S01.E03: Kyle

[Guest]

1 minute ago, TWP said:

For starters, his mother thought of her own feelings rather than his in keeping him from his father. She should have asked if he wanted to meet him. The notion that the only way she could bond with him is if the bio father was out of the picture makes me feel she was emotionally unfit to adopt. And while the twins called and were nice to him, it was a very us versus him situation. They are close and he seems a bit excluded. That could be because of twin closeness, or an artifact of how hideous they were to him as a child. The family damaged him. It's obvious to me.

For now, I don't see it.  I mean, as far as we know, his mom didn't see his dad again between the time Randall was 3 weeks and the time he was 36.  She couldn't exactly ask an infant to make that decision.  As far as his siblings, we know that two of them lived on the same coast and worked together - they would naturally spend more time together.  So far he doesn't seem damaged to me, but as we've only had 3 episodes, I could be wrong. 

[sasha206]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't dig Toby.  I don't know if it is mostly the actor I don't like or the completely over the topness interest he has in Kate.  I just don't find the actor nor the character to be believable.  Perhaps next episode with the ex-wife will give him a more layered character.

Mandy Moore continues to immpress with her nuanced acting.  I'm looking forward to seeikng how Rebecca's relationship with Jack disintegrates.  

[Biggie B]

One thing that irked me about Toby was when he showed up with the car, red carpet, the camera flashing, and chauffeur outfit, he said this would the day in which it was all about Kate, in which she'd be the star. Well, not so much. He made it all about himself by dressing up and calling attention to himself. He organized an activity in which Kate had no say whatsoever, and which she did not want to do (even though it thankfully worked out). It was really all about Toby. If he'd showed up and asked Kate, "What would be your idea of a perfect day?" and then made that day happen, I'd be much more impressed. His idea of a great day for Kate was one in which his needs were met - hearing her sing, showing her off to his aunt and the other senior citizens, and looking like a hero. Was that her idea of a great day?

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, TWP said:

For starters, his mother thought of her own feelings rather than his in keeping him from his father. She should have asked if he wanted to meet him. The notion that the only way she could bond with him is if the bio father was out of the picture makes me feel she was emotionally unfit to adopt. And while the twins called and were nice to him, it was a very us versus him situation. They are close and he seems a bit excluded. That could be because of twin closeness, or an artifact of how hideous they were to him as a child. The family damaged him. It's obvious to me.

I agree that Rebecca excluded William from Randall's life for "selfish" reasons, but I can give her a pass. She had just gone through a physical and emotional trauma, and feels pressure to be a loving mother to all three babies. It would have been hard enough "just" to deal with triplets even if it had been a normal birth and all three had survived. Rebecca must have been close to snapping, and having to deal with William as a regular presence in her life would have been the last straw for her.

As for Kevin and Kate being closer to each other than to Randall, I don't think it's fair to put it all on them. Randall married young, has children, a house he fixed up himself, and a business he has built. Kevin and Kate are single and work together, and they moved across the country for Kevin's career, so it's natural that they spend more time together.

Spoiler

In the preview, Kevin is visiting Randall and his family, so he obviously does make an effort.

[Enigma X]

1 hour ago, taragel said:

Jack is dead. It was established in the pilot. William looks at a picture in Randall's living room and asks about Jack and Rebecca, and Randall answers that Jack died a few years ago and Rebecca still lives in the house he grew up in. 

I totally missed that.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, taragel said:

I thought it was in the version that aired near me but now I can't find a clip of it online--it was cut out of the pilot that's available on Youtube. Here's the exchange from the script at any rate. 

Maybe they changed their mind and decided to hold that info back in better reveal of a twist or to change it up. I could swear I heard him say those lines though in the version I saw. Weird. 

I stream this show online, so at least in the version I watched, there was no mention of Jack's fate in the pilot. I even remember an interview saying that they were intentionally keeping Jack's fate quiet until later on. So this piece of dialogue must have been cut. They could have taped it and then decided that they didn't want to commit to him being dead yet in case they change their minds, or they decided that it would be a better end of the season twist to be revealed. 

I mean, I still believe that Jack is dead, but they technically haven't said on the show that he is. As much as I'd love to see Milo as Jack in the present day scenes, I understand that Jack being dead makes more sense. 

Edited October 13, 2016 by Lady Calypso

[photo fox]

Randall said something to the effect of, "If I had found William earlier, my girls could have grown up with a grandfather."  Which said, to me, that Jack has been gone from their family at least as long as his oldest daughter could remember.

Granted, he may have just meant another grandfather, or maybe I misheard and he said "their" grandfather, not "a" grandfather.  But it sounded to me like they haven't had a grandfather in their lives, "Grandpa" Miguel notwithstanding.

[izabella]

Does Beth not have parents?  I'd expect the kids to have other grandparents, unless they're gone too.

[mtlchick]

Quote

Are you in Canada by any chance? I think when I lived there, some slight tweaks existed from American versions sometimes.

