Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[GeeGolly]

23 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

The Gothard stuff has nothing to do with Derick's bad behavior. Two entirely different topics. 

Boob went to a Gothard seminar in high school, so the basis was there when he met and married Meech. Of course, Dr. Wheat told them that the pill causes miscarriages, which is when I think they were all in. Boob followed Jim Sammons' financial advice from early on in their marriage. I don't think there was a time in the marriage that wasn't tainted by Gothard in some form. They merely fell deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole, and they're still there.

That's my point. If the book focuses on Gothard why address the TLC SM rumors at all? And if Jill really felt the need to clarify why Derick left the show then just say why he left - that in and of itself clears up the rumors.

So curious, did Jill write about JB's behavior in the context of Gothard? Or was that a separate topic as well?

[Salacious Kitty]

I think it was established and understood that his behavior was a byproduct of Gothardism. He abused his power as a headship. That point Jill makes clear. 

[lascuba]

If it wasn't Gothard it would have been someone else. Hell, if JB had an ounce of charisma he would have made a go of starting his own cult. All the fundamentalist cults have the same problems. As glad as I am about Gothard's downfall, I hate how it's such a convenient smokescreen for fundies. It's wall to wall cultists saying they're no longer IBLP and counting on people making positive assumptions about them.

[Salacious Kitty]

14 minutes ago, lascuba said:

If it wasn't Gothard it would have been someone else. Hell, if JB had an ounce of charisma he would have made a go of starting his own cult. All the fundamentalist cults have the same problems. As glad as I am about Gothard's downfall, I hate how it's such a convenient smokescreen for fundies. It's wall to wall cultists saying they're no longer IBLP and counting on people making positive assumptions about them.

I believe in the instance of the Dillards that it's widely acknowledged that while she is no longer IBLP that she still likely holds most of their hateful beliefs. The same applies to Jinger, Jessa, and Joy, all of whom claim to have left IBLP behind. 

[Absolom]

There are thousands of religious conservatives who share those same beliefs who have never been in IBLP and some of them have never even heard of it.  They aren't all cult members, but they share at base a religious culture and belief system that isn't open and welcoming.  It's roughly 30% of Americans and slowly shrinking. Jill and Jinger have been migrating from the extreme end of that 30% to a less extreme view.  I don't know if they'll ever move out of the overarching group though.

[Salacious Kitty]

Probably not. Everybody in their inner circles thinks/believes as they do. No impetus for real change. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Salacious Kitty
Changed up a double negative

[mythoughtis]

My opinion is that the book is about Jill’s upbringing, IBLP, her parents, and the TV show, the affect of all that on her life and the cost of separating herself from it all.  It’s not about Derick’s tweets … other than the need to discuss the interaction with JB about the tweets. The book is called Counting the Cost - obviously a link to the titles of  the TV shows.  
People can  dislike the tweets if they want, but they don’t need to be addressed in this particular book.  
As to the tweets about Jazz- the few I saw seemed mostly directed at Jazz’s parents about their decision to put Jazz and her upbringing on a tv show. I have to wonder if Derick was in the middle of seeing what being on TV had cost Jill.
  Jazz has had a rough time mentally and emotionally in the last couple years. Doing a TV show might not have been in Jazz’s best interests.  Maybe she will write a book about what it cost her someday. 
Let me be clear - I’m not defending or condoning any tweet that was directed toward Jazz herself. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by mythoughtis

[Salacious Kitty]

He directed tweets at Jazz, calling her "he" on several occasions. But again, the tweets were only mentioned as an acknowledgment that they were aware of the chatter regarding their departure from the show. No remorse was shown. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[GeeGolly]

It seems to me the Dillards only recently learned to (partially) respect their own kids' privacy. Was it last summer they posted a 10 part series of their PNW vacation? And the summer before when they posted themselves forcing the kids into iced cold water because they might have walked by poison ivy. And of course all the kid related shills Jill continues to post. Sure maybe their faces aren't shown but she's still exploiting her kids for cash.

Change can be a slow process and it seems they're making progress, but they are not there yet.

[Salacious Kitty]

It's been at least two years since the PNW trip. It was before she got pregnant with Freddy. 

[auntieminem]

8 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I understand the book was written to appear as Jill's story, but that doesn't mean it isn't really Derick's. Everything I've read about the book hits all the points Derick was discussing when he was promising to write a book. Jill likely agrees with Derick's opinions. They could have written the story together and used Jill as the author because it would sell more books.

As you said Jill is a self-proclaimed people pleaser. Maybe now she is pleasing Derick.

 

Or maybe she is trying to live her life on her own terms.

