S02.E02: Liar, Liar, Slutty Dress on Fire

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

When Lucifer’s mother, Charlotte, turns up at the scene of a grizzly murder pleading innocence, Lucifer is hesitant to believe her tale. Not wanting to leave her on her own, he instructs Maze to babysit her – and not to torture her, allowing him to investigate the case with Chloe.

 

[Bruinsfan]

What does Charlotte have against bears?

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Maze has the ability to torture Charlotte?  

[Sandman87]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

What does Charlotte have against bears?

Obviously not a fan of bruins, Bruinsfan. Nor of correct spelling.

[Maherjunkie]

What?

[Sandman87]

Ruining the jokes by explaining them:

Quote

When Lucifer’s mother, Charlotte, turns up at the scene of a grizzly murder...

Bruins are brown bears (including grizzly bears). "...a grizzly murder..."

grizzly is a bear; grisly is how one describes a gruesome murder

[Maherjunkie]

Thank you, I just didn't see any misspellings so I was thrown a bit.

[Eneya]

Ah, the trope of "an actress the same age as the the male actor, will play his mother".
Meh, I am always bored by it.
We shall see, I guess.

[FinnishViewer]

23 hours ago, Eneya said:

Ah, the trope of "an actress the same age as the the male actor, will play his mother".
Meh, I am always bored by it.
We shall see, I guess.

These are not mortal characters. Why should they be age appropriate?

[Bruinsfan]

Why not get an older actress who has the experience and gravitas to really bring something special to the role when the character description allows for it? On Supernatural, the vast majority of hot young things of the week turn in forgettable one-note performances, while the seasoned actresses like Samantha Smith, Samantha Ferris, Kim Rhodes, and Lauren Tom knock it out of the park every time and become fan favorites. That's not a coincidence.

Note that this isn't a criticism of Tricia Helfer, she actually has demonstrated the ability to bring a lot of nuance to a role and to be pants-wettingly scary (a must for this character!) in her prior work. But if model-esque looks were one of the criteria for hiring, the showrunners dodged a bullet by landing her for the part.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Bruinsfan

[Eneya]

10 hours ago, FinnishViewer said:

These are not mortal characters. Why should they be age appropriate?

Mostly, because it has been done to death and mostly because it is female characters to whom this happens. :)
I remember I read a quote of an actress from the 70ies in the vein of "I played (actor)'s daughter, sister, wife (different roles). I assume that I would have played his mother, hadn't he had died of old age."

This is nothing new. Women are accepted as long as they are (perceived as) young and attractive. Past 40ies, we see a sharp decline to their total disappearance from the screen. And that starts really early. We have actresses being cast as mothers of male actors with less than 10 years of their age or of actors who are way too old to have been born by somebody in their actual age range (twentysomething being mother of a teen, especially when the actress is NOT supposed to have been a teenmom).

Where and what is my problem? My problem is that acting, as any other skill, develops with time. And when we remove older women actresses, we only are left with young and either incredibly talanted young women actresses or, more likely, experienced older male actors and forgetable female actresses, because they are still finding and honing their skills.

Question is, what is our main goal, to look at eyecandy or to look at good actors performing well on the screen? If it is the eyecandy, one can stick to models and there are a bajilion episodes of "America's Next Top Model". Considering women are half the population and actually we are not in it ONLY for the female eyecandy and we also pay, why are we treated like nonentity? Answers like "marketable" actually is not a real answer, mostly because good actors and well written sctips sell better than young actors and badly written sctipts. :) And I have the numbers to prove it.

Question about Lucifer, why do we need to be age-appropriate. We don't really and actually this actress is quite good. It just jumped at me because I was watching another TV show in which I saw the same thing but there was no supernatural explanation... just a 30year old actress with a son played by 20something year old actor. :)

The idea that you will have an older woman playing a character ONLY if there was a reason is... well, the implications of it, I am uninterested in unpicking, mostly because it is ugly, kind of sad and... boring.