I'm in Canada.  Though I did not see it online, they would not change the edit of an episode for a Canadian audience since most of the popular shows are simulcast on the Canadian networks to get the ad time.  At best the promos for a show would vary between the US and Canada which different scenes shown (I know that happened a lot for Arrow.) 

[SimoneS]

On 10/12/2016 at 10:46 AM, TWP said:

Through most of the monologuing, I can't help but hear the rantings of Dr. Bailey from Grey's Anatomy. Bailey was fine on that show, but does she need to be in about every character in this show? It's either Dr. Bailey I'm hearing or a dark version of Cat in the Hat.

On 10/12/2016 at 5:32 PM, CleoCaesar said:

Ha! I'm happy someone else hears it too. The most egregious example for me was Randall's wife's monologue about her husband to William. "He's perfect" [Lists reasons why, monologues]. It was such a ridiculous, unrealistic Shonda speech. No one talks like that in real life.

The emotional tv monologue was not invented by Shonda Rhimes. I recall the most powerful and moving tv monologues on MASH repeats from the 70s and then amazing 80s dramas like LA Law, Hill Street Blues, Thirtysomething, St. Elsewhere, China Beach to later similar amazing shows like NYPD Blues, ER, The West Wing, Six Feet Under, Oz, and the Sopranos. I am sure that I missed a few. 

While it is may be true that "no one talks like that in real life," the reason that these monologues do not seem ridiculous to the audience (some anyway) is because when the acting and writing is well done they generate real emotions.

Edited October 13, 2016 by SimoneS

[theatremouse]

On 10/11/2016 at 8:19 PM, mojoween said:

I can't imagine why Jack and Rebecca thought they were going to be ok using the name of the baby who died on their new baby.  That was a recipe for disaster from the get-go.

 

On 10/12/2016 at 3:13 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Jack said, "Tell Dr. K what names we decided on," and later Dr. K referred to the triplets as his namesakes, so I don't think that Kyle was the name they had chosen for the baby who died. It sounds like they ended up choosing K names after the babies were born to honor Dr. K.

This annoyed me because the combination of the above implied to me that sometime in between when Jack and Rebecca got to the hospital and met replacement-Dr.-K and when they had the "namesakes" conversation, they decided on three K names, then the labor promptly went south, she and third baby were in distress, third baby died, she lived as did the other two. And I know labor can sometimes take a long time, but the way it was presented it didn't seem like the parents really had a ton of time to themselves before shit got serious. 

I am also curious if what we saw in this episode was the only interaction between Shakespeare and Rebecca. I know in the present-day scene she referred to their "deal" and she also used the word "deal" in the flashback, but it just seemed like too much of an offhand thing compared to the emphasis in present-day on the word "deal"; that combined with the way William said "you look well" gave me a strong sense they met more than once. 

Edited October 13, 2016 by theatremouse

[candall]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 10:19 PM, mojoween said:

I can't imagine why Jack and Rebecca thought they were going to be ok using the name of the baby who died on their new baby.  That was a recipe for disaster from the get-go.

Right, yeow, you can't just plug in a different one.  Except. . . AHA!! . . . when William slips later and makes some reference to Randall's original name being "Kyle," Randall's going to tumble to his mother's deception.

********************

MAN, this show is good.  I like Toby, I like it all.  I enjoy it as much as ThirtySomething, way back when.  Hi, Ken Olin!  Good job, haven't lost your touch.  Do something responsible about Clooney and I'm 100%.

[burble burble burble]

[Ms Blue Jay]

3 hours ago, chocolatine said:

As for Kevin and Kate being closer to each other than to Randall, I don't think it's fair to put it all on them. Randall married young, has children, a house he fixed up himself, and a business he has built. Kevin and Kate are single and work together, and they moved across the country for Kevin's career, so it's natural that they spend more time together.

  Reveal hidden contents

In the preview, Kevin is visiting Randall and his family, so he obviously does make an effort.

You just made it click for me that my family and the family in This is Us is very, very, very similar.  Also, the "Randall" in my family is kind of bitter, which I do not judge him for, and he definitely made a new separate life for himself...  and instead of rejecting Randall in childhood the way Kevin did on the show, I totally worshipped my brother and thought he was mad cool...  

[Randomosity]

I did not get the sense at all that Kyle was to be the name of the baby who died. How would it have been? They didn't even know whether they were having boys or girls until they were out. For that matter, Jack found out that baby 3 was a boy who died while he was on his own in the hallway. There was no time when he was with Rebecca to discuss the name Kyle while baby 3 was alive and known to be a boy.

I understood it to be that the three K names were given post-birth (and also post- obtaining of orphan baby). They'd made it through the ordeal with the help of the doctor, thus they decided to bestow K names on the three living babies in his honor.

When Rebecca was told to give Kyle/Randall his own name, I saw that as just not forcing him to be part of a set of three. It wasn't an issue of it being some other dead baby's name, it was a matter of him being his own individual, separate from the twins, from the start.

