S03.E03: Duggars in the Wild

[Marigny]

On 9/9/2016 at 9:30 AM, Rabbittron said:

I swear I have tried to watch Counting On but I can't get through the first minute before I want to throw something at the TV.

Right there with ya, babe! 

[Sew Sumi]

I can't tell y'all  how hard I rolled my eyes at that Sneak Peek. (More on that in the Juggalo thread, probably not best to talk about it here).

[becca3891]

On 9/7/2016 at 10:34 PM, Gemma Violet said:

My thoughts exactly.  I couldn't believe she was pining away for a newborn when she's got Spurgeon.  I hope she has all boys so she never has any helpers.  If Spurgeon was a girl, Jessa would begin the sister-mom training the day after birthing her second child.

It really makes you wonder what a Gothardite mom does when she has nothing but boys. Even if she has girls, though, realistically she won't get them to be very good at sister mom-ing until they're at least ten. That was the era when Michelle had her nervous breakdown type thing, and the beginning of the extra help they've been benefiting from ever since.

On 9/9/2016 at 9:30 AM, ShaNaeNae said:

It's getting creepy the way they let the girls blow off their whole life while in love.  They've done it with Jill, Jessa and now Jinger.  "Their mind isn't all there, they're in love.  So now chores for them".  The hell?  What do normal people who have to actually work a  job do when they're in love? Can I tell my boss, "sorry I'm not all here, I'm on another planet.  I didn't turn in the project we've been working on for 6 months.  I know the company can't continue to thrive until I turn this in, but there's this guy.  I can't let 10 minutes go by and I need to FaceTime him.  I totally hope you get it".  These people do just exist in their little bubble of a world. 

Jinger you are a stage 5 clinger.  It's creepy.  Don't do that.  It's a turn off.  Get a self identity.  Also, on the commercial don't call yourself a "traveler".  Yes, TLC has paid for a few trips for your family.  But anyone who makes faces at others customs, screeches, "uhhh, GROSS!" at their foods and doesn't take the time to learn a few basic sentences in the language of the country you're visiting isn't a real traveler.

I'm just over these people. 

This REALLY, REALLY bothers me too. Do they know how bizarre it is to be 23 years old, with no job, no hobbies, and nothing to do but obnoxiously cling to your boyfriend/fiance in a sickly sweet way? Really, you can't cook a simple meal or use a broom while in love? So she spends all day glued to her phone texting him. Now that's healthy. I found it sad to see how she ignored her sisters at the stupid survival camping place, in favor of endless pointless conversations with Jeremy. What the heck could she even find to talk about with him? When the puppy love wears off in a year or two, she's going to regret totally dumping her relationships with her sisters.

[ginger90]

Jinger and the texting etc was creepy. Why was Jeremy available all of that time?  Both of them glued to their phones. Breathe people, long distance.

[BitterApple]

3 hours ago, ginger90 said:

Jinger and the texting etc was creepy. Why was Jeremy available all of that time?  Both of them glued to their phones. Breathe people, long distance.

That's why I think Jeremy is running some sort of long con. Most guys wouldn't be available all the time. Even running some crappy offshoot church, there must be times during the day where Jeremy has to get out and do something. He's had normal dating relationships. No offense to Jinger but I find it hard to believe she's so fascinating, witty and intriguing that Jeremy can't bear to go five minutes without talking to her.

[Chicklet]

I'd love to ask Michelle why the girls can be absolved of all duties "while in love". So does this mean that women don't love their partners when they start doing household chores again? It means that, doesn't it? (trying to think like these people makes my brain hurt.)

[Rabbittron]

When I first saw this title i thought it was going to be all the littles running amuck in the tinker toy house.

[Minivanessa]

41 minutes ago, Chicklet said:

I'd love to ask Michelle why the girls can be absolved of all duties "while in love". So does this mean that women don't love their partners when they start doing household chores again? It means that, doesn't it? (trying to think like these people makes my brain hurt.)

Well, MEchelle doesn't do shit around the house, so I suppose that means she loves her husband?

Yeah. You're right. This kind of discussion is too crazy-making to mess with for more than a minute.

[cereality]

I want to know what there is text about constantly. I mean I text a lot with my friends but it is always discussions starting with whatever weird thing happened that day - bc we have jobs, leave our home, live in NYC/DC where there's always random stuff happening on the streets; are you watching Real Housewives - OMG Teresa is insane; are you watching this football game - turn it on right now, this QB is amazing; can you believe Trump/Clinton just said x. We all know that NONE of those topics applies to Jinger. Maybe she has some idea re the Razorbacks due to her brother in law but even then I'd venture to guess that the females can't be talking about football in any detail bc it's unlady-like for women folk to know that much about competitive sports. But it's not like she's leaving the home and interacting with anyone else so it's not like she can say - hey I was talking to Joann at work and did you know . . . .