So... as I said, we shall see how it goes. I REALLY hope it goes well.
I was just thinking about the wasted potential and since the entity that is Lucifer's mother could occupy only the body of a recently dead person, it is somewhat convenient it was a leggy, attractive blond. The same way it is super convenient the main female characters so regularly are supposed to be "normal/average" looking women who are played by models/the most gorgeus women you can think of". I can make a list of the currently trending tv shows (let us stick to Cops Drama of some sort), sans VERA (which is actually Brittish), I am unable to name a female leading role in which the actress is NOT smoking hot and/or looking at WORST in her 30ies. So it stops being that much of a "choice of the individual production" and turns into a pattern that one can unpick.

I honestly hope I explained myself clearly?
(P.S. Yes, Media BA here, I assume it is showing.)

[Mabinogia]

The thing is, there are some very sexy actresses who could have played his mom and not been his age. I know they couldn't necessarily get them but Helen Mirren is one of the sexiest women alive and she is (holy shit!) she's 71! Jamie Lee Curtis comes to mind. Someone like Shohreh Aghdashloo, 61, great godlike voice. Point is, they didn't have to go with young but they did. I guess we should be grateful she's not in her 20s. I really can't shake the feeling they did it for the "ooh, is he hot for him mom" angle, trying to bring in more viewers with something sexy.

[fastiller]

6 hours ago, Eneya said:

Mostly, because it has been done to death and mostly because it is female characters to whom this happens. :)
I remember I read a quote of an actress from the 70ies in the vein of "I played (actor)'s daughter, sister, wife (different roles). I assume that I would have played his mother, hadn't he had died of old age.

Remember also: within a few years Sally Field went from Tom Hanks's 'partner in flirtation ' (I don't recall if they actually got together) to his mother.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

If they had gone the other way with age (Mum as a precious little girl) I would howl with laughter as our Luci would have to toe such a fine line!   He would have to be soooo nice to her and never even hint at harming her.  We would all know she was a demon, but to the outside world?  Luci as a child abuser?  Oh, the protesting Luci would corkscrew himself with!  

It would also be incredibly edgy for a network show to portray a seemingly innocent child as a demon, deserving really bad things happening to her.   

How about the possible arc where demon girl makes friends with Trixie?!  Luci would absolutely lose it.  What fun!

[Bruinsfan]

Of course that would only exacerbate the difficulty of finding an actress who could pull it off. Christina Riccis and Kathryn Longs aren't thick on the ground.

[dargosmydaddy]

20 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

It would also be incredibly edgy for a network show to portray a seemingly innocent child as a demon, deserving really bad things happening to her.  

Didn't Supernatural do that in a very early season? (So, like, ten years ago?) Not that it can't be done again, and I'm sure the Lucifer writers would have put their own spin on it if they'd gone in that direction, but I don't think demonic children are exactly cutting edge. Not to mention a child actress might have difficulties bringing the right level of gravitas to the role. (Though the Lucifer casting directors did prove they know how to find talented kids with the casting of the Trixie actress... and now I'm imagining how hilarious some Trixie/ child-Luci's-mom scenes could be...)

On 9/29/2016 at 0:08 PM, Bruinsfan said:

seasoned actresses like Samantha Smith, Samantha Ferris, Kim Rhodes, and Lauren Tom knock it out of the park every time and become fan favorites. That's not a coincidence.

Note that this isn't a criticism of Tricia Helfer, she actually has demonstrated the ability to bring a lot of nuance to a role and to be pants-wettingly scary (a must for this character!) in her prior work. But if model-esque looks were one of the criteria for hiring, the showrunners dodged a bullet by landing her for the part.

Smith, Ferris, and Rhodes are only 5-6 years older than Helfer. And Helfer, as you noted, is pretty experienced herself, so I don't think it was the showrunners "dodging a bullet," I think it was a very conscious decision on their part.