[Randomosity]

3 hours ago, Biggie B said:

One thing that irked me about Toby was when he showed up with the car, red carpet, the camera flashing, and chauffeur outfit, he said this would the day in which it was all about Kate, in which she'd be the star. Well, not so much. He made it all about himself by dressing up and calling attention to himself. He organized an activity in which Kate had no say whatsoever, and which she did not want to do (even though it thankfully worked out). It was really all about Toby. If he'd showed up and asked Kate, "What would be your idea of a perfect day?" and then made that day happen, I'd be much more impressed. His idea of a great day for Kate was one in which his needs were met - hearing her sing, showing her off to his aunt and the other senior citizens, and looking like a hero. Was that her idea of a great day?

Yeah, I was half expecting her to bolt out of the car while they were stopped at a traffic light or something. That whole scenario would have been a complete no-go for me.

[ribboninthesky1]

3 hours ago, Biggie B said:

One thing that irked me about Toby was when he showed up with the car, red carpet, the camera flashing, and chauffeur outfit, he said this would the day in which it was all about Kate, in which she'd be the star. Well, not so much. He made it all about himself by dressing up and calling attention to himself. He organized an activity in which Kate had no say whatsoever, and which she did not want to do (even though it thankfully worked out). It was really all about Toby. If he'd showed up and asked Kate, "What would be your idea of a perfect day?" and then made that day happen, I'd be much more impressed. His idea of a great day for Kate was one in which his needs were met - hearing her sing, showing her off to his aunt and the other senior citizens, and looking like a hero. Was that her idea of a great day?

I agree with this assessment.  I really thought that he would ask, "What do you want to do today?" It's very strange, as we're supposed to think Toby is good for Kate.  In any other Lifetime movie, Toby's over-the-top exclamations would be red flags (and in real life, to some extent).  As someone else mentioned, they've been dating for all of a week - give the woman a chance to break her codependency with her brother. True, some people need a push, but that's different from no boundaries at all.  Even if the show was real-time - as in 3-4 weeks - that's nowhere near enough time for a relative stranger to come in and dictate how someone else should live.  The show would have done better to have them in an existing relationship, with the audience dropped in the middle. Or have Kate with existing girlfriends, which is even better.     

Plus, it seemed to me that the only reason Kate reconciled with Toby was because Kevin fired her.   So it still didn't come across as her decision.  Though I have to say, codependent twin or not, I can't blame her for not factoring Toby into her potential move with Kevin to New York.  They barely know each other.   

I looked up who had writing credits on this show, and it confirmed why Beth and Randall come across so authentic. But I'm more interested in his present day family dynamics than the Jack/Rebecca flashbacks.           

[Aloeonatable]

Quote

The comparison of this show to Thirtysomething and Brothers And Sisters is interesting as Ken Olin, this show's exec producer, starred as the hottie mc hottie Michael Steadman on Thirtysomething. You people would have to be way more than thirtysomething to have seen that show, on from 1987-1991. He also was on 30 eps of Bros & Sis, plus was exec producer on all 106 eps of that show. I see his name a lot in credits. I always had a crush on him ... Ken Olin ... dreamy!

Interestingly enough, one of Milo's first roles 20 years ago was playing a young Ken Olin in the short-lived drama, EZ Streets. 

[Big Mother]

I was a little skeptical during the first episode; it was too shmaltzy. Enjoyed the second episode more. This episode has me more in; I'm gonna be a steady watcher now.

Some of my thoughts watching the episode:

1. Maybe in 1979 it was a little bit different, but I don't know anyone who has newborn triplets and doesn't have a baby nurse, at least in the beginning. It's physically impossible for a woman recovering from a c section and a traumatic birth to take care of three babies, and her overtired husband is only marginally enough as a helper.  Where are her parents? His parents? Siblings? Don't they need some support? They lost a child. They have 3 screaming babies. And no help? It's a little far fetched.

2. Why would the hospital let baby Kyle/Randall be taken home by a post-c-section mom with 2 other babies to care for? He wouldve been so much better off being adopted by a childless couple or a couple with older children. Taking care of twins on one's own is hard; taking care of triplets is even harder. Why put this poor baby into that setup?

3. So surprised to see the "Golda Meir Adult Care Center" with the Hebrew alphabet. So cute :)

4. The old cars circa 1979 put a smile on my face. :) (I was born in 1976).

5. So Kate finally got a break while her husband took the 3 babies to the doctor; she is still six weeks post c section; and she goes looking for William? Wait, why wasn't she at the appt herself? Isnt a 6 week checkup for the mother? If this wasnt a six week checkup, there was no reason for Jack to go to the doctor. come to think of it, why was he there at all? He's an ob/gyn. Not a pediatrician. Unless he is a family doctor.

6. I understand Toby's upset. He's definitely playing 'second banana' to Kate's brother. But he is too pushy.

7. If the cancer is this bad, how is William walking around in a picture of health?

8. Ummmm why did Rebecca go LOOKING for William to tell him that he couldn't see his son ever again? That is pointless and stupid. In that day and age, adoptions were closed, so that part makes sense. But he doesnt have Rebecca's address. So why does she have to go look for him?

