S04.E07: For Better Or Worse

[izabella]

Sonia wants to be wooed and swept off her feet, though not literally.  Or at least some sort of flirting directed her way.  Nick does not flirt.

[Blissfool]

In the afteshow, not-materialistic-Lily said Tom would be perfect if he owned a boat. Hmmmm.....

[Blissfool]

12 hours ago, Evil Queen said:

 

You think she is a fraud but no reason on why? I am not seeing that here. As has been said by many of us, there is something(s) that went on that are not being mentioned for some reason that made this whole "marriage" go sour fast. Its not just the smoking but something more. 

Some people are speculating on some sort of unwanted sexual move on Derek's part, but I doubt Heather would have continued sleeping in the same bed if that was the case. 

For me, pot smoking alone would have been a deal breaker. 

9 hours ago, izabella said:

I always laugh when I see that posted here because I have not ever, not once, noticed the t-shirts everyone is so up in arms about.  I even try to remember to look at his t-shirts, but he's never actually wearing one when I'm trying to notice it.  If he's here to promote something, it's been entirely lost on me!

Well, he wore it again in this episode. 

[absolutelyido]

12 hours ago, Neurochick said:

^^^
 I get why people don't warm up to Heather.  I wonder if she's not allowed to say that Derek smoked weed because of something in the contract she signed.  On the show she only said, "smoked."  But I think it's more than just cigarettes.

I don't have a problem with weed and maybe Heather doesn't either.  The problem is that Derek and Heather went on a honeymoon as strangers.  When you meet someone for the first time, you want to put your best food forward.  So here's Derek, pulling out a joint.  Heather was probably taken aback, even if she was okay with weed.  She might have been like, "Dude, I just met you and you're smoking pot?"  That would be like saying you're okay with drinking and the second date with a guy, he pulls out a flask. 

I didn't like Heather at first, but now I see things differently because I don't believe she's allowed to say what actually happened between them, and I think that sucks. 

I agree with this. I believe I am recalling correctly that when Heather first said that the smoking was bothering her, she said that Derek would smoke as soon as he got up in the morning. If it were weed (and I think it was) that would really bother me. I am a social drinker and would not have a problem with someone who had a glass of wine every evening. But if someone had a glass of wine every day as soon as they got up in the morning, that would seem odd to me, and I would wonder if they had a problem. Heather may have told the "experts" that she didn't mind someone who was an occasional pot smoker, but I can see why she still would be taken aback by him lighting up every morning, especially when it would be reasonable for Heather to think that Derek was being on his best behavior.

Derek may have had a different viewpoint and thought since they were on vacation, he would smoke whenever he felt like it. I think its also very possible that he knew they would be filmed for the rest of the day and evening, so that if he wanted to get a smoke in, he had to do it first thing before the cameras showed up.

However it played out, Heather is clearly done with the relationship.

[Lola16]

While I was waiting for my cup of joe at my local coffee house tonight, one of the baristas went on break. As he was walking out, he turned to this skelly customer and said "hey man, wanna smoke?" Skelly customer (who looked dirtier than Tom's feet) nodded and patted his left breast pocket twice. It was flat. No cigarette packs in there.

Heather agreed that Derek stopped smoking when she brought it up to him. I'd venture a guess that he stopped smoking in front of her.  He was very stoned in the talking head after the cave.

While I agree that she probably finds faults very early on and turns them into deal-breakers, this isn't a relationship that would work. And they shouldn't try to make it work. Fish and cut bait.

[biakbiak]

So curious what type of social work that Sonia does because she is not a great communicator, can't listen, can't articulate her needs, and shuts down when told something she doesn't like. I don't think Nick is a great at communicating and most of the above applies to him as well but he isn't in social work.

[jenrising]

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

So curious what type of social work that Sonia does because she is not a great communicator, can't listen, can't articulate her needs, and shuts down when told something she doesn't like. I don't think Nick is a great at communicating and most of the above applies to him as well but he isn't in social work.

To be fair to Sonia, my mother was a social worker her entire career working with at risk children where was amazing. She was, and continues to be terrible at communicating emotionally in her private life. 

[jamblastx]

7 hours ago, Blissfool said:

In the afteshow, not-materialistic-Lily said Tom would be perfect if he owned a boat. Hmmmm.....

A 'minimalist' boat....maybe only a 40 foot one

[jamblastx]

10 hours ago, lordonia said:

I agree with everyone who thought Heather's conversation with her friend was very telling. We have to believe that Heather gave her all the gory details, possible pot smoking, gambling, name-calling and all. Heather was obviously upset, depressed, and mentally exhausted, but the friend still pushed her to go forward.

It supports the theory that Heather is super picky and dumps men if they so much as burp in front of her: "You have no class!" (Well, if I recall correctly, she admitted that about herself and the experts called it out as well.)

Heather may be too picky but it doesn't mean that she isn't correct about Derek.  It's like the old saying 'just because you are paranoid, it's doesn't mean that they are not after you'

[humbleopinion]

Derek did not sleep in the same bed as Heather, you can see him "acting" to pull the covers back.

They "stunt" slept in the same bed for the benefits of the cameras and producers.

Neither would have tolerated being in the same bed after arguing, too peeved.

