Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[BradandJanet]

4 minutes ago, Zella said:

OMG is that the origin of the box story? I knew it involved Jessa being awarded for bad behavior but that is somehow even worse than I'd imagined. 

It's in one of their books, but I remember either seeing it on TV or hearing Jana talk about it.  The kids had so few personal possessions (think communal closet) that giving up a small treasure was a cruel way to treat the one who was being bullied. I can just imagine Jessa smirking and holding her "new" jewelry box. 

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, BradandJanet said:

It's in one of their books, but I remember either seeing it on TV or hearing Jana talk about it.  The kids had so few personal possessions (think communal closet) that giving up a small treasure was a cruel way to treat the one who was being bullied. I can just imagine Jessa smirking and holding her "new" jewelry box. 

Honestly, no wonder Jessa turned out to be such a bitch if she was rewarded for it like that. 

[Sew Sumi]

7 minutes ago, Zella said:

Honestly, no wonder Jessa turned out to be such a bitch if she was rewarded for it like that. 

Jessa was about five at the time, so her spoiled behavior started pretty young.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Sew Sumi

[BradandJanet]

3 minutes ago, Zella said:

Honestly, no wonder Jessa turned out to be such a bitch if she was rewarded for it like that. 

It certainly worked to keep Michelle from having to listen to her children's problems. That was the point. It really was all about Meechelle. 

I'm glad Jill is trying to deal with some of this stuff. It can't be easy. 

[ginger90]

It was discussed in an episode. I found this:

In “Grand Ole Duggars” Jill, Jana, Jessa and Jinger go to an ATI conference to talk about relationships, and when discussing relationships between siblings, Jana brings up the jewelry box story. Things are going well, she mentions that Jessa was an awful child and she struggled with making her sister stop. “How can I work this out, I don’t want to go through my entire life having this bad relationship, it’s not like you can avoid your siblings,” she recounts. Then, the cracks begin to show when she mentions giving up something that was precious and treasured to her. “It wasn’t Jessa’s birthday, it wasn’t…anything, it was a random day, and I was just saying, you know…” Jana trails off, the tears beginning to well. Finally, brave-faced and crying, she says, “There are people that may hurt us, there are people that may have done things to us, and that…it is our responsibility to forgive.”

[galaxychaser]

Oh man poor Jana.

[Sew Sumi]

That story always fueled my Mechelle hate. What a horrible job in parenting that left lifetime scars.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Sew Sumi

[wilsie]

56 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

“There are people that may hurt us, there are people that may have done things to us, and that…it is our responsibility to forgive.”

Knowing about Josh and how Michelle and Jim Bob mishandled it, this has a completely new meaning.  Jessa is small stuff compared to that.

[wilsie]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

That story always fueled my Mechelle hate. What a horrible job in parenting that left lifetime scars.

For me too.  Also leaving Josie when they knew she had seizures to go to an appointment in Chicago.  It's hard to watch but 13 year old James knew what it was that was going on so it wasn't a first.  Jana looks terrified.  I think Michelle and Jim Bob are despicable.   https://people.com/tv/19-kids-and-counting-josie-duggar-suffers-seizure/

Edited June 28, 2020 by wilsie

[Tigregirl]

I wonder if Jessa has that jewelry box proudly on display somewhere in her house or if once she reached adulthood she realized how much that hurt Jana and gave it back to her.  

Re Jill’s essay on behavior, I’ll give her credit for acknowledging that it’s ok to express feelings and be angry at times- “Anger and disagreements can be healthy and need to be expressed, but we do want them to be thoughtful, responsible, self-aware and self-controlled when problems arise. ”

[QuinnInND]

2 hours ago, ginger90 said:

Finally, brave-faced and crying, she says, “There are people that may hurt us, there are people that may have done things to us, and that…it is our responsibility to forgive.”

Oh horseshit. I refuse to forgive people that abused and used me. Fuck that. Responsibility my ass... Grrrr. 

[Zella]

19 minutes ago, Tigregirl said:

I wonder if Jessa has that jewelry box proudly on display somewhere in her house or if once she reached adulthood she realized how much that hurt Jana and gave it back to her.  