[Loandbehold]

14 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

It would also be incredibly edgy for a network show to portray a seemingly innocent child as a demon, deserving really bad things happening to her.

The Twilight Zone had the classic episode with Bill Mumy. Angel had an episode with a child that had possessed a demon (or the demon possessed the child, then found itself trapped inside because the child was so much more evil). I'm sure there have been others.

[dargosmydaddy]

5 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

The Twilight Zone had the classic episode with Bill Mumy. Angel had an episode with a child that had possessed a demon (or the demon possessed the child, then found itself trapped inside because the child was so much more evil). I'm sure there have been others.

Just adding that the quote in your post was Lonesome Rhodes', not mine...

[Loandbehold]

Sorry about that. 

[Eneya]

Yup, the demon child has been done but the point is, one can get REALLY creative. :) I would cast this REALLY old lady with a steely attitude. Or... a woman who is hellbent (hah) to drink, eat and enjoy everything she can... while bemoaning her hip, cussing and being... an old woman. Or they can get creative and make her actually open up topics with life and being older?
 

Anyway. It was just something I mused about, sorry for the derail.

[Mabinogia]

If they wanted to get really creative they could have thrown mother into man's body. lol Really, though, everything has been done, it's about how you do it. I am trying to wait and see but so far I feel like they took the easiest possible route, a hot, sexy badass around Lucy's age just seems the most predictable to me. Stick the all-powerful mother in the body of a nerd, or someone who died of old age, something more challenging than a hot chick. I mean really, how many people would complain about being stuck in Tricia Helfer's body.

If they had gone a different direction then we could get Mother's frustration about being stuck in some undesirable body. IDK, Helfer is stunning, and I know she has the acting chops for the job, I am still just kind of disappointed at the lack of imagination in casting her.

[CheshireCat]

11 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

If they wanted to get really creative they could have thrown mother into man's body. lol Really, though, everything has been done, it's about how you do it. I am trying to wait and see but so far I feel like they took the easiest possible route, a hot, sexy badass around Lucy's age just seems the most predictable to me. Stick the all-powerful mother in the body of a nerd, or someone who died of old age, something more challenging than a hot chick. I mean really, how many people would complain about being stuck in Tricia Helfer's body.

The way I understood it in the premiere is that she can choose the body. And Lucifer did suspect her of being a man.

I don't have a problem with mom being about the age of her sons. I think it works for the show, at least, it does when the mortals don't accept her the mother because of her young looks. If the mortals do accept her then I'd agree and say it was a bad casting choice. But at the moment I think it can work really well.

[Jennstar]

I have been watching since the first season. While Tom Ellis is good looking, his character speaking in the English accent and him acting like a child in instances, being so naive as to say that he is Lucifer to Chloe and expecting her to believe him is silly. He's the devil, he needs to act more foreboding, and sinister. It's in his nature, he's been the devil for thousands of years. If he acted like that in hell what does that say about him? 

He is now scared that his mother has escaped hell. What is she going to do that will scare him? Take him back to hell? Wreak havoc on Earth? He should be comfortable with that since he is the devil. 

I find it interesting he can charm anyone but Chloe into revealing what they really want most deep down. He is intrigued by it and finds himself attracted to her, and that he finds her a challenge. 

I look forward to seeing the new episode tonight, and what his mother has up her sleeve that would scare the crap out of Lucifer. 

[Jennstar]

On September 28, 2016 at 0:11 AM, Eneya said:

Ah, the trope of "an actress the same age as the the male actor, will play his mother".
Meh, I am always bored by it.
We shall see, I guess.

Would you want to choose an old man or woman if you had the choice of being an attractive woman?