Have you actually read the book?  I have. I am a retired social worker and a "bleeding heart liberal"  from way back while also having a spiritual journey which I still am on and off.  I won't discount her journey even if it is different than mine. It puts her in a better place and hopefully continues to do so. 

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, auntieminem said:

Or maybe she is trying to live her life on her own terms.

Have you actually read the book?  I have. I am a retired social worker and a "bleeding heart liberal"  from way back while also having a spiritual journey which I still am on and off.  I won't discount her journey even if it is different than mine. It puts her in a better place and hopefully continues to do so. 

No, I haven't read the book, but I've read and heard a lot about it to have somewhat of a feel for it. I also feel the Dillards provided a lot of real time thoughts about various situations discussed in the book to have some context.

Oh, so as a SW you know what can happen if clients are pushed into disclosing/discussing their issues in therapy never mind publicly. You also know of the difficulties clients encounter if they haven't learned sufficient coping skills prior to doing trauma work.

The incongruencies throughout the book lead me to believe Jill is adopting others opinions, namely Derick's. But maybe Jill has changed dramatically and has felt compelled to share these specific parts of her story publicly as part of her healing. Or maybe not. Maybe Jill has been nudged into defending her husband with the intention of repairing his reputation.

I'm all about respecting ones journey and know no two journeys are alike, I just hope this is Jill's journey. One she is fully prepared to share publicly. As I have said many times, I too hope this book has a positive impact on Jill's life, but I do, unfortunately, have some doubts.

 

[zenme]

Was the book a money-making opportunity that Derick convinced Jill to write as a form of healing or growing?

[kaleidoscope]

After completing the book, reading it carefully and thoughtfully, I find Jill to be honest and still healing.  I have a whole new level of respect for her.  Jill attended the trial one day and said her brother sat there with a demeanor of someone who had a traffic violation.  She calls him a monster and said he needs to be in a place where he can no longer hurt anyone.  At the end she states that "Pops" put the show before the kids.  She is concerned for her siblings.  I feel she is hoping some of them will read it and that it will help lift the veil.  I feel it took a lot for Jill to write this book and to begin to learn how to trust.  I wish her a continued healing journey.

[Meow Mix]

Regarding the statement about Jana, I do think it would have been better to leave that out.  I think she was trying to say that they were all joking around about Jana being a Gothard girl, but they were not aware of anything more than the fact that he seemed to favor blonds.  The way I read it was that she was definitely not aware until much later of what actually being a Gothard girl meant.  We don't know if she cleared that part with Jana before putting it in the book either.  I would hope she would since that is stepping out of her own story.

There are a lot of uncomfortable moments in the book from what I have read so far (still in the middle of it).  JB pushing Jill in Derick's direction made me very uncomfortable.  Scott's reaction to Jill telling him she was interested in Derick and wanted to go to Nepal to meet him was also creepy.  They considered Scott one of the family, but it's clear when you read between the lines that he was only interested in exploiting the situation to keep the show on the air.  I would not be surprised if he and JB were talking about Jill being pushed into a courtship for a while before she spoke to him.  The whole thing grossed me out.

I do have sympathy for Jill.  I think she still has a ways to go in her journey and some things will never change for her and Derick, but I still hold out hope that someday they will realize that some of the beliefs they hold are harmful to others.

[Madtown]

58 minutes ago, Meow Mix said:

We don't know if she cleared that part with Jana before putting it in the book either.  I would hope she would since that is stepping out of her own story.

I was just going to ask this. Do we know if she actually talked to Jana about putting this in her book? I would like to think that after what JB did to Jill without her knowledge, she would take Jana's feelings into consideration and ask her if it would be ok to bring these things up in the book.

I can't say anything bad about Jill putting the Jana stuff in the book without knowing if she asked Jana or not. If it comes to light that she didn't ask Jana, then I will judge her for it.

[lascuba]

4 hours ago, zenme said:

Was the book a money-making opportunity that Derick convinced Jill to write as a form of healing or growing?

Probably in part, but I'm guessing that, as religious as they are, and as "fuck you, internet" as Derick has always been, it was mostly about self-promotion and vindication. ALL memoirs are self-promotion tools. 

Fundies have become very good at hiding in plain site. Things like wearing pants was an attempt to signal that they're  not crazy and don't they look like nice people you'd like to spend time with and give their money to. This book is out at a perfect time...it's popular now in fundie circles to disavow Gothard, and people have been clamoring for a Duggar child to break free since the start of the show. Derick had learned in life and in law school that saying less is to their advantage, because people will draw positive conclusions if you don't slap them in the face with facts. 

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a return if Dillard Family Ministries in the next few years. They'd make bank now.