I think she's either kept it as a trophy like a serial killer or she threw it away to spite Jana. I think giving it back and apologizing would require shitloads of more empathy, maturity, and self-reflection than Jessa will ever possess. 

[madpsych78]

16 minutes ago, QuinnInND said:

Oh horseshit. I refuse to forgive people that abused and used me. Fuck that. Responsibility my ass... Grrrr. 

I can understand forgiveness if in the context of "that abusive person will no longer be occupying space in my mind rent free." Forgiveness does not mean forgetting.

[Sew Sumi]

16 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

I can understand forgiveness if in the context of "that abusive person will no longer be occupying space in my mind rent free." Forgiveness does not mean forgetting.

However, in Jana's case, she not only was forced to forgive Jessa, but she also had to give away a treasured possession. That just placates Jessa...in theory...in the guise of Jana having a servant's heart. 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Sew Sumi

[cmr2014]

12 hours ago, ginger90 said:

How To Cut Down on Tattling

Jun 27, 2020 | Family Blog | 0 

When I was a kid, I remember my mom constantly encouraging us kids to work out disagreements between ourselves. Of course there were plenty of times when we just couldn’t see eye-to-eye with a sibling, or we were so emotional that a friend couldn’t reason with us and we needed an adult to help, but many other times, the little petty disagreements or someone picking on us could be resolved without involving an adult. 

How?

My mom had 2 rules.

Rule number 1: “Talk sweet.” 

Rule number 2: “Go and tell”…an adult (and to be used only if rule number one didn’t work). 

If we came running to her with our little problem without having applied these two rules in the correct order, then we would be reminded of them and might be asked if we would like to “try again.” 

She made it clear that if we had taken the right steps and tried to work it out first, she would be all ears to help and only the guilty party would be in trouble. But if we came running to her before trying to work it out, or bullied another person (or as she called it “taking matters into your own hands”), then both of us might be in trouble. This dramatically cut down on tattling and highly encouraged us to work things out on our own, or at least attempt to first. 

There were of course exceptions to this rule, like if there was an emergency and someone was going to get hurt, or if a mess was being made, then we didn’t have to follow these steps and could step in and help or run for an adult immediately. 

As a parent myself now, we’ve used these two rules with our kids. I believe that not only do our kids benefit from them right now as they learn to work through problems with others while still young, but I believe these rules will likely help them later in life too when problems arise. And this doesn’t mean we expect our kids to always agree with each other or never express when they’re upset. Anger and disagreements can be healthy and need to be expressed, but we do want them to be thoughtful, responsible, self-aware and self-controlled when problems arise. 

We had a laugh the other day when our boys had a little squabble. They weren’t handling the situation well by themselves, so I stepped in and asked Israel what rule number one was and if he’d used it. Sam piped up before Israel could answer, “talk sweet!” 

   

 

 

This is all bullshit.

I feel sad the Jill still feels so desperate to prove that J'chelle was a wonderful parent.

Gothardism is all about tattling -- 100%. JB and J'chelle are both controlling people. They have no interest in their children working out their own problems. If they had developed those skills as children, they might have formed relationships with each other which is a non-starter with Gothard.

I believe that they were all instructed to "talk sweet" all the time, and any deviation from that was reported to JB and J'chelle. I think that any genuine childhood problems (like Jessa harassing Jana) were fodder for lessons in "sweetness" or "humility" or having a "servant's heart."

I hope that Jill continues her therapy, and I hope that she eventually gets to a point where she's okay with acknowledging that her childhood wasn't idyllic.

[QuinnInND]

16 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

I can understand forgiveness if in the context of "that abusive person will no longer be occupying space in my mind rent free." Forgiveness does not mean forgetting.

In that context, yes. But all too often it means "Since you've forgiven me, it never happened and we can still act like everything is ok." I'm sure that is what it means in Duggar land. 