[Eneya]

If I am an allpowerful being I wouldn't care how I'd looked and I would have ENJOYED to mess with people and their perceptions. Would you? :)

In regards to Lucifer being naive, I am going to pick a bit into Christian mythology and point out that actually he IS stuck in hell for eternity and he has NOT left it, since its appearance. So even though he is really intelligent and powerful, he is also childlike (this is THIS interpretation at least) and mostly treating the whole thing as an adventure. If you check the comics, the Lucifer there is REALLY different. Unrelenting. Smart, driven. He has NOTHING above him. As per the comics, he left and gave the keys to Dream. HERE? In TVVerse? We don't know if he met Dream at all, he just left, apparently. So... I may assume there are other powers at play?

This one is... cheerful. Funny. Confused. Scared. I think it can be presented as "while around Chloe, he is more human and has humanlike emotions and feelings AND has caught the human condition". It makes no sense for his compassion and actions prior to meeting her so... we don't know.
 

Edited October 3, 2016 by Eneya

[Gigi43]

I can't believe I'm saying this about a kid... but... we better see Trixie tonight.

[storyskip]

Guys, before we go too far down the road of lamblasting the show runners, remember what network this show is on.

FOX

What demographic does FOX gun for?  18-40 male.

Look at what FOX did to Sleepy Hollow and Firefly, just off the top of my head.  I read an article where Joss Whedon talked about how he was determined to have Zoe and Wash married.  FOX fought him on it but he went ahead with it anyway.  Look what happened to Firefly.

Lucifer stepped onto the network already behind the eightball.  It was a mid season starter, it had more bad publicity than good and only 13 episodes in which to prove itself.  It should have failed and FOX could have swept it out with the trash but against the odds, as a result of a strong cast dynamic and writing, it succeeded.

But don't believe that just because it succeeded that the show runners get to call the shot.  I am willing to lay odds that when the show runner pitched the mother idea and used it as foundation for a second season, FOX nodded their heads and said "Fine but cast someone who will appeal to the male 18-40 demographic, you're light there and we want improvement."

So if you want to argue about the double standard in Hollywood between male and female actors (and believe me, I'm not arguing it exists, right up there with the unattractive man/gorgeous woman double standard) before blaming the show runners, look at the consumer of the product and where the money comes from.

[Primetimer]

The Prince of Darkness's mum learns that nothing says, 'I love you' like a few pounds of pasta gilded with fine dairy products, and she puts that know-how to use in derailing Lucifer from his deal with God.

View the full article

[gwhh]

Did they charge the cartel guys with felony drug possession at the tanning salon after all that cocaine come out of the wall that Lucifer throw that guy through??

How BIG was that house the dead lady live in?  And how much was she earning BEFORE the coke deals to afford that house?

So is Maze new friend the doctor?  I was hoping she was hanging out with Trixie on the down low!  Would explain the mutilated doll!!

How could Maze clothes fit on mum?  Mum is 5 11 in height .  And maze is 5 7!!  No way those clothes fit each other??!!?

Edited October 4, 2016 by gwhh

[scarynikki12]

Tricia is playing this perfectly.  That final scene was my favorite of the episode and it puts Mum at the top of my list of characters I want to follow around this season, barely beating Maze.  Whoever crafted that scene was a genius.  I 100% believe that Mum is genuine in her love for Lucifer, in her regret at choices in the past, in her desire to make amends and have a fresh start.  The reveal that she's also using this to stick it to her ex makes it delicious.  Mum is so clever, revealing that Dad wanted to destroy Lucifer (I assume she meant remove from existence) to undermine what little relationship they have while also setting herself up as his savior for keeping him alive even if it meant Hell.  I am completely in love with this character.

[thuganomics85]

OK, on one hand, I certainly am not going to even pretend that they likely cast Tricia Helfer in order to sex things up even more with her parading around in skimpy outfits (provided by Maze), and even busting out some TV-14 style nudity already (that must be the show's thing.  Tom Ellis has already did it a few times and Lauren German did it once).  But on the other hand, I thought she really did a good job with the character.  I loved her disgust over being in a human body, her confusion over how everything worked on Earth, and her relationship with Lucifer.  Right now, I can buy that she both wants to make-up for what she did to Lucifer, but also gets a thrill over it meaning she can stick it to "Dad."  I still have a ton of questions like is "Charlotte" just going to leave her family and job, and wouldn't Chloe and the rest wonder why Charlotte keeps hanging out with Lucifer, but I'm enjoying it, and curious to see where this is heading.