9. Randall and Beth are amazing. They make the episode for me.

10. Ugh. Kevin is a dbag.

11. Okay. He's not a dbag. I like that he fired her.

12. Kevin's acting has really improved.

13. Four hours?! A nursing mom? I'd be screaming in agony by the point, especially when nursing twins. Do you know how engorged she would be?

14. One of my friends lost a twin in birth 11 years ago and she was so consumed with grief for the next couple of years it was hard to talk to her sometimes. Conversely, one of my best friends lost a triplet a few weeks before birth but I never hear her talk about it. 

12. I'm so glad William came back to live with Randall. And will tell him the story of his origins.

13. Waited for the twist at the end. It didn't come. Okay! I can use an episode without a twist here and there.

14. I'm still not finding myself moved by this show. The only other family drama I ever watched is Brothers and Sisters, and THAT made me cry.

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 minutes ago, Big Mother said:

8. Ummmm why did Rebecca go LOOKING for William to tell him that he couldn't see his son ever again? That is pointless and stupid. In that day and age, adoptions were closed, so that part makes sense. But he doesnt have Rebecca's address. So why does she have to go look for him?

I thought that Rebecca was desperate into some insight on how to bond with "Kyle".  She needed to know Kyle's story, where he came from.  She needed to make the whole situation more real to herself.  She said Kyle felt like a stranger to her up until that point.

[BoogieBurns]

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

You just made it click for me that my family and the family in This is Us is very, very, very similar.  Also, the "Randall" in my family is kind of bitter, which I do not judge him for, and he definitely made a new separate life for himself...  and instead of rejecting Randall in childhood the way Kevin did on the show, I totally worshipped my brother and thought he was mad cool...  

Oh my goodness. My family too. How did I not realize it? I am Kate, the one who gets along with everyone and puts herself last. My middle sister is an actress who is shallow and known to hold a grudge. My oldest sister is our half sister, looks nothing like us, and got far away once she was old enough. Wow. I wanted to be the Randall. lol

[Empress1]

6 hours ago, sasha206 said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't dig Toby.  I don't know if it is mostly the actor I don't like or the completely over the topness interest he has in Kate.  I just don't find the actor nor the character to be believable.  Perhaps next episode with the ex-wife will give him a more layered character.

I'm not crazy about him either, but maybe it's that I am not one for public grand gestures so none of his efforts look romantic to me - especially since they just met. I'd be like, "you are coming on way too strong, sir."

47 minutes ago, Big Mother said:

Ummmm why did Rebecca go LOOKING for William to tell him that he couldn't see his son ever again? That is pointless and stupid. In that day and age, adoptions were closed, so that part makes sense. But he doesnt have Rebecca's address. So why does she have to go look for him?

Even now, it's my understanding that open adoptions are at the discretion of the birth parents - you aren't obligated to maintain contact with your kids' birth parents. You can leave the country and not tell them if you want. (Conversely, I have friends who adopted a terrific, adorable little boy and assured the birth mother that they would keep the lines of communication open, and the birth mother was like "Nah." They adopted him when he was three days old. He's now three and a half. They haven't heard from her since.)

I haven't cried once watching this show, although I do like it.

[sasha206]

55 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I thought that Rebecca was desperate into some insight on how to bond with "Kyle".  She needed to know Kyle's story, where he came from.  She needed to make the whole situation more real to herself.  She said Kyle felt like a stranger to her up until that point.

That's the way I took it too.  And maybe she had the intention of having him be involved and then saw the drug paraphenalia and decided she didn't want that? 

[Tiger]

24 minutes ago, BoogieBurns said:

Oh my goodness. My family too. How did I not realize it? I am Kate, the one who gets along with everyone and puts herself last. My middle sister is an actress who is shallow and known to hold a grudge. My oldest sister is our half sister, looks nothing like us, and got far away once she was old enough. Wow. I wanted to be the Randall. lol

Thats funny because last Sunday my SO's sister and I were talking about the show and she thinks Im the "Beth" for a few reasons, mainly because I 'married into the family' and because Im definitely the skeptical who feels the need to protect the group from outsiders and themselves.

[Court]

7 hours ago, TWP said:

For starters, his mother thought of her own feelings rather than his in keeping him from his father. She should have asked if he wanted to meet him. The notion that the only way she could bond with him is if the bio father was out of the picture makes me feel she was emotionally unfit to adopt. And while the twins called and were nice to him, it was a very us versus him situation. They are close and he seems a bit excluded. That could be because of twin closeness, or an artifact of how hideous they were to him as a child. The family damaged him. It's obvious to me.

What evidence is there that Kate was mean to Randall? Kevin was but Kate and Randall seem close. He said on the call,Kate has been updating me. 

While I think his mom was wrong,  open adoptions in the eighties was incredibly controversial and very new. Her view is very keeping with that time period. I think she was doing what she thought was best for both of them.

[BoogieBurns]

39 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Thats funny because last Sunday my SO's sister and I were talking about the show and she thinks Im the "Beth" for a few reasons, mainly because I 'married into the family' and because Im definitely the skeptical who feels the need to protect the group from outsiders and themselves.