I mean how long can -- I LOVE you, no I LOVE you, I can't wait until we're married  -- possibly take? Sometimes you can get to know each other by text so maybe there's some of that going on but even that'll be at a superficial level like favorite foods or colors or whatever. I can't imagine any discussion re how many kids do you want, would you oppose if I worked outside the home, if I worked how would we split housework or whatever -- bc you know, GOD and headship. She is likely playing the same role that Jilly Muffin is playing as wifey, when Deric asked -- what are your goals for this year, and Jilly said -- the same as yours, what are yours?? It doesn't even occur to them that they could/should have interests or goals in anything besides whatever the husband's interests are.

[Arwen Evenstar]

My heart sank a lot for Jill after that scene. She's never really acknowledged her own personhood, because she's never been allowed to consider it, because...headship.

The idea of having her own goals and dreams besides having another bloody baby seems somewhat alien to her.

[Marigold]

7 hours ago, BitterApple said:

That's why I think Jeremy is running some sort of long con. Most guys wouldn't be available all the time. Even running some crappy offshoot church, there must be times during the day where Jeremy has to get out and do something. He's had normal dating relationships. No offense to Jinger but I find it hard to believe she's so fascinating, witty and intriguing that Jeremy can't bear to go five minutes without talking to her.

I agree.  Something is way off with Jeremy. 

[cereality]

Where's wise old JB and all the brothers who are checking out the guy? I almost don't blame the girls (almost). They are so sheltered and isolated and SOOO excited when they see a future (i.e. I will get to leave the TTH and live my own life bc a guy arrived) and SO stoked just to have a "friend" that is theirs bc they never even had that growing up -- that I can see them not noticing/caring about hmmm -- this guy is ALWAYS available ANYTIME I want to talk or text, doesn't he have a JOB? But shouldn't wise old JB notice that all of this prospective sons in law (Bin and Jeremy) have been REALLY REALLY way TOO available? Or how about the brothers who have anointed themselves to be their sisters protectors who are checking out the guy!? It doesn't bode well with respect to being able to make a living and provide for your daughter if your son in law seems to have no work obligations whatsoever. Sure most people in relationships will text throughout the day these days -- but it's on and off -- and sometimes they don't touch base at all bc they are in a deposition all day or in surgery or clinic with patients or on a job site or whatever. And most couples will save their longer FaceTime kind of chats until the evening or even weekends. I mean I have broken up with people before bc they were SO available they expected me to talk/text multiple times a day and then be done working at 5 pm and then they flipped out when I clarified that I can't be texting while writing a brief and sometimes there are 8 pm conference calls and I can't just pull the -- sorry I've worked 8 hrs today thing. I'd venture to guess Jinger would flip out if Jer was unavailable for a WHOLE day bc he had to say go do ministry in a prison or someplace where you can't walk around with a phone in your face.

[Vaysh]

Quote

I want to know what there is text about constantly.

If anything like Jill and Jessa's pre-marriage convos with their intendeds: favourite bible verses and sermon recommendations.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Vaysh

[Arwen Evenstar]

19 minutes ago, Vaysh said:

If anything like Jill and Jessa's pre-marriage convos with their intendeds: favourite bible verses and sermon recommendations.

Yawn!!! That's not really a conversation, IMO, but rather passing on extra reading material. Nothing wrong with Bible verses and sermons at all, if that's important to the couple, but it's also important to talk about finances, roles, responsibilities, family dynamics, dreams, goals, and expectations...

[NewDigs]

53 minutes ago, cereality said:

Where's wise old JB and all the brothers who are checking out the guy? I almost don't blame the girls (almost). They are so sheltered and isolated and SOOO excited when they see a future (i.e. I will get to leave the TTH and live my own life bc a guy arrived) and SO stoked just to have a "friend" that is theirs bc they never even had that growing up -- that I can see them not noticing/caring about hmmm -- this guy is ALWAYS available ANYTIME I want to talk or text, doesn't he have a JOB? But shouldn't wise old JB notice that all of this prospective sons in law (Bin and Jeremy) have been REALLY REALLY way TOO available?

Maybe it's so hard to find proper suitors that dare only dig so deep.

And available? All the time? 

Probably part of the "job" description.

I have absolutely no clue why the girls seem so thrilled. Wilfull ignorance? All I got.

[Vaysh]

Quote

Yawn!!! That's not really a conversation, IMO, but rather passing on extra reading material. Nothing wrong with Bible verses and sermons at all, if that's important to the couple, but it's also important to talk about finances, roles, responsibilities, family dynamics, dreams, goals, and expectations...

I agree. And the saddest thing is that they won't have a chance to talk about any of those things before they get married because they are always surrounded by snooping family members. How can you have any kind of honest discussion about your future life together if you've got a parent or sibling hanging over your shoulder, constantly monitoring you to make sure you say the right things. Their courtship model is so fucked up.

[Marigold]

Jeremy and Jinger are getting different rules than Jill & Derick.  Jinger is facetiming without any supervision.  No one was paying any attention to them on the bus, the woods etc.  