Derek was still in "vacation mode" so he probably went back down to the bar with the crew.

[BunnySlippers]

4 hours ago, biakbiak said:

So curious what type of social work that Sonia does because she is not a great communicator, can't listen, can't articulate her needs, and shuts down when told something she doesn't like. I don't think Nick is a great at communicating and most of the above applies to him as well but he isn't in social work.

I think she said she finds foster homes for children.

[Empress1]

12 minutes ago, BunnySlippers said:

I think she said she finds foster homes for children.

She said in the ep that she teaches a parenting class to foster parents. I've known a few foster parents, including a good friend of mine (she's now the legal guardian of a teenager, as a single person), and anyone who's involved in the foster system gets props from me. It's very hard work.

[Evil Queen]

8 hours ago, absolutelyido said:

I agree with this. I believe I am recalling correctly that when Heather first said that the smoking was bothering her, she said that Derek would smoke as soon as he got up in the morning. If it were weed (and I think it was) that would really bother me. I am a social drinker and would not have a problem with someone who had a glass of wine every evening. But if someone had a glass of wine every day as soon as they got up in the morning, that would seem odd to me, and I would wonder if they had a problem. Heather may have told the "experts" that she didn't mind someone who was an occasional pot smoker, but I can see why she still would be taken aback by him lighting up every morning, especially when it would be reasonable for Heather to think that Derek was being on his best behavior.

Derek may have had a different viewpoint and thought since they were on vacation, he would smoke whenever he felt like it. I think its also very possible that he knew they would be filmed for the rest of the day and evening, so that if he wanted to get a smoke in, he had to do it first thing before the cameras showed up.

However it played out, Heather is clearly done with the relationship.

I can't see these "experts" even asking about if its ok to be matched with a pot smoker or any kind of drug user. More so because its illegal in Florida. It was probably that she said cigarette smoking occasionally is fine. Yet the idiots they are, match her with Derek the pot smoker. When we see how the editing is done and how even Pepper has come off on it, its just wrong. They make her look like this bitch over it all but yet who wants to wake up every morning with the dude that has to get high first thing. It wouldn't exactly make one feel warm to that person if that is what they are thinking off instead of you and this new marriage. I am amazed at all these women that make comments in articles on the show that seem to think he is some great catch. Wonder how they would feel waking up to that happening every morning? Its not a good impression at all that happening. I'd be done too. With what is scene with his THs he clearly didn't give it up as he claims either. Maybe he didn't do it in front of her but its clear as day when he is high and when he isn't and she probably saw it herself. I just wish this show didn't act like do with couples where its clear they are done. Pushing them as if they were trying to save a 10 yr marriage or whatever is not ok. Even more so when the "experts" never take the blame for the shitty matches like this. Its much easier to blame the people in the couple and say they have to do the work or whatever else. Sure its work to make a marriage last BUT this isn't a normal, typical marriage either and the "experts" need to quit treating them like it is. Once its done this needs to be done and let them walk away from each other instead of forcing them to stick it out for 6 weeks. We have seen it done in the past and they never learn it seems that it does no good in doing that. It won't change a thing. 

[ethalfrida]

I couldn't get my homemade cosmetics past TSA so how did Derek get his goodies to the honeymoon? 

[BunnySlippers]

42 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

She said in the ep that she teaches a parenting class to foster parents. I've known a few foster parents, including a good friend of mine (she's now the legal guardian of a teenager, as a single person), and anyone who's involved in the foster system gets props from me. It's very hard work.

Oh, okay. So I was only half right. I agree; she deserves respect for the work she does.

[izabella]

10 hours ago, absolutelyido said:

I agree with this. I believe I am recalling correctly that when Heather first said that the smoking was bothering her, she said that Derek would smoke as soon as he got up in the morning. If it were weed (and I think it was) that would really bother me. I am a social drinker and would not have a problem with someone who had a glass of wine every evening. But if someone had a glass of wine every day as soon as they got up in the morning, that would seem odd to me, and I would wonder if they had a problem. Heather may have told the "experts" that she didn't mind someone who was an occasional pot smoker, but I can see why she still would be taken aback by him lighting up every morning, especially when it would be reasonable for Heather to think that Derek was being on his best behavior.But if someone had a glass of wine every day as soon as they got up in the morning, that would seem odd to me, and I would wonder if they had a problem.

Derek may have had a different viewpoint and thought since they were on vacation, he would smoke whenever he felt like it.

What if it were champagne mimosas on the first morning (brunch) of their honeymoon?   Would that seem odd?

I believe you're right and that's Derek's defense - he was smoking (whatever) more because he was on vacation/honeymoon, and that's something he does for fun.  I'm not defending him, and Heather has every right to hate it and not want to be with Derek.  I'm just saying, he may not necessarily be a degenerate with a "problem."

Edited September 8, 2016 by izabella

[Empress1]

13 minutes ago, BunnySlippers said:

Oh, okay. So I was only half right. I agree; she deserves respect for the work she does.

She may do foster placement in addition to the parenting class, but she definitely talked about the parenting class.

[henrysmom]

Quote

Okay people, I quit. I cannot in good conscience watch this shit show any longer.

Why?

They're playing with people's LIVES. All for ratings! It's not RIGHT!!!! 