Edited June 28, 2020 by QuinnInND

[Zella]

1 hour ago, QuinnInND said:

In that context, yes. But all too often it means "Since you've forgiven me, it never happened and we an still act like everything is ok." I'm sure that is what it means in Duggar land. 

Yes, and it doesn't even seem like they are ever allowed to be angry at whoever wronged them. It's like forgiveness is automatically demanded, regardless of anything. I think that's horseshit. 

[Future Cat Lady]

11 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yes, and it doesn't even seem like they are ever allowed to be angry at whoever wronged them. It's like forgiveness is automatically demanded, regardless of anything. I think that's horseshit. 

We saw what happened with Josh...

That's one thing that angers me with this kind of religion, they can do the most horrible things but everything is forgiven if you believe in the right Jesus. 

[GeeGolly]

Accountability partners are assigned snitches. That is quite the opposite of don't tell.

Michelle just didn't want to have to handle the typical, 'he's breathing on me', 'its my turn', 'I was sitting there', 'I saw it first', squabbles that kids get into.

These poor kids got more mixed messages in addition to being adultified as children and infantilized as adults.

Edited June 28, 2020 by GeeGolly

[DangerousMinds]

All of her siblings should be forever grateful that Jill tattled on Josh when she did.

Edited June 28, 2020 by DangerousMinds

[Lunera]

I read the title as How to cut down on Tanning and was really confused after I read her post. 

[cmr2014]

On 6/25/2020 at 6:37 PM, Sew Sumi said:

Mechelle did NOT mention the married ones when she talked about Covenant Eyes. She just said the kidults asked her to do it. It was strongly suggested that it was the male kidults who are subjected to it. 

I would assume Anna monitors Smuggar.

I suspect the kidults did not "ask" her to do it -- I doubt they "ask" her to do anything.

I assume she mentioned the app and said "we could put in on your phones and that would help to hold you accountable!" And they all said "yes" because what else could they say?

[Sew Sumi]

3 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I suspect the kidults did not "ask" her to do it -- I doubt they "ask" her to do anything.

I assume she mentioned the app and said "we could put in on your phones and that would help to hold you accountable!" And they all said "yes" because what else could they say?

Totally agree that the kidults"asking" for accountability via Covenant Eyes is utter bullshit. She just says that to make herself look better. Because she's MOTY, after all. 🙄

[JoanArc]

The Story

Quote

“LEARNING A MEMORABLE LESSON
JESSA AND I (JANA) got a memorable lesson in how that works when Jessa was six and I was eight. At the time, we lived in a four-bedroom house, and Jill and Jinger shared one room, and Jessa and I shared another.
It’s hard to imagine it now, but at the time Jessa and I really didn’t get along—which is probably why our parents put us in the same room, so we could work on our relationship. We shared a bunk bed; I was on top, and Jessa was on the bottom.
Every night, as I was trying to go to sleep, Jessa would kick my mattress: Thump. Thump. Thump. I would ask her to stop, but she would keep right on kicking. This continued until I called Mom in and Jessa got in trouble. But only a few nights later, she’d be at it again: Thump. Thump. Thump. “That bother you up there, Jana?” she would say with a giggle.
(Note: This was early in the development of Mom and Dad’s parenting skills, and they had not yet adopted some of the rules and practices we’ll describe a little later.)
Our parents were tirelessly consistent about getting on to Jessa. But Jessa, likewise, was tirelessly consistent with her aggravating ways. Repeatedly, Mom and Dad corrected Jessa. And each time, they would have her come back in and apologize to me. Then we would give each other a hug, but still, the two of us just couldn’t get along. Finally, I began to simply avoid Jessa whenever I could because it seemed she was always looking for ways to annoy me[…]”