[Tabbygirl521]

Isn't a change in Duggar rules if Jinger is allowed to text Jeremy without anyone censoring what they're saying? If she's actually free to say what she wants, when she wants, without an accountability partner, no wonder she's going crazy with it. Freedom is intoxicating. 

ETA: Marigold, I overlooked your post! Great minds...

Edited September 12, 2016 by Tabbygirl521

[Sew Sumi]

Could be group texts, although Benessa have now admitted that they texted at night ALL BY THEMSELVES!!!!1111

Mechelle must have had a major Xanax moment am when that confession came to light. I recall that Jerick were only allowed to group text.

[Marigold]

I think Jeremy is getting more freedom because he is not a kidult. Jim Bob is a bit intimidated.  I also think Jeremy is a nutcase. 

Michelle and Jim Bob are so F-ed up from this Vile Josh mess, that they are not paying any attention to what the hell is going on in their own home anymore. It's free range Duggars, including Jinger. I'm not sure Michelle can really function any more.  What Jinger is facetiming Jeremy is off the radar at this point.  

[cereality]

Didn't realize Bin and Jessa texted BY THEMSELVES!? Ooooh the scandal . . . . When did they admit this??

But really how hard is it to get around parents these days? Ask any 10 yr old and they'll tell you mom and dad don't understand technology. How hard is it to set up a group chat with your intended + mom/dad. You use that one for "nice" non controversial discussion like -- how's the weather in Laredo; here's this Bible verse I woke up thinking about; what's your favorite color. Mom and Dad think you're all wholesome. And then you have another text that's just you + your intended -- where you can talk about how you want to use birth control [gasp] bc you have watched your sisters' births and can't bear to push out 15 kids; you do or don't want to move to Texas and is he ok with that etc. You know -- the actual things that people talk about before marriage. How would mom and dad ever know? If you're super paranoid and think they/a sibling will grab your phone to check, keep deleting off the texts after you respond so they won't see all your views on life, love, and marriage . . . .

[Sew Sumi]

Benessa admitted the private conversations in an updated chapter of the girls' wretched book on "relationships."

[cereality]

I'd respect the "alone@ conversation more if it meant that any one of the daughters stood up for anything they wanted in the marriage even once. As in - I intend to go to online college after marriage; or I honestly don't see myself birthing more than 2-4 times so we may end up on BC; or I do/don't want to end up in Texas, overseas etc - so if that's a problem for you, speak now.

Though knowing the Duggar girls and their desperation to escape, they dare not say anything expressing any type of opinion which could possibly be contrary to their loser boyfriend's wishes, lest they scare said loser boyfriend away. Yet it appears to quietly be happening in other fundie families. One of the Bates sons in law was raised in the same patriarchal culture and gainfully employed in Okla, yet he moves to Tenn to court a Bates daughter, stays so she can finish college and lo and behold 3+ yrs and 2 kids later, he's still in Tenn. Clearly that daughter stood up for herself and let her preference for staying close to home be known and her husband decided he was willing . . . .

[Tabbygirl521]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

Benessa admitted the private conversations in an updated chapter of the girls' wretched book on "relationships."

Was she regretting them, or saying she thought that was an OK thing to do?

[kokapetl]

Who brings a rake on their forest walks?  

[queenanne]

1 hour ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Was she regretting them, or saying she thought that was an OK thing to do?

She probably blamed Bin for applying undue pressure and de facto forcing her into it.  

[tabloidlover]

11 hours ago, Marigold said:

Jeremy and Jinger are getting different rules than Jill & Derick.  Jinger is facetiming without any supervision.  No one was paying any attention to them on the bus, the woods etc.  

 

11 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Isn't a change in Duggar rules if Jinger is allowed to text Jeremy without anyone censoring what they're saying? If she's actually free to say what she wants, when she wants, without an accountability partner, no wonder she's going crazy with it. Freedom is intoxicating. 

ETA: Marigold, I overlooked your post! Great minds...

 

10 hours ago, Marigold said:

I think Jeremy is getting more freedom because he is not a kidult. Jim Bob is a bit intimidated.  I also think Jeremy is a nutcase. 

Michelle and Jim Bob are so F-ed up from this Vile Josh mess, that they are not paying any attention to what the hell is going on in their own home anymore. It's free range Duggars, including Jinger. I'm not sure Michelle can really function any more.  What Jinger is facetiming Jeremy is off the radar at this point.  

Pretty certain that Jeremy and Jinger are getting more freedom for several reasons.  Biggest of which is that JB clearly understands they needed a storyline to keep the checks rolling in.   Another factor being that Jeremy probably wasn't willing to go along with ALL of the Duggar's stupid courtship rules - you know  - since he is pushing 30 and has been around the block a few times.  Boob wants the tv show to continue, he knows he's got to play ball, so to speak. 

As far as Clown Car goes, I think she is too far gone to pay too much attention. 