Beth is the most normal one! No chance I'm a Beth.

[cmahorror]

I completely understood where Rebecca was coming from with William. My daughters birth mother walked in and out of their lives for years (she was my late husband's first wife), even after I adopted them. It hurt them every time she would say she would be there for them and wasn't. I never spoke an ill word about her to them but it killed me to see them hurt by her making promises and then breaking them. Rebecca seems to be a realist and she just wants to protect her son from being hurt.

I don't like Toby - family comes first for Kate and if he can't understand that her brother is going through a life changing experience and needs his sister that is his problem, not hers. Yes, I was glad Kevin fired her so she could stay in LA but if she decided to move with her brother to New York rather than stick around for some guy she has only known a week that should have been fine. Not only that but it sounds like the rest of her family is out on the East Coast so she would actually be moving back home to be closer to her whole family. Don't see where that is a bad thing.

[KaveDweller]

8 hours ago, taragel said:

I'm on the East Coast, right outside Providence (watching on FIOS). Weird, I must have remembered it from reading the script alone I guess but I could've sworn he actually said the part about his mom still in the house they grew up in out loud. Minds be tricky sometimes though.

They definitely did not say it on my broadcast, out of NYC.

[romantic idiot]

5 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I'd be like, "you are coming on way too strong, sir."

I feel like I'm watching Sex and the City all over again where Misha read out some poetry that he liked to to Carrie and Carrie the author - err..writer - spent her time rolling her eyes at how 'much' it was. Some people are just more dramatic than others, IMO. So I've been taking as my clue, Kate, on how to react. And luckily, she doesn't just have a voice, she's got an expressive face. What I saw when Toby did the red carpet thing, is here being a little embarrassed, but also happy. She liked it. She'd never had it before. Same for the singing. She ended up enjoying herself - and she would have never done it without a push. I think we need both kinds of people in our lives, those who are comfortable and will defend our territory with us, and those who will push us out of our comfort zone. I definitely have both kinds of those friends in my life and am richer for it. So far she's had Kevin for the former and now she's got Toby for the latter. And she's actually seemed okay with that so far. 

[femmefan1946]

And the premise of Randall's adoption is distracting for me. No adoption agency would give Randall to a couple who just had twins. Too many childless couples are seeking infants.

We adopted about the same time (1978). There were more babies available  before abortion became legal and while out-of -wedlock children were still a scandal. And fewer parents looking to adopt. But we still went through a six month training period, home inspections, a couple of bonding sessions, and home visits after the adoption.

And, not to put too fine a point on it, Randall is black. That puts him in the 'hard to adopt' category even today. And there is no medical background on a foundling, nor any paperwork giving him up for adoption.

Again, from personal experience at the time, our blonde daughter was considered 'hard to adopt' because she was too old-- at six months of age.

[LakeLover]

I'm enjoying this show. I particularly like Randall's story, but very much enjoy Rebecca. Jack looks too greasy and unwashed for my tastes. The thing I'm happiest about is that chances are I won't "ship" any of these couples, which means it's probable my heart won't be broken no matter what happens (I'm looking straight at you with hate in my eyes, Shonda Rhimes).

I wonder what the reveal will be about Miguel and I hope Randall's heart won't be broken by William (Shakespeare!!)

[MyAimIsTrue]

17 hours ago, sasha206 said:

Mandy Moore continues to immpress with her nuanced acting.

Isn't that the truth.  The only time I recall seeing her act before was an episode of 'Scrubs' that was heavy on physical comedy but I am impressed with her on this show.

[SlackerInc]

Wow, Randall's birth mother was hawt.  I haven't looked for a Google Image search for the actor who played her, because I suspect I'll be disappointed with her modern day look.  That '70s Afro look she was rockin' suited her very well.

I'm very glad William turned out not to have a sinister agenda.  Not just because I can now say "I told you so" (though there's that: I told you so!) but because as I said all along, I think that would have been a pretty icky direction to go in.

I'm also really glad the episode didn't end with a twist!  What a relief.  That kind of gimmick cannot sustain itself week in and week out.

Finally, just because I keep seeing people inexplicably dogging on Parenthood: I reiterate, that show was awesome.  From the pilot to the finale, and everything in between.

Edited October 14, 2016 by SlackerInc

[Guest]

This show reminds me of Thirtysomething.  I've never seen Parenthood.  It always looked too sappy and self-absorbed, kind of like this.  I've never been near tears for anything in this show.  Normally I roll my eyes at the sap level, but they seem to be pulling it off mostly well, so far, like Thirtysomething did for a long time.  

I think Toby's too much and if I were Kate I'd suggest he shave that weird comma on his head, get a toupee, or wear caps more.  