I'd say I'm quitting with you...but I thought pretty much this same thing last year and yet, here I am still watching.  It is very clear that the "experts" either don't have enough people to make a good match, or they just plain out don't care.  I still haven't decided which it is, probably a mix of both.

My best scenario is that they get roughly 100 actual, real, not crazy, decent looking/camera friendly women who voluntarily sign up for this.  And one guy.  Then they troll message boards and Facebook and dating sites and come up with a pool of about 9 other guys.  So they take those ten guys and then see what good tv they can come up with.

Here's a guy with dogs...let's match him with this girl who is afraid of dogs.  Oh, and both of them are terrible communicators! That'll be fun!

Hmm, this guy likes to smoke pot and is really laid back, yet still kind of a whiny jerk.  Who was that uptight girl, the blonde?  Heather?  Yeah, this should work great.

Oh, and here's a guy who lives on a bus.  Doesn't matter who we pair him up with, that is just pure television gold.

And if it turns out that a couple actually gets along, they have the guy talk about a postnup and how he doesn't really want kids to see if they can rile things up a little.  But usually that kind of effort isn't necessary because the crazy matches do the work for them.

[humbleopinion]

To be fair to Tom, it is not uncommon for a 28 year old man who hasn't thought of anyone but himself to tuck dick and flee when the subject of children is brought up.

Way to kill the sex buzz producers.

Edited September 9, 2016 by humbleopinion
nitpicking my own grammar

[Snarklepuss]

14 hours ago, Enero said:

I don't know about this. I went back and watched the "boob" scene, God help and have a slightly different perspective on things. 

In the scene BOTH Sonia and Nick were laughing and in their talking heads stated that the chest touching was awkward. In fact, Sonia removed Nick's hand from her chest during the incident. Though Sonia says she wants more physical intimacy from Nick, perhaps it's not happening because she's not truly comfortable with him going that far. As I've said before, Nick was more affectionate with Sonia at the wedding and morning after. As soon as they had their session with Rachel and Sonia was obviously uncomfortable with the intimacy of the exercise Rachel had them do (watch Sonia's body language in that scene . She was positioning herself away from him.) and how she continued to show her discomfort in route to the honeymoon, Nick has pulled back. So...he may be waiting to get the signal that she's comfortable with more physical intimacy before making a move. 

Also, Nick said he's still trying to figure out what Sonia's definition of being more open means. When he asked her to explain she couldn't. So he was open in his way which understandably upset her.

Again, they are both horrible communicators and need to talk talk talk and listen to what the other person is saying and try to respond in a way that the other person will understand.

All that said, I still think Nick is VERY inexperienced with women. I'm kind of leaning towards the spec someone made about him being a virgin. I just remember at the wedding reception his friends were asking if he was going to try and consummate the marriage that night and Nick said I "think"  girls like to know a guy a little better before getting to that. Think being the operative word here. 

So yeah I'm inclined to believe Nick is a bit green and flying blind here. But I'm also still feeling like both he and Sonia are having difficulty being sexually attracted to each other.

After watching the "boob" incident over (which I had somehow completely missed the first time) I came to your conclusion myself - I can see the scenario as having been that Nick and Sonia had an early "discussion" over how much physical intimacy they were comfortable with, and Sonia gave Nick a kind of wishy-washy "shades of gray" answer that his inexperienced brain couldn't quite work out.  So Nick, being a gentleman, would rather err on the side of caution lest he risk offending Sonia.  I think the "comfortable pace" statement he made might have also come out of that discussion, too, which she completely misinterpreted.  He may have been saying that thinking it would put her at rest if she's afraid he might rush her into sex before she's ready.  IHe may be trying hard not to come on too strong knowing that she may need some time to get more comfortable with having sex with him. 

On her end, I think Sonia thinks Nick should understand that there's a lot of physical intimacy that isn't necessarily SEX per sé.  The old female stereotype of "just wanting to cuddle and hug" may actually apply here.  But Nick himself may not be comfortable with only going so far, so he'd rather hold back.  And Sonia (and the rest of the world) might be getting the impression that he's not interested in her sexually when it's not that, it's that like you say above, he's waiting to get a signal from her that it's OK to proceed.  He also may be holding back emotionally too because of this.  If he is inexperienced, that may account for some of the inability to find the medium ground.

[Madding crowd]

I think even if you are dating for a few weeks you would expect some type of physical intimacy, even a kissing session. I think it is fine if Nick doesn't want a physical relationship but that means it's friendship, he wants a friend. Marriage requires physical intimacy in all but a very few cases. I get the idea he thinks having sex will 'lead Sonia on' and she will want a romantic relationship with him. For whatever reason, he doesn't want that. I don't know if they roped him in by telling him he could promote his business or he has some other reason, but it's not fair. I don't believe Sonia would turn down a move to kiss her or be more intimate-I think it's all Nick. And the way he recoiled when he though he touched her boob seemed really over the top for me.

I think they should drop the whole thing with Heather and Derek if they are not going to tell the whole story. Personally I would not want to be with someone who smokes weed the second they get up (and no I don't think having a mimosa for brunch on your honeymoon is the same thing). I have had brunch with friends and had a mimosa-legal and something you can do in a restaurant. Smoking pot is illegal  in most places and so usually done solitary and in secret. I also have never been drunk on one mimosa which is half to 2/3 orange juice. The thing is though-we don't know what is really going on  and the show won't tell us so just leave it alone and get rid of their story. 