[Churchhoney]

14 hours ago, cereality said:

Where's wise old JB and all the brothers who are checking out the guy? I almost don't blame the girls (almost). They are so sheltered and isolated and SOOO excited when they see a future (i.e. I will get to leave the TTH and live my own life bc a guy arrived) and SO stoked just to have a "friend" that is theirs bc they never even had that growing up -- that I can see them not noticing/caring about hmmm -- this guy is ALWAYS available ANYTIME I want to talk or text, doesn't he have a JOB? But shouldn't wise old JB notice that all of this prospective sons in law (Bin and Jeremy) have been REALLY REALLY way TOO available? Or how about the brothers who have anointed themselves to be their sisters protectors who are checking out the guy!? It doesn't bode well with respect to being able to make a living and provide for your daughter if your son in law seems to have no work obligations whatsoever. Sure most people in relationships will text throughout the day these days -- but it's on and off -- and sometimes they don't touch base at all bc they are in a deposition all day or in surgery or clinic with patients or on a job site or whatever. And most couples will save their longer FaceTime kind of chats until the evening or even weekends. I mean I have broken up with people before bc they were SO available they expected me to talk/text multiple times a day and then be done working at 5 pm and then they flipped out when I clarified that I can't be texting while writing a brief and sometimes there are 8 pm conference calls and I can't just pull the -- sorry I've worked 8 hrs today thing. I'd venture to guess Jinger would flip out if Jer was unavailable for a WHOLE day bc he had to say go do ministry in a prison or someplace where you can't walk around with a phone in your face.

Well, we know what happened when Derick went to his Walmart office for the day.

Living in that family where everybody's chained together for accountability's sake gives people very strange expectations.

And for whatever reason, it appears that Jeremy's playing the game.

[Churchhoney]

13 hours ago, NewDigs said:

I have absolutely no clue why the girls seem so thrilled. Wilfull ignorance? All I got.

I have a feeling it's more like true, actual ignorance. Reinforced by their being utterly brainwashed into a lifestyle in which everybody is chained together at all times because that's supposedly the only acceptable "godly" way to live. These are people who can't go to the supermarket alone. And they clearly accept that as a reasonable norm. So I don't think they need to deny anything or whatever to buy this situation. They have every reason to believe that it's perfectly normal.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Churchhoney

[NewDigs]

48 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I have a feeling it's more like true, actual ignorance. Reinforced by their being utterly brainwashed into a lifestyle in which everybody is chained together at all times because that's supposedly the only acceptable "godly" way to live. These are people who can't go to the supermarket alone. And they clearly accept that as a reasonable norm. So I don't think they need to deny anything or whatever to buy this situation. They have every reason to believe that it's perfectly normal.

Yeah. I'm sure you're right.

I keep trying to raise the bar for these unfortunates. Keep hoping that even their negligible interactions with the TLC crews and their teevee activities will open their minds.

You'd think they'd maybe even notice differences with other fundamentalist cults families. But they don't see it.

Sad.

[Rabbittron]

10 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Benessa admitted the private conversations in an updated chapter of the girls' wretched book on "relationships."

Why do I call Bullshit on this statement? 

[Whyyouneedaname]

On 9/11/2016 at 5:56 AM, becca3891 said:

It really makes you wonder what a Gothardite mom does when she has nothing but boys. Even if she has girls, though, realistically she won't get them to be very good at sister mom-ing until they're at least ten. That was the era when Michelle had her nervous breakdown type thing, and the beginning of the extra help they've been benefiting from ever since.

This REALLY, REALLY bothers me too. Do they know how bizarre it is to be 23 years old, with no job, no hobbies, and nothing to do but obnoxiously cling to your boyfriend/fiance in a sickly sweet way? Really, you can't cook a simple meal or use a broom while in love? So she spends all day glued to her phone texting him. Now that's healthy. I found it sad to see how she ignored her sisters at the stupid survival camping place, in favor of endless pointless conversations with Jeremy. What the heck could she even find to talk about with him? When the puppy love wears off in a year or two, she's going to regret totally dumping her relationships with her sisters.

Do they see this as the training to be "joyfully available at all times" as in don't keep your man waiting for anything???? puke 

[NewDigs]

8 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Who brings a rake on their forest walks?  

Apparently, people who can't be arsed to mop their own floors.

[Sew Sumi]

11 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Was she regretting them, or saying she thought that was an OK thing to do?

I don't think anyone took one for the team and actually read this new addition to the book. AFAIK, they didn't remark on whether it was OK or not, but I would guess that they would defend it by saying that they "make their own courtship rules." Boob and Mechelle really painted themselves into a corner with that one, as it presents quite a slippery slope as each couple seems to be getting more bold normal in their communication choices. 

[BitterApple]

I actually downloaded a sample of the book on my Kindle and was embarrassed at how juvenile the girls came off. The only parts I remember were Jill being jealous of Jessa and Jessa being jealous of a friend who was praised over her at a birthday party. They really do have the mindset of seventh grade girls, it's crazy.