Oh, and I really want more scenes between her and Maze too.  Their hostility was great and I loved how the actresses played off one another.

Case of the week was entertaining, but I called it as soon as I saw Eric Ladin just randomly telling Lucifer about the phones.  He is way to recognizable of a face to just show up to say a throwaway line like that.  But is neither Chloe or the rest of the cops going to wonder how Lucifer managed to throw a guy through an entire wall?

Got the first Trixie scene of the season.  Loved how Lucifer referred to her as "The Offspring" and how her face lit up when she heard his voice. She really is the only child character I can think of that is actually fun and not annoying.

Glad they brought back-up Amenadial and his lie to Linda, and him apologizing for it.  But is wings are falling apart, now?  That's not good!

Still don't mind Ella.  Liked her reaction to Lucifer trying to summon Amenadial.

[Gigi43]

Hot mom and bad/evil lawyer tropes... I kinda feel like I shouldn't like that, but they really made it work. Lucifer's need to stop everything to get that dad/husband better clothes was exactly why I find this show so. much. fun.
 

I thought Amenadiel's story was more interesting than the Mom stuff, perhaps because I was expecting the Mom emotions since the end of last season. I really liked his scene with the wings. One thing I want to know, since they're making an issue of Mom getting a body, does that mean Lucifer, Maze and Amenadiel all had to do the same? Lucifer made a comment last season about landing on a beach, and we saw Amenadiel going back and forth last season from Earth to Heaven/Hell so was he just assigned a form? Amenadiel and Dan should just team up for an apology tour at this point. I need a scene of the two of them and Lucifer soon for all the verbal shot's he could fire. Maybe, just maybe, too Dan would bring up the fact that they actually disappeared on him!

 

Last season Chloe and Dan were basically always working out of Chloe's house, now Trixie is just randomly at the station? I mean, I was happy to see her (and that she has the devil attempting to make her happy!), but, did the show have to trade sets? I wanted her to get the doll, just because that added to the cash from last season would be quite a profit off of the devil.

 

Maze and Linda having drinks next week! YES!

[jewel21]

Sadly, and to my surprise, I wasn't feeling this episode. I think the only parts I really enjoyed was Amendude apologizing to Linda, and the scene where we see the feathers on his wings falling off.

I did like Lucifer buying Trixie the doll, though. And I like that it came with chocolate cake and he acknowledged that that was Trixie's favourite. Aww, he remembered!

[Delphi]

I'm not sure how I feel.   I think this season has very strong potential to go really well or the opposite. 

I'm glad that I figured out that Amenadiel's fallen from grace due to his bad decisions last season. 

Mom was funny, but much like the new cop girl, small doses may be best. 

Maze was awesome.   I'm here for her.   

Great moment: luci stealing coke from the police. 

[Rosiejuliemom]

10 hours ago, Delphi said:

  Great moment: luci stealing coke from the police. 

That moment was great, but I preferred the coke in the garment bag. Ellis's face and "Cocaine!" was giving me momentary Dr. Rockso vibes and I enjoyed that.

So mum used the credit card to purchase what looked like thousands of dollars worth of cheese? Her meat sack is going to be pretty bound up. 

Edit: NVM, she apparently used the cheese for the cheesy noodles.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Rosiejuliemom
coffee allows jokes to hit me in the nose rather than fly over my head

[missbonnie]

God I love this show so much. I have to say that I lol'd at the line "Did she tell you that she was bonking her assistant Bradley?"  Tom Ellis's delivery never fails to crack me up. 