“One night during our family devotions, which we call Bible time, we read about the apostle Peter. I remember thinking he must have had an annoying person like Jessa in his life because he asked Jesus, “How many times can my brother offend me, and I still forgive him? Seven times?”
Jesus said, “Not seven times, but seventy times seven.” Now, He wasn’t saying that forgiving 490 times was the limit. (Because if that was the case, I thought, I could’ve probably stopped forgiving Jessa right then!) Dad explained that Jesus meant “You keep forgiving your brother as long as I keep forgiving you.”
Even at that young age, I knew Jesus had already forgiven me for way more mistakes than Jessa had even thought of making.
I asked Mom what she thought I should do, and she told me, “Jana, if you really want your sister to be nice to you, make it a point to be nice to her, even when she’s mean to you.” Then she shared with me what Jesus said in Matthew 5:44: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.”
Mom said an enemy could be understood as “anyone who invades your territory,” and Jessa sure was intruding—on my bunk bed, my sleep, and my disposition! Mom encouraged me to think of something nice I could do for her. So even though I didn’t want to and definitely didn’t feel like doing it, after praying about it I decided to give Jessa something that was very special to me.
Jill and I, as the oldest of the girls, had each been given matching pink jewelry boxes, and we both loved those beautiful boxes. It was hard to think of giving away one of my most treasured possessions—especially to someone I wasn’t happy with. But I tucked a few other childish but special-to-me things inside my jewelry box and then wrapped it up along with some candy. A little later, I told Jessa I had something to give her. I told her I loved her and handed her my gift.

“From my perspective, I (Jessa) admit to having been a very strong-willed child. I enjoyed irritating my big sister Jana because I thought it was funny to see her response. I knew how to get under her skin! Now I know that what I really wanted, deep down, was for her to pay attention to me, and by aggravating her, I definitely got her attention.
The heart change for me began that day when she handed me that unexpected gift. I couldn’t believe it at first. What kid doesn’t like getting a gift? I was thinking I was getting a head start on birthday gifts, but I was pretty sure my birthday wasn’t anytime soon. Then Jana told me she loved me and just wanted to give me a gift to show me she loved me.
When I tore off the paper and saw her beautiful jewelry box, I was speechless. Even though I was only six, I understood what a treasure she was giving me. I knew how much she loved that jewelry box!”

“After that, somehow, it was no longer fun to annoy Jana. That’s not to say I instantly stopped all the annoying habits I’d developed in my young life so far, but never again did I view Jana as someone who was fun to harass. From that time on, we began to spend more time playing together and doing things alongside each other, and she continued to show me how much she loved me in different ways.
Today, we’re close friends as well as sisters, but I know this might not be the case if Jana hadn’t forgiven me and taken that selfless step, way back in our childhood, to invest in my life and show me that she loved me. She truly demonstrated to me the principle behind the verse that says, “Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Matthew 6:21).
Today we know families where adult siblings still can’t get along because all throughout their growing-up years their relationships focused more on irritating each other than on being friends. We’re so thankful our parents have put such a priority on helping us overcome those challenges at a young age.

“And we encourage all of you older girls who are reading this book to see that if you have a younger sibling who seems to make a hobby of constantly getting on your nerves, it’s most likely a desire for your acceptance. As you include your little sister or brother in your life and show genuine ”

“love, even when it’s contrary to what might seem like a natural reaction, we predict you’ll see a turnaround in your relationship.
If your problem is with a sibling, friend, or even an enemy, the basic principles are still the same. God commands us to forgive those who have wronged us or offended us. And then He wants us to go a step further, that “second mile,” and actually bless our offenders with kindness and prayer. Years ago, Mom and Dad gave us kids a wonderful example of blessing an enemy; it’s one that we remember to this day.”

 

[Sew Sumi]

How much of that did the girls actually say vs. what David Waller filled in?

[JoanArc]

54 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

How much of that did the girls actually say vs. what David Waller filled in?

 I thought it was even sadder than Jenna feel the music box with little Momentos and stuff that were important to her. So pretty much everything child that age has an attachment to. Jessa is really a bitch, and Michelle is just plain evil. 

[madpsych78]

I'm trying to figure out how they had the four oldest girls occupying two of their four bedrooms in 1998, which is the year that corresponds with Jessa's and Jana's ages as told in the story. At that time, the kids through Joy would have been born, and Jed and Jer would have been yet to be since they were born at the end of 1998. So while Joy was likely with JB and Michelle, were all four boys really sharing one bedroom together? (In a standard 4-bdrm house, that is)

And yeah, Jessa is a bitch.

