Hillary Rodham Clinton: 2016 Democratic Presidential Nominee

[qtpye]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2016/11/10/sam_bee_on_trump_s_election_and_white_people_ruining_america_video.html

Sorry for all the links, but Samantha Bee really sums things up nicely.

[Danny Franks]

12 minutes ago, qtpye said:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2016/11/10/sam_bee_on_trump_s_election_and_white_people_ruining_america_video.html

Sorry for all the links, but Samantha Bee really sums things up nicely.

Yeah, this video just depresses the shit out of me. And I'm not even American.

I like the message of hope in the face of adversity, but it just brings crashing home that the people in those clips are happy as pigs in shit right now, feeling vindicated and righteous. Also, that shitstain Lewandowski.

But I do like that she's highlighting the diversity and broader appeal of the Democrats, compared to the smug old white dude Republicans. 

[qtpye]

Can someone explain to me how a man born into money, who has never had to work hard a day in his life, somehow is supposed to be the savior of the working man?  How is she an elitist and he is not?

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, qtpye said:

 

Can someone explain to me how a man born into money, who has never had to work hard a day in his life, somehow is supposed to be the savior of the working man?  How is she an elitist and he is not?

 

Same way Obama could be the black child of a single mother and being part of the elite his whole life. Reality has no meaning!

I remember people on Facebook posting pictures of Hillary's childhood home and mocking it for being so very fancy as if she was presenting herself as growing up with nothing. Meanwhile they're pledging loyalty to a guy with a gold toilet.

[Keepitmoving]

11 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Can someone explain to me how a man born into money, who has never had to work hard a day in his life, somehow is supposed to be the savior of the working man?  How is she an elitist and he is not?

I tried to explain the real connection that Trump has with his supporters to someone and they were still letting his money get in the way of understanding the connection. He feels looked down on and so do his supporters. They're the kind of folks that immediately feel like someone is looking down on them when they enter an unfamiliar room of folks that don't come where they come from. I've worked with these folks, they're always taking note about who really belongs and did they put in their time and I don't care what their fancy papers say. They feel looked down on in our society, and he has been and deservedly so, looked down on by high society. He's truly scorned by the real New York elite community, and has resorted to literally having to associate with the mob. The real elite of Manhattan want nothing to do with him, they look down on him, so it's that feeling of being looked down on, that's what he has in common with his supporters. He has money supposedly, but he's never had the right kind of class to gain acceptance among the true elite and he's been pissed and out for revenge and to show them up for decades. He wants the respect, his supporters want the respect.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[qtpye]

45 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I tried to explain the real connection that Trump has with his supporters to someone and they were still letting his money get in the way of understanding the connection. He feels looked down on and so do his supporters. They're the kind of folks that immediately feel like someone is looking down on them when they enter an unfamiliar room of folks that don't come where they come from. I've worked with these folks, they're always taking note about who really belongs and did they put in their time and I don't care what their fancy papers say. They feel looked down on in our society, and he has been and deservedly so, looked down on by high society. He's truly scorned by the real New York elite community, and has resorted to literally having to associate with the mob. The real elite of Manhattan want nothing to do with him, they look down on him, so it's that feeling of being looked down on, that's what he has in common with his supporters. He has money supposedly, but he's never had the right kind of class to gain acceptance among the true elite and he's been pissed and out for revenge and to show them up for decades. He wants the respect, his supporters want the respect.

So, he is like a Wal-Mart version of a rich guy?  This actually makes a lot of sense. 

I always wondered why the hell he ran for president and now it falls into place.  His tacky ass is a joke among people with real wealth and power.

Do you think being president will get him the upper echelons of society, something he desperately craves?

Edited November 11, 2016 by qtpye

[PatsyandEddie]

In a word, no. He is a complete boor. 

[Keepitmoving]

5 minutes ago, qtpye said:

So, he is like a Wal-Mart version of a rich guy?  This actually makes a lot of sense. 

I always wondered why the hell he ran for president and now it makes sense.  His tacky ass is a joke among people with real wealth and power.

Do you think being president will get him the upper echelons of society, something he desperately craves?

Right, you got it, and he's not faking that. He's genuine in that, and the people pick that up even though he has a plane. He seems like them, like someone who the HAVES have been trying to keep down and from getting all the same riches and respect, but look at where he is anyway. He's made it, yet he's one of us.

Quote

Do you think being president will get him the upper echelons of society, something he desperately craves?

No, because those people are full of themselves, you want to slap the shit out of them for other reasons LOL. You can't get new money, nor some recent title including president and they let you in. They'll use him if they can, but still hold their noses up in the air around him when all is said and done. They know him and what they know of him will never change. 