[Sew Sumi]

15 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I actually downloaded a sample of the book on my Kindle and was embarrassed at how juvenile the girls came off. The only parts I remember were Jill being jealous of Jessa and Jessa being jealous of a friend who was praised over her at a birthday party. They really do have the mindset of seventh grade girls, it's crazy.

I actually read the entire book in about 2 hours (if that). They seriously thought they knew it all when it came to relationships although none of them had even been "getting to know" a future spouse when they "wrote" it. I think the birthday party scene was Jessa being jealous of the girls being better dressed than she was. Which being Jessa, is actually believable, since she wants to be the star at every occasion. 

[Natalie68]

Finally watched the episode from last week.  I am actually embarrassed for my 14 year old self if I acted anywhere near like Jinger acted.  I offer this apology to anyone that knew me 34 years ago.  

Jeremy is weird.  Not only does he act weird and but anyone that has lived a REAL OUTSIDE life who perhaps actually touched a woman he isn't related to wouldn't be attracted to Jinger and her prepubescent self.  It seems like I am watching a show on child brides from Colorado City.  If he has that much time to text/facetime at his age its curious and creepy.  He should be working since he will soon have a bride and a bazillion children to raise.  Not to mention entertaining the beastly Duggars whenever they feel like dropping by.

The survival training?  Seriously why?  These girls are never going to be in the woods alone without her headship so why?  There had to be a website or brochure telling you how to prepare so why did they dress like they were going to Starbucks or a wedding (seriously they dress the same in every situation)?  And it does nothing for the credibility of the program if they ALLOWED people to participate who were so unprepared.  Liability anyone?  This family is very disrespectful as well.  If its not your thing stay home.  Or is being around the youngest Duggars and parents SO awful that you will willingly go into the woods unprepared?  I would not have been surprised to see Papa Johns or Dominos deliver to these baboons.

Jill is losing whatever grip on reality she had.  It is obvious to me all they chat about is jesus, god, giant white baby, getting another giant white baby, maybe or maybe not in that order.  Her eyes have no light.  None.  She doesn't seem as into her baby as I would expect.  Really seemed bugged that Izzy was on their honeymoon.  Maybe it is what I expected to see but did I see clouds of stuff coming off of them in the pool?  It looked like they were using the giant bathtub (as described to Izzy) as their ACTUAL bath.  Derrick looks like he smells.  Badly.  I don't see chemistry between them.  I think Jill fell hard for the koolaid and is having a bit of a wtf moment.  At least Jess and Bin look like they WANT to knock boots.  I think Jill is only truly happy in the TTH tending to others children.  Real life got too real and it isn't what she expected.  Virgin to first kiss to pregnant all in 3 weeks followed by the Josh issues followed by moving to Danger America.  If that happened to me I would need copious amount of meds.

[OpieTaylor]

28 minutes ago, Natalie68 said:

Jill is losing whatever grip on reality she had.  It is obvious to me all they chat about is jesus, god, giant white baby, getting another giant white baby, maybe or maybe not in that order.  Her eyes have no light.  None.  She doesn't seem as into her baby as I would expect.  Really seemed bugged that Izzy was on their honeymoon.  Maybe it is what I expected to see but did I see clouds of stuff coming off of them in the pool?  It looked like they were using the giant bathtub (as described to Izzy) as their ACTUAL bath.  Derrick looks like he smells.  Badly.  I don't see chemistry between them.  I think Jill fell hard for the koolaid and is having a bit of a wtf moment.  At least Jess and Bin look like they WANT to knock boots.  I think Jill is only truly happy in the TTH tending to others children.  Real life got too real and it isn't what she expected.  Virgin to first kiss to pregnant all in 3 weeks followed by the Josh issues followed by moving to Danger America.  If that happened to me I would need copious amount of meds.

Wow, when you put it like that, it is shocking. And in Jill's talking heads now, you're right that her eyes have no light.  Crestfallen is the perfect word: sad and disappointed.  

When Derick was saying that he was going to get his "Masters and PhD in Jill," she looked almost hurt, as if they may be having a difficult time together, and Derick is having trouble figuring her out. When Jill's only specified goal is to have another baby - and she gave Derick a look when she said it - does that mean that they haven't been engaging in sweet fellowship? 

[Evagirl]

It's official - they are engaged:

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/jinger-duggar-engaged-to-jeremy-vuolo-after-whirlwind-courtship-w430944

I honestly hope it works out for them.  However, I'm afraid that Jeremy is just into this for the novelty effect.  There is no way an almost 30-year-"normal" man can tolerate Jinger's immaturity forever.  But then again, perhaps being married to Jeremy means they won't be living near the Duggar compound and they'll build a life starting with just the two of them.  My hope is that she doesn't get pregnant right away, take a year at least with just the two of them to really get to know one another.  I think that was Ben & Jessa's problem.  He was in lust, she just wanted marriage and a baby-anybody halfway decent would do.  They didn't really get to know one another before Spurg was on the scene.   They were rarely, if ever alone - how could they get to know each other?