[Jlina]

I don't think it was sexist to cast a hot young mom, in Lucifer's world they are all hot and young.  Chloe looking like death warmed over being the exception.

In the same way I watched Revenge for the clothes, I can enjoy the bar, the car and the women (Maze - wowzer tonite!) all belonging to that great fantasy world.  In that sense, having an old, fat, man be his mother would be ludicrous.  Plus he is being humanized and no matter how much intellectually he is not falling for the wounded bird act, it was a pretty quick fall, or partial fall - helped I'm sure by her looking young and vulnerable and so unsure.  Just saying it's not a casting fail.

However, the show did make it seem it was random that she ended up in this body since the gang boy and other choice preceded it.  Good for them.

Gasping each time,  "I have to find Lucifer," threw me off as well - because the f*** you look to the heavens kind of negated it. 

I'm happy to wait and see as I haven't been disappointed to date. :)

Trixie rocked, the doll scene was hilarious, I thought they might have had her at the station as a faux interrogation?? It was set up like that. Chloe with the closed eye..omg, saw that coming.

The real emo of the night came courtesy of the browning, tattered wings.  The actor really sold the angst, it was heart rending.

I find Lucifer's personality refreshing and not necessarily contradicting being the "Big Bad," just being different because of...changes.

[pivot]

I think I need a refresher on the Bible. What rebellion? I can't remember why Lucifer got cast out of heaven. 

So, Mom's goal is to go back to heaven to live with her children minus Lucifer? 

[Rosiejuliemom]

1 minute ago, pivot said:

I think I need a refresher on the Bible. What rebellion? I can't remember why Lucifer got cast out of heaven.  

According to my Baptist Sunday school teacher, it was because he wanted to rule Heaven. Dunno if that is exactly right (her theological knowledge was flavored with a special kind of crazy). 1/3 of the angels rebelled with him, I believe, but the Bible doesn't explicitly state if they were cast out as well.

[LittleRed]

No sophmore slump as far as I can tell.  The show is off to a great start.

• Yay!  Trixie is back.  Loved how she was happy to hear him and how he upgraded her from Spawn to Offspring.  Also, loved that he tried to make her happy by buying her the doll along with chocolate cake.
• Maze and Mama Morningstar together were great together.  The two actresses worked really well together.
• Poor Amenadude.  His broken and tattered wings.

[solea]

What's up with Amendude's wings all tattered and disintegrating? What did I miss?

[GaT]

Chloe looked especially white & shiny this episode, nice work makeup people.

It feels like they upgraded Dan's part, not a good move

Not enough Dr Linda, not enough Maze.

[Jamoche]

I didn't notice any eye F/X when Lucifer pulled his mind whammy on the lawyer. At least, I assumed it was mind whammy and we've lost the F/X because it really did not work for me.

[Happy Harpy]

I couldn't agree more about male/female double standards and sexism in Hollywood; but here there's a twist for me since Tricia Helfer is 42, born 1974.  Check the birth year of the actresses/actors playing the main characters axed this year on several shows airing on CBS, the Nursing Home Network according to its naysayers, because they were deemed too old of creative differences. 

So I'm not going to cast any stone at the Lucifer showrunners for hiring an actress of 42 in the role of a strong, intelligent and sexy woman. They could have hired a twentysomething with the Reality TV looks, especially on FOX as @storyskip said above. They didn't. I consider it a victory against ageism. It's a battle, not the war, but it's still something.

I was more afraid that the character didn't live up to the hype but for me, Charlotte passed with flying colors. I'm not surprised anymore that they made Tricia Helfer a regular so early, she had great chemistry with Ellis and Brandt already. I don't want the Charlotte show, of course, but she fit and found the "Lucifer tone" from the get go imo.

And I loved the episode. Nice follow-up to Amenadude and Dr Linda, I really like how the writers try to have all their characters interact and develop a relationship. Also, nice move to go light on Ella. I like her better for not being shoved down my throat. The cast integration is one of the strengths of the show imo. *crossing fingers* May it last!

