, neither Jax nor Vixen would have a hard time in any club in Paris.

[KirkB]

In Paris. maybe, but I was more specifically referring to the club full of Nazis.

[innocuouspuff]

My main question is, has the show completely forgotten that Stein is Jewish. He was like the least stressed out by the Nazis of the whole team.

[Sakura12]

Well Stein was posing as someone else so the Nazi's wouldn't realize he was Jewish. Although he should've have more involved in wanting to stop them. Ray being Jewish as well is something that should've been brought up, if he had told Amaya that she might've been more sympathetic towards him. 

If you think about this show too much it will ruin the enjoyment which is why I just sit back and enjoy the ride. This is one of the few hour long shows that isn't serious and somber or annoying. Although I did think that with the Forever writers joining the cast they'd do better with the history. I guess not. However like always I'm here for the characters as long the character interactions stick around I'll be here to watch. 

[squidprincess]

I think Stein being Jewish hasn't been forgotten by the show.  It probably factored in on his emphatic desire to stop the bomb last episode, and may have added an additional layer of pressure to him this episode.  It would perhaps explain why he was so tense under pressure this time, when we've seen him be strong-willed and decisive in the past.

[twoods]

I was hoping that Rex Tyler would have been on a few more episodes so that I would get my Patrick Adams fix and not have to watch Suits reruns. Sigh. What a waste of a good character. You suck, Eobard!

This season is so much more fun than last season. I like the introduction of the historian and the JLOA as new, interesting characters to this show. I do miss Rip and Cold a lot.

Edited October 24, 2016 by twoods

[MarkHB]

2 hours ago, twoods said:

Rex Ryan

Rex Tyler :). Rex Ryan coaches the Buffalo Bills.

[twoods]

2 hours ago, MarkHB said:

Rex Tyler :). Rex Ryan coaches the Buffalo Bills.

Ha! Still got the Bills on the brain after they lost to Miami. 

[ElleMo]

On 10/21/2016 at 5:02 PM, Latverian Diplomat said:

Technically the historical journal was affected at the same "time", it was altered to reflect the new timeline, I thought. Now how a historian would record in a journal that his grandfather died before his father was conceived without freaking out about it is some trick.

Is there a reason they can't just let Gideon alert them to this stuff? Did that ability go away when the Time Master Fortress of Timetude was destroyed?

 

1

 

Is that what happened with the journal??  I was puzzling over that and thought maybe he read when/where/what the dangerous mission was and assumed that was where they would be killed?

Anyway, can anyone explain why the dog tags disappeared but not Nate?  Because unless he was adopted that makes no sense to me.  When he first got the bloody bruise, I thought it was Time's way of slowly killing him as a new timeline takes hold, sort of how in Back to the Future, things kept disappearing in Marty's picture and eventually he starts to weaken too.  When Sara said the was a hemophiliac I was confused.

Time travel gives me a headache.  I am too analytical for this stuff.  Yet I torture myself and continue to watch.  

I have the same question about Gideon.

Edited October 25, 2016 by ElleMo

[stanleyk]

On 10/21/2016 at 5:46 PM, Sakura12 said:

This show is stupid, and I can't help but smile when I'm watching it. 

Exactly. It has a goofy superhero vibe that reminds me of shows from the 70s and 80s, and that's kind of refreshing in a world of super-dark shows. 

On 10/22/2016 at 0:30 AM, Actionmage said:

As to CGI Nazi, was that potentially Baron Blitzkrieg?

I don't know anything about comic book characters, but he had the baron title and his name was Krieger, so I'd guess yes? The CGI was so bad on him I had to look away. It also reminded me of shows from the 70s and 80s, but not in a good way this time.

[Latverian Diplomat]

1 hour ago, ElleMo said:

Is that what happened with the journal??  I was puzzling over that and thought maybe he read when/where/what the dangerous mission was and assumed that was where they would be killed?

Anyway, can anyone explain why the dog tags disappeared but not Nate?  Because unless he was adopted that makes no sense to me.  When he first got the bloody bruise, I thought it was Time's way of slowly killing him as a new timeline takes hold, sort of how in Back to the Future, things kept disappearing in Marty's picture and eventually he starts to weaken too.  When Sara said the was a hemophiliac I was confused.