Edited November 11, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[MulletorHater]

7 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I tried to explain the real connection that Trump has with his supporters to someone and they were still letting his money get in the way of understanding the connection. He feels looked down on and so do his supporters. They're the kind of folks that immediately feel like someone is looking down on them when they enter an unfamiliar room of folks that don't come where they come from. I've worked with these folks, they're always taking note about who really belongs and did they put in their time and I don't care what their fancy papers say. They feel looked down on in our society, and he has been and deservedly so, looked down on by high society. He's truly scorned by the real New York elite community, and has resorted to literally having to associate with the mob. The real elite of Manhattan want nothing to do with him, they look down on him, so it's that feeling of being looked down on, that's what he has in common with his supporters. He has money supposedly, but he's never had the right kind of class to gain acceptance among the true elite and he's been pissed and out for revenge and to show them up for decades. He wants the respect, his supporters want the respect.

Exactly.  According to an article I read in Vanity Fair, the old money elite in Palm Beach looked down on him and Ivana when they renovated Mar-a-Lago and filled it with outrageously garish furniture and furnishings.  Plus, they were put off by the Drumpfs' ostentatious show of wealth.  Even when they deigned to accept the Drumpfs' invitations to their dinner parties, people were snickering behind their backs and rolling their eyes at their pretensions.  They were considered social-climbing strivers--trash with money whose only taste was in their mouths.  Nor, did it help that Drumpf became bored with it all after a while and didn't bother to be polite, and was often crude.  There were times when Ivana was talking at one end of the table, and he would say he had enough, get up and leave the table while their horrified guests looked on, not caring if his wife was embarrassed by his rudeness.

To his supporters' way of thinking, Drumpf worked hard for everything he has, while Hillary's dad gave it to her.  I even heard the same canard about President Obama having everything handed to him.  

[MulletorHater]

6 minutes ago, qtpye said:

So, he is like a Wal-Mart version of a rich guy?  This actually makes a lot of sense. 

I always wondered why the hell he ran for president and now it makes sense.  His tacky ass is a joke among people with real wealth and power.

Do you think being president will get him the upper echelons of society, something he desperately craves?

He'll get his foot in the door one toe at a time, but they'll still be laughing at him behind his back and rolling their eyes above his head.  That's why the Alfred E. Smith Memorial Dinner was such a disaster for him.  Here he is--among what he thinks are his people--and because of his personality disorders, he couldn't even get that right without making a total ass of himself.  That he showed his ass in room filled with New York's society made it even worse.  He couldn't stand it that he got his butt kicked by a grown woman the night before so he had to show her up.  Except that it backfired spectacularly and he was booed.

Even though a few of Hillary's jokes would have had crickets chirping if the dinner was a cartoon, she knows how to read the temperature of a room and work it.

[Keepitmoving]

2 minutes ago, MulletorHater said:

He'll get his foot in the door one toe at a time, but they'll still be laughing at him behind his back and rolling their eyes above his head.  That's why the Alfred E. Smith Memorial Dinner was such a disaster for him.  Here he is--among what he thinks are his people--and because of his personality disorders, he couldn't even get that right without making a total ass of himself.  That he showed his ass in room filled with New York's society made it even worse.  He couldn't stand it that he got his butt kicked by a grown woman the night before so he had to show her up.  Except that it backfired spectacularly and he was booed.

Even though a few of Hillary's jokes would have had crickets chirping if the dinner was a cartoon, she knows how to read the temperature of a room and work it.

Right, he scurried out of there right after that dinner was over. Meanwhile, Hillary was still there in that room for like 20-30 minutes talking and laughing with people, that was her crowd. 

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I tried to explain the real connection that Trump has with his supporters to someone and they were still letting his money get in the way of understanding the connection. He feels looked down on and so do his supporters.

Yeah, it's that whole "blue collar billionaire" idea. They've marked him as "one of us" even though he's not in so many ways, and that makes them buy into him even in ways he tries to fake it. Like saying he's a self made man when he came from a wealthy family. They're not going to call that out the way they do with Hillary even though Hillary's *not* trying to present herself as one of them. It's almost like it's the conflicting things in him that make him such a star. He's resentful, but he also seems to have the power to "get" all those people he resents. Even though there's no doubt this mob is his second choice--he'd much rather be Obama who came from nothing and yet can look other leaders in the eye without any insecurity--they get something out of his sour grapes embracing of them.

I always connect it in my mind to the "King Ralph" idea. I've never seen the movie, but I know it's John Goodman becoming King of England or somewhere due to some freak accident. Only of course, that being Hollywood he only represents the good qualities of the regular Joe. Trump's the dark version with all the resentment. 

3 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Do you think being president will get him the upper echelons of society, something he desperately craves?

I don't think so at all. I imagine him stinking of flop sweat a lot of the time. Even if these people have to respect his title, I think he's going to know when he's in a roomful of people who are talking about stuff he doesn't understand. I mean, part of his appeal is his performed contempt for people who are curious or not xenophobic, but so much of that is fear. He'd probably love to give a rally where he made fun of Angela Merkel by talking fake German gibberish, but face to face with all these guys he folds.  I suspect he's going to want to surround himself with the familiar as much as possible.