[GeeGolly]

I'm going to lean toward Jill not getting Jana's permission to talk about her Gothard days. First, Jana still lives under JB's rule. Second, Jana and Laura were supportive of FF during the trial. And third Jana, Jessa and Laura were one of the groups of siblings/friend who visited her during the fallout.

Of course I could be 100% wrong.

[CalicoKitty]

5 hours ago, zenme said:

Was the book a money-making opportunity that Derick convinced Jill to write as a form of healing or growing?

I really don't think so.  It is about Jill's growth and realizing that the world she grew up in was not a true life.  If you read the book you will see how really, really deep the brainwashing was.  And how she is finally getting a grasp on "herself".  It did not come across as a Derick-inspired venture at all.

[Salacious Kitty]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm going to lean toward Jill not getting Jana's permission to talk about her Gothard days. First, Jana still lives under JB's rule. Second, Jana and Laura were supportive of FF during the trial. And third Jana, Jessa and Laura were one of the groups of siblings/friend who visited her during the fallout.

Of course I could be 100% wrong.

I don't remember Jana being supportive of FF. I don't remember her doing or saying anything either way. 

I think Jill's mention of Hana was to illustrate the one degree of separation between the Duggars and Gothard. And how, at the time, they reveled in it. 

[ginger90]

24 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I don't remember Jana being supportive of FF. I don't remember her doing or saying anything either way. 

Same. 

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I don't remember Jana being supportive of FF. I don't remember her doing or saying anything either way. 

I think Jill's mention of Hana was to illustrate the one degree of separation between the Duggars and Gothard. And how, at the time, they reveled in it. 

1 hour ago, ginger90 said:

Same. 

 

I stand corrected. I must have lumped her in with Laura, who was supportive of FF.

[HooHooHoo]

I guess I am just a cynic and not so easily convinced of all this”growth”. Especially when it comes with such a financial gain for them.  Yes, the things Jill was put through were terrible. I don’t wish that on anyone. But this book still screams self promotion and continued hateful beliefs to me. It would be so easy for them to show some remorse about their comments or even just a little willingness to learn. I am obviously in the extreme minority here, but my conscience will not allow me to line their pockets (even with Pennie’s). 

Just now, HooHooHoo said:

I guess I am just a cynic and not so easily convinced of all this”growth”. Especially when it comes with such a financial gain for them.  Yes, the things Jill was put through were terrible. I don’t wish that on anyone. But this book still screams self promotion and continued hateful beliefs to me. It would be so easy for them to show some remorse about their comments or even just a little willingness to learn. I am obviously in the extreme minority here, but my conscience will not allow me to line their pockets (even with Pennie’s). 

Edited to add:  no judgement to all who have bought the book. Just my opinion and internal struggle. 

[lascuba]

35 minutes ago, HooHooHoo said:

It would be so easy for them to show some remorse about their comments or even just a little willingness to learn. 

This is my problem with them and "deconstructing" fundies in general. Yes, they were taught terrible things and had terrible things done to them. Does that mean they should never be held accountable because they were  victims? Victim/perpetrator isn't a binary. A lot of people do awful things because of how they were raised, but...what, being raised fundie is the only exceptable excuse? Being raised fundie means never having to say you're sorry? 

[Salacious Kitty]

Jill is a work in progress. She's never going to completely deconstruct, the same as Jinger. She is very being influenced by Derick, and will likely settle in where he lands theologically and politically. She mentioned that her therapist "points her to God," so she's never going to be what some people hope she would become. I just accept that she's going to remain a conservative Christian, and that they will likely never apologize for previous slights, including the Jazz mess. Instead, I focus on the positive growth she's made by distancing herself from the major parts of toxicity in her life. It takes guts to take on a jackass like Jim Bob. 

[GeeGolly]

I recently read an article about an upcoming movie - I think the title is I Can. Its about a couple who were having an affair and got pregnant. The daughter, who is a softball phenom, was born with a partially formed arm and her parents thought the birth anomaly was God's way of punishing them for the affair. 100% of the proceeds of the movie will be donated.

It got me wondering - have either Jill or Jinger talked about donating any of the profits of their books? Or is Jill, because her book focused a lot on money, doing anything to help protect other reality show or YouTube kids from being unpaid employees? They both have huge platforms and wrote books about difficult childhoods, which gives them opportunities to help others in ways others can't.

Unfortunately, in these days of religious division and YouTube families, neither of them are all that unique. I think their books do raise awareness in and of themselves, but why not use their passion and money to champion others?

[Future Cat Lady]

Anyone expecting the Dillards to ever drop their hateful beliefs are gonna be disappointed.  