Time travel gives me a headache.  I am too analytical for this stuff.  Yet I torture myself and continue to watch.  

I have the same question about Gideon.

IIRC, when he looks in the journal, he doesn't just say, whoa, they went to Europe right after we left, maybe my grandad didn't make it back because of something we changed; he says 'they all died'. So, I took that to mean that the journal now recorded their deaths.

Yes, the rules for what changes and what doesn't do not make sense, and are usually about serving the storytelling. Ditto, stuff about the new timeline becoming "set" if they don't change it back "soon" enough. Par for the course with time travel adventure stories, I'm afraid.

His hemophilia was hinted at before the timeline change (sharp-eyed Sara spotted the clues) so it wasn't a side effect of the timeline change. It is an interesting idea, as a part of gradually weakening a character erased from time, but it's not what they were going for.

 
 

Edited October 25, 2016 by Latverian Diplomat

[scarynikki12]

For what it's worth I think the reason Nate didn't vanish is cause his Grandma was already knocked up. As long as his dad was conceived he would exist even if Grandpa died earlier. 

[Latverian Diplomat]

24 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

For what it's worth I think the reason Nate didn't vanish is cause his Grandma was already knocked up. As long as his dad was conceived he would exist even if Grandpa died earlier. 

It's a good theory, but Nate said his dad was born in 1955.

[dkb]

I love Ray, but please no romance this season with either Sara or Vixen - actually I don't want to see any romance between the team at all. I can't believe I was one of the people that was optimistic about the Ray and Kendra thing, only for it to turn out so bad. Lesson learned. 

I want everyone on the team to just be a family like the say they are. I enjoy seeing the dynamics of each of the team with the others - their all different. Nate seems fine and Vixen looks great. 

I agree with the posters above that said that this season seems more fun already. Captain Sara Lance!!

[scarynikki12]

I know! The disappearing dog tags were a warning. If Grandpa had actually died then Nate would have vanished. Because they'd changed the sequence of events there was a danger but, until he actually dies, it can be fixed. 

Thats the best I can do. 

[squidprincess]

Rip has said that it takes time for timeline changes to settle.  Likely the dog tags were an initial ripple.  Nate didn't disappear because there was still time to repair it.

[kismet]

This show is just a bucket of fun. I enjoyed this episode so much. I like all the new people, not something I can say for all of the Flarrowverse. I was actually bummed when one of the new guys was killed.

I really enjoyed that Stein was the Leader for a little bit. I think it did make sense in time-sensitive lens that he might be assumed the leader. I also think he is the most well-spoken of the lot, and on initial appearance he has the most leadership qualities. But clearly, he was not the leader the Legends need. That was obviously Sara. However, I'm glad they showed that it was not as easy to be the leader as everyone thought. I'm also glad that Stein so willingly and quickly gave it to her as her rightful title.

Also Sound of Music is my favorite movie ever, and Victor Garber is one of my favorite people. Having him sing Edelweiss was like a dream come true. So thank you LoT writers. I do miss that they never gave CR the ability to sing on the show. See writers, its really not that hard to write in a nightclub scene with singing.

I get that there were integrity reasons that Ray could not do the salute. But the show should have mentioned it. Because the way I saw it, him not doing it was simply plot point to lead to another bar brawl. It just seemed like they wanted it to be deeper, but forgot to write that it.

I do see them putting Ray together romantically with Amaya, and I just don't get it. I don't know if its the writers, the directors or the actors. But someone needs to tell Ray, that every available female is not a romantic option. I don't ever read romance, I just read a little desperation. Sometimes BR plays his roles too much zeal that he comes off as the guy in the Offspring's "Pretty Fly for a White Guy". He needs reminders to tone it down, not encouragement. Nobody neds to see the return of Crazy Eyes.

I loved that they are writing Sara as intelligent and kickass. Seeing the signs of hemophilia. Having pep talks with heart. And then kicking ass and taking charge in the field.