I even keep going back to that incident that he still brags about where Putin called him якший очень человек and it was temporarily mistranslated as Putin calling him "a brilliant man" which Trump himself then, iirc, upped to "he thinks I'm a genius" or whatever. (Really Putin just said he was like a colorful character.) That seems kind of symbolic of why people have that xenophobic attitude a lot of the time, imo. The same people who sneer that people should "speak American" even when they themselves are in another country have got to have a real fear of being in a room with people talking in ways they don't understand. If they don't like fancy liberal talk, French is probably twice as snooty. (Remember how Kerry was condemned for his ability to speak French?!) And I think Trump's going to feel like that a lot being in rooms full of people who have more experience and who have worked their way up in that world for real. Trump's reality TV show experience wouldn't, I don't think, translate there. I don't know that he can work them well. Not only those people but with the population in other countries.

[qtpye]

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, it's that whole "blue collar billionaire" idea. They've marked him as "one of us" even though he's not in so many ways, and that makes them buy into him even in ways he tries to fake it. Like saying he's a self made man when he came from a wealthy family. They're not going to call that out the way they do with Hillary even though Hillary's *not* trying to present herself as one of them. It's almost like it's the conflicting things in him that make him such a star. He's resentful, but he also seems to have the power to "get" all those people he resents. Even though there's no doubt this mob is his second choice--he'd much rather be Obama who came from nothing and yet can look other leaders in the eye without any insecurity--they get something out of his sour grapes embracing of them.

I agree.  I think on the opposite end of the spectrum, Hilary reminds them of that "girl" in school who was naturally better at them at everything.

I think there are still many people in this country who feel that women are not supposed to challenge men.  It is the main job of women to make men feel good about themselves.  If you were smarter or a better athlete, you hid it, to not hurt his pride.  Think about Scarlett O'Hara saying thinks like "Why Mister Kennedy, how do think up such clever ideas, my lil' ol brain would just bust having such big thoughts", but less insipid. 

These type of stereotypes help foster the myth women are not smart enough.  These are the same people who think women can never do well in any of the hard sciences or high levels of math, even though there are many women that excel in these very types of fields.

I see it all the time.  If a boy excels in school, he must be smart and gifted.  If a girl succeeds in school, she is a grad grubber and a brown noser.

Of course, not all all people feel this way, but I would not be surprised if this was not an uncommon attitude for a lot of Trump supporters.

If you look at it from this perspective...she never had a chance.  He was the embodiment of all their insecurities and she was the type of woman that made them feel insecure in the first place.

[glowlights]

20 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Love the dog picture. CNN is now saying Hillary admitted she stepped in it with the "half the Trump supporters are deplorable" crack. Oh boo hoo, all the racists got their feelings hurt. And the ones that maybe aren't racist...well, did it ever occur to them, looking at the company they were in, that maybe their reasons for supporting Trump were kinda sorta WRONG?! *sigh* Why do I even bother?

She didn't step in it because it was wrong, she stepped in it because it was tactically ill-advised and gave the Trumpeteers something to rally around, in part because it was easy to quote out of context. Here's what she really said:

We are living in a volatile political environment. You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic -- you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people -- now 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks -- they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America.

But the other basket -- and I know this because I see friends from all over America here -- I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas -- as well as, you know, New York and California -- but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

[Danny Franks]

33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, it's that whole "blue collar billionaire" idea.

And as Jon Stewart said, "that's not a thing." Blue collar billionaire... god, which useless hack came up with that one? Just because he speaks like he never went to school and has the social graces of a poorly trained baboon doesn't mean he's blue collar. Most blue collar workers are far more refined than him.

As for the basket of deplorables? If all the stories of racially motivated attacks and incidents since the election are true, it looks like Hillary was bang on. Trump gave them legitimacy, told them it was okay to vent their vile prejudices in public. Now they feel free to shout the N-word at people from their cars. It's not dissimilar to what happened in the UK after Brexit. Attacks against immigrants and their properties shot through the roof. People were told to get out of the country, graffiti was scrawled on shops and community centres, violent acts were perpetrated against people who had done nothing other than dare to be foreign in the UK (well, in England, really).

This is what happens when you tell people with hateful views and limited intelligence that they're in the right. If Trump didn't honestly believe what he was saying, then that almost makes it worse.

[ruby24]

I don't even want to keep blaming her. She won the majority of the vote. They say she's going to win by more than JFK and Richard Nixon when they were elected president!

The will of the people was ignored.

[Danny Franks]

5 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I don't even want to keep blaming her. She won the majority of the vote. They say she's going to win by more than JFK and Richard Nixon when they were elected president!

The will of the people was ignored.