[Snarklepuss]

10 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I think even if you are dating for a few weeks you would expect some type of physical intimacy, even a kissing session. I think it is fine if Nick doesn't want a physical relationship but that means it's friendship, he wants a friend. Marriage requires physical intimacy in all but a very few cases. I get the idea he thinks having sex will 'lead Sonia on' and she will want a romantic relationship with him. For whatever reason, he doesn't want that. I don't know if they roped him in by telling him he could promote his business or he has some other reason, but it's not fair. I don't believe Sonia would turn down a move to kiss her or be more intimate-I think it's all Nick. And the way he recoiled when he though he touched her boob seemed really over the top for me.

I think Nick may want to have a relationship with Sonia both sexual and otherwise, but he is holding back on that because he thinks touching her will offend her.  She may not have intended to give him that impression.  I don't think either of them is very good right now at giving/getting the right impression.  I think Sonia is inhibited from coming clean with Nick because she has a fear of his rejection.  Her gut may be telling her that his reticence is due to him not being sure he wants to pursue a relationship with her or because he's not attracted to her (or both), and she doesn't want to risk throwing herself at him and getting shot down.  She may be onto something or just misinterpreting his being a gentleman with being uninterested.

Yet another Mr. Snarklepuss story - I knew him for a while on a "platonic friends" basis but he knew I was not interested in him as a boyfriend (his best friend was the one who let him know that).  Since he was shy and inexperienced, and didn't want to offend me, he didn't show signs that he was interested in me after a while.  His friend would tell me he was still interested but if not for being told that I would have no clue.  So when I changed my mind about him and told his friend about it, he told me that Mr. Snarkle was shy and that if I was really interested in him, I'd basically have to hit him over the head with a 2x4.  It took several tries to get through to him, because he was that unable to process the fact that I really liked him "that way" now.  He had gotten so used to the fact that I wasn't interested in him that he couldn't switch gears.  Plus, I was too shy to hit him over the head with it.  I had to pretty much come out and tell him POINT BLANK that I wanted more than friendship and to jump his bones ASAP!!!  This was not easy for me to do and it took me pretty much all night to accomplish because I too was kind of shy back then.  If Sonia were ready I would hope she wouldn't be too shy about letting Nick know how she feels even if she fears his rejection.  If he doesn't respond after her telling him she wants him this way, I'd say he wasn't interested in her, and at least she'd have her answer.  Fortunately, Mr. Snarkle was really interested in me and got over his shyness and his fear of offending me very soon after I came clean with him.

[Palomar]

Jeez, talk about speculation turning into fact.  There is no evidence that Derek was smoking pot on this vacation.  To assume it as fact and an excuse for ending the marriage is ridiculous. You can tell she flat out doesn't like him and is looking for a "reason" to end it without looking like the bad guy.

Heather, like Ashley last season, was looking for perfection....the perfect guy that she is attracted to who treats her like a queen. That is not Derek and let's face it not most guys.  She didn't expect to have to work on a marriage or compromise...she thinks she deserves the fairy tale. Yes, Derek was wrong to bring up the surfing instructor and say some of the things he did.  It definitely came from frustration since (like Ashley and David) she treats him like he has a virus or something and is more touchy feely with strangers than him.

Heather is looking for justification for dumping Derek that will make her look good. Even the counselor brought up the cigarette excuse is now bogus since he has not smoked since she told him how much she hates it (try to fill out your application forms a little better, sweetie).  I imagine she has been convinced to keep it going for another month ($$$). Even Derek mentioned that he wanted to stay married "during the experiment time".  He knows it is over too when the contracts are up.

[brilliantbreakfast]

2 hours ago, ethalfrida said:

I couldn't get my homemade cosmetics past TSA so how did Derek get his goodies to the honeymoon? 

It was Puerto Rico,  I'm sure there were guys waiting right outside the airport ready and waiting.  These guys automatically KNOW who's looking to buy, and guys looking to buy always know who the sellers are.  My late husband, who was also fond of the Weed With Roots In Hell, could find a hotel's "designated guy" within 20 minutes.

[Neurochick]

14 hours ago, hnygrl said:

Okay people, I quit. I cannot in good conscience watch this shit show any longer.

Why?

They're playing with people's LIVES. All for ratings! It's not RIGHT!!!! 

But that's how TV works in America.  Shows depend on ratings; if the show doesn't have ratings then it's not worth it to the sponsors and the show will be cancelled.  The reality is that people, most folks, love a good trainwreck. Also, these people didn't have guns put to their heads, they went into this with their eyes opened.  If anybody has ever seen reality TV, they know it's all about money and ratings and a good way to bring those things is to bring the drama. 

If they had three couples and everybody got along, that would be great, but I bet most people would turn it off and say it was boring and the show would wind up getting cancelled. 

I look at it this way, most people in the west live pretty mundane lives.  Most of us don't have to worry about hunting and killing our food every day, most people don't have high drama in their daily lives.  So watching reality TV gives people, us, that drama.  It sucks but that's TV. 