Also...TRIXIIIE! Trixie sighting! ITA @thuganomics85, the way her face lit when she heard Lucifer was great, and it made my episode. Or maybe it was Lucifer calling her a "shrewd little minx". Aww, he's so proud of her. Now can I get a real Trixifer scene soon?

Talking of proud, I loved how Lucifer looked at Chloe with pride and how Mom from Hell noticed. Still enjoy the partnership between Lucifer and Chloe. And T.Ellis was all around fantastic once more.

Now, seeing Amenadiel's wings in tatters shocked me about as much as Kimberly taking off her wig on Melrose Place back then. I think I yelped.

Can't wait for next week.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Happy Harpy
Endless battle against typos argh.

[Mabinogia]

Yay Trixie! As adorable as ever.

I can't tell you how much I love Dr. Linda, Shrink of the Damned! Really, this woman has no clue that she has screwed the devil, flirted with a falling angel and is now BFFs with a demon of hell. But she still manages to handle them all beautifully. I demand a spin off! I want to see what it is her and Maz chat about while out for drinks. haha

Amendiel...wow. That scene when he spread his wings gutted me. He just seemed so devastated. He's falling. Stat, call Dr. Linda for some intense angel therapy sessions!

I am not liking Charlotte. I thought Tricia was a better actress but her opening scene, when she first discovers she's in this human form was like watching a bad acting class. I could hear the director telling her "okay, now look up like you don't know where you are" etc. Everything she did felt cartoony to me. Don't even get me started on that last scene "okay, now look up at the camera like you're up to something. Smile wickedly". Oh well, at least now Chloe is not my least favorite character haha

[Delphi]

9 hours ago, pivot said:

I think I need a refresher on the Bible. What rebellion? I can't remember why Lucifer got cast out of heaven. 

I believe it was the sin of pride, if I recall correctly.   Lucifer was one of God's top angels and had the job of organizing worship of him.   But somewhere along the way I think he decided that he should get some worship as well and led a rebellion to get that.   But I also think he's led more than one to try to take control, as according to my catholic Sunday school he was still running around after the creation of man, trying to convince people that God had it wrong, such as Eve and Jesus.   And was still around to complain about Job to God. 

 

I think in the way this show is telling it that it could be really easy to frame as normal celestial teenage rebellion and God just overreacted. 

[dippydee]

This show is so much fun. I love everyone, even Detective/Sir Douche has his purpose.

Tricia Helfer is an excellent addition to the cast ,  I already love her with Maze but I need them to find some way to have her interact with Linda. Maybe some family therapy? 

[Bruinsfan]

On 10/2/2016 at 10:52 AM, Mabinogia said:

If they wanted to get really creative they could have thrown mother into man's body.

Well, they actually did at first, which I thought was a nice touch.

13 hours ago, gwhh said:

How BIG was that house the dead lady live in?  And how much was she earning BEFORE the coke deals to afford that house?

How could Maze clothes fit on mum?  Mum is 5 11 in height .  And maze is 5 7!!  No way those clothes fit each other??!!?

 

Charlotte was apparently the senior partner at a big successful LA law firm, so she should have been rolling in it. What I'm wondering is why there was no nanny or maid service to help Dad take care of things at home; both would be standard for the income level depicted.

And did you see HOW Maze's clothes fit Charlotte? It wouldn't surprise me if they actually did put Tricia Helfer in dresses that were originally bought for Lesley-Ann Brandt's frame.

I'm taking that final look upward to mean that Mom is totally playing Lucifer with the revelation that God meant to destroy him and she intervened in favor of imprisonment. That doesn't fit the narrative of God making Lucifer more human or accepting his deal to save Chloe in return for resuming his responsibilities. I think Lucifer's fall and consignment to Hell were exactly according to Dad's plan, and Mom is telling him otherwise in order to win his loyalty.