I don't know who is stealing or being inspired by who but I love that "Timeless" and "LoT" are essentially mirrors of each other. LoT is funner, but I do love the intrigue better in Timeless. I also like that both episodes this week decided to address the magically time-appropriate wardrobes. Perhaps their synergy will make for better shows.

Lastly, KUDOS to LoT for beating Arrow in the ratings. I was very happy for LoT.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

If Nate was wearing the dog tags in the '40s, doesn't that mean that there was a second identical set somewhere in the same time period? ( Otherwise, how would he have inherited them from his father?)

[Latverian Diplomat]

11 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

If Nate was wearing the dog tags in the '40s, doesn't that mean that there was a second identical set somewhere in the same time period? ( Otherwise, how would he have inherited them from his father?)

Yes, grandpa is still wearing them. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

12 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

If Nate was wearing the dog tags in the '40s, doesn't that mean that there was a second identical set somewhere in the same time period? ( Otherwise, how would he have inherited them from his father?)

Yes, grandpa is still wearing them. 

I may be misremembering, but last season the crew had to avoid the paradox of having both a grown and child version of the same character co-existing within the time stream, correct?  So, duplicate inanimate objects don't cause a paradox?

[KirkB]

3 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I may be misremembering, but last season the crew had to avoid the paradox of having both a grown and child version of the same character co-existing within the time stream, correct?  So, duplicate inanimate objects don't cause a paradox?

 

I don't think it was really an issue. Sara and Mick interacted with their younger selves with no problem. I believe the problem was Rip said their past selves could not be out of the time stream for too long without causing problems. Then again, on most shows with time travel, the 'rules' are only what a writer says they are in a given episode and tend to change or be forgotten whenever it becomes inconvenient.

Edited October 26, 2016 by KirkB
Grammar

[Latverian Diplomat]

1 minute ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I may be misremembering, but last season the crew had to avoid the paradox of having both a grown and child version of the same character co-existing within the time stream, correct?  So, duplicate inanimate objects don't cause a paradox?

Didn't Martin meet his younger adult self?

[ItCouldBeWorse]

3 minutes ago, KirkB said:

6 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I may be misremembering, but last season the crew had to avoid the paradox of having both a grown and child version of the same character co-existing within the time stream, correct?  So, duplicate inanimate objects don't cause a paradox?

 

I don't think it was really an issue. Sara and Mick interacted with their younger selves with no problem. I believe the problem was Rip said their past selves could not be out of the time stream for too long without causing problems. Then again, on most shows with time travel, the 'rules' are only what a writer says they are in a given episode and tend to change or be forgotten whenever it becomes inconvenient.

 

Just now, Latverian Diplomat said:

6 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I may be misremembering, but last season the crew had to avoid the paradox of having both a grown and child version of the same character co-existing within the time stream, correct?  So, duplicate inanimate objects don't cause a paradox?

Didn't Martin meet his younger adult self?

You are both correct. Sara and Mick interacted with their younger selves at "Grandma's place" (which I think was outside the time stream?), but Martin did meet himself. So, no paradoxes to worry about on this show.

[MarkHB]

27 minutes ago, KirkB said:

I don't think it was really an issue. Sara and Mick interacted with their younger selves with no problem. I believe the problem was Rip said their past selves could not be out of the time stream for too long without causing problems. Then again, on most shows with time travel, the 'rules' are only what a writer says they are in a given episode and tend to change or be forgotten whenever it becomes inconvenient.

Yeah, I would say that, since the only actual physics we have says that time travel of this sort is impossible, the prime directive is "never let make-believe physics get in the way of a good story."

[squidprincess]

Rip did warn Martin off of attempting to abduct his baby self, but that's about it.  He didn't seem to have any issue with Mick trying to talk sense into his younger self.  Also, the same episode involved Rip using his OWN younger self as bait.  So that sort of thing doesn't seem to be a very big concern for this version of time travel.

[KirkB]

Probably the one and only actual hard and fast rule, for what I'd hope would be obvious reasons, is if you meet your past self don't kill them.

[squidprincess]

Or drive your grandfather to suicide, EOBARD.

Though, maybe someone would have a reason to want to be a time remnant?

[KirkB]

It does seem to be working out pretty well for Eobard.