[ribboninthesky1]

7 hours ago, romantic idiot said:

I feel like I'm watching Sex and the City all over again where Misha read out some poetry that he liked to to Carrie and Carrie the author - err..writer - spent her time rolling her eyes at how 'much' it was. Some people are just more dramatic than others, IMO. So I've been taking as my clue, Kate, on how to react. And luckily, she doesn't just have a voice, she's got an expressive face. What I saw when Toby did the red carpet thing, is here being a little embarrassed, but also happy. She liked it. She'd never had it before. Same for the singing. She ended up enjoying herself - and she would have never done it without a push. I think we need both kinds of people in our lives, those who are comfortable and will defend our territory with us, and those who will push us out of our comfort zone. I definitely have both kinds of those friends in my life and am richer for it. So far she's had Kevin for the former and now she's got Toby for the latter. And she's actually seemed okay with that so far. 

I never watched Sex and the City, so I've no frame of reference on that.  But Kate is being written to like it - I don't think that negates some viewers' reaction to Toby as being inappropriately pushy. In truth, we may never know what Kate would NOT have done because they haven't written her with any significant interactions beyond Toby and Kevin.

I think those of us who take exception to Toby aren't against people who push others out of their comfort zone.  For me, it's more that she barely knows the man, and he's hurt and declaring he won't play 2nd banana to Kevin because she chose to answer her brother's call ONE TIME during that day and is actually *gasp* willing to cut their time short to support her family.  I mean, if that's what she wants to do, and the day was all about her - what's the problem?  

I get what the writers are doing. They're showing the codependent relationship of Kate and Kevin, and their growth out of that.  But I think the mechanism in which they are unpacking that for Kate is odd, especially given that Toby is someone she just met and shouldn't have much say in her daily life. I know Randall is across the country, but if she couldn't have any friends, it's a shame they couldn't have connected the siblings by having Randall be the one who helps her see she needs to live her own life. Or heck, even Beth - she pulls no punches. Someone that's known her for more than a week and isn't throwing in the "we need teh sexy times" in every other conversation.   

[izabella]

7 minutes ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

I think those of us who take exception to Toby aren't against people who push others out of their comfort zone.  For me, it's more that she barely knows the man, and he's hurt and declaring he won't play 2nd banana to Kevin because she chose to answer her brother's call ONE TIME during that day and is actually *gasp* willing to cut their time short to support her family.  I mean, if that's what she wants to do, and the day was all about her - what's the problem?  

I think Toby was taken aback when he asked Kate if he would always take a back seat to Kevin, and she said YES.  It's not just about that one time, but that she actually came out and said Kevin will always come first.  I certainly would not want to be in a relationship with a man whose sister always came first.

[ribboninthesky1]

He didn't ask Kate. He told her that he liked her a lot, but he wouldn't play second banana to Kevin. Her response, "You have to.  Everyone does." That would have disturbed me more if it wasn't in reaction to an ultimatum spoken by a man she met a week ago. Plus, since she's not interacted with anyone besides Kevin and Toby, "everyone does" feels less significant than it should.     

Edited October 14, 2016 by ribboninthesky1

[romantic idiot]

46 minutes ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

I think those of us who take exception to Toby aren't against people who push others out of their comfort zone.  For me, it's more that she barely knows the man, and he's hurt and declaring he won't play 2nd banana to Kevin because she chose to answer her brother's call ONE TIME during that day and is actually *gasp* willing to cut their time short to support her family.  I mean, if that's what she wants to do, and the day was all about her - what's the problem?  

I actually agree with you regarding the reaction of Kate wanting to leave, but for me that was more because presumably she was technically 'at work' not on her day off, and Kevin is her job. My reaction above was around the idea that Toby's grand gesture of arranging that day of 'stardom' for Kate was a bit much, since, as I said, Kate's reaction made me think it wasn't so, for her. 

[Texasmom1970]

On 10/12/2016 at 8:32 AM, Clanstarling said:

I kinda like Toby. Yes, he's pushy. Some people need pushy - particularly someone as entrenched in their own self-denial and misery as Kate is.

I totally agree. I think she is so insecure about her weight she never really would try or do anything foe herself without a push. I think that is one off the reasons she focuses so much on her brother. Not just because its her job or because she loves him. Mostly because that way she does not have to face her fears and uses it as an excuse to not have a life of her own

On 10/11/2016 at 11:32 PM, Court said:

Sterling K. Brown is magic.

I love him in this, I had never heard of him before this show. Did not know the talent I was missing.

I echo others saying the flashbacks are the best. This show reminded me how much I love Gerald McRaney. Have loved him since "Designing Women."

[ribboninthesky1]

2 hours ago, romantic idiot said:

I actually agree with you regarding the reaction of Kate wanting to leave, but for me that was more because presumably she was technically 'at work' not on her day off, and Kevin is her job. My reaction above was around the idea that Toby's grand gesture of arranging that day of 'stardom' for Kate was a bit much, since, as I said, Kate's reaction made me think it wasn't so, for her. 

Gotcha.  I wasn't even thinking about her job as Kevin's personal assistant, though perhaps she had the day off.  I still believe Toby made the day about what HE thought she should do for herself, but I'm certain I wasn't meant to perceive it that way (by the writers).  I believe we're meant to see Toby as you wrote, as the person who pushes Kate out of her comfort zone and have her enjoy life, and she needs that.  