The problem is, she knew how the system worked. She knew she'd win the majority, because she'd win California and New York. It wasn't about that, it was about those swing states, as it always is. She had to win them, and just didn't get it done. It seems like she really tried in Arizona and Florida, but neglected Ohio and Pennsylvania, and didn't even think to court the Great Lakes states.

It was bad strategy, and a failure to recognise where Trump was getting his support from. I remember reading an article a while back where Hillary had said she thought there was even a chance to turn Texas blue. I mean... that would have been great but... shore up your own backyard first.

I don't want to blame her, as much as to blame all those around her who advised badly, and those in the DNC who decided years ago that she was going to be the candidate. They all screwed up on this one. And so did almost everyone else. Hindsight is 20-20, of course. Maybe we should have seen this coming. But she's been in politics for over 30 years, she definitely should have seen it coming.

The system is broken, no doubt. But it cannot be fixed any time soon. The electoral college worked for the Republicans this time, so they love it. And I doubt they would consider giving it up as the demographics in their heartland are changing. Texas is still red, but there are millions of Democrats there. As things stand, I reckon they see getting all of Texas' electoral votes is a more than fair trade off for getting none of California's.

[Keepitmoving]

But the ultimate point I was also trying to make with this genuine connection I feel he has with his supporters is that he's not a conman in this one area  which is hate for the elite because they think they are better than him and have rejected him. That feeling is not a con, it comes from a real place no matter how much money he has it's a real feeling and that's the one feeling that is at heart of his supporters. So when folks were pointing out he was conman I kept thinking, yeah he is, except in the one area where it counts the most with his supporters. 

[LoneHaranguer]

17 hours ago, ruby24 said:

What kind of a democracy give the presidency to the loser of the vote?

One that doesn't want the heavily-populated areas getting their way at the expense of the more rural areas. The electoral system is an attempt at achieving equity. Now that we have the technology to support it, maybe electoral votes should be on the level of Congressional districts instead of states, to make things harder to game.

[ruby24]

5 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

One that doesn't want the heavily-populated areas getting their way at the expense of the more rural areas. The electoral system is an attempt at achieving equity. Now that we have the technology to support it, maybe electoral votes should be on the level of Congressional districts instead of states, to make things harder to game.

That's ridiculous. It's an outdated, archaic system that needs to be abolished. They never wanted it to be given to the person who lost the vote, they foresaw the problems with that early on, Alexander Hamilton was concerned about that happening, because they knew if the person who lost the vote won the election they would not be seen as legitimate.

He was right. It's only happened very rarely and each time it was a disastrous presidency. It has no place in modern society. Other countries are baffled by us.

[Spartan Girl]

There was footage of a Trump protest in Miami on CNN, and apparently some of them didn't even vote because Bernie Sanders didn't get the nomination.

I shouldn't have been shocked, but I'm still angry. Those non voters are just as responsible as the ones that voted for Trump. They don't like Hillary?! Fine, I get it. But being so bitter that they decided not to vote at all?! THAT. IS. PART. OF. THE. FUCKING. PROBLEM!

[fireice13]

2 hours ago, LoneHaranguer said:

One that doesn't want the heavily-populated areas getting their way at the expense of the more rural areas. The electoral system is an attempt at achieving equity. Now that we have the technology to support it, maybe electoral votes should be on the level of Congressional districts instead of states, to make things harder to game.

Splitting electoral votes by congressional district would guarantee the Republicans wins every election. it's why they have the House even if Democratic candidates receive more votes. Democrats tend to cluster in urban areas under 1 maybe 2 congressional districts; whereas, Republicans are more scattered in suburban and rural areas and make up more congressional districts. 

[LoneHaranguer]

37 minutes ago, fireice13 said:

Splitting electoral votes by congressional district would guarantee the Republicans wins every election

Only if the Democrats continued to ignore the citizens they have been not only ignoring, but sometimes disparaging, because they don't think they need them to win; like the ones Clinton insulted. Elected officials are supposed to care about everyone they represent, no matter how "deplorable".

[slf]

23 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Only if the Democrats continued to ignore the citizens they have been not only ignoring, but sometimes disparaging, because they don't think they need them to win; like the ones Clinton insulted. Elected officials are supposed to care about everyone they represent, no matter how "deplorable".

She needed the deplorables to "win"? How exactly should she have appealed to them?

Trump won because the people who elected him support the things he's proposed doing. She lost because there was lower turnout, voter fraud up the wazoo, and white women chose Trump.

[slf]

15 minutes ago, stewedsquash said:

If one of the reasons Trump is considered racist is that KKK endorses him (and he did renounce the endorsment), what does it mean when Hillary endorses a former KKK leader and recruiter (Robert Byrd), calling him her mentor and friend?