[BunnySlippers]

27 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

I think Nick may want to have a relationship with Sonia both sexual and otherwise, but he is holding back on that because he thinks touching her will offend her.  She may not have intended to give him that impression.  I don't think either of them is very good right now at giving/getting the right impression.  I think Sonia is inhibited from coming clean with Nick because she has a fear of his rejection.  Her gut may be telling her that his reticence is due to him not being sure he wants to pursue a relationship with her or because he's not attracted to her (or both), and she doesn't want to risk throwing herself at him and getting shot down.  She may be onto something or just misinterpreting his being a gentleman with being uninterested.

The problem is, the way Nick has been acting and talking, Sonia already thinks he's not into her. Apparently, he's never told her that he finds her attractive, which was really bad for her self-confidence; he said he wanted to take things sloooow, he said he's not in love with her, etc., etc. On the honeymoon, she tried to initiate some intimacy: there were a few times I remember when she leaned over and kissed him. I don't think he reciprocated. It just doesn't seem like he's attracted to her, and to me, it doesn't seem like he's so distant because he doesn't want to put pressure on Sonia. And if he keeps going like this, she'll be more and more convinced that he doesn't want her, so I doubt she'll throw herself at him and risk being rejected (again).

But, we'll see what happens...

[Kira53]

7 hours ago, biakbiak said:

So curious what type of social work that Sonia does because she is not a great communicator, can't listen, can't articulate her needs, and shuts down when told something she doesn't like. I don't think Nick is a great at communicating and most of the above applies to him as well but he isn't in social work.

I believe she said she was a parenting educator.

[Madding crowd]

I guess I could buy Nick being shy if I didn't hear him say he wouldn't initiate physical contact because he doesn't want to lead her on. To me this means he has no desire for a romantic relationship. I have heard guys say that before and it always means " I would have sex with her but she might think I'm her boyfriend" and the guy doesn't want that. I think Sona has shown she is attracted to him and he does not reciprocate. 

[Snarklepuss]

I'm entertaining all of the theories like anyone else, although my gut is still telling me he's not that into her and he's conflicted over it, so he'd rather not "lead her on" if he's not sure (and even worse if she's giving him the impression that he should hold back).  And I think he's not sure how he feels about her for any one of the reasons I've already posted at length (painfully shy, unaware of his own feelings, still hung up on someone else, inexperienced, virginal, virginal with women, gay, bisexual, kinky, asexual, whatever).  I guess we'll have to find out what it is.  I am sure the two of them will come to a head at some point over this.  They may end up having fights and more misunderstandings before either they work it out or split.  I personally hope whatever it is gets worked out and they stay together.

[BunnySlippers]

^^I basically only watch it now to find out what happens with Nick and Sonia. I agree that there's going to be a confrontation, especially since we saw a little glimpse of Sonia taking off her ring in a car in one of the previews. I'm curious what will happen in the end. :)

[psychoticstate]

1 hour ago, Palomar said:

Jeez, talk about speculation turning into fact.  There is no evidence that Derek was smoking pot on this vacation.  To assume it as fact and an excuse for ending the marriage is ridiculous. You can tell she flat out doesn't like him and is looking for a "reason" to end it without looking like the bad guy.

Heather, like Ashley last season, was looking for perfection....the perfect guy that she is attracted to who treats her like a queen. That is not Derek and let's face it not most guys.  She didn't expect to have to work on a marriage or compromise...she thinks she deserves the fairy tale. Yes, Derek was wrong to bring up the surfing instructor and say some of the things he did.  It definitely came from frustration since (like Ashley and David) she treats him like he has a virus or something and is more touchy feely with strangers than him.

Heather is looking for justification for dumping Derek that will make her look good. Even the counselor brought up the cigarette excuse is now bogus since he has not smoked since she told him how much she hates it (try to fill out your application forms a little better, sweetie).  I imagine she has been convinced to keep it going for another month ($$$). Even Derek mentioned that he wanted to stay married "during the experiment time".  He knows it is over too when the contracts are up.

I agree and Pastor Calvin addressed this.  There is no perfect person, man or woman.  There is someone they feel could work out to be a good match for a particular person but they aren't perfect and it's up to the couples to work at it.  

I stand by what I said earlier that Heather signed up as a lark, never expected to be chosen and didn't back out when she should have.  I don't think she'd be happy with anyone because she's picky and maybe didn't truly want to do this.  Maybe she signed up with a friend and the friend encouraged her to continue.  Who knows.  But I think she was clearly going to find fault with Derek and did.  If it is pot smoking, and as you said, no absolute proof at this point although it does sound like it to me - - but if it is smoking, I understand that.  But for her to immediately throw up red flags because Derek noticed a casino on their first day?  Come on, Heather.  Even if he had wanted to go it does not mean he has a gambling problem.  It's really no different than assuming Heather is an alcoholic because she drank during the trip. 

I don't think Derek is a prize but I feel sorry for him based on what we see.  He does appear to be sincere and I think he's right to be upset or angry with Heather if she did not start this from a place of sincerity.  Again, we are only seeing certain portions but she appeared to not even try from their first day in PR.  I'd like to know why.  At least Ashley participated in things with David during the honeymoon, as awkward as it was.   Heather said she wasn't attracted to or romantically interested in Derek in her THs but she seemed okay with him at the wedding.  So there has to be something.