If Jinger and Jeremy move away and he starts showing her what the other side of life is about, maybe just maybe she'll start growing up.  I don't think Jeremy will have a household without a TV or never take his wife to the movies or never not just take a trip just for fun.  If she stays close to the clan/TLC, she'll always be emotionally and socially stunted.   There is hope.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Evagirl

[BitterApple]

Jill and Derick got engaged right after he returned from Nepal, correct? So that means they basically spent a total of two weeks in each others' presence before deciding they should marry. They had missions in common and felt that was all they needed to make a potentially 40+ year relationship successful. 

I think Jill is realizing she might have made a mistake in jumping the gun so quickly. When Jana made that comment about "not marrying the first guy who comes along," I thought that was a pretty direct shot at her sisters, who all rushed into relationships. To hear these girls tell it, if a guy holds the door open for them at Starbucks, he must be The One. 

[Natalie68]

The other thing is these kids are not getting to experience the 1st make out session that normal teens have.  I know when I first kissed someone I certainly was not ready for sex.  I just think that is sad because who can forget the butterflies and excitement of being alone for the first time without pressure of baby making?   It really short changes these kids.  You don't have to sample others but jeez at least get used to kissing each other before the whole shebang takes place.  It also might have helped to know before the wedding night if there were any moves or touches that brought back horrendous memories.  

I do think this could have done a number on Jill.  She had zero experience with men and had been molested by her brother with no help.  Sex before marriage is shameful as well as anything to do with the body besides side hugs.  And in the span of a few hours she goes from her first awkward kiss to intercourse to baby.  Her body and will has never been her own.

[Marigold]

Wow.

If you scroll through, every single one of us thinks Jill is either sad, depressed or traumatized.  Or all three. 

[awaken]

1 hour ago, Evagirl said:

It's official - they are engaged:

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/jinger-duggar-engaged-to-jeremy-vuolo-after-whirlwind-courtship-w430944

I honestly hope it works out for them.  However, I'm afraid that Jeremy is just into this for the novelty effect.  There is no way an almost 30-year-"normal" man can tolerate Jinger's immaturity forever.  But then again, perhaps being married to Jeremy means they won't be living near the Duggar compound and they'll build a life starting with just the two of them.  My hope is that she doesn't get pregnant right away, take a year at least with just the two of them to really get to know one another.  I think that was Ben & Jessa's problem.  He was in lust, she just wanted marriage and a baby-anybody halfway decent would do.  They didn't really get to know one another before Spurg was on the scene.   They were rarely, if ever alone - how could they get to know each other?

If Jinger and Jeremy move away and he starts showing her what the other side of life is about, maybe just maybe she'll start growing up.  I don't think Jeremy will have a household without a TV or never take his wife to the movies or never not just take a trip just for fun.  If she stays close to the clan/TLC, she'll always be emotionally and socially stunted.   There is hope.

Wait. I thought we knew they were engaged already?  The NYC pics, drab brown sweater, Jeremy in his toddler tee, the Popsicles and all?

[Evagirl]

1 hour ago, awaken said:

Wait. I thought we knew they were engaged already?  The NYC pics, drab brown sweater, Jeremy in his toddler tee, the Popsicles and all?

I guess I missed that part.  I just heard about it today that they got engaged in July.  I'm always behind in the news.

[tenativelyyours]

7 hours ago, Natalie68 said:

Finally watched the episode from last week.  I am actually embarrassed for my 14 year old self if I acted anywhere near like Jinger acted.  I offer this apology to anyone that knew me 34 years ago.  

Jeremy is weird.  Not only does he act weird and but anyone that has lived a REAL OUTSIDE life who perhaps actually touched a woman he isn't related to wouldn't be attracted to Jinger and her prepubescent self.  It seems like I am watching a show on child brides from Colorado City.  If he has that much time to text/facetime at his age its curious and creepy.  He should be working since he will soon have a bride and a bazillion children to raise.  Not to mention entertaining the beastly Duggars whenever they feel like dropping by.

The survival training?  Seriously why?  These girls are never going to be in the woods alone without her headship so why?  There had to be a website or brochure telling you how to prepare so why did they dress like they were going to Starbucks or a wedding (seriously they dress the same in every situation)?  And it does nothing for the credibility of the program if they ALLOWED people to participate who were so unprepared.  Liability anyone?  This family is very disrespectful as well.  If its not your thing stay home.  Or is being around the youngest Duggars and parents SO awful that you will willingly go into the woods unprepared?  I would not have been surprised to see Papa Johns or Dominos deliver to these baboons.

Jill is losing whatever grip on reality she had.  It is obvious to me all they chat about is jesus, god, giant white baby, getting another giant white baby, maybe or maybe not in that order.  Her eyes have no light.  None.  She doesn't seem as into her baby as I would expect.  Really seemed bugged that Izzy was on their honeymoon.  Maybe it is what I expected to see but did I see clouds of stuff coming off of them in the pool?  It looked like they were using the giant bathtub (as described to Izzy) as their ACTUAL bath.  Derrick looks like he smells.  Badly.  I don't see chemistry between them.  I think Jill fell hard for the koolaid and is having a bit of a wtf moment.  At least Jess and Bin look like they WANT to knock boots.  I think Jill is only truly happy in the TTH tending to others children.  Real life got too real and it isn't what she expected.  Virgin to first kiss to pregnant all in 3 weeks followed by the Josh issues followed by moving to Danger America.  If that happened to me I would need copious amount of meds.