He also retweeted the tweets of known white supremacists and continued to do so after being told who they were. He included the head of a white supremacist group on his list of California delegates. Breitbart is a white nationalist website and he's brought several of their people into his camp. He keeps Adolf Hitler's speeches in a cabinet beside his bed. And yeah, it means something when he makes the KKK feel included.

Robert Byrd joined the KKK for self-serving reasons, left for self-serving reasons, denounced them for self-serving reasons. "I was sorely afflicted with tunnel vision — a jejune and immature outlook — seeing only what I wanted to see because I thought the Klan could provide an outlet for my talents and ambitions." He also, over the course of decades, did the work, realizing why what he did and believed was wrong and hateful. He learned and tried and changed. "I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times ... and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened." He was eventually endorsed by the NAACP and was eventually recognized by them as a champion of civil rights. What's the point in shunning him if he learned why what he did was racist and tried and changed and used his power to help those very people he once oppressed? Why should I hold it against HRC if she didn't shun the man, either? There are valid reasons for some people to not want to ever associate with a former Klansman but white people...it'd be a little rich for many of us. HRC was never with the Klan but I doubt she's always been perfectly racially progressive her whole life, in every thought and deed.

Edited November 12, 2016 by slf

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

"hese first days post-election are emotional. My Muslim constituents are terrified; I literally had a shaking 8-year-old sobbing in my arms that she would be killed in school. Black young people on college campuses are stunned and anxious about what their future holds. Women — and as one myself who has multiple stories of inappropriate sexual harassment in the workplace — ponder how to make certain we don’t go backwards."
 

And my question Ms. Dingell, is did that 8 year olds family members, those that were able to vote, did they go in the damn booth and vote third party because they were angry that Clinton "stole" the primary from their Bernie?  Did they go in their and protest vote, stay home, or any other shit like that? Because many progressives did do that.  Because if they didn't vote for her and left their little 8 year old shaking because of that, then that's on them, not Hillary. You vote for the "evil" corporate old lady, who if nothing else is fucking sane, then you primary her in four years with a younger version of Bernie.

But yes, I do agree, the Clinton campaign was too full of itself thinking that they needed to spend more time in FL and NC instead of spending most of their days strengthening their blue wall.  I saw it as soon as the primaries were over, going for those moderate republican women thinking that because she moved farther left with the platform that, that was enough. I wish she had done what she did when she went to West Virginia and took the  heat. She should have done that in the Rust Belt time and time again, go there and take it. Do those small group meetings with voters there. She did it when she was running for the senate, her listening tour. I don't know who was making the decisions on that campaign or if Hillary was listening to all the advice. 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[DrSpaceman73]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

There was footage of a Trump protest in Miami on CNN, and apparently some of them didn't even vote because Bernie Sanders didn't get the nomination.

I shouldn't have been shocked, but I'm still angry. Those non voters are just as responsible as the ones that voted for Trump. They don't like Hillary?! Fine, I get it. But being so bitter that they decided not to vote at all?! THAT. IS. PART. OF. THE. FUCKING. PROBLEM!

I am not a Sander supporter, but I don't blame people for not voting if they don't feel any of the candidates are worthy of the job.

The idea that you just have to suck it up and make a choice among the two major party candidates just because one of them will most likely win is a big problem with the whole system. 

Not voting or voting 3rd party is a choice to send a message than neither party can take your vote for granted just because you don't like the other person. 

[slf]

2 minutes ago, stewedsquash said:

@slf  Okay. I disagree with your reasoning, I think it is misguided. 

My reasoning w/r/t Trump or Byrd?

[PatsyandEddie]

Robert Byrd called being a Klan member his "biggest mistake"   Apparently there are other former members who are in office. Some people can admit they were wrong. 

The latter half of Hillary's deplorable comment address those folks who were worried about homes, their medical care etc but it is rarely played or repeated. So she was aware. Deplorables was directed at the racists, misogynists, bullies etc. who are simply deplorable. 

Edited November 12, 2016 by PatsyandEddie
Lousy grammar

[Silver Raven]

Hugo Black, who became one of the most liberal Supreme Court justices, was a KKK member.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Silver Raven

[slf]

31 minutes ago, PatsyandEddie said:

Robert Byrd called being a Klan member was his "biggest mistake"   Apparently there are other former members who are in office. Some people can admit they were wrong. 

I get why people are uncomfortable and suspicious when it comes to Byrd and others like him, the man was a Klansman. He continued to do racist things after he came a politician. (My family is racially mixed and if he was still alive I wouldn't invite him over for tea. So I get it.) But I do believe that people can change, if they're willing. It's just that most aren't because they don't want to admit what they believe and do is wrong. It takes a lot of work, a lot of time, and a lot of being brutally honest with yourself. So many white people think because they've never attacked people or joined a group like the Klan that they aren't racist in any way. (Which is not only not true but is setting the bar pretty damn low.) But they've also likely never done a damn thing in their lives to help dismantle systems of oppression. Byrd did. Byrd did more than some Democrats who never joined the Klan but also never did much in their decades-long career to use their power to help people. And I think that makes some white people very uncomfortable.