 

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

But that's how TV works in America.  Shows depend on ratings; if the show doesn't have ratings then it's not worth it to the sponsors and the show will be cancelled.  The reality is that people, most folks, love a good trainwreck. Also, these people didn't have guns put to their heads, they went into this with their eyes opened.  If anybody has ever seen reality TV, they know it's all about money and ratings and a good way to bring those things is to bring the drama. 

If they had three couples and everybody got along, that would be great, but I bet most people would turn it off and say it was boring and the show would wind up getting cancelled. 

I look at it this way, most people in the west live pretty mundane lives.  Most of us don't have to worry about hunting and killing our food every day, most people don't have high drama in their daily lives.  So watching reality TV gives people, us, that drama.  It sucks but that's TV. 

I remember hearing this about Lily and Tom in the beginning - - people found them boring because there was no conflict or issue.

So I agree with you.  There is only so much reality in reality tv.  Everything is scripted.  Most people watch for the trainwreck potential but say they want happy matches.  

[love2lovebadtv]

On 9/6/2016 at 10:39 PM, lordonia said:

I guess I give Tom credit for being exactingly honest? I mean, of course he doesn't want kids NOW and isn't sure yet if he'll be with Lily long enough to experience that with her, but he could have phrased it a lot better. Like, "Yes, I eventually want a family." No need to parse out and qualify every word. And nothing stopping him from saying he wasn't comfortable babysitting, either.

Sonia and Nick were kind of adorable with their notepads while talking to Pepper. Better jot down these pearls of wisdom, kids! I was not at all surprised that Nick was pleased with the marriage so far -- it's more of his inward-focused obliviousness. I also think him helping to clean isn't so much a sign of affection as it is his meticulous and precise nature. They still might stick it out but Sonia will have to make the most concessions and come to terms with Nick not being the type of person who's going to caress her shoulders and give her passing kisses.

I think the whole bus thing was dragged out for the sake of drama. Even DH, who NEVER watches this show, would yell out every time he passed by me in the living room, Wait till she sees that bus...ha! 

However, I give Tom credit for being consistent and a better communicator than the other two. Like it or not, he says what he thinks. I hate having to guess.  Especially with a setup like this, there's just no time for that. 

Edited September 8, 2016 by love2lovebadtv

[love2lovebadtv]

15 hours ago, izabella said:

Sonia wants to be wooed and swept off her feet, though not literally.  Or at least some sort of flirting directed her way.  Nick does not flirt.

I agree. I don't think she wants to tell him to do things or even take the lead. It doesn't have the same effect. 

[ethalfrida]

1 hour ago, brilliantbreakfast said:

It was Puerto Rico,  I'm sure there were guys waiting right outside the airport ready and waiting.  These guys automatically KNOW who's looking to buy, and guys looking to buy always know who the sellers are.  My late husband, who was also fond of the Weed With Roots In Hell, could find a hotel's "designated guy" within 20 minutes.

LMBO but you are right. 

[Empress1]

12 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

So I agree with you.  There is only so much reality in reality tv.  Everything is scripted.  Most people watch for the trainwreck potential but say they want happy matches.  

I don't like the train wrecks. Derek and Heather are depressing as hell, and I felt awful for Vanessa last season when she got her heart broken. That wasn't entertaining to me. My BA is in psychology and I find this experiment fascinating from a human behavior standpoint, which is why I watch (I've only seen this season and last so I've only seen failures). The entire experiment is about figuring out what should work on paper and putting them together, but we don't live on paper (and this season, they didn't even do that. A dog lover with someone who is afraid of dogs is not a good match). I like trying to figure out how the couples can relate better, if it's a lost cause (which Heather and Derek are, IMO), what makes people tick, why a couple could work, why they didn't work, etc. If a couple isn't working, it's fun for me to imagine what kind of person would be a good match for each person.

This is a show like any other, so of course there's producer manipulation. I assume the producers cull the applicants down based on who would make good TV (Tom was 100% chosen because of the bus, IMO) and that's what the experts get to work with. 

[psychoticstate]

1 minute ago, Empress1 said:

I don't like the train wrecks. Derek and Heather are depressing as hell, and I felt awful for Vanessa last season when she got her heart broken. That wasn't entertaining to me. My BA is in psychology and I find this experiment fascinating from a human behavior standpoint, which is why I watch (I've only seen this season and last so I've only seen failures). The entire experiment is about figuring out what should work on paper and putting them together, but we don't live on paper (and this season, they didn't even do that. A dog lover with someone who is afraid of dogs is not a good match). I like trying to figure out how the couples can relate better, if it's a lost cause (which Heather and Derek are, IMO), what makes people tick, why a couple could work, why they didn't work, etc. If a couple isn't working, it's fun for me to imagine what kind of person would be a good match for each person.

This is a show like any other, so of course there's producer manipulation. I assume the producers cull the applicants down based on who would make good TV (Tom was 100% chosen because of the bus, IMO) and that's what the experts get to work with. 