Yet, I can totally see why some feel like Toby is a creep, within the context of some of his behavior. I'm stuck on the timeline - if they'd been together for a few months at least, his actions would make a lot more sense to me.  

[queenanne]

3 hours ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

He didn't ask Kate. He told her that he liked her a lot, but he wouldn't play second banana to Kevin. Her response, "You have to.  Everyone does." That would have disturbed me more if it wasn't in reaction to an ultimatum spoken by a man she met a week ago. Plus, since she's not interacted with anyone besides Kevin and Toby, "everyone does" feels less significant than it should.     

Early days yet of course, but I have the nagging feeling the writers want us to think that Toby is charming and magical trickster type, simply because he's always been doing the "eat-your-vegetables-thing-that-will-help-you-THE-MOST" for Kate.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

I never had strong feelings one way or another on the Toby/Kate storyline but here's my thoughts on it since I'm bored at work and I like reading everyone's contributions.

1.  There's Toby's (A) personality and character, and there's Toby's (B) actions towards Kate.  (Some might say they are all wrapped up in one.)  (A.)  SOMETIMES Toby is funny, but the actor playing Toby plays him as if there is deep, disturbing STUFF underneath all the surface 'fun'.  This might just be my reaction to it.  I just feel like something weird is going to come out later.  He kind of plays him like a "creep" so I understand what some posters mean when they say this.  People like me might see 'red flags' in his demeanor and words. There's some underlying resentment, or anger, or control issues, or something.   ("The Gift of Fear" anyone?  haha.)

(B.)  Then there's Toby's actions.  I totally understand that there is an alpha and a beta in relationships - at least, I think there is?  And one aggressor might have to push one that is passive.  But being aggressive is not necessarily good.  It's not necessarily any better than being passive is.   After reading a book on communication (LOL) which kind of changed my life, for the better I think, I think being assertive is almost always the way to go.  I think the post that rang the most true to me was the one where the poster said if Toby inserts himself into Kate's life in this aggressive manner, there is actually no improvement for Kate's well-being because he simply takes Kevin's place.  As her "leader" (LOL) or her alpha so to speak.  It would be great if Kate became more assertive in life - it would probably help EVERYTHING.  But Toby may not be the best teacher or discoverer of that.  Also he assumes to know what's best for her,  and what she wants, without asking.

2.  Then there's the issue of Kate and Kevin.  Kevin fired Kate, so it seemed to solve the problem in a major way.  But Kate had no say in anything.  In Toby's actions or Kevin's.  Kate was once again passive.  That's fine, for now, but it would be great if she could figure out what she wants in life, on her own.  For her career, for her personal romantic life, and for her family life.  I like that she put Kevin "first" but it's a confusion of job and family.  Are you putting your job first, or your family, or both?  It's nice to see somebody put their family first.  I have a brother who puts his family last, after 1 million other things.  Girlfriend first, friends, sports, 1000 other things, then family which includes me.  And it sucks.  (Some people do this because they know their family will always be there.  Take them for granted.  I am not a bad family member IMO so that's my theory.)

Just typing out loud.  Indulgently. This show is very interesting and sparks a lot of great discussion and thinking and emotion. 

Oh and to jump in on the current topic, I think the writers are leaving it ambiguous.  I don't think they are necessarily portraying Toby as 100% romantic and good.  The actor is very ambiguous to me.  The character has a weight problem so he is not perfect (so do I.  I am not judging.)  There's something there.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[theatremouse]

34 minutes ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

I still believe Toby made the day about what HE thought she should do for herself, but I'm certain I wasn't meant to perceive it that way (by the writers).  I believe we're meant to see Toby as you wrote, as the person who pushes Kate out of her comfort zone and have her enjoy life, and she needs that.  

Yet, I can totally see why some feel like Toby is a creep, within the context of some of his behavior.

I think you actually just described my problem with it: I can't tell if the writers' intention is that we interpret it as genuine-sweet/comfort-zone-push scenario (and I just disagree with their approach to that) or if it is intentional that they have this sort of ambiguous vibe, this...he's crossing a line a little...there are some red flags...but he seems well-intentioned and she seems into it so maybe it's ok...but also maybe it's going to turn down some very sketchy path as things progress.

Sometimes on TV shows it's very conspicuous to me "A is what they're going for" but "B is what I got out of it" but in this case I'm not so sure. And I can't decide if that makes it better or worse.

[potatoradio]

Quote

I think you actually just described my problem with it: I can't tell if the writers' intention is that we interpret it as genuine-sweet/comfort-zone-push scenario (and I just disagree with their approach to that) or if it is intentional that they have this sort of ambiguous vibe

Totally agree. I find it...offputting that he won't shut up about getting sex, because that portrays him as rather unappealing, but maybe he truly does see all of his "sweetalk" as sincere? I don't get the impression the writers really know which way to write him, so he's just a confused character at this point. Who tells Kate's brother that he was about to have sex with Kate. I mean...boundaries, dude! Ew.