36 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

The idea that you just have to suck it up and make a choice among the two major party candidates just because one of them will most likely win is a big problem with the whole system. 

Not voting or voting 3rd party is a choice to send a message than neither party can take your vote for granted just because you don't like the other person. 

I'm also frustrated by the two-party system but I also dislike third parties of the left because they generally only show up during presidential elections.

Edited November 12, 2016 by slf

[slf]

6 minutes ago, stewedsquash said:

A little bit of Trump, since I do not believe his core is racist. Completely with Byrd.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because I don't see at all how Trump's core isn't racist. 

[PrincessEnnui]

On November 10, 2016 at 3:50 PM, qtpye said:

One thing that was shocking to me was that not that many progressive minded young women (35 and younger) came out for her or not enough needed to make the difference.

I have been hearing that younger females are independent, but hate the term "Feminist".  I was wondering if this had anything to do with their not embracing Hillary, since she pretty much embodies the spirit of first wave Feminism.

I have seen that exact same attitude from women from something as trivial as female mages in FF. I was called the worst kind of feminist because I dare spoke out about about the role of women in FF and their state of dress. I'm not a feminist, but I don't like minorities of any sort being treated as an after thought be the real world or fiction. Fuck that. If there's something you can or want to do, and it doesn't hurt anyone, do it. I voted for Bernie in the primary as a Black woman and Hillary in the general.

[slf]

3 hours ago, stewedsquash said:

I posted this in the Trump thread:  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-said-clinton-was-in-trouble-with-the-voters-i-represent-democrats-didnt-listen/2016/11/10/0e9521a6-a796-11e6-ba59-a7d93165c6d4_story.html

Apparently there are democrats who think she needed to listen to what they were saying in order to win.

I...don't even know what to say to that article. Republican presidents produce weak economies, this is fact. The market always does better with Democrats in the White House, they create more jobs as well. Yeah, fixing the economy after Bush shit the bed for eights years has taken time especially with a Republican House and Senate fighting Obama left and right. But...as she acknowledges, Obama basically saved her state. So the fine people of Michigan, wanting more financial stability and better healthcare, voted for a man who lost a billion dollars in one year, has had to file bankruptcy four times, and has bankrupted countless businesses. Because, apparently, HRC didn't come to town to speak to them directly. Americans, globally, have a reputation for being entitled and lazy when it comes to politics and I'd have to agree.

Edited November 12, 2016 by slf

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Because, apparently, HRC didn't come to town to speak to them directly. Americans, globally, have a reputation for being entitled and lazy when it comes to politics and I'd have to agree.

I agree with this too. At the end of the day, I don't care if it was Elizabeth Warren, there were enough women in our electorate who were afraid or just flat right out did not, would not support ANY woman for president. They like the sexist men they are partnered with feel that a woman has a place, she should stay in it, and it's not in leading a damn thing. I just wanted it to be said that her campaign left no stone un-turned. But as far as I'm concerned I don't think it would have mattered. 

[film noire]

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

 

It seems Trumps dad was arrested once for refusing to leave a KKK parade.

Well, that explains his slogan "MaKKKe America Great Again"

[formerlyfreedom]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and everyone must respect everyone else's opinions and not call anyone out.

In general, please stop trying to "win" an argument here, no one is right or wrong. nobody has to prove WHY they think/feel the way they do.

This is not a courtroom no one needs 'proof' to feel how they feel.

Remember you are welcome to ignore posters you find annoying!

If you think something doesn't belong in this thread please report it! Don't engage!

Report things you find disrespectful or off topic. Don't just quote it and point it out in thread.

We've been giving warnings/Non Warning Notices up until this point, but from here on out second chances will be harder to come by.

We are locking down the forum for an hour to give everyone a chance to see this. The threads will unlock at 4:30pm Eastern Time. 

[windsprints]

Too bad it won't change a thing:

Hillary Clinton set to receive more votes than any US presidential candidate in history except Barack Obama

[LoneHaranguer]

19 hours ago, slf said:

So the fine people of Michigan, wanting more financial stability and better healthcare, voted for a man who lost a billion dollars in one year, has had to file bankruptcy four times, and has bankrupted countless businesses.

Maybe they bothered to glance at his financial disclosure and see how little that meant in the sea of investments he makes. Obama pal and legendary investor, Warren Buffett, has had his share of failures too. This is also why any complaints by Clinton or her supporters about what may have gone on in one of his businesses was meaningless; there's little chance he knew what was going on, especially if it was something that could soil the Trump name, which he cares very much about.

[windsprints]

OPINION
NEIL BUCHANAN: THE CRUEL ‘CROOKED’ CARICATURE THAT DOOMED CLINTON

[PatsyandEddie]

Thank you for the link, wind sprints. A well written article indeed! 