Oh, I agree.  Last season I was actually kinda hoping that Sam would calm down and she and Neil could make it work.  So I don't mind some DRAMA if things work out in the end.  Derek and Heather are painful because there is just no honest, realistic and reasonable way they are going to work.  If Heather agrees to try to make it work, we know it's all bullshit.  Her basket of fucks was completely empty while they were in PR and if I had any respect to give her, it would be gone if she shined this thing on for camera time. 

Has MAFS ever said if Sonia mentioned to the "experts" that she was terrified/afraid/did not like dogs?  If she didn't and the "experts" didn't ask her when they thought of pairing her with Nick, shame all around.

I do think the bus helped in casting Tom but he's also a reasonably attractive man, at least IMO.  

[ethalfrida]

Geez, but the bus is a sorry motif! They couldn't do any better than that?

The problem is they have dumbed down entertainment so much now the writers' and producers' own creativity is lacking.  I am tired of the stupid story lines and didn't even finish this week's episode. 

[love2lovebadtv]

1 minute ago, Empress1 said:

I don't like the train wrecks. Derek and Heather are depressing as hell, and I felt awful for Vanessa last season when she got her heart broken. That wasn't entertaining to me. My BA is in psychology and I find this experiment fascinating from a human behavior standpoint, which is why I watch (I've only seen this season and last so I've only seen failures). The entire experiment is about figuring out what should work on paper and putting them together, but we don't live on paper (and this season, they didn't even do that. A dog lover with someone who is afraid of dogs is not a good match). I like trying to figure out how the couples can relate better, if it's a lost cause (which Heather and Derek are, IMO), what makes people tick, why a couple could work, why they didn't work, etc. If a couple isn't working, it's fun for me to imagine what kind of person would be a good match for each person.

This is a show like any other, so of course there's producer manipulation. I assume the producers cull the applicants down based on who would make good TV (Tom was 100% chosen because of the bus, IMO) and that's what the experts get to work with. 

What you're saying makes sense. It seems like at this point the experts aren't even trying to use common sense in matching people. 

I agree Derek & Heather are pitiful. They're not fun to watch at all. Vanessa was also a sad case, although I'm not entirely sure what happened there. It didn't work out but it wasn't a horrible match, IMO. 

That said, how much are these folks making and what are the requirements for getting that money? 

[zxy556575]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

If they had three couples and everybody got along, that would be great, but I bet most people would turn it off and say it was boring and the show would wind up getting cancelled. 

It would be interesting to find out. I think I'd enjoy a season with three successful matches. There's bound to be some friction even in the best cases and the producers could just let that play out. I think what I most want out of this show is for there to be some question at the six-week decision point -- what's boring and pointless is to spend TV time with couples who are obviously a huge failure.

Can't believe I'm defending the experts, but I do feel like they genuinely try to make the best matches with what they've been given to work with. It's a win for them if a couple stays together. In the end, if blind matchmaking was easy we'd all meet our partners that way. You can look at people on paper all day but it's still mostly a crapshoot.

[ethalfrida]

Believe it or not, there would be a lot of very interesting moments in the lives of couples who got married without ever seeing, meeting or knowing of each other. 

[numbnut]

On 9/6/2016 at 10:01 PM, Neurochick said:

Ah, I see what happened now.  Heather asked Derek to stop smoking; he did but he was probably pissed that she asked him to stop, and then the issue with the surf instructor and the cave happened.  Derek was probably still pissed off that Heather asked him to quit smoking and he turned on her.  

After their talk in counseling, I saw the situation like this: Heather saw the smoking but instead of speaking up, she got silent and cold.  When she finally did speak up, Nick stopped smoking but Heather kept bringing it up, griping about it and judging him. She refused to let it go (despite saying the opposite), which caused Nick's resentment. Nick def. needs work (That wine/milk comment? Ugh) but Heather strikes me as someone who will quickly find flaws in others to avoid examining her own flaws. Her drinking is as much of a red flag as his pot smoking (if that's what he's doing) so maybe she's projecting onto him what she subconsciously thinks about her own habit (which her friends may have mentioned as a problem).

Edited to add: The constant cliffhangers of Heather's decision and other decisions are ridiculous. [snip]

Edited September 9, 2016 by Drogo
Removed AU version talk.

[Passthepopcorn]

4 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I agree. I don't think she wants to tell him to do things or even take the lead. It doesn't have the same effect. 

Agree with this. I think that Sonia, with her sexy curves and mermaid hair is used to getting men's attention (especially the Latin men in Miami). She is baffled at Nick's lack of reaction. It wouldn't be the same if she has to ask. It's borderline humiliating. I think that if there is understanding through body language and insinuations people (men or women) know if you are attracted/ready. Even if you want to wait. There's no need to ask. It happens, slowly but surely.

There is not such intuitive understanding between this two yet.

[Lola16]

13 hours ago, biakbiak said:

So curious what type of social work that Sonia does because she is not a great communicator, can't listen, can't articulate her needs, and shuts down when told something she doesn't like. I don't think Nick is a great at communicating and most of the above applies to him as well but he isn't in social work.

 

11 hours ago, jenrising said:

To be fair to Sonia, my mother was a social worker her entire career working with at risk children where was amazing. She was, and continues to be terrible at communicating emotionally in her private life. 