[storyskip]

I agree with @Bruinsfan on a couple of points.  I think the whole joke about the clothing was the fact that Maze's clothing is damn near tailored to her frame, and while it's stylish for her, it was a step beyond tramp when put on Charlotte/Mum.  My hope is that this was done deliberately so the show could address the fact that 'Mum' is in a hot body that normally Lucifer would be hitting on BUT since this is 'Mum' there is none of that going on.  In other words, this was a nod to the audiences' concerns about Mum being hot and the showrunners addressing it and getting it out of the way so that the narrative can continue without her sexy appearance being a distraction.

Because I also agree with Bruinsfan that I think Mum has completely played Lucifer and I'm not sure how I feel about this.  On the one hand, I think it was beautifully scripted and wonderfully acted.  I think Tricia did a masterful job of balancing sincerity in her plea to Lucifer, with that wicked and knowing look upward at the end.  I think that the script did a beautiful job of nodding back to it's own Season One habit of mirroring Lucifer's struggles with 'Dad' to the human struggle in the case of the week.  Thinking specifically about the episode 'Pops' and the parallels there.

I was totally sucked into that storytelling trope and buying the parallel of Chloe being hard on Trixie about the doll and the whole "sometimes parents do things their children don't like for their children's benefit"  so when Mum sold her story of "Lucifer, I sent you to hell to protect you" I was about to take a big bite out of the hook but then she shot that look up towards "Dad" and I stopped and went, "Wait, did I almost do what Luci's done?"

Lucifer was saying over and over that Mum is a masterful liar, manipulator and he was all "BE ON GUARD!!"  But then she played him and got him to break his promise to "Dad", something Lucifer always insisted in Season One he never did; fail on a debt.   And the writers and acting almost got me, as an audience member, to bite into that hook of "Oh, she did something he didn't like for his own good"/sympathetic to her, narrative.  But looking back on it, I think that's too simple.

So from all these perspectives, I say WELL DONE SHOW AND ACTORS!!! 

BUT!  I don't know how I feel about this narrative direction.  Something I always liked about the Lucifer this show is based on, was the fact that he is an incredibly clever, cunning bastard who always had a long game in motion and pulled threads to him even when it seemed it didn't fit.  He was his father's son, and Dad was usually 3 chess moves ahead of him but Lucifer was still 10 chess moves ahead of anyone else.

I know that this show has stepped away from it's source material and I understand that it is now it's own entity, but I have to admit to missing that Lucifer.  Ellis does a masterful job with his Lucifer but I don't know how long I'll want to stick around for bumbling Lucipawn caught in Mum and Dad's game.  I actually found myself more interested in Amenideal struggling with his fall from Grace and the more serious side of that story, than Lucifer and Mum.

I will definitely be here to watch how things progress!  I just hope they don't keep on this particular track for too long.

[Happy Harpy]

44 minutes ago, storyskip said:

BUT!  I don't know how I feel about this narrative direction.  Something I always liked about the Lucifer this show is based on, was the fact that he is an incredibly clever, cunning bastard who always had a long game in motion and pulled threads to him even when it seemed it didn't fit.  He was his father's son, and Dad was usually 3 chess moves ahead of him but Lucifer was still 10 chess moves ahead of anyone else.

 

I think that Lucifer will wake up and smell the coffee in the end but onscreen, he will look like he buys what Mom is selling longer than he actually does until the "Haha!" reveal moment.  I wouldn't mind him being blinded for a while, if for example it allows a Maze/Chloe alliance against Mom. But yeah, I hope he'll keep his smarts. There's a kind of protagonist who might be insufferable but works better when they win all the time than when they loose all the time (example: House).

Question. Can "Dad" possess the body of someone who isn't dead? Because Trixie as God...could be so very very interesting as an inversion of the demon child trope that was discussed above.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Happy Harpy