[Temperance]

She was five years old! Children that age can lack understanding and she (Jessa) was probably looking for attention from her checked out mama! 

The Duggars and their fundie friends seem to believe that a child that age can hold sin in their hearts like an adult. Within the last month Ashley Nicole Young's husband's post from less than a month ago about how their four year old child had a"sinful nature" and I thought they (Ashley and her husband) were insane.!

I don't think Jessa is a bitch (or at least as much as a bitch as she is made out to be). 

Michelle and JB were/are terrible parents, who should never have paraded on television as role models. 

 

[Sew Sumi]

KRISTEN Nicole Young and her husband Justin are reprehensible parents. They definitely have the potential to be as bad as Boobchelle. 

Thanks for pointing out that Jessa would have been five when Jana was eight, except for the period of November when Jessa turned six into early January when Jana would have turned nine.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Sew Sumi

[GeeGolly]

5 hours ago, Temperance said:

She was five years old! Children that age can lack understanding and she (Jessa) was probably looking for attention from her checked out mama! 

The Duggars and their fundie friends seem to believe that a child that age can hold sin in their hearts like an adult. Within the last month Ashley Nicole Young's husband's post from less than a month ago about how their four year old child had a"sinful nature" and I thought they (Ashley and her husband) were insane.!

I don't think Jessa is a bitch (or at least as much as a bitch as she is made out to be). 

Michelle and JB were/are terrible parents, who should never have paraded on television as role models. 

 

Jessa not understand such an abstract message at age 5, even if it was explained to her. And I doubt Jana would be interpreting the Bible so aptly, at age 8.

I vaguely remember the story being told prior to Pecan David's version of events. Basically it was something like, after repeated nights of Jessa kicking Jana's bunk, Michelle told Jana to give her something Jana cherished. Jana gave her the jewelry box. And for some reason I thought Jessa was 8 at the time. When I heard the story I remember thinking, huh, I would have just switched Jessa to the top bunk. I also thought the four girls shared a room then.

Why would Michelle have an 8 year old share a room with a 5 year old, and a 7 year old share with a 4 year old?

[crazycatlady58]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Jessa not understand such an abstract message at age 5, even if it was explained to her. And I doubt Jana would be interpreting the Bible so aptly, at age 8.

I vaguely remember the story being told prior to Pecan David's version of events. Basically it was something like, after repeated nights of Jessa kicking Jana's bunk, Michelle told Jana to give her something Jana cherished. Jana gave her the jewelry box. And for some reason I thought Jessa was 8 at the time. When I heard the story I remember thinking, huh, I would have just switched Jessa to the top bunk. I also thought the four girls shared a room then.

Why would Michelle have an 8 year old share a room with a 5 year old, and a 7 year old share with a 4 year old?

So the "older" child can take care of the younger. The two young children would have no one to "help" them.

Not you again posted the same time I did.☺️

[GeeGolly]

35 minutes ago, not you again said:

My guess is, so that the older girl can tend to the younger girl.  Because Meeeechelle can't be bothered, you know.  🙄

I also would have moved Jessa to the top bunk; problem solved.  If the kicker was afraid of being up that high, then she should stop being a little shit to her sister.

33 minutes ago, crazycatlady58 said:

So the "older" child can take care of the younger. The two young children would have no one to "help" them.

Not you again posted the same time I did.☺️

It's a bedroom, they're mostly sleeping. They live in the same house. It's not like Jana & Jill couldn't enter their room and help them dress.

 

[doodlebug]

39 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

It's a bedroom, they're mostly sleeping. They live in the same house. It's not like Jana & Jill couldn't enter their room and help them dress.

 

Yeah, but what about the middle of the night when one of them has a bad dream or wets the bed?  Michelle was undoubtedly busy making sandwiches with JB and/or lactating or gestating.  No way she was getting up in the wee hours; having a sister-mom right there on call for any emergencies was the only way to be sure Michelle and JB got uninterrupted sleep because you and I both know that it was made very clear to Jill and to Jana that they were NEVER to bother their parents at night (or ever, really, unless they wanted crappy advice like 'Give your sister your favorite possession').