[Spartan Girl]

"Crooked Hillary" wasn't even a clever nickname! Not like Tricky Dick or Slick Willie, those at least had a ring to it. And yet "Crooked Hillary" actually worked. Ugh.

[Queena]

On 11/9/2016 at 7:49 PM, DAngelus said:

I just realized that you can blame the election on a Republican man…Hillary's dad.

If Hugh Rodham had not named his daughter "Hillary" (not after Sir Edmund Hillary, despite Clinton's repeated lies about this), but say perhaps "Diane" (her middle name), we would never have had that awful "I'm with Her" slogan (which basically translated to "me, me, me! Cult of personality!" to much of the electorate, and left open the door for Trump to say "I'm with YOU" to the voters) or that ridiculous "H" logo that looked like a Hospital sign.

Because you know that the only reason some genius came up with "I'm with Her" is because "Her" and "Hillary" both start with "H".  Oy vey.

Not that they couldn't come up with stupid stuff on their own (don't get me started on "Stronger Together"…ask the UK Labour party about "Better Together"), but at least it wouldn't have been "I'm with Her".

But, of course, old Hugh wanted his girl to have his same initials.  69 years later, and Hugh's penis issues bit the Dems right in the butt.  Way to go, dude.

You reached way back there my friend. 

[HumblePi]

Here's some sobering thoughts that supporters of Hillary Clinton must face in retrospect. Taking away the fact that she just wasn't liked by many, she was pretty much hated even among a large majority of women. One fact was that the election process was so long that it got painful for many people to even follow. Saying that, the lengthy campaign rhetoric gave rise to more intense verbalizing on social media, more insults that were aimed directly to the core of Trump supporters.

The press, the media, social networks and even politicians were all guilty of one thing that possibly was the force that changed the outcome of this election. That's the simple fact that a lot of people just dismissed middle America. We pointed to them accusingly of being ignorant, uneducated, gun-loving racists without college degrees. There might be more people in the Mid-West with college degrees than there are in many of our metropolitan areas. We offended the morality of so many people with our memes and our disparaging of them in not so kind words. They know that elites haven't really fixed the problems of this country that they're most concerned with such as jobs, healthcare, and immigration. Trump, although he most certainly is a shining example of an elitist, brought them home by speaking to those people who were disappointed and unhappy with Washington as a whole. He knew that to target those people who felt overlooked, insulted and trivialized would certainly bring him the Presidency.

[Menrva]

23 minutes ago, HumblePi said:

Here's some sobering thoughts that supporters of Hillary Clinton must face in retrospect. Taking away the fact that she just wasn't liked by many, she was pretty much hated even among a large majority of women. One fact was that the election process was so long that it got painful for many people to even follow. Saying that, the lengthy campaign rhetoric gave rise to more intense verbalizing on social media, more insults that were aimed directly to the core of Trump supporters.

The press, the media, social networks and even politicians were all guilty of one thing that possibly was the force that changed the outcome of this election. That's the simple fact that a lot of people just dismissed middle America. We pointed to them accusingly of being ignorant, uneducated, gun-loving racists without college degrees. There might be more people in the Mid-West with college degrees than there are in many of our metropolitan areas. We offended the morality of so many people with our memes and our disparaging of them in not so kind words. They know that elites haven't really fixed the problems of this country that they're most concerned with such as jobs, healthcare, and immigration. Trump, although he most certainly is a shining example of an elitist, brought them home by speaking to those people who were disappointed and unhappy with Washington as a whole. He knew that to target those people who felt overlooked, insulted and trivialized would certainly bring him the Presidency.

This is the thing, though: those same people who we mocked with our memes, have been shitting on education for years and years. They think being smart is bad and have convinced a lot of people that it's true. They have offended me with their cuts to education and women's healthcare and willful denial of climate change. Why do I have to be nice to them? They sure haven't been nice to me. Why do liberals always have to bend over backwards to accommodate them, when they have NEVER shown the same consideration to anyone who doesn't share their views? They might have legitimate grievances about jobs and the economy, but what have they done to make it better? They continually vote into office representatives that fail to achieve any improvements, and doggedly vote against their self-interest. They take far more tax dollars than they give and have the gall to complain that immigrants and POC are freeloaders.

I'm just so tired of making nice to people who can't even conceive of having an open mind and are 110% convinced of their own righteousness. I am more than willing to admit my faults - that's why I'm going to do what I can to get more Democrats elected to all levels of office, and I will speak up when I see injustice. But the red states can sit around and bitch and moan or gloat and cheer no matter what.

ETA: I'm sorry, HumblePi, I don't mean to jump all over you. You're really right, I'm just still grumpy and tired and reactionary. I'll take my post down because it's probably not helpful. 

Edited November 13, 2016 by Menrva
Cause I'm grouchy and tired and I need to lighten up. And have more coffee.