Unpopular opinion - I really don't like either Kate or Rebecca. I can see the acting chops, for sure, but Kate rarely comes off as anything other than pathetic and Rebecca just seems entitled and whiney (there was a reason thirtysomething's Hope was nicknamed "Hope the Mope" and seemed to be a widely detested character). 

And Kevin has become an absolute non-entity.

And no, show, despite all your sad music and bald dialogue, you are not evoking much emotion to me. 

I like the Randall storyline and honestly wish this show was just about that. It's plenty to work with and I don't think the other storylines really add that much. Then again, this happens with me and ensemble shows all the time - I start tuning out the weaker (IMO) stories and just watch the storyline I'm interested in. If the show didn't have this storyline, I'd be done, but I'll keep tuning in when I can. It's not a terrible soap opera and I've definitely watched worse. 

[Clanstarling]

My take on Toby, a somewhat generous one, is that some people who are overweight shrink into themselves protectively (as I do) and some overcompensate and take control of the conversation, as it were. They create a big personality as their protection against the world. His comments about sex, to me, are not so much that it is his singular goal, but that it makes him feel less vulnerable, because he does seem to truly like, and be attracted to, Kate. I can't say at this moment that I totally like him - but that I'm willing to like him, depending on how it plays out.

[chocolatine]

I'm not sure I agree entirely that working as Kevin's assistant was such a terrible thing for Kate. I don't know what other types of work she's qualified for, but I'm sure being Kevin assistant was in many ways a cushy gig for her. He seems to pay her well if her house/condo is any indication, she doesn't have to go to an office every day at set hours, doesn't have to deal with bosses/coworkers she doesn't like. If she's an introvert, like I suspect she is, that's a HUGE perk. Yes, Kevin gets melodramatic and calls her several times during daytime hours, but he also drops everything for her when she needs him. Now, if she was some brilliant mind with an advanced education who could be curing cancer, ending world hunger, or reversing climate change, then yes, the assistant job would be beneath her, but otherwise it seems like a pretty sweet gig.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Agree; I have two brothers, I could see myself doing a job like that.  When you've worked for a million assholes the corporate/job world gets really tiring and pointless.  And I don't think intelligence or lack thereof has much to do with it.  When you're done with the corporate world, intelligent or not, you're just done.  A couple family members of mine made it goals for themselves to never work for another person again and they accomplished that.  There are members of family I'd prefer to work for than almost anyone else.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Guest]

2 hours ago, potatoradio said:

Who tells Kate's brother that he was about to have sex with Kate. I mean...boundaries, dude! Ew.

Yeah, ew.  I quit watching Casual Sex when a 40-something woman came home from a one-night-stand and bragged to her brother she came three times.  Triple ew.  

One tv trope I'm so over is the "they're so turned on they rip each others' clothes off in the (whatever disgusting, non-private, handy area)".  I blame Shonda Rimes.  I think the vast majority of us women past the age of 18 can virtually always wait to reach a private room with a bed.  

I also take issue with the trend to hire morbidly obese actors or twigs but very, very few people of the size the vast majority of us women are, like sizes 10-14.  

[Tiger]

For me, the core issue with Kate's story is that we arent seeing Kate's story; we are seeing Toby's story.

With Randall, Kevin, Rebecca, and Jack, we are seeing their stories. 

[ribboninthesky1]

3 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

SOMETIMES Toby is funny, but the actor playing Toby plays him as if there is deep, disturbing STUFF underneath all the surface 'fun'.  This might just be my reaction to it.

Not just you.  

2 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I'm not sure I agree entirely that working as Kevin's assistant was such a terrible thing for Kate. I don't know what other types of work she's qualified for, but I'm sure being Kevin assistant was in many ways a cushy gig for her. He seems to pay her well if her house/condo is any indication, she doesn't have to go to an office every day at set hours, doesn't have to deal with bosses/coworkers she doesn't like. If she's an introvert, like I suspect she is, that's a HUGE perk. Yes, Kevin gets melodramatic and calls her several times during daytime hours, but he also drops everything for her when she needs him. Now, if she was some brilliant mind with an advanced education who could be curing cancer, ending world hunger, or reversing climate change, then yes, the assistant job would be beneath her, but otherwise it seems like a pretty sweet gig.

Right? The more I reflected on the episode, the more I thought, "If that were me, I would have been on that plane to NY with my brother."  

And know what else? The more I reflect, the less I'm convinced that Kevin and Kate had an unhealthy, codependent relationship.  It's only the third episode. Even with all of Kevin's whiny entitlement in the 2nd, I didn't see enough to buy that their relationship was damaging.  They have their own separate issues yes (self-absorption, for one), but I don't think their bond was the problem.   

[ThoughtAFool]

On 10/13/2016 at 4:02 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I mean, I still believe that Jack is dead, but they technically haven't said on the show that he is. As much as I'd love to see Milo as Jack in the present day scenes, I understand that Jack being dead makes more sense. 

I thought I saw in Ep2 that when Grandma Rebecca arrived at Randall's she was wearing the necklace Jack gave her after stranding her alone with 3 kids while he went out drinking with Miguel.  I took that to mean that, however it was he exited her life, there is still some tender feeling there...