 

Jeremy:  That is what I kept having a sense of when he is on.  That if he had some money and had stayed in the Philly/NJ area people would be mocking him on the TLC married in 90 days forum or that show about mail order brides that used to be.  Wasn't it an extension of that MTV documentary series episode?   Creepy and sad stuff.  Jinjer is basically his mail order bride.  But thanks to the scandal and the need to re-brand the family as little as they can but as much as they have to to stay on air, he gets a deal.

 

Jill:  I really think some of her anxiety/stress we are seeing is that she knows their expiration date for Danger America is close but not that close yet and I wonder if Derrick expressed reluctance to leave. Even as Jill was mentally packing up and heading home to a triumphant return from "overseas" and a likely pregnancy to trump anything the others had in the works for camera time and social media attention.  I tend to think that some of her wobbly emotions had to do with a realization that she is not married to someone who shares the exact same view of the future for their family.   I think he was glad to see his family and probably have someone to actually talk to about, well, stuff.  The pics posted in their thread show him identifying with his college days and the start of college football season and those two small but so ubiquitous general themes so many of us are either attached to or just understand and realize what with it being September are totally foreign to his wife when you think about it.   I think the brief glimpse of Derrick we get in his social media since their return still shows how much broader his life has been and always will be compared to his wife. And here she is.  Maybe depressed already from either not being pregnant or having to wait until back in Arkansas; maybe feeling isolated and even at risk (more in her imagination) being the one who is different after living her whole life as a member of a group that really was and still is so incredibly insular even as she was fooled into thinking how capable and better than everyone else she and her family were.  But there is just something about her break from comfort we see that speaks to more internal problems than any outside threat for some reason.  Maybe something about their location or the people around them scared her, but the actual emotional break seems to be a bit more complete than a single scare might induce. 

 

My prediction is that Jill will get pregnant again if she isn't already (did I miss the official announcement?) and Derrick will take that as an opportunity to go abroad on a short "mission" of a couple of weeks.  I think he is already a bit wearied of the woman he let himself be arranged to marry really and then has to play a Disney Fairy Tale Come True Prince on tv.  I think that is a problem that being away has handed Jill that Jessa hasn't had to face.  Yet.  That the weird dynamic Jim Boob has basically crafted with marrying off his children, and especially his daughters for money and fame.

On one hand there is this old fashioned patriarchal aspect that really is nothing but a bolster to Jim Boob's ego.  Then there is the weird narcissism of 'God' picking out your future spouse.  It completely removes any idea of real thought or analysis of the person you are marrying, because each step further cements the idea it is divine will.  It also taps into the whole so special being a Duggar because God deigned to decide your personal future with basically no free will.  And therefore no real responsibility either.  And then they top it off with a cherry grown on a Disney Princess Tree and picked by Harlequin Romance.  This odd "we're so in love" the whole time between the engagement and the wedding when their own premise belies the fact that they really even know each other.  They know of each other.  Not they have no clue to anything deeper than the fact they are now "in love" because.  Well they are.  A switch is flipped from courting to a marrying we go and that's that.  Jinjer is doing the same thing only even harder because I suspect in part because Jeremy's ego demands it and she is responding to that even if she doesn't realize it.

I also think Jim Boob is guiding it a bit because they so want to prove everyone wrong who victimized them so much by not letting them sweep their sins they claimed they never had and condemned others for right under the rug.   I think a lot of the "rules" we see broken or just not observed could easily be to paint a different picture than pre-vile perv Josh revelations allowed.  They need to distance themselves somewhat from the same recipe that produced a married Josh who then went social media perving for all to see.  And in Jeremy they someone very willing to cast himself as the Fundie Prince Charming. 

I think Jim Boob thought he was bringing in a God blessed version of the bachelor in Jeremy.  Worldly and appearing more mainstream and part of the "better" life (pro-athlete) and yet still one of them.  I think in the long run he is in for a surprise.  I think Jeremy sees marrying Jinjer as his stepping stone.  Not his defining moment.  And Jim Boob is someone he is all too willing and even eager to leave behind in his journey for attention and validation.  He has gone from professional sports where he was part of a select group and when that didn't work out, he tries to spin it as him being "better" than all that and yet all he did was trade sports for religion because like so many extremist fundies, he uses religion and god as a narcissistic tool to elevate himself.  He is the one leading others to god.  And even in his admissions of a sinly past he is one upping everyone else.  Because part of the implication is he has reached a greater purity than others.  He is better than others.  And that is something that should raise concerns among any Duggars that care about Jinjer in my opinion.  Jeremy has shown that he wants to be among the select.   The admired few that others can only aspire to and never achieve.  So Jinjer being part of a 19 piece matched set?  I think he will use the Duggars as hard and as much as he can and the minute he can no longer do so, Jinjer loses the appeal of aspiration and instead simply becomes his meek wife. 