[Suzn]

Changes can fall in two categories - those that benefit Jill and Derick and those that benefit others.  I don't see any change that has happened or will happen that is of benefit to anyone else.

[lascuba]

2 hours ago, Future Cat Lady said:

Anyone expecting the Dillards to ever drop their hateful beliefs are gonna be disappointed.  

Yeah, it's why I never considered reading their book. I know they haven't changed in any way that matters. The behind the scenes info is fun, but not worth a single one of my pennies.

On that note, it's been a while since I donated to a charity in a Duggar's name. I need to think about which one would offend Jill and Derick most.

8 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I recently read an article about an upcoming movie - I think the title is I Can. Its about a couple who were having an affair and got pregnant. The daughter, who is a softball phenom, was born with a partially formed arm and her parents thought the birth anomaly was God's way of punishing them for the affair. 100% of the proceeds of the movie will be donated.

It got me wondering - have either Jill or Jinger talked about donating any of the profits of their books? Or is Jill, because her book focused a lot on money, doing anything to help protect other reality show or YouTube kids from being unpaid employees? They both have huge platforms and wrote books about difficult childhoods, which gives them opportunities to help others in ways others can't.

Unfortunately, in these days of religious division and YouTube families, neither of them are all that unique. I think their books do raise awareness in and of themselves, but why not use their passion and money to champion others?

I can't imagine any Duggar ever doing anything to financially assist anyone outside of their immediate circle. Donations are something received by them. Profit above all is right up there with Jesus for them.

[sagittarius sue]

5 hours ago, lascuba said:

On that note, it's been a while since I donated to a charity in a Duggar's name. I need to think about which one would offend Jill and Derick most.

I think a pro trans-gender cause would bug them the most.

[Salacious Kitty]

4 minutes ago, sagittarius sue said:

I think a pro trans-gender cause would bug them the most.

Doesn't Jazz herself have a charity? 

Perhaps this?

Edited September 25, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[satrunrose]

20 hours ago, lascuba said:

Victim/perpetrator isn't a binary. 

I agree with this completely. I don't see healing/money as a binary either, though. Probably I'm biased (helping profession) but it's very possible to do something because you see it as important (recruiting for Gothard was the official motivation for the series, Jill and Jinger being candid about their childhoods make those cults look less appealing) and because you like getting paid. If Renee Rod runs off with some cute, blue-haired girl at Walmart and manages to wrangle a book deal, I'm going to be happy that she is getting something out of her screwed up childhood, not shake my head at her for monetizing her misery.

[CalicoKitty]

11 hours ago, lascuba said:

Yeah, it's why I never considered reading their book. I know they haven't changed in any way that matters. The behind the scenes info is fun, but not worth a single one of my pennies.

On that note, it's been a while since I donated to a charity in a Duggar's name. I need to think about which one would offend Jill and Derick most.

I can't imagine any Duggar ever doing anything to financially assist anyone outside of their immediate circle. Donations are something received by them. Profit above all is right up there with Jesus for them.

We don't know how philanthropic they are.  A lot of people, myself included, donate without wanting or expecting any publicity.  And it is no one else's business if/how much anyone donates.  That is a private decision that everyone has the freedom to decide for themself.

[quarks]

On 9/24/2023 at 2:02 PM, lascuba said:

 ALL memoirs are self-promotion tools. 

I'm not sure I can agree with this. Memoirs from Hollywood stars and the vast majority of contemporary politicians and/or people hoping to make the talk show circuit, sure. 

Others, maybe not.

I'm not at all sure we can classify, say, The Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, or Elie Weisel's Night, or Richard Wright's Black Boy, or even, on a more cheery note, Born Free, as self-promotion tools: the point of all of these was to draw attention to specific situations, not to specific authors. Other memoirs were written in hopes of recording specific cultures perceived as lost or dying, or major historical events, or major historical personages - not so much the authors themselves. And of course other memoirs have been published anonymously.

Can Jill's book be compared to any of these? Probably not - certainly not Night.  And I do think self-promotion - or at least, self-defense - was one of her goals here. I just don't think it was her only goal, or even her main one. She seems at least somewhat interested in drawing attention to the issues with reality TV shows (even if she's frustratingly vague on many filming details), which kinda sorta puts her closer to some of the memoirs I mentioned, and may have been what she told herself she was doing. She seems equally motivated in getting some sort of revenge for the In Touch story, something she describes as worse than the original molestation, even while admitting that one of its effects was to give her nightmares of the original molestation. Not nightmares of In Touch, but the molestation. 