PS: my parents would've tossed the bottom bunk brat out of her bed and made her sleep in a sleeping bag on the floor until she could remember not to bother her sister.

[madpsych78]

1 hour ago, not you again said:

My guess is, so that the older girl can tend to the younger girl.  Because Meeeechelle can't be bothered, you know.  🙄

I also would have moved Jessa to the top bunk; problem solved.  If the kicker was afraid of being up that high, then she should stop being a little shit to her sister.

Sounds like an early buddy system where Jana was Jessa's buddy and Jill was Jinger's buddy. I mean it would have been after the laundry breakdown.

[GeeGolly]

Maybe I was lucky with my kids. Once they started sleeping through the night, they rarely woke up. Maybe two or three times a year, if they were sick or had a nightmare.

[Insert Username]

It sounded to me like normal sibling annoyances - when you have kids sharing a room, you lay down the law and deal with it. (also, my boys slept in bunkbeds for years - I'm not sure that 5-year-old legs easily reach to kick the top bunk repeatedly) Jessa was 5 - I'm not sure calling her a selfish bitch at that age is fair - she was a kindergartener. Her reaction actually sounds like an age appropriate reaction to being told what to do by sibling acting like (and given the powers of) a parent. The actual parents should have given her an appropriate punishment - I agree that she probably wanted attention - even negative attention - from her parents.

[dariafan]

I hope ( and I mean this ) that Jill is learning in therapy that she can get angry and her therapist learns how to and how to express it and deal with it.  She seems to want to be a better person 

[Zella]

I will admit I didn't realize the anecdote happened so early. I know kids can be assholes and one instance of assholery as a kid does not an asshole or a bitch make. But I still firmly believe that no wonder Jessa is a bitch now if this is the lessons she got even as such a young child. It reminds me of a friend from college who told us that her brother was taught not to hit her but she was allowed to hit him, and she had no clue why the rest of us thought that sounded weird. But even as an adult she still acted like an entitled princess, and I'm sure that brother story was just the surface of how that concept was consistently reinforced throughout her childhood. Same with Jessa. If the lesson you get as a 5-year-old is that you can be a complete ass to your sister and you get rewarded and she gets punished, what incentive do you have to stop? 

Back on the subject of Jill, I know she was often considered a snitch and then it was revealed she was the one who told about Josh, apparently. Do we have any other instances where Jill acted like a snitch on her siblings or is that reputation solely because of the thing with Josh? Because if the latter, how very toxic that is too. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Zella

[madpsych78]

That's what I meant when I said Jessa was/is/can be a bitch. I meant as an adult, not as a 5-year-old. 

[JoanArc]

Quote

Jessa was 5 - I'm not sure calling her a selfish bitch at that age is fair - she was a kindergartener.

Add my voice to the chorus, Jesse is a bitch because she is smugly reliving that story in front of a crying adult Jana.  I don’t really care about her age appropriate behavior, that’s fine. Most people would be ashamed of how we behaved as a five-year-old and maybe try to make things right with their sister. Instead, all we have is a mean girl, pushing 30, who seems to be a cold fish incapable of empathy.

I hope she gets stuck working the jewelry section of Walmart for a good 5 to 10 years after the show is over.

[GeeGolly]

Jessa is for sure a smug bitch now and was a bossy brat back in the day. There are plenty of examples of both.

As for Jill, I think it was speculated that either she or Jana told on Josh once. The other times Josh told on himself. I believe the girls when they said they were sleeping and didn't know. I'm assuming one of the older girls spoke up about the laundry room incident.

[Temperance]

I feel sorry for Jessa; her bitchiness has been overexaggerated to the point where it's hard to believe.

JB and Michelle are shitty parents who are incapable of loving anyone but themselves.  It's no wonder their kids don't have natural affection, compassion, or understanding of other people and their feelings and how relationships work. 

Topic: It's hard to believe Jill and Derick are so boring, they aren't being discussed in their own thread. 