My sister in law is an elementary ed school teacher. Parents and students praise her.  If you met her outside the classroom and saw her around kids, you'd think she worked in DMV.  

[Waterlilly]

If you sleep in the same bed with a man for a week, you can tell if he is attracted to you even if he wants to take it slow. Just sayin. 

[KateHearts]

On 9/7/2016 at 3:43 PM, Enero said:

I honestly think Nick hasn't made a move because he doesn't want to. He's not attracted to Sonia because he's gay, she's not the type of woman he's usually attracted to or he's completely inexperienced.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting tired of the gay theory. Just because a guy is quiet/awkward/into clothing doesn't mean he's homosexual.

On 9/7/2016 at 3:42 PM, Snarklepuss said:

  I mean, I'm a hetero woman and I think Sonia is beautiful, attractive, sexy and all that, but I would never want to be more than platonic friends with her.

Because you're a heterosexual!  

[Nowhere]

2 hours ago, Passthepopcorn said:

Agree with this. I think that Sonia, with her sexy curves and mermaid hair is used to getting men's attention (especially the Latin men in Miami). She is baffled at Nick's lack of reaction. It wouldn't be the same if she has to ask. It's borderline humiliating. I think that if there is understanding through body language and insinuations people (men or women) know if you are attracted/ready. Even if you want to wait. There's no need to ask. It happens, slowly but surely.

There is not such intuitive understanding between this two yet.

Sonia doesn't act like a woman who gets a lot of attention from men. If she was used to a lot of attention, she would feel pretty confident that she could make some sort of move to arouse her husband. She wouldn't have to ask. She just needs to go for it and see how he responds.  She doesn't act confident at all and that's not exactly attractive. 

She also needs to stop saying she's terrified of dogs. If the producers want us to believe that bullshit, they shouldn't show her petting the dog while she's saying in her TH that she's deathly afraid of dogs. 

Nick says the relationship is at an 8 or 9 but there's no physical aspect. So a sexless marriage is a level 9 for him? He's lying. He had other motives for doing the show, like advertising his businesses perhaps. His conversation with his mother's boyfriend was clipped a thousand times. He does not act like a man who is attracted to the woman he's with. If he were attracted to her he'd be doing something with her. Anything. Saying she's beautiful doesn't mean he's attracted to her sexually, as Snarklepuss mentioned. 

[KateHearts]

On 9/7/2016 at 8:07 PM, lilsadone said:

Personally, I think Heather is turned off for completely different reasons. I think she wanted to be matched with a person of color, and won't be happy with him no matter what he does/says because she really wants to be with someone of a diff race. I could be wrong, totally - but that's what I get from her based on her mannerisms, etc. Btw, I'm a person of color. :) 

I don't see how anyone could deduce this.  At all.  Unless Heather said, "my ideal guy is black/hispanic/Asian/Middle Eastern..."

[Zuleikha]

What if it were champagne mimosas on the first morning (brunch) of their honeymoon?   Would that seem odd?

It's easy to drink champagne mimosas without getting drunk. You can't really smoke weed without getting high.

[Snarklepuss]

8 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I don't like the train wrecks. Derek and Heather are depressing as hell, and I felt awful for Vanessa last season when she got her heart broken. That wasn't entertaining to me. My BA is in psychology and I find this experiment fascinating from a human behavior standpoint, which is why I watch (I've only seen this season and last so I've only seen failures). The entire experiment is about figuring out what should work on paper and putting them together, but we don't live on paper (and this season, they didn't even do that. A dog lover with someone who is afraid of dogs is not a good match). I like trying to figure out how the couples can relate better, if it's a lost cause (which Heather and Derek are, IMO), what makes people tick, why a couple could work, why they didn't work, etc. If a couple isn't working, it's fun for me to imagine what kind of person would be a good match for each person.

I have an M.S. in Counseling Psych., so I relate to what you're saying.  I find the dynamics of human relationships (especially romantic ones) fascinating and I watch for all the same reasons you do.  Even the failures teach us something about how relationships can work better, so for me even the train wrecks have value.  The combined wisdom on this board is phenomenal, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of the analysis and theories.  I also like to think of what makes each participant similar to people I've known and what has worked for them.  I think the experts sometimes use methods that are too simplistic or cut and dried, which is why they don't work in the real world so well.  I think the best matchmakers have to use "seat of their pants" common sense and intuition, which can't be found on any questionnaire.  I often think this board would be better at matching people than this show.  Then again we often wonder if they deliberately match some of these people to create drama.

[Enero]

1 hour ago, Nowhere said:

She also needs to stop saying she's terrified of dogs. If the producers want us to believe that bullshit, they shouldn't show her petting the dog while she's saying in her TH that she's deathly afraid of dogs. 

She's not saying this over and over though. The producers are just replaying her confessional from previous episodes over and over again to create the illusion that she's going on and on about being terrified of dogs. 

They're doing the same thing with regards to her wanting affection from Nick. They are just replaying the talking head she had from several episodes ago and as a result people are preceiving it as her constantly whining about not knowing if Nick likes her.

I noticed this when watching the new episode from Tuesday night. There really wasn't much new that was said by Sonia and Nick, it was mostly the producers replaying footage or sound bites from THs in a previous episode.