And her ghostwriter wanted to present her as the protagonist of a story of good and evil, with Jill and Derick as the good heroes (Derick is even frequently described as a good man), with JB, surprisingly, as the main villain of the piece (surprisingly because this is a story that includes Josh Duggar), and with various side characters, including the supporting character with the mysterious motivations, Michelle, who shows up to the rescue at the last minute, just like a movie.

Jill's had a lifetime of having her life edited for entertainment purposes, so I'm not sure how much she even noticed how well the ghostwriter shaped her memoir into this narrative. But it did leave me noticing just how much was left unexplored/unexamined here - notably, everything that didn't fit into that narrative, like most of the missionary stuff and the full story of Derick's tweets.

[awaken]

Well, I’m about to dive into the audiobook. It’s just became available. There was a 22 week wait, the library obtained 45 more copies, and voila. I’m kind of fascinated but dreading it at the same time. 

[Absolom]

I tried the audio book, but 7 or so hours of Jill's voice wasn't go to work for me.  Luckily I also had the ebook on hold so switched to that one.  Jill definitely had some goals in writing the book and to me it seemed getting paid for it was on her list.  There was a bit of thirst for revenge, too.  I wondered if part of that came from Derick.   

[Vikitty]

My library originally ordered 12 copies, I was #40 in line. They've since then ordered another 16 copies (which haven't been released yet to the waitlist) and there are 152 people now in line! Hopefully I'll get to read it before the end of the year but my backlog is pretty long so I've got plenty to keep me busy until then.

I looked at Jinger's book for comparison and there are 53 in line for just 13 copies.

[Stevie Nicks]

That burger looks really good. Now I'm hungry. 

[Ohiopirate02]

I want to know what Jill is drinking there.  Something straight up in a coupe, but the color is what is throwing me.  I don't see Jill imbibing on any brown liquor.  

[Salacious Kitty]

Looks like DWreck's having a beer. Good for him. 

[Stevie Nicks]

30 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I want to know what Jill is drinking there.  Something straight up in a coupe, but the color is what is throwing me.  I don't see Jill imbibing on any brown liquor.  

Looks like iced tea at first. 

[all fall down]

1 hour ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Looks like DWreck's having a beer. Good for him. 

Oh no! Alert Jim Bob that Derick's alcoholism is still raging! /s 😂😂

[Salacious Kitty]

36 minutes ago, all fall down said:

Oh no! Alert Jim Bob that Derick's alcoholism is still raging! /s 😂😂

And Jill's piña colada addiction! 🤪

[GeeGolly]

29 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

And Jill's piña colada addiction! 🤪

Those damn pants and nose ring - slippery slope. 🙄

[SMama]

3 hours ago, Stevie Nicks said:

That burger looks really good. Now I'm hungry. 

I’m surprised they are seating across each other, like most normal couples.

[Salacious Kitty]

2 minutes ago, SMama said:

I’m surprised they are seating across each other, like most normal couples.

Looks like a two-top. No room to move those large chairs to one side. 😀

[the-grey-lady]

On 9/20/2023 at 11:46 AM, GeeGolly said:

I think you're right, Michelle didn't have a heart for kids or cooking.

Interesting choice, then, to have 19 kids who require nurturing, education, and food for survival.

(And about 2k other things the Duggars are incapable of providing or too lazy to provide.)

Edited September 27, 2023 by the-grey-lady

[oliviabenson]

No sitting side by side? How disappointing for them!

Maybe it’s plexus in Jill’s glass?! Haha 

Edited September 26, 2023 by oliviabenson

[MamaMax]

i came in kinda late here but IRT the mention of Jana being a Gothard girl -- I listened to the book and it did not occur to me that Jill was trying to say that Jana had been assaulted...just that JB & M  had been careless w her safety.  it doesn't surprise me that the other kids wouldn't have thought it was inappropriate - but the adults certainly should have!

Mentioning that Jana worked at IBLP for a while isn't saying she was victimized. I mean, are we asserting that 100% of his "girls" were effected? 

[Salacious Kitty]

8 minutes ago, MamaMax said:

i came in kinda late here but IRT the mention of Jana being a Gothard girl -- I listened to the book and it did not occur to me that Jill was trying to say that Jana had been assaulted...just that JB & M  had been careless w her safety.  it doesn't surprise me that the other kids wouldn't have thought it was inappropriate - but the adults certainly should have!

Mentioning that Jana worked at IBLP for a while isn't saying she was victimized. I mean, are we asserting that 100% of his "girls" were effected? 

Gothard's favorite "girls" were the ones who had histories of abuse. We don't know what Gothard knew or didn't know about the Duggars, but Jana was never a victim, thank goodness. 

New interview from Entertainment Tonight.

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Salacious Kitty