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, Temperance said:

I feel sorry for Jessa; her bitchiness has been overexaggerated to the point where it's hard to believe.

JB and Michelle are shitty parents who are incapable of loving anyone but themselves.  It's no wonder their kids don't have natural affection, compassion, or understanding of other people and their feelings and how relationships work. 

Topic: It's hard to believe Jill and Derick are so boring, they aren't being discussed in their own thread. 

You should read an FB post Jessa did a few years back. A true example of her Mean Girl Christian self.

And Yay for Jill and Derick!

[Sew Sumi]

Jessa was at her worst around the time of her marriage. She peaked when she posted the pic of her and Ben kissing to promote straight marriage. She blocked me for liking a pro-LGBTQ post. I never reply on fundie posts.

[Minivanessa]

12 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Jessa was at her worst around the time of her marriage. She peaked when she posted the pic of her and Ben kissing to promote straight marriage. She blocked me for liking a pro-LGBTQ post. I never reply on fundie posts.

Oops. Taking my reply over to the Jessa topic.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Jeeves
I don't know where I am sometimes

[Churchhoney]

On 6/27/2020 at 11:33 PM, QuinnInND said:

Oh horseshit. I refuse to forgive people that abused and used me. Fuck that. Responsibility my ass... Grrrr. 

That story is heavily Gothard influenced, I think. He pushes and pushes the absolute necessity of forgiveness of those who push you around or abuse you ....

And, much much worse, what he's mostly envisioning, clearly, is someone younger or a female being abused by somebody like an oldest-brother-the-leader-of-our-home who has power over that person. (can also be applied to bitches and jerks of other ages and sexes, too, of course -- all those people would like to insist they be let off the hook by your forgiveness...)

Gothard pushes the forgiveness thing most strongly in his stuff about sexual abuse, harping on it in his essays about modern-day abuse and citing biblical examples and such. And I'm sure this is all mainly projection based on his own desires, too. It's forgiveness that's designed to be a kind of acknowledgment on the part of the victimized person that they are at least in part -- and perhaps entirely -- at fault.   (EMLTA: Which is the unspoken reason why under the Gothard rules-of-childraising idiots JB and M lived by, you don't just "forgive" the person, you pay them compensation (or tribute, in historical terms) like in the jewel-box story. )

Forgiveness has its virtues but anybody who's "learned" about it from Gothard has internalized a sick, sick version of it, if you ask me. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

The theory behind non-Gothard forgiveness is akin the (partial) saying, acid eats the container that its in. Carrying around negative thoughts and feelings about a past trauma, incident or event can exacerbate anxiety, depression and PTSD. I often suggest clients try using the Serenity Prayer when working on forgiveness, with or without the word God.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.

Forgiveness is hardly a one shot deal, its an ongoing process. Accepting and forgiving are not the same thing as becoming besties with an asshole, or telling someone it was no big deal. More often than not, the person (if its other than yourself) being forgiven is not even part of the process.

[Oldernowiser]

“Becoming besties with an asshole” is my new favorite phrase.

👏

[Absolom]

The lesson is don't become a scarab beetle.  They carry their own dung with them until they can no longer move so they die.  Don't carry the wrongs and hurts of the world on your back until they overload you and stop you from moving.

This is hopefully part of the process that Jill is learning in therapy and how faulty the Gothard view of life and how the world operates is.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Absolom

[leighdear]

Why do people think Jill is in therapy?  Just because she's posted photos on social media of some christian "self-help" books, carefully arranged with a cup of tea and a plant in the background?  Because she's referred to some naval-gazing, canned phrases that she's Googled from sites and dropped the names of authors of some easy-to-find Net blogs? 

I simply cannot buy that there is a live, trained and EDUCATED therapist as any part of her life.  I think it's a plot point in the story of the "new" Jill.  

And Isn't most legit therapy supposed to be about not just spewing your crap to random strangers on the Internet, and more working on your real relationships with real people in your real life?   

Yeah, that's a hard NO from me on her being in any legitimate therapeutic program.  YMMV.