[sistermagpie]

26 minutes ago, HumblePi said:

We offended the morality of so many people with our memes and our disparaging of them in not so kind words.

They offended my morality with their memes and disparaging of me and not so kind words too. I assure you that had they been a bit nicer...I still wouldn't have voted for platform. Hatred of people like me (and tons of other people) is the center of their platform in ways that it simply wasn't central to the Dem platform. Ironically even when people are "nice" they're offended because it's condescending!

[NinjaPenguins]

Well, I'm not going to withdraw my support for gay marriage, reproductive rights, and the separation of church and state just to avoid offending someone's morality. I won't be a member of a party that compromises away equality chasing a few measly votes. 

[HumblePi]

12 minutes ago, Menrva said:

This is the thing, though: those same people who we mocked with our memes, have been shitting on education for years and years. They think being smart is bad and have convinced a lot of people that it's true. They have offended me with their cuts to education and women's healthcare and willful denial of climate change. Why do I have to be nice to them? They sure haven't been nice to me. Why do liberals always have to bend over backwards to accommodate them, when they have NEVER shown the same consideration to anyone who doesn't share their views? They might have legitimate grievances about jobs and the economy, but what have they done to make it better? They continually vote into office representatives that fail to achieve any improvements, and doggedly vote against their self-interest. They take far more tax dollars than they give and have the gall to complain that immigrants and POC are freeloaders.

I'm just so tired of making nice to people who can't even conceive of having an open mind and are 110% convinced of their own righteousness. I am more than willing to admit my faults - that's why I'm going to do what I can to get more Democrats elected to all levels of office, and I will speak up when I see injustice. But the red states can sit around and bitch and moan or gloat and cheer no matter what.

ETA: I'm sorry, HumblePi, I don't mean to jump all over you. You're really right, I'm just still grumpy and tired and reactionary. I'll take my post down because it's probably not helpful. 

Heck no! don't take that down, it's your viewpoint and we all appreciate seeing this from any angle. We're all looking for answers as to 'how, when and why'. When election campaigning goes on as long as this had, we get weary and increasingly angry. We who voted Democratic just could not believe that anyone in their right mind could vote for 'that'. But I started out as a huge Sanders supporter and really wasn't behind Hillary Clinton because she was just too much a part of the whole political machine in Washington that kept us in wars, that didn't seek immigration reform, that didn't want to socialize healthcare, that pandered to lobbyists for big pharmaceutical and oil. I saw that, that's why I wasn't behind her. When Bernie was defeated I nearly died. He was my personal last hope for a rejuvenated and revived American spirit and economy.

Edited November 13, 2016 by HumblePi

[NewDigs]

32 minutes ago, HumblePi said:

. We pointed to them accusingly of being ignorant, uneducated, gun-loving racists without college degrees. There might be more people in the Mid-West with college degrees than there are in many of our metropolitan area.

I think the pollsters and the media led this charge. Which most bought into.

I'd rather not hear the words college-educated-whites ever again. Puts people n little boxes.

Sad.

[windsprints]

Quote

We offended the morality of so many people with our memes and our disparaging of them in not so kind words.

I can only speak for myself and I offended no one because I did not post a single nasty meme or say a word about any group of supporters at all. I posted thoughts here and there about Donald Trump but stuck to his words and him. I was very careful in my wording and made the purposeful effort not to say a single word about those voting for him because I knew there were some people reading my FB posts that could potentially be voting for him. I don't go out of my way to insult people. That same courtesy surely was not shown towards me. Never. Ever. For years I have seen downright hateful memes and posts about President Obama, Michelle Obama, HRC, every democrat, liberals, libitards, etc. There were barely any posts about the issues or about HRC's words about what she would do as president. It was all just flat out nasty. I am convinced that many people didn't even consider the issues beyond watching Fox News.

Even after they won it continues, its just shifted to be all about the people who did not vote for Trump. Crybabies, whiners, liberals, morons, dumb, etc.  I've ignored for the most part, only making a couple of general comments that I wish people would stop posting fake information and ease up on the hate. That was met with more hate.  So tell me again, who has been pointing the fingers and spewing hate?

I'm done trying to be nice. I will never post nasty memes because even with my (very long) list of faults being downright hateful just isn't me. I will however stand up for myself when insulted.  There will be a few "go fuck yourself" coming in the days ahead and I will not feel any remorse for saying it.  

Yes, there are many people who didn't like Hillary.  IMO, those will include people who looked for reasons not to like Hillary, people who disliked Hillary because they didn't like Bill, people who did not want a woman President and people who never bothered to look into what was being said by Trump about Hillary for themselves.  She's getting an awful lot of blame (not talking about posts here, media in general) for not being a good enough candidate yet she'll have more popular votes than any other Presidential candidate in history other than Obama.

Edited November 13, 2016 by windsprints