[Magoo]

On September 11, 2016 at 4:23 PM, NewDigs said:

Maybe it's so hard to find proper suitors that dare only dig so deep.

And available? All the time? 

Probably part of the "job" description.

I have absolutely no clue why the girls seem so thrilled. Wilfull ignorance? All I got.

I agree with Churchie (as usual. :-) This is what has been modeled to them in their small world by Boob. He "works" by getting himself involved with businesses where he buys something - property, radio towers, etc. and sits back and collects money. There is no office for him to go to every day, no clients to see, nothing to do but put his free, unskilled labor force of offspring to work doing tasks they are in no way experienced enough to take on, like "remodeling" houses. Dad is around 24/7 so this is what they think is normal and expected from their own spouses. They have no idea how the real world works. Everything is about them. Everything. So insular. So isolated. The best thing Jeremy could do is get and keep Jinger away from that house forever.  I don't have high hopes that there will be a major life change for her because he seems pretty deep into the Kool-Aid, but since he didn't actually grow up brainwashed into the fundy, Gothard lifestyle there are bound to be more secular ideas and ways of life that he takes for granted and doesn't think about. Like having his own apartment and living alone. Going places by himself. Expecting Jinger to go places by herself like the grocery store or running errands.  Even if he thinks he's the same as the Duggars because he's So Christian now, he's not. Look at the scenes for the upcoming episode. Full frontal hug at the airport and the way he casually throws his arm around her and pulls her close in front of Boob and Michelle speaks volumes about what he knows is a normal way of interacting with someone you're dating. He's nowhere near their clenched-ass thought process. Hell, his mom still wears pants. Jinger might be shocked into a slightly new way of thinking if she doesn't have 20+ indoctrinated people surrounding her every second of the day tattling on her and telling her how to think. For so long she was the "rebel child" we all thought had the best chance of escaping and going slightly mainstream. Free Jinger. She's probably never going be able to lead what we consider normal life - her messed up parents saw to that, but maybe  there's a little hope still. At least for her future kids? Maybe. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Magoo
Wonky line break I can't fix.

[becca3891]

15 hours ago, Evagirl said:

 

If Jinger and Jeremy move away and he starts showing her what the other side of life is about, maybe just maybe she'll start growing up.  I don't think Jeremy will have a household without a TV or never take his wife to the movies or never not just take a trip just for fun.  If she stays close to the clan/TLC, she'll always be emotionally and socially stunted.   There is hope.

I think they all knew what they were doing, deliberately steering clear of guys steeped in Gothardism. They're on social media now, have a bit of a taste of the world, and definitely don't want to plunge into a world of no TV and endless conferences. There had to have been many guys they've met through Gothard conferences who tried to begin courtships.

 

Regarding Jill -- I was just reading that infertility after C section is somewhat common. I think her life began to spiral in her mind the minute she was wheeled in for the C section. I think it crushed her because even with her limited training, she knows she's not delivering 20 babies. The risk of uterine rupture increases with each subsequent pregnancy, particularly if you try to go with a vaginal birth. Her lifelong dream is over, and her life in CA is nothing like the bonding experience she had with young girls when the family went a few years ago. She's scared and hiding out in a locked house, cut off from her family and depressed that she's not pregnant yet. I feel badly for her.

[DangerousMinds]

Jinger's future kids are going to grow up with a father who gives anti-masturbation "sermons." No chance.

[bigskygirl]

Jeremy can take Jinger away from her family, but unless he gets her the help she needs, it will be a lost cause. Look at Josh and Anna, and Derick and Jill. You can take the Duggar away from the pack, but you cannot take the Duggar out of the child. Yes, I admit the older kids drive me bonkers, but they all need professional help, and a spouse who does not have his or her head up their you know what to help them with their emotional damage. Of course the person also needs to admit he or she has some serious emotional problem and not blame it on the devil and evilness (looking at you Josh and Derick's mother.) JB sets a very poor example of a spouse because he cannot or will not admit his own wife has some serious emotional problems herself. In otherwords, the apple does not fall far from the tree.

[BitterApple]

10 minutes ago, bigskygirl said:

Jeremy can take Jinger away from her family, but unless he gets her the help she needs, it will be a lost cause. 

This. Quasi-preachers and wanderers aren't equipped to handle the sort of deprogramming and therapy these girls need to overcome years of brainwashing. There's also the trauma of the sexual abuse, which was never properly addressed or treated. Maybe the victims have genuinely forgiven Josh, but that doesn't mean there aren't lingering issues. Jinger was practically bawling in every episode last year. I don't think she's an emotionally healthy woman. I think the courtship is a nice distraction and the endorphins are making her feel better, but it won't last. She needs help. Real help, not a JTTH excursion.