[MarkHB]

I think what happened is that somehow in the post-Flashpoint universe they managed to stop Reverse Flash without Eddie killing himself, or else Eddie was never in the picture at all.  I'm pretty sure Thawne did take over for Harrison Wells though, since they mentioned "nice and not evil, a combination we haven't had before" on The Flash this week, but at any rate the upshot was that Thawne was then able to escape and live as he pleased.

[BkWurm1]

On 10/26/2016 at 3:23 PM, KirkB said:

Probably the one and only actual hard and fast rule, for what I'd hope would be obvious reasons, is if you meet your past self don't kill them.

Which makes Barry on The Flash killing his own "time remnant" all the more awful.  

Edited October 28, 2016 by BkWurm1

[kieyra]

Hmm. This show still feels like a hot mess to me, but upon reading the thread it seems like I'm at a table for one. I understand why they decided to mix up the cast, but you all seem to have a much better grip on the new characters and their backstories than I do. The historian dude isn't far enough from "dorky white dude" to set him apart from Ray for me, and Vixen seems like Hawkgirl 2.0, so I don't know what we've gained. 

I miss Snart. 

Meanwhile I know nothing about the Justice League stuff (non comic reader here) so that all went past me quicker than you can say "cheap costumes". (I think I'm spoiled on the period piece stuff by the brilliant but canceled Agent Carter in any case)

I'm having a similarly difficult time keeping up with The Flash and all the timelines and the four or five different speedsters, so it seems likely the problem is me, and my lack of real grounding in this material. I seem to do okay with Arrow and the Netflix MCU stuff, even when I know I'm missing references and Easter eggs, just can't keep up here.

Glad to see others are enjoying it, though. 

[ottoDbusdriver]

On 10/20/2016 at 9:13 PM, Sakura12 said:

This was another fun episode. Yes, most of the JSA outfits looked hokey but I think they fit with the time period. 

However I'm most happy for Captain Lance! Despite her violent exterior she is loyal and will go back to save the team. Now I want Mick to be her second. That should surprise everyone in the crossover. 

Didn't expect Rex to die. I guess that's the reason Vixen joins them, she'll want to stop his killer. 

Stargirl was pretty hot.

On 10/20/2016 at 10:56 PM, BkWurm1 said:

I need to complain about some production stuff.  The CGI, godawful.

Wow, that CGI was bad.  Laughably bad.  Like someone mentioned upthread, how was that ever approved ?

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, kieyra said:

Hmm. This show still feels like a hot mess to me, but upon reading the thread it seems like I'm at a table for one. I understand why they decided to mix up the cast, but you all seem to have a much better grip on the new characters and their backstories than I do. The historian dude isn't far enough from "dorky white dude" to set him apart from Ray for me, and Vixen seems like Hawkgirl 2.0, so I don't know what we've gained. 

I miss Snart. 

Meanwhile I know nothing about the Justice League stuff (non comic reader here) so that all went past me quicker than you can say "cheap costumes". (I think I'm spoiled on the period piece stuff by the brilliant but canceled Agent Carter in any case)

I'm having a similarly difficult time keeping up with The Flash and all the timelines and the four or five different speedsters, so it seems likely the problem is me, and my lack of real grounding in this material. I seem to do okay with Arrow and the Netflix MCU stuff, even when I know I'm missing references and Easter eggs, just can't keep up here.

Glad to see others are enjoying it, though. 

Vixen I do think came with a better starting point for the character than poor Hawkgirl did and the other huge advantage, she's not saddled down with a confusing and dull reincarnated history/curse to sort through.  So yeah, Vixen is a welcome improvement from Hawkgirl since she's already a fully competent fighter/hero without a messy backstory.  

Nate, I agree, is just generic white guy and I will continue to roll my eyes at him until he becomes something better or leaves.  At this point I'm hoping that if Nate out Rays Ray, then maybe Ray will be allowed to be less of a doofus.  

When it comes to the JSA and all the Flash stuff, watching Smallville for ten years helped since I hit wikipedia about the JSA back then.  I still do that for seemingly important characters in these shows if I hear about it ahead of time or I'm confused.  It's probably not a great selling point for the show that I recommend homework to make it more enjoyable, lol.